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Secularism and the Decline of the West

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Topic: Secularism and the Decline of the West
Posted By: Angela
Subject: Secularism and the Decline of the West
Date Posted: 09 January 2006 at 2:17pm

This article is detailing the loss of faith in Europe.  Though it focuses on the decline of Christianity, I feel it runs a deeper course.  The decline in the belief of God is universally damaging to all three of the Peoples of the Book.  This trend should concern us all.  No wonder souls are turning to Islam in Europe, the soul aches for the Light of God.

Is God dead in Europe?

By James P. GannonMon Jan 9, 7:06 AM ET

Two snapshots from a recent tourist trip to Europe: We are in Prague, the lovely and lively capital of the Czech Republic, where the bars and cafes are full, the glitzy crystal and art shops are busy, and the dozens of historic cathedrals and churches are largely empty - except for gawking tourists snapping photos. In The Prague Post, an English-language weekly newspaper, a front-page article reports, in titillating detail, how the city has become Europe's new capital for pornographic filmmaking, while an op-ed examines why only 19% of the people in this once-religious country believe that God exists.

Change the scene to Rome. We are at the Vatican, swimming in a sea of 150,000 people waiting in St. Peter's Square for Pope Benedict XVI to appear at a special celebration for Catholic children who have made their first communion in the past year. Rock bands and kids' choirs entertain the faithful until a roar sweeps through the crowd at the first sighting of the "Popemobile," carrying the waving, white-robed Benedict down barricaded lanes through the throng. The crowd goes wild.

For an American Catholic visitor, Europe is a puzzling and sometimes discouraging place these days. Is God dead here? Many signs suggest that Europeans think so.

Decline in attendance

"Common wisdom has it that alcoholics outnumber practicing Christians and that more Czechs believe in UFOs than believe in God - and common wisdom may be correct," wrote Nate and Leah Seppanen Anderson in a Prague Post commentary; he's a freelance writer, and she's a political science professor at Wheaton College in Illinois and a specialist in Czech politics and society. Surveys show a sharp decline in church attendance and religious practice in most European countries. A series of Eurobarometer surveys since 1970 in five key countries (France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany and Italy) shows that regular church attendance fell from about 40% of the population to about half that figure. Declines were sharpest in predominantly Catholic nations.

Even so, how do we account for the extraordinary outpouring of grief at Pope John Paul II's death in April and the enthusiasm that his successor seems to evoke? Are these mere public spectacles, signifying nothing about Europe's drift from its religious roots, or are they signs of yearning for something more than peace, prosperity and la dolce vita?

As only an occasional visitor to Europe, I claim no expertise in these matters. But some who do see the emergence of a post-Christian era in Europe that has profound consequences for the continent and perhaps is an ominous portend for the United States. Where Europe has gone, America could be going - and that is a prospect that is frightening Christians and sharpening the religious divide in this country.

Western Europe, the cradle of modern Christianity, has become a "post-Christian society" in which the ruling class and cultural leaders are anti-religious or "Christophobic," writes George Weigel, a Catholic columnist and U.S. biographer of Pope John Paul II. In his new book, The Cube and the Cathedral: Europe, America, and Politics Without God, he argues that religious differences help explain the policy tensions between Europe and the United States.

"It would be too simple to say that the reason Americans and Europeans see the world so differently is that the former go to church on Sundays and the latter don't," Weigel writes. "But it would also be a grave mistake to think that the dramatic differences in religious belief and practice in the United States and Europe don't have something important to do with those different perceptions of the world - and the different policies to which those perceptions eventually lead."

A fierce controversy over any mention of Europe's Christian heritage erupted in 2004 when officials were drafting a constitution for the European Union, Weigel notes.

Any mention of the continent's religious past or contributions of Christian culture - in a preface citing the sources of Europe's distinct civilization - would be exclusionary and offensive to non-Christians, many argued. Former French president Valery Giscard d'Estaing, who presided over the process, summed up the dominant view: "Europeans live in a purely secular political system, where religion does not play an important role."

'Demographic suicide'

Among the consequences of Europe's abandonment of its religious roots and the moral code that derives therefrom is a plunge in its birth rates to below the replacement level. Abortion, birth control, acceptance of gay marriage and casual sex are driving the trend. Europe is "committing demographic suicide, systematically depopulating itself," according to Weigel.

United Nations population statistics back him up.

Not a single Western European country has a fertility rate sufficient to replace the current population, which demographers say requires 2.1 children per family. Germany, Russia, Spain, Poland and Italy all have rates of about 1.3 children, according to the U.N. The Czech Republic's is less than 1.2, and even Roman Catholic Ireland is at 1.9 children. (The U.S. rate, which has remained stable, is slightly more than 2 children per woman.)

Fifteen countries, "mostly located in Southern and Eastern Europe, have reached levels of fertility unprecedented in human history," according to the U.N.'s World Population Prospects 2004 revision.

As children grow scarce and longevity increases in Europe, the continent is becoming one vast Leisure World. By 2050, the U.N. projects, more than 40% of the people in Italy will be 60 or older. By mid-century, populations in 25 European nations will be lower than they are now; Russia will lose 31 million people, Italy 7.2 million, Poland 6.6 million and Germany 3.9 million. So Europe is abandoning religion, growing older, shrinking and slowly killing itself. These are signs of a society in eclipse - the Roman Empire writ large. Is this any model for America?

In his 2001 book, The Death of the West, conservative commentator Patrick Buchanan argues that a European-style "de-Christianization of America" is the goal of many liberals - and they are succeeding.

Court decisions that have banned school-sponsored prayer, removed many Nativity scenes from public squares, and legalized gay marriage are part of that pattern, as is the legal effort to erase "In God We Trust" from U.S. currency and "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

Europe is showing us where this path leads. It is not the right path for America.

James P. Gannon is a retired journalist and author ofA Life in Print: Selections from the Work of a Reporter, Columnist and Editor.




Replies:
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 10 January 2006 at 7:54am

"It would be too simple to say that the reason Americans and Europeans see the world so differently is that the former go to church on Sundays and the latter don't," Weigel writes. "But it would also be a grave mistake to think that the dramatic differences in religious belief and practice in the United States and Europe don't have something important to do with those different perceptions of the world - and the different policies to which those perceptions eventually lead."

Quite true. The religious culture of Europe is declining but why?



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 10 January 2006 at 9:12am

I think its declining as the focus on logic and reason are continually separated from religion.  I know in the northeast US, people who consider themselves educated say religion is superstition and irrationality.  There is a push by "intellectuals" to free society from this superstitious belief that holds them back.

What they don't understand is that it is completely rational to have faith and believe in a Supreme Being.  No one would call the Dali Lama irrational or uneducated. 

Also, there is a weakening of morals and a push for expressing yourself in ways that are contrary to many faiths.  You cannot be religious and accept homosexuality as a normal acceptable behaviour.  So, the more people who accept homosexual partnerships and two people living together unmarried, the less people believe in the basic laws of God.

