Hi, since I live in Denmark I like to understand why muslims all of a sudden has started to hate everything connected with Denmark. I understand it has got something to do with the drawings a Danish paper published of the prophet Mohammed. But from an Islam context what exactly the the Danish paper do that is so wrong?

I can only assume that the hatred is caused by the paper breaking an Islam rule. But I am pretty sure that there is an Islam rule that says that Islam rules only applies to Islam people.

So my questions are

Is the hatred caused by breaking an Islam rule?

If so, what happened to the rule that says Islam rules applies to Islam people. Not to non-Islam people?

Or is it something completely different?

Bismillah

Just because the rule applies to Muslims, it does not mean that every non-Muslim should feel free going round and degrading Islam or mocking at Muslims. True Muslims take their religion very seriously... there are no Cupids, comics, jedis or yodas.

There are Christians that get offended when Jesus is depicted in a degrading and mocking way.   I saw these comics on a blogger sight.  Many of them were horrible, in poor taste and degrading.  It is forbidden in Islam to depict the Prophet.  So, to not only draw him in cartoon, but to do so in a mocking and insulting manner is just plain wrong.  The Danish paper should have had more respect for the 2 billion Muslims out there.  I sincerely hope the man who contracted the pictures is fired and never allowed to work for another paper.

And I'm CHRISTIAN.

Assalamu alaikum,

I met with my local group of Muslim Sisters yesterday.  This topic was foremost in their minds.  Being a 'westerner' who grew up with the concept of free speech and this society's 'do as you please' attitude, I was humbled and awed at their reaction to the cartoons, awed at the depth of their dismay and disgust over the cartoons and humbled by their incredibly intense love of our Prophet (peace be upon him).

As a Muslim revert, I have had to learn to love Muhammad (peace be upon him).  With each bit I learn about his life, his character, his devotion to Allah, I learn to love him more.  I pray that someday I will love him as deeply and devotedly as my Sisters do, insha'allah.

Perhaps one really needs to see this 'gut level' reaction of born Muslims to understand the intense reaction to the mocking of the Prophet of Islam.

Peace, ummziba.

Thanks you Mockba. So its not about breaking some specific rule. I am happy that was made clear.

I can understand why people might find the drawings insulting, though I don't share their level of annoyment personally. I fully agree that nobody should feel free going round and degrading Islam or mocking at Muslims.

I hope this also goes for Danish people as well, since they have got nothing to do with these drawings whatsoever.

Edit add. Never saw the additional posts. Many thanks for these as well.

Yesterday the head of muslim umbrella organization, Ahmad Abu Laban, told Danish TV2 that he would do his very best to convince the muslim world to stop the boycott. He was looking forward to participate in a peace delegation, that would tour the Middle East.

The very same day he was interviewed on Al Jazeera and said the contrary. (My translation below)

If the muslim countries decide to boycott, and if muslim citizens feel, it is their duty to defend the prophet, then its something we are happy about.

I also read in the paper today that the Dutch newspaper de Volkskrant re-published some of the drawings. Without getting many reactions to this. This paper also published some of the drawings back in November without many reactions.

You might be interested to learn that the drawings was published several months ago. So the reaction has been far from immediate. Things did not fire up until the Danish muslim community leadership had toured the middle east with a stack of drawings. The stack of drawings contained, not only the 12 drawings published by the Danish paper. But also additional drawings found elsewhere.

The conclusion I draw is that nobody in Denmark has not been very fortunate with its muslim leadership.

Al Salamu alaykum Wa Rahmatu Allahi Wa Barakatuh,

   Freedom of speech is a right for everyone. Anyone has the right to disagree with Islam and have their point of view. It is ultimately a personal opinion and everyone will have to deal with the consequences of their opinions sooner or later. But it is unacceptable to mock or insult a religious figure respected and followed by a number of people. Actually it is plain rude and unacceptable to mock or insult anyone, whether this person is a renown figure or a normal person. Mocking people is not freedom of speech, it is disrespect. It is not funny to joke about Mohammed. Jesus or the Holocaust.

   If anyone wants to express their views about Mohammed in a polite and debatable manner, they are most welcome, and they can be answered back in order to clarify other people's points of view. Actually it might be the reason why others that don't know much about Mohammed and Islam might get to know better. But there is no benefit from mocking him except offending Muslims. 

  PS: The reaction might not have been immediate because we never heard about these cartoons until recently and as soon as we did, we took action.

Bismillah

The answer of the so-called "civilised" world to Muslims is the re-printing of the cartoons in many more newspapers across the borders of Denmark. 

When a mosquito bites a Jew the whole world owes an apology and must stop and show empathy in awe. When Muslims are killed and insulted en masse, the insult should be made louder and killing should spread wider.

Such are the rules of today's "freedom" and "democracy" where filthy homosexuals and prostitutes have more rights than believing Muslims.

"No reason have we why we should not put our trust on Allah. Indeed He Has guided us to the Ways we (follow). We shall certainly bear with patience all the hurt you may cause us. For those who put their trust should put their trust on Allah." (Quran 14:12)

"The answer of the so-called "civilised" world to Muslims is the re-printing of the cartoons in many more newspapers across the borders of Denmark."

The decision to re-print the drawings was taken by a number of European newspapers. That decision was not taken in Denmark. I disagree with any action that might result in this escalating. Including this one.

Collectively punishing all Danes (which includes Danish muslims) is unfair and wrong.

I heard a quote from the Quran on radio the other day which said that punishing the innocent is wrong. Sorry, can't recall the wording.

Danes has done nothing to deserve this hatred and hostility. The Danish paper was wrong to publish the drawings, muslims boycotting Denmark and expressing hatred for Danmark are also wrong.

Bismillah

Nobody is promoting hostility against Danish people or punishing anyone.

One of the main objectives of bringing up the issue was possibly to prevent this from happening in the future in other countries of the "civilised" world, but it seems to have generated the opposite in a matter of days.

You've heard so much from Muslims on the issue yet we've yet to hear from Danish people...  

Hi Mobka,

Such are the rules of today's "freedom" and "democracy" where filthy homosexuals and prostitutes have more rights than believing Muslims."

I don't know what the purpose was to post this. Seem out of context in this thread. If muslims insist not to be mocked it would provide more respect, if other goups was not mocked.

When it comes to groups rights to be free of mocking I include religion, sexual preference, race and social status. Having different rules for different groups makes no sense to me. "Others can't mock me, but I reserve the right to mock others". I don't want to take this any further here.

"Nobody is promoting hostility against Danish people or punishing anyone."

I think boycotting and encouraging others to boycott is doing this. Nobody here in this thread is doing this. On the contrary, I appreciate very muchI ment the massive protests in the middle east. 

Yes DavidC,

From a casual observer of muslim world this is difficult to understand.

Or as it was put in a Jordan paper, which (according to Danish news) published a couple of the drawings, with a comment saying something like.

What gives muslims a bad image? The drawings, or published footage of a hostage having his throut cut.

Saying that, which also reflects DavidC's post, I understand that muslim terrorism must be a much greater problem in the muslim countries then elsewhere.

Anyway, I would like have this thread stick with the issue of the drawings and nothing else.

Just came to think about it. Some or several European newspapers published the drawings recently. Maybe more will. I just want to make clear the drawings has been published once by one newspaper in Denmark. I can't imagine any other Danish newspaper publishing the drawings.

Mobka,

I am terribily sorry but I did not understand anything of what you posted here.

When a mosquito bites a Jew the whole world owes an apology and must stop and show empathy in awe. When Muslims are killed and insulted en masse, the insult should be made louder and killing should spread wider.

What has mosquitos and jews to do with this? I thought I made it clear that its not in Danish interest to spread this further. Why do you mention killings? Who has been killed? What killing should be spread wider?

trbo let me try to answer your question.

The prohibition for making a picture or cartoon of the Prophet (PBUH) is not there in the Qur'an, however this prophibition has in all probabiity come from the Hadith (which is the saying's or practices of the Prophet (PBUH).

When one understands Islam then you will have no reason to doubt why this prohibition exists. Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was the last of the messengers of God. Whilst all the previous messengers brought the same message as the Prophet Mohammed i.e- to believe in the ONENESS of God, their followers had the propensity to worship something that they could see and feel etc. This resulted in idol worship and the associating of other human beings including the messengers with God. Islam regards this association as the worst possible sin which God will never forgive. Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) ensured that unlike the previous prophets/messengers he himself does not become an object of worship. He made it very clear that he was only a servant of God and a Messenger.

With this background Muslims feel duty bound to protect Islam from any corruption by strongly upholding the commands of God and the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). It was completely wrong for the Danish press to have made those cartoons and Muslims are justified in being enraged by such actions. For your kind information Muslims also feel enraged by bad depictions of Jesus but are unable to protest when the Christians who actually worship him don't do much to stop it.

Bismillah

David C, yes Muslims mosques are being bombed in Muslim countries murdering Muslims... but what makes you say that it is Muslims who bomb them? A "Salafi"? Is it one of those american aircraft carriers? Please give me a break.

I am against any kind of bombing and againts those who continue to develop and market bombs and all kinds of weapons but that does not mean that meanwhile i'm gonna pass by insulting cartoons without having a word to say.

These cartoons are just a part of the package which has already seen the Holy Quran flushed in the lavatory, Muslim children murdered live on air in varoius parts ot the world... or perhaps the latter is not from the print media desk... but it is related... it involves Muslims and everything that involves Muslims is related to Islam.

Wrangel, the inspiration behind the cartoons and terrorist acts stem from the same evil... It is this evil that we - Muslims are against. I am not sure what are you against... or afraid of.

 The traditional main purpos of 'satirical' cartoons was to expose and ridicule the high and mighty oppresses. Cartoons are a short sharp way of making a point rather than making a long speech. The question of tast is always a difficult matter, but cartoons mocking Bush and Blair over their hypocracy and vicious war-mongering stupidity, have done much to focus minds on the suffering of war ravished nations.

I understand that in this case the 'point' was deliberately to make a comparison between one image of bad tase (the 'cartoon') and other acts and images of butality(behedings). The question was then asked, 'which was the worst of the two and isn't it hypocritical to condemn one and not the otherr'? 

This deliberate provocation was at best just plain stupid and the all round ignorace of these smug well fed authors is breath-taking, thinking that this would divert everyone's attention from the real crooks who are running this planet.  

If they had any genuine understanding that the cause of the war and the brutality in Iraq and Palestine is the sole result of a crisis ridden capitalis system which can only offer war and more war, they would have directed their mocking 'skills' at the hipocritical money grabbing criminals and helped the poor resist oppression. 

DavidC,

You seem to be missing the main point in all this. The dominant religious culture of the counties that are being blitzed by "the big guy" is Islam. The point of this provocation like many others is to inflame passions all round and break up the growing solidarity between people of all cultures against "the big guy".

"Wrangel, the inspiration behind the cartoons and terrorist acts stem from the same evil... It is this evil that we - Muslims are against. I am not sure what are you against... or afraid of."

The inspiration behind the cartoons and terrorist acts do not stem from the same evil.
In the case of the Danish paper it was not delibarate evil, that caused that to wish to cause harm. The cause was ignorance. Add arrogance as well, I would not disagree with that.

What I am against... or afraid of? I am against a boycott of Danish industry because it hurts all Danes. Danes have to work for a living and there is a shortage of work already, before the boycott.

