In the discontinued topic, you made the following remarks

"What was that "same message" of God? 

The Qur'an may not include the thoughts of men but the Hadeeths do and the Hadith is very important in Islam.  Two of the five prayers come from the Hadiths."

The same message of God was "Thou shall worship only the One Lord God". This message was passed down to all prophets by God.

Hadith is important in Islam but Quran stands before Hadith. hadith is secondary.

You have been misinformed that two of the five daily prayers come from Hadith. It is not correct. Prayers do not come from Hadith. All the five prayers are commanded in Quran.

Please correct yourself on these points.

The Quran corrected the fallacies that man had brought into religion.

By the time of the revelation of the Quran, men had made the Prophet Jesus into not only the son of God, but an incarnation of God and were praying to him and idols again.

Mishmish wrote: The Quran corrected the fallacies that man had brought into religion. By the time of the revelation of the Quran, men had made the Prophet Jesus into not only the son of God, but an incarnation of God and were praying to him and idols again.

The title "son of God" is another title for the Messiah and so is "the son of man."

The Qur'an does not seem to understand incarnation.  Look at the Old Testament's use of theophanies and you will understand the incarnation--God's Holy Word made flesh.  Christians do not worship God's creation.  Jesus was worshipped and he never corrected anyone who worshipped him.  Christians worship the God within or the God incarnated into Jesus.

Christians have never worshipped idols.

The Qur'an does not seem to understand the term "son of God" in any capacity.  The Qur'an says that Allah has no son.  Look at the Old Testament.  The God of the OT says that he has sons.

Also, what complaint does the Qur'an have against all Jews?  The Jews did not worship Jesus.  What message does the Qur'an have for them?

Christians pray to Jesus or in the name of Jesus. Jesus is not God.

Muslims believe that there is only ONE God and there can be no incarnation of God or trilogy of God as one. There is only one God.

The Old testament also says:

I am the Lord your God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Yet everyday Christians pray to Jesus. The very definition of monotheism is that there is a SINGLE DEITY, not a father and son or a trinity.

Katherine, do you believe that the Holy Spirit went into Mary, as the New Testament teaches, and that the Holy Spirit is part of the trinity that makes God?

I understand that the Bible uses the phrases "my children", "heavenly Father", etc... figuratively. But, most Christians do believe that Jesus is the literal son of God, and part of the trinity of God, therefore God. I know, I used to be a Christian.

To most Muslims this is the same as idol worshipping, as praying to any entity other than the one God is worshipping an idol. Even if you believe this entity is the son of God, or part of a trinity that makes God whole.

See, to us, God cannot be part of less than He is. The trinity makes absolutely no sense. God is God, there is only one God. It's just that simple.

Islam's message to the Jews is the same as it is to all of mankind. There is only one God, the God of Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and all of the Prophets and Messengers.

Mishmish wrote: Christians pray to Jesus or in the name of Jesus. Jesus is not God. Muslims believe that there is only ONE God and there can be no incarnation of God or trilogy of God as one. There is only one God. The Old testament also says: I am the Lord your God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Yet everyday Christians pray to Jesus. The very definition of monotheism is that there is a SINGLE DEITY, not a father and son or a trinity.

Christians believe in a single deity--one being--one God.  Christians have no other God before the one and only God, Yahweh.  It is obvious from your comments that you do not understand what Christians believe and I don't wonder that you don't since the Qur'an does not explain what the Christians believe.  Think One God, one Being.  Then think that this One God relates to us in three ways.  It is all about relationship.

Listen to what Jesus said in Luke 12:11-12, 11 �Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. 12 For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.�

Notice that Jesus does not say that God will teach but the Holy Spirit will teach.  This is the Holy Spirit of the One and Only God.

Greetings, Katherine.

You asked

"Could you please quote the ayas in the Qur'an noting the 5 prayers for me?  Thank you."

Answer: Verse 130 Surah 20 Taaha confirms the 5 prayers.

Do you want me to explain that?

In response to my comment, "The same message of God was "Thou shall worship only the One Lord God". This message was passed down to all prophets by God.",

you wrote "Then the Qur'an brought nothing new."

The answer is yes. Quran did not bring any new fables or tales. It just spoke the message of God which is always the same. Quran did not bring any new doctrine or entangled unexplainable ideas.

By the way, Muslims also do NOT believe that any sex was involved in the making of Jesus.

A question:Did Jesus ever teach Trinity or explain the so-called triune nature of One God?

The answer: No, he did not!!!

Katherine:

All you have to do is Google: is Jesus the son of God, to see just how many Christian denominations not only believe that Jesus is the literal son of God, but also God manifest in human form.

The Bible says in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Katherine,

I would like to say something in response to your comments:

From you: "The title "son of God" is another title for the Messiah and so is "the son of man."

Yes, that is the Christian understanding but that applies to all others in the Jewish Tanakh and the OT. It's just figurative.

From you:"The Qur'an does not seem to understand incarnation."

Qur'aan does not even talk or discuss about incarnation at all. Thus Qur'aan is exempt from understanding that concept. if you read the New Testament very carefully, Jesus NEVER taught incarnation AT ALL and he never mentioned that he was God-Incarnate. This was taught by the people who argued, discussed and debated opinions and finally came up with the idea of incarnation.

Regarding the theophanies of OT, you may say that from a Christian's point of view but the Jews do not agree with any such theophanies, as they have none derived from the Jewish Tanakh. This is where the OT differs from the Jewish Tanakh (Jewish Bible). To them God is simply One God Almighty.

From you: "Also, what complaint does the Qur'an have against all Jews?  The Jews did not worship Jesus.  What message does the Qur'an have for them?"

Before I answer that, please read in the NT and tell us what complaints Jesus had against the Jews? Jesus' words and statements were all directed to the Jews. You can read that easily, e.g., "The Jews said this, the Jews did this and that and the Jews said that".

Qur'aan follows the same line of questioning to the Jews. Please read and see for yourself.

Best Regards

BMZ

ak_m_f wrote: Katherine wrote: You may think it is over-reacting, but I do not. You insult Christians. Christians do not believe that Jesus is the literal son of God by sex and never have. Where on earth did you get that idea? Nontrinitarian Christians have long contended that the doctrine of the Trinity is a prime example of Christian borrowing from pagan sources. According to this view, a simpler idea of God was lost very early in the history of the Church, through accommodation to pagan ideas, and the "incomprehensible" doctrine of the Trinity took its place. As evidence of this process, a comparison is often drawn between the Trinity and notions of a divine triad, found in pagan religions and Hinduism. Hinduism has a triad, i.e., Trimurti. As far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. After the death of the apostles, many nontrinitarians contend that these pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity. (First and second century Christian writings reflect a certain belief that Jesus was one with God the Father, but anti-Trinitarians contend it was at this point that the nature of the oneness evolved from pervasive coexistence to identity.) Some find a direct link between the doctrine of the Trinity, and the Egyptian theologians of Alexandria, for example. They suggest that Alexandrian theology, with its strong emphasis on the deity of Christ, was an intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity. The Church is charged with adopting these pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and adapted to Christian thinking by means of Greek philosophy. As evidence of this, critics of the doctrine point to the widely acknowledged synthesis of Christianity with platonic philosophy, which is evident in Trinitarian formulas that appeared by the end of the third century. Catholic doctrine became firmly rooted in the soil of Hellenism; and thus an essentially pagan idea was forcibly imposed on the churches beginning with the Constantinian period. At the same time, neo-Platonic trinities, such as that of the One, the Nous and the Soul, are not a trinity of consubstantial equals as in orthodox Christianity. Nontrinitarians assert that Catholics must have recognized the pagan roots of the trinity, because the allegation of borrowing was raised by some disputants during the time that the Nicene doctrine was being formalized and adopted by the bishops. For example, in the 4th century Catholic Bishop Marcellus of Ancyra's writings, On the Holy Church,9 : "Now with the heresy of the Ariomaniacs, which has corrupted the Church of God...These then teach three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. For he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he is discovered to have filched this from Hermes and Plato." (Source: Logan A. Marcellus of Ancyra (Pseudo-Anthimus), 'On the Holy Church': Text, Translation and Commentary. Verses 8-9. Journal of Theological Studies, NS, Volume 51, Pt. 1, April 2000, p.95 ). Such a late date for a key term of Nicene Christianity, and attributed to a Gnostic, they believe, lends credibility to the charge of pagan borrowing. Marcellus was rejected by the Catholic Church for teaching a form of Sabellianism. The early apologists, including Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Irenaeus, frequently discussed the parallels and contrasts between Christianity and the pagan and syncretic religions, and answered charges of borrowing from paganism in their apologetical writings

All kinds of people make all kinds of claims against Christianity and one of them is �borrowing from pagan sources� as you mentioned.  I am sure that you are familiar with all the claims against Islam and one of them is that Islam borrowed from paganism and from Jewish and Christian folklore.  I am sure that I don�t have to spell them all out for you.  What should concern either a Christian or a Muslims is not whether some people have made such claims against their religion, but rather, whether the claims are true. 

