With the recent uproar about the punishment of an Afgan man who had converted from Islam to Christianity, is this a Muslim thing or just an Afgan thing?

Just asking.

Is this not a valid question from today's news from Afganistan?

Jenni wrote: My own personal beleif is that execution for someone that converts to another religon is not needed. The person will have to face God someday and then will know if the decision was right or not. Who cares about the guy anyway, not me.

I guess you don't take this seriously.

"You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart."

Jenni wrote: Usa1, I meant who cares about this one guy becoming a christian? I am saying it is a non issue for me and I don't care and am not angry with him at all. It is his choice, his life and his soul. Just as a christian could say about someone who converts to islam. Let them be. That is what I meant.

Thanks for your clarification.

Mishmish wrote: Freedom of _Expression in Islam Mohammad Hashim Kamali, Islamic Text Society, 1997 http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/islam/freedom/kamali_freedom.doc - http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/islam/freedom /kamali_freedom.doc [Dr Mohammad Hashim Kamali is Professor of Law at the International Islamic University Malaysia where he has been teaching Islamic law and jurisprudence since 1985. Among his other works published by the Islamic Texts Society is Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence.] Mahmassani has observed that the death penalty was meant to apply, not to simple acts of apostasy from Islam, but when apostasy was linked to an act of political betrayal of the community. The Prophet never killed anyone solely for apostasy. This being the case, the death penalty was not meant to apply to a simple change of faith but to punish acts such as treason, joining forces with the enemy and sedition. The late Ayatollah Mutahhari highlighted the incompatibility of coercion with the spirit of Islam, and the basic redundancy of punitive measures in the propagation of its message. He wrote that it is impossible to force anyone to acquire the kind of faith that is required by Islam, just as 'it is not possible to spank a child into solving an arithmetical problem. His mind and thought must be left free in order that he may solve it. The Islamic faith is something of this kind.' Selim el-Awa discusses the issue of apostasy at length, declaring that 'there is an urgent need to reinterpret the principles contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah'. He cites the fact that the Qur'an is completely silent on the death penalty for apostasy, and that the evidence in the Sunnah is open to interpretation. El-Awa elaborates that the death penalty in the Sunnah is not designed for apostasy per se but for high treason, or hirabah, that is, when apostasy is accompanied by hostility and rebellion against the community and its legitimate leadership. . . The Prophet did not treat apostasy as a proscribed offense (hadd), but, on the contrary, pardoned many individuals who had embraced Islam, then renounced it, and then embraced it again. . .

How can we save this man's life?

USA1, maybe we can email the Afhgani counsulate. I'm sure it is online. Or the Ambasador from Afhganistan to the U.S.A. I would stress that in a democratic country like the U.s. or Canada for example many christians have converted to Islam and they still have equal protection and rights under the law. No one can be executed for changing thier religon. And that Afghanistan must show the world that they care about individual and human rights and that thier is no compulsion in religon.

Well, I wish the starving women and children in Afghanistan could get this much press, attention, and sympathy here in the States. Or the millions trapped in Darfur, or the drought and consquent food shortage in south Africa...Or the Christian Palestinians who are as oppressed as the Muslim Palestinians by the Israeli occupation.

Having said that, I think writing the consulate is a great idea. If they are inundated with letters, they may begin to realise how important many people find this man's life.

But, Afghanistan is a sovereign nation that has held, U.S. "enforced" democratic elections in which the U.S. Governments choice of leader was elected.

They have to be allowed to make their own laws, don't they?

Now here in Texas, when G.W. was governor they had absolutely no qualms about putting people to death and in fact, he refused to sign stays of execution for 5 mentally retarded people, who were executed.  I'd like to say that things have gotten better since he moved on, but unfortunately being crazy or retarded in Texas does not win you a reprieve. However, it's good to see that G.W. is so concerned about the mental state of condemned people in other countries.

As'Salaamu Alaikum,

Sister Mishmish I understand where you are coming from and where you are going, but if I may, respectful disagree with what you are composing here. first and foremost although we may say that Afghanistan has the right to make its own laws, techinically it is not a totally sovereign nation especially since the U.S is still there. The Afghnistanian government is still not totally developed, barely has a constitution and still has internal problems within its own judicial system and still struggles with the realities of tribal warfare....

Whew!

Now the U.S although it's legal system is found to be flawed we on the other had are not based on tribalism nor are our courts ran by so-called religious leaders. Understanding this we must understand that in our judicial system our premise is that this individual will get the fairest trial regardless being found guilty or innocent. In Afghnistan you are guilty whether found guilty or innocent. As various clerics have stated if he is released they will coerce the people to try to kill him. Now that is just Barbaric!

Even though ther is somewhat a double standard here you cannot compare two different counties whose laws are based on two entirely different principles. We can say why does Bush do this and that but for the purpose of this thread we must address the issue at hand. In my opinion they are condemning this man for something he did 16 years ago! Not only isn't unfair to pre-judge him well befor preliminaries and his trial but also even if found innocent. His convictions are his own and doesn't deserve to die just because he chooses otherwise. I overheard on the news that a cleric in Afghanistan said "This is the worse sin!" I'm sure he is  a Sheykh! Funny I thought shirk was the worse sin which is considered unforgivable oh how we see the sign of our times....LOL

Assalamu Alaikum:

I am not comparing the two countries at all, that is my whole point. They aren't the same country and they are not governed by the same laws.

True, the American military is still there, but our government has used Afghanistan as a shining example of how democracy is working in an Islamic country. Besides, once the U.S. military goes into a country, it doesn't leave, so we might as well get used to it.

Islamically, this man should not be put to death, but much of what happens in Afghanistan has no basis in Islam. Is it barbaric? To us, perhaps. But to most European countries which do not have the death penalty, the U.S.A. is barbaric for continuing to execute people.

Either Afghanistan is a free democratic country that has the right to make it's own laws, or they are controlled by the U.S. and the last two elections there were a complete sham. We, as a nation cannot continue to say that we want countries to be free and democratic, then not allow them to do so.

Bismillah,

I hadn't heard he was going to be "deported".  Where will he go?  And obviously, there are others like him who would like to leave also, so it's not just this guy who needs help.  No wonder people turn to a different faith when the people in their own are oppresive and cruel.

Has anyone thought about why he converted, after all?  I think that the true love in Islam needs to be preached in Afghanistan and Jordan and Iraq et cetera.  People are lonely and polarized because religion is politically joined and motivated when it needs to be a personal guide and comfort most of all.

herjihad wrote: Bismillah, I hadn't heard he was going to be "deported".  Where will he go?  And obviously, there are others like him who would like to leave also, so it's not just this guy who needs help.  No wonder people turn to a different faith when the people in their own are oppresive and cruel. Has anyone thought about why he converted, after all?  I think that the true love in Islam needs to be preached in Afghanistan and Jordan and Iraq et cetera.  People are lonely and polarized because religion is politically joined and motivated when it needs to be a personal guide and comfort most of all.

Good points

I think the only way (for your second paragraph) is to separate church and religion.

Assalamu Alaikum:

There is no separation between religion and politics in Islam. Islam is a complete way of life.

However, Islam is clearly not being followed here. What is needed is a separation of true Islam and ignorant cultural beliefs.

