Dear brother

It is indeed encouraging that you want to know the Muslim perspective on the issue of 9 11. Most Muslim do not view the incident of 9 11 as an isolated incident rather an out come of hate and anger of over 40-50 years.

HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE. Muslims had a glorious past which came to an end some 500 years ago due to our own follies. Spain and Ottoman Empires became the Western colonies and Muslims started living in subjugation and foreign rule. They were happy, satisfied and some resistance in political form was offered but over all Muslims were deep asleep.

Muslims have a different perception of their religion. There are some areas where there has to be no compromise in any form and any shape. These are:

(1) Allah or God,   (2) The Prophets,  (3) The Quran  and  (4) The Holy places namely Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem.

In 1916 the Balfour Deceleration was passed and Israel came to existence in 1947. The Palestinians were persecuted and were evicted from their lands. Both British in particular and west not only supported this but played an important role in this whole drama. The protests in Muslim world got infuriated and protested but these protests were subdued by force. This led to a feeling of injustice and repression with respect to our religion and resulted in armed struggle at different place in the world (Libya, Algeria, Indo-Pakistan, Afghanistan and Arab lands). This had a profound effect on Muslims religious psychology who started to feel that this colonization must come to an end. The colonization soon ended due to World War-I and new states emerged after world war-II.

The west continued to rule the Muslim lands trough proxy, i.e. by appointing and supporting the tyrannical rulers and regimes which still exist in most places of Muslim countries.  

The miseries of Palestinians continued and West not only remained unconcerned to them but rather encouraged and supported Israel in carrying out all kinds of persecution and occupation. This gave a wake up call to Muslims. The Arab-Israel war of 1967 and 1973 gave Muslims the shock of their life when west openly supported Israel against the oil rich Arab despite of them being important to the West. The western citizens living in comfort and luxuries failed to heed the calls, protests and strikes in the Arab lands, so as to pursue their governments to adopt more balanced approach towards the problem.

This unjust behaviour of the west frustrated the Palestinian youth and some tried to gain the attention by hijacking planes, killing Israeli athletes at the Olympics etc which rather proved to be counter productive and media portrayed just one side of the story to depict Muslims as terrorists, extremist, brutal etc etc. The cat and mouse game went on for years.

Iran was an American state satellite with having over 25000 CIA and MOSSAD operatives. Due to Shah�s blind submission to US the nation turned against the government paving in the way for Theocracy i.e. Iranian Revolution. USA immediately brought Saddam in Iraq and armed him to fight Iran fearing the Islamic Revolution from spilling over to the neighbouring countries.

Richard Nixon�s book �Beyond Peace� would be very relevant here to mention in which he writes that, �The US should adopt a policy of isolation and containment towards both (Iran and Iraq). The objective should be to give both countries problems at home so that they cannot cause problems abroad.�

The Islamic fury against the west got a break as suddenly a new threat appeared in Afghanistan, �The Communist Threat� which was common to both west and Islam. Both entered into marriage of convenience to fight the Soviet Threat and the west resurrected the concept of JIHAD in the Muslim world which had been dead for more than 4 centuries. 

These Mujhaids or Jihadis were the heroes of Muslim world and the west. But just within two years some important things happened:

Israel destroyed the Iraqi nuclear reactor while retaining its own because in future Nuclear Iraq would pose a serious threat to the west and jeopardize the whole 50 year plan about the Gulf.

Saddam (the crony of west) attacked Kuwait and soon it became apparent that Americans had hinted that in case of any attack on Kuwait US will remain neutral.

Ethnic cleansing of Muslims started in Bosnia Herzegovina and Europeans along with US enjoyed the cold blooded massacre of Muslims for almost 5 years. It only stopped once Saudis, Pakistan, UAE and two more Muslims countries broke the arms embargo to supply the arms to Bosnians Muslims to protect themselves.

East Timor was immediately granted a status of an independent Christian state with just within 2 years of resistance after separation from Indonesia, while the problem in Muslim lands like Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya etc was ignored deliberately for decades.

In Algeria the Islamic party won the elections but with the help of France and United States the imposed regime not only barred the party to form the government but rather a genocide was orchestrated for over 10 years in which thousands and thousands were slaughtered.

Gulf war started and the government of Saddam Hussain was intentionally not deposed for having an excuse to control the world oil. The local shia population and uprising was as a result crushed by Saddam using brute force. But Saddam was not to be removed because his removal was not the part of the game plan and could have jeopardize the whole plan which was to be unveiled in the next 10 � 15 years.

After the war was over the Mujhaideens or the Jihadis demanded the foreign powers to leave, because the things were happening exactly what the Prophet had told the Muslims some over 1400 years ago. The most vocal voice was of the Osama bin Laden who was at that time the closest friend of the CIA.

Soon Osama became the unwanted man and the enemy of CIA/Saudi government so he had to leave the country. He organized his fellow men to wage the resistance against the occupying powers in the Gulf and used his old base, Afghanistan t wage this �Holy War�. This is how the political issues were painted in the religious colour.