One of the claims against Christianity is that the virgin birth was borrowed from paganism.  As Josh McDowell said:

"Some have attempted to account for the virgin birth by tracing it to Greek or Babylonian mythology. They argue that the Gospel writers borrowed this story from the mythology of their day. This view does not fit the facts, for there is not any hero in pagan mythology for which a virgin birth is claimed, and moreover it would be unthinkable to the Jewish mind to construct such a story from mythology.

Many deities among Greeks, Babylonians-and Egyptians were reported born in an unusual manner, but for the most part these beings never actually existed. The accounts are filled with obvious mythological elements which are totally absent from the Gospel narratives. They are reports of a god or goddess being born into the world by sexual relations between some heavenly being and an earthly woman, or by some adulterous affair among the gods and goddesses."

In addition, it is very important that you do not limit yourself to what some claim to see as borrowing from paganism by comparing what you see as similarities, but that you also look at the dissimilarities.  The claim that Christianity borrowed from paganism seems to be the other way around. 

Please see this article, Doesn't the religion of Mithra prove that Christianity is false?:  http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm - http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm

Please look at the following religions compared to Christianity:

Hinduism:  http://www.greatcom.org/resources/areadydefense/ch24/default.htm - http://www.greatcom.org/resources/areadydefense/ch24/default .htm

Buddhism: http://www.greatcom.org/resources/areadydefense/ch25/default.htm - http://www.greatcom.org/resources/areadydefense/ch25/default .htm

You said: "Such a late date for a key term of Nicene Christianity, and attributed to a Gnostic, they believe, lends credibility to the charge of pagan borrowing."

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
     "O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
      "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
      "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
      "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For �the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
      "The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father �to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, �every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

See the rest of the article here:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinityquotes.htm - http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinityquotes.htm

The early apologists, including Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Irenaeus, frequently discussed the parallels and contrasts between Christianity and the pagan and syncretic religions, and answered charges of borrowing from paganism in their apologetical writings.

And, Muslim apologists are busy answering charges against Islam.  So what?

You might be interested in learning about the New Testament themes found in the OT:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/ot_nt_themes.htm - http://www.carm.org/doctrine/ot_nt_themes.htm

This verse does not mention the 5 prayers.  I could only find 3 prayers in the Qur'an.

Unless a person belongs to a small sect in islam which believe our religion is only based on the Quran you will clearly find that the 5 prayers in total are mentioned in the Quran and sunnah of the Prophet. His Sunnah is also a source for legislation in islam just like the Quran.

The term trinity did not come about until after Jesus died.  The term merely attempts to explain the concept. 

Thus this is an interpretation not something writen in stone, you then should say this is the understanding of certain verses in the bible according to such and such becouse certainly others at the time this was first introduced did not have such a beliefe or understanding, many of whom were actualy killed so this interpretation of the bible became prominant.

And then there were four books!

My point is that the Qur�an seems to teach that Christians believe that sex was involved in Jesus� birth.  Not so?

I dont know about literal sex but christians certainly use the word begotten and only have recently taken it out of translations after they went back to the oldest sources and found out the word "trinity" and "begotton" were inserted at a much later date, check refrencing of NIV bible which they explain why whole praragarphs had to be removed.

beget:

1 : to procreate as the father : http://www.webster.com/dictionary/sire -

it is the christians prefered word to articulate there beliefe and understanding.

Kathrine if you dont believe he was begoten then alhamdulillah you are above other christians who certainly claim this for Jesus.

DavidC

The Trinity has roots in Aristotle. As God is a being, he was to be
understood in the Aristotelian sense as having soul, presence, and will - the
components of all personalities as understood by Aristotle.

Why is his understanding the only authoritive one or the only one relied upon, Why cant he have been wrong in this respect. Did he specificly asrcibe devinity to jesus?

Jeera wrote: By the way, Muslims also do NOT believe that any sex was involved in the making of Jesus. My point is that the Qur�an seems to teach that Christians believe that sex was involved in Jesus� birth.  Not so?  If not, why do I continually run into Muslims who believe that Christians believe that Jesus is the literal son of God Almighty?

I don't think there is a Christian group out there that believes there was sex involved with the creation of Jesus.  That would kinda be pointless to the VIRGIN birth of Jesus. 

Jesus was conceived by the power of God.  He spoke and Jesus was.  This is the exact same concept as the Quran.

But, whereas the Muslims believe this makes Jesus completely fatherless, Christians believe this means God is his father.  Jesus referred to God as his father in the Bible. (not getting into a corrupted scripture debate, just pointing out Christian belief)

You cannot use the definition of Beget to explain this concept.  You would have to go to the Greek/Hebrew of the original bible, find the word used then and check its possible translations.  This is a problem most people don't understand about the Bible.  They argue wording and yet they argue the English word, not the original word put there.

How many times have I seen "infidel" a word derived from Latin in the place of Kafir?  It happens when you translate the Quran too.  So, defining one english word out of a Bible that has been translated from Hebrew, to Greek, to Latin and then into Middle English and Modern English.....you have LOST IN TRANSLATION.  That is my opinion as a linguist.

angela - you said "jesus was conceived by the power of God.  he spoke and jesus was.  this is the exact same concept as the quran"

you are in error - jesus in the quran was not conceived, he was created, then placed in the womb of mary.  the bible says he was conceived by the holy ghost, not created.  the two are diametrically opposed

^{Amplified Bible  Matthew 1:18} Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place under these circumstances: When His mother Mary had been promised in marriage to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be pregnant [through the power] of the Holy Spirit.

^{Today's New International Version  Matthew 1:18} This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about ^[a]: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

Greetings, Katherine

You asked and I had answered:

"Answer: Verse 130 Surah 20 Taaha confirms the 5 prayers.

You then wrote:

"This is Surah 20:130, 020.130

YUSUFALI: Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun, and before its setting; yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day: that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy.

This verse does not mention the 5 prayers.  I could only find 3 prayers in the Qur'an."

Here is an explanation: You did quote the verses from Yusuf Ali's translation and wish you had read his explanatory notes in the commentary. let's do the counting.

Pray before the sunrise. (Early morning prayer known as Fajr))

Pray before the sunset. (Late afternoon prayer known as Asr.)

At the sides of the day, which really means after the sun has crossed to the side (just after the noon) known as Zuhur.

Part of the hours of the Night. These are the early and later parts of the night.

The first part is Maghrib and the later part is Isha, when the night is dark, before the bedtime.

When we read the Arabic of Quran, the instruction is quite clear. We don't read Quran in English to understand. 

You may also read Verse 78 of Surah 17, which will give you a better picture about the five canonical prayers. Hope this helped.

Hi fredifreeloader, just a clarification.

From you:"angela - there is no conception in islam, "isa" was created adam-style, and placed in the womb, but Jesus was conceived, by his mother as you correctly say, but it was of the Holy Ghost - a woman does not conceive spontaneously as you know -  matthew 1: 20.  the av incidentally is not a very bad translation, it is an excellent translation."

Qur'aan does not say at all that Isa was created and placed in his mother's womb. God commanded and Mary conceived. It's very easy for God to do wonders and miracles and all it takes God is to say "be" and it is done. "Be" is God's Command.

Best Regards

BMZ

fredifreeloader,

I am not talking of any clay image or sculpture of Jesus. Jesus was perhaps created by some internal DNA actions within his mother's womb without any outside interference.

I am saying that the said Holy Ghost had nothing to do with Mary's pregnancy. God willed, commanded and Jesus was conceived. That is why it is called a virgin birth and a miraculous birth. if Jesus were conceived through the Holy Ghost, it would have never been called a virgin giving birth.

It was not the idea that the virgin had to give birth with the help of anyone.

Best Regards & Good Night from Singapore

BMZ

019.016
YUSUFALI: Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
PICKTHAL: And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
SHAKIR: And mention Marium in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place;

019.017
YUSUFALI: She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
PICKTHAL: And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
SHAKIR: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.

019.018
YUSUFALI: She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
PICKTHAL: She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
SHAKIR: She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent Allah, if you are one guarding (against evil).

019.019
YUSUFALI: He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
PICKTHAL: He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
SHAKIR: He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.

019.020
YUSUFALI: She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
PICKTHAL: She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
SHAKIR: She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?

019.021
YUSUFALI: He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
PICKTHAL: He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
SHAKIR: He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed.

019.022
YUSUFALI: So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
PICKTHAL: And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.
SHAKIR: So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.

019.034
YUSUFALI: Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
PICKTHAL: Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
SHAKIR: Such is Isa, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.