We face this in my own family.  I lived with my husband before we were married.  We looked at each other one day and decided we could no longer live in sin.  We were married within two weeks of that decision.  My Uncle and his girlfriend have been living together for 15 years.  When they asked us why and we told them we were setting things right and repenting, they acted like we slapped them in the face.  Most of the family disagrees but its not socially acceptable to tell my Uncle and his girlfriend that we all think they are sinning.

I see the trend starting here in the US too, but luckily, the trend that was surging in the 90s of anti-religion is actually swung back and more people are going to church, mosque and synagogue.

So, why did 9/11 not affect Europe similarly, or Madrid or London?  What is different about Europe? Perhaps the state imposed atheism of the Soviet Blok, or is it the push for one European state????



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 10 January 2006 at 11:17am

A few points here.

9/11 was a phenonmenon. People went to church because of the collective conscious of the preciousness of life. I wasn't impressed. In catestrophic circumstances people all of a sudden remember God. But prior to that, people go about daily lives forgetting. As for the atheist intellectuals they are few and they are not even a bother.

In regards to our moral values in respect with homosexuality I myself am a different being than most and I do consider myself unorthodox ini this matter. I know of many gay students whom I have befriended. I cannot say that for myself which right for me, that someone who shares a different conviction be it religion or sex etc cannot judge another human based on how I believe. I don't think if a society which acts on such principle sare immoral per say. For example shouldn't we give the same respect to peoples of different faiths? Why not those who share a different view on sexuality? Of course this doesn't solve the problem of the declining of religion but I wanted to explain.

I believe what the problem here is not sexuality of the emergence of Islam in Europe but is the problem of forgetting God. Like I said before this phenonmenon was the same in the U.S even past the 90's. Religion was in fact on a slight decline. Until 9/11 there was a 50% increase in church activity. The forgetfulness of God is where it starts and from there can we see the decline in society in all respects of morality. Why is Europe forgetting God?



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 10 January 2006 at 11:45am

Perhaps Europe has forgotten God because they feel they no longer need him?

Catastrophies bring a consciousness about things that people forget about when things are going well.  The frailty of human life and the bonds of family.  Its a reality check that unfortunately often humans need.  It might not have impressed you, it might not have impressed God. 

Surely those that are still going back to church after 5 years, that's a wonderful thing.  The women and men who have searched for answers and found God, surely that's a good thing. 

Humans are by nature arrogant and greedy.  We are selfish and things that get in the way of our personal gratification are often unwanted and inconvenient. 

The Christian and Muslim faiths teach charity, love, piety and sacrifice.  These concepts fly in the face of the materialistic western societies of the US and Europe. 

And as far as sexuality goes, don't get my wrong.  Many of my friends from college were homosexual or bisexual.  I am still friends with many of them.  Its love the person, not the sin.  I love them very much and my heart aches at times for them and their trials.  But, I have to sit back and say that I have no illusions to the fact it is still wrong.

So, why do you think Europeans are forgetting God????

I know my church is growing quickly in Europe, we have several temples in construction currently.  Which means that membership levels have risen to require them.  I also know Islam is growing strong in many European countries.  So why the dual trends???



Posted By: skygazer
Date Posted: 10 January 2006 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

So, why do you think Europeans are forgetting God????

I know my church is growing quickly in Europe, we have several temples in construction currently.  Which means that membership levels have risen to require them.  I also know Islam is growing strong in many European countries.  So why the dual trends???

Christianity, with all that jibberish about the son of God and blood sacrifice (all taken from Roman pagansim), is too lame for people to buy in the 21st century. I don't think people are turning away from God, just from all that nonsense. 



Posted By: amlhabibi2000
Date Posted: 11 January 2006 at 1:20am

 

 

You have to ask yourself if Allah, God is a loving Allah, God, the Creator why does he need a blood sacrifice in the first place??????

People may animalistically want someone to die of vengence but that is about it.

LIfe is to be lived and lived well within the Realms of the Kingdom of Allah, God, The Creator I know.

Besides if you truelly understood just how many lives have really been sacrificed then maybe everyone would change their tune.

Probably some one trillion since the beginning of time......

Does their sacrifice not count for something?

I say it does and I say they are all sons and daughters of Allah, God, the Creator none is exempt for He Fashions everything.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

 



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Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 11 January 2006 at 9:02am
Originally posted by amlhabibi2000 amlhabibi2000 wrote:

�


I say they are all sons and daughters of Allah, God, the Creator none is exempt for He Fashions everything.


Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi


�



please stop spreading ur pagan belief


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 11 January 2006 at 10:09am

I agree withskygazer..

It has alot to do with Chrisitianity and the church's own disconnect with Allah. It became political in a sense of owning kings, being its own government, controlling property, bankrupting people, oppressing the poor.

They sold people a bunch of man-made rules. Frankly people rebelled. How can you say that if I pay the church money I'll be saved? How does that work? People cannot stand the evangelicals who get in peoples' faces and say they will go to hell if they do not believe in Jesus Christ.  If someone told you these things you would not accept them either.

You have to look at the history to get an idea.  It is not something that developed over a decade or two. They turned away from the Church. When people want religion taken out it is because the Christian stuff is really off. The corruption was pretty intense.

For instance the Catholic Church decided not to allow priests to marry. The reason is that inheritance with through the family. So the kids (sons) would inherit the land. Thus the Church would not be the ruling land class anymore in Europe. They gave it flavorings as they were 'apostles' and should marry 'god'. Go figure. 

Then for women they were really 2nd class citizens. Virtually property. The Church demed them 2nd class by blaming the problems on women (as it was all Eve's fault for tempting Adam). Then setting up that women are either virgins or prostitutes. Not full, sexual beings. Like marry them only cause you have to.. very subtle messages that became a norm.

I think plus how you ask people a question you'll get different answers like:Do you believe in a Surpreme Being? Is different then if you believe in "God"? The word "God" I associate with the Church. I am sure for others that is likewise. Or ask what happens after we die? What do people think.. depends on how you phrase a question.

 



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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 11 January 2006 at 10:43am

skygazer,

I don't think my church would be growing so quickly if no one could swallow the "nonsense" as you put it.  I remain completely respectful of the beliefs of Islam.  I ask that you do the same for me.  I do not insult the Prophets, please to not insult my beliefs.

I am not talking about a turning from Christianity, but a turning from God in general.  Even in this country, I know a number of people who are of Middle Eastern descent who are not practicing Muslims even if members of their family are. 

In this modern world, I see men and women who are continually turning from religion and from any belief in a Supreme Being.  Son or No Son. 

I have a Jewish girl I know, who insists she is only Jewish by race.  She's an atheist, she believes that God is a myth to comfort the uneducated.  Her boyfriend is an ex-christian Athiest and believes the same.  With us at the time was a man from Egypt, also an athiest even though his parents were devout muslims.  They had disowned him.  They were with a group of students that I was with in Moscow back in 1997.  Almost 9 years later, they still all have the same attitudes about God and rationality.

The question becomes, why?  They are from different demographics of race, religion and country, yet they have all rationalized that God doesn't exist and we are a result of a cosmic coincidence.

Why is this trend growing so quickly in Europe?