Afraid of? There are people in this world that commit terrorist acts in the name of Islam, killing people. There has already been threats against Denmark (and Norway). Surely you must realize that this is a worry. 

Why do you post things like this?

"Muslim children murdered live on air in varoius parts ot the world"

To me its just a sentence out of context. Those who does that I would be afraid of. But I don't know what you are talking about.

The point of this provocation like many others is to inflame passions all round and break up the growing solidarity between people of all cultures against "the big guy".

Very good point. Tim Evans

Mocking cartoons of our beloved Prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon him ) have mocked at the faith of more than 1.5 billion Muslims. In return, many Muslims, particularly in the Middle East, are boycotting Danish products as a form of protest. True that it would hurt Danish businesses,hurt its economy, hurt its people . Defaming of Prophet ( peace be upon him ) has spilled into other Euro zone nations. And that may create further escalation in already tensed situation. As a muslim, I want very strong level of communication between Islam and Christianity, and also dialogue between Islam and other nations. But with all this, the bridge only gets wider and wider and that goes against what I intended.

My point is who do you think is gaining from all this? The same people who want to divide us.

Peace

Hi all,

I think I have gotten my questions answered, after careful consideration, I can only interpret Mockba's (for me) incomprehendable one-liners (which he refuse to explain) as a polite way to say please go away. I see no reason not to follow his wishes. This was said without any hostility and as a personal remark to Mockba.

I realize I am starting to repeat myself valued friend.

Thank you very much for the participation in this thread and for wellcoming me so gently to the forum. I will surely be back if I have additional questions.

I would like to say that I have learned here (and as result of this conflict, and forum)  that I have to admire Muslims for their morale stature.

Maybe this conflict can result in Muslims respecting Denmark and Europe for having the same moral stature for freedom of speech/free press. That right belongs to the people and nobody else. But it is no right to use for insults.

Bismillah

Christians of today have allowed all sorts of insults on Jesus (may peace be upon him) to the extent that it has become common to make jokes, cartoons depicting him on various religios subjects like the Last Day. Muslims take worship and submission much more seriously and will not consider distorted interpretations of "freedoms" that are being enforced upon them today by the so called "liberators".

Regardless of what was said, the call is clear: Please stop insulting Muslims, go on with what you think is your religion but do not step into our holy shrines with your dirty boots wondering what is it you've done wrong... 

Regardless of what was said, the call is clear: Please stop insulting Muslims, go on with what you think is your religion but do not step into our holy shrines with your dirty boots wondering what is it you've done wrong...

As far as I am concerned I have made posts that clearly express that I am in full agreement what you say above. 

Your post also makes it very clear to me, that you lack interest in what else I have to say. Since you feel you have to point this out.

Thank you again for your answer to my initial question.

DavidC wrote: The cartoon has been posted on drudge, and there is Arabic writing on the bomb but I can't read Arabic.

The writing says "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah." The holiest phrase in all Islam.

Bismillah,

Wrangle, since you have the Danish perspective, we would like your continued input. Especially since you are trying so hard to be respectful.  

 When I, as a Muslim woman revert (reborn, reguided...) read Mockba's comments, I understand them right away.  So when you say that you don't see the relevance of this or comment that he has made, this is because of a cultural gap between the Muslim perspective and your perspective.  It is worth it for you to try and figure out this disparity.

Also, I understand your fears as well that you stated.  I felt afraid too when I heard about this.  My kids and me are discriminated against every day.  We live in a country that mostly hates Muslims and foreigners, now the worst to be is Arab or Pak.

Now, many people who are not bigots and racists will protest and say this isn't so.  Sadly, the enlightened are in the minority in America.  So please, don't change; we need you!

The pressures and difficulties of being Muslim in this world are tremendous.  Hatred and bigotry effect my family every day of our lives.  Really, Wrangle, you must struggle to understand this issue because it is the center of so much conflict.

Al-Hamudulilah, Praise God!  There is no faith greater or more beautiful than Islaam.  Would that I could go back to my easier life before Allah, SWT, God the Most Glorious and High, renewed my Islaam and faith in Him.  But Allah has enlightened me, and Al-Hamdulilah, this will not change.

David, Did you miss the statement put out by American Muslim Mosques belittling the killing of innocent people by Bush and by Muslims???  Have you read the posts by the Muslims on this board against the killing of innocent lives???  As much as you try, you also need to walk a mile in our shoes if you  depict it as "just a cartoon".

AssalamuAlaikum,

Sister Herjihad, good post.

Wrangel, we would like to hear more from you. As I said in my last post in this thread, it is sad to see where things are heading, that is honestly not what I or many Muslims actually want. There is a common enemy who is creating divide between us. And only by coming closer can we nullify the evil intentions of these divisive forces that want to rule the planet only to their advantage.

I hope the event, no matter how tragic that may be, will lead you and many others to the beauty of Islam.

Peace

With these kind words I see no other option then to stick around. At least I can tell a bit about what is happening in Denmark.

I read in the papers that the Danish embassy in Damaskus is been stormed and set on fire. A demonstration got out of hand. The papers also say that part of the reason for the demonstration, was rumours of Quran burning in Denmark. I have seen information about Quran burning in denmark, in some middle east news media on the Web.

This has not taken place. I have not heard about any burning and police sources denies any knowledge of this as well.

Here the full story, on what I think is the background for these rumours.

Danish media reported a couple of 4-5 days ago, that some right wing Danish individuals where trying to organize a demonstration in Denmark. Using SMS. Purpose would be burn a copy of the Quran and to encourage a boycott of Muslim owned shops in Denmark. Police immediately warned the orginazors, that any attempt to burn the Quran, would result in immediate arrest. Deliberate blasphemi is a criminal act according to Danish law.

Here is what happened at the day of the demonstration. First you need to understand that there lives around 2.500.000 people with easy and quick access to Copehagen.

Only 75 demonstrators showed up (I admit this was 75 too many). Nobody had brought the Quran. One had a sign saying "We are sorry". There where lots of police at the place. All 75 immediately went home again. The demonstration never started.

As for boycott of Muslim owned shops I frankly can't see this happening. Many local shops (grocheries, tobacco-shops, small reitail shops, buchers, ...) are owned and operated by Muslims. They are an integral part of daily Danish life. They are run by people you meet on a daily basis. A boycott of them is un-imaginable.

As for the storming, I don't see it as such as a big deal. Nobody was hurt. Demonstrations can get out of hand. It is the responability of the Syrian authoroties to ensure the security of an foreign embassy.

Standard diplomatic practise will kick in now. The Danish goverment will protest to the Syrian goverment, the Syrian goverment will tighten security on the embassy and that should be the end of that.

No Quran has been burnt in Denmark. If this happens will the responsible people be arrested, and they will also be heavily comdemned by all Danes. Including me.

http://www.petitiononline.com/DENMUS/petition.html - http://www.petitiononline.com/DENMUS/petition.html

Here is a peaceful way of expressing outrage of the cartoons.  I signed it, please, everyone else sign it.

The old tune is predictably being played-out, again.

"Standard diplomatic practice will kick in now. The Danish government will protest to the Syrian government, the Syrian government will tighten security on the embassy and that should be the end of that." (Wrangel)

The provocation is made. The provocation is responded to and rumor feeds on rumor. And then everyone starts "condemning" the response.

It's like poking a caged animal with stick through the bars of a cage. The stick is not the main problem. The fact that the poor creature is already driven mad by being caged is the problem.

The latest outburst of fury on the 'Arab street' is not just because some ignorant wag used a sharp pencil to insult Islam, it is a response to the generations of none stop repression and that won't go away because "Standard diplomatic practice will kick in..."      

Hi Angela, I have carefully read the petition. It's bottom line says:

"We still expect that your kind government will react positively to this insult by banning this cartoon and asking the newspaper to publish an apology to all Muslims."

I assume this means the petition formally asks the Danish goverment to formally request to the newspaper to publish an apology to all Muslims.

The Danish goverment is not allowed to interfere with the press in any way, that is not regulated by Danish law. This means the goverment or other authorities (police and others) can and must interfere if a newspaper breaks Danish law. Otherwise not.

The way the petition is formulated it might as well ask the Danish goverment to bring down the moon. Even though the request is fully reasonable and deserve support. The Danish goverment cannot do this. Since the Danish goverment actions are dictated by Danish law. It is impossible due to Danish law. And Danes have earned their freedom  and democrocy fighting their authorities during several centuries, will not allow this.

Asking the impossible from somebody cannot resolve this issue. It will only result in dissapointment, since the requested was not delivered. So the petition only makes matters worse.

The Danish goverment can however take initiative to change Danish laws. It can send proposals to the Danish parliment. Since the Danish goverment is formed based on the majority of the Danish parliment, it is also  highly likely that the Danish goverment proposals will be agreed by parliment.

If the petition request the Danish goverment to change Danish law so further unfortunate events like this can be prevented. I would happily sign it. As a matter of fact, I think the sooner they start doing this, the better. The Danish goverment deserves critisism for not having started this yet.

I cannot sign a petition that requests the Danish goverment to break Danish law. First the law must be changed. What law and how it should be changed is a political issue.

The Danish goverment has put forward all excuses within its power. The newspaper has also published excuses. I know that several Muslim organizations on Denmark has accepted these excuses.

Saw Tim's post. I think we all here understand that the issue is not just the Danish paper's drawings. I would however prefer that this thread only dealt with this. What I meant was that common diplomatic practise will deal with this particular event.

Tim ,

I don't know what you are talking about when you say:

"It's like poking a caged animal with stick through the bars of a cage. The stick is not the main problem. The fact that the poor creature is already driven mad by being caged is the problem."

It is very frustrating for me to be here, when I can't decode the posts. I find it rude and intimidating (spelling?) when so many make posts, suddenly , out of the blue, quoting something that sounds like senseless gibberish. It's not just your post, its others as well. I would very much like to understand what you are saying.

And when I ask for an explanation I never get one.

If we are here to try to clarify cultural differences, then its every posters responsability to make sure that everybody understand what he is saying.

Dear Wrangel!

First of all in the west use of the freedom of speech is not meant for abusive purpose. If I abuse someone's mother should that be covered under the so called FREEDOM OF SPEECH? or if I break someone's nose would it be covered under the freedom of action slogon.

For heaven's sake what is wrong with the people of the west. Someone personally may forgive any abuse to his parents but certiainly not to the Prophet Muhammad or Allah. This is a much gravest sin than that.

Regarding, to why all Danes should suffer for this individual act of a newspaper???  

Dear Danes where were you once the MILLIONS of Iraqis were being punished for the sins of alone SADDAM HUSSAIN? None of you raised such concerns at that moment. MOREOVER< why are you punishing all the Muslims for the actions of few who have taken up the guns or bombs?? by restricting their admissions to westren universties, restricting visas and banning head scarfs etc???

I can see the concern in your voice but were you also concerned once the poor Iraqis were suffering at the hands of the WEST for the man who was brought up by the WEST?? Or once innocent Muslims are arrested and harassed in westren countries for the offences of a few??

Oh, you surely was never so concerned, and why should you be??? Your blood and life is far sacred than of Muslims!!

Have you ever published or would ever dare to publish the cartoon of Baruch Goldstein and Yossef Bodansky (Jewish Rabbi and spritual guide of Goldstein) posed as the Nazi?? (Baruch Goldstein killed upto 50 worshippers in a mosque in Hebaron without any provocation).

