Christians and Muslims Together
Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4351
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Topic: Christians and Muslims Together
Posted By: Meng
Subject: Christians and Muslims Together
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 11:13am
I have personally had some very good relationships with those of the Muslim faith. I, of course, totally disagree with their view that Jesus Christ is not the Word of God made flesh (in the sense that Jesus is the Second Person of a Triune Center of Being, sometimes expressed as "Trinity.")
Now, it saddens me that in the United States, for instance, Muslims have complete religious freedom. They can proselytize as much as they want - and they have won a lot of converts to the Muslim faith - mostly former Christians.
How do the Muslims here feel about the fact that Christians are not allowed to seek converts in Muslim countries? To Christians, it appears that Muslims are afraid of the Gospel of Christ.
Do you feel it's fair for Muslims to have complete freedom here, but that Christians are denied that freedom in Muslim nations?
------------- I believe in Jesus
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Replies:
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 11:35am
Meng,
When we discuss the freedom to proseltyze beliefs towards others we must understand how this is done so. As a Muslim I remember many Christians proseltyzing me saying that because of my beliefs "I'm going ot hell" with this in mind what country would allow such acts to occur? To answer your question the rejection of Christians proseltyzers in some Muslim lands is from the laws of that country as well as some interpretations of Qur'an and hadith although I'm not sure on the specifics. Christians anmd Jews living in Muslim lands have the freedom to practice their faith but not the freedom to share that because, in my opinion religion is a personal conviction not meant to be an infraction.
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Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 11:41am
Meng wrote:
I have personally had some very good relationships with those of the Muslim faith.� I, of course, totally disagree with their view that Jesus Christ is not the Word of God made flesh (in the sense that Jesus is the Second Person of a Triune Center of Being, sometimes expressed as "Trinity.")
Now, it saddens me that in the United States, for instance, Muslims have complete religious freedom.� They can proselytize as much as they want - and they have won a lot of converts to the Muslim faith - mostly former Christians.
How do the Muslims here feel about the fact that Christians are not allowed to seek converts in Muslim countries?� To Christians, it appears that Muslims are afraid of the Gospel of Christ.
Do you feel it's fair for Muslims to have complete freedom here, but that Christians are denied that freedom in Muslim nations?�
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Korean missionaries flock to the Middle East and Muslim countries
Many South Korean Christians, as first reported by the BBC, have now taken aim at the volatile Middle East in an effort to convert people in these predominantly Muslim countries to Christianity. Public recognition of this growing movement first started with kidnapping of Korean missionaries in Iraq, and people have since grown to realise the emerging fervor of Korean Christians. Many do not fear the danger of present fighting between Muslim extremists and American soldiers, but instead welcome it as an opportunity to evangelise civilians caught in the middle.
Huh Min-yong, who was one of several Koreans kidnapped, said after returning to Seoul, "We must go to Iraq and the Middle East even if we become martyrs," he says. "We must plant the cross so true peace can come. Spreading the word of Jesus can only be done with blood and sacrifice."
Charles Scanlon writes in the BBC that over 12,000 South Korean missionaries are presently active, some of which are evangelising in Muslim countries. One missionary located in Indonesia told Scanlon, "I invited 150 Muslim children to my house on Christmas Day. I gave them gifts and preached the gospel. But afterwards some of their parents came and threatened to kill me. After that I had to be more careful.� Still, many missionaries are unafraid of the opposition and threats of death from extremists in Muslim countries. Often, churches send out missionaries in the hundreds.
Many more missionaries are active, but are not disclosed due to a need to protect the lives of these crucial missionaries in hostile countries.
Gary Ng
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Posted By: Meng
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 1:41pm
When my own daughter was stationed in Saudi Arabia, she was not allowed to bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia (although, she did smuggle one in, as did other Christians). Why, if Muslims honor Jesus and His Gospel, do Muslims not allow Christians to bring their Bibles into Saudi Arabia? Are Christian missionaries allowed into Saudi Arabia?
------------- I believe in Jesus
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Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 1:55pm
Meng wrote:
When my own daughter was stationed in Saudi Arabia, she was not allowed to bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia (although, she did smuggle one in, as did other Christians).� Why, if Muslims honor Jesus and His Gospel, do Muslims not allow Christians to bring their Bibles into Saudi Arabia? Are Christian missionaries allowed into Saudi Arabia?�
� |
one cannot imagine Muslims building a mosque inside the Vatican. Or Jews building a synagogue inside the Vatican. When the practice of religion is concerned, the regulation is that people can practice their religion in their homes any way they like. Without any hindrance. And that is the regulation in the kingdom.
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Posted By: Meng
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 2:03pm
I understand what you are saying, but must disagree. In order to practice our faith, Christians need a Bible. The Bible, like the Quran, is an intricate part of our faith system. We read from the Bible and meditate on its words. Therefore, when Saudi customs confiscates Bibles and trashes them (and they do throw them away - how disrespectful is that?), they are depriving Christians of an important feature of their faith.
I don't agree that bringing a Bible into the "kingdom" is equal to building a mosque in the Vatican. However, I wouldn't be against Muslims building a mosque there if they so choose.
There is no compulsion in religion, right? Why trash Bibles? Why treat Christians as inferiors in Mohammed's own country. After all, Mohammed, himself, was married to a Christian, was he not?
------------- I believe in Jesus
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Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 2:07pm
I dont know about bible.Maybe its a saudi rule or something.
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Posted By: Meng
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 2:19pm
When our soldiers were sent over there in the Gulf War they were warned not to take a Bible. Isn't that something? You'd think that our government would have defended their soldiers' right to have their own Scriptures.
They were also warned against "witnessing" to Muslims. How ironic that a Muslim approached my daughter and spoke about the Gospel!
------------- I believe in Jesus
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 2:28pm
(Warning, the following is not intended to insult Islam)
Meng, it is really appropriate or responsible to send Missionaries into countries where the following could happen.
A.) They are killed.
B.) The converts are killed.
C.) They would be causing conflict in families, tribes and villages.
The sad fact is many of the more tribal or uneducated Muslims believe firmly (although falsely) that the punishment for apostacy is death.
