Discovery Times had an interesting show on Saudi women.  It will be shown again several times on Feb 7th.

http://times.discovery.com/tvlistings/episode.jsp?episode=0&cpi=110414&gid=0&channel=DTC - http://times.discovery.com/tvlistings/episode.jsp?episode=0& amp;cpi=110414&gid=0&channel=DTC

Well, the reporter was a woman from Pakistan.  She and her all female film crew toured Saudi Arabia talking to women and men about the Woman's movement in Saudi.  They were provided with a chaperone, but it was very interesting the things that happened.

While filming on one street the Moral Police showed up and said the all woman crew was attracting too much attention.  Even though they had a government chaperone, they were going to shut them down.

They showed clips of a Saudi sitcom that I wouldn't mind watching.  In one scene, the women who are home alone are frightened by an intruder.  They throw on their abayas and call the police.  They are standing veiled on the sidewalk and the policemen start to enter the home to look for the intruder and they ask the ladies where their father is.  They say he is not home.  The policeman apologizes and tells them he cannot enter the home unless their male relative is home and leaves them.   In another scene, an unmarried woman is under the care of her VERY elderly father who sees every man as a threat.  So he hits any man who mistakenly walks to close with his cane.

She talked to educated women, common women, tribal women.  She talked to short lived political candidates, female journalists and reformers.

She talked to a member of the Saudi government, TV producers, male journalists and a member of the moral police.

She went to Starbucks and had to sit in a segregated area with her crew, yet she had to purchase her coffee from a strange man.

She was only able to eat from one of the 5 restaurants in her hotel or order room service.

But, it wasn't all negative.

She talked with a female architect about the improvements for educated women. 

She talked with a Journalist for the Arab News who was able to see changes in her work place.

And she talked to a few women in a factory, which a few years ago would have never happened.  They expressed hope and faith that their daughters would have more opportunities for education and employment.

She also met several powerful men who were supportive of women having a more active role in Saudi's future.

My husband was rivoted and he's only shown a passing interest in such things. 

Bismillah,

Thank you for the post, Angela!  I also don't get cable, and I appreciate the description!

The strangest thing I found was that she found the most ardent critics of the Women's movement to be other women.

About the right to vote, one YOUNG educated woman pointed out that the western women had to wait for their turn.

Women in one market called the crew Immoral for filming around men, and other women felt that they were better off with the restrictions on them.  They were more protected.

As a western woman, this is hard for me to understand this mentality, but I guess I can understand the fear having lived in a lot more liberal areas than I do now.

Its a fine line to walk between western values of freedom and equality and keeping out the liberalism and moral decay.  I see the struggles here in Utah as Mormon girls must chose between living a gospel life and joining their non mormon friend's fashion and lifestyle choices.  Where a member of my Church refused to play that "Brokeback Mountain" movie and was publically criticized because of his closemindedness. 

However, I did not agree with the man that said women belong only in the home simple because they are women.  Khadija was a business owner and no good muslim would ever question her virtue because she worked outside her and the Prophets home.

Bismillah,

Jenni, maybe you are right, generally.    I will contribute a small, personal item.  I had a dear friend who was Saudi and rich, and she was one of the most humble, kind-hearted women I have ever met.  Also another in the same category from the Emirates.  Not only was this second lady all of those things, but she was the epitomization of Patience.

Salam,

I would also like to add my perspective on saudi society and its women.

While many existing laws in that country are not truly Islamic shariah laws, I can say that kingdom has been undergoing tremendous change in the last couple of years. My brother who works there as computer engineer tells me about those changes. Conditions of Saudi women, particulary from job market point of view are also changing drastically and getting only better by the grace of Allah. People, in general,  are happy there, more happy than we see elsewhere. For example, they rarely have cases of depression as we see so many here in the West. May be, because they achieve their "spiritual appetite" by frequently visiting Mecca and Medina more than us. Allah knows best.

 Allah has really blessed the land as Prophet Abraham ( peace and blessings of Allah be on him ) had prayed to Allah:

And ( remember ) when Ibrahim ( Abraham ) said, " My Lord, make this city ( Makkah ) a place of security and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He ( Allah ) answered: "As for him who disbelieves, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the torment of the Fire, and worst indeed is that destination!"

Qur'an: 2: 126


It apears to me that the society as a whole is moving towards betterment. Changes do not happen over night. They take time. Western democracies have taken hundreds of years to flourish, so we can also expect the same for them. Perhaps they will change at a faster rate due to volatile situation in the Middle East. Before 60s, they were so poor, that some Nawabs ( for example, Muslim Nizam of Hyderabad, India ) used to send money to them for support plus they used to mainly derive their earnings from annual pilgrimage. That was their "financially bottom" position in economic terms. Then Allah blessed them with oil. They went suddently from bottom to top of economic cycle. They wasted lots of resources, and may be wasting even now. But, as I said, they are now moving towards normalization.