If publishing such defaming, outrageous and disrespectful cartoons is freedom of speech then burining of Danish embessy and killing of its citizens shouldn't also be taken as "THE FREEDOM OF ACTION"?? 

Don't think that you have broken an Islamic principle. Does abusing someone's mother a Danish or Islamic problem?? It obviously is a universal infringement. Similarly, Prophet Muhammed is also dear to every Muslim more than his mother, father or children! You make cartoons of your popes, or our Mullahs, your kings or our rulers, your mothers or your fathers we don't care but don't abuse our Prophets, our mothers and our fathers. 

Why not Mr. Osama bin Laden should also be governed under the same so called Freedom of Speech?? Why should he be permitted to speak freely under the same rule then?? Why should Muslims clerics are be watched and harrased by the European governments from delivering Jehadi sermons?? Why they are not given the same freedom of speech?? Why are there double standards???

Why France has put the ban on scarf and why they can't put the ban on the cartoon?? Don't they think puting a head scraf is my or somebody elses freedom of action???

Are you trying to make other fools by this slogon once you hold different values for different people?? 

So why you expect that once you break all the norms of decency, manners, respect you should be greeted with flowers and hugs? Why is so? Have you ever thought of it??

What have you people done to tell that newspaper that don't hurt the feeling of others? I am sure you people must have done nothing but to laugh on the Muslim protests!! So it you are collectively feeling the pain what's the big deal about it??? And why should you be concerned, you people don't know how to give respect and earn respect. You don't have even regard for any religion, personality or even God. Its disgusting and shameful.

And dear Mr. David C!

You are right why Muslims are quite on bombings in Iraqi mosques. This is indeed disgusting but let me tell you that alongwith the Muslims, Israel, United States and Britin are also to be equally blamed. You would certainly try to brush away this with the old slogon of "COSPIRACIES THEORIES" but dear sir before saying this do read the following reports:

As June 30th approaches Israel looks to the Kurds by SEYMOUR M. HERSH Issue of 28-06-2004

The Muslim world After 9/11  published by RAND Corporation in 2004.

These are not the reports published by some Muslim Fundamentalist or a conspiary story teller these are some of the most well known policy institution and national magzine (which happens to be American Jewish). What the hell hundreds of Israeli military officials and MOSSAD people are doing in Kurdistan??  Cooking breakfast for the Iraqis or preparing the videos for the world portarying Muslims as terrorists?? or Funding the so called "Muslim Imams" to motivate the brain washed Iraqis to bomb the Shia Holy places??

The RAND corporation is telling that facilitating an internal war with in Islam should be the prime objective of US national foreign policy?? What does this mean?? To kill shia and put the blame on Sunnis and kill sunnis and put the blame on Shia!  

That is what is happening in Iraq. Trying to fulfill the Bible propheciy of 3 divisions in the land of Eupharities. 

The first few such attacks were certainly of the similar nature and later may be the plan worked and resulted in a chain reaction. So cheer up boys you peple are doing fine!!!

Shams Zaman    Pakistan 

Dear Shams Zaman, thank you for this wonderful post. It clearly requires several days of consideration. There are a few things I can address immedialely.

As for Iraq, I have no immediate comments. Denmark has got ~500 trops in Iraq. The purpose of these trops is to help the Iraq people. If they serve their purpose I don't now. I hope so. I see no reason to mix Iraq events with Danish drawings events. I don't want to include Iraq in this thread or discussion. With Iraq we can endlessly talk about who did what to whom.

I would frankly expect that we have more people in Danish Universities than ever before. I see no reason why this should not be the case. US might have enforced some restrictions, but I never heard about any in Denmark. I don't have any statistics though. 

"Have you ever published or would ever dare to publish the cartoon of Baruch Goldstein and Yossef Bodansky"

I know of the event. Not the persons involved. I see no problem with condeming these or making drawings of these. As nazis or whatever. 

"If publishing such defaming, outrageous and disrespectful cartoons is freedom of speech then burining of Danish embessy and killing of its citizens shouldn't also be taken as "THE FREEDOM OF ACTION"??"

This freedom of action puzzles me. Criminal law regulates freedom of action. You can't go around killing or hurting people. Freedom of speech is the right to say anything you want. Media is regulated by a different ruleset. Freedom of action is something I have not heard about before. Sounds like a lawless society to me. Your point with this is slowly coming across but requires time to think through.

I see no reason to discuss bin laden or 911 here in any context.

Muslims clerics are free to say whatever they want in Denmark. And they do. Surely you must have noticed. They might be criticised and condemned when people think they have gotten to far. Freedom of speech is a principle. As such is belongs to everybody. Also to them. You have no reason to think we don't think it does not belong to them. At the same time I would very much like to know what they are saying. As I posted before, some of them are actively working on making the Muslim community more angry. Spreading rumours, fake drawings and such. Some of them act in their perceived self-interest.  

One thing to note is that Muslim society in Denmark is built of Muslims from all over the world.

"Why France has put the ban on scarf and why they can't put the ban on the cartoon??"

You have to ask the French. In France its not just the scarf, its relogious symbols on pupils at school. In Denmark we don't have this rule. It has been discussed, but in our tradition we don't tend to make religious based laws. If it can be avoided we don't.

But the scarf has been an issue couple of times in Denmark. Muslim people working at a company with customer contact may require employed Muslims not to carry scarf. I am not sure if companies in Denmark are allowed to fire muslim women who wants to wear a scarfe at work. Can possibly be so, I don't see scarfs on people at work very frequently.

The scarf and controversy around the scarf must be understod in the context of women rights movements. And that the scarf is viewed as oppressive in general terms. This since the scarf (burka, what have you) is mandotary in certain parts of the world. Women wear this, not because they want to in all cases, but since they have to.

My favourite past-time in the summer in Denmark is to go on a bicycle trip. I frequently pass beaches. Here I see Muslim families. I can see the Muslim boys running around having fun and kicking a ball. And I can see Muslim girls fully dressed sitting down doing nothing. Looks very strange to me. I am sure the girls wants to play too. That's what kids do. The girls are not allowed I guess.

Close to where I live is housing for political refugees. Mostly families with small children. I have no contact with these. Often the woman and some children are walking on the pavement outsode my house. Sometimes I say good morning sometimes not. I never get any response. They come from some African country and the woman will be completely covered on cloth. I need eye contact to be able to relate to some other human being in a proper way.

"What have you people done to tell that newspaper that don't hurt the feeling of others? I am sure you people must have done nothing but to laugh on the Muslim protests!! So it you are collectively feeling the pain what's the big deal about it??? And why should you be concerned, you people don't know how to give respect and earn respect. You don't have even regard for any religion, personality or even God. Its disgusting and shameful."

Powerful words indeed. Right to the core of the issue at hand. I can only plead guily as charged. I have come here, not to say we are perfect, but to say the hurt felt, is not the harm intended.

The message saying the newspaper was wrong has come through crystal clear. The message saying we do not treat Muslims the way they deserve has also come through crystal clear. All of that I am sure we realized. At least I very much hope so.

But once we understand this, can we then please ask you to stop boycott, not to burn the Danish flag (that in Denmark is the symbol of the people, it also contains a the christian symbol the cross, disrespect for religious symbols can be found on both sides), not to threaten Danish citizens with beheading and to leave our embassies at alone. It is very difficult for us to change our way, in a way that is positive for Muslims, if we are under attack by Muslims. What I am saying is we got the message. Now please give us some time to take corrective action.

My reply has in no way made your excellent post justice. I have tried to give an immediate, and sincere response.

Please free me from conspiray theories.

To ak_m_f,
My age is 50.

Regarding the burning of the Danish embassy in Damaskus I have just watched the Danish news.

Regarding the demonstration. The demonstration a couple of days ago was not the source. My misstake. This one passed without problems.

Today there was another demonstration in the Danish city of Hiller�d. This was announced to a small sect of Danish neo-nazis. I am not sure about their agenda, but burning Quran may have been part of it. I frankly don't know how many neo-nazis sects we have in Danmark. If its one or a handful more. But as soon they show their ugly faces there is bound to be problems. There are always counter demonstrators, and it will always end up with vandalism and fights with the Danish police, in the middle trying to upheld peace and order.

No Quran has been burnt.

It was reported in the Danish news that an unnamed Iman had informed Syria that the Quran qould be burned in Danmark today. This contributed to the anger of people in Syria. Syrians not only burned the Danish embassy, also the Swedish one. This one was in the same building so thats explainable (sort of). But then then wandered to the Norwegian embassy and did the same. I find that rather odd.

Edit add: Also Chile's embassy in the same building as the Danish one was effected.

Pictures on TV shows a bunch of holigans completely out of control. I can only say that I do detest seeing any lynch mob going about their destructive business for whatever reason. 

Danish authorities are now going to examine if there are any Imans without Danish citizenship that can be expelled from Denmark. Some of them are Danish citizens and can't be touched. Many of these has been expelled from Egypt and other middle east countries for their extreme views, and found sanctionary in Denmark. I expect that the ones found acting against Danish interest, and that has done their best to create anger against Denmark, will be expelled. I support this. We cannot feed and protect people who does their best to hurt us.

I hope the embassy issue can be settled with diplomacy. Otherwise its becoming clear that we might need to shutdown Denmark for everything Muslim and completely turn our back to the Muslim world.

Things are not getting better. They are getting worse.

The Muslim world has made its point. Now is time to stop protest and give us a chance to make corrective actions in peace.

One more thing that might be important for the background of all this mess.

In my response to Angela above regarding the petition.

The refusal of the Danish primt minister to receive 11 Muslim embassadors should be viewed in this context.

The goverment got the request for the meeting, but understood they could only reply, sorry, we can do nothing about this newspaper publishing these pictures.

So rather then telling this to the face of the embassadors the goverment felt it would be more polite to explain this in a letter.

So it was not really a refusal. It was a decision to present the answer in another way. A misstake, probably yes. I don't think things would have been worse if the prime minister had seen them.

But then they might concluded that the prime minister saw them but refused to do nothing.

Following Danish, Swedish and Norwegian media on the burning of the embassies.

First of all, I would like to stress. I can't recall any deliberate attack on a Scandinavian embassy ever happening before.

The Danish goverment is much more upset then I expected that they would be. Seems this was much more than a spontanious demonstration where police and local authorities did not react quickly enough. The Danish embassy reported the demonstration to local police 4 times, requesting aid. They did not receive any.  

In Sweden the reporting is a bit more surpriced. This embassy was not directly attacked this may be reasonable.

The Norweigian newspapers I have checked are more direct. They view this as an attack sanctioned by the Syrian goverment. This is what the paper says. I don't know what the Norwegian goverment says.

Since Syria is a heavily controlled Police state, a demonstration like this can not take place without authorities being involved they say.

To me this sounds very likely, and the Danish goverment very strong reactions may indicate that they also think this. They have not said this, nor has Danish media.

If this is the case. Then the issue of the drawings are drifting somewhere in the background. What we are seeing now is different groups attempts to draw political benefit from the drawings. This has (to some extent) been the case from the start. If this happens the escalation of the conflict is automated. And it will take a lot of effort to slow this down.

Danish Muslims that don't feel represented by iman's has formed their own organization today.

It is expected there are 200.000 Muslims in Denmark. It has been estimated that around 10% are part of Muslim organizations represented by the imans.