By teaching these people the Gospel and possibly having them accept it, you are endangering their lives and potentially their families lives.
God is merciful and loving. He is not going to send people to hell just because they never heard the word of Christ. But those who bring harm to others through their actions will have to face God on judgement day for those actions.
Saudi Arabia is home to the two holiest sites in Islam and is also the seat of a very very strict interpretation of Islamic Sharia. If they do not wish to have their society disrupted by Missionaries then they have that right. They were not founded on freedom of religion and we cannot force our western values on their society.
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Posted By: Meng
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 2:47pm
Angela, are you saying that Christians shouldn't be allowed to bring their own Bibles into an Islamic country? The point of this post was this: should Christians be allowed the same freedom in Islamic countries that Muslims enjoy in this country.
Actually, I'd rather hear from Muslims on this matter. They really need to think it through. I'm aware of the dangers of proselytizing in Muslim countries - that's the whole point of this thread.
------------- I believe in Jesus
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 3:21pm
Meng wrote:
I understand what you are saying, but must disagree. In order to practice our faith, Christians need a Bible. The Bible, like the Quran, is an intricate part of our faith system. We read from the Bible and meditate on its words. Therefore, when Saudi customs confiscates Bibles and trashes them (and they do throw them away - how disrespectful is that?), they are depriving Christians of an important feature of their faith.
I don't agree that bringing a Bible into the "kingdom" is equal to building a mosque in the Vatican. However, I wouldn't be against Muslims building a mosque there if they so choose.
There is no compulsion in religion, right? Why trash Bibles? Why treat Christians as inferiors in Mohammed's own country. After all, Mohammed, himself, was married to a Christian, was he not?
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I agree, however I challenge our co-religionist in the understanding of Abraham. The movtivation of Christian missionaries in my personal opinion is not intellectual sharing but from being zealots. As I have said before the Christian mindset is to "save" the people from eternal damnation. I have challenged many Christians according to their idea of God's mercy and all have failed. Like most religions one group believes the others going to hell. The only Christian sect that believes in the universality of God's message are Catholics who believe that all humans regardless of religious sect has a chance to reach God's love.
Now I'm sure you do not belong to the Catholic church but again this is why many Muslim countries do not allow missionaries. However I do not agree in not educating ourselves of the Bible as I believe it is considered literature. I believe that any person of any religion has the right to free speech in America, or any country that promotes free speech however it is not immoral that a country has a law prohibiting that right from others of different faiths. I have had my rights impede on by Christians telling me constantly and all the time I'm going to hell, so yes I do support a country not allowing Christian proseltyze to occur.
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Posted By: Katherine
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 3:32pm
Meng wrote:
When our soldiers were sent over there in the Gulf War
they were warned not to take a Bible. Isn't that something?
You'd think that our government would have defended their soldiers'
right to have their own Scriptures.
They were also warned against "witnessing" to Muslims. How
ironic that a Muslim approached my daughter and spoke about the Gospel!
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I remember a story of a couple in my area who went to Saudi Arabia
on a trip, not to preach the gospel but for another reason. Their
Bibles were taken from them before they deplaned.
I also know of a man in Saudi Arabia who is a secret Christian. He cannot worship in the faith of his choice.
I do not understand this. What if this was the case in other
countries such as the USA? What would Muslims have to say about
that? I would think that they would be up in arms. No pun
intended.
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Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 3:32pm
Meng wrote:
When our soldiers were sent over there in the Gulf War they were warned not to take a Bible.� Isn't that something? |
This is because US government is smart. They didn't wanted to give the notion of "War on Islam, US soldiers found carrying cross" or something like that.
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 4:13pm
It's called "cultural sensitivity AK" not some other hidden agenda...
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Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 5:00pm
Assalamu Alaikum:
The United States was founded on the principle of religious freedom. Saudi Arabia was not. They are a sovereign government and can choose what they will and will not allow in their country. Speculating as to whether this is correct behavior or not makes no difference to them and will change nothing.
Now, what I find really interesting is that in the United States, a country founded on religious freedom, so many religious groups are so anti-Islam. So openly anti-Islam. As a concerned person, that would bother me more than what some other country is or isn't doing.
------------- It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 5:51pm
Peace,
I think Mismish right, we can not compare Saudi and us. In that sense perhaps Saudi is comparable with Vatican.
However we also have to note that Vatican position in catholic community totally different with Saudi position in Muslim community. Vatican has hierarchy position. So Vatican's position on a certain issue will represent and followed by Catholics world wide. But not Saudi. Even many Muslims are not happy with Saudi's policy on many issues, however it's their right we can not and should not complaint.
So it's not appropriate to generalize that Saudi position is the Muslim position. Many muslim countries has different apporoaches compare with Saudi. Such as in Indonesia, Malaysia and Pakistan and other Muslim countries there are ten of thousands churches, Catholic schools, Christian schools, Catholic/Christian hospitals etc. The percentage of the institutions way more than the percentage of the Christian/Catholic populations.
However we understand that Saudi issue is the perfect ammunition for our brother and sister missionaries.
------------- Salam/Peace,
Semar
"We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH)
"1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
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Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 6:50pm
I do not believe Muhammad ever confiscated bibles or persecuted Christian
missionaries.
This is clearly another innovation by Wahabis.
------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 7:49pm
Meng wrote:
When our soldiers were sent over there in the Gulf War they were warned not to take a Bible. Isn't that something? You'd think that our government would have defended their soldiers' right to have their own Scriptures.
They were also warned against "witnessing" to Muslims. How ironic that a Muslim approached my daughter and spoke about the Gospel! |
This is wrong argument by pinning Saudi arabia as an example, when the missionary activities in many countries where the large muslim community residing were so aggressive without sensitivity. Maybe that was in the past.
You can't introduce an alien dogma to the people, they will resist. When Islam is offered to the christians, they don't find it as an offensive foe. But what you are offering is an alien ideology which I could not comprehand. I read the bible and made an attempt to understand it as much as I can, and I think I understand the point of it. I join the christian discussion forums for almost a year. Instead of being converted into christianity actually I changed quite few of them into viewing christianity differently, into better christians.
Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah.-----------(QS. 3:64)
An honest approach will always find receptive friendly host. If I want to convert them I could but I did not want it. They believe with their honest heart and I am happy with that.
Now think about your motive, is the sight of heaven is in your mind where you can see the sinners are burning in hell? Do you find it so pleasant to see those wrong doers screaming in pain?
Now you are hell bent to resque them from eternal damnation - if they refuse your approach what are you going to do? OR what did you do?
People are selfish you know, and you are not an exception. Do you want to go to heavan? When he come you want to show him how good you are, am I right?
His teaching should not be easily washed away by the incoming fierce onslought. He says that it liken the house that built upon the rock, very solid. Look at Europe, the proof for all to see.
wrote:
I, of course, totally disagree with their view that Jesus Christ is not the Word of God made flesh (in the sense that Jesus is the Second Person of a Triune Center of Being, sometimes expressed as "Trinity.") |
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 April 2006 at 11:19pm
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 5:47am
I checked with the Saudi Consulate in Singapore about this issue. He confirmed that each Christian is allowed to bring in a Bible for his/her reading.
A Christian is not allowed to bring in cartons of the Bible.
BMZ
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Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 5:49am
I forgot to add the following, which I suspect will come at a later stage:
The Saudi Consulate also confirmed that no cross worn by any Christain is taken away. They are allowe to waer that.
BMZ
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Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 5:52am
Evangelists preaching in Islamic countries
Oh, please go to Pakistan, Malaysia and Indonesia and see the Evangelists, preachers and Christian missionaries at work.
BMZ
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 7:43am
Thanks for the update bmzsp I didn't know that
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Posted By: Meng
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 7:47am
Well, the Saudis may have changed their rules in the last few years, but I am in touch with many soldiers who have experienced the same deal - confiscation of Bibles - having to hide them to get through customs - plus I have read reports of Christians having their Bibles confiscated and trashed when entering Saudi Arabia. So, perhaps the Saudis are fudging on the truth here (it won't be the first time).
Also, I have read the posts here saying Christians are constantly telling Muslims they are going to hell? Exactly what type of Christians are these Muslims talking to? When sharing Christ and the Gospel with Muslims or any other group, a Christian would never threaten that person with Hell - we do not determine who goes to Hell, God does.
"Jesus did say that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no man cometh to the Father but by Him (Jesus)." During this Holy Week season, we remember these words, and the fact that Jesus overcame death and the grave, and rose again to vindicate His Words. This is what we share with Muslims - not threats of Hell.
------------- I believe in Jesus
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 7:54am
Meng wrote:
Also, I have read the posts here saying Christians are constantly telling Muslims they are going to hell? Exactly what type of Christians are these Muslims talking to? When sharing Christ and the Gospel with Muslims or any other group, a Christian would never threaten that person with Hell - we do not determine who goes to Hell, God does.
"Jesus did say that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no man cometh to the Father but by Him (Jesus)." During this Holy Week season, we remember these words, and the fact that Jesus overcame death and the grave, and rose again to vindicate His Words. This is what we share with Muslims - not threats of Hell.
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I have to disagree with this. I don't know how many times I've been told by evangelist missionaries about the eternal damnation of those who do not accept Christ as their Redeemer. Needless to say, it happens in all circles. I had a set of missionaries tell me that I was damned to hell because of the life I was living while in college. I also had to go through my bosses Hotel and remove Born Again pamphlets from all the rooms and public areas. Some said anyone celebrating Halloween would go to Hell and that anyone who didn't accept Christ would go to hell. My bosses were a wonderful HINDU family and were very upset by it.
Its sad, but I've been told I was going to hell by Christian and Muslim alike.
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Posted By: Meng
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 8:00am
Angela, was that the Marrriott hotel?
I've done missionary work in Mexico, and never once threatended anybody with hell, nor can I recall any missionary that has done so. Of course, as you know, evangelical Christians believe that apart from Christ there is no salvation - but we rely on the Holy Spirit to draw people to the Lord, not threats.
How much do you know about Reformed theology, Angela? For instance, are you familiar with the concept of the perseverance of the saints, as derived from Calvinist teaching? I would be in that camp.
------------- I believe in Jesus
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 8:33am
Nope, as I said my owners were Hindu, not Mormon. Marriott is a Mormon.
I'm not saying you did that. I'm just saying it happens. There are missionaries in every group that get too zealous and end up doing more damage.
There is one Catholic woman on this board who is considering reverting to Islam. I don't blame her, the Evangelical missionaries in Malaysia have been threatening her and really made a bad representation of what its to be Christlike.
The best Missionary work is not what I call bible thumping or other people call witnessing. The best Missionary work I find is being myself, staying faithful and doing service for service's sake.
I've been asked more about my faith because those that know me saw a change.
However, missionaries going into areas to spread the word of God don't understand that they aren't always welcomed and they get pushy in there message.
(on a side note, my protestant philosophy is rather limited due to a alcoholic/child molesting minister in a Methodist Church. I'm much more educated in my current faith due to 5 years of study before baptism and Eastern Orthodox theology since I had two really great priests.)
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Posted By: Meng
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 9:51am
Angela, you are familiar with the missionary army of the Mormon church, right? You are familiar with the fact that, according to the BOM, all Christian Churches and their creeds are an abomination in God's sight, right?
I don't know about missionaries in Malaysia. But as a Christian, I would tell the individual (the Catholic lady) who is considering returning to Islam this:
Consider Jesus. Forget about denominations, Churches, rules, laws, etc. But consider Jesus. Read His Words, for they were spoken for you. Jesus went to the cross for you. And He rose again to give you life. Consider Him, and ask Him into your life.
------------- I believe in Jesus
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Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 10:51am
Meng wrote:
Angela, you are familiar with the missionary army of the Mormon church, right? You are familiar with the fact that, according to the BOM, all Christian Churches and their creeds are an abomination in God's sight, right?
I don't know about missionaries in Malaysia. But as a Christian, I would tell the individual (the Catholic lady) who is considering returning to Islam this:
Consider Jesus. Forget about denominations, Churches, rules, laws, etc. But consider Jesus. Read His Words, for they were spoken for you. Jesus went to the cross for you. And He rose again to give you life. Consider Him, and ask Him into your life.
