As' Alaamu Alaikum

In the name of God, the infinitely good, the rmerciful

When we discuss the Oneness of God perhaps we should reflect on the wisdom of Tawhid as there is much to learn regarding the Oneness of God. When we discuss his 'oneness' we discuss the singular being in which all things exist from. We also include the principle attribute in which all things that come from depend on. More importantly we also talk about the being in which all life forms existing and non-existing or in potentia become "more or less" cognizant of.

But when we discuss the 'Oneness' of God we must understanad that there is some limitations to saying One. In saying "there is one God" is nothing more than saying there is One person in a room. It is basically an exclusionary term applied to a person or deity in this case. Of course God being the Almighty Creator is one, however our numeric table is finite and shouldn't be attrbuted to God, but liek most language most of what we say does not give God the full glory. But the best way to at least come ads close as possible is to linguistically apply terms that would best describe the infinite being.

Also in understanding that there are other various monotheistic faiths which presuppose the oneness of God our language should also be inclusive to them as well. For when we say "There is One true God" it therefore follows "Our God is the only true God." An alternative to this would be "There is one true principle." When we say 'principle' I do not mean just a doctrine or code of law, I mean that there is a rule in which it is uncreated but is constant and it is a guide for other laws. It is the primary source of all things and it is constant, this I would define to be God.

There alternative to saying "One" would be that there is an infinite principle in which all things originate from. Because God is infinite, something that which is infinite nullifies any numerical application because there is no causation. So in other words since God, not being created but is the creator is infinite there is logical way of applying any numerical value to him because hwas and always is. Of course when we look at our doctrine it says :

"In the name of God, the most gracious the most merciful

All praises is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds."

In the Exordium these lines very much sums up all other verses within the Qur'an, the Exordium which is considered to be very much the opening of knowledge to other verses is what describes the being Allah. In the ancient belief systems gods were deities who were partial to the world, controlling various aspects of the weather and/the human system. The gods of Olympus were worship for being great, but were limited because they only controlled certain aspects of the world and became jealous of each other when one would be worshiped greater than the other.

In the monotheistic system there is no room for jealousy because there is no logical way in which other deities (or principles) would exist. However there are various ways of explaining the infinite principle but overall it all leads to the same common truth. As Averroes (Ibn Rushd) puts it in his book "Faith and Reason in Islam" "It does not take multiple rulers to build one castle." This is just food for thought.

Dear Israfil,

God is One, alone and it is not possible to concieve God. He is far beyond Human preception. The more you tend to indulge in the Phliosphical aspects the more you will get confused.

There is a limit to human understanding and knowledge. Like of sprit or soul we have been told that we have not given with the understanding or wisdom to concieve or understand the soul.

Similarly we can not concieve Allah. We can know him by the attributes given in Quran. Like He is Unique, One and Only, Extremely Kind, Sustainer, Knower of all things, Extremely Just etc etc.

And that He has power over all things but He don't do anythig which is not worthy of His position or Status. Like He can't be unjust, He can't tell lie etc.

This topic was already discussed in this forum under "WHO IS ALLAH" and I never tried to equate any numeric property to Allah. I just tried to say that if the numbers can have no end why can't Allah have neither any begining or end. Perhaps I could not explain myself well.

It was only to counter the argument of those who agree that everything has a creator and who is the creator of God. So I tried to explain by giving them an example of infinate numbers and not attributing it to Allah. But you are not correct to say that our numaric table is finite?? If it is what is the last digit in mathematics???

HE IS THE ONE AND UNIQUE, FAR BEYOND OUR PRECEPTION.

HE HAS POWER OVER ALL THINGS.

NO ONE CAN SEE HIM AS HE CAN EVEN GRASP OUR SIGHT.

ALL GOOD NAMES BELONG TO HIM.

HE THE ETERNALLY ALIVE, IS HOLDING THIS COMPLETE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IN AN ABSOLUTE BALANCE.