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 January 2006 at 2:22pm

Angela my apologies to any Muslims here who have disrespected your faith. Hayfa with all due respect you show no justice in the propagation of Islam by denouncing Christianity like that. We Muslims know that yes we have some disagreements with Christianity but our goal is the same: The union with God, the Lord of the universe. I'm quite sick of hearing Muslims judge others when there are some Muslims here who don't practice their faith and we end up being hypocrites. Hayfa if you pray five times a day including doing your Obligatory and other prayers and are commissioned by God to judge then by all means do so, but please do not judge here. I only say this in the friendly sense.

Angela Skygazer has no religion and therefore is chaotic in his/her belief, he she thinks that religion is superstition and is the very ideal person for this article. The reason people are forgetting God is because they are losing the battle of remembrance. When one loses this battle then the war on remembering God is lost until a battle can be won by remembrance. In order to win such a war the individual must be aware through the actions of the rleigious congregation. I belioeve the churches of Europe are perhaps too much traditional, rather many defenders of religious faith should propagate their faith in unorthodox fashion. Some in New England have used the idea of going into Pubs and talking about Jesus there.

I believe that when we start in areas not ideal to the average congreagtionlist I believe we can make a small difference. But like I said before if we want to change on a grandscale then a catestrophic event has to happen which effetcs the lives of millions of people like 9/11 did. Either something like that or close to it.



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 11 January 2006 at 2:39pm

Change has to come gradually and it has to start in the home. A couple needs to focus on their children and their faith.  Children do what their parents do. 

I see it all the time.  Families who don't focus on having faith breaking apart at the seams.  Maybe its because I'm in Utah now I see a great deal more people exercising their faith.

One thing that awes me about Islam is the focus of the family.  The simplicity in the message.  The devotion of those who truly believe and want to better themselves.

My egyptian friend I mentioned that was an athiest told me I was an idiot for believing in God.  I told him that if I was wrong, no harm had come to me because I believed.  If anything my quality of life has been better when I believe than it was during those dark years where God wasn't part of my life.

Our missionaries all over the world are finding people who are hungering for the Gospel and for God.  Why then are the churches and synagogues and mosques so empty? 

I think you might have a point on the older churches being caught up in traditions and stagnation. 



Posted By: skygazer
Date Posted: 12 January 2006 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Angela Skygazer has no religion and therefore is chaotic in his/her belief, he she thinks that religion is superstition and is the very ideal person for this article.

wrong again. I never said religion is superstition. And I'm not chaotic in my belief at all.

God is available to everyone; God is the hub of a wheel and we are the spokes. Each person has a different perspective and each travels a different path but if we keep focused on the hub (God) we all end up in the same place.

I have respect for Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and lots of other religions. Some forms of Christianity are OK too; just the ones that think they're the only ones who God cares about are really, really offensive.

So don't put words in my mouth, puhleeze.



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 13 January 2006 at 3:43am
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Our missionaries all over the world are finding people who are hungering for the Gospel and for God.  Why then are the churches and synagogues and mosques so empty?   

I think people realise that they can believe in God and have faith without going to some kind of temple.

In Europe, if you think people aren't religious or not believe in God in general is because the numbers are down in churches, mosques or synagues or other temples, I think is unrealistic, you do not know what they do in their homes.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 13 January 2006 at 7:36pm

Skygazer then accept my apologies then.

Angel I believe the article is not discussing why people aren't going to church, but the collective spiritual decrease in the whole of that society. The same truth can be said about American pre 9/11. Before 9/11 the attendance in the churches were down but after 9/11 there was I believe a 60% increase in congregations. To me that is "unreal" because it took a catastrophe to make people remember God. I understand that you believe people don't need to congregate at a temple just to remember God but I believe that it helps because it can in some ways stabilize the familiarity of that union with God by watching the examples of other members. I also believe that, this uniformity can be helpful to people because they can count on each other to pull each other through spiritual crisis. If you don't have this you cannot always make it in religion.



Posted By: skygazer
Date Posted: 14 January 2006 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Skygazer then accept my apologies then.

Accepted. And my apologies for our previous exchange in the general forum.



Posted By: skygazer
Date Posted: 14 January 2006 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Our missionaries all over the world are finding people who are hungering for the Gospel and for God.  Why then are the churches and synagogues and mosques so empty? 

Because your missionaries coerce them. They won't give them assistance unless they attend bible study classes. I've read plenty about this; they deny their "charity" to anyone who won't at least pretend to go along with them. They exploit the suffering of others to promote their agenda.



Posted By: pauline35
Date Posted: 15 January 2006 at 6:32am
ANGELA WROTE:
What they don't understand is that it is completely rational to have faith and believe in a Supreme Being. No one would call the Dali Lama irrational or uneducated.

BECAUSE THE DALAI LAMA IS RATIONAL AND EDUCATED. THEY KEEP LEARNING EVERY DAY. THEY ARE NOT A HYPOCRITE AND THEY DON'T TEACH 'HYPOCRISY'. THEY TEACH THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH IS OUR TEACHER.

ANGELA WROTE:
Our missionaries all over the world are finding people who are hungering for the Gospel and for God. Why then are the churches and synagogues and mosques so empty?

I GUESS THE TRUTH IS THE CHURCHES ARE GETTING EMPTY BUT FORTUNATELY NOT WITH THE MOSQUES AND TEMPLES.




Posted By: pauline35
Date Posted: 15 January 2006 at 6:49am
One Christian told me that he is not married and will remain unmarried because he believes armageddon is near and therefore it is useless to be married. He also said "To the hell of other religions other than the Christian".

It is possible that some are probably thinking that since Armageddon is drawing near, it is useless to go to the Church. If this goes on, one day we will find these believers will stop going to work because Armageddon is near. No work, no money increases poverty. Remain unmarried is like having a homosexual life that have no children or stop producing human race. Life is really ending before Armageddon.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 15 January 2006 at 9:30am
Originally posted by skygazer skygazer wrote:

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Our missionaries all over the world are finding people who are hungering for the Gospel and for God.  Why then are the churches and synagogues and mosques so empty? 

Because your missionaries coerce them. They won't give them assistance unless they attend bible study classes. I've read plenty about this; they deny their "charity" to anyone who won't at least pretend to go along with them. They exploit the suffering of others to promote their agenda.

Actually, Stargazer you are completely false in this statement.  If a Muslim family walked into my local Bishop and explained that they just couldn't make ends meet, they were in need of help.  My bishop would give them access to the Church food stores, help with Utilities and give them access to the Employment Services and other programs that we have.  Before I was a member of the church, I was actually assisted by being sent to a doctor for free because the missionaries who stopped by found out that I was sick and couldn't afford medical care.  We offer true charity, that expects nothing in return.  We sent $900,000 in aid to the Earthquake victims and we have a STRICT no proselyting to Muslims policy. 

We do not coerce, conversion is a personal and very spiritual journey.  They teach the lessons of what our faith is and what we believe, but it is up to the person to pray to God for their answer.  We have grown from a mere 3 million to almost 13 million in under 20 years.  You can't do this through coercion. 