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Meng: Once again you proselytizing and this will not be allowed. This is your last warning!
------------- It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 11:04am
Why should she? Each woman or man is to search their conscious for the truth? If she finds God through Islam and it makes her a better person. Then God bless her. A little know fact is Mormonism believes there will be members of all faiths in heaven.
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Posted By: Meng
Date Posted: 12 April 2006 at 11:06am
Angela, well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the issue of the necessity of faith in Christ. I'm sure you're familiar with the vs. stating that Jesus in the Only Way.
------------- I believe in Jesus
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Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 8:25am
Angela wrote:
Why should she? Each woman or man is to search their conscious for the truth? If she finds God through Islam and it makes her a better person. Then God bless her. A little know fact is Mormonism believes there will be members of all faiths in heaven. |
Interesting that a Mormon would advise a person to become a Muslim because she has found God in Islam. I'm going to bring this up to some Mormon friends and see what they say about it - I think you're way out of line here. And the Muslims on this site should consider for one moment that this represents an evangelical Christian point of view.
Let's consider this: would a Muslims tell another Muslim to become a Mormon because they have found God in Mormonism. I doubt it highly. Which means, in this case, that the Muslims have a higher regard for their beliefs than the Mormons have for Jesus.
------------- Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.
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Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 8:27am
Please note that the final sentence in the first paragraph of my post above should read, "And the Muslims on this site should NOT consider for one moment that this represent an evangelical Christian point of view." Sorry about that - typing too fast.
------------- Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 8:37am
Are you aware that Mormon missionaries are forbidden to proselyte to Muslims? Or our Articles of Faith?
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535�541
noscript - 1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
noscript - 2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam�s transgression.
noscript - 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
noscript - 4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
noscript - 5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
noscript - 6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
noscript - 7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
noscript - 8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
noscript - 9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
noscript - 10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
noscript - 11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
noscript - 12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
noscript - 13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul�We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
JOSEPH SMITH.
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Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 8:51am
I thought that this was a site for Christians and Muslims to interact, but here we have a Mormon posting their Articles of Faith. What these articles don't tell you is that the Mormon belief system incorporates "shirk" into their religion. They say that there are many gods - and that the gods are both male and female. They believe that the god of this world is named Elohim, and that he and his wives produced spirit babies in a pre-mortality, who took on bodies and became men and women on earth. So, Muslims have absolutely nothing in common with this aberrant belief system. Christians and Jews are monotheistic - even if we do disagree about the Triune nature of the Godhead.
Here is the real truth about what the Mormon church teaches about salvation - written by one of their own "apostles.":
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670.)
------------- Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 9:38am
In another thread, I have repeatedly posted that the book Mormon Doctrine has been denounced by the church as full of mistakes and inaccuracies.
Why is it that after 9 months of being here in relative peace I have ever evangelical christian attacking me and my faith?
I have never once tried to proselyte here, I have only come to learn. There is no need for you to be in here denouncing my faith. I posted the AoF so you could see that Mormons do not believe in forcing their faith on others. We teach and do missionary work, but if you don't want to listen, you don't have to listen.
I highly doubt with your narrow mind that you have LDS friends. Now, please leave me alone.
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Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 9:52am
I would me more than happy to leave you alone - but, I do not want my Muslim friends here to get the idea the Mormons believe that Islam is equal to Mormonism. You know as well as I that that is a deception, as the statement I posted above indicates.
The LDS teach that there is NO SALVATION outside of the Mormon Church - period.
------------- Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 10:13am
There is a revelation by Brigham Young on what the afterlife will be like, in it he states that there will be members of other faiths in heaven. But we have varying degrees of heaven. Of course, in our beliefs you can only attain the highest level if you are LDS, but there is a lessor degree of glory which is still a degree of glory for good people who didn't accept the restored gospel.
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Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 10:23am
You are just copping out, Angela. You know what Mormons teach about Christians; Also, you know that the highest form of Mormon salvation means evolving into a god or goddess, having your own world to rule over, and having eternal sex to produce spirit babies. Are the Muslims here aware of that? Also, your own "prophet," Joe Smith said this about Christians and salvation.:
"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" - Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270 |
------------- Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 10:41am
A Latter-day Saint Perspective on Muhammad
By http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00000.htm - Viewing Muhammad from the understanding of the restored gospel provides greater knowledge of Heavenly Father�s love for His children in all nations.
James A. Toronto, �A Latter-day Saint Perspective on Muhammad,� Ensign, Aug. 2000, 51 Recently I received a phone call from two Church members in Los Angeles who had become acquainted with a Muslim neighbor from Pakistan. When they shared with him the story of Joseph Smith�s First Vision, his response surprised them. After stating that Muslims accept no prophets after Muhammad, he said that Joseph Smith�s story shared similarities with Muhammad�s. He said, �We believe Muhammad encountered a divine messenger who informed him of his new calling as prophet. He received revelations of new scripture that contains God�s word to mankind, and he established a community of believers that developed into a major world religion.� Knowing little about Muslims and Islam http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00001.htm - * or about Muhammad, the members were unsure in their responses.
The issues raised by this experience imply a broader question that is relevant for all Latter-day Saints in view of the Church�s global presence and the increasingly pluralistic societies in which we all live: What is an appropriate Latter-day Saint attitude toward other religions� claims of divinely inspired prophets, scriptures, visions, and miracles? The following may be helpful and is based on gospel insights I have gained over the years while studying and living in Muslim societies. Seeing Muhammad�s role in religious history from the perspective of the restored gospel provides great understanding of one of history�s most influential spiritual leaders, helps us appreciate Heavenly Father�s love for His children of all nations, and gives principles to guide us in building positive relations with friends and neighbors of other faiths.