Mishmish wrote: Assalamu Alaikum: There is no separation between religion and politics in Islam. Islam is a complete way of life. However, Islam is clearly not being followed here. What is needed is a separation of true Islam and ignorant cultural beliefs.

Are not the Islamic run governements responcible for the feelings of Muslims against the west? They could sanction western countries that they deem to be a threat to their culture. That would eliminate the western culture from encroaching on each country.

It would stop the oil flow to us greedy Americans and remove the infidels from their lands.

USA1 wrote:   Are not the Islamic run governements responcible for the feelings of Muslims against the west? They could sanction western countries that they deem to be a threat to their culture. That would eliminate the western culture from encroaching on each country. It would stop the oil flow to us greedy Americans and remove the infidels from their lands.

There are no Islamic governments at this time. There will not be a true Islamic government again until close to the Day of Judgement.

In the meantime, I believe that the West is responsible for the way Middle Eastern Muslims feel about the West. Most of the Middle Eastern governments are friendly with the West because most are monarchs, dictators, or tyrants that keep control through outside help. These governments can't turn against the West because the West is keeping them in power.

Besides, do you honestly believe the West would just walk away from the oil in the Middle East? Never gonna happen. The West will stay in the Middle East until the oil reserves are gone, which should be about 30-40 years from now.

Mishmish wrote: USA1 wrote:   Are not the Islamic run governements responcible for the feelings of Muslims against the west? They could sanction western countries that they deem to be a threat to their culture. That would eliminate the western culture from encroaching on each country. It would stop the oil flow to us greedy Americans and remove the infidels from their lands. There are no Islamic governments at this time. There will not be a true Islamic government again until close to the Day of Judgement. In the meantime, I believe that the West is responsible for the way Middle Eastern Muslims feel about the West. Most of the Middle Eastern governments are friendly with the West because most are monarchs, dictators, or tyrants that keep control through outside help. These governments can't turn against the West because the West is keeping them in power. Besides, do you honestly believe the West would just walk away from the oil in the Middle East? Never gonna happen. The West will stay in the Middle East until the oil reserves are gone, which should be about 30-40 years from now.

30 to 40 years seems pretty short. I guess that will eliminate the western influence then. End of the issue I suppose.

How unfortunate for the middle-east countries to run out of resources that supply their countries wealth. I wonder what they will do in 40 years for income?

ak_m_f wrote: Afghan Convert in Hiding After Release KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan man who had faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity quickly vanished Tuesday after he was released from prison, apparently out of fear for his life with Muslim clerics still demanding his death. Italy's Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini said he would ask his government to grant Abdul Rahman asylum. Fini was among the first to speak out on the man's behalf. Rahman, 41, was released from the high-security Policharki prison on the outskirts of Kabul late Monday, Afghan Justice Minister Mohammed Sarwar Danish told The Associated Press. "We released him last night because the prosecutors told us to," he said. "His family was there when he was freed, but I don't know where he was taken." Deputy Attorney-General Mohammed Eshak Aloko said prosecutors had issued a letter calling for Rahman's release because "he was mentally unfit to stand trial." He also said he did not know where Rahman had gone after being released. He said Rahman may be sent overseas for medical treatment. On Monday, hundreds of clerics, students and others chanting "Death to Christians!" marched through the northern Afghan city of Mazar-e-Sharif to protest the court decision Sunday to dismiss the case. Several Muslim clerics threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if he is freed, saying that he is clearly guilty of apostasy and deserves to die. "Abdul Rahman must be killed. Islam demands it," said senior Cleric Faiez Mohammed, from the nearby northern city of Kunduz. "The Christian foreigners occupying     Afghanistan are attacking our religion." Rahman was arrested last month after police discovered him with a Bible during a custody dispute over his two daughters. He was put on trial last week for converting 16 years ago while he was a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He faced the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws. The case set off an outcry in the United States and other nations that helped oust the hard-line Taliban regime in late 2001 and provide aid and military support for Afghan President Hamid Karzai.     President Bush and others had insisted Afghanistan protect personal beliefs. U.N. spokesman Adrian Edwards said Rahman has asked for asylum outside Afghanistan. "We expect this will be provided by one of the countries interested in a peaceful solution to this case," he said. Fini, the Italian foreign minister who is also deputy premier, will seek permission to grant Rahman asylum at a Cabinet meeting Wednesday, a Foreign Ministry statement said. Fini had earlier expressed Italy's "indignation" over the case.     Pope Benedict XVI also appealed to Karzai to protect Rahman. Italy has close ties with Afghanistan, whose former king, Mohammed Zaher Shah, was allowed to live with his family in exile in Rome for 30 years. The former royals returned to Kabul after the fall of the Taliban regime a few years ago. Asked whether the U.S. government was doing anything to secure Rahman's safety after his release, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said in Washington that where he goes after being freed is "up to Mr. Rahman." He urged Afghans not to resort to violence even if they are unhappy with the resolution of the case. The international outrage over Rahman's case put Karzai in a difficult position because he also risked offending religious sensibilities in Afghanistan, where senior Muslim clerics have been united in calling for Rahman to be executed.

I think the subject is closed now that he is in Italy.

USA1 wrote: 30 to 40 years seems pretty short. I guess that will eliminate the western influence then. End of the issue I suppose. How unfortunate for the middle-east countries to run out of resources that supply their countries wealth. I wonder what they will do in 40 years for income?

This is an interesting article about the decline of the Saudi oil fields.

http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=9966&am p;sectionID=56 - http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=9966&am p;am p;sectionID=56

and the site it came from:

http://www.odac-info.org/ - http://www.odac-info.org/

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

All guidance is from Allah swt and I seek protection and help of my Lord who is above all the blames of ignorant people.

my sincere apology to admin ppl, moderators for doing this as they want to avoid a big argument and i do understand but this needs to be clarified

In islamic shari'ah punishment for an apostate is execution

( http://answering-islam.org.uk/Hahn/Mawdudi/ - Admin:link has been removed , see guidelines)

here is a link specially for non-muslim ppl as im not a scholar, im a follower of the path who knows and sees existance of her lord when see a bud coming out of stem or sees a child beeing born r a person dying and knows that there is nothing in her power that could have done any of this to happen or neither has power to stop it, so i know that my lord who holds the strings of my breath has the right to make laws

to all my muslim brothers and sisters, do u honestly think that every single problem that u will come across, u will need to just open Holy Quran and u would read and understand it, why u think Allah swt put Messengers (as) in between, why u think Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) said that best people of his ummah would be his companions and then people after that n then after that, did any of u honestly try to find what happened in the times of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) or the rightly guided caliphs (ra) with matters regarding apostates, why cant we get in us that our lord is Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim and existance of every thing is due to his rehma, he is his full knowledge what a soul would do but still blesses it with life to give it a chance, please dont be apologetic about shari'ah laws cos Allah swt in his full knowledge made em for our benefit if we dont hav intelligence to c that then say khair inshaAllah we will follow it as it is from our lord and not question them cos if sun is started hurtin ur eyes no fault of sun is it, its just u caught an infection.

if moderators think that this would create a stir then remove it and im sorry

wassalam

Assalamu Alaikum Sister Fatima:

The site you have listed is a site of ex-Muslims who have converted to Christianity who have an agenda to show Islam in the worst light possible.