Pauline35, I don't know who this Christian man is that you talked to but he's certainly not part of my Church.  We are required to marry and be sealed in the temple to our families.  Even if Armageddon was tomorrow, you are still required to get married.  And most Judeo Christian faiths truly misunderstand exactly what Armageddon and the Last Days really mean.  Luckily, we believe there will be a thousand years of peace before the Final Judgement, so people will have a chance to truly understand before they must go before God.

I'm sorry, you've had such a bad experience with Christians.  It must be a sad state of affairs in your country.  However, unlike Islam, you cannot Judge every christian sect by the beliefs of one of them.  There are certainly enough that would tell you that I'm a polygamist devil worshiper, even though my Church is founded by Christ and that we no longer practice polygamy out of respect for the law.



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 15 January 2006 at 10:21am

Angela can you explain this?

>>>However, unlike Islam, you cannot Judge every christian sect by the beliefs of one of them. <<<<<



Posted By: skygazer
Date Posted: 15 January 2006 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Originally posted by skygazer skygazer wrote:

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Our missionaries all over the world are finding people who are hungering for the Gospel and for God.  Why then are the churches and synagogues and mosques so empty? 

Because your missionaries coerce them. They won't give them assistance unless they attend bible study classes. I've read plenty about this; they deny their "charity" to anyone who won't at least pretend to go along with them. They exploit the suffering of others to promote their agenda.

Actually, Stargazer you are completely false in this statement.  If

You're either an ignorant fool or a liar. There are plenty of materials confirming this.

In either case I'm not going to waste time on the likes of you.



Posted By: skygazer
Date Posted: 15 January 2006 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Angela can you explain this?

>>>However, unlike Islam, you cannot Judge every christian sect by the beliefs of one of them. <<<<<

I can explain it: she's a religious bigot.



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 15 January 2006 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by skygazer skygazer wrote:

I can explain it: she's a religious bigot.

How nice, is that muslim behaviour ??



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: pauline35
Date Posted: 15 January 2006 at 9:21pm
Dear Angela, you see this is what I mean, WHAT GOES AROUND, WHAT COMES AROUND?

I FULLY SUPPORT STARGAZER AND I DECLARED IT IS POINTLESS TO LIASE WITH PEOPLE WHO HAS STONE AGE MENTALITY. LOOK UPON YOURSELF AND FIND IT AS THE REALITY.


Posted By: pauline35
Date Posted: 16 January 2006 at 2:28am
ANGELA WROTE:Pauline35, I don't know who this Christian man is that you talked to but he's certainly not part of my Church. We are required to marry and be sealed in the temple to our families. Even if Armageddon was tomorrow, you are still required to get married. And most Judeo Christian faiths truly misunderstand exactly what Armageddon and the Last Days really mean. Luckily, we believe there will be a thousand years of peace before the Final Judgement, so people will have a chance to truly understand before they must go before God.

ANGELA, THAT MAN IS A TRUE CHRISTIAN WHO GOES TO CHRISTIAN CHURCH ALMOST EVERY SUNDAY. YOU SOUND LIKE ANYTHING THAT IS NEGATIVE DOES NOT BELONGS TO YOUR CHURCH AND SOMETHING THAT IS POSITIVE COMES FROM YOUR CHURCH. I GUESS YOU HAVEN'T GOT ANY CLUE WHY THIS STORY IS BEING TOLD.

IS CHRISTIAN CHURCH IN UNITED STATES DIFFERENT FROM CHRISTIAN CHURCH IN OVERSEAS? IS YOUR CHURCH PREACHING A DIFFERENT CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY? OR ARE THEY ALL THE SAME, PREACHING FROM THE SAME BIBLE?

WHAT IF THAT MAN CAME FROM YOUR CHURCH? OR HE VISITED YOUR CHURCH BEFORE?

YOU SOUND LIKE YOU ARE DISCONNECTING OTHER CHRISTIAN CHURCH FROM YOUR CHURCH BUT BOTH STILL PREACH FROM THE SAME BIBLE. DO YOU NEED ME TO ENLIGHTEN?


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 16 January 2006 at 7:16am

Bismillah,

Sallams all. 

I don't think Skygazer is Muslim.  What religion are you?  Angela is open to learning about other faiths.  Why are you so insulting?  Do you hate all Mormons, and doesn't that make you the religious bigot?  If you take a more positive attitude, Sky, it would be better for everyone.  Your comment about God being the hub was interesting.  Could you elaborate?

I personally, as an X-Mormon, have never heard that being Mormon is a requirement for financial help or that when people join they get more financial help.  I could be wrong because I have only seen a small part of this world, but I have seen many Mormon missionaries and how they operate in this part of it --  America.

I have no idea about European Godliness.  I have not been there, and the friends I have from there are Muslim, so they are God fearing worshippers.



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 16 January 2006 at 8:36am

Originally posted by pauline35 pauline35 wrote:



YOU SOUND LIKE YOU ARE DISCONNECTING OTHER CHRISTIAN CHURCH FROM YOUR CHURCH BUT BOTH STILL PREACH FROM THE SAME BIBLE. DO YOU NEED ME TO ENLIGHTEN?

Actually, we don't teach from the Same Bible, we have additional texts.  Again, you obviously know nothing about my Church.  We have the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.....in addition to the Bible.

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Angela can you explain this?

>>>However, unlike Islam, you cannot Judge every christian sect by the beliefs of one of them. <<<<<

No offense was meant, this is actually a compliment.  You don't have a defined hierarchy in your religion.  Therefore, if you want to know what a Muslim believes, you read the Quran and the ahadiths and you really have everything you need to know.  On the other hand, Christians are very ordered for the most part.  You have Catholics, Protestants, Evangelicals, Born Agains....and Mormons.  All take the Bible and then interpret it differently.  Some have further writings like the Russian Orthodox Church, Catholic Church and Mormons.  Then you have Churches like the Methodist or Baptists that reject all but the Old and New Testament of the King James Bible or the New International Version. 

So, also, to Pauline.  No, not every church teaches from the Same bible or the same principles. 

I was told by a Methodist minister that you do not need to be baptized to be a Christian, however, the Russian Church, Catholic Church and my Church absolutely require it.

And in response to Skygazer.  How many Mormon missionaries have you talked to?????  Me, I've known more than my fair share.  My husband served a mission, as did my brother in law, most of my friends, sister in law, and my youngest brother in law is preparing for his.  I've personally taken the lessons as a convert.  This is not a brainwashing session.  They give you a Book of Mormon.  Explain the Restoration, the Nature of God and the Plan of Salvation.  They explain the eternalness of the family and then they ask you to pray about it.  There is no coercion, in fact, there are interviews to make sure you fully understand the committment you are making through the baptism.  I was not pressured into baptism.  Even with Mormon relatives, they respected my wishes.  I was baptized because I came to believe independently of anyone else.  All I had to do was say I did not feel the Spirit and they left me alone (the missionaries), but when I felt the spirit, I knew. 

I'm the last person to be bullied into something, the harder I rebel. 

YES, my Church is different from ALL other Christian Churches.  We have Prophets, Apostles and Temples.  We have Holy Ordinances not found with any other church.  Eternal Marriage, Endowment and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  We have the Restored Gospel and Priesthoods.  We have truths lost in what we call the Great Apostacy.

