9:112 [It is a triumph of] those who turn [unto God] in repentance [whenever they have sinned], and who worship and praise [Him], and go on and on [seeking His goodly acceptance], and bow down [before Him] and prostrate themselves in adoration, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and keep to the bounds set by God. And give thou [O Prophet] the glad tiding [of God's promise] to all believers.

9:5 And so, when the sacred months are over  , slay those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God wherever you may come upon them,  and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place! Yet if they repent, and take to prayer, and render the purifying dues, let them go their way: for, behold, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

8:39 And fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone.  And if they desist-behold, God sees all that they do;

8:65 O Prophet! Inspire the believers to conquer all fear of death when fighting, [so that,] if there be twenty of you who are patient in adversity, they might overcome two hundred; and [that,] if there be one hundred of you, they might overcome one thousand of those who are bent on denying the truth, because they are people who cannot grasp it.

8:7 And, lo, God gave you the promise that one of the two [enemy] hosts would fall to you: and you would have liked to seize the less powerful one, whereas it was God's will to prove the truth to be true in accordance with His words, and to wipe out the last remnant of those who denied the truth

8:12 Lo! Thy Sustainer inspired the angels [to convey this His message to the believers]: "I am with you !" [And He commanded the angels:] "And, give firmness unto those who have attained to faith [with these words from Me]: `I shall cast terror into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth; strike, then, their necks, [O believers,] and strike off every one of their finger-tips!"

I found these using the Islamicity Quran Search.  But, you must understand that Sura 8, the Spoils of War or the Al-Anfal is also a narration of events that took place in the Prophets lifetime.  I am a Christian, and I have found the western media likes to take Ayats (verses) out of context of their greater Surah (chapter).  My suggestion Steve is to get yourself a Pickthall's Koran or another english translation and read it for yourself.  There are plenty of websites that offer this as well.  The one below has multiple translations of the same verse, that way you can see the differences depending on the linguist translating it.  It helped me out.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

Your welcome Steve.  I was not raised in a traditional setting.  My mother's family is Russian Orthodox Catholic, my father's family is Methodist.  I was raised with varying view [oints to start with and it eventually led to me finding my own path. 

In the Quran, Old Testament and New Testament, one must always look at the Greater context of the verses we are quoting. 

Al-Anfal was revealed at Medina.  And the Muslims here can correct me on this, but it was probably revealed while he was fighting the pagans in Mecca who were trying to destroy him and his followers.  These passages were meant to comfort and encourage the members of the revealed truth so they would know Allah would not abandon them in their trials.  It was not giving them a license to kill indiscriminantly. 

There is a verse and I'm not sure which one it is that says to kill a human is to have killed all of humanity.  Hopefully one of the faithful Muslims here can post the actual ayat.

Bismillah, (In the name of Allah, God)

Yo, Angela!  You are really special!  Thanks for this great answer.  I mean if someone else posted this, that would be nice, but you as a non-Muslim posting this is truly an act that Allah, The Most Loving and Forgiving, will bless.

(I don't know if that's Quran or Hadith about humanity...)

But even back during these times of war, the rules of war didn't compare to those of the Bible or today's modern Geneva convention.  The Islaamic rules of war then and now are much more concerned with the protection of innocent lives, and certainly doesn't blame sin done by one on their next generation down to have them punished for things grandpa did.

Salam Steve and Welcome to IC,

The Qur�an ayat which Angela mentioned is as follows:

5:32 Because of this did We ordain unto the children of Israel that if anyone slays a human being-unless it be [in punishment] for murder or for spreading corruption on earth-it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind. And, indeed, there came unto them.  Our apostles with all evidence of the truth: yet, behold, notwithstanding all this, many of them go on committing all manner of excesses on earth.

There are three other ayats which state that it is wrong to kill any human being without just cause.  They are:

6:151 Say: "Come, let me convey unto you what God has [really] forbidden to you: "Do not ascribe divinity, in any way, to aught beside Him; and [do not offend against but, rather,] do good unto your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty - [for] it is We who shall provide sustenance for you as well as for them; and do not commit any shameful deeds, be they open or secret; and do not take any human being�s life-[the life] which God has declared to be sacred -otherwise than in [the pursuit of] justice: this has He enjoined upon you so that you might use your reason;

17:33 And do not take any human being�s life -[the life] which God has willed to be, sacred-otherwise than in [the pursuit of] justice. Hence, if anyone has been slain wrongfully, We have empowered the defender of his rights [to exact a just retribution]; but even so, let him not exceed the bounds of equity in [retributive] killing. [And as for him who has been slain wrongfully -] behold, he is indeed succored [by God]!

25:68 and who never invoke any [imaginary] deity side by side with God, and do not take any human being�s life - [the life] which God has willed to be sacred - otherwise than in [the pursuit of] justice, and do not commit adultery. And [know that] he who commits aught thereof shall [not only] meet with a full requital

No Muslim can give just cause as whatever he/she thinks is just cause.  It has to be the just cause set for by Allah.  Furthermore, Allah clearly states in the following ayat that no human being should be held accountable for another human being�s wrong action, nor should any human being be made to bear the burden for another human being.  This means that it is wrong for anyone to kill an innocent person for what some other person has done.

6:164 Say: "Am I, then, to seek a sustainer other than God, when He is the Sustainer of all things?" And whatever [wrong] any human being commits rests upon himself alone; and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another's burden. And, in time, unto your Sustainer you all must return: and then He will make you [truly] understand all that on which you were wont to differ.

I hope this information is helpful.  By the way, I�m an American Muslim.  What I mean is that I was born and raise in the US�of Scottish and Native American descent...I was not raise Muslim�but I reverted to Islam in 2005.  ALHAMDULILLAH! (THANKS BE TO GOD)  If someone would have told me a year ago I would become Muslim, I would have called them a liar.  Little did I know what Allah had in store for me.  ALLAHU AKBAR!  (GOD IS GREAT)

Just in case you have not seen the video about Texans turning Muslim, I am including the link ( http://xrl.us/jug3 - ) .  Watch it; it will really give you a good look at why some Americans are choosing to follow Allah through Islam.  By the way, I don�t live in Texas�well, not since 1990 anyway. 