Please note that Danish Muslims comes from all over the world.

I have in vain tried to find Scandinavian newspapers that prove information in English.

Here are links to Scandinavian papers. Looking at the pictures thay present may give you an idea of their reporting. As far as I know they don't publish the pictures, so you should be safe from insults. But since newspaper contents changes often I cannot give you any guarantees.

First the paper who started all of this. Right now they have an "open letter to all muslims" in Arabic (I think). The paper has received bomb threats for the past several days now.

http://www.jp.dk/ - http://www.jp.dk/

Jyllandsposten is one of the 3 major morning newspapers in Denmark. Here are links to the other 2.

http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=1 - http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=1

http://www.berlingske.dk/ - http://www.berlingske.dk/

Three Swedish morning newspapers:

http://www.dagensnyheter.se/ - http://www.dagensnyheter.se/

http://www.gp.se/gp/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=10 - http://www.gp.se/gp/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=10

http://sydsvenskan.se/ - http://sydsvenskan.se/

One Norweigian morning paper:

http://www.dagbladet.no/ - http://www.dagbladet.no/

I am not so familiar with Norwegian media. The reason I post morning papers is that, here they are the more serious newspapers. The eveing papers are more tabloids.

Bismillah

When innocent victims die, when bombs tear off governent buildings only then people begin to think of the seriousness of insulting the faithful believers...

The approach in "civilised" countries has conditioned public to ignore words, to ignore pleas, to ignore call to stop aggression and invasion but to take action only when someone gets hurt...  

Through media, those in despair have also been conditioned to answer with violence...

Little did the cartoonist realise that the bomb he was drawing was going to blow in real...

And yet again Muslims are to be blamed... What a wonderful world!

Wrangel, your defence of the "freedom of speech" baffles me.

 "Freedom of Speech" exists in most democracies, but it is always qualified by the fact that this freedom should exist within the boundaries of a civilised society. Where the freedom infringes upon the rights or freedoms of other people and when the freedom is used to incite violence through racism, should the Danish government not curtail and re-enact legislation to put limits upon it? Have you not heard of the debates on "The pen is mightier than the sword"?

You seemed to be appalled by freedom of action, but you think one can have a free reign with the freedom of speech, which is only a percursor to freedom of action. Unless the former is curtailed the latter cannot. The Danish PM should realise that his country has some foolish laws and should come forward and apologise and also request all those responsible to give an unqualified apology.

Hi Maraya,

I completely agree with what you say on freedom on speech. If you go back and re-read what I have written, you will find that I agree that changing Danish legislation i required. Freedom of speech exist is all democracies. You can't have one without the other.

Edit add. The freedom of action, I had not heard before. I am (slowly) starting to understand why it was brought up. I think understand, but I don't agree that freedom of speech has got anything to do with freedom of action. As a matter of fact, they seem completely contrary to me.

If out and break somebody's nose, you then need to suffer the consequence of your action. This must be what was ment. Please correct m,e if I'm wrong. But with (at least) absolut freedom of action, there would be no consequence.

Freedom of action is the strongs right to do whatever he pleases. A society with freedom of action only needs this single rule. This is facist, you are right, I am appaled by this.

When there is freedom of speech the strong has given up, his right to control what the weak may want to say.

If out and break somebody's nose, you then need to suffer the consequence of your action. This must be what was ment.

Mockba, as usual I understand very little of what you say. I wish you would stop using "civilized" when you describe me and people like me.

It was ok once or twice. Now I start to find it insulting. Also please post something you think I can understand, otherwise don't post at all.

Freedom of action is the strongs right to do whatever he pleases. A society with freedom of action only needs this single rule. This is facist, you are right, I am appaled by this.

When there is freedom of speech the strong has given up, his right to control what the weak may want to say.

Wrangel, I'm sorry I disagree with you here. To me freedom of expression without boundaries is totally wrong. Freedom of expression can manifest in different forms. To the literate it may be via speech or through writings or drawings. It is the intention that matters. Expression via the cartoons were meant to hurt and incite violence. The press has achieved its intention of hurting and creating racial enmity. The less literate's expression of freedom is via action. Both are wrong. But the former must be condemned more so because the education was used as means to create anger, hate and violence.

Bismillah

Wrangel wrote: Mockba, as usual I understand very little of what you say. I wish you would stop using "civilized" when you describe me and people like me. It was ok once or twice. Now I start to find it insulting. Also please post something you think I can understand, otherwise don't post at all.

Wrangle, your ability to understand is evident from the very subject that you've initiated. Danish newspaper insulted Muslims and is yet to apologise. Instead many more newspapers in many other countries joined in solidarity of an insult and re-printed the pictures. It is clearly an insult, but the question is: to apologise or to continue "you are with us or you are with the terrorists" approach. And it is not surprising that the latter prevails.

The Danish Prime Minister thought it right to educate Muslims on freedom of speech. Perhaps because they are all uncivilised as you rightly noticed.

I used the word "civilised" twice or three times (not to describe you, though) and you are already feeling insulted... now how would you feel if I made a disgusting insulting cartoon of you, your mother, your father, your sisters and brothers and published it for your entire nation to mock at... calling your entire brethren TERRORISTS in print and electronic media... on an hourly basis? Are you then going to advocate "freedom of speech" refusing to make any statement yourself?  The Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) status in Islam us such that he is/should be dearer to Muslims than their closest family members.

You may not understand this too, but this is about the simplest way I can comment on your posts in general.

Hi Maraga, I am not sure what you mean we disagree on. I have never advocated freedom of speech without boundaries. On the contrary, I insist there must be limitations. And there are, also according to Danish law. But the law is not strong enough.

Thank you Mockba for posting something I can understand. Please forget the stuff on the "civilized". If it was not directed to me I don't mind.

"The Danish Prime Minister thought it right to educate Muslims on freedom of speech." I don't he educated Muslims on freedom speech. He was/is trying to explain his lack of power due to Danish legislation.

Today I have sent an email to all political parties in Denmark with the following text:

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

In the view of the escalating conflict, it is becoming clear to me that more must be done. And more can done.

It must be possible to strengthen Danish media legislation, so that it becomes illegal for a newspaper to insult religious (and possibly other) groups. And at the same time have a free press. I see no conflict with this.

I therefore ask the xxxx party to immediately start work on a review of Danish media legislation, and publically announce that this is being done.

Too me it is obvious that is required. Otherwise can any Danish newspaper, start problems like this at any time. This is not resonable.

------------------------------------------------------------ ----- 

Below are web links or email addresses to the Danish political parties. I published web links to the ones that have information in English. You should have no problems finding their email address here, if you wish to communicate with them.

List is in no particular order.

Social Democrats.
http://socialdemokraterne.dk/default.aspx?site=english - http://socialdemokraterne.dk/default.aspx?site=english &

The Danish extreme left.
http://www.enhedslisten.dk/multi.asp?emne=english&side=default - http://www.enhedslisten.dk/multi.asp?emne=english&side=d efault

Danish liberal party, part of the goverment. The prime minister respresent this party.
http://www.venstre.dk/index.php?id=276 - http://www.venstre.dk/index.php?id=276

Conservative party. Also part of goverment. Foreign minister represent this party.

mailto:pressetjeneste@konservative.dk - [email protected]

Danish peoples party. The most right-wing party in parliment. A nationalistic party.
mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]

Small humanistic party in the center of the political scale. That is not a good description but the best I can come up with.
mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]

Socialistic peoples party. To the left of the Social Democrats.
mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]

Hi all,  this will be by hardest post ever since I have to cover so much and am very worried I fail to make myself clear.

Let me first cover the burning of our embassies. Acts of violence makes not hear the message or protest contents. But our embassies are not holy enough to spill blood. Its better that no police or demonstrators are hurt or killed. Let them burn our embassies. By international conventions it is up to local authorities to defend any embassies. If police pulls back when they have no other option its ok.

If you have not followed my posts from the start the rest will be hard to understand.

When I joined this forum a couple of days ago. My real question was, is the Islam world now about to enforce Muslim rules on Danes.

Reasoning was Muslim people don't draw pictures of living beings and then Muslims don't want non Muslims to draw the prophet.

That was the extent of my understanding of the conflict. Few words to summarize this: Bottomless ignorance.

Quickly, by posts of contributors here the understanding was moved. Now it is obvious that this is an insult so grave, Muslim people finds they cannot accept.  I can understand this so I go and seek solutions. Within freedom of press there limitations already. Adding another to honor Muslim requests should not be a problem.

Today while Danish embassies were burning there was a peace demonstration in Copenhagen. Danes and Muslims demonstrating together.

There have been no reports of any incidents between Muslims and Danes throughout these unfortunate days. We live side by side, just as before.

This evening there was a debate on Danish television. The first and major TV channel. It is non-commercial, meaning no ads, but independent, governed by Danish law.

Participation was a representative of the paper, representative of the government party (spokesman on foreign affairs), Danish people's party leader, parliment member from radical (party I mentioned above, a highly respected moderate Muslim), a Muslim lady (sorry I never was able to write down her name or organization), a Danish expert on Muslim world and finally the head of Muslim umbrella organization in Denmark, Ahmed Akkari.

I don't think I got Ahmed Akkari's names correctly spelled, No disrespect intended. Ahmed Akkari is closely related to the imam Ahmad Abu Laban, who Danish media (and myself) accused saying everything is fine to Danish media, and then saying continue boycott to middle east media. Danish media and I need to correct our statements on Ahmad Abu Laban. Ahmed Akkari has also been making a tour in the Middle East presenting the drawings, raising anger. By showing spreading the pictures, and also additional pictures not published. The addional pictures was the issue here. It is viewed in Denmark (and by me) as an attempt to spread additional problems. I am now convinced that this was not the case. The words of imam Ahmad Abu Laban also comes in a different light. If he tells the Danish media that he will smooth things over, and at the same time says to Middle East media that he is happy that Muslim people boycott Denmark, to defend the prophet. For me it's easy to see these statements as two messages can be viewed as two different messages. But with my current knowledge I can easily see that they are not.

Back to the debate on Danish television. For me it was a rather painful experience. Danish society (this includes me) is a secular society. The experiences to have a society based on religious believe has been so bad, that we finally, generations ago have been able to cast off this burden. The direct result of this is that we view the world in political terms. Not religious terms. We can perfectly well understand a discussion based on political terms. But when it comes to religious terms we are clueless.

For us to understand you are discussing based on religious terms, is a basic as for you to understand we are discussing in political terms. I am not saying one is better. But as we discuss on political terms and you on religious terms, we can spend eons talking past each other and never ever meet

This is what happened during the debate. The Danes are at my very first level when I came here. Is Islam trying to enforce rules on me?

Sad case, but they have felt hostility. I was curious enough to find out if my assumptions where true or not. Being here has speeded up my understanding. Before the debate viewers where encouraged to post questions for the debates. One was raised very early in the debate. It came from me. Yes, you heard right. Never heard me name read on Danish TV before. Same message as posted to Danish political parties. Unfortunately it was presented in the middle of a rather heated argument so it was quickly dismissed. But the debate leader at least thought it was interesting enough to be raised. It was about changing Danish legislation.

A second viewer question was raised 30 minutes into the debate. It was if Islam wanted to enforce Islam rules on Denmark or not. Sigh and double sigh.