Thoughts on Interfaith Relations
President Gordon B. Hinckley has consistently advocated dialogue and mutual respect in interfaith relations. He has admonished members of the Church to cultivate �a spirit of affirmative gratitude� for those of differing religious, political, and philosophical persuasions, adding that �we do not in any way have to compromise our theology� in the process. He gave this counsel: �Be respectful of the opinions and feelings of other people. Recognize their virtues; don�t look for their faults. Look for their strengths and their virtues, and you will find strength and virtues that will be helpful in your own life.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00002.htm - 1
President Hinckley�s emphasis on building interfaith understanding is rooted in fundamental gospel principles�humility, charity, respect for eternal truth, and recognition of God�s love for all mankind�taught by Jesus Christ and by ancient and modern prophets. The Savior repeatedly affirmed Heavenly Father�s boundless concern for the well-being of each of His sons and daughters, as in the parable of the lost sheep (see http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/15 - Luke 15 ). In the parable of the good Samaritan, He taught that one of the keys to true discipleship is to treat others kindly and compassionately in spite of political, racial, or religious differences (see http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/10/25-37#25 - Luke 10:25�37 ). He denounced intolerance and rivalry among religious groups and the tendency to extol one�s own virtues and deprecate the spiritual status of others. Addressing a parable to those who �trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others,� Jesus condemned the pride of the Pharisee who prayed, �God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are� and commended the humility of the publican who implored, �God be merciful to me a sinner� (see http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/18/9-14#9 - Luke 18:9�14 ).
The Book of Mormon teaches that Heavenly Father �is mindful of every people, whatsoever land they may be in; � and his bowels of mercy are over all the earth� ( http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/26/37#37 - Alma 26:37 ; see also http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/1/14#14 - 1 Ne. 1:14 ). Because of this love for His children of all nations, the Lord has provided spiritual light to guide and enrich their lives. Elder Orson F. Whitney (1855�1931) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles observed that God �is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00003.htm - 2
Elder B. H. Roberts (1857�1933) of the Seventy also spoke on this doctrine: �While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men; and it is one of God�s instrumentalities for making known the truth yet he is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. God raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend. � All the great teachers are servants of God; among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God�s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00004.htm - 3
The Prophet Joseph Smith often expounded on this theme of the universality of God�s love and the related need to remain open to all available sources of divine light and knowledge. �One of the grand fundamental principles of �Mormonism,� � he said, �is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00005.htm - 4 The Prophet exhorted Church members to �gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00006.htm - 5
Church leaders continually have encouraged members to foster amicable relations with people of other faiths by acknowledging the spiritual truth they possess, emphasizing the similarities in belief and lifestyle, and teaching us to disagree agreeably. Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915�85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles spoke on this theme to members and nonmembers during an area conference in Tahiti: �Keep all the truth and all the good that you have. Do not abandon any sound or proper principle. Do not forsake any standard of the past which is good, righteous, and true. Every truth found in every church in all the world we believe. But we also say this to all men�Come and take the added light and truth that God has restored in our day. The more truth we have, the greater is our joy here and now; the more truth we receive, the greater is our reward in eternity.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00007.htm - 6
During October 1991 general conference, President Howard W. Hunter of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said: �As members of the Church of Jesus Christ, we seek to bring all truth together. We seek to enlarge the circle of love and understanding among all the peoples of the earth. Thus we strive to establish peace and happiness, not only within Christianity but among all mankind.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00008.htm - 7
Likewise, Elder Russell M. Nelson quoted a public statement issued by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in October 1992, calling upon �all people everywhere to re-commit themselves to the time-honored ideals of tolerance and mutual respect. We sincerely believe that as we acknowledge one another with consideration and compassion we will discover that we can all peacefully coexist despite our deepest differences.� He then added: �That pronouncement is a contemporary confirmation of the Prophet Joseph�s earlier entreaty for tolerance. Unitedly we may respond. Together we may stand, intolerant of transgression but tolerant of neighbors with differences they hold sacred. Our brothers and sisters throughout the world are all children of God.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00009.htm - 8
Latter-day Saint Interest in Muhammad
One of the noteworthy examples of the Latter-day Saint commitment to treasure up true principles and cultivate affirmative gratitude is the admiration that Church leaders have expressed over the years for the spiritual contributions of Muhammad.
As early as 1855, at a time when Christian literature generally ridiculed Muhammad as the Antichrist and the archenemy of Western civilization, Elders George A. Smith (1817�75) and Parley P. Pratt (1807�57) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles delivered lengthy sermons demonstrating an accurate and balanced understanding of Islamic history and speaking highly of Muhammad�s leadership. Elder Smith observed that Muhammad was �descended from Abraham and was no doubt raised up by God on purpose� to preach against idolatry. He sympathized with the plight of Muslims, who, like Latter-day Saints, found it difficult �to get an honest history� written about them. Speaking next, Elder Pratt went on to express his admiration for Muhammad�s teachings, asserting that �upon the whole, � [Muslims] have better morals and better institutions than many Christian nations.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00010.htm - 9
Latter-day Saint appreciation of Muhammad�s role in history can also be found in the 1978 First Presidency statement regarding God�s love for all mankind. This declaration specifically mentions Muhammad as one of �the great religious leaders of the world� who received �a portion of God�s light� and affirms that �moral truths were given to [these leaders] by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00011.htm - 10
In recent years, respect for the spiritual legacy of Muhammad and for the religious values of the Islamic community has led to increasing contact and cooperation between Latter-day Saints and Muslims around the world. This is due in part to the presence of Latter-day Saint congregations in areas such as the Levant, North Africa, the Persian Gulf, and Southeast Asia. The Church has sought to respect Islamic laws and traditions that prohibit conversion of Muslims to other faiths by adopting a policy of nonproselyting in Islamic countries of the Middle East. Yet examples of dialogue and cooperation abound, including visits of Muslim dignitaries at Church headquarters in Salt Lake City; Muslim use of Church canning facilities to produce halal (ritually clean) food products; Church humanitarian aid and disaster relief sent to predominantly Muslim areas including Jordan, Kosovo, and Turkey; academic agreements between Brigham Young University and various educational and governmental institutions in the Islamic world; the existence of the Muslim Student Association at BYU; and expanding collaboration between the Church and Islamic organizations to safeguard traditional family values worldwide. http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00012.htm - 11 The recent initiation of the Islamic Translation Series, cosponsored by BYU and the Church, has resulted in several significant exchanges between Muslim officials and Latter-day Saint Church leaders. A Muslim ambassador to the United Nations predicted that this translation series �will play a positive role in the West�s quest for a better understanding of Islam.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00013.htm - 12
A cabinet minister in Egypt, aware of the common ground shared by Muslims and Latter-day Saints, once remarked to Elder Howard W. Hunter of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles that �if a bridge is ever built between Christianity and Islam it must be built by the Mormon Church.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00014.htm - 13 The examples of Latter-day Saint�Muslim interaction mentioned above, together with the Church�s establishment in 1989 of two major centers for educational and cultural exchange in the Middle East (Jerusalem and Amman), reflect the traditional attitude of respect for Islam that Church leaders have exhibited from earliest times. These activities represent tangible evidence of Latter-day Saint commitment to promote greater understanding of the Muslim world and witness an emerging role for the Church in helping to bridge the gap that has existed historically between Muslims and Christians.