So, no, we are not the same as the Man you know Pauline, and yes.  In that respect, I do believe my church superior to his.  You can blame me for that, but you feel your religion is superior to mine.  Its the same thing.  Most christian churches are teaching false doctrine from a corrupted bible and doctrines. 

I could not believe what I believe if I didn't believe they were false.  So, sue me, I have a right to believe what I feel is the truth.  As do you, that's the Glory of the free will given to mankind by God.  Satan's plan was to force belief and rob us of the tests of faith and obedience required to progress eternally.



Posted By: pauline35
Date Posted: 18 January 2006 at 5:14pm
ANGELA WROTE:
Most christian churches are teaching false doctrine from a corrupted bible and doctrines.

GOTCHA...ANGELA...TSK...TSK...TSK...YOU ARE A REAL HYPOCRITE (SO SUE ME TOO) AND THIS TIME, OH! MAN..YOU ARE REALLY OVER SPOKEN. DID YOU NOT JUST BETRAY CHRISTIANITY? TRUE CHRISTIAN WILL NOT BETRAY THEIR OWN RELIGION.

NO HEART-FEELINGS OKAY. IT'S JUST A DISCUSSION, SO OBVIOUSLY YOU ARE NOT A TRUE CHRISTIAN BUT WHY DID YOU CLAIM TO BE ONE SINCE YOUR CHURCH IS NOT A CHRISTIAN CHURCH? DON'T TAKE IT TOO HARD BUT YOU ARE NOT TRUE A CHRISTIAN.

WHAT I DEFINE ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN CHURCH IS THAT PREACHING ONLY FROM ONE BIBLE AND THAT IS THE TRUE CHRISTIAN AND TRUE CHRISTIAN CONDEMNS OTHER RELIGION. THIS IS FACTUAL.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 18 January 2006 at 5:43pm

"True Christian condemns other religions?" TSK TSK doesn't sound Christ like to me. Let's see what would Jesus do? condemn a God-fearing Muslim or the murderer or rapist? Hmmmm he perhaps wouldn't condemn neither but forgive those who do harm to themselves and others. Maybe you should go back to your doctrine and read over the many messages Jesus left for his followers. What Angela means is that many of today's priest and preachers are preaching from a text which was changed over time. She didn't say "Christianity" maybe you should also read over her post while you're reading over the teachings of Jesus



Posted By: pauline35
Date Posted: 19 January 2006 at 6:24am
Hope it's not a bitter pill for you to accept what Christian especially Evangelist preached to condemns other religions.

Guess you missed the contents of the thread.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 January 2006 at 8:18am

A Latter-day Saint Perspective on Muhammad

By http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00000.htm - James A. Toronto, �A Latter-day Saint Perspective on Muhammad,� Ensign, Aug. 2000, 51
Recently I received a phone call from two Church members in Los Angeles who had become acquainted with a Muslim neighbor from Pakistan. When they shared with him the story of Joseph Smith�s First Vision, his response surprised them. After stating that Muslims accept no prophets after Muhammad, he said that Joseph Smith�s story shared similarities with Muhammad�s. He said, �We believe Muhammad encountered a divine messenger who informed him of his new calling as prophet. He received revelations of new scripture that contains God�s word to mankind, and he established a community of believers that developed into a major world religion.� Knowing little about Muslims and Islam http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00001.htm - * or about Muhammad, the members were unsure in their responses.

The issues raised by this experience imply a broader question that is relevant for all Latter-day Saints in view of the Church�s global presence and the increasingly pluralistic societies in which we all live: What is an appropriate Latter-day Saint attitude toward other religions� claims of divinely inspired prophets, scriptures, visions, and miracles? The following may be helpful and is based on gospel insights I have gained over the years while studying and living in Muslim societies. Seeing Muhammad�s role in religious history from the perspective of the restored gospel provides great understanding of one of history�s most influential spiritual leaders, helps us appreciate Heavenly Father�s love for His children of all nations, and gives principles to guide us in building positive relations with friends and neighbors of other faiths.

Thoughts on Interfaith Relations

President Gordon B. Hinckley has consistently advocated dialogue and mutual respect in interfaith relations. He has admonished members of the Church to cultivate �a spirit of affirmative gratitude� for those of differing religious, political, and philosophical persuasions, adding that �we do not in any way have to compromise our theology� in the process. He gave this counsel: �Be respectful of the opinions and feelings of other people. Recognize their virtues; don�t look for their faults. Look for their strengths and their virtues, and you will find strength and virtues that will be helpful in your own life.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00002.htm - 1

President Hinckley�s emphasis on building interfaith understanding is rooted in fundamental gospel principles�humility, charity, respect for eternal truth, and recognition of God�s love for all mankind�taught by Jesus Christ and by ancient and modern prophets. The Savior repeatedly affirmed Heavenly Father�s boundless concern for the well-being of each of His sons and daughters, as in the parable of the lost sheep (see http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/15 - Luke 15 ). In the parable of the good Samaritan, He taught that one of the keys to true discipleship is to treat others kindly and compassionately in spite of political, racial, or religious differences (see http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/10/25-37#25 - Luke 10:25�37 ). He denounced intolerance and rivalry among religious groups and the tendency to extol one�s own virtues and deprecate the spiritual status of others. Addressing a parable to those who �trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others,� Jesus condemned the pride of the Pharisee who prayed, �God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are� and commended the humility of the publican who implored, �God be merciful to me a sinner� (see http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/18/9-14#9 - Luke 18:9�14 ).

The Book of Mormon teaches that Heavenly Father �is mindful of every people, whatsoever land they may be in; � and his bowels of mercy are over all the earth� ( http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/26/37#37 - Alma 26:37 ; see also http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/1/14#14 - 1 Ne. 1:14 ). Because of this love for His children of all nations, the Lord has provided spiritual light to guide and enrich their lives. Elder Orson F. Whitney (1855�1931) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles observed that God �is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00003.htm - 2

Elder B. H. Roberts (1857�1933) of the Seventy also spoke on this doctrine: �While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men; and it is one of God�s instrumentalities for making known the truth yet he is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. God raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend. � All the great teachers are servants of God; among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God�s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00004.htm - 3

The Prophet Joseph Smith often expounded on this theme of the universality of God�s love and the related need to remain open to all available sources of divine light and knowledge. �One of the grand fundamental principles of �Mormonism,� � he said, �is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00005.htm - 4 The Prophet exhorted Church members to �gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00006.htm - 5

Church leaders continually have encouraged members to foster amicable relations with people of other faiths by acknowledging the spiritual truth they possess, emphasizing the similarities in belief and lifestyle, and teaching us to disagree agreeably. Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915�85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles spoke on this theme to members and nonmembers during an area conference in Tahiti: �Keep all the truth and all the good that you have. Do not abandon any sound or proper principle. Do not forsake any standard of the past which is good, righteous, and true. Every truth found in every church in all the world we believe. But we also say this to all men�Come and take the added light and truth that God has restored in our day. The more truth we have, the greater is our joy here and now; the more truth we receive, the greater is our reward in eternity.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00007.htm - 6

