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Who were the Magi?

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32785
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Topic: Who were the Magi?
Posted By: kingskid
Subject: Who were the Magi?
Date Posted: 07 January 2015 at 10:39am
I find it very interesting and intriguing that wise men from the East came to present gifts and worship the Christ Child.  Since the Babe was about two years old or so when they found Him, I'm wondering if there is any other religion that has in their tradition or history the sojourn of the Magi?  For them to follow the star for two years looking for the Saviour of mankind makes me wonder how they knew about Him....


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kingskid



Replies:
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 January 2015 at 9:55am
I suspect that this story was invention like so many others in the NT.

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La Ilaha IllAllah


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 January 2015 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

I suspect that this story was invention like so many others in the NT.

You may be right, Abu Loren. It does sound a bit similar to some of the pagan stories that were floating around near that time.

In a way, it could be kind of like the story of the wall holding back Gog and Magog, that allegedly was built by Alexander. Just as the author of the Quran was repeating and slightly tweaking a tall tale that had been around since the first century, the author of Matthew could have been doing the same to a pagan story.

Or the story in the Gospel of Matthew could have been true. We will never know for sure whether there was a group of Magi who followed a star.

We do know however that there is no wall that is holding back a nation of people who will number in the trillions, and are separated from the rest of the world by a metal structure between two mountains. 


Posted By: abc 123
Date Posted: 08 January 2015 at 11:48pm

Dear Kingskid

Do you know how a Christian expose him self as ignorant in his own religion?
and instantly, lose's any worthy attention to his religion, let alone to him.

And i'm speaking here generally, for we even have of the likes among Muslims.

It's When they speak of there religion and of themselves, or judge other religions and others, in a provoking manner.


I'm sure, as I am of Islam, not in true Christianity nor in the teachings of prophet jesses, peace be upon him, but due respect and regard to none Christians and in the manner of preaching to them.


In the Quran, God teaches his final and last messenger Mohammed (p&pbuh) and his followers, what translates to the meaning of :
(Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and gentle sermon, and argue with them even in a gentler manner.)
and in another verse :
([O Muhammad],and if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you.)


As of the Magi story you mention, haven't herded it before, and .. I could find it possible.
Specially, when there's a lot of events and stories of the like and same content that took place around the time of prophet Mohammed (p&pbuh) birth and childhood.





Posted By: kingskid
Date Posted: 09 January 2015 at 10:56am
Abu Loren wrote:  I suspect that this story was invention like so many others in the NT.

KK:  You mean there aren't any wise men at all in the Quran?  Well, there you go!Wink


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kingskid


Posted By: kingskid
Date Posted: 11 January 2015 at 7:28am
Dear ABC, what is provocative to one person is not necessarily provocative to another.  A sense of humor, whether Christian or Muslim, can be more effective than dogmatism.  You have your own way of communicating, but you can't expect to impose it upon others.  That is the biggest obstacle I see for Muslims:  their rigid, autocratic belief system that verily is not tolerant of other religions.  I was not able to get a topic posted here, in an interfaith forum, on problems within the Quran.  I assume it is because the moderators don't believe there is a problem with it, yet the moderators allow provocative comments about Christians and the Bible, with commenters calling the Bible corrupted, lies and deceptive, and all manner of blasphemy against Yeshua, the Son of God.  In a truly open and fair discussion, equal treatment would be afforded to all viewpoints.Confused


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kingskid


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 January 2015 at 9:56am
The only blasphemy is to call 'Yeshua' the Son of God and worship him as God.

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La Ilaha IllAllah


Posted By: kingskid
Date Posted: 14 January 2015 at 12:23pm
"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son."  (I John 2:22)


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kingskid


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 January 2015 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

The only blasphemy is to call 'Yeshua' the Son of God and worship him as God.

Originally posted by kingskid kingskid wrote:

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son."  (I John 2:22)

Greetings Abu Loren,

So when you deny it, to a Christian, it is you who are the blasphemer.
Can a Christian speak as freely about Muhammad as you feel free to speak against Christ?

asalaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart


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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 15 January 2015 at 9:43am
Originally posted by kingskid kingskid wrote:

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son."  (I John 2:22)


Who wrote that? Not Isa Ibn Maryam (Alayhi Salaam).