If you have read the thread here, there are rulings from scholars that show that apostacy is not an automatic death sentence in Islam.

Mishmish wrote: If you have read the thread here, there are rulings from scholars that show that apostacy is not an automatic death sentence in Islam.

Your reference to that is ? I only ask because i'm in the middle of researching stuff.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

I am ever so sorry for putting up this link, I have a terrible habit of not reading intro or part about the author, lesson learnt inshaAllah in future wont happen

with my limited knowledge from reading some seerah books, books bout lives of our rightly guided caliphs and some info bout our four imams, I never had any other knowledge of punishment of apostasy, I had read work of Maulana Mawdudi and thought this was most comprehensive work done by new day�s scholar. To my surprise I found its translation on the web and let me tell u one of most accurate and eloquent translation of any work, although intentions of translators were whateva it was. Im trying to find another translation of same work from other websites if I could and inshaAllah will post that.

Now coming to matter in hand, dear sister an opinion of new day�s scholar is needed in matters where Holy Quran, Ahadith, Sunnah and for majority of scholars period of first four caliphs is quiet, then opinions of Imams are sought then its is checked whether there was ijtihaad on the matter or not, now some scholars say that Holy Quran has no clear verse to indicate the punishment, but there are ahadith, there are examples from life of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw), then examples from each Khalifah, and there was no difference among the four Imams, and matter of fact is issue was not for debate for a whole first 1000 years r so, so how come it popped up after all that time? U think new scholars found some thing of a religion which companions, tabi�n r generations after them dint have knowledge about?  Or we present generations feel more pain of people and are more sensitive than the person to whom Allah swt gave his own name of Rahim?  Just for ur own peace of heart check what these scholars are saying bout Jihaad I am quite sure they will be using examples from life of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) to explain that some of the Ayaat which seems quite strict r not to be taken in their meaning. Right approach but wrong reasons. 

Alhamdulillah each n every one of us among ummah wants to spread this message but we shouldn�t try to sugar coat stuff r the matters which we cant explain brush em under the carpet. One blessing which will prove itself time n time again is Holy Quran, we need to tell it to people that first step would be realizing it is truth from Allah swt, which modern world has made some what easier with scientific discoveries, person who discovered about finger printing is alhamdulillah a muslim now cos of effort of muslim who wrote him a letter telling him bout first few Ayaat of Surah Qayyamah and how it is there for nearly fourteen centuries but due to lack of knowledge and understanding neva knew the meaning when Allah swt says to people who have doubts about resurrection that �Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers�.  This would prove the truthfulness of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) and the fact that Allah is our lord and as our lord it is in his rights to make laws for us, some of em which we understand and some we don�t but it don�t mean that they are not to be followed

Here is a matter from life of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) which shows how such matters should be dealt with

�To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth, and whether you disclose what is in yourselves or conceal it, Allah will call you to account for it. Then He forgives whom He wills and punishes whom He wills. And Allah is able to do all things�.  In this Ayah [2:284], Allah states that He has knowledge of what the hearts conceal, and consequently, He will hold the creation accountable for whatever is in their hearts. This is why when this Ayah was revealed, it was hard on the Companions, since out of their strong faith and conviction, they were afraid that such reckoning would diminish their good deeds.  Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Hurayrah said, "When �To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth, and whether you disclose what is in yourselves or conceal it, Allah will call you to account for it. Then He forgives whom He wills and punishes whom He wills. And Allah is able to do all things�  was revealed to the Messenger of Allah , it was very hard for the Companions of the Messenger . The Companions came to the Messenger and fell to their knees saying, `O Messenger of Allah! We were asked to perform what we can bear of deeds: the prayer, the fast, Jihad and charity. However, this Ayah was revealed to you, and we cannot bear it.' The Messenger of Allah said �Do you want to repeat what the People of the Two Scriptures before you said, that is, `We hear and we disobey' Rather, say, `We hear and we obey, and we seek Your forgiveness, O our Lord, and the Return is to You.� When the people accepted this statement and their tongues recited it, Allah sent down afterwards �The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do)the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers � and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all).''  When they did that, Allah abrogated the Ayah [2:284] and sent down the Ayah, �Allah burdens not a person beyond his scope. He gets reward for that (good) which he has earned, and he is punished for that (evil) which he has earned. "Our Lord! Punish us not if we forget or fall into error.'') until the end.''

 Wassalam

Fatima wrote: Now coming to matter in hand, dear sister an opinion of new day�s scholar is needed in matters where Holy Quran, Ahadith, Sunnah and for majority of scholars period of first four caliphs is quiet, then opinions of Imams are sought then its is checked whether there was ijtihaad on the matter or not, now some scholars say that Holy Quran has no clear verse to indicate the punishment, but there are ahadith, there are examples from life of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw), then examples from each Khalifah, and there was no difference among the four Imams, and matter of fact is issue was not for debate for a whole first 1000 years r so, so how come it popped up after all that time? U think new scholars found some thing of a religion which companions, tabi�n r generations after them dint have knowledge about?

Dear Sis Fatima, I don't think Quran is quiet over the issue of Apostasy. How can someone ignore clear verses of Quran where it categorically removes any ambiguity on the issue of compulsion of faith. Since "apostasy" as discussed on this issue of "Afghanistan", is clearly a case of compulsion of faith, I think, Quran does provide clear guidelines. Only in the absence of these guidelines, which are quite numerous on the subject in Quran, that one needed to go into other soureces. But the fact of the matter is, that Quran specifically states that there is no compulsion. If we forget about these verses, or as my traditional scholars has very convienently been declaring them "abrogated", only then we left with no choice but to accept their view. Since no sane person can think as how these verses of the Quran get "abrogated", therefore, their assertion is totally baseless based upon limited vision. 

AhmadJoyia wrote: But the fact of the matter is, that Quran specifically states that there is no compulsion. If we forget about these verses,

and what about other verses, you just forget those to concentrate on others that you most perfer ?

Angel wrote: Mishmash, I have things to say to your 3 lastest posts but I cannot at the moment for a couple of reasons, when i can, i post else where.

Assalamu Alaikum:

The three posts were articles from scholars. My knowledge is very limited, but I believe that their opinion is correct. The Quran does not call for the death of anyone who commits apostacy. Since the Hadith are contradictory on this subject, then we must go back to Allah's words, the Quran.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

All im saying is Holy Quran is best explained by Sunnah of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) and then how rightly guided caliphs implemented it, Ali (ra) once said deen is not common sense if it was we would be wiping bottom of khuf not the top (in wudu), dont no why i felt compelled puting what was in practice during best times of this ummah and yeah every one has right of opinion so khair inshaAllah

wassalam

Angel wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: But the fact of the matter is, that Quran specifically states that there is no compulsion. If we forget about these verses, and what about other verses, you just forget those to concentrate on others that you most perfer ?

OK, here I was refering to evidence from "whole" of Quran Vs all other sources. Now, do kindly remind me of what "other" verses from Quran are you refering to pertaining the issue of apostasy in Islam?