During October 1991 general conference, President Howard W. Hunter of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said: �As members of the Church of Jesus Christ, we seek to bring all truth together. We seek to enlarge the circle of love and understanding among all the peoples of the earth. Thus we strive to establish peace and happiness, not only within Christianity but among all mankind.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00008.htm - 7

Likewise, Elder Russell M. Nelson quoted a public statement issued by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in October 1992, calling upon �all people everywhere to re-commit themselves to the time-honored ideals of tolerance and mutual respect. We sincerely believe that as we acknowledge one another with consideration and compassion we will discover that we can all peacefully coexist despite our deepest differences.� He then added: �That pronouncement is a contemporary confirmation of the Prophet Joseph�s earlier entreaty for tolerance. Unitedly we may respond. Together we may stand, intolerant of transgression but tolerant of neighbors with differences they hold sacred. Our brothers and sisters throughout the world are all children of God.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00009.htm - 8

Latter-day Saint Interest in Muhammad

One of the noteworthy examples of the Latter-day Saint commitment to treasure up true principles and cultivate affirmative gratitude is the admiration that Church leaders have expressed over the years for the spiritual contributions of Muhammad.

As early as 1855, at a time when Christian literature generally ridiculed Muhammad as the Antichrist and the archenemy of Western civilization, Elders George A. Smith (1817�75) and Parley P. Pratt (1807�57) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles delivered lengthy sermons demonstrating an accurate and balanced understanding of Islamic history and speaking highly of Muhammad�s leadership. Elder Smith observed that Muhammad was �descended from Abraham and was no doubt raised up by God on purpose� to preach against idolatry. He sympathized with the plight of Muslims, who, like Latter-day Saints, found it difficult �to get an honest history� written about them. Speaking next, Elder Pratt went on to express his admiration for Muhammad�s teachings, asserting that �upon the whole, � [Muslims] have better morals and better institutions than many Christian nations.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00010.htm - 9

Latter-day Saint appreciation of Muhammad�s role in history can also be found in the 1978 First Presidency statement regarding God�s love for all mankind. This declaration specifically mentions Muhammad as one of �the great religious leaders of the world� who received �a portion of God�s light� and affirms that �moral truths were given to [these leaders] by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00011.htm - 10

In recent years, respect for the spiritual legacy of Muhammad and for the religious values of the Islamic community has led to increasing contact and cooperation between Latter-day Saints and Muslims around the world. This is due in part to the presence of Latter-day Saint congregations in areas such as the Levant, North Africa, the Persian Gulf, and Southeast Asia. The Church has sought to respect Islamic laws and traditions that prohibit conversion of Muslims to other faiths by adopting a policy of nonproselyting in Islamic countries of the Middle East. Yet examples of dialogue and cooperation abound, including visits of Muslim dignitaries at Church headquarters in Salt Lake City; Muslim use of Church canning facilities to produce halal (ritually clean) food products; Church humanitarian aid and disaster relief sent to predominantly Muslim areas including Jordan, Kosovo, and Turkey; academic agreements between Brigham Young University and various educational and governmental institutions in the Islamic world; the existence of the Muslim Student Association at BYU; and expanding collaboration between the Church and Islamic organizations to safeguard traditional family values worldwide. http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00012.htm - 11 The recent initiation of the Islamic Translation Series, cosponsored by BYU and the Church, has resulted in several significant exchanges between Muslim officials and Latter-day Saint Church leaders. A Muslim ambassador to the United Nations predicted that this translation series �will play a positive role in the West�s quest for a better understanding of Islam.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00013.htm - 12

A cabinet minister in Egypt, aware of the common ground shared by Muslims and Latter-day Saints, once remarked to Elder Howard W. Hunter of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles that �if a bridge is ever built between Christianity and Islam it must be built by the Mormon Church.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00014.htm - 13 The examples of Latter-day Saint�Muslim interaction mentioned above, together with the Church�s establishment in 1989 of two major centers for educational and cultural exchange in the Middle East (Jerusalem and Amman), reflect the traditional attitude of respect for Islam that Church leaders have exhibited from earliest times. These activities represent tangible evidence of Latter-day Saint commitment to promote greater understanding of the Muslim world and witness an emerging role for the Church in helping to bridge the gap that has existed historically between Muslims and Christians.

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=id$id=ensignlp.nfo%3Ao%3A17a7$cid=ensignlp.nfo$3.0$p=">
Click to View Larger Format
Not shown are North America and South America, whose percentage of Muslims is less than 5 percent. North America has approximately 7 million Muslims, or 2.3 percent of the population, of which 5.5 million are in the United States. South America has approximately 1 million Muslims, accounting for 2 percent of the population. (Map by Tom Child; information courtesy of Oxford University Press.)

The Life of Muhammad

Who, then, was Muhammad, and what is there in his life and teachings that has attracted the interest and admiration of Church leaders? What strength and virtues can we find in Muslim experience that, as President Hinckley has suggested, will be helpful in our own spiritual lives?

At the dawn of the 21st century, Islam is one of the largest and fastest-growing religions in the world. Muslims currently number more than one billion (almost one-fifth of the world�s population), concentrated primarily in Southeast Asia, the Indian Subcontinent, the Middle East, and North Africa, but with significant populations located in Europe and North America. Some even project that Islam will become the most populous religion in the world during the first half of this new century. The roots of this dynamic and, for some people, misunderstood religious movement can be traced back 14 centuries to the humble beginnings and founding work of Muhammad, whom Muslims consider to be the last of a long line of prophets sent by God to teach Islam to the world.

Muhammad (Arabic, �praised�) was born in 570 C.E. http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00015.htm - 14 in Mecca, a prosperous city that was a center of caravan trade and religious pilgrimage in the northwest Arabian peninsula. Orphaned in early childhood, he lived a life of poverty as a youth, working as a herdsman for his family and neighbors, an occupation that gave him ample time and solitude to contemplate the deeper questions of life. Muhammad gained a reputation in the community as a trusted arbiter and peacemaker as indicated in the following account:

�At one time the Quraish [Muhammad�s tribe] decided to rebuild the Ka�ba [sacred shrine], to reset the stones above the foundations. In one of the corners they wanted to put the black stone, but could not decide who should have the honour of placing it there. They would have quarrelled violently if [Muhammad] the young man they all admired and trusted had not come by. They asked [him] � to settle the dispute. He told them to spread a large cloak and place the black stone in the middle. They did so. Then, he asked a man from each of the four clans who were in dispute to take hold of a corner of the cloak. In this way they all shared the honour of carrying the stone.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00016.htm - 15

At the age of 25, Muhammad married a widow, Khadija, who was 15 years his senior and a prosperous caravan merchant. She knew of his reputation for honesty and hard work, and she made the proposal of marriage that turned out to be a successful and happy one, producing four daughters and two sons. For the next 15 years Muhammad was engaged with Khadija in running the family business and raising their family. It was during this period also that he retreated often into the solitude of the desert to pray, meditate, and worship. He had become dissatisfied with the corruption, idolatry, and social inequities that plagued Mecca; he sought for a higher truth that would provide peace, justice, and spiritual fulfillment for him and his people.