The good point is that the better Saudi society moves in the right direction ( as it is doing now ), the better it would be for Islam as its leadership is the Custodian of two holy mosques, Mecca and Medina. It would also be better for non-Muslims who sincerely want to learn about Islam, the way of life.

May Allah bless them to achieve what is truly islamic, and may Allah also bless us with the wisdom of Islam.

Peace

firewall3,

Better here would mean "better from within".

You have made your point well. Outside interference in such cases and in fact, in many situations becomes counter productive. ( Newton's law-action / reaction ).

Peace

firewall3 wrote: and i've read some Saudi women writers, on ArabNews there's Lubna Hassan (or Hussein, sorry!), she can be funny as well as opiniated. one thing i notice, and this is only my opinion, is that while maybe saudi women ask for some changes, but they certainly don't like it if outsiders barge in as if they're damsels in distress to be rescued. they can certainly do it better on their own.

Lubna was one of the women interviewed in this show.  She seems to be a very intelligent and wonderful woman.  This show was focused on Saudi women.  That included the duel roles as women of faith and women who are being supressed by CULTURE, not religion.  I was suprised at the number of men in the show who were supportive of women having more freedoms of education and employment, while still observing modesty. 

The Saudi women interviewed just want to have the freedoms that Allah gave them.  To choose their husbands, to have property not be it, to be their own person. 

They talked about the 50 girls killed when the Religious police wouldn't let them out of a burning building because they were not veiled.  That the women in Saudi don't want to turn their back on their religion, but they want to be safe.  That kind of isolation and oppression is not safety. 

Salam Jenni,

I agree with you. But, the change has to come from within. They don't want to import democracy from elsewhere as "big brother" wanted to liberate women in Afghanistan, liberate iraqis from Saddam, and now may be wanting to liberate women in Iran and elsewhere.  And media works with the "big brother" hand in hand.

 I hope you are getting my point.

Peace

I get your point PM.  And I agree with it.  Bush got a wake up call in Palestine the past few weeks.  Democracy is great, but now Hamas is in charge.  I think it would be a moral and political crime to not recognize Hamas.  The people voted and that's what they want.

I feel that the men and women of the Middle East need to take their own destinies in their hands when it comes to Democracy and social reform.  A western Christian society cannot set up a working democracy for a culture and society that operates by different values.

I am heartened by the changes that are being made in Saudi.  The condition of the women there were why as a 18 year old girl, I thought Islam was evil.  Now I see that its a Saudi thing, not an Islam thing. 

Women in this country had to struggle for many years to get their equality and we still do not have it.  So, I know its going to be a long road for the Saudi women. 

I hope and pray my country stays out of it.

Saudi Arabia: Religious Police Role in School Fire Criticized

(New York, March 15, 2002) -- Saudi authorities should conduct an independent, thorough, and transparent investigation of the March 11 fire at a girls' public intermediate school in Mecca that claimed the lives of at least fourteen students, Human Rights Watch said today. The tragedy has focused attention on the role of the religious police as well as the state agency responsible for the education of girls and women in the kingdom

Women and girls may have died unnecessarily because of extreme interpretations of the Islamic dress code. State authorities with direct and indirect responsibility for this tragedy must be held accountable Hanny Megally   Executive Director of the Middle East and North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/03/15/saudia3801_txt.htm - Printer Friendly Version Related Material http://hrw.org/press/2002/03/state030402.htm - U.S. State Department Rights Reports Critique Press Release, March 4, 2002 http://hrw.org/press/2002/02/saudi020502.htm - Saudi Arabia: New Evidence Of Torture Press Release, February 5, 2002 http://hrw.org/act/subscribe-mlists/subscribe.htm - Free Email Newsletter http://hrw.org/donations/ - Contribute to Human Rights Watch

Eyewitnesses, including civil defense officers, reported that several members of the Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (mutawwa'in, in Arabic) interfered with rescue efforts because the fleeing students were not wearing the obligatory public attire (long black cloaks and head coverings) for Saudi girls and women. The mutawwa'in, a law-enforcement agency that has sought to ensure the application of the kingdom's strict gender segregation and dress code for women, has drawn criticism for abusive practices including harassment, physical abuse, and arbitrary arrest.  
"Women and girls may have died unnecessarily because of extreme interpretations of the Islamic dress code," said Hanny Megally, Executive Director of the Middle East and North Africa division of Human Rights Watch. "State authorities with direct and indirect responsibility for this tragedy must be held accountable."  
 