Shams Zaman

Brother Shams our numeric system is neither divine nor comes from any other being except us through God's will, so long as we ( humans) exist so does our numeric system. the moment we cease the moment our numeric sytem ceases this is how our numeric system is finite. Also, when we look at numbers all the individual numbers aren't constant, therefore because there are additional numbers each individual number is finite. for example when we say 3+3=6 because our goal is to get to see we need 3 additonal numbers (if we add 3) to get to 6 unfortunately we cannot get 6 from just the number  3 making 3 individually a finite number.

Perhaps the only number numerically that can be said tobe infinite are rational numbers which contain a decimal but contains the same number For example .333333333333 to infinity is a rational number but if it were .382654 that is irrational thus not infinite in number. God like .3 bar is infinite and constant but again we equate God to our numeric system we limit him. remember the qur'an is also revealed in a human language, Arabic for understanding. If  God is incomprehensible we cannot logically say we "comprehend" his oneness. We cannot comprehend him yes but we cannot say that we comprehend "his numeric value either."

Israfil wrote: Brother Shams our numeric system is neither divine nor comes from any other being except us through God's will, so long as we ( humans) exist so does our numeric system. the moment we cease the moment our numeric sytem ceases this is how our numeric system is finite. Also, when we look at numbers all the individual numbers aren't constant, therefore because there are additional numbers each individual number is finite. for example when we say 3+3=6 because our goal is to get to see we need 3 additonal numbers (if we add 3) to get to 6 unfortunately we cannot get 6 from just the number  3 making 3 individually a finite number.

Interesting. 

Note:

My apologies to all as I made a mathematical mistake. When you get .3 bar or .3333333333 to infinity unfortuately due to my early rush I cannot totally explain but it's simple algebra. If you square root a number sometimes you'll get the square root of a number such as the square root of 4 is 2 or the square root of 10 is 5 etc. Also when I mentioned the problem 3+3=6 even though Angel may have gotten it others may not have.

When I say when we attribute numbers to God such as saying he is one I mean tto say the number One as we know of the number it in it of itself is finite on our numeric system. For example if were to get to the number five we would go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. By logic 2 being the greater number to one and three by being the greater number to 2 1 is finite individually because it is not a constant number. .333333333 on the other hand is constant because it goes all the way to ad infinitum. But .333333 where I made the mistake of allocating this to God is not infinite by law, but there has to be a calculation inn which makes it infinite mathematically such as squarte rooting a number to come out and make it a decimal

If we know ourselves and other we may know God, Allah, the Creator for we are to love ourselves and others as we love Ourselves and Him.

Allah, God the Creator is in all things so when we look in the mirror we are looking at part of Allah, God, the Creator.

We are His voice for speaking, His hands for doing, His feet for walking and all these things including our minds for solving His Challenges and Test He has set before us.

Aanne Marie Elderkin Habibi 

Annie by knowing ourselves how do we know God? the true knowledge of God is unabtainable so how can we know true knowledge if we ourselves are limited?

Dear Brother Israfil!

Thanks for explaining. I got you point, You are right that the moment we cease our numeric system ceases.

I am greatful to you for pointing out my mistake and correcting it. May Allah bless and reward you for that.

Shams Zaman

Israfil wrote: Brother Shams our numeric system is neither divine nor comes from any other being except us through God's will, so long as we ( humans) exist so does our numeric system. the moment we cease the moment our numeric sytem ceases this is how our numeric system is finite. Also, when we look at numbers all the individual numbers aren't constant, therefore because there are additional numbers each individual number is finite. for example when we say 3+3=6 because our goal is to get to see we need 3 additonal numbers (if we add 3) to get to 6 unfortunately we cannot get 6 from just the number  3 making 3 individually a finite number. Perhaps the only number numerically that can be said tobe infinite are rational numbers which contain a decimal but contains the same number For example .333333333333 to infinity is a rational number but if it were .382654 that is irrational thus not infinite in number. God like .3 bar is infinite and constant but again we equate God to our numeric system we limit him. remember the qur'an is also revealed in a human language, Arabic for understanding. If  God is incomprehensible we cannot logically say we "comprehend" his oneness. We cannot comprehend him yes but we cannot say that we comprehend "his numeric value either."