The tensions between the west and Islam grew bitter and bitter, and both spared no opportunity to harm each other or each other interests. This was when 9 11 happened. In this regard following book will be important:

(1) Rouge State by William Blum.

(2) Ghost Wars by Steve Coll.

How Muslims view 9 11.  It is a generally believed by most Muslims and some Westerners that the 9 11 is the biggest orchestrated event of this century by CIA and MOSSAD to pursue their global policies around the globe. This was the same sort of operation planned by CIA in 1960�s in the Bay of Pigs/Guantanmo Bay named as Operation Northwood in (Cuba). The plan involved:

To train and deploy some 10000 exiled Cubans mercenaries in Bay of Pigs to start an armed resistance/attacking American base wearing the uniform of Cuban Army.

Blowing up American ships in and around Cuban waters.

Bombing the coast of Florida by the US Jets painted as Cuban air force.

But the plan failed in the initial stage as Castro killed or captured almost all the exiled Cuban mercenaries. So the next phase was immediately abandoned. The details can be found in the documents of Northwood first published in Australia by Jon Elliston �Psy War on Cuba: The De-classified History of US Anti-Castro Propaganda� ocean press 1999, and also �A Program of Covert Operation Against the Castro Regime� declassified CIA document dated 16 April 1961 (made publicly available in 2002).

Therefore most Muslims don�t buy the story that a handful of hijackers ARMED with fruit cutting knifes and nail cutters dodged the complete security system at the airports, Hijacked 4 planes, overpowered the pilots and passengers and banged them into the buildings (some of them in the prohibited airspace) while NSA and FAA was taking a nap. This sort of operation is not even possible in Bangladesh and Nepal what to talk of UNITED STATES.

There are some books published in Europe about 9 11:

(1) �The CIA and September 11� in which a former government minister of Research and Technology, Andreas Von Bulow, insinuates that the US and Israeli intelligence intelligence services blew up the World Trade Centre from the inside. The two Boeings, he claims, were flown in by remote control as a cover-up.

(2) "9 11 - A Big Lie" by Thierry Meyssan (translated in English).

(3) "Operation 9/11 - Angriff auf den Globus" by Gertiard Wisnewski (in German language).

(4) "Verschworungen Verschworungsth und die Geheimnisse des II.9." by Mathias Brokers bei Zweitausendeins. (in German language).

(4) "Pentagate" by Thierry Meyssan, translated as "The Pentagon Scandal" in Pakistan.

I am indeed not justifying the killing of some 3000 innocents on Sep 11, it was certainly an act of brutality which must be condemned by all. I am only presenting the genesis of the problem and that the facts presented by the US government are not at all true. May be we come to know that in 2030 once 9 11 files would be declassified.

The events of 9 11 are to be viewed in the light of the theories projected by the Western scholars. Like after the demise of Communism Mr. Francis Fukuyama presented the theory of "End of History" that by struggle through ages finally man has come to the end of the tunnel and we have devised a system which will last through the rest of the ages in shape of "Western Democracy".

This idea was refuted by Mr. Samuel P. Huntington, who claimed in �Clash of Civilizations and Re-making of the World Order� that we still have to face a confrontation amongst various civilizations especially Islam and Confucianism, which are inferior and incompatible to western civilization, will sooner or later join hands to confront the west. This theory was originally professed by the famous historian Arnold Toynbee, in his work �Study of History� but could not gain due attention due to the rise of communism.

This theory is now slowly taking the shape of reality due to a very well co-ordinated and planned course of action. This action involves:

(1)   Occasional statements from the Western leaders against Islam or about the superiority of Western values. (Like George Bush used the word crusades, Mr. Belescuoni said West has superior values and Islam is a religion of suppression, etc).

(2)   Media in west (FOX, ABC, SKY, MSNBC, BBC, WSJ, TIME WARNER, and the newspapers) which portrays Islam as a religion of terror.

(3)    Media in the Middle East like Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabia which portrays west as hostile to Islam.

(4)   Publications of books in the west hostile to Islam or giving wrong picture of Islam like of Irshad Manji �Trouble with Islam� , �Militant Islam Reaches America� by Danial Pipes, �Hatred�s Kingdom� by Dore Gold, �Why I am a Muslim� by Asma Gul Hasan etc.

(5)   Showing reports and publicising material which infuriate both Muslims and Westerners, like: Gruesome videos of western hostages in Iraq, pictures of Abu Ghraib prison, publishing cartoons of Prophet, airing video of British soldiers beating Iraqis, re-airing the picture from Abu Gharib prision etc etc. So let there be no break and we go on and on, on the collisionary course.

So there is lack of understanding and wisdom at the both ends and both Muslims and West has failed to realize that there is a third party pushing them towards the confrontation.