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=id$id=ensignlp.nfo%3Ao%3A17a7$cid=ensignlp.nfo$3.0$p="> Click to View Larger Format Not shown are North America and South America, whose percentage of Muslims is less than 5 percent. North America has approximately 7 million Muslims, or 2.3 percent of the population, of which 5.5 million are in the United States. South America has approximately 1 million Muslims, accounting for 2 percent of the population. (Map by Tom Child; information courtesy of Oxford University Press.)
The Life of Muhammad
Who, then, was Muhammad, and what is there in his life and teachings that has attracted the interest and admiration of Church leaders? What strength and virtues can we find in Muslim experience that, as President Hinckley has suggested, will be helpful in our own spiritual lives?
At the dawn of the 21st century, Islam is one of the largest and fastest-growing religions in the world. Muslims currently number more than one billion (almost one-fifth of the world�s population), concentrated primarily in Southeast Asia, the Indian Subcontinent, the Middle East, and North Africa, but with significant populations located in Europe and North America. Some even project that Islam will become the most populous religion in the world during the first half of this new century. The roots of this dynamic and, for some people, misunderstood religious movement can be traced back 14 centuries to the humble beginnings and founding work of Muhammad, whom Muslims consider to be the last of a long line of prophets sent by God to teach Islam to the world.
Muhammad (Arabic, �praised�) was born in 570 C.E. http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00015.htm - 14 in Mecca, a prosperous city that was a center of caravan trade and religious pilgrimage in the northwest Arabian peninsula. Orphaned in early childhood, he lived a life of poverty as a youth, working as a herdsman for his family and neighbors, an occupation that gave him ample time and solitude to contemplate the deeper questions of life. Muhammad gained a reputation in the community as a trusted arbiter and peacemaker as indicated in the following account:
�At one time the Quraish [Muhammad�s tribe] decided to rebuild the Ka�ba [sacred shrine], to reset the stones above the foundations. In one of the corners they wanted to put the black stone, but could not decide who should have the honour of placing it there. They would have quarrelled violently if [Muhammad] the young man they all admired and trusted had not come by. They asked [him] � to settle the dispute. He told them to spread a large cloak and place the black stone in the middle. They did so. Then, he asked a man from each of the four clans who were in dispute to take hold of a corner of the cloak. In this way they all shared the honour of carrying the stone.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00016.htm - 15
At the age of 25, Muhammad married a widow, Khadija, who was 15 years his senior and a prosperous caravan merchant. She knew of his reputation for honesty and hard work, and she made the proposal of marriage that turned out to be a successful and happy one, producing four daughters and two sons. For the next 15 years Muhammad was engaged with Khadija in running the family business and raising their family. It was during this period also that he retreated often into the solitude of the desert to pray, meditate, and worship. He had become dissatisfied with the corruption, idolatry, and social inequities that plagued Mecca; he sought for a higher truth that would provide peace, justice, and spiritual fulfillment for him and his people.
In 610 C.E., when he was 40, his spiritual seeking and preparation reached a culmination. According to Islamic history, one night while Muhammad was engaged in prayer and meditation on Mount Hira near Mecca, the angel Gabriel appeared to him to deliver a message from God (Arabic, Allah). http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00017.htm - 16 Three times the angel commanded that Muhammad �Recite! In the name of thy Lord who created, created man of a blood-clot. Recite! And thy Lord is the Most Generous, who taught by the pen�Taught man that he knew not� (Qur�an 96:1�5). http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00018.htm - 17
For a period of 22 years, from 610 C.E. to his death in 632, Muhammad received communications that he said were from Allah, by way of the angel Gabriel, and that he memorized verbatim and recited orally to his disciples. These oral recitations of Allah�s mind and will are collectively referred to as al-Qur�an (�recitation�) by Muslims. However, Muhammad�s preaching against idolatry, polytheism, female infanticide, and other religious and social corruptions met fierce opposition in Mecca. His message was rejected in this early period in Mecca, and he and his fledgling community of converts, mostly a few family members and close friends, were shunned, persecuted, and even tortured.
Then a group of men came from the town Yathrib and asked Muhammad to act as an arbiter in the squabbles which were ruining their town. Muhammad saw an opportunity to alleviate the suffering of his followers and agreed to leave Mecca. First he sent his followers, and then he himself went to the town, which would thereafter be known as Madinat an-Nabi (�City of the Prophet�), or simply Medina. This emigration (Arabic, hijra), from Mecca to Medina, took place in 622 C.E., the year commemorated as the starting point of the Muslim Hijri calendar. Muslims saw in the Hijra a fundamental turning point in the life of the prophet and in the nature of the Muslim community. From being a rejected preacher, Muhammad became a statesman, legislator, judge, educator, and military leader.
In Medina, the Muslims had freedom to establish themselves securely, develop their institutions for governance and education, and become a prosperous community, in contrast to their status in Mecca as a persecuted, marginal religious minority.
A few years after the Hijra, Muhammad was able to return to the city of Mecca, where his teachings were gradually adopted. Today Mecca is considered by Muslims to be the spiritual center of Islam and the holiest of cities, with Medina as the second and Jerusalem the third holiest cities.
In 632, at the age of 62, Muhammad died unexpectedly after a short fever. By any measure Muhammad was phenomenally successful during his career, even though his name and achievements have been the subject of controversy over the centuries in Western civilization. During the last half of the 20th century, however, non-Muslim historians have become more objective and complimentary, acknowledging that Muhammad�s achievements in both political and religious realms assure him a place as one of the most influential figures in history.