I came to this board hoping I would learn and be able to tell people the boycott is unjust. Now I don't know. The Danes are not evil, Danes do not hurt people on purpose, but still they (we) do what seems right to them (us). Given time they (we) will learn.

Events are making it very hard to learn for them. Any act of violence completely blocks reasoning. So whatever any violent, hooligan does only makes matters worse. Previously gained understanding just flies away and is gone forever. Violent psychopaths we have, lock them up and charge to the full extent of the law.

Having said this I give you the small story about the Swedish flag. It's a story about a people loosing its symbol and gaining it back.

Not long ago, we are talking the 1980's. Swedish people stopped using the Swedish flag. You could only see it once in a while waving from some highly official event. Rarely else.

Neo-Nazi groups in Sweden noticed this; they started using the Swedish flag on all their events. Soon you could not show a Swedish flag without being regarded as a Nazi. After a long while the Swedish people realized this. Started using the flag and gradually won it back. Since last year Sweden has a national day. This is the eventual result of before having lost the flag.

In Denmark the story is different. The liberation of the Danish people came later. Denmark was occupied by Nazi Germany. The Danish flag is commonly used. For instance, when somebody have a birthday. The Danish flag is the main decoration.

I you like to go on with the boycott then am my guest. It's unfair but the (we) Danes are wrong here. We could do more to address the problem the Muslim world have every right to rise.

The Muslim world has to grab your religion out of the hands of violate people doing criminal acts. Burning embassies, flags, threatening lives of Scandinavian people so they have to leave countries, acts, As long as this happens most Danes will think they need to distance, and defend themselves from Islam. We will not learn anything by intimidation.

Nobody here has said anything about it being wrong to burn down a Danish embassy. I don't know if this goes without saying, or if people here just think: the Danes got what they deserved. They had this coming. But on the other hand, I am not here to defend every nutcase, we might have that wants to go out and commit criminal acts.

Its about time you start condeming criminal acts. If you don't then I can only assume you approve of them. Or dare not by being worried the feeling threatend not to do so. Otherwise there is no reason for me to post here.   

-----------------------------------------

I have edited this post several times. Some of it is still in small font. That is not intentional. Everything should be same size. I don't understand why. I hope I have fixed most of the spelling. When it comes to evil only computers are really evil..

Peace to you Wrangel,

If more people in the world were like you, there would be a lot less misunderstanding....you at least try your best to find out what the "other" is thinking/feeling, such a very admirable thing to do.

Please keep in mind that western media (North America, EU, Australia) tend to show things on the news that attract ratings and viewers.  If they interviewed me, and millions of Muslims who think and feel as I do, it would be boring.  Riots, flag burnings, out of control mobs, make for "better" news coverage.  The news agencies tend to give the viewers what they want to see.  There are a few exceptions, but not many.

Perhaps you didn't see this thread, where some of us call for cooler heads:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3597&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3597& ;PN=1

It seems in the world of media, the loud, outrageous, contentious, scary, extreme, attention getting stuff is what airs and what gets the ratings.  I believe our world view is quite twisted out of reality by what the media portrays.  It is getting to know real people and having open dialogue with them that can help us understand the "other".

I thank you for your posts here and the insight they give me (and others).  And for the record, I believe flag burning, threats and destruction of property (including embassy burning) are all wrong.  It is peaceful and lawful protest as well as genuine effort to know the "other" point of view that will lead to that elusive thing we call peace.

Peace, ummziba.

It seems to me like some right wing fascist group put out those cartoons to deliberately start a conflict. That's how fascists get in power; they create hatred. And the Muslims are falling right into the trap.

The Danes are cool. They stood up against Hitler; they wouldn't turn over their Jews and never collaborated with the Nazis. To blame the Danes because they have a small group of hate mongers (like every country does) is stupid.

I think they should have let the whole thing slide and it would have been forgotten.

I think the people that put out the cartoon in the first place are getting a good laugh over all the destruction and hatred they created.

Dear friends, I need some sincere input here.The sooner the better.

If you feel the Danish goverment must change Danish legislation I am prepared to start doing some serious work on this. No promises, it is highly unlikely that this will work.

Question is, would it make any difference to you?

Purpose would be that these particular events would not be repeated. Your cost will be that the rights that will be provided for you will include other groups as well. 

Bismillah,

Wrangle, the question you ask right here seems to be directed to the wrong audience.  Don't you need to ask the Muslims in Denmark what they would like because these laws effect them, not us?

There are a lot of detailed points that I don't have the time to go in to.  Sorry.

I read an article about this and the fact that the Danish government says that they cannot apologize for the Danish press.  They should strongly suggest that the Danish press apologize.    They should talk to the Muslims in Denmark as ask what they can do, short of taking responsibilty for someone else's actions, to rectify the situation politically. 

However, to be very clear, there are no Muslims who want to see or approve of this depiction of our Holy Prophet Muhammad, pbuh.  Now, take Osama Bin Laden's figure and draw him and we won't care.  Okay, someone we like:  Hmm, I like Hannan  Ashrawi, sp.  Draw a caricature of HER.  But NEVER our prophets, any of them, by the way! 

The leadership in all of the countries where these were published need to take a stand against it publically, AS IF IT MATTERED TO THEM!

Wrangl, It is a credit to you that you are engaging and intervening in events.

The point I was making is this. No amount of 'diplomatic' talk between diplomats, or the 'legal' reform of the laws of Denmark is going to resolve the economic, religious and cultural oppression that "the west" has been practicing in Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine for generations. THE 'CARTOON' WAS DESIGNED TO PROVOKE TROUBLE FOR ANYONE WHO OPPOSES THIS OPPRESSION, ESPECIALLY MUSLIMS.

If you do not understand this please get back to me and tell me why you don't understand this.

Best wishes 

Salam,

Brother rami, thanks for sharing the quote of Mahatma Gandhi about our beloved Prophet and Messenger Muhammad ( peace and blessings of Allah be upon him ). Mahatma Gandhi is respected as "father of nation-India".

Peace

It is not as if the known things are not bad enough in this regard (Wrangel, it's a pleasure to meet you) -who would have thought, for instance, that Danish "cartoons" might have the ability to spark a civil war in Lebanon?- but is anyone here researching, tracking, or otherwise noting that which the Independent here refers to as the "mysteriously unsourced" cartoons, or drawings? 

"In the autumn [2005], events began to move beyond Denmark, albeit unnoticed by Western media. On 14 November, there were protests in Islamabad, Pakistan. And, at some point (the timing is unclear), imams went to the Middle East to lobby leaders there, taking with them the cartoons, reportedly supplemented by far more inflammatory, but mysteriously unsourced, cartoons showing the prophet in acts of ..."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/article343290.ece - http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/article343290.e ce

Serv

Hi Tim, I see no indication that the drawings where posted in this context.

Today or tomorrow will Danish Muslim representatives meet with the Danish paper. Purpose is to formulate a common statement. Initiator to this meeting is Ahmed Akkari, head of umbrella organization for Danish muslims.

Servetus, as for the drawings of unknown sources.

Early January Ahmed Akkari and others travelled to Egypt with the drawings. Other drawings "of unknown origin" was also brought. I assume these are the drawings the Independent refers to. On this trip there where meetings with Muslim leaders.

Ahmed Akkari was critised for bringing the extra drawings, and his motives where questioned in Danish media. He insist that the drawings where kept separate. I believe him. In fact, his very constructive work following this trip has earned him, my deepest felt respect.

He realize that the Danish goverment was not involved in the publishing of the drawings. So he request no appology from the Danish goverment. He request an appology from the newspaper.

"Standard diplomatic practice will kick in now. The Danish government will protest to the Syrian government, the Syrian government will tighten security on the embassy and that should be the end of that." (Wrangel 4th Feb)

Has standard diplomatic practice kicked in yet?

Why do you insist on pursuing this matter as though it was only a local soap opera (Local serialized TV program)

Come on mate,please, open your eyes. The entire middle east bursting with outrage. Do you really think this anger is exclusively about the 'Cartoon'. Maybe, just maybe, it is the "straw that broke the Camel's back" = just one big insult to much after all the other insults and humiliations.

Please, tell me you are grasping this.

Best wishes Tim

Wrangel, I appreciate your sincere efforts in calming this storm. In my opinion the Danish PM should openly offer an apology to the Muslims without qualifications with respect to freedom of the press. Yes, freedom of the press has been grossly abused with obscene pictures and writings which in western nations has come to be accepted as normal. This freedom has now been extended without taking into consideration that Muslims do not have the same kind of mentality that the west has become conditioned to.

So I believe the legislation should be qualified with regards to the freedom of the press that provocation and obscenity inciting anger and violence should be avoided, eventhough so far it was understood.The matter is not merely for the Danish Muslims but all Muslims as this has affected all Muslims throughout the world.

Yes, Muslims do not differentiate between politics and religion. In Islam their is no separation of the church and state as in western democracies. Everything that Muslims do and think both in everday life and in the running of the state is intricately linked with Islamic thought and the fear and obedience to God.

Maragya, I fully agree.

Tim, I agree the conflict must be understood in a wider scope.

The current seemingly uncontrollable escalation, creates too much stress and preassure. Combine this with all the wonderful feedback I have received here, which has turned my view of the world up side down. I must now step back and give my regular live a chance. I no longer have the strength to think about this 24 hours per day. I need a break.

It is time to digest all views, and time to let emotions and intellectual understanding catch up. Participating here has fundamentally changed my view, and underrstanding of the Muslim world. All for the better.

I wish you all, all the very best.

Bye for now.

Dear brother Wrangel!

I am sorry if any of my questions were offending in nature. I tried to be rhetorical and not to be offending and if I have been unable to maintain the balance I am hopeful that you would forgive me. Indeed you or any other Dane can't be held directly responsible for that. And I was not trying to link Iraq with this issue but I was trying to bring out the hard reality that the action of governments usually harm a normal citizen than the government itself and its not only restricted to Denmark, it also happened in Iraq. I know Denmark is not to be blamed for the war in Iraq, but that due to the actions of West (USA, British, France etc) most Muslims see them as joined togather to harm Muslims intrests and belifs. 

You are absolutely right that the "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" should be within some sort of boundry. It may be very easy to figure out that most of us are very sensitive to our religion, parents and nationhood and these sensitive areas should not be targeted.

Like if I say some thing which would hurt all the Danes it should be considered as the infringement or misuse of the term "Freedom of speech".   Similarly if by some action I am destroying someone's property or causing some sort of physical damage it must not be termed as the "FREEDOM OF ACTION".

There is indeed that we respect the sensitive feelings of each other including the belief system. Like now some newspapers have published the cartoons of Prophet Jesus! This is again adding to our injuries. Jesus and all other Prophets are also as respectful and dear to us as Muhammad. This is indeed the most shameful act of proving that we are not concerned about the religious feelings of Muslims and Christians. Even if Christians don't care about it this will hurt the Muslims in the same manner as the publishing the cartoons previously.

I am very confident that we can resolve the issue by understanding each other sensitive areas to aviod the physocological and physical damage.

Hurting some one emotionally or physically should be termed as the misuse of the freedom of speech or action.

I pray that you suceed in your efforts.

Shams Zaman    Pakistan.

As a westerner, although non-christian, I am trying to understand the violent reaction of the Islamic world to the drawings of their prophet.  I have grown up understanding that FREEDOM OF SPEECH has just about no limits.  If we set a limit everytime someone was offended, we soon would have many thoughts and ideas that we could not express.