Muslim who realize all this are helpless as they are unable to control the extreme forces who see west, (as a whole) an enemy of Islam while on the other hand westerners are not ready to understand or accept the Muslim perspective and they view these ideas as conspiracy theory purported by the Muslims. More on 9 11 and the conspiracy against west and Islam can be found on the following web sites:

http://www.islamicparty.com/ - www.islamicparty.com (Islamic party of Britain founded by converted Muslims).

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/index.htm - www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/index.htm (Gives the preview of the design of Freemasons and secret societies aiming to establish a global rule).

http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/ - www.alfredlilienthal.com (An ex-official of US State department who himself is a Jew and strong critic of Zionism).

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ - www.ifamericansknew.org (Established by Americans aiming to protect the civil liberties and their values against the force which covertly rule America).

Shams Zaman  mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]

Pakistan.

yeah right shams zaman, your "perspective" is anything but historical, more like a re-writing of history, in true muslim fashion.  just to pick out a few points - you state that "spain and ottoman empires (did they have more than one?) became the western colonies"  ---- what an utter lie this is.  the truth is that the muslims invaded and conquered and colonised spain and the balkans and attempted to islamize them.  a clear example of muslim imperialism.  they got kicked out in the end, and the people they had brought into their dreadful bondage once again breathed free air.  they even got as far as the gates of vienna, but were (praise God almighty) repulsed, and europe was not brought into the satanic bondage of islamic dhimmitude. 

you also have the audacity to mention east timor, without mentioning that it was invaded by the indonesian muslim predators in 1975, who proceeded to slaughter 200 000 out of a total population of 600 000, before retiring in shame and ignominy in 1999.  incidentally the western collusion in this vile episode is well documented, even in a site such as wikipedia.  also the oppression and killing in indonesia, motivated by satan, goes on, with the muslims continuing to oppress the people of God, for which evil our God, the only true God, will bring them into judgment.

fredifreeloader wrote: yeah right shams zaman, your "perspective" is anything but historical, more like a re-writing of history, in true muslim fashion.  just to pick out a few points - you state that "spain and ottoman empires (did they have more than one?) became the western colonies"  ---- what an utter lie this is.  the truth is that the muslims invaded and conquered and colonised spain and the balkans and attempted to islamize them.  a clear example of muslim imperialism.  they got kicked out in the end, and the people they had brought into their dreadful bondage once again breathed free air.  they even got as far as the gates of vienna, but were (praise God almighty) repulsed, and europe was not brought into the satanic bondage of islamic dhimmitude.  you also have the audacity to mention east timor, without mentioning that it was invaded by the indonesian muslim predators in 1975, who proceeded to slaughter 200 000 out of a total population of 600 000, before retiring in shame and ignominy in 1999.  incidentally the western collusion in this vile episode is well documented, even in a site such as wikipedia.  also the oppression and killing in indonesia, motivated by satan, goes on, with the muslims continuing to oppress the people of God, for which evil our God, the only true God, will bring them into judgment.

You're twisted, dude.

I'll tell you what a non-Muslim American thinks: the US had it coming. We've been bullying the world with our overthrows of democratic governments from Iran to Chile and on and on. Fools like freddi get a kick out of lying their way through the world and making it look the the US is a great nation. It was founded on the genocide of the native americans and the enslavement of the africans. It's a scumpit full of ignorant jerks and its deserved far worse than 9/11.

pauline35 wrote: Hello Skygazer, Your eloquence will always put you in the limelight. Not only you are articulate but you surely did a lot of homework. A mature and realistic person indeed. I admire you qualities in terms of knowledge and high perspective.

Pauline, I know you were not intending to be funny.....but you made me laugh...

You can obviously recognize a rant but seem to have problems spotting a counter-rant.  :---)

ak_m_f wrote: pauline35 wrote: Hello Skygazer, Your eloquence will always put you in the limelight. Not only you are articulate but you surely did a lot of homework. A mature and realistic person indeed. I admire you qualities in terms of knowledge and high perspective. haha

OK ak_f_m, so you reckon Pauline indended it to be amusing. I'm not so sure, perhaps Pauline can enlighten us?  :--)

JWNew,

I think you have come to the wrong place.  All you will get here is anti-Western hate and pro-islamic sentiment.  There are very few here that believe both the West and the Islamic world contain both good and bad; neither side is perfect and mostly what you get here is name calling and finger pointing.  Think about the responses you have received so far.

