Interfaith Dialogue - Is Jesus God?

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Is Jesus God?

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Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
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Topic: Is Jesus God?

Posted By: Abu Dujana
Subject: Is Jesus God?
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 10:42am

One of the greatest debates, where Sheikh Ahmed Deedat and Pastor Stanley Sjoberg was discussing one of the most important issues in Christianity... it's really a great debate and worth seeing .. don't miss it!

http://pdfen.blogspot.com/2015/06/is-jesus-god.html - Download Video

Replies:

Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 27 June 2015 at 3:20pm

Abu Dujana wrote:

One should not make too much of such observations, but it is nevertheless interesting to note the timing of events.

6 April 1996 (Good Friday) Deedat gave a highly offensive talk in Sydney, mocking the death and resurrection of Jesus

3 May 1996 Four weeks later, Friday afternoon in Durban (late night in Sydney), Deedat is cut down by a stroke and remains totally paralyzed.

11 July 2005 Monday, 10 AM German and South African time Answering Islam published the story behind Deedat's downfall.8 August 2005 Four weeks later, Monday morning, Deedat died.

Along with many other Christians, we have prayed for Mr. Deedat to repent, to turn to Jesus, and to be healed. Deedat has certainly had more occasions than most people to learn about God's true message and offer of salvation, and God has given him much time to respond. Yet, he persisted in his rejection of the Gospel.

"Say to them, �As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?�" Ezekiel 33:11 God commanded Ezekiel to speak this warning to Israel in its disobedience, but the heart of God is the same today. He still desires that sinners repent instead of dying in their sins and perish. Yet the other is equally true when people persist in their rejection of God's message:"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." Galatians 6:7

In the case of Ahmed Deedat, God has shown both his patience and his punishment.

Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 28 June 2015 at 3:02am

Allah is one, he is eternal, he is neither born nor give birth, there is nothing like him.what and why happened to Mr Deedat Allah only knows,Jesus Christ (pbuh ) was one of the mightiest messengers of Allah.

Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 28 June 2015 at 6:24pm

NABA wrote:

Allah is one, he is eternal, he is neither born nor give birth, there is nothing like him.what and why happened to Mr Deedat Allah only knows,Jesus Christ (pbuh ) was one of the mightiest messengers of Allah.

Yes nobody wanted to listen what Jesus said and time is running out like in the days of Noah.

Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 29 June 2015 at 2:36am

Peacemaker:
In the case of Ahmed Deedat, God has shown both his patience and his punishment.

I'd rather call it his "randomness".

Airmano

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The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")

Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 31 July 2015 at 9:01am

One should not make too much of such observations, but it is nevertheless interesting to note the timing of events.

6 April 1996     (Good Friday) Deedat gave a highly offensive talk in Sydney, mocking the death and resurrection of Jesus

3 May 1996     Four weeks later, Friday afternoon in Durban (late night in Sydney), Deedat is cut down by a stroke and remains totally paralyzed.

11 July 2005 Monday, 10 AM German and South African time Answering Islam published the story behind Deedat's downfall.8 August 2005     Four weeks later, Monday morning, Deedat died.

Your observations would do credit to an evangelist! But I must inform you that you are incensed only because the late Mr Deedat did not accept Jesus PBUH as God.

I have heard him many times and I know he never insulted any Prophet of God.

The stroke he suffered and his death many years later prove nothing. Certainly not what you claim.

Along with many other Christians, we have prayed for Mr. Deedat to repent, to turn to Jesus, and to be healed. Deedat has certainly had more occasions than most people to learn about God's true message and offer of salvation, and God has given him much time to respond. Yet, he persisted in his rejection of the Gospel.

"Say to them, �As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?�" Ezekiel 33:11 God commanded Ezekiel to speak this warning to Israel in its disobedience, but the heart of God is the same today. He still desires that sinners repent instead of dying in their sins and perish. Yet the other is equally true when people persist in their rejection of God's message:"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." Galatians 6:7

In the case of Ahmed Deedat, God has shown both his patience and his punishment.

Mr Deedat was not a wicked man. Yes, he was an outspoken scholar and a great debator. He often won debates against some of the greatest evangelists of his times. Which included Jimmy Swaggart. Swaggart who was caught with a prostitute a few year after his debate with Mr Deedat. I bet you did not know that?

God Almighty alone knows why Mr Deedat was struck with a stroke and why he never fully recovered. By any standard he did a great service to Islam.

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Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 31 July 2015 at 9:58am

Peace maker wrote:

Abu Dujana wrote:

One should not make too much of such observations, but it is nevertheless interesting to note the timing of events.

6 April 1996 (Good Friday) Deedat gave a highly offensive talk in Sydney, mocking the death and resurrection of Jesus

3 May 1996 Four weeks later, Friday afternoon in Durban (late night in Sydney), Deedat is cut down by a stroke and remains totally paralyzed.

11 July 2005 Monday, 10 AM German and South African time Answering Islam published the story behind Deedat's downfall.8 August 2005 Four weeks later, Monday morning, Deedat died.

In the case of Ahmed Deedat, God has shown both his patience and his punishment.

When I die there will have been some posts I have made which mock the religious mind. Will have deied God recently.

And?

Did this man do this for the first time and then die or was it his habit of doing it and he had been doing if for many years?

Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 01 August 2015 at 12:03am

The Saint wrote:

One should not make too much of such observations, but it is nevertheless interesting to note the timing of events.

6 April 1996     (Good Friday) Deedat gave a highly offensive talk in Sydney, mocking the death and resurrection of Jesus

3 May 1996     Four weeks later, Friday afternoon in Durban (late night in Sydney), Deedat is cut down by a stroke and remains totally paralyzed.

11 July 2005 Monday, 10 AM German and South African time Answering Islam published the story behind Deedat's downfall.8 August 2005     Four weeks later, Monday morning, Deedat died.

Your observations would do credit to an evangelist! But I must inform you that you are incensed only because the late Mr Deedat did not accept Jesus PBUH as God.

I have heard him many times and I know he never insulted any Prophet of God.

The stroke he suffered and his death many years later prove nothing. Certainly not what you claim.

Along with many other Christians, we have prayed for Mr. Deedat to repent, to turn to Jesus, and to be healed. Deedat has certainly had more occasions than most people to learn about God's true message and offer of salvation, and God has given him much time to respond. Yet, he persisted in his rejection of the Gospel.

"Say to them, �As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?�" Ezekiel 33:11 God commanded Ezekiel to speak this warning to Israel in its disobedience, but the heart of God is the same today. He still desires that sinners repent instead of dying in their sins and perish. Yet the other is equally true when people persist in their rejection of God's message:"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." Galatians 6:7

In the case of Ahmed Deedat, God has shown both his patience and his punishment.

Mr Deedat was not a wicked man. Yes, he was an outspoken scholar and a great debator. He often won debates against some of the greatest evangelists of his times. Which included Jimmy Swaggart. Swaggart who was caught with a prostitute a few year after his debate with Mr Deedat. I bet you did not know that?

God Almighty alone knows why Mr Deedat was struck with a stroke and why he never fully recovered. By any standard he did a great service to Islam.

You musn't pay to much attention to this so CALLED TV EVANGILISTS CAUSE THERE IS NO PLACE IN HEAVEN FOR A RICH MAN THEY ARE ONLY WORSHIPING MONEY AND CARNAL THINGS THIER WORDS ARE WINDS BLOWING NO WHERE, LIKE THE POPE RIDING IN A POPE MOBILE WHY ARE THEY NOT TRUSTING IN GOD THEY HAVE GOT ALARMS, SECURITY FENCES AND SECURITY GAURDS WHAT IS GOING ON WHERE IS THIER FAITH?

Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 10 August 2015 at 5:32am

I knew there are lot of so called Christian preachers who preach on TV who use God's name to make money and pretend to be holy but why didn't Allah healed Mr Deedat? If he wasn't wicked man if he had all the faith then Allah should have heal him.

That is what you think. Allah SWT thought differently. But neither did he paralyze Mr Swaggart?

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Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 12 August 2015 at 12:04am

If you read the Injil you will see Jesus was more than just a messenger. He was The Christ Messiah -God The Son.

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 22 August 2015 at 11:24pm

What did Ahmad Deedat say that mocked the bible?????

Posted By: whirlingmerc
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 6:42pm

I would say, yes Jesus is and for a number of reasons.

One being that the prophets said about 25 times that there were many false shepherds but God himself will be the shepherd of His people

and then one of the prophets said 'and I will take David and make him the shepherd of my people' (figuratively Jesus, the greater David to come)

For many similar reasons I would conclude that yes, Jesus is the eternally generated image of God's idea of Himself whoo is also a person and the Holy Spirit is the eternally generated love between the Father and on who is also a person

With that view of the Trinity, the Athenasian Trinity, there is majestry, power, love and community from one end of eternity to the other. Without it majesty and power are primary and love more secondary.

Am I wrong?

Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 16 May 2016 at 5:09am

Jesus PBUH was a great Prophet of God Almighty. And trinity is a big hoax and even illogical.

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Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 16 May 2016 at 11:43am

The Saint wrote:

Jesus PBUH was a great Prophet of God Almighty. And trinity is a big hoax and even illogical.

How can the bible be a hoax and the Quran be the truth then some where down the line someone has made a big mistake cause the quran was also writen by human hands.

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.

He is the stone the builders reject, which has become the cornerstone.

Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son , and you give Him the name Jesus because He will save His people from sins.

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world�the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life�comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. 1 john 2:15-17

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God�s one and only Son. John 3:16-18

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28

Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 8:24am

How can the bible be a hoax and the Quran be the truth then some where down the line someone has made a big mistake cause the quran was also writen by human hands.

It is not how God Almighty revealed His messages to mankind, instead it is about safe-keeping and preservation of His word. Bible today, is not even seen by most Christians today, as the literal word of God. What you refer to as the Bible is a compendium of books written by men and acknowledged as such. Some books are anonymous. While there are a large number of books that were left out of the Bible because they were thought to be apochrypha by a pagan king. The Quran otoh, is a direct revelation to Muhammad PBUH and it was recorded as soon as a part of it wae revealed. Then, it was most uniquely learnt by heart by men who are called huffaz. There have always been hundreds and thousands and currently millions of huffaz who have secured the Quran in their bosoms.

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Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 17 May 2016 at 8:53pm

The Saint wrote:

How can the bible be a hoax and the Quran be the truth then some where down the line someone has made a big mistake cause the quran was also writen by human hands.

It is not how God Almighty revealed His messages to mankind, instead it is about safe-keeping and preservation of His word. Bible today, is not even seen by most Christians today, as the literal word of God. What you refer to as the Bible is a compendium of books written by men and acknowledged as such. Some books are anonymous. While there are a large number of books that were left out of the Bible because they were thought to be apochrypha by a pagan king. The Quran otoh, is a direct revelation to Muhammad PBUH and it was recorded as soon as a part of it wae revealed. Then, it was most uniquely learnt by heart by men who are called huffaz. There have always been hundreds and thousands and currently millions of huffaz who have secured the Quran in their bosoms.

Muhammad's first so called revelation wasn't even written in first surah in the Quran Surah 96, 96 surahs after his other so called revelations this show you how bad the Quran was compilled and you want to point fingers to the bible.

The direct revelations to Muhammad came out of his own brains and other things that he have borrowed from the jews christains and mostly all islam rituals was taken from pre-islamic pagan rituals.

His first so called revelation was reveal to him in the month ramadan which was already and established pagan ritual the month of ramadan in which the pagans fast from dusk to dawn,pray five times a day and circumbulant the kabaa seven times,throw the devil with stones and done the tawaf this was done by the pagans long before Muhammad's time,He used the pagan example as a foundation to build his own religion and strenghten his diplomatic ties with the pagans.