Are we to change our beliefs now that one offended group has become violent? 

I am worried that Islam and the West are on course for major conflict but do not believe we should change our values because of violence or threats of more violence.

More to the point Liberty how far should a host country bend over backwards to accomadate them...  Multi culturalism is a great idea but we all know it doesnt work esp when two religions with opposing ideas try to live side by side...  when one side has no apparent sense of humour.

I personally refuse to change my values, I am British through and through so like every typical Brit we wil only tolerate it for so long.. 

Back from break.

Dear Shams Zaman, None of your questions where offending. I find them quite valid. They did explain your views and concerns to me in a very clear way. I'd wish I was able to formulate meself so well.

Please visit this site. They make a statement in Arabic, English and Danish. I happily signed this one.

http://www.anotherdenmark.org - http://www.anotherdenmark.org

As for violent demonstrations, or criminal activity I don't view these as representatives, of any people that I have any wish to pay attention to. I don't think we have any reason to discuss this here.

I read the other thread started by J�rgensen.

I don't want to post there because of Syedtoronto's highly offensive post on "filthy Danes". I hope moderator will be doing something about that utter nonsense.

J�rgensen's and my views differ. J�rgensen accurately describes Danish conditions. Where we differ is that J�rgensen fails to draw any conclusions on what has happened. When former foreign minister, and former leader of the party now in charge of goverment says. We Danes now have to learn how to behave ourself in a global world. I agree with that. We have to learn, we cannot pretend as nothing has happened. We have to take the critisism to our hearts, and make changes.

Reading Shams Zaman's response to one of J�rgensens statements. I feel I have to make a comment.

"By publishing these cartoon and degrading a holy personality which questions were you seeking for and which kind of understanding was being promoted except for hate, anger, fury, bloodshed, damage to property, lose of lives and emotional injuries?? Is this all what should be promoted by the use of freedom of speech."

I would like to present the papers explaination on why they posted the drawings. This is in no way any excuse or whatever on my behalf.

The drawings should not have been published.

Here is what they say, I don't have the full details.

In connection with publishing a chidren book in Denmark, on Islam, it case to the newspapers attention that the publisher had problems finding a drawer for some illustration. So based on this they figured they would create their own drawings, and published them.

Further statements for the newspaper shows they have a fundamentalistic view on their freedom of press. But they have also said, they would never have published them, if they knew what would happen.

I can't follow their reasoning, or how they made their decision. But when saying "for hate, anger, fury, bloodshed, damage to property, lose of lives and emotional injuries?"

That is something I cannot imagine being the reason. What makes you think Jyllandposten had this intention?

Yes, Muslims do not differentiate between politics and religion. In Islam their is no separation of the church and state as in western democracies. Everything that Muslims do and think both in everday life and in the running of the state is intricately linked with Islamic thought and the fear and obedience to God.

If this is the case, I do not understand how muslims and democracies can co-exist.  Please explain.

Dear Wrangel!

I had to say this: By publishing these cartoon and degrading a holy personality which questions were you seeking for and which kind of understanding was being promoted except for hate, anger, fury, bloodshed, damage to property, lose of lives and emotional injuries?? Is this all what should be promoted by the use of freedom of speech because the editor (Mr. Rose) of the newspaper is a great fan of Mr. Daniel Pipes who is a great and famous critic of Islam and his cinycal articles are very frequently published in the US and Jewish press. (Jewish World Review is one frequent place). So the re-publishing of these cartoons were by design (although some may not agree with my piont of view).

Daniel Pipes exactly knew that there would be a violent reaction after the publishing of these cartoons but he failed the first time. Most of the Muslim ambessadors tried to met the Danish Prime Minister to express their concernes over these cartoons but the Prime minister refused to meet them. This propbably happened in Sep or Oct 2005.

Once the cartoons didn't got much attention in the Muslim world as the news didn't make any headlines, they were again published and this time the lobby which is working on the Huntington Theory was over joyed. Because they got more than what they had expected.

Today in Pakistan as well the ignorant peple fell to the plot of these conspirators and damaged the property by burning it down and two people died due to these clashes.

I can just hope and pray that US and EU should use their brains to deal with Iran in a responsible way other wise we are straight leading to the CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS which seems down the road.

Shams Zaman

I have seen reports on Danish TV and papers that they where published by an Egypt tabloid in October.

Hi Shams Zaman, I don't know who Mr. Daniel Pipes is. Or who Mr. Rose (Cultural editor of Jyllandsposten) has as fan. Mr Rose is not the only one at Jyllandsposten responsible for publishing the drawings. He too has a boss. Mr. Rose was sent on a forced, indefinite vacation by his boss, a week or so ago.

Your theory makes no sense to me. If Jyllandsposten or Mr. Rose where doing some campaign with some evil purpose. I would expect them to work a bit harder to create this situation.

Jyllandsposten published once. The drawings has not been been published in Denmark since.

The big problems started shortly after the Muslim leaders and Imans went to Middle East with the drawings. And extra drawings. This does not mean they wished all these problems.

The problem is that the drawings where published, no Danes realized there was an insult, many Muslims where insulted. I have never heard even a hint in Denmark, that this would be a fabriced intended insult. Not a single word. Not from any media or not from anybody I have talked to.

You say:

"Today in Pakistan as well the ignorant peple fell to the plot of these conspirators and damaged the property by burning it down and two people died due to these clashes."

The way I read this in the context of your fabricated insult theory, you make it sound like violent protestors are victims to some evil conspiration. The purpose of the conspiration would be to provoce violent protests. I think violent protestors have to take full responsability for their own actions, and should be held accountable for their actions by law. This does not mean I wish them killed, or harmed in any way.

Ambassadors (8 or 11 can't recall) requested a meeting with the Danish prime minister in October last year. To protest against the drawings. He did not meet them. They received a response in the form of a letter.

The prime minister says that this was determined to be polite and diplomatically correct way to respond. My impression is that they not just would express concerns. But also would demand that the goverment take action against the newspaper. Since he knew he would not be able to, under Danish law, to interfere with the newspaper. A letter was sent instead.

For this he has been heavenly critizised in Denmark. Right after this "refused" meeting, for instance. 22 former Danish ambassadors published an open letter protestating against this. The former ambassadors did not feel the prime minister had treated the issue the Muslim ambassadors raised, with proper seriousness. They said he should have meet them instead of sending a letter.

Liberty posted:

"Yes, Muslims do not differentiate between politics and religion. In Islam their is no separation of the church and state as in western democracies. Everything that Muslims do and think both in everday life and in the running of the state is intricately linked with Islamic thought and the fear and obedience to God.

If this is the case, I do not understand how muslims and democracies can co-exist.  Please explain."

Read a book or 2 on Turkey. Thats one current example that pops to my mind.

Going off on a slight tangent... some history.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/ - http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

Controversy over the publication of images depicting Mohammed in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten has erupted into an international furor. While Muslims worldwide have called for a boycott of Denmark and any other nation whose press reprints the cartoons, Europeans are trying to stand up for Western principles of freedom of speech and not cave in to self-censorship in the name of multiculturalism and fear.

While the debate rages, an important point has been overlooked: despite the supposed Islamic prohibition against depicting Mohammed under any circumstances, hundreds of paintings, drawings and other images of Mohammed have been created over the centuries, with nary a word of complaint from the Muslim world. The recent cartoons in Jyllands-Posten are nothing new; it's just that no other images of Mohammed have ever been so widely publicized.

This page is an archive of numerous depictions of Mohammed, to serve as a reminder that such imagery has been part of Western and Islamic culture since the Middle Ages -- and to serve as a resource for those interested in freedom of expression. (Please note that the Arabic name "Mohammed" has over the years been transliterated into Western languages with several different spellings -- some of which you'll encounter on this site -- including Mahomet, Muhammad, and Mohamed.)

The images in the Mohammed Image Archive have been divided into the following categories; click on these links to view the images in each section: 

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/ -

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/ - Islamic Depictions of Mohammed in Full  
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_face_hidden/ -

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_face_hidden/ - Islamic Depictions of Mohammed with Face Hidden  
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/euro_medi_ren/ -

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/euro_medi_ren/ - European Medieval and Renaissance Images  
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/misc_mo/ -

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/misc_mo/ - Miscellaneous Mohammed Images  
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/book_illos/ -

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/book_illos/ - Book Illustrations 
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/dantes_inferno/ -

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/dantes_inferno/ - Dante's Inferno  
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/book_covers/ -

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/book_covers/ - French Book Covers  
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/modern_satires/ -

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/modern_satires/ - Satirical Modern Cartoons  
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/jyllands-posten_cartoons/ -

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/jyllands-posten_cartoons/ - The Jyllands-Posten Cartoons  
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/recent/ -

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/recent/ - Recent Responses to the Controversy  
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/links/ -

Wrangel wrote: I don't know who Mr. Daniel Pipes is.

Daniel Pipes is to Muslims what Joseph Goebbels was to the Jews.

I know this will be greeted with a MASSIVE wall of silence but hey, if it's good for the goose its good for the gander... But it would be interesting to hear why this went unvoiced, even though it is far worse than the harmless cartoons in some paper that no one reads.

Mohammed's appearance on South Park fails to spark outcry
By Chris Hastings and Beth Jones
(Filed: 05/02/2006)

An episode of South Park, the controversial American cartoon show, which featured a visual portrayal of the prophet Mohammed, has been screened on British television twice and can currently be viewed on the internet.

The episode, entitled The Super Best Friends, did not attract a single complaint from Muslim clerics when it was aired by Channel 4 in 2002 and 2003. The lack of protest is in stark contrast to the controversy over the recent newspaper publication of cartoons depicting Mohammed.

The episode casts Mohammed as a Muslim super-hero who joins forces with Jesus and Moses, both of whom are considered prophets in the Muslim faith.

Matt Stone and Trey Parker, the show's creators, gave each of the religious figures a set of special powers to take on a rival Church founded by David Blaine, the American illusionist.

In one scene Mohammed is shown rising in the air so he can do battle with the Lincoln Memorial, which has been brought to life by Blaine. The prophet, who is swatted away by the statue, cries: "Is it too powerful, Jesus?"

They decide the only way to defeat the Lincoln monster is to build a giant statue of John Wilkes Booth, the man who assassinated the real Abraham Lincoln.

Shakeel Ali, the head of the Glasgow branch of Young Muslims UK, said the lack of outrage over the South Park episode was probably due to the fact that most Muslims were not aware of it.

"Muslims see any depiction of the prophets as demeaning and this episode would cause hurt to Muslims wherever it was shown," he said.

It is not the first time that South Park has used Islamic figures for humourous purposes. In an episode screened in 2000, entitled Chef Goes Nanners, the character of the chef, voiced by Isaac Hayes, changes his name to Abdul Mohammed Jabar-Rouf Kareem Ali and adopts the Muslim faith.

The show also ran an episode entitled Osama Bin Laden Has Farty Pants in November 2001.

The Super Best Friends, which is part of the fifth series of the animated satire, is not available on DVD or video in Britain because Central Station, the channel which produces the show, has not yet presented it for certification by the British Board of Film Classification.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/main.jhtml?view=TERMSCONDITIONS&grid=P9 -  

Just a couple of reflections. There has been so many posts here now, its hard to digest them all. Please add "my view" to any sentense I post. I can't speak for everybody in Denmark.