Did anyone actually answer your questions?

ak_m_f wrote: liberty wrote: JWNew, Did anyone actually answer your questions? read the second his post was answered

You may want to re-read the question, it did not ask for conspiracy theories and your ranting and raving about the West.

pauline35 wrote: FREDIEFREELOADER WROTE : (incidentally as far as i know, islam is the only religion which allows slavery, which is still legally going on in muslim lands) I guess you did not try to understand about other's religion. Islam is unique and a peaceful religion. If you are refering to the 9/11, those who carried out the attacks were not Muslims although they claimed to be one. Remember that every human being is not prefect and psychologically, some of us are diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive behaviour. They, the Al-Qaeda are a group of sectarian. Meaning, they have gone above the Quran, ie self-interpretation. Besides, the politics between Iraq and States breed the terrorist effect. The attack was politically motivated. Why blame the religion for it's the politic that is the issue? Islam did not preach about slavery but submission to god. It is a philosophy.

no i was not talking about al quaida or 9/11, but you will have to justify your statement that they have gone over and above the quran.  but to return to what i was saying about slavery, consider the following:

sahih bukhari 1: 367 - where muhammads fighters were allowed to take slave girls from among the captives

sahih muslim book 10 no. 3901 - indicates muhammad had black slaves and traded in slavery

maliks muwatta book 21 nos 21, 13, 25

sahih bukhari vol2 book 15 no. 103 - where muhammad approves of the display of black slaves in the mosque

quran 23: 1-7 - sex with slaves is allowed

consider also the quran (the cow: 178) - "o ye who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered - the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female"

look at the commentary of jalalan (p 24)on this verse - "a freeman should be killed for another freeman but not for a slave, a female for a female, but a muslim (even if he is a slave) must not be killed for an infidel, even if that infidel is a freeman"

thus the life of a slave is not worth the same as the life of a freeman, and the life of a non-muslim is not worth the life of a muslim slave, even if that non-muslim is a freeman - oh my God what utter evil is this

Dear bro fredifreeloader, instead of selectively reading that too, out of context, would not help. You may like to read some comments already posted on the subject of slavery in Islam at the following link of the forum.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=691&KW=slavery - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=691& KW=slavery

Dear Brother Fredi!

You are not historically not correct again. Why Muslims went in Spain, and Rome perhaps read Prof Brenard Louis on the subject. The Spanish king had abducted the daughter of the governor of (now known as Jibralter) who asked Tariq Bin Ziad for help.

Tariq bin Ziad was later sacked for the reason also. The Jerusalem was given back to Christians once Salah-ud-din had captured it. What did the Christian Knight did?? He killed the sister of Salah-ud-din and banned the entry of Jews. So Salah-ud-din had to recapture the Rome to settle all this. Why don't you watch the latest movie on the subject: "Kingdom of Heaven" on the subject? It will help you to view waht had been done by the invaders there. HeraldLamb is another famous name in history you should read him as well.

There has been no invasion by Muslims in South East Asia, who told you that Muslims invaded the Timor islands??

Muhammad Bin Qassim came to invade India only once an Arab caravan was looted and their women were raped while Raja Dahir refused to offer any compensation. But just after few years he went back. There is no concept of forced conversions in Islam that is why Jews and Christians had lived peace fully in Spain while once Muslims were thrown out of Spain it was a spool of blood. Even your historians accept that.

Islam does not promote slavery. It gives solution to the problem of slavery. It was Islam who taught that slave has rights and whatever you like should also be bought for the slaves. The concept of slave was changed to the concept of servant in Islam. That is the reason for the broken promises or grave mistakes it is mandatory to free slaves.

So Islam recommends freeing of slave. The concept of making women as slave after war is not as you have understood it. All captured men and women are the property of the government which can distribute them amongst Muslims. The sex can't be forcefully and if the Mushrik (those who associate partners with God) can't find a husband then she is given in the custody of a specific person even for consetual sexual relation. The children thereof will ahve the right in property etc. If the lady converts to Islam she will be given the status of wife.

Shams Zaman

Pakistan.

shams - so the muslims offered their help to this guy who had his daughter abducted - and how? by invading and taking over the whole country for how long was it? - very strange way to get someones daughter back.  no the truth is the muslims saw their chance to expand and oppress and took it.  and oppression it surely was, not peace as you suggest, as can be seen how christians were treated under this tyranny, see kenneth baxter wolfs work - "christian martyrs in muslim spain"

now you are directing me to watch "kingdom of heaven" - why i dont know.  films for entertainment cannot be trusted as truth.  ive seen the film anyway, and it tells us nothing new about anything, certainly not the about the crusaders

yes the indonesians invaded east timor (timor-leste) and slaughtered 200 000 - see here

http://www.gov.east-timor.org/AboutTimorleste/history.htm - http://www.gov.east-timor.org/AboutTimorleste/history.htm

and here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor

the country had been a portuguese colony from 1596-1975, known as portuguese timor.  the timorese declared independence in 1975, and muslim indonesia invaded immediately (east timor is majority roman catholic).  why did they invade? - east timor had never been part of the state of indonesia.  was it because they were after the oil and gas resources of east timor?  or was it to stifle the life out of christianity in that land, as they are trying to do to christianity even now in their own country? or was it just sheer greed and lust for more power?  who knows?  in any event the massacres are well documented, and the "west" looked the other way while it happened

and then you repeat what evey muslim repeats to non-muslims - namely that in islam there is "no compulsion in religion"  ---but how false this is when we consider the message of muhammad to the omani people - he wrote this to them - "peace be upon the one who follows the right path! i call you to islam.  accept my call, and you shall be unharmed.  i am gods messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants.  if therefore you recognize islam, i shall bestow power upon you.  but if you refuse to accept islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp upon your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom"

this is on open display at sohar fort, sultanate of oman, and it proves the omanis were forced into islam

Dear Fredi!