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La Ilaha IllAllah


Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 16 January 2015 at 3:51am
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

Originally posted by kingskid kingskid wrote:

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son."  (I John 2:22)


Who wrote that? Not Isa Ibn Maryam (Alayhi Salaam).
Then who wrote this the Quran is only copied from Jewis and Christian folklore.
 

Quran

So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran - Quran   http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/019-qmt.php#019.022 - 19:22 ]

Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew chapter 20

And it came to pass on the third day of their journey, while they were walking, that the blessed Mary was fatigued by the excessive heat of the sun in the desert; and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: Let me rest a little under the shade of this tree. Joseph therefore made haste, and led her to the palm, and made her come down from her beast. And as the blessed Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it full of fruit, and said to Joseph: I wish it were possible to get some of the fruit of this palm. And Joseph said to her: I wonder that thou sayest this, when thou seest how high the palm tree is; and that thou thinkest of eating of its fruit. I am thinking more of the want of water, because the skins are now empty, and we have none wherewith to refresh ourselves and our cattle. Then the child Jesus, with a joyful countenance, reposing in the bosom of His mother, said to the palm: O tree, bend thy branches, and refresh my mother with thy fruit. And immediately at these words the palm bent its top down to the very feet of the blessed Mary; and they gathered from it fruit, with which they were all refreshed. And after they had gathered all its fruit, it remained bent down, waiting the order to rise from Him who bad commanded it to stoop. Then Jesus said to it: Raise thyself, O palm tree, and be strong, and be the companion of my trees, which are in the paradise of my Father; and open from thy roots a vein of water which has been hid in the earth, and let the waters flow, so that we may be satisfied from thee. And it rose up immediately, and at its root there began to come forth a spring of water exceedingly clear and cool and sparkling. And when they saw the spring of water, they rejoiced with great joy, and were satisfied, themselves and all their cattle and their beasts. Wherefore they gave thanks to God.


Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 16 January 2015 at 7:08am
Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

Originally posted by kingskid kingskid wrote:

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son."  (I John 2:22)


Who wrote that? Not Isa Ibn Maryam (Alayhi Salaam).
 

On the wall of the temple was an inscription about Balaam the prophet, the same character that we know from the book of Numbers. The angels announcing the birth of the Messiah to the shepherds and the wise men following the star to the little town of Bethlehem where they found the Son of God lying in a manger. 

But there's a lot more to the story. What led the wise men to follow a Jewish prophecy? 

Few Saw The Signs 

The birth of a baby -- a small event that became the turning point in world history. 2,000 years ago, the Messiah arrived on earth, but only a few people saw the signs. 

"Where is he who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East." 

Matthew 2:2 

The only people who see the sign in the stars of the night are the people who are looking for it. The ones who saw the sign were wise men from the East. Their search for the King of the Jews brought them to the palace of Herod the Great. 

The irony of course, is that they have seen a star that they associate with the rising of a King over Jacob and this takes us back to the book of Numbers, chapter 24 and the prophecy of Balaam the prophet 

So who exactly were the wise men who called on King Herod? Where did they come from? And why did they seem to know Jewish prophecy better than the Jews? 

3000-Year-Old Inscription Discovered 

The answers may lie in a 3,000-year-old inscription discovered in Jordan. In 1967, archaeologists found the remains of an ancient temple in a village called Deir Alla. 

Balaam, the son of Beor. visited by an angel and scolded by a donkey. A freelance prophet hired to curse the nation of Israel. 

But instead, he prophesied the coming of the Jewish messiah by the star of Jacob. 

"A star shall come out of Jacob; a scepter shall rise out of Israel."

Numbers 24:17  

Only small fragments of the Balaam inscription have survived. It's written in Aramaic and it reveals a vision of judgment from the gods of Canaan. 

"[It's] totally different context archaeologically with a story about him that is not the biblical story of the Dead Sea Scrolls. 

"But it shows us that his reputation as a professional foreteller or prophet was known throughout the eastern Jordan or Trans-Jordan." 

Balaam is one of the few Old Testament prophets with archaeological proof of his existence. 

"I think it's just exciting. "It lends plausibility in one sense to Matthew's story, because the people who are familiar with Balaam's prophecies are people who are coming from that side of the Jordan River." 

Herod's Secret Meeting With The Wise Men 

Balaam's prophecy led the wise men to look for a star and the star led them first to Jerusalem. 