Just to return to why I am here, what I think I have learned . Or in other words what the facts are, in the view of the drawings Jyllandsposten published.

Jyllandsposten posted the drawings with the purpose of raise debate on self-censorship in media. For anyone willing to listen Jyllandsposten has said, they would never have done this if they realized the consequenes this decision would bring.

This is how close to an appology you will ever come from Jyllandsposten.

Nor the Danish goverment or the Danish people has any influence on what Jyllandsposten publish. Only Danish law, newspaper ethics and self-imbosed cencorswhip decides what is wrong or right to publish.

They published September 30. Late January all hell broke loose.

I don't care why it tok 4 months for all hell to break loose. The fact that so many Muslims has been so deeply offened is enough for me.

From this my conclusions are several.

From morale basis I see that it is wrong for a newspaper, or anybody else to insult Muslims, religious groups, other groups.  

From practical purposes, let me just say, I don't want anything even close to this, ever happening again.

Mind you, religious groups often present views that I find highly questionable. If religious groups are not not be insulted. Then must religious groups show the very same restraints. There is no reason for religious groups, not to show the same respect for other groups, that they request.

------------------------------------------------------------ --

Ketchup with his latest post raised two issues that I have been thinking about. First one is easy. I believe there is a missunderstanding by non-Muslims, that Muslims don't have humor.

The movie "Life of Brian" was banned in Norway, based on legislation to not insult religious groups. Lack of legislation to protect relgious groups in Denmark, comes from oppression from extreme christian groups. I think Norwegian law since has changed.

Until a few years ago, there was (well, its still there) a christian holiday in Denmark. Called the "Big Preyers" day. By law everything was closed. Extreme christians felt this day would have to be so very booring for everybody so everything was closed. After years, people had enough. Movie theaters where opened up anway. The law was abandoned. 

The other, this was brought on by somebody posting "filthy Danes". I have been thinking about why that remark made me angry. I have also spent some time understanding why the Danish cartoons makes Muslims angry. So far it is easier for me to understand why the Danish cartoons are insulting, then why "filthy Danes" insulting.

The "filthy Danes" I best understand. When I say I best understand, I mean I best understand my reaction. What the poster intended, I'm pretty clueless. If it was his intention to insult, or something taken out of context, part of his retorik, I don't know.

But as such, the formulation is very foriegn in my vocabularity. And viewed in the context of this thread. And specially in the context of the thread it was presented. It came is a lightening, suddenly out of the sky. And formulated in a way I am not used to. If he called all Danes idiots, I might have been upset. Now I was angry.

------------------------------------------------------------

Some additional observations.

I heard in interview on radio with a Saudi businessman. He expressed many dialoge seeking, fully understandable views. Then I was suprised to hear that he thought western laws that surpress freedom of speech on holocast, racial discrimination was hyprotical. I can only say, if we did not have these laws. If we did tolerate nazi views, the current problem would be a lot worse.

When the president of Iran publically goes out and denies holocast. Is beyond sanity. Nazis mercilessly murdered jews, gypsies, homosexuals, handicapped people and anybody who did not support their murdering. For an official representative of a country to make a statement like that. And to repeat this ... I just shake my head in sadness.

In Denmark we have had 2 attempts by right wing extremes to go demonstrating. Both has been quickly dismissed and stopped. There has been many peaceful demonstrations with participants from the entire spectra of Danish society, for peaceful dialog.

When we have laws that regulates nazi groups freedom of speech. It's because we have learned throughout decades that these groups thrive on misery, and feed of hatred. Making laws to surpress them is is not hyprocity, it is nessesity.

Edit add:

The fact that it has become clear to me that I no longer can visit all parts of the world, with the danger of being hurt, or simply being not wellcome, is a catastrophe. Muslims are wellcome to visit Denmark, I know of no restrictions enforced by any authorities, or by any groups that use violence Muslims that will prevent this. Estimated 200.000 Muslims live in Denmark. I have not heard a single complaint, that this has lead to any problems for any of these 200.000 persons. I have heard of no group in Denmark threatening them in any way.

My wife's 50 years anniversity is coming up late February. My suggestion was to goto Egypt for this. Her vote was Berlin, so of course, it was Berlin. I am happy she picked Berlin.

I would very much wellcome more Muslim participation in this thread. How can we move on? How can Danes contribute?

I realize that my posts has been a lot out myself, my views, and how this has impacted me personally. But it has severaly impacted me, emotionally, political thinking, my world has been shrinking, I have found good sane views where I thought I would find hostility, I have found hostility where I thought I would find warm wellcome. I am struggling to get through this in one piece. Just like anybody else I assume.

I also realize I must seem naive to most posters. I can assure you this is not the case. But in order to listen and to learn I must be naive. I must most of all trust that others are telling me the (or their) thruth.

Cynics might serve a purpose in everyday life, but not in crisis. Denmark is in its worst crisis now since being occupied by nazi Germany. We have to go back ~65 years, and occupation. Make no misstake about that. It may be a small crisis from your perspective, but from ours its very real.

liberty wrote: Yes, Muslims do not differentiate between politics and religion. In Islam their is no separation of the church and state as in western democracies. Everything that Muslims do and think both in everday life and in the running of the state is intricately linked with Islamic thought and the fear and obedience to God. If this is the case, I do not understand how muslims and democracies can co-exist.  Please explain.

Its not correct to view Islam through the monocule of "Christianity", I suppose. Islam provides the moral ethics of politics to govern and not just any specific form of government, it could be democracy, whatever form of it a particular society chooses to live by. 

Dear Wrangel,

I knew that like most westreners you would be also unaware of Daniel Pipes and the on going conspiracies in the world. You pepole would reliaze this very soon but by that time it would be too late. However to see some glimpses you can read my post regarding the question of 9 11 and Muslim perspective in Intra-Faith dialouge forum. I pray that you should have heard about Huntington, and Fukuyhma etc who are collaborating with the conspirators. The ignorance of you people have brought the world to all this.

You would also call this cartoon row, and releasing of picture from Abu-Ghraib pictures and releasing the video fottage of British soldiers simultaneously as a coincidence. Like the previous pictures of Abu-Ghraib and burning of US soldiers on the streets along with the vedios of westren hostages was a coincidence!!! So ther are lot of coincidence happening in the media since 9 11.

The rejection of Danish PM must be O.K for you but for me its simply is a disgrace. Once you go to someone for the redress of griviences and you are denied a meeting its not O.K Its very much insulting and intentional.

How democracy is compatible with the religion or Islam! Very simple we don't believe in absolute free democracy like of your freedom of speech. We have limitations explained by God cansidered as the devine boundries and can;t be crossed for any reason. Gay marrige, adultary, drinking, free sex etc are such examples.

However we are free to select, elect, express our views, perform etc within the divine boundries. This is how westren democracy and freedom of speech differs over Islamic Democracy and freedom of speech.

Shams Zaman

Dear Shams Zalam, I very much appreciate your views.

When it comes to conspiracy theories, I am not interested. The world is too full of them and I do not intend to discuss any of them in any way. I stick to the facts as I can see them. For me, conspiration theories attempts to explain complex events in even more complex terms. They don't clarify anything, they just cloud things.

To me they come from lack of faith in press, media and authorities. In this world, with an open mind, you basically have to decide who you are going to believe. If that decision is not based on knowledge, trust and belief in yourself. You end up anywhere. In the end its your personal common sense that guides you.

"releasing the video fottage of British soldiers simultaneously as a coincidence."

Let me silently point out that it was Australian media who released these appaling pictures. A free press will release anything they consider news, anything to keep goverment actions under scrutiny. How you can imagine that publishing these criminal acts, is part of some conspiracy is beyond me.

I can't imagine what the aim of this conspiracy would be. They simply discrace portions the British army. Other footage discrase portions of the US army. I hope they get their fair sentences. End of story for me.

I presented the official story the Danish PM presents. It is perfectly ok to critise him. Several does. But at the same time I would like to question why Muslim ambassadors requests a meeting with him. With a main agenda they, if they are vaguely familiar with Danish customs and laws, should know very well is impossible for the Danish pm to agree to.

To me it seems he was trapped. Regardless of what he did, he would be blamed. No meeting refusal, meeting and then he refused to meet their demands. Game of words, in other words.

"How democracy is compatible with the religion or Islam!"

I am so ignorant about Islam. I understand there is the Islam law. The possible conflict I can see here is that I think (and democracy kind of dictates) that laws are made made by the majority of the population. That majority of the population might found their political views on Islam. But the people decides in the end. Not religion, not priests. I don't know if these are terms that contridict each other.

Freedom of speech is required for a democracy. We don't have freedom of speech. Or rather, I think we are talking about freedom of press. As I mentioned before, it is regulated by law, there are limititations. Law, press ethics and self-cencorship. The self-cencorship has resulted is no other Danish paper publishing the drawings.

In Denmark, Islam organizations, (can't remember the spelling or their name) have meetings with the clear message saying they want to turn Denmark into an Islam state. This is tolaterated, media politely broadcast their views. No police protection is required.

Can you imagine me in Palistine, Pakistan, Indonesia, Iran, ... waving a Danish flag saying now I am going to work hard to make this country a country governed by Christian priests?

"We have limitations explained by God cansidered as the devine boundries"

Yes, we should have respect for peoples believes. On this planet are many believes. What is devine boundaries for some, are not divine boundaries for others. A religon can attempt to enforce believs in followers, not in others. Respect works both ways here. By publishing the drawings the Danish newspaper did not show proper respect.

"Gay marrige, adultary, drinking, free sex etc are such examples."

Gay marrige, if religious people think they can insult and oppress people based on sexual preference, then I object. People of other sexual preference have a hard life in most societies. Adding to their burden is cruel and in-sensitive. Any religion that expresses dislike and oppression for this, I cannot describe as peaceful and loving. I will not be part of that.

Adultary, from practical life adultary is something we have to live with. It is regretful, but humans are humans. I have yet to discover a society, religion, .... that can claim itself to be without adultery. I have been married now since 1983, I intend to stay married to my wife for the rest of my life. Out of love and respect for her.

Drinking, ok, less drinking would not hurt any.

Free sex, is an unknown concept to me. If you mean to have no sexual education for teenagers, and pregnent teenagers I disagree.

"However we are free to select, elect, express our views, perform etc within the divine boundries. This is how westren democracy and freedom of speech differs over Islamic Democracy and freedom of speech."

I am happy to hear this, if you feel free to select, elect, express and perform then we are not so different. There can be no life without divinity, divinity has yet to be fully understod, at least by me.

Shams Zaman wrote: How democracy is compatible with the religion or Islam! Very simple we don't believe in absolute free democracy like of your freedom of speech. We have limitations explained by God cansidered as the devine boundries and can;t be crossed for any reason. Gay marrige, adultary, drinking, free sex etc are such examples. However we are free to select, elect, express our views, perform etc within the divine boundries. This is how westren democracy and freedom of speech differs over Islamic Democracy and freedom of speech. Shams Zaman

These examples are common in western culture and for those that live there (by choice), will we eventually be made to give up these things because they are not compatible with Islam?  I'm not going to get into an arguement over homeosexuality etc and drinking etc for now..  but I believe it would be wrong to change another countries culture how ever imperfect.

Brother AhmadJoyia, thank you for taking the time to reply, I like your posts and respect what you have to say. 