I do hope you stick around IC and learn more about Islam.  That way, INSHALLAH (IF GOD IS WILLING) you can help educate Americans who have been fed lies about Islam with the truth.  That�s not an invitation or push to become Muslim�not to say it wouldn�t be a wonderful blessing if you did take Shahadah (Islamic creed)�but I don�t want you think I�m pushing Islam on you.  Islam is not a faith of compulsion.  I�m simply glad, ALHAMDULILLAH, when any non-Muslim wants to know the truth regarding Islam.  JAZAK ALLAH KHAIR (MAY ALLAH BLESS YOU) you for your desire to learn the truth about Islam.

Angela JAZAK ALLAH KHAIR for your love of showing the truth about Islam although you are a sister from another Holy Book.

PAZ

Sister Khadija

I knew you'd be the one to find them, Sister Khadija. 

Dear brother Steve!

I indeed am greatly obliged to you that you opted to come here to clarify and listen to the Muslim prospective rather than to form a pre-conceived idea from the western media as to what Islam stands for.

I would try to explain the verses mentioned by you but I would certainly not agree to this statement of yours: �I think it's also true that many Muslims probably don't understand that there are a lot of American citizens who disagree vehemently with our government's policies and its agenda��

Dear brother most of the Muslims know that what the common American stands for and whether they agree to their foreign policy or not. We not only know this but are also aware of the fact that common Americans are so helpless that they can�t even do anything about themselves what to talk of promoting the true image of Muslims.

The media and the corporate sector including the banks have such a firm control on the American policies and opinion making that everyone is helpless. This elite rule the America and the world unchallenged. (Sounding like conspiracy theory? To find out do read the following books: They Dare to Speak, Silent no more, Deliberate deceptions, written by Paul Findly an ex American congressman. Rouge State by William Blum, Plan of Attack by Bob Woodward, The Ghost Wars by Steve Coll, What Price Israel, The Zionist Connection, by Alfred Lilienthal an ex-American state department official). Some portions of these books are also available on internet.   

Now coming to your quotes:

These quotes are indeed from Quran. But let me ask you a question, suppose you are marching in a battle field and suddenly some enemy soldiers ambush you, mean while you start shouting for your fellow soldiers, �hey, there in the bushes kill them fire on them�.� And I record your voice to tell others, you see Steve was killing the people on streets, he has joined a killer gang see for yourself here is his recorded voice, and I play the tape recorded.

Would you consider it as just??

Same is the case here. The Chapter which mostly you quote (Sura-9) was revealed when there was a peace treaty between the Muslims of Medina and the pagans of Mecca. The truce was unilaterally broken by the pagans and they attacked the tribe which had allied with the Muslims so these verses were revealed. (Although this will also apply to those who will break the treaty in present times and in future but not to all without distinction):

�1. (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

2. So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

3. And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

4. Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are cautious (of their duty).

5. So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(Sorry the translation which you have given is incomplete and convey altogether different meanings which says:  Qur�an 9:5 �Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.� May I ask whose translation is this?)

6. And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then escort him to a place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know. (I would ask who will give such an amnesty to an enemy that escort him to a safe place?)

Are you sure that you have quoted the right verse?? Because verse 112 of Ch-9 says: �They who turn (to Allah), who serve (Him), who praise (Him), who fast, who bow down, who prostrate themselves, who enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil, and who keep the limits of Allah; and give good news to the believers� and Ch-112 has just 4 verses. Qur�an 9:112 �The Believers fight in Allah�s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.� This is not from where you have quoted.

This verse is also quoted out of context: Qur�an 8:39 �So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).� See these in context Chapter 8:

�34. And why it be so that Allah should not chastise them while they hinder (people) from going to the Sacred Mosque (Kabba) and they (themselves) do not deserve to be guardians of it; its guardians are only those who guard (against evil), but most of them do not know.

35. And their (non-believers) prayer before the House is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands; taste then the chastisement, for your disbelief.

36. Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell.

37. So that Allah might separate the impure from the pure, and congregate the impure (people) with the others (impure), and pile them up together, then cast them into hell; these are the people who are absolute losers.

38. Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, their past (bad) deeds will be forgiven; but if they don�t return, then what had happened to the ancients has been already been set (as an example for them).

39. And fight with them until there is no more (fitna) persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do�.

The word FITNA is used for a chaotic rule or system or a state of lawlessness or a tyrannical system or suppression or persecution or even for a system where all this exist.

The next set of verses (Qur�an 8:65 �O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding�) was revealed before the Battle of BADR the first major combat between the pagans of Arabia and Muslims. The Muslims statistics were as follow:

ITEMS               MUSLIMS                                    PAGANS
Men                    313                                     1000

Horses                2                                        200

Camels                70                                   700

The 313 were left when a hypocrite Abdullah bin Obe left by saying that I know there will be no war and he departed along with his 300 companions. So the demoralization factor was obvious. Allah therefore boasted their morale by these verses and verse 65 was particularly for the mental state of Muslims at that time who suggested that we should now retreat as there is no comparison of forces:

60. And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.

61. And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

62. And if they intend to deceive you-- then surely Allah is sufficient for you; He it is Who strengthened you with His help and with the other believers.

63. And incited unity among their hearts; had you spent all that is in the earth, you could not have united their hearts, but Allah united them; surely He is Mighty, Wise.

64. O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and (for) such believers who follow you.

65. O Prophet! urge the believers to fight; if there are twenty patient believers among you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.

After the war, once Muslims won even though the figure was troubling 20:200 and 100:1000 so they said to Prophet that although we won but the ratio should be increased to reduce the burden and raise the morale in battle field. So Allah reduced the burden:

66. For the present Allah has made light your burden, and He knows that there is weakness in you; so if there are a hundred patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand they shall overcome two thousand by Allah's permission, and Allah is with the patient.

This is the incomplete verse, Qur�an 8:7 �Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: �Wipe the infidels out to the last.�� In this verse Allah is reminding the believers that before the Battle of Badr they were disputing that whether to attack the caravan of the Mecca�s pagans to give a logistical blow or to straight away interdict their marching column of 1000. Some Muslims were inclined for the caravan.