Contrary to Western civilization�s stereotype of Muhammad as a false prophet or enemy of Christians, Muslim sources portray a man of unfailing humility, kindness, good humor, generosity, and simple tastes. Though he smiled often, it is said he seldom laughed because, as one famous hadith (report of Muhammad�s sayings or actions) states, �If you knew what I know you would cry much and laugh little.� His gentle humor is evident in the following story:
�One day a little old woman came to him to ask whether old wretched women would also go to Paradise. �No,� he answered, �there are no old women in Paradise!� Then, looking at her grieved face, he said with a smile: �They will all be transformed in Paradise, for there, there is only one youthful age for all!� �
He dispensed wise and practical advice to followers. When a man asked if he needed to tie his camel up, since he already trusted in God�s help and protection, Muhammad replied: �First tether it, and then trust in God.� Some reports indicate that Muhammad�s family were poor and often hungry, only able to afford coarse bread at times. His statement, faqri fakhri, �My poverty is my pride,� reveals his joy in simple pleasures, and this saying was later adopted as a slogan by Muslim ascetics. He was especially fond of children, allowing his two young grandsons to climb on his back while he was performing prayers. A man once criticized him for kissing his grandson Hasan, saying, �I have 10 boys but have never kissed any of them.� Muhammad answered, �He who does not show mercy will not receive mercy.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00019.htm - 18
In his last speech in the mosque in Medina, given on the day he died, Muhammad displayed humility and magnanimity in bidding farewell to his community after more than 30 years of sacrifice on their behalf: �If there is any man whose honour I might have injured, here I am to answer for it. If I have unjustifiably inflicted bodily harm on anyone, I present myself for retribution. If I owe anything to anyone, here is my property and he may help himself to it. � Nobody should say: �I fear enmity and rancor of the Messenger of God.� I nurse no grudge towards anyone. These things are repugnant to my nature and temperament. I abhor them so.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00020.htm - 19
With this view of Muhammad in mind, we can understand why Muslims commonly bless his name when it is mentioned in speech or writing, invoke his name in conversations, and celebrate his birthday. Pious Muslims strive to emulate his example in every aspect of life: mode of dress, style of grooming, table manners, religious rituals, and benevolence toward others.
The Teachings of Muhammad
Islamic life revolves around five basic principles that are outlined in general terms in the Qur�an and expounded in the teachings and customs (Arabic, sunna) of Muhammad. These five pillars are the witness of faith, prayer, almsgiving, fasting, and pilgrimage to Mecca. Some examples of Muhammad�s teachings on charitable giving and fasting will illustrate his manner of teaching and his central role in Muslim life.
The principle of almsgiving is designed to care for the poor and to foster empathy in the community of believers. The Qur�an states that charity and compassion, not mechanical observance of rituals, define one�s worthiness in God�s sight (2:177). Muhammad�s sayings clearly teach the practice of charity:
�None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.�
�Each person�s every joint must perform a charity every day the sun comes up: to act justly between two people is a charity; to help a man with his mount, lifting him onto it or hoisting up his belongings onto it is a charity; a good word is a charity; every step you take to prayers is a charity; and removing a harmful thing from the road is charity.�
�Charity extinguishes sin as water extinguishes fire.�
�Smiling to another person is an act of charity.�
�He who sleeps with a full stomach knowing that his neighbor is hungry [is not a believer].� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00021.htm - 20
Muslims view fasting as having a dual purpose: to bring about a state of humility and surrender of one�s soul to God, and to foster compassion and care for the poor in the community. Thus, fasting and almsgiving go hand in hand: denying of oneself cannot be complete without giving of oneself.
I was reminded of this principle among Muslims, and the profound influence of Muhammad�s example in their lives, while living in Cairo, Egypt, during the holy month of fasting, Ramadan. http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00022.htm - 21 My family and I were invited by a Muslim friend, Nabil, to participate in his family�s evening meal in which they broke their fast. As we entered their modest apartment in one of the most impoverished quarters of Cairo, I noticed that one of the rooms was occupied by numerous peasant women (distinguishable by their black clothing) and their children. They were all sitting on the floor with food spread out before them on a cloth, quietly waiting for the call to prayer that marks the end of fasting each day. When I asked if they were his relatives, he replied: �No, I don�t know any of them. It is our habit to invite strangers off the street who cannot afford good food to share our Ramadan meal. We do this because it was one of the customs of our prophet, Muhammad.�
I was deeply moved by my Muslim friend�s unselfishness and compassion for the poor, and humbled by his good example in practicing a principle that I had learned from the Bible years before but had rarely observed: �When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; � but when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee� ( http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/14/12-14#12 - Luke 14:12�14 ).
A Latter-day Saint Perspective
How, then, might Latter-day Saints regard the Muslim community? The most helpful approach is to recognize the truths and values we share with our Muslim brothers and sisters, even while politely acknowledging that theological differences exist. Certainly Latter-day Saints do not agree with Islamic teachings that deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, the need for modern prophets, or the principle of eternal progression. But by being humble and open to spiritual light wherever it may be found, we benefit from the religious insights of Muslims and affirm similarities in belief such as faith, prayer, fasting, repentance, compassion, modesty, and strong families as cornerstones of individual spirituality and community life. http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00023.htm - 22
In a recent meeting with Muslim dignitaries, Elder Neal A. Maxwell of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles focused on the common spiritual heritage of Mormons and Muslims. After quoting a verse from the Qur�an, he observed:
�God is the source of light in heaven and on earth. We share the belief with you. We resist the secular world. We believe with you that life has meaning and purpose. � We revere the institution of the family. � We salute you for your concern for the institution of the family. � Mutual respect, friendship, and love are precious things in today�s world. We feel those emotions for our Islamic brothers and sisters. Love never needs a visa. It crosses over all borders and links generations and cultures.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00024.htm - 23
The Prophet Joseph Smith, in one of his most eloquent pronouncements on tolerance and compassion, encouraged the Saints to expand their vision of the human family, to view people of other faiths and cultures as our Heavenly Father does and not according to the �narrow, contracted notions of men.� He taught that the Father will take complex personal, political, and social circumstances into account at the last day and render final judgment based on a divine, merciful perspective that surpasses our limited human understanding:
�While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of the contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes �His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.� He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, �according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil,� or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, �not according to what they have not, but according to what they have,� those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will be judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right.� http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2000.htm/ensign%20august%202000.htm/A%20Latterday%20Saint%20Perspective%20on%20Muhammad.htm/pop00025.htm - 24
In response to the interfaith dilemma raised by the Church members in Los Angeles, I was grateful to state that we belong to a church that affirms the truths taught by Muhammad and other great teachers, reformers, and religious founders. We recognize the goodness reflected in the lives of those in other religious communities. While we do not compromise revealed eternal truths of the restored gospel, we never espouse an adversarial relationship with other faiths. Rather, in accordance with modern prophetic counsel, we seek to treasure up that which is virtuous and praiseworthy in other faiths and to cultivate an attitude of �affirmative gratitude� toward them. As Latter-day Saints, we believe that it is vital to respect and benefit from the spiritual light found in other religions, while seeking humbly to share the additional measure of eternal truth provided by latter-day revelation.