AhmadJoyia wrote: ketchup wrote: These examples are common in western culture and for those that live there (by choice), will we eventually be made to give up these things because they are not compatible with Islam?  Islam never compels anyone to change but urges its human intellect to ponder upon. Though bro Shams have pointed out some of the negative examples from the west, but forgot to highlights so many good prevailing their which are distinctively missing in his (or our) own backyard. I think, it will not be a justice, if we don't mention here. Tolerance and freedom of expression, are few such excellent traits of the west, that one can't match with the rest of the world. I would not be wrong that the way we can express about our feelings here in this side of the world, I can't imagine doing so back in my own home country. So, for me, its more prudent to struggle to change the state of affairs of my native country than pointing out any where else.

Thank you for your honesty, and this is most appreciated.  It is refreshing to see someone being honest which, dispite popular belief isn't a weakness... this shows strength.

I'm not going to get into an arguement over homeosexuality etc and drinking etc for now.. Ok! perhaps you may also abhor them. But the point in here is, what is the reference for your "pick and choose" of morality, without faith? Ah!, this may lead us back to the same discussion. And I don't want to get into it, over here. Would you mind if we didn't go over morality for a bit?  I respect your veiws, you respect mine but, without a shread of evidence we would  continue in our loop.. as fun as it is, its still endless. ketchup wrote: ...... but I believe it would be wrong to change another countries culture how ever imperfect. yap! that is a futile effort to change the culture, if anyone is trying to do that, but I think, improving the morals, is just something that we may all talk about, irrespective of our origins. Can we? We can talk about change and change is always good.  But for this to work we have to accept there is a chance that morals exist without faith... Its a tough nut to crack. Take care.

Kechup,

So, you have taken the coarse of creeping to the honest people on this site. 'Honesty is the best option' unless you are a British Nationalist provocateur. In which case you will use any cover to ingratiate yourself, in order to undermine the development of common theory.   

AhmadJoyia wrote: ketchp wrote: ....We can talk about change and change is always good.  Yes, lets talk about change, and change according to what? Hmm! Let us talk about change according to UN charter of human rights. Would that be fine with you?

I was more thinking more along the lines of natural change.. unless we are assuming the only reason man is here is to destroy himself.   

..... But for this to work we have to accept there is a chance that morals exist without faith...

[/QUOTE]

Probably not.

Tim Evans wrote: Kechup, So, you have taken the coarse of creeping to the honest people on this site. 'Honesty is the best option' unless you are a British Nationalist provocateur. In which case you will use any cover to ingratiate yourself, in order to undermine the development of common theory.

Look puppy, if you want to keep following me around gnashing your teeth take it to PM.

I don't know what the guys are talking about above.

Let me contribute with how Danish dialog seeking web-page has been hacked:

http://www.vennebillede.dk - www.vennebillede.dk (can be directly translated into friend-pictures). People are encouraged to publish photos of their Danish and Muslims friends. Of course, some cannot tolerate this.

A cut and paste of text of the current content can be seen here. Some characters are unprintable on my system.

 This site hacked by

Altanaya_Boy

&

Hacker-ksa

 d ???? ???? a

d Allah Akbar a

FOR ALL MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD

Denmark Please Respect All Prophets Of GOD " Allah "

Admin Don't Worry ... Muslims are not Terrorists !! ... No Files Deleted

 Only Editing your Index.*

ISLAM Ruled The World

See The History Books!

Special Greetings:

All Muslims Hackers Around The World
 

E-mail :

mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]

mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]

------------------------------------------------------------ -

I have just read though this long and fascinating debate, after a quick search on Google for an islamic reaction to the Prophet cartoons, turned up this forum. It has been an interesting ride, and has informed me of much that I was not aware. As well as providing me with links to the offending drawings courtesy of Ketchup (I'll get to him in a moment).

As a non muslim living in Norway, I have never had any bad feelings against ANY religion or faith. But now, that my children have expressed fear to me, ("Why are the muslims attacking Denmark and Norway Daddy???) I had to look to see if I could find some Muslim condemnation of the EXTREME reaction to the satirical drawings of your Prophet.

I have, on this list, and I am glad. I can tell mmy children NOT TO WORRY, that they are safe and that i is only a small percentage of muslims that are so violent and terrifying.

I have to agree with Tim that Ketchups posts seem to be tainted as one with an adenda, the Union Flag, the RE-posting of links to the offending drawings, (did I also spot an anti semitic and anti gay stance in there???) it all seems to point to the ravings of a neo nazi (I know Iknow Ketchup, I know you will have a go at me for your use of the flag, why shouldnt you... its the flag of the uk. etc... but you ALSO no its connotations. And in public you should avoid them unless you mean to provoke)

My belief is that one should NOT offend other peoples beliefs, religeons, or anything else really. By this I mean one should not insult or oppress a Muslim, a Jew, a woman, a blackman, a homosexual, anyone. BUT... and its a very BIG but.... BUT I think its important to have restraint when you yourself are under attack. I am a christian, but I found the previously mentioned film "Life of Brian" hystericaly funny and not in anyway offensive to me or my religeon. Christianity is 2006 years old, I think Jesus can survive a bit of teasing.

I think that the publication of the drawings in the Danish newspaper was not meant to be offensive, I believe it was merely un-informed, someone should have realised that it could be offensive to some Muslims, and maybe reconsidered the publication. However, having seen the drawing now, I really do NOT know what the fuss is about, and I would really like to know from Muslims what this offense REALLY is, feels like. Are you offended by the actual drawings or that someone dares to perform this blasphemy to your religeon? Please do not tell me that its Islamic law not to depic the Mohamed, I know this, but is it so important that you have to kill people??

People, people... these were a few drawings... Why Kill people over it? Can you NOT see this is an extreme reaction...

PLease... We are all getting scared of each other, and that scares me...

Mark

"Why Kill people over it?" Ironically speaking, other than destruction to the property during the voilance, killing has not been linked to any racial/ethenic/religious/cultural association. Killing, I think, was a direct consequence of a "mob" action. Was there any "non Muslim" that got killed in these voilances? I don't know.

"Why Kill people over it?" Ironically speaking, other than destruction to the property during the voilance, killing has not been linked to any racial/ethenic/religious/cultural association. Killing, I think, was a direct consequence of a "mob" action.

This is true, but from where Im sitting an accidental death due to mob action.. is still un acceptable, is it not? No mob = no deaths.

Ive thought about it, its semantics...I still call it killing...

mark wrote: I have to agree with Tim that Ketchups posts seem to be tainted as one with an adenda, the Union Flag, the RE-posting of links to the offending drawings, (did I also spot an anti semitic and anti gay stance in there???) it all seems to point to the ravings of a neo nazi (I know Iknow Ketchup, I know you will have a go at me for your use of the flag, why shouldnt you... its the flag of the uk. etc... but you ALSO no its connotations. And in public you should avoid them unless you mean to provoke) My belief is that one should NOT offend other peoples beliefs, religeons, or anything else really. By this I mean one should not insult or oppress a Muslim, a Jew, a woman, a blackman, a homosexual, anyone. BUT... and its a very BIG but.... BUT I think its important to have restraint when you yourself are under attack. I am a christian, but I found the previously mentioned film "Life of Brian" hystericaly funny and not in anyway offensive to me or my religeon. Christianity is 2006 years old, I think Jesus can survive a bit of teasing.

Fair point and duely noted. 

Posting links.  I was just pointing out that this is not the first time images have been printed, so on these grounds if it was acceptable then why isnt it now.  I was asked for proof that the pictures had been printed in arab papers back in October, 3 months prior to the protests and riots without a squeek, yet it only kicks off after leaders on a smear campaign stirred it up in january. 

I don't see any problem with the union jack.  It's just an avatar.  There is not anti anything even if I do have reservations over a few issues.   People have a right to practice thier own sexuality, religion etc as they deem fit.  Heck, I don't like the taste of dried fruit but it doesnt mean I think they should be banned from all cake products... except musli because its a pain having to pick them out lol

Life of brian is hilarious have to agree with you there.

Roman Soldier: Anybody here who does not want to be crucified, raise their hand now... that's what I thought.

[addressing men whose arms are already nailed to crosses]

This is true, but from where Im sitting an accidental death due to mob action.. is still un acceptable, is it not? No mob = no deaths. Ive thought about it, its semantics...I still call it killing...

Since there is a war against extremists, both physically as well as academically, any opportunity through which they can "win" the feeling of masses through emotioanl incitation, they would not let it slip away.

From my own analysis of the situation, I think, if its the fault of those who published such material, then it was even worst on those who projected this issue, intentionally or unintentionally, outside the geographical boundaries of that country, solely for the purpose of inciting people through their emotions. However, worst came when, the same material was republished in mulitple journals, to counter the initial reaction. It was this time, then the opportunist's rehtorics becames seemingly plausible, even to those who initially rejected them.

Containment of the issue was the responsibiltiy of those who are the incharge of the place where this incident initally occured. Instead of raising their both hands up, they should have, not for the purpose to suppress the freedom of expression, but on a higher moral ground, for the purpose of securing the rights of their own helpless miniority, should have snubbed its publisher. 

ketchup wrote: ......Heck, I don't like the taste of dried fruit but it doesnt mean I think they should be banned from all cake products... except musli because its a pain having to pick them out lol

What shall anyone understand what this "musli" is, if picking on "musli m" not being done, here?

If anyone have trouble to pick a "musli" for a date or something like that purpose, I can understand that; but its beyond imagination, epecially if its coming from people like you, ketchup.

Well that WAS incredible...

I have to say I dont know who I think is being dense here? I really dont think Ketchup spotted that musli is simerlar to muslim... he was just mentioning a breakfast cereal that contained dried fruit!!!!!

So AhmedJoyia, you are INCREDibly touchy, for even spotting that IMHO...

Unless its true!!! That Ketchup REALLY did intend that pun/similie/whatever... inwhich case he really is a fascist asshole and I am INCREDIBLY naive and foolish for not noticing...!!!

Which ever it is, I learned that Musli is very simerlar to Muslim as a word... and that its very easy to have a misunderstanding!

Mark (wellcome to the forum and the thread), AhmadJoyia and Ketchup are discussing something. I don't know what. What AhmadJoyia says makes perfect sense to me as a Swede living in Denmark.

Well, I still remain confident that the persons who projected the issue outside the geographical boundaries of that country, did this without any hostile intent, or any wish to cause harm. They found no support in Denmark, so where should they turn to?

Only possible problem it tok me several readings of AhmadJoyia's post, to finally understand what he is saying.

I leave it to AhmadJoyia to clarify further. I would be very interested to listen. Also on the subject on containment. Critisism saying we (or Danish goverment) has not done enough, with ideas what we can do, are always wellcome.

Oh, Just noticed.

http://www.vennebillede.dk - http://www.vennebillede.dk

Is back up with their proper content.

Its in Danish. Click "see Billeder" to see pictures. "See Billeder" means view pictures.

Nothing terribly exciting, if it was not for some hackers who could not tolerate this content.

Btw, A Danish swimming club also got hacked and had their content replaced by similar content as above, a week or so ago. I bet they where surprised. They where amuzed enough to report the matter to the police.

Let me also take this opportunity to condem an Italian minister wearing tea-skirt with one of the drawings. As such he represent un-democratic forces, that we do not tolerate.