Plants verses animals
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Topic: Plants verses animals
Posted By: biggerjohn
Subject: Plants verses animals
Date Posted: 26 March 2015 at 5:04pm
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Plants verses Animals (part 1) What are the factors or stimuli at play with regard to how �natural selection� works? My list so far consists of: environment, behavior, predators, food sources, social influence, life span, instinct, cognitive thought, population, genetic complexity (or simplicity), *method of reproduction, and learning ability. What else am I missing? Always sincere�. sometimes serious, John B *= added 3-27-15 ------------- |
Replies:
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 27 March 2015 at 1:44am
BiggerJohn
Take for example intelligence ( or cognitive thought/learning ability as you express it). In terms of survival these things are very costly. Our brain confiscates about 20% of our energy consumption. From a survival point of view a brain as ours is only useful if it allows us to gather more energy (food) than the (additional) consumption it requires to run. So typical traits for enhancing the "likelihood of survival (of the own species)" are: a) Improvements in "food collection techniques": like reaching food that was unattainable before (Giraffes) or becoming a predator/omnivore. Equally, being able to digest food that was indigestible/toxic earlier. b) Increased ability to escape predators (be them macroscopic like wild animals or microscopic like bacterias). c) Increased "ability to please" a (fe-)male of the own species. This is called sexual selection. d) Increased ability to resist or rather to adapt to outer strain (heat/cold, famines, UV-radiation, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/11044316/Tibetans-developed-genetic-mutation-to-help-them-survive-on-roof-of-the-world.html - lack of oxygen in high areas etc). e) Selection in an "artificial" context (because there is a selector favouring a certain trait) : Wild apples -> modern apple trees, Woolfs->dogs etc. I guess there are more, but this is just to show the principle. These criteria always apply in a given (ecological) context. Being a tree is costly in terms of minerals and carbon but it allows you to collect sun light literally on top of the others. If nobody else around grows high you have no reason to be a tree. The main driving mechanism is in the end (local) competition for limited resources (minerals, Carbon and sun-light in this case). In general, acquiring a new trait has a price and goes very often along with specialization and other trait(s) becoming obsolete/lost: Our anatomy (i.e the hand which evolved towards a skillful haptic "device") doesn't allow us to swing our way through the trees anymore. Or take the olm [Proteus anguinus] which adapted to caves where nutrients are scarce. It can survive for years without food but it also has eyes that don't see anymore. The whales finding food in water and having residues of legs that are of no use anymore and so on.. (btw. Why should a intelligent designer hide legs in the whales ?) Hope this helps: Airmano |
What are the factors or stimuli at play with regard to how �natural selection� works?
Posted By: biggerjohn
Date Posted: 30 March 2015 at 12:32pm
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Thanks for the information. Good stuff. You've given me much to think about... fortunately my systems has evolved enough that I should be able to digest your words with little gastric difficulty. Always sincere.... sometimes serious, John B ------------- |
Posted By: biggerjohn
Date Posted: 01 April 2015 at 5:00pm
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I think that you and I are closer to one another than you might suppose. Your list a) Improvements in "food collection techniques" b) Increased ability to escape predators c) Increased "ability to please" a (fe-)male of the own species. This is called sexual selection. d) Increased ability to resist or rather to adapt to outer strain (heat/cold, famines, UV-radiation, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/11044316/Tibetans-developed-genetic-mutation-to-help-them-survive-on-roof-of-the-world.html - in high areas etc). e) Selection in an "artificial" context (because there is a selector favoring a certain trait) : Wild apples -> modern apple trees, Wolfs->dogs etc. My original list: 1) Environment - This covers a lot: underwater, tropic, arid, or mountainous terrain. Also, large or small numbers of species/predators competing, etc., all of these relate to environmental conditions which can greatly impact development. (Relative to points D & E) 2) Behavior - This too encompasses much. Essentially it is all about responses and actions to environment, threats, needs, and more. (Relative to point C) 3) Predators � Eat or be eaten, fight or flight, this is all about either being a predator or escaping/fighting one. (Relative to point B) 4) Food sources � Variety, abundance (or lack thereof) ease or difficulty gathering. (Relative to points A, D, and E) 5) Social influence � solitary verses group survival. Bee hives, ant colonies, dolphin and whale pods, lion prides � species grouped together with common interests and common aims have numerous advantages. (Relative to points A, B, C, D, E) 6) Life span � Shorter life spans require a robust reproductive method in order to survive. (Relative to points D & E) 7) Instinct � This one is a bit hard to define. Basically many life forms demonstrate behaviors that appear to be �natural� (not taught or learned). (Relative to point B) 8) Cognitive thought � The ability to make decisions, think, choose, respond, problem solve, etc. (Relative to points A, B, C, & D) 9) Population � Strength in numbers. Especially among perceptively weaker organisms (fish, insects, rodents, smaller mammals, etc.) Large numbers increase their chances of survival. Too high of a population poses problems as well. (Relative to points B, D, & E) 10) Genetic complexity (simplicity) � The simpler the organism the quicker it is likely to change, adapt, reproduce, or evolve. When it comes to plant life, it doesn�t get simpler than Green Algae and Grass; two organisms that are extremely old, reproduce quickly, and are very capable of enduring for a long time to come. (Relative to point C) 11) Reproductive method (this item had been added the next day, presumably after you had submitted your response) � From single cell organisms splitting to seeds, eggs, and sexual reproduction, each method has its own advantages. (Relative to points C & E) 12) Learning ability � This one ties heavily into Behavior, social influence, and cognitive thought. The ability to learn, and the ability to pass on knowledge cannot be overrated. (Relative to points A & B) This list is still very much a work in progress; and there is much more I wish to say regarding behavior, social influence, cognitive thought, and learning ability. Hopefully I will be able to get to it by Friday.