On the other hand the leader of the pagans Abu-Jahal had announced in whole of Arabia that this day would be the day of decision (Yom ul Furqan) that who is on truth. So Allah will was to show it to everyone that who is on falsehood and He had indicated to fight the marching column. The verses 1-19 were revealed at that time:

5. Even as your Lord caused you to go forth from your house with the truth, though a party of the believers were surely averse;

6. They disputed with you about the truth after it had become clear, (and they went forth) as if they were being driven to death while they saw them (pagans).

7. And when Allah promised you one of the two parties that it shall be yours and you loved that the one which was not armed should he yours and Allah desired to manifest the truth of what was true by His words and to cut off the root of the unbelievers.

8. That He may manifest the truth of what was true and show the falsehood of what was false, though the guilty unbelievers disliked it.

9. When you sought aid from your Lord, so He answered you: I will assist you with a thousand of the angels following one another.

10. And Allah only gave it as a good news and that your hearts might be at ease thereby; and victory is only from Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

11. When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby. (Muslims were on sandy ground while pagans were on firm soil. So once rain befell slush was on the pagan�s side and firmness on Muslim�s side).

I don�t know who told you this translation of the verse 8. This is mere propaganda:

Qur�an 8:12 �Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: �I am with you. Give firmness to the Believers. I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.�

Hope this clarifies some of your doubts???

Shams Zaman

Pakistan   [email protected]

Shams Zaman wrote: Dear brother Steve! I indeed am greatly obliged to you that you opted to come here to clarify and listen to the Muslim prospective rather than to form a pre-conceived idea from the western media as to what Islam stands for.

Shams,

Thank you for your scholarly and eloquent response. I certainly know better than to form a preconceived opinion based on propaganda from the western media. I am a longtime lay student  and critic of our corporate media system, and I have seen for many years the lies and disinformation spread by these media whores. (Yes, they are whores!) Lies not only about Islam and the culture of the Middle East, but lies about many other cultures, including Central America, with which I was intimately involved in the 1980's in opposing both Reagan and Bush I's fascist, illegal wars and atrocities in that region.

I would try to explain the verses mentioned by you but I would certainly not agree to this statement of yours: �I think it's also true that many Muslims probably don't understand that there are a lot of American citizens who disagree vehemently with our government's policies and its agenda��

Yes, I admit that even though I am keenly aware of the media and cultural bias in our country, even I cannot claim to have an accurate picture of how Muslims in general feel toward the average American citizen. That is why, in part, I came here, to get a sense of how rational Muslims, people of conscience like you, feel about us who dwell here in the belly of the beast.

Dear brother most of the Muslims know that what the common American stands for and whether they agree to their foreign policy or not. We not only know this but are also aware of the fact that common Americans are so helpless that they can�t even do anything about themselves what to talk of promoting the true image of Muslims.

Well, I guess that makes me an uncommon American (of which I am very proud... that would make me not an "Ugly American"... a great classic book to read, by the way, for historical perspective on the dark underbelly of American influence in the world).

Not all of us are helpless, though. Against overwhelming odds, many of us are fighting to bring light and truth onto this horrible battlefield, a field of carnage and atrocities that is being perpetuated  by our "leaders" (misleaders).

This is why I have launched my new blog, http://americanliar.com - American Liar , in an attempt to hold up a mirror to the American people that will reflect back the awful truth of the corruption of our nation, and to reveal and amplify the few rays of hope that still shine in our land�rays of hope that emanate from millions of us who are struggling for truth, peace and justice.

The media and the corporate sector including the banks have such a firm control on the American policies and opinion making that everyone is helpless. This elite rule the America and the world unchallenged. (Sounding like conspiracy theory? To find out do read the following books: ...

When lies are made to appear as truth, defenders of the liars call those of us who would proclaim the truth loudly in the public square "conspiracy theorists." Yes, I am all too aware, and very frightened, at the extent and accelerating growth of the vast conspiracy that is taking our nation down the road to fascist Empire. (And make no mistake, this has been building for a very long time; BushCo did not start this headlong march toward fascism... they have certainly taken it to the next ominous level, though.)

We in this country are living in an unreal waking nightmare (though the majority remain asleep and unaware), where down is up, wrong is "right" and slavery is "freedom." I am so sick and disgusted by it all that I am as full of rage as those on the other side of this conflict who have become radicalized as a result of our misleaders' injustice. But I temper my rage with reason and moral balance, because I know that the path to a sustainable future for all of us on this planet depends on keeping the flame of our common brotherhood and sisterhood alive.

Now coming to your quotes: These quotes are indeed from Quran. But let me ask you a question, suppose you are marching in a battle field and suddenly some enemy soldiers ambush you, mean while you start shouting for your fellow soldiers, �hey, there in the bushes kill them fire on them�.� And I record your voice to tell others, you see Steve was killing the people on streets, he has joined a killer gang see for yourself here is his recorded voice, and I play the tape recorded. Would you consider it as just??

You are exactly right. No, I would not. And that is why I referenced similar historical references in the Bible's Old Testament, wherein the people are instructed as to how to deal with "enemies." These are indeed historical references that, as you and others here have said, need to be seen in proper context. Unfortunately, for most of us here in this nation that context is not provided by our social, religious, educational or media institutions. And thus most of us remain in blissful ignorance!

May I ask whose translation is this?)

For now, I'm going to leave this as a mystery. Suffice it to say that this originates from a dishonest propagandist. Later on, I'll reveal my source, so stay tuned... ;-)

This verse is also quoted out of context: Qur�an 8:39 �So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).� See these in context Chapter 8: ... The word FITNA is used for a chaotic rule or system or a state of lawlessness or a tyrannical system or suppression or persecution or even for a system where all this exist.

A perfect description of the current state of our nation! Thank you!

I don�t know who told you this translation of the verse 8. This is mere propaganda:   Qur�an 8:12 �Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: �I am with you. Give firmness to the Believers. I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.�

Yes, as Angela made clear, this is certainly some very dishonest propaganda�a gross distortion of the true words of The Prophet.

Hope this clarifies some of your doubts???

Shams, my doubts were not really about the true words of Muhammad; they were about the lies that I somehow instinctively smelled as I read the so-called "quotations."