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Assalamu alaikum All im saying is Holy Quran is best explained by Sunnah of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) and then how rightly guided caliphs implemented it, Ali (ra) once said deen is not common sense if it was we would be wiping bottom of khuf not the top (in wudu), dont no why i felt compelled puting what was in practice during best times of this ummah and yeah every one has right of opinion so khair inshaAllah wassalam

Sis, kindly note that though it is very true that where Quran is the law, its implementation comes from authentic Sunnah of our beloved Prophet Mohammad, yet we need the law first and then its explanation and not the other way around. The law of Quran says there is no compulsion in faith; plain and simple. Hope you are also reading the same verses with the same meaning as I am. Then where is the difficulty?

Your example of Hz. Ali's saying is very generalizing, and doesn't provide any link with the topic under discussion.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

256. There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.  Surah Baqarah

There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.''

It was reported that the Ansar were the reason behind revealing this Ayah, although its indication is general in meaning. Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Abbas said [that before Islam], "When (an Ansar) woman would not bear children who would live, she would vow that if she gives birth to a child who remains alive, she would raise him as a Jew. When Banu An-Nadir (the Jewish tribe) were evacuated [from Al-Madinah], some of the children of the Ansar were being raised among them, and the Ansar said, `We will not abandon our children.' Allah revealed,

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path.)''

Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i also recorded this Hadith. As for the Hadith that Imam Ahmad recorded, in which Anas said that the Messenger of Allah said to a man,

("Embrace Islam.'' The man said, "I dislike it.'' The Prophet said, "Even if you dislike it.'')

First, this is an authentic Hadith, with only three narrators between Imam Ahmad and the Prophet . However, it is not relevant to the subject under discussion, for the Prophet did not force that man to become Muslim. The Prophet merely invited this man to become Muslim, and he replied that he does not find himself eager to become Muslim. The Prophet said to the man that even though he dislikes embracing Islam, he should still embrace it, `for Allah will grant you sincerity and true intent.' (tafsir ibn kathir)

Now even if u want to imply it in its general meaning ok, then there is no compulsion in the religion.  Now every one wants a right of free speech? What happened in recent past? Now every one also want free will to choose, so why do they get punished when they choose few things? Reason being every freedom has boundaries to the right of next person, community or whatever is relevant in that particular matter.  Now its Allah�s right to be recognized, he blesses every human being with uncountable blessings, gives them chances throughout life to come to truth, even though Allah swt has put in each individual a basic sense of existence of Lord above and high, He still helps them out throughout life to identify him.  Now people who choose not to open up their eyes to this fact still do acts which are termed good, and Allah swt rewards them with happiness and every thing of world being most Just and Kind.  But when Allah swt blesses a person with light of faith and then he fails to control his whims and desires and follows shaytan that�s when all his past good deeds go to waste bcos that�s when he has transgressed all the limits (this particular line not my view its ruling of Imam Hanifah), now what u think a worldly person would say if u ask em bout greatest crime, actually even majority of muslims would say the same thing. Its killing another person, in American law execution is still there for killing another person right? (thank Allah swt for that otherwise we would have to explain why islam is so harsh, AGAIN)  Now Holy Quran states in two places which r in my knowledge �shirk is worse than killing� Surah Baqarah 191 & 217.  All this I mentioned to tell u how grave the matter of disbelief is and specially throwing it away after u been blessed with faith.

Now this is all I can understand from Holy Quran but then its so different from ur understanding is it not? That�s why u need to follow basic sets of rules to understand Holy Quran, one of the rules of explanation is there is no contradiction within Holy Quran so to help us with matters we have Sahih Ahadith, now when u put Ahadith and Sunnah into matters u need to understand that same rule is here as well, there is no contradiction between Holy Quran and Ahadith and Sunnah as there is very famous saying of Ayeshah (ra) that when someone asked her about character of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) she said �it is that of Quran�

These are ahadith from famous collections

1. Any person (i.e., Muslim) who has changed his religion, kill him (agreed upon)
2. Abdullah ibn Masud reports: The Messenger of God stated: In no way is it permitted to shed the blood of a Muslim who testifies that "there is no god except God" and "I am the Apostle of God" except for three crimes: a. he has killed someone and his act merits retaliation; b. he is married and commits adultery; c. he abandons his religion and is separated from the community.  Sahih al-bukhari
3. Aisha reports:The Messenger of God stated that it is unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim other than for the following reasons: a. although married, he commits adultery or b. after being a Muslim he chooses kufr, or c. he takes someone's life. Sahih al-bukhari
4. Uthman reports:I heard the Messenger of God saying that it is unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except in three situations: a. a person who, being a Muslim, becomes a kafir; b. one who after marriage commits adultery; c. one who commits murder apart from having an authorization to take life in exchange for another life.  Nasa�i

Abu Musa Ashari reports: The Prophet appointed and sent him (Abu Musa) as governor of Yemen. Then later he sent Muadh ibn Jabal as his assistant. When Muadh arrived there, he announced: People, I am sent by the Messenger of God for you. Abu Musa placed a cushion for him to be comfortably seated.  Meanwhile a person was presented who previously had been a Jew, then was a Muslim and then became a Jew. Muadh said: I will not sit unless this person is executed. This is the judgement of God and His Messenger. Muadh repeated the statement three times. Finally, when he was killed, Muadh sat.

When Mecca was conquered, Abdullah ibn Sad ibn Abi Sarh took refuge with Uthman ibn Affan. Uthman took him and they presented themselves to the Prophet, requesting: O Messenger of God, accept the allegiance of Abdullah. The Prophet lifted his head, looked in his direction and remained silent. This happened three times and he (the Prophet) only looked in his direction. Finally after three times he accepted his allegiance. Then he turned towards his Companions and said: Was there no worthy man among you who, when he saw me withholding my hand from accepting his allegiance, would step forward and kill this person? The people replied: O Messenger of God, we did not know your wish. Why did you not signal with your eyes? To this the Prophet replied: It is unbecoming of a Prophet to glance in a stealthy manner (both incidents could be found in any major seerah book)

These are incidents from time of Umar and Uthman (ra)

Abdullah ibn Masud was informed that in one of the mosques of the Banu Hanifah some people were testifying that Musaylimah was a messenger of God. Hearing this, Abdullah sent police to arrest and bring them. When they were brought before him, they all repented and promised never to do it again. Abdullah let all of them go except one, Abdullah ibn al-Nawahah, whom he punished by death. The people said: How is it that you have given two conflicting verdicts in the same case? Abdullah replied that Ibn al-Nawahah was the very man who has been sent by Musaylimah as an ambassador to the Prophet (Muhammad). I was present at that time. Another man, Hajar ibn Wathal, was also with him as a partner in this diplomatic mission. Muhammad asked both of them: Do you bear witness that I am the Messenger of God? They both responded by asking: Do you bear witness that Musaylimah is the Messenger of God? Hearing that, Muhammad replied: If it were permitted to execute the delegates of a political mission, I would execute you both. After relating this event, Abdullah said: For this reason I punished Ibn al-Nawahah by death.  It is clear that this event occurred during the time of Umar when Abdullah ibn Masud was chief judge of Kufah under him.