In 610 C.E., when he was 40, his spiritual seeking and preparation reached a culmination. According to Islamic history, one night while Muhammad was engaged in prayer and meditation on Mount Hira near Mecca, the angel Gabriel appeared to him to deliver a message from God (Arabic, Allah). http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00017.htm - 16 Three times the angel commanded that Muhammad �Recite! In the name of thy Lord who created, created man of a blood-clot. Recite! And thy Lord is the Most Generous, who taught by the pen�Taught man that he knew not� (Qur�an 96:1�5). http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00018.htm - 17

For a period of 22 years, from 610 C.E. to his death in 632, Muhammad received communications that he said were from Allah, by way of the angel Gabriel, and that he memorized verbatim and recited orally to his disciples. These oral recitations of Allah�s mind and will are collectively referred to as al-Qur�an (�recitation�) by Muslims. However, Muhammad�s preaching against idolatry, polytheism, female infanticide, and other religious and social corruptions met fierce opposition in Mecca. His message was rejected in this early period in Mecca, and he and his fledgling community of converts, mostly a few family members and close friends, were shunned, persecuted, and even tortured.

Then a group of men came from the town Yathrib and asked Muhammad to act as an arbiter in the squabbles which were ruining their town. Muhammad saw an opportunity to alleviate the suffering of his followers and agreed to leave Mecca. First he sent his followers, and then he himself went to the town, which would thereafter be known as Madinat an-Nabi (�City of the Prophet�), or simply Medina. This emigration (Arabic, hijra), from Mecca to Medina, took place in 622 C.E., the year commemorated as the starting point of the Muslim Hijri calendar. Muslims saw in the Hijra a fundamental turning point in the life of the prophet and in the nature of the Muslim community. From being a rejected preacher, Muhammad became a statesman, legislator, judge, educator, and military leader.

In Medina, the Muslims had freedom to establish themselves securely, develop their institutions for governance and education, and become a prosperous community, in contrast to their status in Mecca as a persecuted, marginal religious minority.

A few years after the Hijra, Muhammad was able to return to the city of Mecca, where his teachings were gradually adopted. Today Mecca is considered by Muslims to be the spiritual center of Islam and the holiest of cities, with Medina as the second and Jerusalem the third holiest cities.

In 632, at the age of 62, Muhammad died unexpectedly after a short fever. By any measure Muhammad was phenomenally successful during his career, even though his name and achievements have been the subject of controversy over the centuries in Western civilization. During the last half of the 20th century, however, non-Muslim historians have become more objective and complimentary, acknowledging that Muhammad�s achievements in both political and religious realms assure him a place as one of the most influential figures in history.

Contrary to Western civilization�s stereotype of Muhammad as a false prophet or enemy of Christians, Muslim sources portray a man of unfailing humility, kindness, good humor, generosity, and simple tastes. Though he smiled often, it is said he seldom laughed because, as one famous hadith (report of Muhammad�s sayings or actions) states, �If you knew what I know you would cry much and laugh little.� His gentle humor is evident in the following story:

�One day a little old woman came to him to ask whether old wretched women would also go to Paradise. �No,� he answered, �there are no old women in Paradise!� Then, looking at her grieved face, he said with a smile: �They will all be transformed in Paradise, for there, there is only one youthful age for all!� �

He dispensed wise and practical advice to followers. When a man asked if he needed to tie his camel up, since he already trusted in God�s help and protection, Muhammad replied: �First tether it, and then trust in God.� Some reports indicate that Muhammad�s family were poor and often hungry, only able to afford coarse bread at times. His statement, faqri fakhri, �My poverty is my pride,� reveals his joy in simple pleasures, and this saying was later adopted as a slogan by Muslim ascetics. He was especially fond of children, allowing his two young grandsons to climb on his back while he was performing prayers. A man once criticized him for kissing his grandson Hasan, saying, �I have 10 boys but have never kissed any of them.� Muhammad answered, �He who does not show mercy will not receive mercy.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00019.htm - 18

In his last speech in the mosque in Medina, given on the day he died, Muhammad displayed humility and magnanimity in bidding farewell to his community after more than 30 years of sacrifice on their behalf: �If there is any man whose honour I might have injured, here I am to answer for it. If I have unjustifiably inflicted bodily harm on anyone, I present myself for retribution. If I owe anything to anyone, here is my property and he may help himself to it. � Nobody should say: �I fear enmity and rancor of the Messenger of God.� I nurse no grudge towards anyone. These things are repugnant to my nature and temperament. I abhor them so.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00020.htm - 19

With this view of Muhammad in mind, we can understand why Muslims commonly bless his name when it is mentioned in speech or writing, invoke his name in conversations, and celebrate his birthday. Pious Muslims strive to emulate his example in every aspect of life: mode of dress, style of grooming, table manners, religious rituals, and benevolence toward others.

The Teachings of Muhammad

Islamic life revolves around five basic principles that are outlined in general terms in the Qur�an and expounded in the teachings and customs (Arabic, sunna) of Muhammad. These five pillars are the witness of faith, prayer, almsgiving, fasting, and pilgrimage to Mecca. Some examples of Muhammad�s teachings on charitable giving and fasting will illustrate his manner of teaching and his central role in Muslim life.

The principle of almsgiving is designed to care for the poor and to foster empathy in the community of believers. The Qur�an states that charity and compassion, not mechanical observance of rituals, define one�s worthiness in God�s sight (2:177). Muhammad�s sayings clearly teach the practice of charity:

�None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.�

�Each person�s every joint must perform a charity every day the sun comes up: to act justly between two people is a charity; to help a man with his mount, lifting him onto it or hoisting up his belongings onto it is a charity; a good word is a charity; every step you take to prayers is a charity; and removing a harmful thing from the road is charity.�

�Charity extinguishes sin as water extinguishes fire.�

�Smiling to another person is an act of charity.�

�He who sleeps with a full stomach knowing that his neighbor is hungry [is not a believer].� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00021.htm - 20

Muslims view fasting as having a dual purpose: to bring about a state of humility and surrender of one�s soul to God, and to foster compassion and care for the poor in the community. Thus, fasting and almsgiving go hand in hand: denying of oneself cannot be complete without giving of oneself.

I was reminded of this principle among Muslims, and the profound influence of Muhammad�s example in their lives, while living in Cairo, Egypt, during the holy month of fasting, Ramadan. http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00022.htm - 21 My family and I were invited by a Muslim friend, Nabil, to participate in his family�s evening meal in which they broke their fast. As we entered their modest apartment in one of the most impoverished quarters of Cairo, I noticed that one of the rooms was occupied by numerous peasant women (distinguishable by their black clothing) and their children. They were all sitting on the floor with food spread out before them on a cloth, quietly waiting for the call to prayer that marks the end of fasting each day. When I asked if they were his relatives, he replied: �No, I don�t know any of them. It is our habit to invite strangers off the street who cannot afford good food to share our Ramadan meal. We do this because it was one of the customs of our prophet, Muhammad.�

I was deeply moved by my Muslim friend�s unselfishness and compassion for the poor, and humbled by his good example in practicing a principle that I had learned from the Bible years before but had rarely observed: �When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; � but when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee� ( http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/14/12-14#12 - Luke 14:12�14 ).