This rituals was never practiced by the jews or the christians.

Posted By: The Saint
Date Posted: 24 May 2016 at 8:53am

I told you the Quran was written by human hands, or it does not even matter who wrote it it is not from God it is from Muhammad and Allah was Muhammad and he was Allah he made his own Allah and misled the Arabs by telling them he received the revelation from the angel Gabriel what a big liar he was,Gabriel wasn't near Muhammad there was no prooof of Gabriel but Muhammad himself.

How do you know all this? Do you have any credible proof? How do you know that there is no Allah and how did you deduce that Allah SWT, Creator and Muhammad PBUH, created are one and the same?

It is easy to make accusations but proving them is very, very difficult. However, I am giving you a chance to prove your accusations.

Muhammad's first so called revelation wasn't even written in first surah in the Quran Surah 96, 96 surahs after his other so called revelations this show you how bad the Quran was compilled and you want to point fingers to the bible.

No, this actually proves a miracle. The Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years and it was at random. Later on Gabriel put the revelations in proper divinely ordained order. The miracle is that the revelation was made to a non-literate person. Yet, the order of the revelation was corrected and the present order created, which the Prophet PBUH could not have done by himself!

Every revelation, whenever it happened was immediately dictated to writers who wrote it on any material available.

The direct revelations to Muhammad came out of his own brains and other things that he have borrowed from the jews christains and mostly all islam rituals was taken from pre-islamic pagan rituals.

Once again, I shall have to ask you to prove your allegations. Your suggestion that the Quran may have been copied from the Bible or information was obtained from Jews and Christians to write the Quran is absurd. Because the Quran criticizes the Bible. It differs with the Bible widely. And today science has proved the Bible wrong and the Quran correct.

His first so called revelation was reveal to him in the month ramadan which was already and established pagan ritual the month of ramadan in which the pagans fast from dusk to dawn,pray five times a day and circumbulant the kabaa seven times,throw the devil with stones and done the tawaf this was done by the pagans long before Muhammad's time,

Let me say right at the beginning that Islam is not a new religion. In fact it is the only religion that Allah SWT revealed. It began with Adam PBUH and was completed by Muhammad. Therefore, it is very likely that Muhammad PBUH took some prayers and rituals from his worthy predecessors. Although there is a rebuttal to Ramadan's pagan origin allegation at_
Please go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ramadan#Ramadans_Alleged_Pagan_Origins for your allegations about Ramadan's pagan origins rebuttal.

He used the pagan example as a foundation to build his own religion and strenghten his diplomatic ties with the pagans.
This rituals was never practiced by the jews or the christians.

Both jews and christians were ordered to fast. You just seem to be ignorant. Go to https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/fasting.html

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Invite [all] to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

Posted By: 6wlds2go
Date Posted: 25 May 2016 at 4:03am

Peace maker wrote:

why didn't Allah healed Mr Deedat? If he wasn't wicked man if he had all the faith then Allah should have heal him.

According to his bio he was born in 1918. That made him 78 when he fell sick.

Also he was very active theologian since he was very young, with millions of people have seen his debate, with style and charisma and they admired him.

Fell sick after almost 50 years of activity with countless of converts that is small price to pay, you agree?

Posted By: rmujaahida
Date Posted: 26 May 2016 at 1:11pm

Asalam Alaykum

the sheik was 87 years old when he had his stroke, this fact alone should be the deciding factor of the validity of divine intervention....lol

Umm what should further not be forgotten is the lecture which supported the truth that jesus never claimed to be the son of god...

Christianity lost the arguement

Posted By: simple
Date Posted: 21 August 2016 at 12:16pm

Funny He forgot to mention that. Jesus said His Father was greater than all, and that He and His Father were one and the same.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 24 October 2016 at 9:03pm

Yes, God is one and Jesus is His Word!

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 24 October 2016 at 9:09pm

6wlds2go wrote:

Peace maker wrote:

why didn't Allah healed Mr Deedat? If he wasn't wicked man if he had all the faith�then�Allah should have heal him.

According to his bio he was born in 1918. That made him 78 when he fell sick. Also he was very active theologian since he was very young, with millions of people have seen his debate, with style and charisma and they admired him.Fell sick after almost 50 years of activity with countless of converts that is small price to pay, you agree?

No, God doesn't charge us to serve him. Deedat would often quote in Arabic that "Truth smashes the brains of falsehood" before his debates. Maybe it is possible he said something that God wasn't happy with.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 24 October 2016 at 9:13pm

rmujaahida wrote:

Asalam Alaykum

the sheik was 87 years old when he had his stroke, this fact alone should be the deciding factor of the validity of divine intervention....lol

Umm what should further not be forgotten is the lecture which supported the truth that jesus never claimed to be the son of god... [IMG]smileys/smiley18.gif" align="middle" /> Christianity lost the arguement

Christianity lost the argument? What argument? We don't argue this. We just accept it as truth. God said it we believe it and that settles it with no argument. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God by calling God His father, and God verbally claimed Jesus was His son; so, how can anyone win an argument against that or what God said?

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 25 October 2016 at 8:39pm

God has Sons by the tons.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 28 October 2016 at 12:22pm

iec786 wrote:

God has Sons by the tons.

This is very true. Didn't Naik or Deedat come up with that saying?
While it is true God has sons by the tons we also have to understand that only those who do Allah's will are sons of God. Jesus is His only son, because he is the only one that fully obeyed all commands and laws of God without sin, and through him we too can become spiritual sons of God according to the gospel.

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 30 October 2016 at 5:26pm

Dear Saved,

You said in this topic "Jesus is His only son," while in other topics you say "As for Adam not having father or mother that is not true. Adam had God as his father (Jesus is the last Adam). "
Which one is true ?
Then I want to ask you, does Mary (Jesus mother) has the parents?

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 30 October 2016 at 5:42pm

rmujaahida wrote:

Asalam Alaykum
Umm what should further not be forgotten is the lecture which supported the truth that jesus never claimed to be the son of god... [IMG]smileys/smiley18.gif" align="middle" /> Christianity lost the arguement

Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God ? WRONG! Read Mathew 26.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 31 October 2016 at 1:14pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

Dear Saved,

You said in this topic "Jesus is His only son," while in other topics you say "As for Adam not having father or mother that is not true. Adam had God as his father (Jesus is the last Adam). "
Which one is true ?
Then I want to ask you, does Mary (Jesus mother) has the parents?

Regards,
Asep

It is not about what I said or say; it is what the Scriptures state. God said in an audible voice: "This is my beloved Son hear ye Him" The gospel backs up that he is God's only son. When the Scripture uses the phrase "He gives us power to become sons of God;" it means children of God and sons only through the work of Christ who is his unique and not sired son, but the sons by the tons are not God's only son or God's only Word proceeding from Him to become human.

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 3:30am

Dear Saved,

Alright, here lies a very fundamental difference.
In Christianity, Jesus is the son of God, in Islam Jesus (Isa) is not the son of God, but he is a human as mentioned in Quran 4: 171, Quran 5: 116-120, and the Gospel of Barnabas (John 5:27).
The verses in the Quran and John 5:27 has the same understanding.
And if I look carefully, the contents of the Gospel have similar form with hadith in Islam.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 10:34am

asep48garut60 wrote:

Dear Saved,

Alright, here lies a very fundamental difference.
In Christianity, Jesus is the son of God, in Islam Jesus (Isa) is not the son of God, but he is a human as mentioned in Quran 4: 171, Quran 5: 116-120, and the Gospel of Barnabas (John 5:27).
The verses in the Quran and John 5:27 has the same understanding.
And if I look carefully, the contents of the Gospel have similar form with hadith in Islam.

Regards,
Asep

Hi Asep:

Jn. 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice�

Lets look at it in context. According to the gospel God judges no man but has committed all judgment to the son so that they will honor the Son the same as the Father.

When the Scripture says "Son of Man" that is higher than sons of god, because there is only one son of man in the context it is used. It is the same son of man that appeared with the three Hebrew children thrown in the fire found in the Book of Daniel the prophet.

That verse is not emphasizing Jesus' humanity. When Jesus referred to himself as son of man that upset the Jews more than anything else. Besides, you are looking at this from a carnal perspective. Since you are, think of this question and answer it: Was a man involved to procreate Jesus?
The Quran might make the phrase "Son of Man" or the disparaging phrase "Son of Mary" to mean just being a human man. The emphasizes might be man in the Quran, but not so with the gospel verse Jn 5:27

Peace,
Al

Posted By: ForHumanity
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 3:12pm

Hi, I'm new to the forum, but would like to take up your question, or rather statement.

You claim that "God has shown his patience and punishment" by (God Forbid) killing Ahmed Deedat in retaliation to his "highly offensive talk" in Sydney.

I make these claims:

1. His talks were not highly offensive, rather they were a one of a kind talk, in which a Muslim has logically proven Jesus did not die on the Cross, based on evidence from the bible.

Please listen to his final talk to find the exact references.

2. If you claim, for the worst, that his death was not coincidental, I think you'll agree I can too make that claim.

Notice the day he died on, notice the day he made his speech on. What do we notice? He made the speech on a Friday, and died on a Friday - a death highly coveted by Muslims as it is the congregational prayer day.

So I could argue God blessed him.

3. Your claim lacks scientific proof - as does mine.

Which means, and with which I conclude, you cannot ascertain the role of God in his death.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 4:55pm

Does anyone know how many post we have to make before the moderators stop holding our posts for approval? I could understand doing this to someone for the first view post, but after a while it really slows the forum down.
If seems like too much control, IMO...

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 02 November 2016 at 5:40pm

Saved wrote:

Dear Saved,

One thing that doesn't make sense to me, why in the Gospel verse John 5:27 God says, "He is the son of man", why did not say "He is my son"?
I think all religions in this world agree that their God can not be debased His position as God by His creatures.
Therefore, there is my previous question related to Jesus is the Son of God ie whether Mary has parents?

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 02 November 2016 at 6:30pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

Hi Asep:

Jesus referred to himself as the son of man and God referred to Him as Son of God. As I mentioned, when the Scripture says "Son of Man" that is higher than sons of god, because there is only one son of man in the context it is used. It is the same son of man that appeared with the three Hebrew children thrown in the fire found in the Book of Daniel the prophet.

PBUY,
Al

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 04 November 2016 at 1:35am

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

Hi Asep:

Please read the last post. I answered your question there.
The Son of Man and The Son of God were the only phases or titles used for Jesus in a unique way and for no other prophets. God may have sons by the tons as you mentioned and we are son a daughters of mankind, But these titles for Jesus go beyond the finite human reason. Theses titles concerning Jesus need to be looked at in the context of all the gospel. You cannot take one phrase and created a doctrine.

Peace,
al

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 06 November 2016 at 2:45pm

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

Dear Saved,

If Jesus is the son of God, what the name of the family tree between God and Mary's parents?

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 06 November 2016 at 2:49pm

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 06 November 2016 at 2:50pm

Dear Saved,

I didn�t say �God may have sons by the tons as you mentioned�, I even deny that God has a son, even me explain to you what is stated in John 5:27 that there is the same understanding with the statement in the Quran 4: 171, Koran 5: 116-120 that Jesus is the son of man, not a son of God.
You said �Theses titles concerning Jesus need to be looked at in the context of all the gospel. You cannot take one phrase and created a doctrine. �

Therefore, I've read the contents of some of the Gospels, and I found a lot of contents aren't equal between one to another. do I need to prove?