Some men who were spreading the claim of Musaylimah were captured in Kufah. Uthman was informed in writing about it. He wrote in response that the true religion (din-i haqq) and the confession: "There is no god except God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God", should be presented before them. Whoever accepts it and reveals his rejection of Musaylimah should be released. Whoever upholds the religion of Musaylimah should be executed (both incidents in Tahawi)

Now this is from Muwatta Imam Malik

From Zayd ibn Aslam, Malik has reported that the Apostle of God declared: Whoever changes his religion should be executed. Malik said about this tradition: As far as we can understand this command of the prophet means that the person who leaves Islam to follow another way, but conceals his kufr and continues to manifest Islamic belief, as is the pattern of the Zindiqs and others like them, should be executed after his guilt has been established. He should not be asked to repent because the repentance of such persons cannot be trusted. But the person who has left Islam and publicly chooses to follow another way should be requested to repent. If he repents, good. Otherwise, he should be executed

Now it is a known factor that all Prophets are immuned from sins and errors against Allah�s law so if this particular Ayah which every one loves to mention in this case would have implied in this particular ruling then there was no chance of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) saying or doing anything against it.  People of knowledge explain the reason that why Allah swt gave his name of Rahim to Sayyidina Muhammad (saw), is due to the fact that people of his Ummah who don�t embrace islam still get to live and enjoy the pleasures of this life unlike previous generations who were punished straight away, Im sure u are aware of what happened to Bani Israel when they worshipped calf after Musa (as) went to mount toor, the guilty ones were killed by their brethren even though they realized that they had done wrong and wanted to repent and Allah told Musa (as) that there repentance was willingly agreeing to die from the hands of muslims, now what do u think about a person who has forsaken his deen and has no sense of shame or repentance?

Twice before this topic was brought up and I kept silent cos I don�t have enuf knowledge or ability to explain it and another reason cos no muslims were involved, this time I spoke cos I felt us muslims should go beyond �my intelligence tells me or I think� n know what happened in the times which we should keep as role model, I don�t want to have debate on this matter due to inadequacy of my knowledge and intelligence, Alhamdulillah I always want to follow the hadith in which Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) said that Faith of a believer is never complete until he likes for his muslim brother what he likes for himself.  So if you still think those ahadith are not strong then may Allah swt guide me and every one to his path  ameen

Wassalam

Assalamu Alaikum Sister Fatima:

Do you not agree that when Allah(SWT) wants us to know something it is made clear? Many times in the Quran it states this. This is what the Quran states about apostasy:

These Ayats clearly show that men may turn form Islam and turn back again, in some cases numerous times. If they are dead how can this be? They also clearly show that the punishment for turning from Islam is from Allah(SWT), no where in the Quran does it state the punishment for turning from Islam is death.

If Allah had ordered the Prophet(PBUH) to kill all apostates, then the Prophet would have been duty bound to kill them all. It would not have been a thing left to question or to the Prophet's discretion. Yet even in the case of Abdallah ibn Sad, the Prophet allowed him to live. If it was the will of Allah(SWT) that apostates must be put to death, then how could the Prophet allow him to live? Once again, this clearly proves that some apostates were killed and some were not, so there are criteria for their death other than just apostasy.

We know that once a punishment was prescribed by Allah, the Prophet would endorse that punishment:

 'A'isha reported that the Quraish had been anxious about the Makhzumi woman who had committed theft, and said: Who will speak to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about her? They said: Who dare it, but Usama, the loved one of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ? So Usama spoke to him. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do you intercede regarding one of the punishments prescribed by Allah? He then stood up and addressed (people) saying: O people, those who have gone before you were destroyed, because if any one of high rank committed theft amongst them, they spared him; and it anyone of low rank committed theft, they inflicted the prescribed punishment upon him. By Allah, if Fatima, daughter of Muhammad, were to steal, I would have her hand cut off. In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Rumh (the words are): "Verily those before you perished."

There is nothing in the Quran that prescribes death as a punishment for apostasy, in fact the Quran states that men may turn back from apostasy and be forgiven. The Prophet allowed some apostates to live and some were killed, yet we know that this was not based on their status or wealth so there MUST have been other criteria that was followed in putting them to death other than apostasy alone.

Sis Fatima, no excuse of ahadith can play a role when they are found totally against the basic principles of Quran, especially in the case of hadud laws, where usually the apostasy is put in by some traditional scholars. The very basic requirement of "hadud" laws are "only from Quran". Here is an excellent article on the issue of apostasy in Islam by Louay Safi, along with its comments upon the ahadith that you also quoted. http://lsinsight.org/articles/Current/Apostasy.htm - http://lsinsight.org/articles/Current/Apostasy.htm

Hopefully this shall suffice for any logical mind.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

JazakAllah khair bro, my intention was only to put forward common practice druing the time of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) (with exception of time of conquer of Makkah) and rightly guided caliphs (ra) and the only viewpoint of major Imams, for me our early scholars have more credibility so all i can say is Allah swt forgives everything other than shirk and we are responsible for our own belief system and deeds, as long as our intentions are for sake of Allah swt then khair inshaAllah

wassalam

Yes, Muhammad did forgive many who turned away from Islam and then returned. But ONLY if they returned within the grace period. If they did not, he either had them put to death or slayed them himself.

It is beyond me why you people keep denying this thing. From Suadi Arabia to Egypt to Turkey, Afganistan and Malaysia, the Imams and the Koranic scholars not only admit that any apostate deserves to be put to death, but they raise a ruckus in the newspapers when such action is not carried out by their government.

The Moderator of one of these groups insisted that those who acted and/or spoke in such a manner were not true Muslims. That the actions of these people were against the Koran. How then can it be that entire nations based on Shariah Law can belong to the same religion? It doesn't make any sense.

I would truly like to believe that the Muslims in this country are of a different reliigion than those tens of thousands in other lands, but I have seen little of any practical signs in that regard.

Art Scholbe, FArmington, MO

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

im sure this thing has capacity to go on forever, as one side will say it did happen only ...... the other side will be bring the proof and then some1 might say Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) gave exceptions due to this this this n no one after him did, then it will be, bring proof,

honestly speaking dont u think topic is too bigger for us lot, i dont thik anything is going to com out of it so why not spend ur time in learning an ayah or hadith r doing somethin solely for sake of Allah swt n makin better use of ur time inshaAllah

wassalam

I think I should bring what I have.

artscholbe wrote: Yes, Muhammad did forgive many who turned away from Islam and then returned. But ONLY if they returned within the grace period. If they did not, he either had them put to death or slayed them himself. It is beyond me why you people keep denying this thing. From Suadi Arabia to Egypt to Turkey, Afganistan and Malaysia, the Imams and the Koranic scholars not only admit that any apostate deserves to be put to death, but they raise a ruckus in the newspapers when such action is not carried out by their government. The Moderator of one of these groups insisted that those who acted and/or spoke in such a manner were not true Muslims. That the actions of these people were against the Koran. How then can it be that entire nations based on Shariah Law can belong to the same religion? It doesn't make any sense. I would truly like to believe that the Muslims in this country are of a different reliigion than those tens of thousands in other lands, but I have seen little of any practical signs in that regard. Art Scholbe, FArmington, MO

This is simply not true. At the time of the Prophet(PBUH), some apostates were killed, others were not. Clearly apostasy was not the only criteria for their death.

There is nothing in the Quran that condemns apostates to death on this earth, rather it states quite clearly that those who turn from Allah(SWT) will be punished by Allah(SWT). It also states in the Quran that Allah(SWT) does not punish us twice for the same sin, so if apostates are to be punished by Allah(SWT), then ordering them to be put to death by men would be a double punishment.