Again, thank you for your words of clarification, and for posting the true words of The Prophet so that I can help shed some light here in my own country. If you don't mind, I'd like to quote some portions of this discussion on my blog; I think it would be very instructive for my fellow citizens to read, to help cast the light of truth upon this cesspool of lies that we're drowning in here in America.

Assalamu Alaikum! (Peace be upon you!)

... and upon us all.

Steve

(Steve:) "I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian gulag ..."

And, I would guess by both your style and cadence, with the King James Version close to hand.  Welcome to the discussions.

Serv     

Dear Steve!

Thankyou for a considerate reply. I just want to say what I think about some of your opinions:

I would not agree that you should call yourself as an American lair, you see it sounds somewhat disturbing. Why should be someone call himself as lair once he is not a one. Any how its all upto you but I felt it a little odd that's why I have mentioned it to you.

I would not agree that your society is an exact explaination of Fitna. I can say that if that be the case then probably some of our third world societies can be termed as FITNA. Because here power is everything with no justice at all. There are a lot of problem with the westren socities specially with regard to religion, God and parents but there are also some very good things which others need to learn. So I think its a kind of mixed society. However, personally I would never like to live in a westran society because I consider myself more prone to sin  in westren society than my own society.

There is a need that you try to make people understand that there is a sort of alliance between the radical Christians, Muslims and Jews. All want a conflict between their civilization and the other. Rather I would say it more clearly that the radicals Jews want a clash between Islam and the West and the other two have fallen victim to this ploy.

The media and the corporate is in the control of the Jews and they are pushing the USA in a ditch. What is the American intrest attached to Israel while Israel is the biggest aid reciving country while most of the oil comes from Gulf?? Why can't Us have a just policy towards Israel. A balanced policy?? Surely it has nothing to do with National Intrest but its those people who control the policy that they don't let USA to act justly.

Shams Zaman   

Bismillah,

And none of this is Academic to me because I have Muslim kids in America who are effected every day by the coercion of a bullyish society on them.  The worst thing is for people to not even know that they are part of a system that is oppressing people and that they themselves commit acts every day that augment that oppresion.

Shams, I feel the opposite about living in America.  I am used to the pressures here.  When I went to Jordan, the pressures were unbearable, and I had to leave. 

For my kids and I are stuck in between, and our lives can never be normal in that we don't fit in anywhere, but ISA we will fit in heaven nicely.

Assalamu Alaikum! (Peace be upon you!)

Hi Steve,

Hope this helps. May Allah guide you in your quest to seek the right path.

What Islam Really Says about Killing the Innocent

Taken from Introduction to The Book of Jihad and Expedition, by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui. Read the http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html - entire text .

Even in a declared war, certain rules must be followed:

The Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) has given clear instructions about the behaviour of the Muslim army. He observed:

"Set out for Jihad in the name of Allah and for the sake of Allah. Do not lay hands on the old verging on death, on women, children and babes. Do not steal anything from the booty and collect together all that falls to your lot in the battlefield and do good, for Allah loves the virtuous and the pious."

So great is the respect for humanly feelings in Islam that even the wanton destruction of enemy's crops or property is strictly forbidden. The righteous Caliphs followed closely the teachings of Allah and those of His Apostle in letter and spirit the celebrated address which the first Caliph Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) gave to his army while sending her on the expedition to the Syrian borders is permeated with the noble spirit with which the war in Islam is permitted. He said:

"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman. nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock. save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"

It is said that once at the time of conquest, a singing girl was brought to al-Muhajir b. Abu Umayya who had been publicly singing satirical poems about Hadrat Abu Bakr. Muhajir got her hand amputated. When the Caliph heard this news, he was shocked and wrote a letter to Muhajir in the following words:

"I have learnt that you laid hands on a woman who had hurled abuses on me, and, therefore, got her hand amputated. God has not sought vengeance even in the case of polytheism, which is a great crime. He has not permitted mutilation even with regard to manifest infidelity. Try to be considerate and sympathetic in your attitude towards others in future. Never mutilate, because it is a grave offence. God purified Islam and the Muslims from rashness and excessive wrath. You are well aware of the fact that those enemies fell into the hands of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) who had been recklessly abusing him; who had turned him out of his home; and who fought against him, but he never permitted their mutilation."

Another letter written by hadrat 'Umar the Second Caliph, which is addressed to Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, speaks eloquently of the noble spirit with which the Muslims have bear exhorted to take up arms:

"Always search your minds and hearts and stress upon your men the need of perfect integrity and sincerity in the cause of Allah. There should be no material end before them in laying down their lives. but they abould deem it a means whereby they can please their Lord and entitle them. selves to His favour: such a spirit of selflessness should be inculcated in the minds of those who unfortunately lack it. Be firm in the thick of the battle as Allah helps man according to the perseverance that he shows in the cause of His faith and he would be rewarded in accordance with the spirit of sacrifice which he displays for the sake of the Lord. Be careful that those who have been entrusted to your care receive no harm at your hands and are never deprived of any of their legitimate rights."

A Special Note:

PROHIBITION OF KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN WAR

Book 019, Number 4319 Sahih Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He disapproved of the killing of women and children.

Book 019, Number 4320:

It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.

http://www.muhajabah.com/reallysays.htm - http://www.muhajabah.com/reallysays.htm

fredifreeloader:

The first and the foremost basic right is the right to live and respect human life. The Holy Quran lays down:

Whosoever kills a human being without (any reason like) man slaughter, or corruption on earth, it is as though he had killed all mankind ... (5:32)

As far as the question of taking life in retaliation for murder or the question of punishment for spreading corruption on this earth is concerned, it can be decided only by a proper and competent court of law. If there is any war with any nation or country, it can be decided only by a properly established government. In any case, no human being has any right by himself to take human life in retaliation or for causing mischief on this earth. Therefore it is incumbent on every human being that under no circumstances should he be guilty of taking a human life. If anyone has murdered a human being, it is as if he has slain the entire human race. These instructions have been repeated in the Holy Quran in another place saying:

Do not kill a soul which Allah has made sacred except through the due process of law ... (6:151)

 

 

Bismillah,

Steve, thank you for your dedicated explanation of fascism and the control of the rich and famous over the poor and unknown.  What a corporation will do to get ahead!