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 06 November 2016 at 6:04pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

One thing that doesn't make sense to me, why in the Gospel verse John 5:27 God says, "He is the son of man", why did not say "He is my son"?

Maybe one reason it doesn't make sense to you is because it is not God who said He is the son of man; It was Jesus saying it. Unless you are also saying Jesus is God???

asep48garut60 wrote:

If Jesus is the son of God, what the name of the family tree between God and Mary's parents?

You are looking at this all wrong. God didn't sire Jesus. the term Son of God is meaning Jesus is the Word of God; it means unlike all other prophets, He is from God's essence. Now that doesn't me God's partner. It means that we can only be saved by the word of God and Jesus has the monopoly on all the Word of God.

Regards,
Al

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 08 November 2016 at 12:14pm

Dear Saved,

I understand your point, I said to you that in Islam or according to the belief of Muslims that Jesus was a prophet (messenger of God), who has the same duties as other Prophets to convey Tauhid's religion (monotheism).
If you believe that "He is from God's essence", it is your belief, but according to the belief of Muslims that he is God's creation, and that's the difference.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 08 November 2016 at 8:32pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

Dear Saved,

I understand your point, I said to you that in Islam or according to the belief of Muslims that Jesus was a prophet (messenger of God), who has the same duties as other Prophets to convey Tauhid's religion (monotheism).
If you believe that "He is from God's essence", it is your belief, but according to the belief of Muslims that he is God's creation, and that's the difference.

Regards,
Asep

It doesn't make sense that Jesus mission was to convey monotheism. All the Jews believed in one God already. Moreover, Christians don't see Jesus as a messenger, because the gospel portrays Him not as a messenger but as the MESSAGE.

I understand where we differ, and I agree with you that is the difference. We have the Quranic account and we have the gospel account of Jesus that the Quran is suppose to confirm. We get no evidence of confirmation from Islam; we only get contradiction and a usurping of the gospel we have in our possession. Let the truth be told.

peace,
Al

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 6:56pm

Yes, that is the difference among many others, but this difference is the difference between life and death.
Since God is not willing that any should perish, we want to share His heart and inform people the best we can, but only God can guide someone to the truth that leads to eternal life in paradise.
When virgin born Jesus said, "I am the Way..." I understood him to mean he is not only a messenger; He is the Message. This cannot be said of any other prophet!

Posted By: ISLAM HASHTAG
Date Posted: 13 November 2016 at 12:01am

Here are few Quranic Verses directly Speaking to Christians about Jesus .Prophet Isa (AH).

If You want to now what Muslims think of Jesus then you must read this-

http://islamhashtag.com/jesus-in-islam/ - http://islamhashtag.com/jesus-in-islam/

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 13 November 2016 at 1:31am

Dear Saved,

In Islam, not only Jesus who said "I am the Way ..." I believe that other Messengers of Allah also said like that, for example, Allah told the Prophet Muhammad in the Quran 3:31.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 7:38pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

Dear Saved,

In Islam, not only Jesus who said "I am the Way ..." I believe that other Messengers of Allah also said like that, for example, Allah told the Prophet Muhammad in the Quran 3:31.

Regards,
Asep

Quaran 31 says - "Obey Allah and the messenger."
That is different from what Jesus said. Jesus did not say "obey me to find the way" He said I AM The way. Be one in me" !

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 7:47pm

The Saint wrote:

Jesus PBUH was a great Prophet of God Almighty. And trinity is a big hoax and even illogical.

Prove it is a hoax ! I challenge you ! Nothing illogical about it. The sun in the sky gives heat. It also give light. Sun =1. Heat =1. Light =1.
1x1x1 = 1.

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 7:57pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

Dear Saved,

I didn�t say �God may have sons by the tons as you mentioned�, I even deny that God has a son, even me explain to you what is stated in John 5:27 that there is the same understanding with the statement in the Quran 4: 171, Koran 5: 116-120 that Jesus is the son of man, not a son of God.
You said �Theses titles concerning Jesus need to be looked at in the context of all the gospel. You cannot take one phrase and created a doctrine. �

Therefore, I've read the contents of some of the Gospels, and I found a lot of contents aren't equal between one to another. do I need to prove?

Regards,
Asep

Yes. You need to prove !

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 7:59pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

Dear Saved,

If Jesus is the son of God, what the name of the family tree between God and Mary's parents?

Regards,
Asep

Jesus was divine and human. The family trees in the Bible are his human family tree (geneology)

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 11:23am

2Acts wrote:

Jesus was divine and human. The family trees in the Bible are his human family tree (geneology)

Yes, and it traces back to King David; his question has been answered.

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 12:34pm

2Acts wrote:

Quaran 31 says - "Obey Allah and the messenger."
That is different from what Jesus said. Jesus did not say "obey me to find the way" He said I AM The way. Be one in me" !

Dear 2Acts,

Yes, you are right that in Quran 3:31, Muslims should follow the Prophet Muhammad (in the way of worship) if Muslims want to be loved by Allah.
Do you mean the words of Jesus: "I am the way ..."? whether it's an order to follow the way of worship Jesus or not? or whether the intent of "Be one in me" is that all Christians united with Jesus? Could you explain it?

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 12:38pm

2Acts wrote:

Yes. You need to prove !

Dear 2Acts,

Here are some evidence that I read:

1. Which one is true, 8 years or 18 years?

"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he became king, and three months and ten days he reigned in Jerusalem. He did evil in the sight of God. "(The Book of 2 Chronicles 36:9)

"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem. His mother's name Nehusta bint Elnathan, from Jerusalem. "(The Book of 2 Kings 24:8)

2. Which one is right, God or the Devil?

"Rise wrath of God against Israel; He incited David against them, He say, 'Go, count the people of Israel and Judah.' "(The Book of 2 Samuel 24:1)

"Devil stood up against the people of Israel, and persuaded David to number Israel." (The Book of 1 Chronicles 21:1)

3. Verse unreasonable

"And Shem and Japhet took a garment, and put on their shoulders, and walked retreat to the back and cover up his father naked and their faces turned their father in order not to see the body of their father were nude. And Noah awoke from hangover, he know what has been done by his two sons ". (Genesis 9: 23-24)

Does God send Noah (a prophet) behaves like that? Could this fraud committed Jews to mislead the Christians?
And many others.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 12:40pm

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

Dear Saved,

If Jesus is the son of God, what the name of the family tree between God and Mary's parents?

Regards,
Asep

Jesus was divine and human. The family trees in the Bible are his human family tree (geneology)

Dear 2Acts,

I understand if it means like that, however "Jesus was divine and human." That means that God entered into the body of Jesus?

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 8:42pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

I understand if it means like that, however "Jesus was divine and human." That means that God entered into the body of Jesus?

Regards,
Asep

Not exactly, but not far from the truth. It is more like Jesus is the essence, nature and character of God (The Word of God) made human yet he was less than God by position, office and function. It is like saying Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. This is infinitely greater than what the finite human mind can gasp, but it is the concept of the gospel in regards to His triunity.

That is why Jesus was able to say "If you have seen me you have seen (God) the father." To know Jesus is to have eternal life, the kingdom of God or paradise within you now. IOW, we can have God (The Holy Spirit) inside of us. This is something that no other religion can offer us. We can have benefit from other religions, but there is no other name given us whereby we might be saved but the name of Jesus Christ who is able to forgive sin, heal the sick, raise the dead and create life.

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 11:43pm

Dear Saved,

We already know that we have different beliefs, and what you believe in is not the same as what I believe because we have an understanding of each.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 7:50am

asep48garut60 wrote:

Dear Saved,

We already know that we have different beliefs, and what you believe in is not the same as what I believe because we have an understanding of each.

Regards,
Asep

Yes, but it is good to talk and reason. God said come and let us reason together; though your sins be red as scarlet, they shall be white as snow. So, God says it is good to reason with Him; so, how much more is it good to reason with each other even though we know what we believe?

Peace

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 22 November 2016 at 4:27pm

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

I understand if it means like that, however "Jesus was divine and human." That means that God entered into the body of Jesus?

Regards,
Asep

An interesting answer Saved.

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 22 November 2016 at 4:29pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

Dear Saved,

If Jesus is the son of God, what the name of the family tree between God and Mary's parents?

Regards,
Asep

Jesus was divine and human. The family trees in the Bible are his human family tree (geneology)

Dear 2Acts,

I understand if it means like that, however "Jesus was divine and human." That means that God entered into the body of Jesus?

Regards,
Asep

Hi Asep
Firstly part of God became man. The creative, radiant nature or part of God took human form in Jesus Christ. That man, Jesus, had dual nature � both human and divine. In Jesus sometimes we see the human characteristics and at other times we see the divine characteristics. As Jesus grew from boyhood into an adult the divine within him blossomed at significant times. Examples of these significant times are his baptism, the times when he heals and forgives sin, his transformation and his resurrection.
The Son of God became the Son of Man that the sons of men through Him might become the sons of God.

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 22 November 2016 at 4:32pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Yes. You need to prove !

Hi Asep
The contradictions are easily explained. The Bible and Quran make different claims about them selves. The Bible is more like your hadith. It does not claim to be some kind of absolute literal WORD straight from God. Instead it claims to be the INSPIRED Word of God written by imperfect men. Basically it means �God breathed�. (2 Timothy 3.16)
The Bible was written by human beings -men. Imperfect men who had the breath of God upon them. Men who were imperfect but yet were inspired. Any error in scripture is limited to the shortcomings of the vessel and not the message. Any such errors are limited and have no bearing on the ultimate message of the scriptures. The Scriptures are always right only in fulfilling their primary purpose: revealing God, God�s vision, God�s purposes, and God�s good news to humanity. The Bible�s message is directly inspired by God, and though he used human vessels to transport this message it remains accurate and trustworthy.
However look at the Quran. Unlike the INSPIRED Bible - It is supposed to be the direct, absolute, literal, perfect WORD of God. But it has many problems and contradictions. The direct literal perfect WORD of GOD must not have problems and contradictions. Here are some examples-
Contradictions �
Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong?
Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses.

Allah, Adam, and the Angels.
There are a great number of problems and inconsistencies between the several accounts of Adam's creation, Allah's command to prostrate before Adam, Satans refusal, etc.

Who Was the First Muslim?
Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]?

Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord?
Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29],
No [6:102-103, 42:51].

Ridiculous �
The Quran says Soloman spoke with ants. O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not.
Sura 27:18-19
But ants do not communicate in a sophisticated manner as to say.

Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool.
This is ridiculous!

Throwing Stars at the Devils?
The stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly coucil? Not exactly a "scientific" world view.
Sura 37.6-8

This is all just ridiculous and an example of how the writer of the Quran did not understand the facts of science. Regarding the behaviour of Noah. Do I think a prophet should behave like that ? Perhaps. Noah was just a man. Nothing more. He was not perfect. What about Mohamad. He ordered his men to piece his enemies eyes with hot nails ! (Sahih Bukhari). Is that how a prophet should behave !?

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 22 November 2016 at 4:35pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Quaran 31 says - "Obey Allah and the messenger."
That is different from what Jesus said. Jesus did not say "obey me to find the way" He said I AM The way. Be one in me" !

Hi Asep.
The verse you are referring to is John 14.6 where Jesus said �"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.�
From this it is obvious it is much more than just an order to follow the way of worship of Jesus. Yes it is closer to all Christians being united with Jesus. Jesus says he is not just THE Way. But HE is THE TRUTH and the LIFE. We must come through HIM to the father.
Peace to you.