There were 835 students and fifty-five women teachers in Intermediate School No. 31 when the blaze started at about 8:00 in the morning, according to Saudi press reports. Saudi newspapers suggested that the school, located in a rented building, was overcrowded, and may have lacked proper safety infrastructure and equipment, such as fire stairs and alarms.  
 
The government's investigation should also examine unsafe conditions at the school, which is administered by the General Presidency for Girls' Education (GPGE), Human Rights Watch added.  
 
Yesterday's edition of Arab News (Jeddah) cited a report prepared by Mecca's Civil Defense Department about the rescue effort at the school. The report noted that mutawwa'in were at the school's main gate and, "intentionally obstructed the efforts to evacuate the girls. This resulted in the increased number of casualties." The religious police reportedly tried to block the entry of Civil Defense officers into the building. "We told them that the situation was dangerous and it was not the time to discuss religious issues, but they refused and started shouting at us," Arab News quoted Civil Defense officers as saying.  
 
"Whenever the girls got out through the main gate, these people forced them to return via another. Instead of extending a helping hand for the rescue work, they were using their hands to beat us," Civil Defense officers were quoted as saying. The officers also said they saw three people beating girls who had evacuated the school without proper dress. A Saudi journalist told Human Rights Watch that the mutawwa'in at the scene also turned away parents and other residents who came to assist.  
 
The tragedy has prompted Saudi journalists to call for greater openness on the part of the GPGE in response to inquiries from the media for information about its policies and practices. All aspects of state-financed education for girls in Saudi Arabia, including the renting of buildings for schools, is under the authority of the GPGE, an autonomous government agency long controlled by conservative clerics. "A free flow of information would. . . help the press to prepare an investigative report on other schools in the Kingdom where conditions might also endanger the lives of students and teachers," Deputy Editor-in-Chief Jamal A. Khashoggi wrote in yesterday's Arab News.  
 
He urged that the GPGE provide information about fire safety in its schools for girls, including the number of fire extinguishers, the frequency of fire drills, as well as details about the contracts for the thousands of rented school premises in the kingdom, including provisions for installation of emergency exits and fire alarms.  
 
The kingdom's intermediate public schools, which are segregated by gender, provide three years of education for children between the ages of twelve and fifteen, following a six-year program of elementary education.  
 
Saudi Arabia is a state party to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and the U.N. Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination against Women.  
 
Megally added that in the midst of this tragedy it was encouraging to see relatively open discussion of need for investigation in the traditionally very quiescent Saudi press.  
 

Bismillah,

I have had Saudi acquaintences complain to me about the morality police and their uneven, unfair, misapplied power over the people.  They should be prosecuted for mudering those girls, not just chastised in the non-Saudi press.

Firewall3, You know very well that there are Malaysians who disagree with the implementation of the Shariah as interpretted by the leadership there.  You can give us your point of view, and we are glad to know it, but unless you are going to present the opposition's point of view too, then we deserve to hear that from someone.

Assalamu Alaikum:

One of my best friends is from Saudi Arabia. We have known each other for almost 30 years. There are many things about the country that she loves, but many things that are seriously wrong. From her perspective, the majority of regular Saudi Citizens are pretty terrified of the Religious Police. Even the Saudi Police will not try to stop them if they are harassing someone.

Many of the Saudi men want women to drive, vote, etc... That is why there have been spontaneous demonstrations within the Kingdom from time to time, by men, women, or men and women. Even when the demonstrators are just women, they still get their husbands' permission before demonstrating, (kinda ironic note), because they know they will be arrested and their husbands will be held responsible. It is not the government who doesn't want to give women these rights so much as the religious leaders who have so much power.

I also saw the show that Angela is referring to. It was interesting, but what I found the most interesting is when the documentarian was speaking to one of the most powerful religious leaders in Saudi, who actually controls alot of what happens there, and she asked him why women were not allowed certain rights and he really didn't have an Islamic answer, he just kept saying something like: that's just the role of women... I'm sorry, it's been a while so I don't remember the exact words. But that was his answer, basically just because...

This is interesting, and has links to other articles about Saudi women...

Saudis debate ban on women drivers

Friday 10 June 2005, 9:37 Makka Time, 6:37 GMT   < id=DateDisp_updateDate = name=DateDisp:updateDate> <>

Saudi Arabia is the only country that prohibits women drivers

Related: Saudi women to get first taste of polls  Tools:   Email Article   Print Article   Send Your Feedback

A Saudi man's call to lift a decades-old ban against women driving - the only prohibition of its kind in the world - has been met with death threats and opposition.