If there are governments that are putting apostates to death based solely on apostasy then they are not following the Quran. Why are they doing this, who knows? In the New Testament it says to turn the other cheek and no longer follow the law of an eye for an eye, yet the Evangelical Christian president of the United States, who says he talks to God and vice-versa, and his Administration, falsified information to start a pre-emptive war, which has killed thousands of innocent Americans and Iraqis. Why? The Jews have herded an entire population into refugee camps and taken away their human rights, the Torah or the Talmud do not allow such things, yet the Israelis have done this because they say God gave them the land 3000 years ago. Why? How can it be that these Christians and Jews belong to the same religion that follow the teachings they are clearly going against?

Perhaps men have lost the ability to show mercy to each other. Their hearts have hardened to such an extent that they know longer follow the true path of God. There is no truly Islamic government and will not be until the time of the Mahdi, just as there is no truly Christian government, nor truly Judaic government. Men are flawed and their laws are flawed. Only the Laws of God are perfect, but flawed men have been left to follow them.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

im not trying to brush this matter under the carpet, only thing which i was trying to do was to say it to muslim brothers and sisters, not to go so far in battle of 'im right and u r wrong' and say about ur Lord or His ruling something which we have no full comprehension of. 

Brother alhamdulillah Allah swt has made Holy Quran easy to understand but for people of knowledge, Ibn Abbas (ra) was best in the understanding of Holy Quran among all sahaba (ra), it is related from him that he was among few people who knew the number of ashabe kahaf and he was the among very few if not the only person who could understand what Allah swt meant when Surah Nasr was revealed, the rest of Sahaba (ra) used to ask him even though he was a kid in comparison to them and they knew bout the dealing and ruling of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) more than him. those people used to ask and tell each other about each and every single thing Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) said, did or approved of by keeping quiet, but yet they had to ask Ibn Abbas or other sahaba (ra) for clarification of Holy Quran, Now brother if u r any1 in this forum could say to me that u know about every major book of ahadith (im not saying u know every single hadith), u have full knowledge of what was said when and where by Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) and how strong the chain of narrations is, then may Allah swt grant u best place with Himself and im sorry

but if u telling me that there is a bigger scholar in this day n age than Iman Hanifa, Imam Shafi'i, Imam Malik and Imam Ahmed or any other major imam then thats ur matter I dont believe that bcos even Holy Quran mentions that those who are Muqarrabin of Allah swt are mostly from first generation, there are plenty of ahadith about this matter but im sad to say people start doubting their authenticity the minute it dont suite them, Imam Malik neva use to say anything bout a saying which was related to him and it did not meet his criteria for being a hadith as he used to say what am i going to say to Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) on Day of Judgement and how am i going to face him (saw) if I said about his words that they are not his only bcos i did not have enuf mind to have full comprehension. there is another hadith which mention Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) saying follow Abubakr and Umar (ra) after me, Abubakr (ra) waged a war against apostates and in the time of Umar (ra) about whom it is said that Allah swt had given him quality of being a best Judge, u cant find any single case with a different judgement.  Allah swt gave exceptions to Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) in many case due to nature his mission but find me a single example from time of rightly guided caliphs or few 100 years after that.

now the matter of abrogation, brother Allah swt mentions it in Holy Quran himself that He makes rule and He has authority to abrogate them, see verses for changing the direction of Qiblah, jews believe that when some thing is revealed, thats it and no change and dont believe in abrogation so please dont fall in that

May Allah swt guide us al to right path and help us attain his pleasure. ameen

wassalam

Sorry to say this... Im not Muslim and Im not Christian....

But how did a Afghan. Man convert to Christianity?

Are there Christians in Afghan trying to convert Muslims?

As a Buddhist it makes my stomach sick to hear a Christian try and convert someone. I don�t get angry but it sure does disgust me. I would rather clean the beds of dead people rather than listen to a Christian preach the Bible.

I think life should be like a hug from your Mother. If everyone was this kind then we would have world peace.

I think regardless of how good we think one religion is over another, the best way to live life is with Compassion and Kindness.

If the actions of the Christians who converted this poor Afghan man get this man killed then the Christians should receive judgment from their God or higher being.

Of course I also disagree with killing a man for converting!! That is total crazy logic. Let his maker be the judge not man.

Peace :-)

forestcall, that afghan man who got converted was mentally ill according to his family members.

salman wrote: forestcall, that afghan man who got converted was mentally ill according to his family members.

And its probably what they want to believe as it is easier to live with, if not then its the way to keep the person alive.

I am sure the guy is prefectly sane.

Fatima wrote: im not trying to brush this matter under the carpet, only thing which i was trying to do was to say it to muslim brothers and sisters, not to go so far in battle of 'im right and u r wrong' and say about ur Lord or His ruling something which we have no full comprehension of.

My dear sis, kindly note the difference between �trying to understand logically� and �obey without understanding�. I think, I prefer to be in the first category than in the later one. That is the total purpose of this discussion and not �battle of 'im right and u r wrong' � 

Fatima wrote: Brother alhamdulillah Allah swt has made Holy Quran easy to understand but for people of knowledge, Ibn Abbas (ra) was best in the understanding of Holy Quran among all sahaba (ra), it is related from him that he was among few people who knew the number of ashabe kahaf and he was the among very few if not the only person who could understand what Allah swt meant when Surah Nasr was revealed, the rest of Sahaba (ra) used to ask him even though he was a kid in comparison to them and they knew bout the dealing and ruling of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) more than him. those people used to ask and tell each other about each and every single thing Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) said, did or approved of by keeping quiet, but yet they had to ask Ibn Abbas or other sahaba (ra) for clarification of Holy Quran, Now brother if u r any1 in this forum could say to me that u know about every major book of ahadith (im not saying u know every single hadith), u have full knowledge of what was said when and where by Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) and how strong the chain of narrations is, then may Allah swt grant u best place with Himself and im sorry but if u telling me that there is a bigger scholar in this day n age than Iman Hanifa, Imam Shafi'i, Imam Malik and Imam Ahmed or any other major imam then thats ur matter I dont believe that bcos even Holy Quran mentions that those who are Muqarrabin of Allah swt are mostly from first generation,��.

First of, sis it would be highly appreciated if you can break down your comments in small understandable sentences than continuing in one. No offence intended. Now as far as your allusion to the scholarship of the all Ashab is concerned, kindly note that this is not under discussion at all. No one is doubting their capabilities at all. However, one must not forget that even these Ashab, never presented anything without evidence in the form of Quran or Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad. So, for example, if Hz. Ibn Abbass brings in the �number of ashabe Kahaf� without quoting any of these two sources (which I doubt), there is little reason to believe in him, whatever the level of scholarship he might have possessed other wise. I hope this is quite logical to understand. Isn�t it? So simple virtue of being from earliest generation is that they had the first hand knowledge about the authentic source of information. If they don�t present, or someone on their behalf don�t present, that knowledge as how did they arrive at certain decision, there is little reason to rely on their testimonies. This is not to undermine their status, but to realize that such testimonies, attributed towards them, might well have been contorted by others through the passage of time in centuries. So every such testimony needs to evaluated, irrespective who is the initiator of it, based upon the above mentioned sources in Islam. 

Fatima wrote: there are plenty of ahadith about this matter but im sad to say people start doubting their authenticity the minute it dont suite them,�..