019.035
YUSUFALI: It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
PICKTHAL: It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a ! son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is.

rami - it is you yourself who are going off topic.  please reconsider the title of this thread and the original post by jeera.  it concerns islamic prayers in the light of the quran and hadith.  it is entitled the "message of God" - if the quran and hadith do not come into this, at least from a muslim perspective,  then i dont know what does.  certainly not the holy trinity which you are speaking about.  already we have had two interesting, but differing, opinions.  you have said that the 5 prayers are to be found in the quran and sunnah.  but jeera maintains they are all to be found in the quran. --------- but i am intrigued  by the title of the thread -  what exactly are non-muslims to understand by the phrase "message of God" as referred to by muslims - it obviously includes the quran, but does it include part sunnah, or all sunnah or no sunnah?

now you have declared this is of no interest to you, that is fair enough, but i hope you would not wish the rest of us to be dictated to by your interests only, especially if ours are distinctly on-topic as i have shown.  if you are not willing or able to discuss this matter, then that is also fine.

were you talking about rashad khalifa?

Fredifreeloader wrote: ...after all there are people in these forums who are quite happy to pick and choose in the matter of sunnah.  ahmadjoyia, for instance, informs me that as knowledge and research techniques get better, we are now increasingly in a better position to determine what is and is not authentic in the matter of sunnah.

Hmm!! Where did I "pick and choose in the matter of sunnah"? Can you remind me of a such an instance? If I recall correctly, on the topic of "apostasy", the arguments were of 'Quran' vs 'Sunnah' and not selectively picking from 'sunnah'. Hence your example is not true. Secondly, since we all know from the very basic definition of "science", there is nothing like 'static knowledge'. Therefore knowledge is a continuously increasing phenomena with time. It is in this background that I commented upon the tools of validating the ahadith. This, ofcourse, doesn't mean that all sunnah are rejected just because the science is not complete. This is really an absured arguement just as saying that I can't "live" simply because science has not matured enough to explain what the "life" is, or words to that effect. Similarly once we analyse any hadith, we apply the tools of the time that we live in and only then develop our understanding of the truths behind these narrations. I also realize that most of such tools have already been established on firm grounds but yet I can't imagine how can we close the "room for improvement" in such matters. Its not the matter of thinking "emotionally" about faith but rationally and logically. I hope, in future, my name shall be quoted with due regards to my above stated explanation and not otherwise.

Mishmish wrote: Katherine: All you have to do is Google: is Jesus the son of God, to see just how many Christian denominations not only believe that Jesus is the literal son of God, but also God manifest in human form. You are wrong. The Bible says in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. The verses you quoted don't mean that Christians believe that Jesus is the literal son of God--meaning sex.  The word begotten is an English translation of the Greek work "monogenes" and a more accurate translation is "unique" or "only" or "one of a kind."  It does not mean begetting like men and women beget children. There are no Christian denominations that believe that Jesus is the literal son of God.  With the exception of the Mormons who came into being around the 18th or 19th century (I think).  The Mormons are the only ones who believe that Jesus is the literal son of God. I also checked with some historians to find out if there ever was a Christian group who believed this and the answer is no. You might want to consider that Christians believe that Jesus was born of a virgin.  If God or Joseph or any other human being had had sex with Mary she would no longer have been a virgin. If the Qur'an says that Christians believe that sex was involved, then the Qur'an is mistaken. This belief is far more prevalent in Christiandom than the belief that Jesus is the figurative son of God. Most denominations hold forth that those who do not believe that Jesus is the actual son of God are not true Christians, but cults. You are mistaken, see above. In answer to your statement, I was not a good Christian as I did not believe the Christian doctrine. that is why I am no longer a Christian. That is fine, but if you thought that Christians believe that Jesus was the literal Son of God, you are mistaken about the Christian "doctrine." It is one thing to leave Christianity because you don't believe in Christianity, but at least get the facts straight. You might get something out of this website that explains the Christian doctrines to Muslims. http://www.arabicbible.com/islam/christian_doctrine.htm

***I have deleted a portion of your post.  It is not appropriate to name-call when it comes to other faith groups.  This will not be tolerated.  This is in violation of the IC forum guidelines so it is a warning.  If you are going to say you got information from an expert, you should quote the source and say who the expert is.  However, any quote or words of your own which degrade another faith group will be removed.***

Katherine, I would ask that you don't refer to my religion as a cult.  By definition many religions can be called "cults" however, my Church has different doctrinal views than other churches.  We are a religion and we are 12 million strong and growing.  We believe in Jesus being the literal son of God but we do not believe sex was involved in his conception.  He was born by the power of God.  Not through any physical interaction between Mary and God.

Also Katherine, beware of the sites you used to reference our beliefs there are over 240,000 sites of material that is Anti Mormon, everything from doctrine taken out of context to flat out lies.  If you really want to know what we think.  Our website has the resources to find almost everything you want to know and its straight from the Horses mouth.  You don't have to believe it, but its what we believe.

If you don't agree with it....remember the Immortal words of Thumper from Bambi.  "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all."

Katherine:

This is just a small sample of Christians who proclaim that Jesus is the literal son of God and that in fact you must hold this belief to be a true Christian. As you can see, Pat Robertson actually called the Mormons a cult because they DO NOT believe this, as opposed to you writing that the Mormons are a cult because they DO believe this.

Angela, I apologise as I am just using this as an example of discrepancies. Please do not be offended.

I can go on and on listing more, but it is clear that this is a commonly held belief and in fact the very basis of most Christians belief.

Billy Graham:
Q: When did Jesus realize He must be the Son of God, or did He always feel that way, do you think? I find it hard to imagine what He must have felt like, especially if He always knew He was going to be put to death for our sins. � M.G.

A: Dear M.G.,
The Bible doesn't tell us much about Jesus' boyhood�but even the one glimpse we have of him as a boy tells us that He was already aware of His unique status as God's Son, sent from heaven to die for our sins.

The incident occurred when Jesus was 12. Mary (His mother) and Joseph took Him to Jerusalem for Passover, one of the annual Jewish feasts. Mary and Joseph were devout people, and apparently made the long trip from Nazareth every year. No doubt they had spent many hours with Jesus at home, teaching Him from God's Word and sharing with Him the uniqueness of His birth.

On this occasion, they became separated from Jesus. When they found him several days later, He was in the Temple listening to the teachers and asking them questions about God's Word. He told them, "Why were you searching for me? Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" (Luke 2:49). The Bible then adds, "Then he went down to Nazareth. ... And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men" (Luke 2:51-52).

Never forget that Jesus was God in human flesh, from the moment of His miraculous conception. And because He was God as well as man, He was able to be the one final sacrifice for our sins. Have you received Him into your heart, and do you thank Him every day for His love?

Pat Robertson: "A cult is any group that has a form of godliness, but does not recognize Jesus Christ as the unique son of God."....."One test of a cult is that it often does not strictly teach that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who Himself is God manifested in the flesh."......"Christian-oriented cults include the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), the Worldwide Church of God, Christian Science, Unity, Unitarianism, The Way International, Rosicrucian Society of America, Bahai, Hare Krishna, Scientology, the Unification Church, and the Jehovah's Witnesses."
--CBN pamphlet entitled "Cults," dated 1992

John Hagee: Beliefs The Lord Jesus Christ
We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. We believe in His substitutionary death for all men, His resurrection, and His eventual return to judge the world.

Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ: As Defined In The BibleJesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, the Second Person of the http://www.islamicity.com/forum/trinity.html - Trinity , who took upon Himself human flesh through the miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary. He who is true God became true man, uniting two natures in one person forever. Christ lived a perfect, sinless life, died on the cross as an atoning sacrifice for our sins, rose bodily from the dead, and ascended into Heaven where He now serves as our High Priest, our only Mediator.

422 'But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.'[1] This is 'the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God':[2] God has visited his people. He has fulfilled the promise he made to Abraham and his descendants. He acted far beyond all expectation - he has sent his own 'beloved Son'.[3]

During the First week of Easter, 1994, a group of 92 laity, clergy, bishops, and professors gathered to consult about the future of The United Methodist Church. We issued "An Invitation to the Church" for others to join us in exalting Jesus Christ as we confront the crisis of faith within The United Methodist Church. In love for the Church we [a gathering of over 800 United Methodists meeting in Atlanta, Ga. April 28-29, 1995] now present this Confessional Statement for the renewal and reform of The United Methodist Church.

The crisis before us is this: Will The United Methodist Church confess, and be unified by, the apostolic faith in Jesus Christ; or will The United Methodist Church challenge the primacy of Scripture and justify the acceptance of beliefs incompatible with our Articles of Religion and Confession of Faith?