Islam did abolished the slavery. Do you find any slaves around in Muslim countries??

But what to do with the prisoners of war?? To keep them under lock and key? There is no prison system in Islam, this is the solution offered by Islam to the POWs (only those held in the battle field).

So what about the sexual rights of the women who are held in the battle field?? And if there is any rape they can report it to the state, the Islamic state is not a type of state like the one exist in the Muslim countries these days.

Infact this is to prevent rape and corruption. Rape can take place other wise. So once a person is held responsible for a non-believer women he bloody well has to take care of her otherwise he would not be provided with the slave. This has to take place under a responsible government official on an agreement in presence of that man or women (slave).

There is not a single example of forced conversion in Islam. But in spain you can read the History.

I agree that the motives for the capture of spain were not purely for he help of the poor lady. That is the reason Tariq bin Ziad was sacked by the Caliph and imprisoned. He died in prison and some accounts say he was poisened while some say he died a natural death.

But the capture of Spain brough light of civilization and education for the Europe. Europe came out of the Dark ages due to the Spanniyards.

Shams Zaman 

hi shams - i did not know tariq bin zaid came to a sticky end in jail, courtesy of the caliph, i only know when they sailed over to spain, he had all the ships burned, indicating there was no way back, and that they were there for one reason only, to conquer and occupy and oppress, which they duly did. 

as for the "dark ages", they are only called that because of lack of documentary evidence of what actually they were like and what exactly went on then.  it does not mean that people were in total ignorance or anything

so- islam has abolished slavery? - you will need to provide textual evidence from the quran or the hadith before i will believe that.  i mean i know muslim countries have abolished it. (saudi arabia in 1962 and mauritania as late as 1980), but as you said, there are no "real" muslim states in the world today ---so evidence is required that islam itself has abolished it------///even the abolition of slavery in muslim countries i think is highly questionable, when one considers the plight of camel jockeys in the gulf - here:

http://www.camelraces..com/ - http://www.camelraces..com/

and here -

http://www.antislavery.org/homepage/resources/cameljockeysgallery/gallery.htm - http://www.antislavery.org/homepage/resources/cameljockeysga llery/gallery.htm

what are these poor kidnapped boys if not slaves!!

POWs should simply be released after the fighting - end of story. 

here is an interesting article from south africa:

http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles_ca/2004-4-TheScourgeofSlavery.htm - http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles_ca/2004-4-TheScou rgeofSlavery.htm

if you are saying that the message sent to the omani people by muhammad, as dictated to him by the angel gabriel (allegedly) is not an clear ultimatum or "forced conversion" to islam, then we are not talking the same language, and you will need to explain further what you mean by "compulsion in religion" and "forced conversions"

pauline35 wrote: I am a peace lover...dude. Thanks for your compliment. I don't remember quite clearly abt East Timorese but there is a hidden agenda on this one. It was not the Muslim who killed the 200,000 east-timorese. It was the Indonesian native that killed as instigated by a foreigner. Money buys the killing. Everyone lives near East Timorese knows this politic issues. It will be fair to check with any East Timorese inhabitant. BTW, I am a Chinese and a Catholic. (Consider I am still a Catholic)

Yo!, Pauline, if you're Catholic, why the hades did you go off on me about how Evil Christians were and how you were being Bullied to accept Jesus? 

And Fredi, how dare you take such a loveable and sweet character and use it for your name as you cause trouble with decent people. Red Skelton is rolling in his grave.

Oh, well, Evangelists are a bit.....off...to say the least.  I dislike the whole ilk.  Graham, Falwell, Baker...they are all evil if you ask me.  Give me money and you will be saved.  That's an evangelist. 

I just thought you were muslim for some reason.  LOL.    I'll read my posts closer from here on out. 

what's the muslim equivalent of evangelist?    OBL

W

Angela wrote: Oh, well, Evangelists are a bit.....off...to say the least.  I dislike the whole ilk.  Graham, Falwell, Baker...they are all evil if you ask me.  Give me money and you will be saved.  That's an evangelist.  I just thought you were muslim for some reason.  LOL.    I'll read my posts closer from here on out.