Fatima wrote: Imam Malik neva use to say anything bout a saying which was related to him and it did not meet his criteria for being a hadith as he used to say what am i going to say to Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) on Day of Judgement and how am i going to face him (saw) if I said about his words that they are not his only bcos i did not have enuf mind to have full comprehension. there is another hadith which mention Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) saying follow Abubakr and Umar (ra) after me,

Fatima wrote: Abubakr (ra) waged a war against apostates and in the time of Umar (ra) about whom it is said that Allah swt had given him quality of being a best Judge, u cant find any single case with a different judgement.  Allah swt gave exceptions to Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) in many case due to nature his mission but find me a single example from time of rightly guided caliphs or few 100 years after that.

Fatima wrote: now the matter of abrogation, brother Allah swt mentions it in Holy Quran himself that He makes rule and He has authority to abrogate them, see verses for changing the direction of Qiblah, jews believe that when some thing is revealed, thats it and no change and dont believe in abrogation so please dont fall in that May Allah swt guide us al to right path and help us attain his pleasure. ameen Wassalam

Actually, he converted 16 years ago while working for a Christian Relief organization according to an article by the Associated Press during the crisis.  He later moved to Germany and lived their for 10 years, returning to Afganistan to obtain custody of his two daughters.  That's when his inlaws turned him in for apostacy.

In the end, it was a custody battle. 

Let me see if I can find more...

Afghan court dismisses case against Christian convert, officials say

By DANIEL COONEY

The Associated Press

KABUL, Afghanistan � An Afghan court on Sunday dismissed a case against a man who converted from Islam to Christianity because of a lack of evidence and he will be released soon, officials said.

The announcement came as U.S.-backed President Hamid Karzai faced mounting foreign pressure to free Abdul Rahman, a move that risked angering Muslim clerics here who have called for him to be killed.

An official closely involved with the case told The Associated Press that it had been returned to the prosecutors for more investigation, but that in the meantime, Rahman would be released.

"The court dismissed today the case against Abdul Rahman for a lack of information and a lot of legal gaps in the case," the official said Sunday, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter.

"The decision about his release will be taken possibly tomorrow," the official added. "They don't have to keep him in jail while the attorney general is looking into the case."

Abdul Wakil Omeri, a spokesman for the Supreme Court, confirmed that the case had been dismissed because of "problems with the prosecutors' evidence."

He said several of Rahman's family members have testified that the 41-year-old has mental problems. "It is the job of the attorney general's office to decide if he is mentally fit to stand trial," he told AP.

A Western diplomat, also declining to be identified because of the sensitivity of the case, said questions were being raised as to whether Rahman would stay in Afghanistan or go into exile in a foreign country.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said she could not confirm that an Afghan court had dismissed the case and stressed the U.S. needs to respect the sovereignty of Afghanistan, which she called a "young democracy."

"We have our history of conflicts that had to be worked out after a new constitution. And so the Afghans are working on it. But America has stood solidly for religious freedom as a bedrock, the bedrock, of democracy, and we'll see." Rice said Sunday on NBC's Meet the Press.

Asked if American Christian missionaries should be encouraged to go to Afghanistan, Rice said: "I think that Afghans are pleased to get the help that they can get" but added "we need to be respectful of Afghan sovereignty."

Rahman has been prosecuted under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for converting 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He was arrested last month and charged with apostasy.

Muslim clerics had threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if the government freed him. They said he clearly violated Islamic Shariah law by rejecting Islam.

The case against Rahman put Karzai in an awkward position.

While the U.S., Britain and other countries that prop up his government have demanded the trial be dropped, Karzai has had to be careful not to offend Islamic sensibilities at home and alienate religious conservatives who wield considerable power.

Rahman had been held at a detention facility in central Kabul since his arrest, but he was moved to the notorious Policharki Prison just outside Kabul on Friday after threats were made against him by other inmates, prison warden Gen. Shahmir Amirpur told AP.

Policharki is a high-security prison housing some 2,000 inmates, including about 350 Taliban and al Qaeda militants who were blamed for inciting a riot there late last month that killed six people.

"We are watching him constantly. This is a very sensitive case so he needs high security," Amirpur said in an interview in his office in a crumbling building inside the jail.

Rahman is being held in a cell by himself next to the office of a senior prison guard, the warden said. He showed the AP the outside of Rahman's cell door, but refused to allow reporters to speak to him or see him.

He said Rahman had been asking guards for a Bible but that they did not have any to give him.

Rahman, meanwhile, said he was fully aware of his choice and was ready to die for it, according to an interview published Sunday in Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

"I am serene. I have full awareness of what I have chosen. If I must die, I will die," Abdul Rahman told the Rome daily, responding to questions sent to him via a human rights worker who visited him in prison.

"Somebody, a long time ago, did it for all of us," he added in a clear reference to Jesus.

Rahman also told the Italian newspaper that his family � including his ex-wife and teenage daughters � reported him to the authorities three weeks ago.

He said he made his choice to become a Christian "in small steps," after he left Afghanistan 16 years ago. He moved to Pakistan, then Germany. He tried to get a visa in Belgium.

"In Peshawar I worked for a humanitarian organization. They were Catholics," Rahman said. "I started talking to them about religion, I read the Bible, it opened my heart and my mind."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/world/14192635.htm - http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/world/14192635.htm

I could not find the name of the organization.  Could be Catholic Charities, could be another group?

Ok! Now as far as I understood from this narration is that Mr. Rahman converted to Christianity while working for the Christian relief organization in Pakistan for Afghan refugees 16 years ago before leaving Afghanistan. Hence his conversion took place, according to him, in Pakistan. Then he moved to Germany as a Christian and not as Muslim. Am I correct to understand as opposed to what Bro DavidC is trying to say?

It seems to corroborate my ideas that these Christian organizations are doing great relief work on one hand, and playing with the sensitivities of the people on the other hand. Though their relief doesn't seem to be conditional, I must admit, but people do get mislead when they are in miseries, especially when distorted facts and figures are presented to them.

Ahmad,

Would you rather they didn't help at all????  I'm sure the Muslim community will step up and take over in the charitable work.  And they aren't allowed to talk about what they believe?  If I'm a Christian, I'll will say I'm Christian.  He worked very closely with these people.  I'm sure he had many late night conversations with these people.  Does that mean he was targetted for conversion?  That's entirely possible...its also entirely possible he got curious and decided on his own.  How many reverts to Islam start that way?  So, you'll blame one mans concisious choice on a greater conspiracy.  Cute.

AK wrote:

This is the major reason that Saudi Arabia dosnt allow these type of groups on their soil. Who wouldnt protect their citizens against explotitaion and misinformation.

AK, I'm sure the Saudi government are more than capable of exploiting and misinforming their citizens without any outside help....

Colin wrote: AK wrote: This is the major reason that Saudi Arabia dosnt allow these type of groups on their soil. Who wouldnt protect their citizens against explotitaion and misinformation. AK, I'm sure the Saudi government are more than capable of exploiting and misinforming their citizens without any outside help....

what r u trying 2 say colin? can u make ur point clear?

Colin wrote: Sorry Salman, I meant to say that the Saudi government is a model of caring and transparent modern leadership.

now thats good colin. that is what i expected !

I understand the price of converstion to a faith outside the accepted norms.  I get sick of hearing my extended family ask if my husband is going to take another wife.  I'm just saying.  I've heard the same song and dance from Muslims calling me to Islam. 