The United Methodist Church is now incapable of confessing with one voice the orthodox Trinitarian faith, particularly Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the Savior of the world, and the Lord of history and the Church. While giving assent to Jesus Christ as Lord, our denomination tolerates opinions that "strike at the root of Christianity" (John Wesley). Our Church suffers from private versions of the faith that do not find their root in Scripture.

The purpose of this Confessional Statement is to call The United Methodist Church, all laity and all clergy, to confess the person, work, and reign of Jesus Christ. This Statement confronts and repudiates teachings and practices in The United Methodist Church that currently challenge the truth of Jesus Christ--the Son of God, the Savior of the world, and the Lord of all. Aware of our own sinfulness, we who make this Confession submit our common witness and our lives to the judgment and mercy of God, as attested in Scripture, the written Word of God.

"He (Jesus)... said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter answered, 'You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.' And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven." (Matthew 16:15-17 NRSV)

We confess, in accordance with Holy Scripture and with the Holy Spirit's help, that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God. Confession of Jesus as the Son is essential, not a matter of personal opinion. It is a matter of revelation, which was given to Peter and to the Church by God whom Jesus called Father. With Peter and the other Apostles, we confess that Jesus is the Christ. We confess with John and the other Apostles that in Jesus of Nazareth, the Word made flesh, the eternal Son of God has come into the world to make known the fullness of God's glory in grace and truth (John I). Therefore we confess, in continuity with the apostolic witness of the Church, that Jesus Christ is "true God from true God" (the Nicene Creed), the Second Person of the Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We repudiate teachings that claim the person of Jesus Christ is not adequate to reveal the fullness of God (Heb. 1:1-3). We reject the claim that the maleness of Jesus disqualifies him as the true revelation of God. We reject the claim that God can be fully known apart from Jesus Christ. According to the apostolic faith, such teachings are false and unfaithful to the Gospel.

Katherine:

I did not, in any of my posts, state that Jesus was conceived by intercourse or sex with a man. I stated that Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God. That this is not a figurative belief, but that Jesus is the literal son of God. 

Katherine wrote:  I understand why you are confused because this is what the Qur'an teaches.

This is what the Quran teaches:

When the angel said: Mary, God gives you a good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is, Jesus, son of Maryam - high honored shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. He shall speak to men in the cradle, and of age, and righteous he shall be. O Lord, said Maryam: How shall I have a son, seeing no mortal has touched me? Even so, he said: God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He but saith to it, Be, and it is!� (Al-Imran 3:45-47).

We believe that Jesus was born of a virgin birth and that Jesus is a great teacher and Prophet and will return before the Day of Judgement. But we do not believe Jesus is the son of God or that he is the path to salvation.

Mishmish wrote: Katherine wrote:  I understand why you are confused because this is what the Qur'an teaches.  This is what the Quran teaches: When the angel said: Mary, God gives you a good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is, Jesus, son of Maryam - high honored shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. He shall speak to men in the cradle, and of age, and righteous he shall be. O Lord, said Maryam: How shall I have a son, seeing no mortal has touched me? Even so, he said: God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He but saith to it, Be, and it is!� (Al-Imran 3:45-47). We believe that Jesus was born of a virgin birth and that Jesus is a great teacher and Prophet and will return before the Day of Judgement. But we do not believe Jesus is the son of God or that he is the path to salvation.

(I edited the term "Messiah" as this does not appear in the Quran and I do not wish to cause further confusion.)

In the Bible we are all children of God therefore figurative sons and daughters of God. The Lord's Parayer begins: OUR FATHER who art in heaven".   This is the figurative meaning in the Bible, this is not what Christians believe about Jesus. The entire basis of Christianity is that Jesus Christ is the son of God, sent to the earth to die for the sins of man so that men may be forgiven. If this is not the basis of Christianity, then many people are extremely confused.

I copied  what the Quran says about Jesus, and it was incorrect. After I read the post I thought it was wrong so I got out my Quran, it does not say Messiah, but rather "held in honour in this world and the Hereafter".  I apologise for the confusion, May Allah forgive me.

But, the Ayats about Jesus birth there is nothing sexual. In fact the Bible is more sexual in connotation as in many versions it states that the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit went into Mary. The Quran states that God said "Be" and it was.

Katherine: you are the one who wrote this:

I wasn't calling you confused, you were calling me confused...

Some of the translations of the Quran use the word Christ, I don't know if the actual Quran uses that word. Someone else would have to answer that.

The Jews do not believe that the Messiah is a divine being that will die for their sins. This is a strictly Christian belief.

The Messianic Idea in Judaism

As' Salaamu Alaikum

Katherine if you would entertain my words here let anothe rMuslim with a different opinion explain. Without uhsing verse but just philosophical sense I can relate to you in this portion of the discussion because I myself was a Christian prior to my conversion to Islam. Most mainstream Christian faiths i.e Roman Catholics, Coptic Christians,  so on so forth believe in the divinity of Christ, meaning most believe that he is more than a prophetic figure as Jesus is portrayed in Islam. As far as the Qur'an is concerned, regarding this specific subject I believe most christians in the time of Muhammad even before him had revered Jesus beyond the figure of prophethood.

Even when we see historically (from the Christian view) after the ascension of Jesus most of the Christians were observant Jews whom were referred to as Nazarene Christians who, eventually later split into varying sects. Eventually the message concerning Christ differed. Various doctrines arose i.e Gospel are Barnabus, and now Gospel of Yudas (Judas) concerning the nature of Jesus. As the Qur'an being the last rveelation of God, it was sent as a settler of disputes regarding the nature of Jesus. I believe the Qur'an was commenting on the common message which the most influential Christian sects in that time (of the prophet Muhammad) and what the Apostles differed afterward was about.

When we talk about "Son of God" I have to agree with Katherine that the concept of "Son of God" was used in the broad sense. In the Beginning of the Bible it talks about how the "Sons of God" whom scholars later say were Angels who had intercourse with "daughters of men" who later created the Neraphim. Also the prophet David was also called a "Son of God." Even Jesus said "Yea are gods and children of the most high." Like most of God's doctrines we have the figurative, literal and metaphorical.

Katherine as I have mentioned that in the time of Muhammad even before his advent most Christians held Jesus as both a Son of and God himself. The Qur'an clealry distinct Jesus as being a man. I know that the Aramaic term for father or "Abba" was said by Jesus in the Bible but whether this was considered literal or metaphorical depends on the person. I believe the Qur'an is commenting on just the gernal understanding at that time on the nature of Jesus because as we have seen in the history of the Christian faith it went through gnerational changes (like Islam) after Jesus had left the scene.

Like Christianity after the death of Muhammad ibn Abdullah, Islam as a religion went through changes as far as splitting into sects. The application of theology differed and schools of thought formed. Like Christianity how God is to be revered along with mentioning his prophets differed among these schools of thought. However, we must understand that although the teachings of today in Christianity differ in the muslim opinion Christianity, originally is an offshoot of Judaism whose foundations was the belief in One God.

Origins of the word Christ:

The spelling Christ in English dates from the 17th century, when, in the spirit of the enlightenment, spellings of certain words were changed to fit their Greek or Latin origins. Prior to this, in Old and Middle English, the word was spelt Crist, the i being pronounced either as a long e, preserved in the names of churches such as St Katherine Cree, or as a short i, preserved in the modern pronunciation of Christmas.

The term appears in English and most European languages owing to the Greek usage of it in the New Testament as a description for Jesus. In the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, it was used to translate into Greek the Hebrew Mashiach (Messiah), meaning "[one who is] anointed". While many Christian writers claim that this term implied a match to the criteria of being anointed that Jewish tradition had given to their predicted future saviour, some argue that there is no "saviour" concept, as suggested in Christianity, in the Jewish tradition. The "anointed" one more closely means 'high priest', 'leader', or even 'ruler'.

The Greek term is cognate with Chrism, meaning perfumed oil; in fact Christ in classical Greek usage could mean covered in oil, and is thus a literal and accurate translation of Messiah. The Greek term is thought to derive from the Proto-Indo-European root of ghrei-, which in Germanic languages, such as English, mutated into gris- and grim-. Hence the English words grisly, grim, grime, and grease, are thought to be cognate with Christ, though these terms came to have a negative connotation, where the Greek word had a positive connotation. In French, the Greek term, in ordinary usage, mutated first to Cresme and then to Creme, due to the loss of certain 's' usages in French, which was loaned into English as Cream. The word was used by extension in Hellenic and Jewish contexts to refer to the office, role or status of the person, not to their actually having oil on their body, as a strict reading of the etymology might imply.

Dear Katherine,

Perhaps your confusion over the words "the Christ" in the Qur'an stem from your lack of knowledge about the Arabic language.

In Arabic, the definite article "al" (the) is put in front of nouns and adjectives to make an indefinite word definite.  So, in Arabic, it's the sun, the man, the advice, the religion, the year, the praise, the fruit, the tanner, the soldier, the christ....