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 23 November 2016 at 12:03pm

Dear Saved,

Yes, it's good to talk but if there are opinions or reasons that are not the same, we must mutually accept any such differences. I just ordered by Allah to convey, and which will assess only Allah, as mentioned in the Quran (13):40. "..., then indeed the task you just to deliver, and We who calculate their charity."

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: Budain
Date Posted: 24 November 2016 at 10:08am

I have trouble believing that the Pope is an infallible leader of the catholic church on earth. Is there an infallible leader of the muslim faith?

Posted By: colinberry1
Date Posted: 24 November 2016 at 10:06pm

Well you wouldn't recognise God if he was standing in front of us, we see what we want to see and we do what we want to do, that is why we have the world we have today.

Posted By: colinberry1
Date Posted: 29 November 2016 at 12:04am

Well, the message, I am the way and the truth and the life.

I take it that we have lost our way somewhere along the line, we have chosen to replace all of that to what we have today. I suppose we choose to have different political parties to follow it through, we must prefer a bunch of political parties telling us all these lies, and debate after, who have chosen those bunch of liars, and start all over again.

Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 29 November 2016 at 8:45pm

Budain wrote:

I have trouble believing that the Pope is an infallible leader of the catholic church on earth. Is there an infallible leader of the muslim faith?

Greetings Budain,

The Muslims don't believe in the infallibiility of anyone except the Prophets and Messengers as God Al Mighty protected them from all sins. However due to their inherent human nature they were prone to make mistakes and some of them did commit sins like Adam (alaihi Salaam) eating from the forbidden tree and Moses (alaihi Salaam) killing the man, yet Allah (swt) forgave them. Moses (alaihi Salaam) committed a sin before Prophethood was bestowed on him.

Once they are honored with Prophethood and their ministry as a prophet begins then they are completely protected from all kinds of minor and major sins.

However, the Shia Muslims, particularly those belonging to the Ithna Ashari (Twelver) thought do believe in the infallibility of Imams who descended from the Prophet through his daughter Fatima (alaihi Salaam). There are other Shias who don't agree to that like majority Sunni Muslims therefore this is a view of a minority among the Muslims.

Allah (swt) knows best.

Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 29 November 2016 at 9:08pm

@2Acts

Ali Ibn Abi Talib (alaihi Salaam) said "Man is an enemy of that which he has no knowledge"

�And before Solomon were marshaled His hosts � of Jinns and men And birds, and they were all Kept in order and ranks. �At length, when they came To a (lowly) valley of ants, One of the ants said: �O ye ants, get into Your habitations, lest Solomon And his hosts crush you (Under foot) without knowing it.�� [AlQur�aan 27:17-18]

Scientific Facts about the Lifestyle of Ants:

(a) The ants bury their dead in a manner similar to the humans.
(b) They have a sophisticated system of division of labour, whereby they have managers, supervisors, foremen, workers, etc.
(c) Once in a while they meet among themselves to have a �chat�.
(d) They have an advanced method of communication (pheromones) among themselves.
(e) They hold regular markets wherein they exchange goods.
(f) They store grains for long periods in winter and if the grain begins to bud, they cut the roots, as if they understand that if they leave it to grow, it will rot. If the grains stored by them get wet due to rains, they take these grains out into the sunlight to dry, and once these are dry, they take them back inside as though they know that humidity will cause development of root systems and thereafter rotting of the grain.

There is an answer for each and every "error" you pointed within the Quran. I believe brother Asep will respond to them.

All the best.

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 29 November 2016 at 10:43pm

syed_z wrote:

@2ActsAli Ibn Abi Talib (alaihi Salaam) said "Man is an enemy of that which he has no knowledge"��And before Solomon were marshaled His hosts � of Jinns and men And birds, and they were all Kept in order and ranks. �At length, when they came To a (lowly) valley of ants, One of the ants said: �O ye ants, get into Your habitations, lest Solomon And his hosts crush you (Under foot) without knowing it.�� [AlQur�aan 27:17-18]Scientific Facts about the Lifestyle of Ants:(a) The ants bury their dead in a manner similar to the humans. (b) They have a sophisticated system of division of labour, whereby they have managers, supervisors, foremen, workers, etc.� (c) Once in a while they meet among themselves to have a �chat�. (d) They have an advanced method of communication (pheromones) among themselves.� (e) They hold regular markets wherein they exchange goods.� (f) They store grains for long periods in winter and if the grain begins to bud, they cut the roots, as if they understand that if they leave it to grow, it will rot. If the grains stored by them get wet due to rains, they take these grains out into the sunlight to dry, and once these are dry, they take them back inside as though they know that humidity will cause development of root systems and thereafter rotting of the grain. There is an answer for each and every "error" you pointed within the Quran. I believe brother Asep will respond to them.All the best.

Only one problem with that Syed.
Ants are not capable of sophisticated verbal communication to be able to say -
�O ye ants, get into Your habitations, lest Solomon And his hosts crush you (Under foot) without knowing it.�
Man is an enemy of that which is foolishness !

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 30 November 2016 at 6:44am

Budain wrote:

I have trouble believing that the Pope is an infallible leader of the catholic church on earth. Is there an infallible leader of the muslim faith?

Islam has much more in common with the Catholic Church, because like Catholics believe the Pope is infallible Muslims believe the prophets are infallible. Catholics believe the Pope is like Jesus on earth and nothing could be further from the truth. The Pope and the prophets of old were men and had weakness that a common to men. They were simply chosen by God to convey a message, and there are times they disobey and fail God by sinning. Look at the prophet Jonah who disobeyed God; Look at Moses who disobeyed God; Look at David who disobeyed God and there are more stories of prophet short comings. Making the Pope or prophets infallible in our minds is nothing short of idolatry.
Jesus was, is and will be the only exception, because He was born of a virgin that distinguishes Him apart for all other prophets as the Word of God, and He is the only way to God and the only truth to follow and the only way to salvation of our souls. He is the Rock of our salvation all other ground is sinking sand.

Some Muslims ask if Jesus is the son of God why is he called the son of man? First a Muslims should tell me why they call Him son of woman (Mary) when He calls Himself the son of man? And then I'll answer their question

Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 30 November 2016 at 7:32am

Roman Catholics do not believe the Pope is infallible.

Their dogma is that when the Pope speaks officially on matters of faith that believers do not sin if they follow his teaching, even if it is incorrect. There is no sin because they were following God in good faith as best they could.

From the believers POV the Pope is an infallible spiritual leader, but RC's believe Pope is a sinner and prone to error as are we all. He even has a designated confessor.

-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 30 November 2016 at 10:38am

DavidC wrote:

Roman Catholics do not believe the Pope is infallible.

Their dogma is that when the Pope speaks officially on matters of faith that believers do not sin if they follow his teaching, even if it is incorrect. There is no sin because they were following God in good faith as best they could.

From the believers POV the Pope is an infallible spiritual leader, but RC's believe Pope is a sinner and prone to error as are we all. He even has a designated confessor.

I was born and raise Roman Catholic and my understanding going to Catholic school and all is that the Pope was Christ on earth. Of course we know that Christ is infallible; so, I just connected the dots, but I haven't kept track the RCC which is constantly changing things; so, now maybe they believe differently about the Pope; nevertheless, the point is when we think any men are infallible we make idols of them. Prophets are men that have the same struggles as do we all

Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 30 November 2016 at 1:16pm

�And before Solomon were marshaled His hosts � of Jinns and men And birds, and they were all Kept in order and ranks. �At length, when they came To a (lowly) valley of ants, One of the ants said: �O ye ants, get into Your habitations, lest Solomon And his hosts crush you (Under foot) without knowing it.�� [AlQur�aan 27:17-18]

Great news that the God informs us that our weight is such that we can crush ants.

I'm learning every day: Airmano

-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 30 November 2016 at 3:58pm

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

Dear Saved,

If Jesus is the son of God, what the name of the family tree between God and Mary's parents?

Regards,
Asep

Jesus was divine and human. The family trees in the Bible are his human family tree (geneology)

Dear 2Acts,

I understand if it means like that, however "Jesus was divine and human." That means that God entered into the body of Jesus?

Regards,
Asep

Dear 2Acts,

Thanks for your explanation, and my understanding in Islam that God is not the same as anyone else, as in His word. If �part of God took human form in Jesus Christ.�, then, who will manage and oversee all beings in this world? In the understanding of Islam, everything in the universe is under His control and power.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 01 December 2016 at 11:38am

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Yes. You need to prove !

Dear 2Acts,

-----------------------------------------
Here are some examples- Contradictions
Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong?
Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses.
-----------------------------------------
There�s no contradictions.
Indeed surah 34:50 it like that, but the continuation of the verse "and if I got the hint, then it is due to what is revealed from my Lord. indeed He is Hearing, Most Near. "

Such verse goes down when the companions of the Prophet always took the initiative to write down what was said by the Prophet, and he forbids to write other than what was ordered to be written. And verses to be written by them is only that which is revealed from God. Quran 53: 3-4

Then, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss,"
He hinted to his companions that he was also a man who did not escape from doing wrong, as in a hadith narrated by Bukhari and Muslim:
"All the descendants of Adam is guilty, and the best for those who guilty was who repent and not repeat mistakes."

Apart from that, when he dies, his people do not worship him as God, as it has been done by the polytheists against Lata, Uzza, and Manat.

-----------------------------
Who Was the First Muslim?
Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]?
----------------------------
The first Muslim is Adam.
02:37 � about: God provides a way to pray for the mistakes Adam, as mentioned in 07:23
02:127-133 about: Ya'kub descendants will worship only to the God of Abraham.
03:67 � about: Abraham is a muslim (muslim means one who surrender and submits to Allah)
06:14 � about: Muhammad is the first Muslim in his environment, at the time no one was embrace Islam.
06:163 � (same with 06:14)
07:143 � about: Moses is the first Muslim in his environment, at the time no one was embrace Islam like Abraham's religion.
26:51 � (same with 07:143)

Explanation:
Islam comes from the word "aslama" which means surrender or submission to Allah, and is derived from the word "salima" which means saved, thus says Islam can be defined that salvation from Allah. And the word Muslim is the subject or the person who runs the Islamic shariah.
All the Apostles are surrender and worship only to one God.
"Verily (this monotheism religion) is the religion of all of you, that is only one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me" (Al-Anbiya 21:92)
Statement of the Apostles that they are the ones who surrendered to Allah, such as: Quran 02: 132, 10:72, 10:84, 21:25, 42:13 etc.

----------------------------------------
Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord?
Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29],
No [6:102-103, 42:51].
---------------------------------------
What is mentioned in Surah 53: 1-18 and 81: 15-29 is that Muhammad saw Gabriel in the original form (not seeing God), that is in Sidratil Muntaha when it received the command about shalah 5 times a day and night, and when he was on earth.
Then what is mentioned in Surah 6: 102-103 and 42:51 is indeed true that God can not be seen directly by the human eye sight.

---------------------------------------
Ridiculous �
The Quran says Soloman spoke with ants. O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not.
Sura 27:18-19
But ants do not communicate in a sophisticated manner as to say.
Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool.
This is ridiculous!
Throwing Stars at the Devils?
The stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly coucil? Not exactly a "scientific" world view.
Sura 37.6-8
-----------------------------------
There�s no ridiculous.
What is referred to in Sura 27: 18-19 it is a real incident, because it is one of the miracles of the Prophet Solomon. Miracles is something extraordinary which no one is able to make it, because it is beyond human ability, therefore it can't be scientifically measured.

What is referred to in Sura 18: 85-86 is that they see the sun set exactly vertically with a black muddy spring, and found a surrounding people who are not religious.