Israil,

All these numbers are confusing me.  I do not believe that God is a fraction, like 1/3, or a reciprocal 3/1, or some other number like 13 or 31 or anything else just because they are "prime" or something.

I understand that the Holy Quran says "God is One".  Almighty God is one Principal, the Principal that guides all of Creation, here on Earth, and on Betelgeuse 500 light years away, and in the Andromeda Galaxy 1,000,000 light years away, out to the farthest limits of our telescopes and beyond.  All ~1 trillion cubic megaparsecs of the Heavens obey one set of Physical Laws.  We do not look out past some distance, or in some direction, and see a galaxy with a different law of gravity, for example.  How could even the Earth and Moon interact with 2 laws of Gravity?  If gravity pulled down on Earth, but pushed away from the Moon, there would be no stable interaction, but only chaos.  So much more for clusters of galaxies interacting involving hundreds of billions of solar masses of gas and dust.

All these obey One set of Physical Laws.  Who made those Laws?  Who made all the matter in the stars?  Did you?  Did Jack over there?  Did Jack make all that?  He did??  Can he do it again, with people watching?

All the Heavens obey One set of Physical Laws that are, at root, simple and elegant.  In Physics, you are taught that "Nature Prefers Simplicity".  And what is Simpler or more Whole than "One".

Almighty God is beyond our wildest imaginations.  Try to hold in your mind the concept of "1 Trillion Cubic Megaparsecs of Visible Universe Alone".  It breaks our mortal brains.

But throughout is still the same One Principal, One Set of Laws, One Way of Doing Business, Everywhere, All the Time, All at Once.  No Exceptions.  Ever.  Try and make one!  Try to make Gravity stop working!  Go ahead!  You won't break God's Laws, it won't happen.  Try!  "And in the news today, Jack Smith made the Laws of Physics stop..."  -- we haven't read that headline, yet, anyway.

So Almighty God is beyond our comprehension.  And Utter, Total, and Absolute, in His turf (all Creation).

It seems to me to be a fine line between the presumptive arrogance of assuming we can "know God"... and denying the Infinte Gift of Free Will, Reason, and Mind that we have to prevent ourselves from trying to even answer obvious questions like "the nature of God".  Can we mortal men not coin a word that conveys the very inconceivability of Almighty God?  Perhaps our mortal minds are week and unseeing and unhearing and unfathoming -- but nothing in All of Almighty God's own handiwork is hard for Him to know.  A microwave photon excites an orbital electron in a silicon atom on a grain of dust somewhere in the vast inter-stellar reaches of the Milky Way's unfathomable Galactic Disk, 50,000 light years away.  Almighty God saw it, heard it, and knew it in Real Time.  Men might not, but Almighty God, unfathomably, knows all.  Nothing escapes His ever-watching gaze -- by definition, it cannot, and will not, ever.

Can we say that, perhaps?, "Almighty God is One, Utterly Beyond All"

Peace Bismark,

I  wish you gave further review to my explanation and at least try to understand as brother Shamil has. OK let me explain.....God is One as we say, but we don't say that God is like the number one of course but what we mean is that God is the sovereign deity that exist and there is no other deity (or reality) that exist or assist God, thus this belief has already been established though. What I meant here is even when we say "God is One" we are still going back to that numerical table which is human created and which is not finite. Even our numeric system which has equations whose answers are indefinite (infinite in this case) all these numbers cannot be related to God.

For example the moment we humans die our numeric tables cease to exist...... Even while in our existence because God cannot be attributed by humans anything physically comprehensible thus we cannot attribute any numerical value to God save he is the lone infinite principle. In actuality no words or expressions can be rightfully be attributed to God is we hold the belief that he is beyond any comparison. How can we compare God as One when the number One, is a human creation. Y4es you have read God is one in the Qur'an but as Allah has mentioned he had written things so that we may understand.

When God speaks "our language" he uses "our methods of understanding to help us understand" the messages he is trying to convey. So the words such as "Say he God is One" are ways in which helps us understand the basis of monotheism however we must understand that even by saying he is one God the Almighty is above and beyond that statement.