A Latter-day Saint Perspective

How, then, might Latter-day Saints regard the Muslim community? The most helpful approach is to recognize the truths and values we share with our Muslim brothers and sisters, even while politely acknowledging that theological differences exist. Certainly Latter-day Saints do not agree with Islamic teachings that deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, the need for modern prophets, or the principle of eternal progression. But by being humble and open to spiritual light wherever it may be found, we benefit from the religious insights of Muslims and affirm similarities in belief such as faith, prayer, fasting, repentance, compassion, modesty, and strong families as cornerstones of individual spirituality and community life. http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00023.htm - 22

In a recent meeting with Muslim dignitaries, Elder Neal A. Maxwell of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles focused on the common spiritual heritage of Mormons and Muslims. After quoting a verse from the Qur�an, he observed:

�God is the source of light in heaven and on earth. We share the belief with you. We resist the secular world. We believe with you that life has meaning and purpose. � We revere the institution of the family. � We salute you for your concern for the institution of the family. � Mutual respect, friendship, and love are precious things in today�s world. We feel those emotions for our Islamic brothers and sisters. Love never needs a visa. It crosses over all borders and links generations and cultures.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00024.htm - 23

The Prophet Joseph Smith, in one of his most eloquent pronouncements on tolerance and compassion, encouraged the Saints to expand their vision of the human family, to view people of other faiths and cultures as our Heavenly Father does and not according to the �narrow, contracted notions of men.� He taught that the Father will take complex personal, political, and social circumstances into account at the last day and render final judgment based on a divine, merciful perspective that surpasses our limited human understanding:

�While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of the contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes �His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.� He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, �according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil,� or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, �not according to what they have not, but according to what they have,� those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will be judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00025.htm - 24

In response to the interfaith dilemma raised by the Church members in Los Angeles, I was grateful to state that we belong to a church that affirms the truths taught by Muhammad and other great teachers, reformers, and religious founders. We recognize the goodness reflected in the lives of those in other religious communities. While we do not compromise revealed eternal truths of the restored gospel, we never espouse an adversarial relationship with other faiths. Rather, in accordance with modern prophetic counsel, we seek to treasure up that which is virtuous and praiseworthy in other faiths and to cultivate an attitude of �affirmative gratitude� toward them. As Latter-day Saints, we believe that it is vital to respect and benefit from the spiritual light found in other religions, while seeking humbly to share the additional measure of eternal truth provided by latter-day revelation.



Posted By: pauline35
Date Posted: 20 January 2006 at 4:33am
Thanks Sister Angela for your efforts in sharing the above wonderful article.    However, faith in Christianity is lost in me as I have been intimidated regularly by them. So my will is that I have no interest in their teachings. My will now is that anything about Prophet Muhammad, I am pleased to accept and to learn more.

Gosh! You won't know how I feel when they started to intimidate me or psychologically bullying me and pressure me to accept that Jesus is the only GOD and he is a jealous GOD, so I mustn't believe in other religion. They pestered me almost days. I thought they were nice persons to chatter with, who knows they ended up harrassing me to go to their Church and insult other religions so to demoralize my spirit from reaching GOD's teaching.

Frankly, I have many friends who are Muslims, Hindus, Christian and Buddhist. In fact, the only person that really annoys me is the Christian evangelist. Only Christian Evangelist talks about other religion while the rest just do not talk about other religion. Believe me, especially after 9/11, most Christian believer would condemn on Muslim believer or invade in those who believes the Prophet Muhammad.

I guess the damage has been done. What is done cannot be undone.

P/s:I love the part about Prophet Muhammad. I guess he became my idol now.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 20 January 2006 at 6:49am

Well, I'm sorry those Christians bullied you.  They should not have. We are taught the greatest gift from God to made kind is free will.  They were not very Christian if they bullied and threatened you.  A true christian should be kind, loving and charitable.  As a Member of the Mormon church, we are taught to respect other religions as you see above.  In fact, our missionaries absolutely are not allowed to proselyte in Muslim countries.  And if they run into a muslim in another country and they ask them to go because they are Muslim, they are to do it immediately.

Evangelists bother me too.  Especially the ones on TV begging for money.  I believe these are the men warned about when it says that Satan will use the bible to his own ends.  There are many churches that are "christian" that I DON'T like.  I guess you could say its like disagreeing with the Shia or the Sufis. 

Peace on you Pauline, God loves all his children and he is Merciful, Just and All Knowing.  We must understand that in the end he knows our hearts and he will guide us along the paths he's chosen for us.

Angie



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 01 February 2006 at 5:32pm

I am a Roman Catholic.  The Church teaches that ALL people, regardless of their religion, will find salvation if, in their hearts, they are sincerely making every effort to do what is morally correct.  God gave each of us a conscience, and He also gave us free will.  Our conscience is there for a purpose.  To help us know what is right and what is wrong.  It is our own decision which path we will take.  If we choose to do what we know as moral and good, we believe God is merciful, and on Judgment Day, He will have mercy on all those who have tried their best to do good in this life.  When it's all said and done, God alone will decide who is worthy of Heaven.  This is what I believe.

God's Peace to All,

Patty



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 01 February 2006 at 5:49pm

"For instance the Catholic Church decided not to allow priests to marry. The reason is that inheritance with through the family. So the kids (sons) would inherit the land. Thus the Church would not be the ruling land class anymore in Europe. They gave it flavorings as they were 'apostles' and should marry 'god'. Go figure. 

Then for women they were really 2nd class citizens. Virtually property. The Church demed them 2nd class by blaming the problems on women (as it was all Eve's fault for tempting Adam). Then setting up that women are either virgins or prostitutes. Not full, sexual beings. Like marry them only cause you have to.. very subtle messages that became a norm."

Sorry, I don't know how to post a quote here.  You are right.  I am a devout Catholic, and in the beginning the first disciples (apostles) were married.  A few hundred years later it was decided they should be celibate....and the Church would gain their inheritance.  This was not right at all.  Now they remain celibate because it is felt they are more able to devote ALL their time to their parish members, and to the Church....there is something in the Bible which states that a married man's attention is divided between God and his family, but a single man can focus totally on God and His will.  However, since this is a "man made" rule...it is possible it can be changed, and celibacy will be optional for the priests.

Women are not treated as either virgins or prostitutes.  I don't know where that came from, but nope, we are treated very respectfully.  If women act as prostitutes then they are treated "BY SOME MEN" according to the way the present themselves.  Jesus forgave the prostitutes and ate with them.  He was here to save the "lost sheep".  He did not like hypocrites who acted holier than thou.  I am no one special, and am certainly not holier than thou.  I am just a woman, a married mother and grandmother.  I have my faith.  I love my church....just as you love your faith and your church.  We are truly all God's Children.  I suppose he cries a million tears over all the arguing and fighting we do in His holy name.

God's Peace,

Patty 




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