Then, surah 37:6-8 �throwing stars at the devils.�
Vision of the human eye is limited, whereas in this universe there are creatures that physically can be seen and some are not viewable (unseen), and it would be hard measured by science, and for a Muslim who was given the knowledge of the unseen (ghaib), they will believe it. Therefore the devils pelted with stars is a natural thing, because sometimes the earth is located between two devil horns. And that's one of the secrets of the dawn prayer (not all muslims know it).

-------------------------
This is all just ridiculous and an example of how the writer of the Quran did not understand the facts of science. Regarding the behaviour of Noah. Do I think a prophet should behave like that ? Perhaps. Noah was just a man. Nothing more. He was not perfect. What about Mohamad. He ordered his men to piece his enemies eyes with hot nails ! (Sahih Bukhari). Is that how a prophet should behave !?
------------------------------
I think quite the contrary, when the Quran was written, people didn't know the science, but the Quran has informed about science, and now one by one can be provable, for example: the sun has its own orbit, etc.
Then, all the messengers of God was well-behaved, how will they be followed by their followers if they were behaved badly.
Nowadays a lot of scattered hadiths with the name of sahih hadith. I've explained in this forum about how to determine that it's an sahih hadith.
Hadith which states that "he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails", is strongly opposed to the hadiths of the following:

"Actually I was sent to perfect the noble character." (Sahih Muslim)
"Love the people as you love yourself." (Sahih Bukhari)
"Whoever does not love his fellow man, he/she will not be loved by God." (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim). And much more.

God's statement regarding the character of the Prophet Muhammad in the Quran include:
Surah 68: 4, 33:21, 16: 127, 3: 159 etc.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 01 December 2016 at 11:42am

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Quaran 31 says - "Obey Allah and the messenger."
That is different from what Jesus said. Jesus did not say "obey me to find the way" He said I AM The way. Be one in me" !

Dear 2Acts,

Well 2Acts, please if it is your belief, and the belief of Muslims that Jesus was a Messenger of God who has the same tasks with the other Messengers of God, even he will be assigned again by God to earth when this universe approaching apocalypse.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 01 December 2016 at 8:11pm

2Acts wrote:

Only one problem with that Syed.
Ants are not capable of sophisticated verbal communication to be able to say -
�O ye ants, get into Your habitations, lest Solomon And his hosts crush you (Under foot) without knowing it.�
Man is an enemy of that which is foolishness !

My dear friend,

Ants did not speak in English, neither did they speak in Arabic, neither were they communicating the message to Suleiman (alaihi Salaam) in Hebrew. They communicated with each other, Allah (swt) knew their medium of communication and revealed that reality to His blessed Prophet Suleiman (alaihi Salaam) and he was grateful for that to Allah:

(17:44) The seven heavens and the earth and everyone in them glorify Him. There is not a single thing that does not celebrate His praise, though you do not understand their praise: He is most forbearing, most forgiving.

Everything cannot be understood literally in human terms. Majority humans use 5 senses only but the Prophets and the friends of God (Saints) have higher spirituality with which many realities of the heavens and the earths are shown to them by God.

Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 01 December 2016 at 9:27pm

2Acts wrote:

Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool.
This is ridiculous!

My Dear friend,

This is not a contradiction. In fact this can even be proven scientifically in our time.

First you need to understand the Arabic words. The below is the English Translation:

(18:65) (And he marched westwards) till, when he came to the setting of the sun it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;

The sun was about to set in the Western hemisphere when he reached the shores of a sea. Beyond the sea he could see the sunset. Hamiyattin means Dark Muddy, or dark turbid, something in it that causes it to appear dark. The Quran refers to the water of that sea as dark.

Is there a huge body of water on earth that has dark waters? Yes there is, its called the Black Sea!

A possible explanation for the name �Black Sea� is located in the unusually
dark color of its deep waters. The microalgae concentration is much richer causing the dark color. Underwater visibility in the Black Sea is much less than other seas like Mediterranean.

The following link has an article on Black Sea and even a picture that shows the Sun setting in the waters which obviously is an illusion, but thats how it really does appear to the naked eye.

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27989/20160902/oh-black-sea-losing-habitable-waters.htm

That is why the English translators of the Quran have used the words "appeared to be" so to make sense of the Arabic: Wawajada Taghrubu for English speakers like yourself.

Why Allah chose to send Dhul Qarnayn there and why did He identify this sea in the final revelation for mankind? The answers to these can only be understood by those who study the Quran without bias.

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 02 December 2016 at 12:54am

syed_z wrote:

My dear friend,Ants did not speak in English, neither did they speak in Arabic, neither were they communicating the message to Suleiman (alaihi Salaam) in Hebrew. They communicated with each other, Allah (swt) knew their medium of communication and revealed that reality to His blessed Prophet Suleiman (alaihi Salaam) and he was grateful for that to Allah:(17:44) The seven heavens and the earth and everyone in them glorify Him. There is not a single thing that does not celebrate His praise, though you do not understand their praise: He is most forbearing, most forgiving. Everything cannot be understood literally in human terms. Majority humans use 5 senses only but the Prophets and the friends of God (Saints) have higher spirituality with which many realities of the heavens and the earths are shown to them by God.

Hello Syed
English, Arabic, Hebrew. It doesn�t matter. Ants are not capable of sophisticated verbal communication to be able to say -
�O ye ants, get into Your habitations, lest Solomon And his hosts crush you (Under foot) without knowing it.�
What do you mean not everything cannot be understood literally in human terms. Are you saying the Quran cannot be understood literally ? But the Quran itself says it is literal, clear and plain -
�These are the verses of the Book that is clear.�12.1 and 27.1.
�A Book whereof the Ayat are explained in detail�41.3.
Regards
Acts2

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 02 December 2016 at 12:56am

syed_z wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool.
This is ridiculous!

My Dear friend,This is not a contradiction. In fact this can even be proven scientifically in our time. First you need to understand the Arabic words. The below is the English Translation:(18:65) (And he marched westwards) till, when he came to the setting of the sun it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;The sun was about to set in the Western hemisphere when he reached the shores of a sea. Beyond the sea he could see the sunset. Hamiyattin means Dark Muddy, or dark turbid, something in it that causes it to appear dark. The Quran refers to the water of that sea as dark.Is there a huge body of water on earth that has dark waters? Yes there is, its called the Black Sea!A possible explanation for the name �Black Sea� is located in the unusually dark color of its deep waters. The microalgae concentration is much richer causing the dark color. Underwater visibility in the Black Sea is much less than other seas like Mediterranean. The following link has an article on Black Sea and even a picture that shows the Sun setting in the waters which obviously is an illusion, but thats how it really does appear to the naked eye.http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27989/20160902/oh-black-sea-losing-habitable-waters.htmThat is why the English translators of the Quran have used the words "appeared to be" so to make sense of the Arabic: Wawajada Taghrubu for English speakers like yourself. Why Allah chose to send Dhul Qarnayn there and why did He identify this sea in the final revelation for mankind? The answers to these can only be understood by those who study the Quran without bias.

Hello Syed
I disagree. Here are a number of English translations and all of them say it is a muddy pond � not athe sea ! All of these translations agree with each other.
Pickthal � �when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring,�
Yusaf Ali � �when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water.�
Taqui Usman � �When he reached the point of sunset he found it setting in a miry spring.�
Dr Moshin � �when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. �
A spring or pond � not the sea

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 02 December 2016 at 1:00am

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

Dear Saved,

If Jesus is the son of God, what the name of the family tree between God and Mary's parents?

Regards,
Asep

Jesus was divine and human. The family trees in the Bible are his human family tree (geneology)

Dear 2Acts,

I understand if it means like that, however "Jesus was divine and human." That means that God entered into the body of Jesus?

Regards,
Asep

Dear Asep
I agree. God is not the same as anyone else. However man is made in Gods image -
�So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.� Genesis 1.27
You ask If �part of God took human form in Jesus Christ.�, then, who will manage and oversee all beings in this world. The answer is that God can be everywhere. In a man on earth and in heaven. God is all powerful and everywhere.

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 02 December 2016 at 1:04am

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Yes. You need to prove !

Hi Asep
Thank you for your explanations. Perhaps you are correct? Perhaps not? The fact is however, your explanations are not clear, they are complicated. Yet the Quran states that it is not complicated. The Quran is supposed to be clear! Surahs 11.1, 12.1, 27.1.41.3 and 57.9 state this. How can the clear and plain WORD of God be complicated?
Looking closely at Soloman and the ants in Surah 27.18-19 if this is a miracle it is onlt that Soloman understands the speech of ants and animals. However it is a fact - ants and animals do not speak!. If they could I could believe it that Soloman could understand them. But ants and animals do not speak. So this story in the Quran is not a "miracle" it is just a childs fairy tale.
Asep � is it impossible for the sun to sink into a muddy pond ! To say that stars are for throwing at the devils is just a fairy tale. Not even based on science. Ridiculous.
Actually Asep, the account of Mohamad he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails" cannot be strongly opposed to the hadiths of Sahih Bukhari because it is from Sahih Bukhari ! -Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234: !

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 02 December 2016 at 1:06am

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Quaran 31 says - "Obey Allah and the messenger."
That is different from what Jesus said. Jesus did not say "obey me to find the way" He said I AM The way. Be one in me" !

Hi Asep
We agree and disagree on some things.
No Jesus was more than just a Messenger of God with the same tasks as other Messengers of God. Jesus was actually part of God. He was God The Son.
And yes -Jesus Christ The Mesiah Son of God will return and judge the earth at the approaching apocalypse.

Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 03 December 2016 at 12:33am

Syed_z on 18:65

(And he marched westwards) till, when he came to the setting of the sun it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea

Hamiyattin means Dark Muddy, or dark turbid, something in it that causes it to appear dark. The Quran refers to the water of that sea as dark.

Is there a huge body of water on earth that has dark waters? Yes there is, its called the Black Sea!

To start: The translation I trust the most is the word by word translation in http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=86 - Corpus Quran which leaves the interpetation to the reader. There the word "source/spring" and "mudd(y)" show up explicitly.

I guess you have found your translation of 18:65 on a http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/86/ - Website like this.

Looking at the individual translations therein you'll find that the vast majority translates it as something like "spring of muddy water".
First, can you explain how you can logically identify/link the word "spring" in sea ?

Looking at the translations that get closer to your version:

The Shakir translation goes: "down into a black sea", explicitly not "the black sea" (If Mohammed wanted to express so didn't the Black Sea have an (Arabic) name ?

Al-Muntakhab says:
"He took the lead in an expedition toward he west until he reached a body of water -said to be the Atlantic Ocean, or more likely a mirky land abounding in swamps"
Again in stark contrast to your claim.

Looking at the translation that comes closest to your claim we find
Shabbir Ahmed: (Conquering land to the West toward Lydia, he reached as far as the Black Sea.) The sun was setting and it appeared to him as if it was setting in the dark waters.
Looking at the wiki entry on Shabbir Ahmed we find that he started to learn Arabic in 1970, so a recent translation.

Another one along this line is the translation from Muhammad Assad, who published his translation in 1980.

So, besides the many "murky waters" there are only the two recent translations which may insinuate "Black Sea". It is however surprising that these translations always pop up (as the Quranic Miracles) when the error becomes obvious and can be seen worldwide.

So, no, the Black Sea interpretation is the usual stretching of the Arabic Language combined with retrofitting the facts to the Quran. And even if it was the black sea: The sun still doesn't settle in it.

Airmano

-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")

Posted By: colinberry1
Date Posted: 05 December 2016 at 12:08am

Budain wrote:

I have trouble believing that the Pope is an infallible leader of the catholic church on earth. Is there an infallible leader of the muslim faith?

