your opinion? - agnostic meets Muslim
Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37994
Printed Date: 24 November 2024 at 8:21pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: your opinion? - agnostic meets Muslim
Posted By: id665310
Subject: your opinion? - agnostic meets Muslim
Date Posted: 30 August 2016 at 11:31am
|
Hello. I wanted to ask here for some advice and thoughts. There were two categories here that seemed almost suitable so I apologise if the other one would have been better.
I noticed this very private, guarded woman in a coffee place, in a town where we live an hour form London, and became curious about her. I'm probably ten years older than her and this is not about men and women, romance etc, but curiosity about her as a fellow human being. We didn't speak for three months, and then I saw someone shout at her, and then she shouted back. The man had harassed her before, she told me. We ended up talking for quite some time, nearly two hours. It was one of the most beautiful and lively conversations I've had for years. The ice breaker was a book she'd been reading which I'd read. She told me she'd converted to Islam at university. We talked about life in our town, where we'd both grown up it seems. I felt nervous, partly affected by a couple of espressos, but partly because I'm seldom in company, and wanted her to feel at ease and like talking to me. I saw her again the next day and we waved a little wave. She went and sat by herself, which I'd fully expected. I did feel a bit sad but I fully accepted it. We're not that different in this regard of being private. I had told her in our talk that I wouldn't bug her but that she'd be welcome to sit with me any time. I wanted her to put her at ease. I would like a dialogue and friendship with her. I don't feel our different ontological makeup should be a problem, but if it is for her then I will have to humbly accept it. I've wondered if I should write her a letter and give it to her. I don't want to harrass or annoy her but it was such a lovely talk that it seems strange to consider she would have decided altogether on not having another talk. I don't mean this in any vain, narcissistic way because I am a quiet and diffident man, quite private and guarded myself. Do you think she will have decided to not be open to knowing me because I'm an agnostic? Could she have decided to be some kind of separatist? How common is that? I would actually understand it, given what our town is like - maybe living here has scarred her. I'm nothing like the locals though. (I did also stress to her that I was emphatically an agnostic and not an atheist.) She does seem a bit angry in a simmering kind of way - _not_ to me but regarding experiences; she was very polite to me - and I can understand that if she grew up in this town, a prejudiced place. To me, with ecological concerns that will involve us all before long regardless of our beliefs, I just think it is good to forge a dialogue with people of different creeds to find how we are allies. I am fully sincere and earnest, and don't wish to ask anything of her 'as a man'. I know I'm too old, and I've let that side of life go really. I have nothing to offer in that kind of capacity. It may be that she has assumed I will want to be with her romantically; maybe she has had a bit too much attention or maybe something traumatic has happened and any unsolicited attention may be painful or anxiety-making. I will give up gracefully if I need to but I'd like to find if I need to know something, to prime myself to be a good friend to her. I do try to learn of Islam, I have a few books, I google, and I've done this for a few years simply out of interest. What I've written above was written a few weeks back in another, seemingly dead forum. I will add that since then I've been away for a fortnight and then since seen her again in the same place. When she saw me she put her hands over her eyes, almost like a shy child. I know, it doesn't sound promising. I should emphasise that I merely caught sight of her while carrying my coffee to my table, and wasn't actively staring or anything weird. I've been thinking I should just go to a different coffee place because I don't want to inadvertently make her feel uncomfortable. She had said something before that made me think she might be either schizophrenic or have some schizophrenia-like symptoms, or possibly something on the autism spectrum, or simply that she has a different kind of neurology and is hyper-sensitive. I feel like my heart is breaking not being able to ask if she is all right, if I can help, if she needs someone, a friend. I don't want to walk away in case she simply doesn't know well how to be with people for some reason. I've comsidered again a letter, but I don't know how to safely get it to her - I worry she might scream at me if I ask to leave it with her, and I've considered writing to the coffee place and asking the manager to give it to her. I mean, what if she wants to know me but is anxious or some kind of neurological difference is causing her to do the opposite of what she wants? I have been like that in my life, especially in my 20s. She literally said as she left for work after our first talk, 'I enjoyed talking to you,' and I didn't prise that statement out of her. I would guess that many people would just say give up. I will if that's all I can do but I feel like I need to be sure it's what she wants. But it also feels like this is not about two individuals. It feels profound, like it's about civilisation crumbling, creeds separating, humanity turning away from itself and the universe deciding a huge no. It feels, in other words, symptomatic, an instance of cultural malaise. And that is why it's heartbreaking to me, how layered the experience is, because I know that neither I nor this one woman are that important. Thank you for your time. |
Replies:
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 8:28pm
|
Peace be with you.