The "al" (the) does not make the noun special in any way.  I hope this helps your understanding of the interpretation of "al massiah" to the christ.  Have a nice day!

(sorry, wrote la instead of al in two places!  too early in the day!  fixed now)

Peace, ummziba.

Katherine!

From you: "David, I agree with you.  The Qur'an does call Jesus the Christ.  It is interesting to note the word "the" in front of Christ.  To my knowledge no other prophet in the Qur'an is called "the" Christ or for that matter "a" Christ, meaning an anointed one.  All prophets were annointed by God.  But "the" Christ is the special Christ; the special annointed one; the one the Jews were longing to come and some to this day are still awaiting."

Qur'aan does not call Jesus, the Christ. Qur'aan names him as Maseeh Esabna Maryam which means Maseeh Essa, the son of maryam. Maseeh simply means the annointed one. Most prophets used to oil their hair. However, it also means the chosen prophets of God.

Maseeh has nothing to do with the Jewish word for Messiah. You don't have to translate the Messiah into Kristos and then into Christ, saying that Qur'aan thus confirms he was Christ. Qur'aan does not confirm that. Qur'aan just calls him as the son of Mary, which is more proper. Qur'aan refutes that he was a son or the son of God.

BR

BMZ

Katherine:

You are quoting from the Bible which Muslims believe to have been corrupted by men. That is why the Prophet Mohammed and the Quran were sent to men. To correct the corruption of God's previous message. Muslims cannot use quotes from the Bible to prove God's message because we do not know if they have been corrupted or not. We use the Quran.

Even the Jews do not believe that the Messiah is divine in any way, nor that he has the ability to forgive sin. Only God has the ability to forgive sin.

Katherine I have to echo the same sentiment as Mishmish. Even Observant Jews do not believe their Messiah is a "Son of God" even in the figurative sense. Katherine I can tell by your biased view that you say Jesus being a Messiah is a special Messaih. Sure Jesus is special. The Qur'an states: "The similitude of Isa (Jesus) is that of Adam."

Jesus like Adam had no father to influence his birth the only difference is Adam had no mother either. Jesus is a prophet yes and his ranking is high in the prophetic order, however his duties as a prophet and the message he brought does not make him (in that sense) better than the prophet that came before him.

The Qur'an rejects Jesus being "Son of God" both from the literal and figurative because the Qur'an clearly makes the distinction between mankind and him (God). Although God loves all his creation it is clear that there must be distinctions made. Our personal relationship with God does not have to invoke personalized words such as "Daughters and Sons of God."

I believe the Qur'an was addressing the common problem of theology, which was certain people attrivuting Sonship of some prophet i.e Ezra and Jesus.

One thing that I have to refute in your argument Katherine is your association between Messiah and Sonship of Jesus. Just because someone maybe "specially anointed" doesn't mean Sonship is theirs. Of course you can produce verses that would argue your point be even on the basis of historical theology it is not proven unless you are arguing from the NT standpoint.

Jesus was special in the sense of his miracle birth. If there can be made any notable distinction that would be it. Like many prophets before him Jesus performed miracles that the people in those times needed to see. But this alone doesn't entitle Jesus as being the onl;y person able to do that. Each prophet in their time was attributed miracles in accordance to their teachings and I believe Muhammad is no different.

Like Mishmish says the Messiah is special to the people as a human figure of courage, intelligence and one who will judge accordingly by their Torah. There is nothing in Rabbinical teachings not even Rambam (Maimonides) talks about the divinity of the messiah. Katherine in order to argue the Jewish standpoint you have to be a Jew.

Assalamu Alaikum ak_m_f:

We follow the Old Testament to the extent of that which can be verified by Quran and Hadith. There are details and stories of the Prophets in the Old Testament that Islam does not agree with.

If it cannot be verified, then we cannot guarantee the authenticity.

Assalamu Alaikum Br. Israfil:

Follow what? The Torah or the Quran?

Hi Israfil,

Salaam Alaikum

Yes, that is interesting. In the sense that the essence of the Ten Commandments and many other Commandments are being followed by the Muslims, which the Qur'aan contains significantly and verifies.

Examples would be:

Kosher and Halal. Not charging interest, not engaging in usury and the full belief in One God. (Of course, the Jews are into charging others interest.)

BR

BMZ 

Catherine,

From you: "

A Messanic Jew would spell Jesus' name Yeshua with the accent on the second syllable, Ye-SHU-a.

Yeshua was his name known to the Jews and all, not just known to the Messianic Jews only, while the current Jesus, as pronounced, was not his name at all. If you keep the last 's' silent in Jesus, you get Jesu which is close to Yesu.. Some name him as Yesuh, pronounced as Yay-soo. Messaianic Jews are simply Christians, they are not Jews.

From you: "If the Qur'an refutes that Jesus was the son of God, then the Qur'an refutes that Jesus was the King Messiah.  Do Muslims also refute that Allah has sons in the figurative sense because YHVH sure claimed to have sons in the figurative sense?  In fact in the Old Testament YHVH calls his angels sons and daughters."

Qur'aan speaks of God Almighty, the Most High. As such, it calls all, servants of God. The servants of God simply mean the men of God. Muslims do not use the terms son of God, daughter of God, sons of God and daughters of God. The best term used for the best servants of God, who delivered God's messages, is the Messenger of God or Prophet of God.

BR

BMZ

Assalamu Alaikum:

But there are also many differences between what the Quran and Hadith say and what the Old Testament says.

As an example: in Islam we do not believe that Eve seduced Adam into disobeying the word of Allah, but that they were both equally guilty. We also believe that Allah in his inifinite mercy forgave them. This is in direct opposition to the Old Testament which states that this sin was so great that God banished them from Eden and thus began Original Sin. From that point all of the children of Adam and Eve were born into sin, a concept that no Muslim believes as we know we are each responsible for our own sins. 

Hi Mishmish,

Wa Alaikum Assalaam,

From you: "

But there are also many differences between what the Quran and Hadith say and what the Old Testament says.

As an example: in Islam we do not believe that Eve seduced Adam into disobeying the word of Allah, but that they were both equally guilty. We also believe that Allah in his inifinite mercy forgave them. This is in direct opposition to the Old Testament which states that this sin was so great that God banished them from Eden and thus began Original Sin. From that point all of the children of Adam and Eve were born into sin, a concept that no Muslim believes as we know we are each responsible for our own sins." 

You are absolutely correct. Yes, in the sight of God Almighty, both of them made that mistake and later God Almighty forgave them which is evident from Verse 23 of Surah 7 Al-Aaraaf. All of us recite those words everyday, asking God Almighty for forgiveness. You are also right when you say that in Islam there is no concept of the First Sin or the Original Sin.

Even the Jews do not have the concept of the First Sin or the original Sin, even though it is written in their Jewish Bible (Tanakh) and the OT of the Christians.

Even Jesus did not, on any occasion, teach or explain himself that he was here to die for the so-called First or Original Sin. He came to teach the Law which was Torah, the law of which an iota could not be changed. That is where Qur'aan comes in and talks only about the relevant matters and corrects what had been forged. Forgeries not just in words or writing or printing but forgeries in the manner of explaining and teachings. Hope you get me right here.

Thanks.