 steve - i do not need elucidations as to the general gameplan of the united states and their puppets such as tony bliar in the world (im an avid reader of "new internationalist" after all), nor do i require history lessons re crusades, inquisitions and european expansionism in the americas.  although how the latter can be mentioned without reference to bloody muslim imperialism in the middle east, north africa, spain, the balkans and india i dont know.

the point is that the crusades etc were a perversion, as you say, of christianity.  the new testament (the rule book so to speak for christians) does not envisage or warrant killing anyone, let alone setting up christian armies, militia, christian states, or fighting wars in the name of christ.  this is in marked contrast to islam, which promotes fighting and killing (for whatever reason)

now you also refer to a perversion of islam.  kindly tell me what this is exactly, where we can see an example of it,  and why you think its a perversion

now you say that "no islamist state is bent on global economic empire".  how strange.  islam is bent on global empire, (does this make muslims "a very dangerous bunch" as well?)  its the whole point of islam. and it will be, should it ever happen, economic, as the boast of muslims everywhere is that their religion covers all aspects of life (except lesbianism, apparently).  muslims refer to this empire as the "caliphate".  non-muslims will have to pay the jizya tax, (a kind of glorified protection racket) and "feel themselves subdued"

now steve if you ever catch me giving out propaganda rather than facts about islam, i hope youll let me know about it

your quotation from luke 6: 42 is most inappropriate, unless you identify with the west in all its ways and deeds.  i dont.  and i really dont think that a man like james baldwin would criticise his country because he loves it without criticising others for the same reason

Brother Fredi said:

now you say that "no islamist state is bent on global economic empire".  how strange.  islam is bent on global empire, (does this make muslims "a very dangerous bunch" as well?)  its the whole point of islam. and it will be, should it ever happen, economic, as the boast of muslims everywhere is that their religion covers all aspects of life (except lesbianism, apparently).  muslims refer to this empire as the "caliphate".  non-muslims will have to pay the jizya tax, (a kind of glorified protection racket) and "feel themselves subdued"

Dear brother you have all got it wrong!

The first time the Muslim army attacked the Christiandom or the Roman Empire was in the life of Prophet Muhammad. It happened that way: Near a place Mauta, the newly converted tribe of Arabia was attacked by the local tribe which was falling under the jurisdiction of Roman Empire. So Prophet sent a messanger demanding to return the belongings and hand over the culprits but both were refused. And rather he informed the Roman empire that Muslims are coming to attack us with a huge army. On this the Roman ruler sent an Army of 100,000 soldiers. Prophet Muhammad (not aware of the huge army) sent 3000 troops to teach a lesson to that Roman tribe.

Once the Battle of Mauta took place Muslims had to retreat, with heavy losses. After that Prophet Muhammed sent the message of Islam to the Romans or to face the Muslims. But he died before he could despatch the Army and the Army was later despatched by the First Caliph Abu-Bakar.

The CALIPHATE has nothing to do with the Non-Muslim world. It is a concept that all Muslim states should have one leader with Quran and Sunnah with its constitution. Non-Muslims are cahrged with a tax know as JAZIA, on the same basis like all governments collect the tax from their citizens. However they are given an option to leave the calipahte if they don't want to pay tax. Similarly, all Muslims living in an Islamic state are bound to pay tax at the same rate of JAZIA, known as ZAKAT to the government. They can also leave the state if they are unwilling to pay.

All governments collect tax why are you people so allergic to Jazia?? or the tax of Muslim Government??

Zakat and Jazia only differ with respect to the reward in the hereafter so that Muslims should not use the Jazia for Muslim cause (building Mosques, schools etc) but it can only be spent on the welfare of the minorities.

Shams Zaman

so - pauline, you like a bit of jew-bashing as well??  "the chapter of destruction" in malaysia has started because of jews??  that is very very sad indeed, that you should say this, in fact its racist.  no im not jewish.  now your dear father told you that it was a jew who invented the story that islam was a violent religion?  what was this jews name please? -----//////actually people arrive at their conclusions about islam by reading the quran and the hadith, and by closely observing the actions of muslims in the world, not by listening to stories by jews or anyone else.

now you wonder why 1.5 billion people would embrace this religion if it was violent - simply because most of them are born into it, and know nothing else.  all they know about the holy faith of christ, for instance, is lies.

you said "my country promotes harmony society and freedom in embracing your choices of religion" ---- well try telling that to ms lina joy -----read her story here:

http://www.compassdirect.org/en/newslongen.php?idelement=3997 - http://www.compassdirect.org/en/newslongen.php?idelement=399 7

dont forget to click "read more" to get the full story.  lina is malay, she was muslim, and then she received the Lord Jesus as her saviour.  note that article 11 of the constitution guarantees malaysian citizens the right to change their religion, but article 3 declares islam to be the official religion.  this means that malays cannot change their religion from islam unless the sharia court allows them to , which it never does.  it means that although lina is a christian and belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ, she will legally have to follow the laws of islam, and have "islam" stamped on her id.  the only concession the muslim authorities have given her is the right to change her name, as far as they are concerned she is still a muslim.

there is more information on this here:

http://www.enwikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Malaysia - http://www.enwikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Malaysia

note the ban on malay and indonesian language bibles, the restrictions on church building and evangelism, with fines and even imprisonment for preaching the holy gospel to muslims.  ---/////if they are so sure that they are so right, then why are they so afraid of others preaching another religion?

but im sure youll be just fine in malaysia, pauline, as long as you do what the muslims want