In psychology, agnostic is more likely to reject or doubt the possibility of the knowledge that there is a desire to take other means in accordance with the attitude and the belief itself, or it can also be said to claim the uncertainty of knowledge, consequently stand up between the two junctions which are both difficult to determined, or trying to find another alternative which is actually the combination of these two things. Usually someone who is in a situation like this will appear in his/her mind: "take it or leave it" or "it's better to try than never". I suggest you, don�t let your heart's covered with doubts, skeptical etc. because it will affect your mood in which you don't know until when this will get a settlement, even this could be that one day the circumstances will change quickly. Hopefully you will find a way out (solution) Regards, Asep |
Posted By: id665310
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 12:26pm
|
Hello. I see there there have been 19 views of my post. I understand that my post is unusual and perhaps awkward. I'm also very grateful that the moderators have granted me the use of the forum to post. If people here do not feel able to offer comments, would it be possible to summarise why? Even this might be of some assistance.
I can see from some perusal here that people do come here to cause trouble and I'd like to assure you that I have not. I have the same intentions here as I have towards this woman. Thanks. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 03 September 2016 at 1:09am
|
Hello id665310,
I apologize if there are errors in giving advice or thoughts requested by you, however, can it be explained more specifically ? so that we can capture directly what's the real intention. Thank you. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 03 September 2016 at 4:51am
|
Respectfully, id, it sounds as if you are not a true agnostic anymore but rather a seeker who still has deep doubts. If this woman is leading you to learn more about Islam something decidedly non-agnostic is in play.
------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: id665310
Date Posted: 03 September 2016 at 5:04am
|
Thanks to both of you.
There might be translation/communication problems here, but I am still very grateful for contributions that have been made or that might be made. I think as oxymoronic as it sounds that I probably am, in fact, a confirmed agnostic. I think human beings do not have the tools to know and that we merely commit to ideas based on our fallible experiences, and that this is all we have. I would not want to offend anyone by saying this and am merely saying that this is where my particular life has led me. Though being an agnostic of the type I am causes much doubt, doubt can be an oddly positive thing - it limits aggression and can limit any instinct to impose will on others or to expect others to see things as the agnostic does. This is something that can facilitate peace. My interest in this woman is as I portray it. I think there would be some beauty in being a friend of someone with a different ontological makeup who is still very conceivably an ally. I can see, David, that you think this woman's religiosity has caused my dormant one to flicker, and it may be so, but I'm inclined to think things are as I present them on this occasion, as stated above. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 03 September 2016 at 7:54am
| Id, welcome! You mentioned going to another coffee shop, and that may indeed be your best bet in this situation. Her religion will not allow for sitting and chatting with you on any regular basis in the coffee shop. Seems that we never really outgrow infatuations, but take the highroad and properly manage this one. Stay away from her. All the best! |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 11 September 2016 at 2:55pm
|
Abuayisha: Stay away from her.
Airmano:  ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 17 September 2016 at 4:18am
| Dear Bro id665310, I am really not very clear about your question other than merely a comment or opinion about your interest in a Muslim Lady. Your selfless intentions to help her are highly appreciated, but when you say "I would like a dialogue and friendship with her...", I think now you are expecting something payback from her? Is that correct? However, if you are interested in knowing about Islam that might help you in your objective, then you may ask specific question as a starting point. Hope by answering my specific questions, we shall have very fruitful discussion on this forum. Till then, best regards. |
Posted By: id665310
Date Posted: 28 September 2016 at 10:33am
|
Hello. I had thought my thread died so I hadn't looked at it for a while, and had been away from my home town and therefore the coffee house for a while.
The 'problem', insofar as it is one, has died down really. I have given up either greeting her or giving her a quick attempt at a smile and am trying to press on with my own activities, but I do feel a bit saddened still for the time being. I should clarify that she spends a lot of time in that place. It's her right to and to spend it on her own or with whoever she likes, but I don't think she feels she may not socialise or partake in caffeine or anything like that, if that was implied before. I'm not angry at her or judging her but I reserve my right to feel an actual sadness for the time being. I don't think there is enough mixing, at least in a town like mine, and I think more mixing between cultures would be healthier. I hope I find someone who will take the place I hoped she might. It's true that I could find out what I'd like to know here and from books, but I'm pretty solitary, reluctantly, and would like to have discovered these things in the context of a friendship. I'd like to have asked her about Amina Wadud and Laila Ahmed and the like, and whether most of her guidance was from men when she was converting. I was interested in how she feels about possible conflict in her life as an intellectually capable person and as a woman - how much of what goes through her mind does she have to let go of, and so on. Things that take some diplomacy and care to ask about. Part of me wonders if she's read this and recognised herself. I imagine this matter is pretty dead now, though it could be resuscitated if I should meet a replacement. Whether God is something pre-existing or whether it's a faculty human beings have evolved, my intentions are genuine, and I would say to anyone living by God, at this difficult and far from peaceful time on a world heading for ecological destruction regardless of creed and allegiance: if my actions towards this woman aren't God working through a human being, then what is? |