BR

BMZ

Mishmish wrote: Katherine: This is just a small sample of Christians who proclaim that Jesus is the literal son of God and that in fact you must hold this belief to be a true Christian. As you can see, Pat Robertson actually called the Mormons a cult because they DO NOT believe this, as opposed to you writing that the Mormons are a cult because they DO believe this. Angela, I apologise as I am just using this as an example of discrepancies. Please do not be offended. I can go on and on listing more, but it is clear that this is a commonly held belief and in fact the very basis of most Christians belief. Billy Graham: Q: When did Jesus realize He must be the Son of God, or did He always feel that way, do you think? I find it hard to imagine what He must have felt like, especially if He always knew He was going to be put to death for our sins. � M.G. A: Dear M.G., The Bible doesn't tell us much about Jesus' boyhood�but even the one glimpse we have of him as a boy tells us that He was already aware of His unique status as God's Son, sent from heaven to die for our sins. The incident occurred when Jesus was 12. Mary (His mother) and Joseph took Him to Jerusalem for Passover, one of the annual Jewish feasts. Mary and Joseph were devout people, and apparently made the long trip from Nazareth every year. No doubt they had spent many hours with Jesus at home, teaching Him from God's Word and sharing with Him the uniqueness of His birth. On this occasion, they became separated from Jesus. When they found him several days later, He was in the Temple listening to the teachers and asking them questions about God's Word. He told them, "Why were you searching for me? Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" (Luke 2:49). The Bible then adds, "Then he went down to Nazareth. ... And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men" (Luke 2:51-52). Never forget that Jesus was God in human flesh, from the moment of His miraculous conception. And because He was God as well as man, He was able to be the one final sacrifice for our sins. Have you received Him into your heart, and do you thank Him every day for His love? Pat Robertson: "A cult is any group that has a form of godliness, but does not recognize Jesus Christ as the unique son of God."....."One test of a cult is that it often does not strictly teach that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who Himself is God manifested in the flesh."......"Christian-oriented cults include the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), the Worldwide Church of God, Christian Science, Unity, Unitarianism, The Way International, Rosicrucian Society of America, Bahai, Hare Krishna, Scientology, the Unification Church, and the Jehovah's Witnesses." --CBN pamphlet entitled "Cults," dated 1992   John Hagee: Beliefs The Lord Jesus Christ We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. We believe in His substitutionary death for all men, His resurrection, and His eventual return to judge the world. Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ: As Defined In The BibleJesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, the Second Person of the http://www.islamicity.com/forum/trinity.html - Trinity , who took upon Himself human flesh through the miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary. He who is true God became true man, uniting two natures in one person forever. Christ lived a perfect, sinless life, died on the cross as an atoning sacrifice for our sins, rose bodily from the dead, and ascended into Heaven where He now serves as our High Priest, our only Mediator. The Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven in the same glorified physical body in which He arose, was seated at His Father's right hand, assuring us of the perfection of His work of redemption, and that He now, as Head over all things to the Church, is engaged on behalf of the saved as their only Advocate. CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO CHAPTER TWO - I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD The Good News: God has sent his Son 422 'But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.'[1] This is 'the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God':[2] God has visited his people. He has fulfilled the promise he made to Abraham and his descendants. He acted far beyond all expectation - he has sent his own 'beloved Son'.[3] Methodists: We Confess Jesus Christ The Son, The Savior, The Lord Preamble During the First week of Easter, 1994, a group of 92 laity, clergy, bishops, and professors gathered to consult about the future of The United Methodist Church. We issued "An Invitation to the Church" for others to join us in exalting Jesus Christ as we confront the crisis of faith within The United Methodist Church. In love for the Church we [a gathering of over 800 United Methodists meeting in Atlanta, Ga. April 28-29, 1995] now present this Confessional Statement for the renewal and reform of The United Methodist Church. The crisis before us is this: Will The United Methodist Church confess, and be unified by, the apostolic faith in Jesus Christ; or will The United Methodist Church challenge the primacy of Scripture and justify the acceptance of beliefs incompatible with our Articles of Religion and Confession of Faith? The United Methodist Church is now incapable of confessing with one voice the orthodox Trinitarian faith, particularly Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the Savior of the world, and the Lord of history and the Church. While giving assent to Jesus Christ as Lord, our denomination tolerates opinions that "strike at the root of Christianity" (John Wesley). Our Church suffers from private versions of the faith that do not find their root in Scripture. The purpose of this Confessional Statement is to call The United Methodist Church, all laity and all clergy, to confess the person, work, and reign of Jesus Christ. This Statement confronts and repudiates teachings and practices in The United Methodist Church that currently challenge the truth of Jesus Christ--the Son of God, the Savior of the world, and the Lord of all. Aware of our own sinfulness, we who make this Confession submit our common witness and our lives to the judgment and mercy of God, as attested in Scripture, the written Word of God. We Confess Jesus Christ The Son "He (Jesus)... said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter answered, 'You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.' And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven." (Matthew 16:15-17 NRSV) We confess, in accordance with Holy Scripture and with the Holy Spirit's help, that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God. Confession of Jesus as the Son is essential, not a matter of personal opinion. It is a matter of revelation, which was given to Peter and to the Church by God whom Jesus called Father. With Peter and the other Apostles, we confess that Jesus is the Christ. We confess with John and the other Apostles that in Jesus of Nazareth, the Word made flesh, the eternal Son of God has come into the world to make known the fullness of God's glory in grace and truth (John I). Therefore we confess, in continuity with the apostolic witness of the Church, that Jesus Christ is "true God from true God" (the Nicene Creed), the Second Person of the Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We repudiate teachings that claim the person of Jesus Christ is not adequate to reveal the fullness of God (Heb. 1:1-3). We reject the claim that the maleness of Jesus disqualifies him as the true revelation of God. We reject the claim that God can be fully known apart from Jesus Christ. According to the apostolic faith, such teachings are false and unfaithful to the Gospel.

1. Atonement
   1. "Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane," (Laurel Rohlfing, �Sharing Time: The Atonement,� Friend, Mar. 1989, 39.)
   2. "We accept Christ's atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments," (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, pg. 68.)
2. Baptism
   1. Baptism for the dead, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p. 141.) This is a practice of baptizing each other in place of non-Mormons who are now dead. Their belief is that in the afterlife, the "newly baptized" person will be able to enter into a higher level of Mormon heaven.
3. Bible
   1. "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. . ." 8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church.
   2. "Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God." (1 Nephi 13:28).
4. Book of Mormon
   1. The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, 4:461.)
5. Devil, the
   1. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
   2. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
   3. A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)
6. God
   1. God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321.  Joseph Smith,  Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)
   2. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man�s..." (D&C 130:22).
   3. God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3.)
   4. "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345
   5. God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105.)
   6. God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428.)
   7. God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115.) - This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed.  Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.
   8. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
7. God, becoming a god
   1. After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.)
   2. "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them," (DC 132:20).
8. God, many gods
   1. There are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
   2. "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)
9. God, mother goddess
   1. There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443.)
   2. God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.)
10. God, Trinity
    1. The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)
11. Gospel, the
    1. The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 182-185.)
    2. Consists of laws and ordinances: "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79)
12. Heaven
    1. There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, Mormon Doctrine, p. 348.
13. Holy Ghost, the
    1. The Holy Ghost is a male personage, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, (Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, page 118; Journal of Discources, Vol. 5, page 179.)
14.  Jesus
    1. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)
    2. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.)
    3. Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)
    4. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
    5. "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115).
    6. "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).
    7. "Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost ...Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18).
    8. "Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ..." (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg. 150).
15. Joseph Smith
    1. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation.  There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670.)
16. Pre-existence
    1. We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth, (Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218.)
    2. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)
    3. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
17. Prophets
    1. We need prophets today, the same as in the Old Testament, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 444-445.)
18. Salvation
    1. "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)
    2. A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)
    3. Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)
    4. Good works are necessary for salvation, Articles of Faith, p. 92.)
    5. There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)
    6. "The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.)
    7. "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79).
    8. "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697). 
    9. "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).
19. Trinity, the
    1. The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)
    2. "Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God [anyhow]--three in one and one in three. . .It is curious organization� All are crammed into one God according to sectarianism (Christian faith). It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God--he would be a giant or a monster." (Joseph Smith, Teachings, 372).

     Some Mormons may disagree with a few of the points listed on this page, but all of what is stated here is from Mormon authors in good standing of the Mormon church. (end)

I advise you to read the following articles and you will see that Jesus is God's son in the spiritual sense and not the literal sense, God forbid!!!

http://www.arabicbible.com/islam/son.htm

Quote:  Christians do not believe that Jesus is the son of God in a physical sense. God forbid that he should take a wife! That would be blasphemy. However, they do believe that Jesus is the Son of God in a spiritual sense.

There are a lot of good articles on this site especially for Muslims to correct their misunderstandings of Christianity:  http://www.arabicbible.com/islam/christ ian_doctrine.htm

http://www.carm.org/islam/obj_Jesus_son.htm

Quote: 

   To some Muslims, the term �Son of God� brings up images of a sort of divine being with a goddess wife who together have somehow produced a child. When Christians use the term in reference to Jesus, they immediately assume that the Christians are committing blasphemy by stating that God has participated in some sort of sexual union with another god � a goddess wife. 

They say: "the most gracious has betaken a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it in the skies are about to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they attributed a son to the Most Gracious, for it is not consonant with the majesty of the Most Gracious that he should beget a son. ( bibliography.htm#The%20Holy%20Qur%27an - The Qur'an , 5:88-92).

    This is naturally a ridiculous scenario and is a false assumption.   No where in the Bible does it say that God had relations with anyone to produce a literal son, nor has Christianity taught that God produced a son through any physical act whatsoever. Such a thing is heretical.  Nevertheless, the Bible in numerous places calls Jesus the Son of God.  But, it does not mean that Jesus is the literal offspring of God.
 
     The Muslims need to as ask what does that term mean, in its historic and biblical context.   Instead of imposing upon the biblical term a meaning that is foreign to it, the Muslim should learn what the Bible means by the term and think of it in the context as revealed in the Scriptures where it is used.  To not do that would be the same as me taking a term out of the Qur'an, remove it from its Qur'anic context, and applying another meaning to it and then saying what the Qur'an teaches is false.  The term �Son of God� is used in different senses in the Bible.  But, never does it mean that God has a wife and produces offspring.