Mohammed al-Zulfa's knew his proposal last month to Saudi Arabia's appointed advisory council, of which he is a member, would stir controversy. Even so, he was taken aback by the reaction.

Some people said he should be booted off the all-male Shura Council, which has the power to change old laws and draft new ones. Another made death threats against him and his family.

The step would be almost revolutionary for the kingdom's conservative and segregated Muslim society.

"It's as if I am calling for women to take their clothes off on the street," he told Reuters. "I was only asking a normal question, about a normal issue."

Conservative Saudis say that allowing women to drive would expose them to strange men, and encourage young people to date - which would be anathema to the traditional practice of arranged, or at least closely supervised, marriage.

Those in favour of lifting the ban say the accepted practice of hiring foreign drivers to get around it is even less compatible with Islamic social norms. It also places a heavy burden on Saudi families who cannot afford such a luxury.

Zulfa says if the 150-member council does not vote on his proposal, it would be the first time it does not follow its own procedures.

The laws have gone to an internal committee and when they return for a vote, he will find out if it can be included.

"I am still hoping and waiting. I think it's the right place and time for this matter ... to be discussed and I hope my colleagues will be brave enough not to resist," he said.

Regardless of the outcome, the issue he raised is being debated more openly than ever before in newspapers, by important officials and the public.

Social, not religious

A top official and a senior cleric have made significant public comments on whether allowing women to drive is an act that breaks faith with Islam.

Interior Minister Prince Naif characterised the ban as a social rather than religious issue, which in theory means that if society wanted to see it lifted, there would be no obstacle.

Saudi women often have to wait for their drivers to pick them up

The catch is whether Saudi society - which follows an austere doctrine of Islam - really does.

Shaikh Abdullah ibn Munee, a member of the Council of Senior Ulema - Saudi Arabia's highest religious body - lent some support to Naif by saying scholars had not discussed the issue, but that it was not religiously forbidden for women to drive.

"We never said it was haram (sinful) for women to drive. We do not say it is haram, but we say that it is for the good of our daughters not to drive," the Arab News quoted him as saying.

Such comments may have encouraged a member of a 1990 women's driving protest that shocked the kingdom to again speak out.

Fawziah al-Bakr, a 37-year-old university teacher spent a night in jail alongside 47 other women for taking part in the protest drive 15 years ago.

She said lifting the ban was a matter of conditioning people in a society where demonstrations are virtually unheard of and questioning religious tenets unthinkable.

"People had to get used to the idea of education for girls; they can get used to the idea of women driving. It is of course not the most important issue, but it is an important expression of freedom, mobility and access for women," she said.

Local newspapers have been filled with debate and editorials on the issue. One showed a photograph of a Saudi woman driving her car in the desert. A piece in Arab News newspaper carried the headline: "Let Them Be at the Helm."

Expensive drivers

Many among the country's liberal minority hope the time could be right for Saudi authorities to lift the ban, which they believe is in the interests of the country's economy.

"It should be obvious to us all today that the future growth and prosperity of our country depends largely on women and their equal role in society," said oil consultant Hassan Yassin.

"We can ignore it and delay it all we want, but we cannot stop this from happening. With courage and confidence we should grab the initiative and take those steps which are in the interest of our country and economy," he said.

Saudi women, who support the cause, say the government should give them the option, whether society approves or not, in the same way that the late King Faisal imposed education for girls on an unwilling public in 1960.

"I think ... the government should take the initiative. If people don't want to do it (drive), it's up to them. But this is getting silly; it's giving Saudi Arabia a bad image. I feel sad about this, it's humiliating," Bakr said.

Bismillah,

Ma'ShahAllah, Firewall.  What lovely, heartfelt sentiments.

firewall,

No harm.  You are defending your people.  I was not upset by anything you said.  And....to make you feel better.  I'm Mormon....so you're good to go on the not hurting a muslim. 

the documentary on discovery, does anyone know if it's going to be re-broadcasted? could we request another broadcast on the regular cable?

liyala wrote: the documentary on discovery, does anyone know if it's going to be re-broadcasted? could we request another broadcast on the regular cable?

They show it every so often. The next time I see it scheduled I post the times. I think you can order any of their programs on DVD or video. I can find out. They actually show a lot of interesting programs about the Middle East and Islam.

The Discovery Channel and its affiliates often let you purchase programs and you can search for listing times on their website.

http://dsc.discovery.com/ - http://dsc.discovery.com/

The Name of the Show is Women in the Holy Kingdom.