Come to the True Faith, leave your husband, don't worry about your family's opinion.  Allah will reward you for your sacrifices and everything will be better. 

Whether calling someone to Islam or witnessing to them.  A person is always going to paint a picture of how it will be better.  Many actually believe it will be better for these people (naive, but the truth).  Missionaries by nature are idealistic.  It doesn't make them evil....just means sometimes they are looking through rose colored glasses. 

Just like this man faced hardship after his conversion, many have faced hardship.  I feel its irresponsible to act as a missionary in an area where someone converting could get them killed.  His death would have been just as much the missionaries fault as the Mullah's calling for his execution.  On the other hand, I also don't think there should be a situation where people are unable to learn about other things and make an informed opinion.  I'm not saying let in the missionaries....just don't stifle free thought.

It would be interesting to have Christians go to places like Saudi Arabia.. with all its wealth it might be hard to use goods / resources as an enticement....

As I watched a show recently of people traveling around the world, most had not ever traveled to the Middle East. They went to Muscat in Oman. This woman was like " People  (back in the states) think they are rich, they have no idea how really rich people are over here."

This was driving seeing all these fancy palaces and seeing an incredible McDonalds..  

Sis Hayfa, do you intend to say there are no miseries in Saudi Arabia? What about the 'Dhimmies' and their miserable storis of rape and forced labor etc? Sure, these missionaries are quite capable of doing what they think is right. Don't under estimate them. Nevertheless, if they don't voilate the law of the land, there shouldn't be any ban on them, per say.

Bismillah,

What is a dhimmy?

Well, sis I am not very good at defining the terms nor of their very origin or their misusage etc. Now a days, broadly speaking, this term is being applied to all people who are non-citizens of the Kingdom. Hence, they can't work in the kingdom untill or unless they have some sort of care taker from among the citizens. Hence a source of exploitation of poor people from third world country and all other associated evils in that society.

As Salam Alaikum,

We must love and help our brothers and sisters in Islam so that no Muslim or Muslima leaves Islam for another Din.  Islam is Al-Haqq from Ar-Rabbil alamin and no other Din will be accepted on Yomo Qiyama except Islam.

Allah says in Al Qur'an Al Karim that the person who knows the truth (Islam) and turns away from it is of the worst of people and enemy to Islam unless they come back to the straight way.

Here's my non professional opinion.  If the people around you are practicing their deen well, with no hypocrisy and no corruption.  Then there will be no desire to convert to another faith.  If Muslims are worried/concerned about other Muslims being drawn away from the fold.  Perhaps they should take a serious look at why these people would want to leave.  This man grew up in Afghanistan....its been stated many times on here there are problems there with the implementation of the deen.  His conversion could have been more to social issues than religious ones. 

may be the man in afghanistan who got converted was tortured by some of the non muslims and was forced to convert to another religion. this is wat i think. but even if he was tortured and forced to convert, he should have stood firm on his faith, but it did not happened so. he is among the losers.

Allah has mentioned in the Qur'an that whom Allah leads astray none can guide him to the straight path and whom Allah guides to the straight path none can lead him astray.

Well that is too simplistic a proposal. I don't buy it, bro Salman.

nobody knows the exact truth of his conversion bro ahmadjoyia. others are also putting their proposals regarding as to why he converted. so this one of my proposals as i think as 2 y he may have converted. the truth Allah (alone) knows.

may be the man in afghanistan who got converted was tortured by some of the non muslims and was forced to convert to another religion. this is wat i think. but even if he was tortured and forced to convert, he should have stood firm on his faith, but it did not happened so. he is among the losers.

Allah has mentioned in the Qur'an that whom Allah leads astray none can guide him to the straight path and whom Allah guides to the straight path none can lead him astray.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Well that is too simplistic a proposal. I don't buy it, bro Salman.

Ahmad, how could you possibly accuse Mr Salman of being too simplistic?

superme wrote: I think Salman is one of the finest Indian muslim I have come across. Good on you bro, march on.

I think Salman is one of the only Indian muslims I have come across. Good on you bro, march on.

;---)

Bismillah,

Angela wrote: Here's my non professional opinion.  If the people around you are practicing their deen well, with no hypocrisy and no corruption.  Then there will be no desire to convert to another faith.  If Muslims are worried/concerned about other Muslims being drawn away from the fold.  Perhaps they should take a serious look at why these people would want to leave.  This man grew up in Afghanistan....its been stated many times on here there are problems there with the implementation of the deen.  His conversion could have been more to social issues than religious ones.  I agree with you, Sister Angela.  Our faith is beautiful and well-rounded and the religious guidelines are easy to follow and beneficial to our lives.  The forgiveness and mercy of our Loving Lord is boundless, so of course, anyone leaving it must not have felt that because of social pressures.  Mercy WAS there, but I can understand a person being under such tremendous social difficulties and believing that their faith is devoid of mercy, when in reality, it was just the judgmental social atmosphere he grew up in.  Allahu 'alam.  Maybe he will change his mind, but he surely can't if people around him are saying:  Kill him!

Bismillah,

may be the man in afghanistan who got converted was tortured by some of the non muslims

Dear Brother Salman,

This is a possibility, okay, but not probable.  Why?  Because the smart thing to do, which has been pointed out here, is to give starving people food and a lonely soul comfort to gain its allegiance.

Torture and fear are implemented, obviously, in this world against humans to cause us to comply; but people know that if they use the same tool repeatedly, it loses its effectiveness.  May Allah, SWT, punish -- in this world and the next -- all those who torture others.

If he had been tortured into conversion, his faith in Christianity would have been weak, he would have cracked and reverted to Islam when faced with death.  There are circumstances in this mans life that lead him to rethink the way he looked at life.  Perhaps his divorce, lack of work....the Taliban.  He was Afghani.  Perhaps he was appaulled by the whole way his fellow Afghanis were being treated by men claiming to represent Islam.  90% of Afghanis are illiterate and have never read the Quran for themselves.  They are poor, hungry and have suffered for 20+ years at the hands of foreign powers and internal struggles.  I don't know about you, but if I watched women locked up in their homes and religious police terrorizing my people.  I'd rethink my religious affiliation.  Perhaps its more that he didn't have good Muslim rolemodels to follow.  Instead, he watched Christian aid workers doing what they could to ease the suffering going on in the camps. 

Here's my counter theory, he read this passage.

1 Corinthians 13

 1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I really think the Muslims of the world need to focus on education there, Arabic and Islamic schools for boys and for girls.  Education will change everything.

Angela wrote: Here's my counter theory, he read this passage

Sis Angela, can you come down a little bit on our level as eulogy of Paul is too high, for me at least, to understand what's your theory is? Thanks.

My theory is 16 years ago, Afghanistan was a hotbed of misery.  Who was there trying to help?????  Rahman was probably seeing alot of horrible things in the name of Islam and he was seeing these aid workers living their gospel.  My counter theory is he wasn't tortured and coerced into converting.  He saw people with true Faith, Love and Charity, living Christ's teachings.  He was not converted over a distortion, but a sense of faith he saw in others.  Now, that's my theory.....it holds about as much weight as the "EVIL" Catholics beat him with a rubber hose until he agreed to be baptized.