(actually the second link does not always work - i dont know why - check out malaysia/religion/wikipedia)

pauline35 wrote: Congratulations! You have just thrown the pie at your own face, being not just the most biase but certainly awarded yourself as the most discriminative preacher of religion. Malaysia is a multi-cultural and a multi-racial country. Certainly, the Law can not please everyone especially the traitor. In the world, the traitor could not find a place that can pleases them forever. Or in a crowd, it is natural to have one black sheep. This is just the natural law of effect because astrologically, there are godly, humanly and demonly character in human and as for you, you have the demonly because nothing in this world is good for you. Nothing out of your mouth is good about anyone accept yourself lah.(Malaysian accent) You are right that most Malaysian are born Muslim especially the Malays. Unfortunately, you were wrong because of your Ms. Lina story. Was it the only one? Or are there, perhaps thousand of same story like Lina happen in Malaysia. Well! To be realistically, the government could not change the law just for one who had differences from the rest. You are one person who only reads from the website and media. Wouldn't it be more realistic and wiser that you learn from your experience instead? BTW, that woman was also found to be diagnosed with some psychology problems. Now, where is she? If she is normal, she would go all her way to fight for her freedom. Why isn't she did that? Because she was not well. BTW, you know for the fact that Jew invented the story about hating Islam and I did mention it was ages and now only you ask for name. I suggest you visit my late Father's grave and ask him yourself. Islam promotes peace and that is the fact. The only disturbing religion in Malaysia is the Christian Evangelist. That is guaranteed. The next time I encounter any of them, I will certainly bring them to justice. This is enough. What about yourself? Are you someone who fight to live? Or someone who hate Islam or anti-Islam? The world is never been enough for a person perceives this way. No solution and no ending but keep fighting. Your fighting spirit is good but it will be better if you put it in good use through some practice of logical senses.

first of all i am not interested in your astrological expertise.  so are you saying that the only problem with the story i posted was that there was only one story?  ----one is enough to destroy your bragging boast that in malaysia people are allowed to "embrace the religions of their choice"  - she has embraced christianity, yes, but according to the law, she will still have to live as a muslim.  what good is your precious peace, if people are treated in this disgusting, inhumane way? - in my country we tell the government what religion we are, not the other way around

so the woman has psychological problems?  and just where did you learn this?  from the website? or from the media, which you state "only writes for money"?  or are you so "wise" that you found this out from "experience"?  do you know this woman? you have not even been able to substantiate your claim.  why not?  (my links may not always work, but at least i make an effort)  did you make the story up yourself?  ---- actually if lina does have problems it wouldnt surprise me, when you think about how much this evil muslim regime has put her through (poor girl).  btw a persons health should not affect their freedom in this matter

im not even going to comment further on the your jew story - it deserves nothing but contempt

if youre being harrassed by christian evangelists, all you have to do is say no thanks and if they persist, remind them that the Lord Jesus would not harrass people.  if they persist further, then by all means tell them you will take the matter up with the authorities.  thats what i would do anyway

pauline35 wrote: Media writes for money and you know that. Reading from the website is like watching the Kingdom of Heaven. Remember what you said. All these are relevant. What goes around, what comes around? I am more concern on your health, my dear. The wise learns to not to get too worked out for a petty reason. Are you the wisest? BTW, thanks for your matchmaking web add as below:- http://www.enwikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Malaysia All I get is erotica and match make yourself with Jews single and Christian single...etc....great job, Fredi the loser.

well pauline - im sooooo veeeery sooooorry to burden you with all that erotica and jew/christian singles stuff (but there was also sodoku - you could have gone for that).  try this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Malaysia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_ Malaysia

go to the "conversion from islam" section.  note the insurmountable difficulties in converting from islam to another religion.  note also that the opposition party is calling for the death penalty for this.  now is that not violent?  also please give me the name of just one person who has succeeded in converting legally from islam to another religion under the present regime in malaysia (well i mean ive given you the name of one person who hasnt managed it, surely its the least you can manage)

go to the "loss of the right to marry" section.  its lina joy again!  the babe just wont go away.  but they have denied her the right to legally register her marriage.  how sick is that

going back to 1987, look at the "torture by police" section and read about joshua jamaluddin, a muslim who received the Lord as Saviour.  that meant more to him than all the torture given by muslims

and hav a nice day

Fredifreeloader,

Even if your point about Malaysia is true, how does that make Islam a violent religion?  Have you ever considered that is might simply be the Malaysian way of applying Islam that is the problem and not Islam itself?  In order to prove your point, you need to show us that ALL countries that claim to be Islamic have these same laws.  The truth of the matter is that there exist no true Muslim counties at this time in history.  All countries that claim Islam as their predominate faith only implement Sharia as part of their law system and the Sharia they implement is far from being the true Sharia of Islam.  So, it is truly an injustice you do by claiming their flaws and faults on Islam.

Although the issue which exists in Malaysia regarding the blocking of believers (Muslims) from converting to another faith, 1.) there is nothing in the Qur�an or Sunnah which states a person is forced to be a believer or to remain a believer, there is no compulsion in Islam, hence, this appears to be a law of the Malaysian government and not a law of Islam, and 2.) there are some Christian denominations which believe that once you enter their faith you are a member of that faith unless they excommunicate you; that is, even if you leave their faith, they believe you are still part of that faith and they judge you according to that faith.  I have a friend who has been a Muslim for 20 years but she is still on the registry of the LDS and I am still on the registry of the Catholic Church.  The difference appears to be that in the former case (Malaysia) is enforced by a government body whereas the latter is not.  Is this the fault of Islam?  I think not and for you to assume or to say so is simply ignorance on your part.

You have made comments about Islam�s population as being mainly composed of Muslims born into Muslim families but this is far from true.  If it were the case, then the majority of Muslim would be Arabic; however, Islam is currently composed of no more than 20% Arabs.  There are an estimated 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today.  This means that although there are approximately 300 million Arab Muslims, there are 1 billion 200 million Muslims who are not of the Arabic ethnic group.  So, how can you expect others to believe what you said about Muslims being born Muslim to be true?  The truth of the matter is that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.  Despite (actually, more like as a result of) the 9/11 bombing in the US, Islam is becoming a faith which many devout Christians are converting to.  The reason for this is due to larger numbers of American who became sincerely interested in learning about Islam as a result of the bombings and propoganda by the media there after; hence, instead of listening to speculations and propaganda, they purchased copies of the Holy Qur�an so they could see for themselves what the truth about Islam is.  If you would like to see a testimonial to this fact, please watch the video �Turning Muslim in Texas.�  Just click the link below and it will take you there:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9184353144432289069&q=Turning+Muslim+in+Texas - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9184353144432289069 &q=Turning+Muslim+in+Texas http://video.google.com/videoplay?ocid=-uslim+in+Texas -