I believe it is referring to the chair or the position held.

"Cathedra" and "sedes" are Latin words for a chair, the symbol of the teacher in the ancient world; the "chair" is still used metaphorically as the office of a university professor, and to the "see" of a bishop (from "sedes"). The pope is said to occupy the "chair of Peter" or the "Holy See," since Catholics hold that, as Peter had a special role among the apostles as the preserver of unity, so the pope as successor of Peter holds the role of spokesman for the whole church among the bishops, the successors of the apostles.

In connection with papal infallibility, the Latin phrase ex cathedra (literally, "from the chair") has been defined as meaning "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, (the Bishop of Rome) defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."[2]

The response demanded from believers has been characterized as "assent" in the case of ex cathedra declarations of the popes and "due respect" with regard to their other declarations.[32]

Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 05 December 2016 at 8:11am

syed_z wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool.
This is ridiculous!

My Dear friend,This is not a contradiction. In fact this can even be proven scientifically in our time. First you need to understand the Arabic words. The below is the English Translation:(18:65) (And he marched westwards) till, when he came to the setting of the sun it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;The sun was about to set in the Western hemisphere when he reached the shores of a sea. Beyond the sea he could see the sunset. Hamiyattin means Dark Muddy, or dark turbid, something in it that causes it to appear dark. The Quran refers to the water of that sea as dark.Is there a huge body of water on earth that has dark waters? Yes there is, its called the Black Sea!A possible explanation for the name �Black Sea� is located in the unusually dark color of its deep waters. The microalgae concentration is much richer causing the dark color. Underwater visibility in the Black Sea is much less than other seas like Mediterranean. The following link has an article on Black Sea and even a picture that shows the Sun setting in the waters which obviously is an illusion, but thats how it really does appear to the naked eye.http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27989/20160902/oh-black-sea-losing-habitable-waters.htmThat is why the English translators of the Quran have used the words "appeared to be" so to make sense of the Arabic: Wawajada Taghrubu for English speakers like yourself. Why Allah chose to send Dhul Qarnayn there and why did He identify this sea in the final revelation for mankind? The answers to these can only be understood by those who study the Quran without bias.

Qur�an 18:83-86�And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: �I shall recite to you something of his story.� Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991�Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

Muhammad literally said he found the setting of the sun in a spring muddy spring or hot water.
The hadiths are accurate reports of Muhammad.

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 06 December 2016 at 7:08pm

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

Dear Saved,

If Jesus is the son of God, what the name of the family tree between God and Mary's parents?

Regards,
Asep

Jesus was divine and human. The family trees in the Bible are his human family tree (geneology)

Dear 2Acts,

I understand if it means like that, however "Jesus was divine and human." That means that God entered into the body of Jesus?

Regards,
Asep

Dear 2Acts,

In this case I agree with you, but what about those who make Jesus is God (not the son of God), there would appear the image in their mind the shadow of a human form as God. And this is different to the teachings of Islam that God is not the same with anyone (Quran 112: 1-4)
�Say, �Heis Allah, (who is) One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, Nor is there to Him any equivalent.�

Even in the Quran there is a statement of God about Jesus divinize. (Quran 5:72-75)
(72) �They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.
( 73 ) They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.
( 74 ) So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
( 75 ) The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.�

These verses are as one of those Allah statements about Jesus.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 06 December 2016 at 7:11pm

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Yes. You need to prove !

Dear 2Acts,

It is true that the Quran is not difficult to learn, through His Word in the Quran 54:17, but that makes you less obvious perhaps you only see the translation, if you understand the grammar of Arabic writing in the Quran, God willing, you will understand.
Quran 39:9
�Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only they will remember [who are] people of understanding.�

I don't mean that ants and animals can speech, but the Prophet Solomon could hear the conversation of ants, and it is one of those miracle of Solomon from his God.

Miracles means something extraordinary which all beings do not have the power to make it because it is beyond their ability except Allah. Therefore, it can not be measured with science.
Quran 17:85
�And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little."

Similarly, the miracles Jesus could raise the dead, it could not be measured with science.
Nowadays a lot of scattered hadiths with the name of shahih hadith. I've explained in this forum about how to determine that it's an shahih hadith.
Hadith which states that "he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails", is strongly opposed to the hadiths of the following:

"Actually I was sent to perfect the noble character." (Sahih Muslim)
"Love the people as you love yourself." (Sahih Bukhari)
"Whoever does not love his fellow man, he/she will not be loved by God." (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim). And much more.

God's statement regarding the character of the Prophet Muhammad in the Quran include:
Surah 68: 4, 33:21, 16: 127, 3: 159 etc.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 06 December 2016 at 7:19pm

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Quaran 31 says - "Obey Allah and the messenger."
That is different from what Jesus said. Jesus did not say "obey me to find the way" He said I AM The way. Be one in me" !

Dear 2Acts,

If that's what you believe, yes please, we've got each other's faith and should not impose one another.
You said, �And yes -Jesus Christ The Mesiah Son of God will return and judge the earth at the approaching apocalypse.�
Do you consider that Jesus has not died till now ?, then who the man crucified? because some Christians say that Jesus died on the cross.
In line with your statement, Is there word of God in the Gospel that Jesus will come down again to earth?

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 08 December 2016 at 5:56pm

You wouldn't say about just trusting one translation had you known the reality of Arabic Language. The classical Arabic Language is immensely rich and deep. The modern limited languages of today cannot explain each and every word of the Quran due to their being limited.

As for your 18:65 translation, I would like to admit that I was referring to Asad's Translation and it is one of those I referred to is because of the words "it appeared to him" as that is a correct translation of the word Wajadaha in English (for English readers), as English did not even exist at the time of Prophet Muhammad. I did not take it from the website, I own a copy of Assad's translation.

airmano wrote:

Looking at the individual translations therein you'll find that the vast majority translates it as something like "spring of muddy water".
First, can you explain how you can logically identify/link the word "spring" in sea ? http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/86/ -

My dear friend had you done some more research on Black Sea's water you would not be asking that question. You should know a fact about black sea which is unusual for a sea to have.

I had shared a link earlier on Black Sea which not only shows the sun as 'it appears' setting in it but also a couple of facts mentioned about it.

"Looking at this particular body of water at a map, one could almost mistake it as a lake. It's surrounded by land by all sides, making its main source of water the rivers, which pours in fresh water. It does, however, get its fair share of salt water through Bosphorous Strait, a one-kilometer-wide waterway connecting it to the Mediterranean Sea.

Arthur Capet, first author of the publication on the decline of oxygen in the Black Sea and researcher at MAST, explained that fresh water settles in the upper layers of the body of water without mixing with the denser salt water of the lower layers. Furthermore, permanent stratification keeps the deep waters of the Black Sea deprived of oxygen and marine life tends to develop above this imaginary line."

airmano wrote:

Looking at the translations that get closer to your version:

The Shakir translation goes: "down into a black sea", explicitly not "the black sea" (If Mohammed wanted to express so didn't the Black Sea have an (Arabic) name ?

Al-Muntakhab says:
"He took the lead in an expedition toward he west until he reached a body of water -said to be the Atlantic Ocean, or more likely a mirky land abounding in swamps"
Again in stark contrast to your claim.

Looking at the translation that comes closest to your claim we find
Shabbir Ahmed: (Conquering land to the West toward Lydia, he reached as far as the Black Sea.) The sun was setting and it appeared to him as if it was setting in the dark waters.
Looking at the wiki entry on Shabbir Ahmed we find that he started to learn Arabic in 1970, so a recent translation.

Another one along this line is the translation from Muhammad Assad, who published his translation in 1980.

So, besides the many "murky waters" there are only the two recent translations which may insinuate "Black Sea". It is however surprising that these translations always pop up (as the Quranic Miracles) when the error becomes obvious and can be seen worldwide. http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/86/ -

Thats a good point you made. I appreciate your efforts in trying to show me what you think is correct. But I would like to help you in understanding as to why Shabbir identified as this body of water with Black Sea.

Let me correct you here, I have used Asad translation to explain you the words 'It Appeared to him' so you would understand that the Sun does not enter the sea. Asad in his Message of the Quran which is his official commentary on the Quran (on Surah Kahf) never identified this body of water with Black Sea. He just used the translation of Ai'nin as 'Sea' and not 'Spring' like others have and that is obviously due to richness of the Arabic language.

So why did Shabbir who appeared to study in 1970 identify it as Black Sea? The answer is given by Maulana Maududi in his Tafheem Ul Quran in the following words:

Ibn Jarir Tabari and Ibn Kathir have recorded the event, and Yaqut has mentioned it in his Mu jam-ul-Buldan that when after the conquest of Azerbaijan, Hadrat `Umar sent Suraqah bin `Amr, in 22 A.H. on an expedition to Derbent, Shehrbraz informed him that he had already gathered full information about the wall built by Zul-Qarnain, through a man, who could supply all the necessary details and then the man was actually presented before `Abdur Rehman. (Tabari, Vol. III, pp. 235-239; AI-Bidayah wan-Nihayah, Vol. VII, pp. 122-125, and Mu jam-ul-Buldan, under Bab-ul-Abwab: Derbent)

The fact of this matter is that the earliest Muslims had already identified through their spiritual insight (as they were much stronger in faith that Muslims of today) that cities like 'Derbent' meaning 'Closed Gates' (a city which still exists today) were iron walls made in openings of Caucuses Mountains which stretch between Black Sea and Capsian Sea. Such iron walls were made to prevent wild tribes of Europe from plundering and pillaging the lands south of Caucuses (like Iran, Middle East etc). Most definitely scholars like Shabbir had read the works of scholars of the past, just like Maududi did.

Therefore it is not correct to say that Hamia'tin Ai'nin came to be identified with a sea only recently.

airmano wrote:

So, no, the Black Sea interpretation is the usual stretching of the Arabic Language combined with retrofitting the facts to the Quran. And even if it was the black sea: The sun still doesn't settle in it.
Airmano

Look my friend, understanding the Quran based purely on scientific terms is not what the Quran was revealed for. Anyone who has that approach is mistaken. Quran is not a book of geology or science, it is a book of guidance. It just happens to be that many revelations in the Quran are in conformity with the modern scientific findings.

Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 08 December 2016 at 8:30pm

Peace maker wrote:

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991�Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

Muhammad literally said he found the setting of the sun in a spring muddy spring or hot water.
The hadiths are accurate reports of Muhammad.

My dear friend, I thank you for sharing the above hadith. Yes you are correct this hadith is in Sunan of Abu Dawud which is an authentic collection of Prophetic sayings.

But the question is that did the Prophet ended with the above words or is there a remaining part of this hadith? If there is a remaining part of the above tradition then where is it?

The complete part of the above Hadith is actually in another authentic collection called Sahih Bukhari. It is the following:

Narrated Abu Dhar (r.a)

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (down) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne (of Allah) and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted...."

Since both narrations are reported by the same companion named Abu Dhar (r.a) the scholars agree that the hadith in Sahih Bukhari is a continuation of the hadith in Sunan of Abu Dawud.

So what is the Prophet trying to teach us here? Is he teaching us astronomy? Only weak minded would say 'Yes'. But that's not what hes doing.

The point being made is that Sun, which gives us day light without which we would be in darkness and unable to function properly, runs by the command of Allah (Bi idhnillah) and there is nothing that can change its course unless Allah (swt) Wills it. The Sun's 'Prostration' is a figure of speech of its obedience to Allah's command. The Throne of Allah (Arsh) is used as a mataphor also mentioned several times in the Quran implying His Power over the Universe.