Salam/Peace

I think it's not wise to mock anybody. Giving food, medicine, knocking the door, giving speeches in parks or intersections, that's fine, that's their way to spread their believe. As long as they don't break the law. (However many peoples say that publick park, intersections are public domain that can not be used for specific religion activity). I think they do this method based on research that they have done. If this doesn't work, off course they will stop it without anybody asked them to stop.

fredifreeloader wrote: yes the indonesians invaded east timor (timor-leste) and slaughtered 200 000 - see here http://www.gov.east-timor.org/AboutTimorleste/history.htm - http://www.gov.east-timor.org/AboutTimorleste/history.htm and here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor the country had been a portuguese colony from 1596-1975, known as portuguese timor.  the timorese declared independence in 1975, and muslim indonesia invaded immediately (east timor is majority roman catholic).  why did they invade? - east timor had never been part of the state of indonesia.  was it because they were after the oil and gas resources of east timor?  or was it to stifle the life out of christianity in that land, as they are trying to do to christianity even now in their own country? or was it just sheer greed and lust for more power?  who knows?  in any event the massacres are well documented, and the "west" looked the other way while it happened

I think your quote that Indonesia took east timor because they are catholic or have oil is fully wrong. On that time there is no oil discovered yet. The correct answer is because the largest group in east timor when Portuguese left the land is communist party (fretilin). When Portuguese left the civil war broke. If the communist party won the civil war and controlled east timor, the US worried that it'll grow like Vietnam. Note, Indonesia, before 1965, PKI (Indonesian Communist Party) was the largest communist organization in Asia after China. On that time Indonesian relationship with china, Russia, Yugoslavia and other major communist country was very close. In early 1965 Indonesia even quit from the UN because they thought UN is controlled by imperialist and capitalist. They (PKI) failed to took over Indonesia on bloody cud-eta in sept 30th 1965, the Indonesian military led by Colonel Suharto (all top generals in the army killed by PKI) that backed by US government via CIA eventually control the country and took the government. Since then Indonesia controlled by military regime till 1998 when President Suharto resigned.
http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB52/ - http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB52/

Indonesia invaded East Timor on December 1975 just a day after US President Gerald  Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger met with Indonesian President, Suharto. So it's very clear that they visit Indonesia to give Suharto a "green light" to invade East Timor. At that time, Indonesia had military, economic and political support from countries such as UK, USA and Australia, for various reasons.

http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB62/ - http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB62/
http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB62/#doc4 - http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB62/#doc4

[December 12, 2001 Update: Recently declassified documents from the U.S. and available at by the George Washington University's National Security Archive project web site confirm that "[Former U.S. President Gerald] Ford and [former Secretary of State Henry] Kissinger Gave Green Light to Indonesia's Invasion of East Timor, 1975"]

However indonesia do many good things in east timor during its occupations for about 23 years (1976-1999) compare to Portuguese that stay there over 379 years (1596-1975). More about that click bellow: http://www.twf.org/News/Y1999/0922-Greed.html - http://www.twf.org/News/Y1999/0922-Greed.html

"or was it to stifle the life out of christianity in that land"

this statement is very absurd. Before imperialism era there is no christianity on that land or in Indonesia in general, if you read the history in the beginning the Europeans were accepted as trade partner by the local people on that time were muslim or Hinduism or Buddhism. But the Europeans cheat them and eventually occupied them, and on that era many local people were tortured, killed or if not thy treat them as slaves. There also monumental history if you visit indonesia (java) you will use it, 1000 km road it's called as Daendeles Road. Herman Willem Daendels was the governor general that representing Netherlands Govt in Indonesia that forced people to make the road from Anyer  (small town next to Jakarta, west part of java island) till Panarukan Eastern part of Java island, via jungle, hills, river, you can imagine there was no modern tool to take the stones and other material. The project took about 2 years and killed thousands peoples, workers that had not been feed or paid also peoples that refused to work. Even in 12 November 1808 he destroyed Banten Kingdom (small kingdom in java) because the King refused to send workers to support the project.  He didn't spent any pennies for labor.

Another barbaric even happen in 1948 when Captain Raymond Westerling killed 40 thousands peoples within few days, this happen in South Sulawesi (Celebes) Eastern part of Indonesia.

Daendeles, Westerling, Portuguese, Netherlands, UK, they are Christians, yet they did horrible things. But we can not say Christian teach that things.

More story about est timor we discussed it on:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=477&PN=2 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=477& PN=2

http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=5446873&pageid=r%20&mode=ALL&query=east+timor%20 - http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=5446873&pageid=r &mode=ALL&query=east+timor

semar - i do not know what the point of your post is.  you seem to think you are informing me of something by proving the collusion of the west, notably the united states, in the invasion of east timor by the indonesians, and the subsequent massacres - in fact i have already pointed this out myself

"i think your quote that indonesia took east timor because they are catholic and have oil is fully wrong" - it is not a quote, it is a question from me

similarly, my "absurd statement" - "or was it to stifle the life out of christianity in that land" is not a statement, but a question.