Once again, if the Qur'an says that Christians believe that God had sex with Mary in order to produce Jesus, then the Qur'an is mistaken.

I have to say that I am appalled that some Muslims believe this about Christians, but I do understand why they do because I believe that is what the Qur'an says.

(Your post has been edited to remove your offensive remarks. Please refrain from denigrating or calling other religions cults because they may have a differing opinion.)

Katherine:

I have posyted what the Quran says about the birth of Jesus and once again there is no mention of sex. Why do you keep insisting this is what the Quran says?

If you had truly read the Quran, then you would know that an entire Surah(chapter) of the Quran, Surah 5  Maida, deals with how some Jews and Christians corrupted and twisted the word of God.

We appear to be going in circles here because even though we have posted proof to you of what we are saying Muslims believe, you keep denying this is what they believe.

However, it is a relief to know that YOU do not believe that Jesus is the son of God, for that is a corruption of God's word and an untruth. Although why the Bible states that Jesus is God's "one and only begotten son" I do not know.

Mishmish, though I don't take offense to you using the example, I do get upset with the insistence in using my church as an example in a cult. 

Katherine, you wrote:  "However, it is a relief to know that YOU do not believe that Jesus is the son of God, for that is a corruption of God's word and an untruth. Although why the Bible states that Jesus is God's "one and only begotten son" I do not know.

There is no need to put "YOU" in CAPS.  All Christians believe as I do.  I gave you the websites to read.  Did you read them?"

If you look at my Avatar you notice that I have a Russian Orthodox Cross, this was my faith prior to being baptized a Mormon.  I Got the Following from the OCA (Orthodox Church of America) website.

As' Salaamu Alaikum Mishmish

I asked the question: "If the Qur'an superceeds the Torah" how can we say that we follow authentic parts of the Torah so long as those parts can be verified? If the Qur'an superceeds the Torah it superceeds its entirety not just things that are the same or similar. So its either one or the other.

Rather as far as my understanding is concerned the Qur'an was sent to superceed both Torah and the Gospels as it is said that the messages since their coming were lost. The "lost" messages perhaps are meant to be in principle that the meanings were lost in the hearts of the followers. That is what I meant.

Also Mishmish most Jews would argue especially Moses Maimonides in his "Mishneh-Torah" that the Garden of Eve was literal, rather it was metaphorical. Although Jews would acknowledge Adam being the father of humanity I don't think it as they have stated, it was meant to be literal either

Assalamu Alaikum Br. Israfil:

I am not sure which parts of the Torah we may follow without verification. Therein lies the problem.

With many of the translations of the Holy Quran, the translators have used heavy Biblical references in their summaries, but not all of what they use can actually be found in the Quran or Hadith, so how do we know they are correct?

Wa Alaikum Salaam Sister Mishmish,

You're right to respond with that question which is the great mystery of Islamic theology. However I'm willing to go back to your position in saying that "some" parts of the Torah are correct however many scholars have taken the Hadith P.O.V. Thus we have come to the question Katherine is trying to pose, which, I hope we are answering. Personally, it's quite difficult to summarize calling the entire Torah and some parts of the New Testament historically and theologically incorrect. I'm willing to take your position (Mishmish) on aspects of Torah and some parts of the New Testament, Psalms as authentic aspects of the Bible.

Assalamu Alaikum Br. Israfil:

I think you misunderstand my posts. I am saying rather the opposite, that as Muslism we don't know which parts are correct, but must verify with the Quran and Hadith.

We could never say that the Prophet Lot did this or that without verifying this with Quran or Hadith because the tradition of the Prophet Lot is very different in Islam than what is in the Bible. The same is true for many of the Prophets. We share the Prophets but not necessarily the details of their lives.

As Muslim reverts, we must be careful not to let what we learned before Islam to influence what we believe as Muslims.

Ummm ok......

Ok then Again it brings me back to the question on the Qur'an superceeding the Torah. If it states in the Torah that a prophet got drunk and slept with his daughters obviously we Muslims would say that, that is wrong that no prophet can commit sin (although that is arguable there). No we cannot as Muslims say "the Torah of today is corrupt" and then at the same time say "In the Torah this verse predicts the prophet and says thus and so" that is contradictory even if we verify some truth in the Torah, since the Qur'an superceeds the Torah why use it as a source of reference if the Torah of today as well as the Gospels are corrupt? That is my point

Walaikum Assalaam:

I don't use the Bible as a source of reference in the manner that I believe it to be correct, but rather as a source of what they believe to be correct.

If someone told me that Christians do not believe that Adam was  formed In God's image, then I would say that the Bible states in Genesis 1:26 that God created man in His own image, but the Quran does not state this.

I found a first hand example of how reverts differ from other Muslims in that most of us have some Biblical knowledge and do not always distinguish the two.  I was telling my husband a story about one of the Prophets and he had no idea what I was talking about. It was not a story that was in the Quran or the Hadith, yet I was reciting it because I had learned it as a Christian and just assumed that because Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, and I had not read otherwise about this particular story, that it was correct. But I had no basis in Islam to accept that it was correct.

For Muslims who are born into Islam, unless they actually make a study of the Bible and other religions, they have never even heard these stories because they don't exist in Quran or Hadith.

Does what I just said make sense?

Assalamu Alaikum:

As for using the Bible for reference as in the other thread here: Biblical Prophecies about Mohammed, we know that in the Quran it is written that Jesus foretold the coming of the Prophet Mohmmed. We can verify through the Quran that these prophecies are correct.

Mishmish wrote: I don't use the Bible as a source of reference in the manner that I believe it to be correct, but rather as a source of what they believe to be correct.

Believing/disbelieving because of one's faith is one thing, however, rationalising the text beyond faith is another very important area that me must not ignore. In doing so, historicity of bible is seldom established on sound footings, a fact that we all know. Translations based upon conjectures can't become authentic merely because of blind faith on the texts. The notion of "spiritually inspired" texts can't be entertained with so many anonymous authorships in the Biblical books that spiritual inspiration is essentially a lable only through blind faith. In this sense, I think, the question of believing or not believing on Bible, is immaterial. Isn't it?

Greetings Katherine.

Katherine wrote: Mishmish wrote: The Quran corrected the fallacies that man had brought into religion. By the time of the revelation of the Quran, men had made the Prophet Jesus into not only the son of God, but an incarnation of God and were praying to him and idols again. The title "son of God" is another title for the Messiah and so is "the son of man."

I would agree that "son of man" has no real significant connotation in a general sense but in the Christian sense is synonymous with the Christological notion of the "messiah", which is in and of itself a word game intended to allow its followers to find the Christian theological idealism of the "messiah" divine man foreshadowed in the Hebrew Scriptures who would be a sacrifice for man.  

Katherine wrote: The Qur'an does not seem to understand incarnation.

Any specific example?

Katherine wrote:   Look at the Old Testament's use of theophanies and you will understand the incarnation--God's Holy Word made flesh.

"Theophanies" is somewhat ambiguous without a real context and specific examples of what event in which Gd revealed Himself such that the event proves that Jesus was a Gdman.  

Katherine wrote:  Christians do not worship God's creation.  Jesus was worshipped and he never corrected anyone who worshipped him.  Christians worship the God within or the God incarnated into Jesus.

Jesus issued forth from the vagina of a woman. He grew from a baby and went through puberty. His flesh was made of the very dust we walk on. The dust was created. Jesus was a creation. Jesus died. Jesus was but a man. I have yet to find a solid argument that people worshiped him.

Your statement that Christians worship the gd within is really no different from pagans who worship idols.

Katherine wrote: Christians have never worshipped idols.

You worship a man by claiming to worship the gd within the man?

Katherine wrote: The Qur'an does not seem to understand the term "son of God" in any capacity.  The Qur'an says that Allah has no son.  Look at the Old Testament.  The God of the OT says that he has sons.

I would say Christians do not understand the term son of Gd, and it is this misunderstanding that Gd corrects. The term is a word game put forth by your theology along with the messiah word game one finds in your bible. Furthermore, you assume that the Quran responds to the church of Rome everytime it mentions anything about Jesus or Christianity. That would be a false assumption given the myriad of sects prevelant at the time of the Prophet (Gd give him peace). I will say that Christians do show an attitude of Jesus being a literal son of Gd and it is when they find a verse in the Quran that brings this up that they claim they have no such belief. The important thing is to keep in mind that it would be naive to think that the Quran makes reference to the theological chicanre that permeated from Rome or Byzantium everytime Allah responds to various non-believers during that day.

Katherine wrote: Also, what complaint does the Qur'an have against all Jews?  The Jews did not worship Jesus.  What message does the Qur'an have for them?

The Quran makes various points, but from my understanding, there are two huge points, one of which many Muslims ignore.