(7:54) Who created the sun, the moon and the stars, all of which are under His Command.

At this point a question might come to our mind why is there a seeming contradiction appearing in following words of both Hadith:

He said: It sets in a spring of warm water. (Abu Dawud)

He said: It goes (down) till it prostrates itself (Bukhari)

This apparent contradiction gets resolved as soon as we understand as to what was he (peace be upon him) trying to teach Abu Dhar (r.a). The point being made in both the hadith is that it does go down everyday which is an undeniable fact.

Any one who genuinely seeks an answer to the apparent confusion would agree that the purpose of his discussion is inform his companion that every new day the major source of life i.e. Sun runs by the command of Allah.

As for the sun, whether you look at it setting in the water or land, it is not going down in any one of them. When you look at the sun going down everyday do you believe that it goes inside the earth?

It sets and it does because Allah wills, waiting to rise once again.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 09 December 2016 at 6:14am

syed_z wrote:

Look my friend, understanding the Quran based
purely on scientific terms is not what the Quran was revealed for.

That is not what I've heard your fellow Muslims say to me. They told me the science in the Quran confirms it is from Allah. You are back peddling for them.

syed_z wrote:

Anyone who has that approach is mistaken. Quran is not a book of geology or science, it is a book of guidance.

Yes, but if it doesn't have science right, why should we trust it for guidance over the gospel we already have and trust?

syed_z wrote:

It just happens to be that many
revelations in the Quran are in conformity with the modern scientific findings.�

Like what? Did you mean that Allah reports a man went to where the sun sets, and he found it setting in murky water or the sun asking Allah for permission to rise again? Please show me the place where there are people and the sun sets in murky warm springs. Show me this, and I'll convert to Islam.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 09 December 2016 at 6:45am

colinberry1 wrote:

Budain wrote:

I have trouble believing that the Pope is an infallible leader of the catholic church on earth. Is there an infallible leader of the muslim faith?

I was born and raised Catholic. Where does it state in Scripture Peter was to have a successor? Why do your refer to the pope as the holy father or priests as father? Isn't that directly opposed to true Biblical Christianity, and one out of many reasons why the protestant movement formed? Jesus said "Call no man on earth your father for one is your father in heaven." I'd rather believe Jesus' words over the Pope or Muhammad.

Posted By: Peace maker
Date Posted: 09 December 2016 at 10:32am

syed_z wrote:

My dear friend, I thank you for sharing the above hadith. Yes you are correct this hadith is in Sunan of Abu Dawud which is an authentic collection of Prophetic sayings.� But the question is that did the Prophet ended with the above words or is there a remaining part of this hadith? If there is a remaining part of the above tradition then where is it?The complete part of the above Hadith is actually in another authentic collection called Sahih Bukhari. It is the following:Narrated Abu Dhar (r.a)The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied,
"Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (down) till it prostrates Itself underneath
the Throne (of Allah) and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted...."Since both narrations are reported by the same companion named Abu Dhar (r.a) the scholars agree that the hadith in Sahih Bukhari is a continuation of the hadith in Sunan of Abu Dawud. So what is the Prophet trying to teach us here? Is he teaching us astronomy? Only weak minded would say 'Yes'. But that's not what hes doing. The point being made is that Sun, which gives us day light without which we would be in darkness and unable to function properly, runs by the command of Allah (Bi idhnillah) and there is nothing that can change its course unless Allah (swt) Wills it. The Sun's 'Prostration' is a figure of speech of its obedience to Allah's command. The Throne of Allah (Arsh) is used as a mataphor also mentioned several times in the Quran implying His Power over the Universe. 

(7:54) Who created the sun, the moon and the stars, all of
which are under His Command.

At this point a question might come to our mind why is there a seeming contradiction appearing in following words of both Hadith:

He said: It sets in a spring of warm water. (Abu Dawud)

He said: It goes (down) till it prostrates itself (Bukhari)

This apparent contradiction gets resolved as soon as we understand as to what was he (peace be upon him) trying to teach Abu Dhar (r.a). The point being made in both the hadith is that it does go down everyday which is an undeniable fact.

Any one who genuinely seeks an answer to the apparent confusion would agree that the purpose of his discussion is inform his companion that every new day the major source of life i.e. Sun runs by the command of Allah.

As for the sun, whether you look at it setting in the water or land, it is not going down in any one of them. When you look at the sun going down everyday do you believe that it goes inside the earth?

It sets and it does because Allah wills, waiting to rise once again.

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (down) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne (of Allah) and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted...."

Taking the above mentioned in Muhammad's prospective it was also not true and the wrong information he was wrongly informed the earth turns on it own axis from west to east aprox every 12 hrs the sun rise and set as a result of the earths rotation and not the sun rotating around the so this was the misinformation Muhammad gave his followers and not from Allah.
The sun is always shinning and its not going down under Allah's throne then the universe will be pitch dark and it will dark on both sides of the earth and you won't be able to see the moon at night also Muhammad made up his own comments which was not true.

Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 10 December 2016 at 9:30am

Syed_z

You wouldn't say about just trusting one translation had you known the reality of Arabic Language.

Corpus Quran has the advantage of presenting translations made by different authors.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The classical Arabic Language is immensely rich and deep.

I hear this statement over and over again, but for the moment I have the impression that this claim is rather religiously motivated than real.
I'm nevertheless ready to get convinced otherwise:

Would you have any scientific/University website comparing Arabic to other languages in support to this claim ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice that he doesn't use the word 'Sea' or 'Spring'. Therefore Ai'nin does not only means 'Spring' or 'Sea' it also mean 'Water' 'A body of water'.

I had a look for the translation(s) of "عَيْنٍ" ('aynin). I found "spring" but couldn't find "sea" nor "water" in any translations I looked at (5). Could you tell me which translator/book you use ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Therefore it is not correct to say that Hamia'tin Ai'nin came to be identified with a sea only recently.

So why do older translations not show your version ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Glad you can see this. So I guess you would agree with me that the scientific miracles some (misguided) scholars try to interpret into the Quran are just not there ?

Regards: Airmano

-------------
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 10 December 2016 at 1:01pm

syed_z wrote:

At this point a question might come to our mind why is there a seeming contradiction appearing in following words of both Hadith:

He said: It sets in a spring of warm water. (Abu Dawud)

He said: It goes (down) till it prostrates itself (Bukhari)

It sets and it does because Allah wills, waiting to rise once again.

Yes, but Allah is the one who said the man went to where the sun sets and there were people there. This is an actual place. Allah reports he found it setting in warm muddy water. According to Allah the Quran is clear and he said what he meant and meant what he said.

In the Hadith, Muhammad is asking a specific question about the sun scientifically speaking and Muhammad answers his own question, because the man not knowing the answer refused to respond to the question.

It seems you are having to jump through a lot of semantic hoops to solve this problem. It doesn't really satisfy my investigation on truth. One can easily argue that the sun after setting in murky water can ask Allah for permission to rise. But we all know the sun is on its own predestined course and time and doesn't need to ask Allah for any permission to do what God already commanded it to do at creation.

This is, of course, only the tip of the iceberg of questions; for instance, there is Allah's implied views of the Christian trinity such as it being the son, mother and father. Why did Allah question Jesus about him and his mother being two gods with Allah being the third of the three. There was never such a trinity as the son, mother and father.
PBUY,
Saved

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 19 December 2016 at 8:26pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Quaran 31 says - "Obey Allah and the messenger."
That is different from what Jesus said. Jesus did not say "obey me to find the way" He said I AM The way. Be one in me" !

Hi Asep.
You ask if I consider that Jesus had not died then who was the man crucified? because some Christians say that Jesus died on the cross. The Christian / Bible belief is that Jesus died and was resurrected again. I hope that answers your question.
You ask , Is there word of God in the Gospel that Jesus will come down again to earth?
the answer is yes. It is found in John 14.1.Revelation 1:7 and Acts 1:9-11
Peace to you Asep.

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 19 December 2016 at 8:30pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Yes. You need to prove !

Hi Asep
I don�t believe you that the Quran is not difficult to learn. Most Muslims cannot even read or understand classical Arabic, so how can it not be difficult to learn. Most Muslims just memorise the Arabic Quran like parrots without even knowing what it means. Why would God only use Arabic for his Word? To only understand it in one language proves to me it cannot be the Word of God. How clumsy!
I provided you with five expert translations. The translations are clear.
I don not believe Soloman could hear the conversation of ants � because ants do not have conversation. Ants do not say � �lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not.�
Miracles are where God uses nature in a super natural way. Ants do not have conversations. So God could not provide a miracle for Soloman to understand ant language � because ant language does not exist.
Actually the miracles of Jesus make more sense than the �miracles� in the Quran because they show God super naturally using nature. The Quran �miracles do not do this� you cannot compare Soloman and the ants with Jesus because people do die � so for Jesus to rasies them from the dead makes sense. However ants do not talk. So for Soloman to understand themdoes not make sense.
Asep. The Hadith which states that "he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails" is reliable Sahihhadith. It is Sahih Bukhari !
Also can you please tell me where in Sahih Bukhari it says �love people as yourself� I knowit says this in the Bible. Where is it in Sahih Bukhari ?

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 19 December 2016 at 8:33pm

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

Saved wrote:

Dear Saved,

If Jesus is the son of God, what the name of the family tree between God and Mary's parents?

Regards,
Asep

Jesus was divine and human. The family trees in the Bible are his human family tree (geneology)

Dear 2Acts,

I understand if it means like that, however "Jesus was divine and human." That means that God entered into the body of Jesus?

Regards,
Asep

Hi Asep.
You ask what about those who make Jesus is God (not the son of God) ? What thoses people believe is not important because it is what the Bible says that is important. And the Bible is clear. It says he is God The Son. This does not mean God had a child � like a father and mother have a child. It means that Christ Jesus is the exact emanace of the father.

Looking at Quran 5:72-75 it looks as though there are both some similarities and differences with the Bible.
Peace to you Asep.

Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 19 December 2016 at 8:56pm

syed_z wrote:

airmano wrote:

Syed_z on 18:65

To start: The translation I trust the most is the word by word translation in http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=86 - Corpus Quran which leaves the interpetation to the reader. There the word "source/spring" and "mudd(y)" show up explicitly.

I guess you have found your translation of 18:65 on a http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/86/ - Website like this. [/QUOTE -
You wouldn't
say about just trusting one translation had you known the reality of Arabic Language. The classical
Arabic Language is immensely rich and deep. The modern limited languages
of today cannot explain each and every word of the Quran due to their
being limited.As for your 18:65 translation, I would like to
admit that I was referring to Asad's Translation and it is one of those I
referred to is because of the words� "it appeared to him" as that is a
correct translation of the word Wajadaha in English (for English readers), as English did not even exist at
the time of Prophet Muhammad. I did not take it from the website, I own a copy of Assad's translation.

[QUOTE=airmano]Looking at the individual translations therein
you'll find that the vast majority translates it as something like
"spring of muddy water".
First, can you explain how you can logically identify/link the word "spring" in sea ?
http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/86/ - [/QUOTE -
My dear friend had you done some more research on Black
Sea's water you would not be asking that question. You should know a
fact about black sea which is unusual for a sea to have. I had
shared a link earlier on Black Sea which not only shows the sun as 'it
appears' setting in it but also a couple of facts mentioned about it.

"Looking at this particular body of water at a map, one could
almost mistake it as a lake. It's surrounded by land by all sides, making its
main source of water the rivers, which pours in fresh water. It does, however,
get its fair share of salt water through Bosphorous Strait, a
one-kilometer-wide waterway connecting it to the Mediterranean Sea.