your point that there was no christianity in east timor or indonesia before imperialism is irrelevant - it is there now, and has been for hundreds of years.  one of the links you posted makes the claim that muslims and christians co-exist peacefully in indonesia.  this may be true for many, but not for all, as can be seen by the dreadful persecution endured by christians at muslim hands in that land

http://www.compassdirect.org/content/index.php?id=15 - http://www.compassdirect.org/content/index.php?id=15

use the search engine to find "indonesia"

are you labouring under the misapprehension that i am here to represent and defend the west?  such things as were perpetrated by the herman willem daendels of this world are indeed contrary to the mind and will of God as revealed in the new testament, as you correctly pointed out, but military conquest of other lands is very much part of islam, as can be seen by muhammads letter (supposedly inspired by the angel gabriel) to the omani people

pauline - what do you mean "another anti-islamic point of view"? - the fact is that christianity gives absolutely no reason to kill anyone, but islam gives plenty.  you only have to read the quran, the hadith and the books of sharia law to see that.  have you read any of them?  you also only have to consider what muhammad said and did.

while im sure you have many good points, pauline, you are undoubtedly one of the most biased persons i have come across in a long time. 

your statement "to be safe, look both side and not getting into trouble by looking at only one side"  is most enigmatic.  "safe" from whom?  who is going to get you into "trouble"?

pauline - kindly inform me where exactly in the new testament we are told to sacrifice animals to atone for sin, and where we are told to kill our children to prove our love for God

also i have never said that muslims kill christians in malaysia, although if someone provides evidence that they do, i will consider it, as i do everything else

your hatred for everything and everyone unislamic is becoming very obvious, sadly

fredifreeloader wrote: semar - i do not know what the point of your post is.  you seem to think you are informing me of something by proving the collusion of the west, notably the united states, in the invasion of east timor by the Indonesians, and the subsequent massacres - your point that there was no Christianity in east timor or Indonesia before imperialism is irrelevant - it is there now, and has been for hundreds of years.  one of the links you posted makes the claim that Muslims and Christians co-exist peacefully in Indonesia.  this may be true for many, but not for all, as can be seen by the dreadful persecution endured by Christians at Muslim hands in that land are you labouring under the misapprehension that i am here to represent and defend the west?  such things as were perpetrated by the herman willem daendels of this world are indeed contrary to the mind and will of God as revealed in the new testament, as you correctly pointed out,

My point is simple, you always always talk about killing by Muslims and Christian is holly free from any horrible things, Christian is so peaceful, so being Christian will be so peaceful . So I wanted to raised up that killing by Christian under colonialism,  holocaust etc, way much larger number than done by muslim.

fredifreeloader wrote:  "but military conquest of other lands is very much part of Islam, as can be seen by muhammads letter (supposedly inspired by the angel gabriel) to the omani people"

Christian spred into Africa, south and east Asia, south, Central, and Latin America and other places via colonialism. Nobody can't argue that colonialism is identical with cheating, slavery, murder, killing, forced, and of course military. But in contrast Islam reached south and east Asia, Africa peacefully no (less) bloody history, just by trading.

About "massacre" in east timor done by both side Fretilin and Indonesian army, but bias is always there. Fretilin also did many kidnapping. Many Teachers and that send by Indonesian government to reduce the illiteracy among the east tomoreese when Portuguese that over 85%, kidnapped by the Fretilin. Thats why the Xanana Gusmo, East Timor President, who was Fretilin leader never talked abut his old adventure. (By the way xanana is not indigeneous timorees, his father is portugeese and his mother is timorees). 

Regarding the number of massacre victims is a result from very rough  assumption: the population should be this number but only this number so they assumes killed by Indonesian army. They don't consider that many east timorees moved to other places in Indonesia, thousands east timorees students who studied in Indonesian Universities and never went back.

Yes many of them (the missing peoples) were killed during the occupation but not only by Indonesian army but Fretilin also contributed big chunk.

I believe you will protest if we assume that current population in Iraq is should be 22 million (census 1997), now only 21 million, than we say all killed by US troop. This is what happen with east timor case, thy assumed all missing peoples caused by Indonesiaon Army.

Anyway I still can not and will not say that Christianity is a cruel religion even though many of it's follower do those things. And I'll not say that Christianity is "religion by forced/gun" even though it's spreading into Asia, Africa, south central and Latin America mainly by colonialism who used gun to occupied those lands.

fredifreeloader wrote: also pauline, Islam teaches Muslims to kill in certain circumstances, of this there is no doubt.  look at the quran 2: 190, 191 - "and fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.  and kill them wherever you find them...." - no doubt Muslims will say this is justified killing, but it is killing.  the quran instructs Muslims to kill.  it is a killing religion.  the Lord Jesus never told anyone to kill for any reason - nor is it found anywhere in the new testament.  Christianity is a religion of peace, not war and killing, thanks be to God

The verses was revealed during the wartime, the option is either they kill you or you kill them. Basically like American general said to his troop during the war if kill Saddam's army wherever you find them.

But again there is reminder: do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
So in Islam is not allowed to kill an enemy, sick and so on if they don't have weapon. Saladin did this when Richard the Lion Hearts was sick.