Also, in one of your earlier posts you accused Pauline of being racist for asking if a person was Jewish.  Judaism is not a race.  This is a fallacy that is as old as Christianity.  Just as Judaism does not constitute a race, neither does Islam or Christianity.  The closest you could have gotten to calling Judaism other than a religion would have been to call it an ethnic group because even if all Jews were of the same bloodline, that bloodline would be no other than Caucasian.  However, even trying to refer to Judaism as an ethnic group doesn�t hold today because not all current day Jews are a part of the same bloodline or culture as the Israelites which Moses lead out of Egypt.  It simply goes to show us that it is simply a fallacy to equate any religion with a particular race or ethnic group even if the religion is contained with a particular ethnic group or race.  So, stop calling people racist for wanting to know if a person is Jewish or of any other religious group.  This is an Islamic forum and therefore knowing the religious background of those who make comments about Islam is relevant to the discussion.  Just as some Christians have in the past been persecuted by Jews (not all but some), so have some Muslims.  It is no secret that there are some (probably many) Jews who do not want to see the prophecies of the Torah fulfilled.  And just as the Jews denied the validity Christianity, so do the Jews and Christians deny the validity of Islam.  On the other hand, Muslims do not deny the validity of either Judaism of Christianity.  Muslims merely hold that the Torah and Gospel have been tampered with by men.  However, Muslims still consider both Jews and Christians as being followers of Divine Revelation and worshipers of the same God; i.e., Allah, even if they believe that Christians have gone astray in believing in the trinity; that is, becoming polythesists and not mere monothesist as Allah commands us to be. 

The bottom line is this; Allah will reveal the truth in the end because He is AL-HAQQ (The Truth, The Real).  That is, the TRUTH does not depend on the life or the opinion of any human being regardless of whether that human is Jewish, Christian or Muslim.  The TRUTH is independent of all things; the TRUTH is ALLAH, AL-HAQQ. 

ASHUKRU-LILLAHI RABBIL-ALAMEEN WALA-HAWLA WALA QUWATA ILLA BILLAH

Sister Khadija

khadija - well you should read "the punishment of the apostate according to islamic law" by abul ala mauwdudi, also the following hadith:

bukhari vol9 no.37 - "......by allah, allahs messenger never killed anyone except..........a man who fought against allah and his messenger, and deserted islam and became an apostate..."

bukhari vol9 no.57 - ".......i would have killed him according to the statement of allahs messenger 'whoever changed his religion, then kill him'."

bukhari vol9 no.58 - "....muadh asked, 'who is this man?'  abu musa said 'he was a jew who became a muslim then reverted back to judaism'  then abu musa requested muadh to sit down but muadh said 'i will not sit down till he has been killed.  this is the judgment of allah and his messenger' and repeated it thrice.  then abu musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed.  abu musa added 'then we discussed the night prayers...'"

bukhari vol9 no.64 - "narrated ali...............no doubt i heard allahs messenger saying 'during the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats and will go out from their religion as an arrow goes out of the game.  so wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the day of judgment'"

also bukhari vol9 no. 271, which tells the same story as no.58

yes ive already seen this video you posted.  i wonder if those folks in texas are having the same problems as these people in the uk - see here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1470584,00.html - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1470584,00.html

now if im out of order in any way by referring to paulines comments as "racist" then fair enough, but remember she said it was a jew who "started the story about islam being a violent religion" and that the present day (unspecified) problems in malaysia, which she referred to as the "chapter of destruction", are being caused by jews in the country.  now if its not racism what do you call it?  ethnicism? judeophobia?  i dont know.  anyway pauline seems nice enough, and ive no wish to offend her, i just find these statements strange

david its rather disturbing to see you dismiss textual evidence out of hand.  if the texts i quoted have been "selectively picked out", then its because they are there to be picked out. you will also note that they do not concern war, or rules of warfare.  they concern the murder of those who convert from islam

judas was never an apostle.  he did not receive the commandment to "go into all the world and preach the gospel", nor was he present on the day of pentecost to be baptised in the holy ghost.  he was a thief, a traitor, and never a believer.  he always addressed the Lord Jesus as "rabbi", never as "Lord"

again, examples of violence from christians past or present is not appropriate.  we are not defending the misguided actions of christians real or fake, we are defending christianity.  and no, jimmy carter operating a nuclear submarine is not an example of "christian violence".  it is an example of united states defence or united states warmongering if you prefer.  jimmy carter may be a christian, but it was presumably as president of the us that they allowed him to think that he was actually in control of a nuclear submarine.

there is no justification in the new testament, no commandment to fight.  indeed theres a prohibition on all that.  whereas the quran says that fighting "is prescribed" for muslims.-quran 2: 216  fighting is violence.  so is killing. 

you say muhammad was a man of his time.  but muslims ive spoken to claim he is a man for all time, and that his edicts are eternal and cannot be changed - except the ones he changed himself, under the guise of abrogation, such as "let there be no compulsion in religion"

david - i already have all the hadith online (usc muslim students association website) as well as the quran in several translations.  working ones way through such turgid material is very hard work.  as for "juvenile arguments" well were talking about peoples lives here, and their most basic freedoms.  i dont know how you can produce all these cop-outs in the face of such a vital issue.  if you think youve such a nice, balanced understanding of islam then answer this - who may muslims kill?  who should they kill?  who do they kill?  and why?

so my juvenile arguments "are derived from others who feel they can only justify their religion by demeaning others" - would Abul Ala Maududi also come into that category?  -- i think youll find he knew rather more about islam than you, (or anyone else on this site) and he was certainly a real person.  sad to say, your comments on islam border on the psychophantic (is that the right spelling?)  just who has islam been a blessing to? --certainly not to christians and other non-muslims living in muslim countries, or 50/50 countries.  look at whats going on in nigeria, pakistan, sudan, egypt, indonesia etc.  look at what yasser arafat did to bethlehem

you know youve not actually answered anything ive said, merely questioned my saying it

Fredifreeloader,

What you fail to see is that the killing of an apostate is only for those Muslims who turn their back on Islam and they fight against Islam.  In the early days of Islam, some Muslim men had little/weak faith and would flee and go to the other side to fight against Islam if they felt Islam was way out numbered.  Apostate means traitor not simply one who no longer believes.  Tell me of any country that would treat an apostate (a traitor) during wartimes any less than to have them court marshaled if they are caught?  And tell me which country would not actively seek out apostates.  The ayat and ahadith you make reference to are about war.  It is not fair for you to take those out of context. 