The tower of David -- the spot where Herod's palace once stood. A place historians have called wondrous beyond words. 

It was here that Herod summoned the wise men to a secret meeting.

"He has to ask his counselors and his advisors to search the scriptures so that he can find out which prophecy they're talking about while they who are foreigners and gentiles know the prophecy of Balaam," he said. 

Herod's men found a 700-year-old clue from the prophet Micah. A passage that led the wise men to the birthplace of the Messiah. 

"But you, Bethlehem, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel.

Micah 5:2-5

They went to Bethlehem and found Joseph, Mary and Jesus. They brought gold, frankincense and myrhh.  Gifts that were described by the prophets, hundreds of years earlier. 

"Nations shall come to your light, and kings, shall bring gold and frankincense."

Isaiah 60:2 - 6

Herod ordered a massacre in Bethlehem. Every male under the age of two was killed. An event that was prophesied by Jeremiah more than 600 years before it happened.

"A voice was heard in Ramah, Rachel weeping for her children, refusing to be comforted for her children, because they are no more."

Jeremiah 31:15

Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt, a journey predicted by the prophet Hosea and fulfilled in the Gospel of Matthew. 

"Out of Egypt I called my son."

Hosea 11: 1 

"Hosea 11:1 says when Israel was a child, and I loved him. and out of Egypt have i called my son. "Some of the rabbis say Matthew misquoted Hosea 11 terribly. Nonsense. "What was his point? His assumption was that his audience would know the whole verse when Israel was a child I loved him, out of Egypt have i called my son," he continued. "As it happened to Israel, it happened to the Messiah. You have this pattern all over the scriptures."



Posted By: kingskid
Date Posted: 16 January 2015 at 8:20am
Abu Loren said, "Who wrote that? Not Isa Ibn Maryam (Alayhi Salaam)."

You are correct, it was not Yeshua; most likely it was His closest apostle, John, the author of the Gospel of John.  The NT has no writings of Yeshua, but consists of His words and the narratives of those who followed Him.


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kingskid


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 17 January 2015 at 2:50am
Originally posted by kingskid kingskid wrote:

Abu Loren said, "Who wrote that? Not Isa Ibn Maryam (Alayhi Salaam)."

You are correct, it was not Yeshua; most likely it was His closest apostle, John, the author of the Gospel of John.  The NT has no writings of Yeshua, but consists of His words and the narratives of those who followed Him.


Well there you go, so how can one trust the NT?


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La Ilaha IllAllah


Posted By: kingskid
Date Posted: 19 January 2015 at 10:20am
Did allah write the Quran?  No?  Did Muhammad write the Quran or did his scribe or others?  How do you know if anything in the Quran or hadiths was allah's word?  You don't?  Well, then, there you go, so how can one trust the Quran? 

There's been no claim that Yeshua wrote anything, other than what He wrote in the sand when certain Jews wanted to stone a woman for adultery, and we can only guess at what He wrote. 


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kingskid


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 20 January 2015 at 10:00am
Originally posted by kingskid kingskid wrote:

Did allah write the Quran?  No?  Did Muhammad write the Quran or did his scribe or others?  How do you know if anything in the Quran or hadiths was allah's word?  You don't?  Well, then, there you go, so how can one trust the Quran? 

There's been no claim that Yeshua wrote anything, other than what He wrote in the sand when certain Jews wanted to stone a woman for adultery, and we can only guess at what He wrote. 


I'm not asking you to believe nor am I able to convert you but the Qur'an is truly from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. This Final Revelations was brought down to Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) by the Archangel Gabriel (Alayhi Salaam) and was recited to him over a twenty three year period. As Prophet Muahammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) couldn't read or write he had to memorise what he was given. Consequently all of his companions and many of the Muslims at the time also memorised the Qur'an word for word and it was decided to write them down in a book form. It was always been intended that the Qur'an would be a book because Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala called it a book.

For salvation's sake I urge you to read a translation of the Qur'an with an honest and open heart and ask God Almighty to guide you and In Shaa Allah you will recognise the truth.

I don't have the power nor any human being have the power to convert another person to the religion of God Almighty. Only He guides whom He wills. Also there is no compulsion in religion meaning that nobody can force you to accept the religion of God Almighty. One only becomes a Muslim if he or she loves Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and His final messenger more than him/herself.


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La Ilaha IllAllah



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