By the way I think thread off to much. Please consider JWNew question, you (muslims) may have something to say to him,

JWNew wrote: Hey guys, i'm not sure where to put this, so I guess i'll put it in the most relevant place i think is in this forum... I am a student at school currently doing a project about the treatment of Islam since 9/11 on the media, and the effect it has had on individual lives of Muslims in Australia and America. I am trying to collect a variety of feelings/stories from individual muslims from Australia, and America. Please feel free to share your feelings about this issue. If you have any stories for example, it would really help out a lot... I am trying to understand from a western culture point of view, and i feel that posting on forums is a start. Please state if your an American-Muslim or Australian-Muslim in your posts, thanks a lot. Have you felt a greater sense of prejudice when you walk down the streets, was it different before 9/11? How Do you think the media is potraying Islam/Muslims? Things like that will help out a lot, thanks.

I my selves didn't have any special experiences, probably because I am not look like neither middle eastern nor south Asian. My wives who where scarves, she was a little bit scared to get out for weeks. Usually she walked my kids to the parks everyday, she stopped it for a while. And when she was out many peoples watch her from her head to toes. Like I mentioned in other post just recently, she went to a bread store, the store worker said to her "this is America, be American, don't where such thing".

One time in the stop sign a group of youngster stopped beside us and they yell to us (probably to my wives), with very dirty word your are sons of "f..b.."

Some of my friends have some incidents. Here one of the funny story, one time my friend (Turkish) went to the funeral that located in  quite remote area, he passed the old abandoned small airport (no longer active), there were many junk small airplanes there. Then he stopped by and took some pictures with his video camera, suddenly 3 policemen came to him  (he has no idea from where they appeared)and asked him many questions, asked for id and even asked him to give his camera and they screen what pictures that he has on his camera. Thanks God, eventually the polices let him go, but his wive so scarred. This was happened on the same day when somebody with middle Eastern look, detained more than a week due to taking pictures in Santa Monica peer (California), with allegation taking "unusual object".

The other story, on summer 2004 my friend (Pakistani) and his family went vacation to Bahama. When he returned back to US in Florida airport, he had to do about 6 hours interrogation, so he missed his continuation flights. He had to wait till the next day to continue his flight to home. Neither the airliner nor the homeland security (HLS) refused to reimburse the hotel due to the interrogation process.

He had to experience this thing even though he told them that he is a us citizens and had been working for a defense company for over 14 years, got the highest company security clearance. The funny thing was when the HLS guy found some saudi addresses and saudi phone numbers in his wallet, the HLS guy looked so sock. Actually those addresses are his friends that he met during his hajj trip a few years earlier. Even shocker when he found a peace of paper that has some supplication in Arabic. Because so sock the HLS guy asked him a few times where was that particular paper for a few times that in fact he hold it. They made copies for all all suffs in his wallet.

Anyway eventually he back home safely, but just because of his name and his looks he has troubles. He said that for him wa OK but for his young kids that experiencing this incident, they would record this incident and treatment deep on their hearts and their brain. It may damage their trust to the authority of their fairness.

You may want to contact CAIR or visit it's website that collected the incident and report it to fbi.

http://www.cairnet.org - www.cairnet.org

fredifreeloader wrote: the claim that muslims and christians co-exist peacefully in indonesia.  this may be true for many, but not for all, as can be seen by the dreadful persecution endured by christians at muslim hands in that land.

Some facts that listed on the site that you posted may be true but it doesn't show the whole pictures, only viewed from one side, it doesn't explain how and why it's happen. For intance  some christian community claimed the indonesian goverment has regulation that restrict the churches building. But in fact the recent research regarding the house of warship in Indonesia since 1977 to 2004 showed that during that period the number of churches grew about 153% (catholic) and 131% (protestan). And mosques only grew 64%.

I think the 11 September WTC crash can be partly attributed to this verse.

047.004
YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Trident wrote: I think the 11 September WTC crash can be partly attributed to this verse. 047.004 YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. This verse is clearly describing JIHAD! Yes ofcourse this verse is describing Jihad, but only when the battle is in order among armies and not civilians. Probably someone need to open their second eye as well to read it clearly before justifying the event under the pretext of Islam. Hmm!!

Oh yeah? Well lets see if that is really the truth. Let's look at the following Hadiths from Muslim.

Book 019, Number 4321:

Book 019, Number 4322:

Book 019, Number 4323:

ak_m_f wrote: Trident are you even muslim? I think you are posting out of context from some anti-Islamic website

It seems you are here to spread anti-Islam propaganda. See the link below.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3751&PN=1&TPN=29 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3751& ; ; ;PN=1&TPN=29

Moreover, if you have questions, sincerely ask them, and people here will help you. After that, it is your choice whether you take that or not. But, your choice of going into circles and posting "out of context" stuff will not be tolerated. ---Peacemaker

I am going to close this topic as the thread has gone off the topic. Please discuss interfaith issues in another thread such as "Is islam true?" etc.

Peace