Thank you again for your response. Always sincere�. sometimes serious, John B ------------- |
Posted By: biggerjohn
Date Posted: 02 April 2015 at 4:58pm
Plants verses Animals (part 2) The significance of this list of factors is simple: while the effects of all of these things are relatively evident within the animal kingdom; they are not necessarily so in regards to plants. Particularly, plant life has no cognitive thought, no ability to consciously behave on its own, no ability to learn, and no social or familial interaction. How does �natural selection� work within the plant world? This by the way is not a rhetorical question� in fact, here is my own attempt to answer the question: Tide pools � micro ecologies in and of themselves � I imagine that the first life forms to exist on land came from tide pools. Given how plants are the primary food source of so many other life forms, plants must have been the first things to break the surface of the water and take root on land (why would anything else emerge unless there was already an established food source available). Grass was likely the first plant life to take hold; it is simple yet hardy, and spreads itself quickly. The soil, made rich by the tide pools, combined with sun light and an abundance of carbon dioxide, would have given rise to rapid plant growth (growth more rapid than one would see in animals at least). Once the plants had taken hold the next things to emerge would likely have been insects. All of that plant life and no competition they would have exploded in this environment. Which explosion would have drawn out amphibians, reptiles, and the like. Between these groups, plants now had an even better means of spreading, cross pollinating, and growing. Over time soil became richer in organic material, plants grew stronger, thicker, taller, and more complex; and that growth spurred all other life forms to do the same. I recognize that all of this is relatively simple in presentation, and certainly there are others who know more, I�m not exactly a botanist. Nevertheless, over all, this is how I imagine life on land could have started. That said, I must now confess that while I was contemplating and theorizing over these issues I could not help but think to myself �This is how I would have done it if I were the one creating it.� NO ONE NEEDS TO WORRY�. I DO NOT BELIEVE I AM GOD� it is just that I very much believe in �Intelligent design�� I very much believe in God. Always sincere�. sometimes serious, John B ------------- |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 07 April 2015 at 12:05am
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We have the rather naive idea about the peace loving world of plants. In reality there is a merciless battle going on in every square (cubic) meter of soil with plants intoxicating each other, sending parasites to the neighbour, stealing water and nutrients from the other and chemical communication systems between trees (of the same species) to warn against invaders (bugs) and so on. May be this http://www.hgtv.com/design/outdoor-design/landscaping-and-hardscaping/killer-plants - Web Page gives you an idea.
Now coming to "intelligent design". The question is where do you stop ? Does god fiddle around with our DNA ? Is he deliberately killing certain species to make them disappear ? If yes - how? And worse: why ? Or is he just the inventor of rules and now everything runs such as the vicious atheists claim ? Airmano |
Posted By: biggerjohn
Date Posted: 13 April 2015 at 12:16pm
I was right when I was a kid!!!! I told my mom that vegetables were EVIL!!!!
 Thanks for the info.
As for your questions: Please give me a few days to formulate a response.
Always sincere.... sometimes serious,
John B ------------- |
Posted By: lindseynicole
Date Posted: 03 July 2015 at 3:23am
| This forum is about plant and animals, this is a great fact that animals and plants both are the essential species for maintaining the balance of the environment. |
Posted By: long123
Date Posted: 30 July 2015 at 10:59pm
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The things you quote haven't got a lot to do with the principle of natural selection.
Take for example intelligence ( or cognitive thought/learning ability as you express it). In terms of survival these things are very costly. |