There is no law in Islam which states that a believer who becomes a non-believer should be killed simply because they stop believing.  In fact, in the Qur�an it states:

How shall Allah guide those who reject faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust. (3:86)

Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah of His angels and of all mankind. (3:87)

In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened nor respite be their (lot). (3:88)

Except for those that repent (even) after that and make amends: for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful. (3:89)

But those who reject faith after they accepted it and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray. (3:90)

As to those who reject faith and die rejecting never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous and they will find no helpers. (3:91)

I have included all of the ayat regarding those who reject faith after they believed (this is for the general population and not regarding times of war where a person becomes a traitor/apostate) so that no one is tempted to take it out of context.  It clearly states that Allah is not pleased with these individuals and that there reward in the hereafter is a �penalty grievous�; however, it doesn�t state that they are to be killed in this life.  In fact, ayat 89 states �for those that repent (even) after that and make amends� which means that they have to remain alive in order for them to have the chance to repent.  At the end of that ayat, it states �for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.�  This means that even if someone does lose their faith (in cases other than becoming a traitor/apostate), Allah will forgive them if they return and repent. 

How does this constitute a violent religion?  Despite what others may think, Allah is Merciful.  All one has to do is to read past the prejudices he/she brings when they approach Islam.

With respect to your question about who Muslims may kill, here is your answer:

17:33 Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).

That is, Muslims can only kill someone if there is just cause to do so.  Such as:

 1.) To protect from tumult and religious oppression. (see Holy Qur�an 2:191; also   see 2:193 and not that the last sentence in the ayat is, �Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.�; also 2:217; 8:25; 8:39; 8:73)

2.) To punish someone for committing murder. (Even in cases of murder if the family of the slain person is forgiving, then it is not permitted to kill the person who committed the murder, see Holy Qur�an 2:178.)    

Who are Muslims forbidden to kill?

1.)  They cannot kill themselves; i.e., commit suicide or do other things which may lead to the own death such as smoking:

4:29 O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!

2.)  They cannot kill their own children.  It was (and to some extent still is in some part of the world) a common practice to kill unwanted children (in the overwhelming majority of the cases it was daughters; in fact, some buried their daughters alive, see Holy Qur�an 81:8) in the days before Allah sent the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) the people.

6:151 Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

17:31 kill not your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin.

60:12 O Prophet! When believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty to thee, that they will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood, and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter,- then do thou receive their fealty, and pray to Allah for the forgiveness (of their sins): for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

3.)  Anyone who has not committed an unjust act (i.e., murdered someone, or causing tumult in the land or oppression of faith.  (I�ve already shown this by it�s negation above.)

It is not true that Islam believe all others besides Muslims are �infidels.�  If one is to assert that the term �infidel� can be found in the Holy Qur�an, they cannot attach it to any other than to those who were pagans.  It is clearly stated in the Holy Qur�an that Christian and Jews are People of the Book.  In Sura 3, Al- Imran, there is much discussion about People of the Book (i.e., Muslims, Christians and Jews), no where does it say to kill them.  Allah merely warns against many of the problems which arose from Jews and Christians who went off His Straight Path, and command Muslims not to do the same thing.  In fact, at Sura 3, Al-Imran, Allah tells the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) call for the joining together the Jews and Christians in worshiping Allah:

Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah."

Did Allah command the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to kill them if they refused?  No!  In the last send of the above ayat, he said:

If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."

There is no command to kills them or hunt them down or to persecute them in any way simply based upon the fact that they rejected Allah�s call to unit them in worshiping Him.  Why?  Because there simply is no compulsion to adhere believe in Islam and just because a person refuses to accept Islam is not grounds to kill them.

Hopefully this will answer some of your questions Fredifreeloader.

Ashukru-lillahi Rabbil-Alameen wala- hawla  wala quwata illa billah

Sister Khadija

pauline - no religion that prescribes fighting for its adherents can be a peaceful religion

khadija - i will be offline for a few days, as im too busy, but will have more to say about the killing of converts from islam and why it happens

Also Fredie, although most of the Malaysia's constitutions are not completely Islamic, it does not mean the country is not governed by Muslims. It is still an Islamic country and from the Muslim point of view in Malaysia, they called for a global peace through Peace Forum to criminalise warring countries like United States, Iran etc because the UN has failed. This is also to prevent more war in the future as the faith of the true Muslim is PEACE.

Regarding your input on the killing of converts from Islam, it is individuality as it depends on your mentality to perceive what is being taught by the Iman. If you have a strong mentality, you will be able to define between wrong-doing and righteousness.

Let me share with you this experience, there is this a con-artist from Singapore, came to Malaysia finding new friends to form a cult using the teachings of Buddhism. Three of the precepts in Buddhism is no adultery, no gambling and no drinking. However, this man so-called ex-monk shacked up with a married woman. He also loves to gamble, spending more money buying lottery and drinks alcoholic beverages.

He expressed himself as a psychic who knows the future and the past. It was quite accurate when he mentioned about someone's past. When questions were raised about his teachings, he said "I must not answer your questions". Now, when he said this, it depends on individual to intrepret the meaning. To me, it's pure ***edited*** To his girlfriend, he has a reason for not telling the truth. YOU SEE, IT ALL DEPENDS ON INDIVIDUALITY. Not all can detect the wolf in the sheep's clothings.

I refer to what Sister Khadija had shared that the Apostates are these people who pretend to be one holy preacher like this "con-artist". Therefore, to prevent these apostates from leading the faithful believer into the wrong path, they deserve a righteous punishment. When human fear god, human will not become devilish. This is to contain the negative behaviour. The natural law of effect is that not all human fear god and that the demonly human will self-interpret god's teachings and gone astray without realizing the effect of their consequences. It is similar to the saying of one black sheep in a family.

***Sorry Sister Pauline but the use of profanity is not allowed even if it is disguised with astrics and you intentions good.  Next time try using a word like "nonsense" or "ignorance", I think that will get your point across."***

Your welcome Sister Pauline.  Jazak Allah Khair!