Arthur Capet, first author of the publication on the decline
of oxygen in the Black Sea and researcher at MAST, explained that fresh water
settles in the upper layers of the body of water without mixing with the denser
salt water of the lower layers. Furthermore, permanent stratification keeps the
deep waters of the Black Sea deprived of oxygen and marine life tends to
develop above this imaginary line."

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27989/20160902/oh-black-sea-losing-habitable-waters.htmThis Body of Water, is unlike other seas as its main sources are fresh water as compared to its source of salty waters. Its formation is very different causing it to appear darker than other bodies on a satellite.This
Hami'atin A'inin which is translated as "A spring" "Muddy" or a "Dark"
"Turbid Sea" is basically to our understanding a body of water which is
darker. Why is it? Because of high algae concentration which is also a fact about this sea unlike others. The word Hami'atin would not have been used had its water not been darker and would have been like other seas. The
lesson that Allah is trying to teach us is to look for a body of water
which is darker and NOT whether it is a sea or a spring or a lake or
water falls or etc etc. It so happens to be that it has been identified,
throughout the history by many Islamic Scholars, with a body of water
which in our times is called the Black Sea. Another interesting thing to note is that Maududi translates the same Verse as: "he saw it setting in dark turbid waters"Notice that he doesn't use the word 'Sea' or 'Spring'. Therefore Ai'nin does not only means 'Spring' or 'Sea' it also mean 'Water' 'A body of water'.But why is Allah
(swt) guided our scholars to identify it with Black Sea? What is the
purpose of the story? Is it just to tell you a good bed time story? Is
it just to teach you science? No, Obviously no. Its being done to help
us identify the main agents of corruption called Gog and Magog, as they
are one of the signs of the last days. This is not our discussion so we
will leave it at that.
[QUOTE=airmano]Looking at the translations that get closer to your version:

The Shakir translation goes: "down into a black sea", explicitly not "the black sea" (If Mohammed wanted to express so didn't the Black Sea have an (Arabic) name ?

Al-Muntakhab says:
"He took the lead in an expedition toward he west until he reached a body of water -said to be the Atlantic Ocean, or more likely a mirky land abounding in swamps"
Again in stark contrast to your claim.

Looking at the translation that comes closest to your claim we find
Shabbir Ahmed: (Conquering land to the West toward Lydia, he reached
as far as the Black Sea.) The sun was setting and it appeared to him as
if it was setting in the dark waters.
Looking at the wiki entry on Shabbir Ahmed we find that he started to learn Arabic in 1970, so a recent translation.

Another one along this line is the translation from Muhammad Assad, who published his translation in 1980.

So, besides the many "murky waters" there are only the two recent
translations which may insinuate "Black Sea". It is however surprising
that these translations always pop up (as the Quranic Miracles) when the
error becomes obvious and can be seen worldwide.

http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/86/ - [/QUOTE -
Thats a good point you made. I appreciate your efforts in trying to
show me what you think is correct. But I would like to help you in
understanding as to why Shabbir identified as this body of water with
Black Sea.Let me correct you here, I have used Asad translation
to explain you the words 'It Appeared to him' so you would understand
that the Sun does not enter the sea. Asad in his Message of the Quran
which is his official commentary on the Quran (on Surah Kahf) never
identified this body of water with Black Sea. He just used the
translation of Ai'nin as 'Sea' and not 'Spring' like others have and that is obviously due to richness of the Arabic language. So
why did Shabbir who appeared to study in 1970 identify it as Black Sea?
The answer is given by Maulana Maududi in his Tafheem Ul Quran in the
following words:<span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:
Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;
mso-ansi-:EN-US;mso-fareast-:EN-US;mso-bidi-:AR-SA">Ibn
Jarir Tabari and Ibn Kathir have recorded the event, and Yaqut has mentioned it
in his Mu jam-ul-Buldan that when after the conquest of Azerbaijan, Hadrat
`Umar sent Suraqah bin `Amr, in 22 A.H. on an expedition to Derbent, <span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:
Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;
mso-ansi-:EN-US;mso-fareast-:EN-US;mso-bidi-:AR-SA">Shehrbraz
informed him that he had already gathered full information about the wall built
by Zul-Qarnain, through a man, who could supply all the necessary details and
then the man was actually presented before `Abdur Rehman. (Tabari, Vol. III,
pp. 235-239; AI-Bidayah wan-Nihayah, Vol. VII, pp. 122-125, and Mu
jam-ul-Buldan, under Bab-ul-Abwab: Derbent)The fact of this
matter is that the earliest Muslims had already identified through their
spiritual insight (as they were much stronger in faith that Muslims of
today) that cities like 'Derbent' meaning 'Closed Gates' (a city which still exists today) were iron walls
made in openings of Caucuses Mountains which stretch between Black Sea and Capsian Sea. Such iron walls were made to prevent wild tribes of Europe from plundering and pillaging the lands south of Caucuses (like Iran, Middle East etc). Most definitely scholars like Shabbir had read the works of scholars of the past, just like Maududi did.Therefore it is not correct to say that Hamia'tin Ai'nin came to be identified with a sea only recently. 
[QUOTE=airmano]So, no, the Black Sea interpretation is the usual
stretching of the Arabic Language combined with retrofitting the facts
to the Quran. And even if it was the black sea: The sun still doesn't
settle in it.

Airmano

Look my friend, understanding the Quran based
purely on scientific terms is not what the Quran was revealed for.
Anyone who has that approach is mistaken. Quran is not a book of geology
or science, it is a book of guidance. It just happens to be that many
revelations in the Quran are in conformity with the modern scientific findings.�

The Quran says of it self it is plain and clear S.12.1, SS27.1 and 41.3.No matter how Muslims try to explain the problem away, the Quran is quite clear. It says the sun sank into a muddy pond! We all know this is not true. The conclusion is that either the Quran is not clear, or it is wrong about the sun sinking into a pond. Either way � the Quran is wrong.

Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 26 December 2016 at 5:09pm

2Acts wrote:

syed_z wrote:

Look my friend, understanding the Quran based
purely on scientific terms is not what the Quran was revealed for.
Anyone who has that approach is mistaken. Quran is not a book of geology
or science, it is a book of guidance. It just happens to be that many
revelations in the Quran are in conformity with the modern scientific findings.�

Allah states in the Quran that the traveler found the sun setting in muddy warm water where there were people. This is an actual place the traveler went to get to where the sun sets in water. If any Muslim could show me this place I'll convert to Islam. I think you have touched on a discrepancy nerve.

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 27 December 2016 at 3:43pm

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Quaran 31 says - "Obey Allah and the messenger."
That is different from what Jesus said. Jesus did not say "obey me to find the way" He said I AM The way. Be one in me" !

Dear 2Acts,

Thank you for your explanation.
Peace be with you.

Regards,
Asep

Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 27 December 2016 at 3:53pm

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

asep48garut60 wrote:

2Acts wrote:

Yes. You need to prove !

Dear 2Acts,

You said: �I don�t believe you that the Quran is not difficult to learn. Most Muslims cannot even read or understand classical Arabic, so how can it not be difficult to learn.�
Maybe you do not know that now a lot of muslims who memorized the Quran without having to look at the Quran.

Quran 54:17
�And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember, then is there any one who will remember?�

You said: �Most Muslims just memorise the Arabic Quran like parrots without even knowing what it means. Why would God only use Arabic for his Word? To only understand it in one language proves to me it cannot be the Word of God. How clumsy!�
Those who do not know the meaning of the Quran readings are those who don't have the desire to know, or the parents, the scholars and teachers of the Quran that do not instruct their students to learn about the meaning of Quran.

Quran 39:9
"Say: 'Are the same the people who know with the people who do not know?' Indeed, only those who in their right mind can accept this lesson."

Allah revealed the Quran in Arabic for the Prophet Muhammad because he was an Arab (as an authentic language of the Quran).
All languages in the world may translate it, but Allah maintains the authentic of Quran language that can't be permuted by the writings of human desire which would destroy the authenticity of His word.

Quran 15:9
�Verily, We, it is We who have sent down the Dhikr (the Quran) and surely, We will guard it.�

Quran 6:115
�And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.�

All the authentic language of the Quran is the same in this world, which can distinguish the meaning is just the translation into respective languages.

Miracles means something extraordinary which all beings don't have the power to make it because it is beyond their ability except God. Miracles can only given by God.

Sometimes some people who feel already know all natural phenomena which are a lot of mystery, although there are still many unknown by humans, not all of God's creation can be investigated by science, as an example about Roh (the spirit) is in every humans body, it'll never revealed. because human knowledge is limited.

Quran 17:85
�And they ask you concerning the Roh (the Spirit), Say:�The Roh (the Spirit) is one of the thing, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord.� And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.�

Such hadith is doubtful, why? because there are lots of Hadith circulating since the Prophet Muhammad died till now, this is only a slander directed against the Prophet Muhammad. They are many hadiths by using the name of Bukhari, etc.

Now experts of hadith are holding a full investigation of the hadith is because there are parties who want to create and disseminate the hadiths false, both from the Islamic community itself (hypocrites) or from non-Muslims who deliberately to destroy Islam.

Narrated by Imam Bukhari:
"Whoever the person is lying deliberately by the name of me, then they will be placed in hell".

Narrated by Imam Muslim:
"Who is it who preach about me (Prophet) hadith, while he knew the message was false (lie), then he/she is among those who lie."

However, it is not true if we reject all hadiths because there is Allah's command to follow the Prophet.

(Quran 3:31).
"Say:" If you really love Allah, follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful ".

Therefore, to avoid any doubts about a hadith, for me personally very easily by looking at the "Matan" (content) from a hadith, if such hadith is not contradict with the Quran, with the hadiths more powerful, with principles of the basic teachings of Islam, then that hadith is shahih.

Some of the differences between the Quran and the hadith, among others:

1. The Quran is the definitive truth value (absolute), while the hadith is dhanni that require substantiation and justification of the Quran.
2. All the verses in the Quran must be used as guidelines for life, while the hadith are not all.
3. The Quran is authentic in lafadz, composition and editor, while the hadiths are not all, etc.

The Hadith stating that "he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails", it was said by someone, Bukhari didn't directly heard from the Prophet Muhammad, so such hadith is still doubtful because it would be contrary to the verses in the Quran below:

Quran 3:159
�And by the Mercy of Allah, you dealt with them gently. And had you been severe and harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about you, so pass over (their faults), and ask (Allah�s) Forgiveness for them, and consult them in affairs. Then when you have taken a decision, put your trust in Allah, certainly, Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).�

That verse was revealed related to prisoners of war who were not murdered by followers of Muhammad because he (Muhammad) received such revelation. Finally, they were ordered to return to their troops.

Quran 21:107
�And We have sent you (Muhammad) not but as a mercy for the �Alamin (mankind, jin, and all that exists)�.

Narrated by Bukhari from Aisha r.a. (Muhammad's wife) in the book Al Jami'us Shahih:
"It is the character of the Prophet sallallaahu 'alaihi wasallam as the contents of the words in the Quran".

Narrated by Bukhari from Abdullah bin 'Amr bin al-'As in the book "al-Kina" and "al-Adab al-Mufrad".
"People are loving will be loved by the Most Merciful Tabaraka wata'ala. Love them are in the earth, then They who are in the sky will love you."

"Love all the creatures in the earth, undoubtedly who are in heavens will love you".
(Shahih hadith, narrated by ath-Thabrani in al-Mu�jam al-Kabir, Shahiihul jaami� no. 896).

Peace be with you.

Regards,
Asep