1) They were chosen by Gd and their ancestors were given many blessings. They are familiar with the way revelation works and with the main message. Given this, they best not be the first to reject the message.

2) The Bani Israel, although blessed, made great errors and committed great sin. These mistakes are clearly spelt out. Unfortunately some Muslims see this as propaganda to pump up hate machines for a rallying cry to bolster political views. These mistakes are spelt out as a lesson that Muslims and mankind are to learn from and not commit.

AhmadJoyia wrote: The notion of "spiritually inspired" texts can't be entertained with so many anonymous authorships in the Biblical books that spiritual inspiration is essentially a lable only through blind faith. In this sense, I think, the question of believing or not believing on Bible, is immaterial. Isn't it?

It is not immaterial to those who believe the Bible. It is difficult to have a discourse of the correctness of a religion if you do not have a basic understanding of that religion.

When I first began to study Islam I found that aspect to be troublesome. Muslims would tell me, well Christians believe _ _ _ _ , but they had no real knowledge of this and were often incorrect, much the same way that many Christians claim to know what Muslims believe without real knowledge.

It is the same principle as knowledge of the law. You cannot be a successful defense lawyer unless you fully understand the laws that your client is accused of. Whether you believe those laws to be fair or not is immaterial, they exist.

Greetings Angela.

May I ask what prompted you to leave the Orthodox CHurch for the Church of LDS?

(perhaps you could reply in a new thread if you do not mind talking about it)

Angela wrote: Mishmish, though I don't take offense to you using the example, I do get upset with the insistence in using my church as an example in a cult.  Katherine, you wrote:  "However, it is a relief to know that YOU do not believe that Jesus is the son of God, for that is a corruption of God's word and an untruth. Although why the Bible states that Jesus is God's "one and only begotten son" I do not know. There is no need to put "YOU" in CAPS.  All Christians believe as I do.  I gave you the websites to read.  Did you read them?" If you look at my Avatar you notice that I have a Russian Orthodox Cross, this was my faith prior to being baptized a Mormon.  I Got the Following from the OCA (Orthodox Church of America) website.   The Trinity   QUESTION: You have mentioned Christ, the Holy Spirit and God the Father. Can you say something more about the Trinity? ANSWER: According to the Orthodox teaching, God is always and forever unknowable and incomprehensible to creatures. Even in the eternal life of the Kingdom of God -- heaven , as we say -- men will never know the essence of God, that is, what God really is in Himself. But we believe and confess that God the "ineffable, inconceivable, incomprehensible, ever-existing God," to use the words of the Orthodox liturgy, has made Himself known to creatures. He has revealed Himself in the creation of man and the world, in the Old Testament Law and the Prophets, and fully and perfectly in Christ through the Holy Spirit in the New Testament Church. In every way that God reveals Himself, He does so through His Son (or Word-Logos) and through the Holy Spirit. It is the same Son and Spirit through whom God made the world, through whom God revealed Himself in the Old Testament, through whom God enlightens and makes alive every man in the world ... that come to us personally in the New Testament Church. The Son comes as a man in the person of Jesus Christ -- we have discussed this already. The Spirit comes to those who believe in Christ in order to make them sons of God in Him. Thus we have always and everywhere God the Father, the Son of God who comes as Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. In the Orthodox Church we confess that these three are not three competitive gods, divided, and separated from each other. On the contrary we believe that the Father, who is the Source of all that exists, always has His Son and His Spirit who are not creatures, Who were not made like everything and everyone else, but Who exist eternally with Him; from, in and by His very own divine being. Thus what God the Father is, the Son and the Holy Spirit also are, namely: eternal, perfect, good, wise, holy, timeless, spaceless ... divine and worthy of the title GOD. We believe as well that each of the three divine persons is divine in his own unique way, yet always living and acting in the perfectly absolute unity of the divine truth and love. Thus the Three are one not only because what they are is one and the same, but because their divine union allows of no separation or duality or division whatsoever. We must hasten to point out here that the Orthodox teaching about the Holy Trinity is not an "abstract dogma" thought up by some clever minds. It is the expression on the level of words -- which are always and of necessity inadequate to reality -- of the loving experience of God in the Church. The doctrine of the Trinity is the product of man's living communion with the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit.   The Orthodox Church, the OLDEST church in existence teaches that the Son existed with God prior to the creation of Earth and that he was born into the flesh as Jesus Christ.  You can hardly say all Christians believe as you do considering that they in fact do not.  This just isn't Mormon ideology.  I wasn't raised Mormon.  I grew up going to the Russian Orthodox Church and the Methodist Church.  In both, I was taught that Jesus Christ was the literal son of God.  I don't know what denomination you are, but obviously you've not been in a number of other denominational churches.

Just a comment on this, Everyone

"The Orthodox Church, the OLDEST church in existence teaches that the Son existed with God prior to the creation of Earth and that he was born into the flesh as Jesus Christ."

Please note that only John comes up with that philosophy. The other three gospel writers don't. 

The problem here is that people thought and analysed what and who Jesus really was. Jesus never described himself the way hundreds of learned men described him.

Best Regards

BMZ

Catherine,

From you: "

"You do not follow the commandments of Jesus Christ.  Why not if you believe that he was a prophet?"

Jesus confirmed that even an iota of the law could not be changed. Thus the Law given to Moses stood and Jesus preached and taught that Law. Please refer to NT as that confirms what I wrote above. All the Commandments were given by God Almighty to Moses. Jesus did not issue any Commandments.

From you: "If a Muslim believes in progressive revelation and I think you do, then what Jesus said about the Law and the Commandments (see Matthew Chapters 5, 6 and 7) should supercede all revelations prior to his coming.  So why don't the Muslims follow Jesus' commandments instead of the commandments in the OT?  Aren't the Muslim 10 commandments slightly different from the Old Testament's?"

Seven out of the Ten Commandments were given to Noah. Incest was exclusively forbidden even in the times of Noah. There are many Commandments given by God Almighty besides the Ten. Muslims do not have a specific figure of ten and there is no difference in the matter of the Major Commandments.

Muslims are in full agreement with Moses and also Jesus and they believe fully in "Thou shall worship only your Lord God alone."

Muslims also believe in "Thou shall love thy Lord God with all heart, mind and soul."

The key figure in above is the Lord God Almighty, Katherine.

From you: "I read somewhere how the Muslims get around charging interest.  I can't remember how it worked though.  Do businesses charge interest?  Do banks?  I wouldn't charge interest to a friend."

Muslims do not charge interest when they help friends or the poor in need. If some do, they will be responsible for their deed to God Almighty. I have never charged anyone either.

From you: "The Qur'an says that Jesus would make some things lawful that were previously unlawful.  What were they?  Christians believe that Jesus declared all foods clean."

That's a beautiful question and I like to answer that. It's very simple.

Jesus made lawful what God Almighty had already made lawful. Jesus made what the Temple Priests, Rabbis and the scholars of Torah and Thalmud had made unlawful.

Katherine, Jesus spoke in parables, he explained in his own unique style and he did that on purpose. As the Pharisees tested him and teased him with questions, he used their own style and applied the counter-punch.

An example would be when he said that it is important what comes out of one's mouth. It's not important what goes in. Here Jesus is talking about talking to people nicely, show respect, not to insult, not to carry out verbal abuse, screaming, shouting and badmouthing. 

How can that be taken as a licence to eat anything unclean which God Almighty forbade expressly with a crystal clear Commandment? Look at Jesus. He himself never ate pork with anyone. He ate mostly bread and fish.

I would like to point out here for all that I discuss Islam, Christianity and Judaism based on their Scriptures only, not even my own hadith collections or various literature from various Christian scholars. So, I discuss only from the Qur'aan, the OT/NT and the Jewish Tanakh, the Jewish Bible.

Hope this helped.

Best Regards

BMZ

I said that the Qur'an implies that Christians believe that sex was involved.  I know that the Qur'an does not say that God had sex with Mary, but it seems that the Qur'an is accusing Christians of this.  Look at these verses:

Sura 10:68, "They say (the Christians): "Allah hath begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in heaven and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!"

Sura 72:3, The truth is that - exalted be the Majesty of our Lord - He has taken unto Himself neither wife nor son,

Sura 2:116-117, They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

Sura 6:100-101, And they make the jinn associates with Allah, while He created them, and they falsely attribute to Him sons and daughters without knowledge; glory be to Him, and highly exalted is He above what they ascribe (to Him). Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things.

Sura 21:26, And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour.

If the Qur'an is not accusing Christians of believing that God had sex with Mary, then what is it accusing Christians of?  Allah cannot be confused about the Greek word monogenes because I think we would agree that God would know the meaning of Greek words.

Hi Katherine,

It's dinner time in Singapore and I will try to reply tonight if I can. Please bear with me on that.

Btw, are we in agreement on my post above that of yours?

BR

BMZ