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Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 10:58am
Even though it is an at times interesting read, this thread, appropriately entitled, as it is, �Christians and Muslims Together,� has managed to at least momentarily convert me to absolute secularism.
Serv
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Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 10:59am
Muslims should not be deceived by this Mormon propaganda being posted. What they don't tell you is this:
Everybody will be resurrected, this is General Salvation, through Jesus Christ.
There will be three different kinds of "salvation." Those who are evil persons and those who have rejected Mormonism, will go to the Telestial Kingdom. Only the Holy Ghost visits that kingdom.
The next highest kingdom is the Terrestial kingdom. In that kingdom, the Son of God, Jesus, visits, but Elohim the Father, doesn't go there. The Terrestial kingdom is for the average good guy who tried to do his best - this includes Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. Belief in Jesus insn't necessary to get to this kingdom. Also, those who weren't "valiant" end up in the Terrestial kingdom.
The next highest is the Celestial kingdom, which is also divided into three parts. Here you get to progress to being a god or goddess if you've been a faithful Mormon and kept all the laws and ordinances of Mormonism. Once you are 'celestialized" into a god or goddess, you get to create your own planet and rule over it. You will people it with spirit babies you produce who will become mortal beings on your planet. You also will have to set up a plan of salvation to save these spirit babies who have become mortal. A new Savior will be chosen, probably your first born spirit son (like Jesus was the first born spirit son of this planet's god, Elohim).
Now who will serve these gods and goddesses: well, the angels will. These are those who have not been married in the temple. They will forever remain angels - they don't get to become gods and goddesses.
Your post has been edited for violations.
------------- Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 11:00am
Stay there Serv. I'm thinking of reverting to the "I Don't Care" Theology. Too bad I really believe this stuff. Huh?
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 11:03am
Athanasius wrote:
You can find this all in the Mormon "holy" book called Doctrines and Covenants. It is like a Grimm's Fairy tale, I know, and Muslims should be aware that this has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. The only reason the Mormons are "making nice" with Muslims is that they want to be allowed to proselytize in Muslim countries. They've already attempted it in Israel, but the Jews got really ticked off, to say the least. Beware!
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Yeah, that's why the Israeli government let us build the BYU campus there. They are just really mad. And our Missionaries are forbidden to proselyte to Muslims.
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Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 11:33am
BYU = Missionaries. Beware! How ironic, when you understand that the Mormons think they are the true Jews (mostly from the tribe of Ephraim)! So, the true Jews (Mormons) are attempting to proselytize the Israeli Jews. How strange.
------------- Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.
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Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 11:37am
angela - what are you saying? who forbids mormons to evangelize muslims?
------------- for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 11:41am
Athanasius: You are currently in violation of the Guidelines of this Forum. If you continue to violate the rules you may be banned from posting here.
10. We will not tolerate personal attacks on participants from ANY Community (personal attacks are defined as comments that reflect upon the person instead of their opinion). Furthermore, any insults intended to ANY religion or ANY prophet of God, or ANY holy scripture shall be removed.
(Moderator Group)
------------- It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 11:49am
Moderators:
Can you remove the following?
This post has been edited.
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Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 12:23pm
Welcome to the discussions, Athanasius:
�BYU = Missionaries. Beware! How ironic, when you understand that the Mormons think they are the true Jews (mostly from the tribe of Ephraim)! So, the true Jews (Mormons) are attempting to proselytize the Israeli Jews. How strange.�
It does seem rather ironic, in a sense. But then again, as I understand, and to extend both the irony and the sense of strangeness, Christians in general, or at least the devotees of St. Paul (Galatians 4:22-31), think that they are the �child of promise,� the �true,� or �spiritual� Israel as well.
�Will the real Slim Shadey please stand up?�
When it comes to religion, and especially to the various sects of Christianity, it seems to me that ironies abound!
Serv, momentary secularist
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Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 12:36pm
Yes, Serv, it is true that Christians believe they are "spiritual" Israel. Recent DNA studies have amply proved that the American Indians, far from being Jews, are of Mongolian origin, as anthropologists have contended right along.
As far as "spiritual" Israel is concerned, there are two different views in Christian circules. One is this: Replacement theology - which teaches that the Church has replaced Israel as the chosen nation, and it has inherited all the blessings of Israel. The Second is the dispensational view which teaches that God has two separate agendas - one for the Church and another for Israel, which will be restored to its former land and accept Christ as Savior.
A third view, called preterist, is that most of prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Jewish temple was destroyed. Some preterists see that is the Second Coming, and others still look for a Second Coming. In any case, neither group sees Israel as anything special today.
Your post has been edited. This is your second warning.
------------- Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.
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Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 12:50pm
Thanks, Athanasius. In relation to the three views you mention, and if I could switch your attention from Mormonism to Christianity in general for the moment, do you have any sense of how it is that St. Paul�s conclusion in the above reference to Galatians is interpreted? What does this mean: �cast out the bondswoman [Mosaic covenant?]� and how, especially with the latter type, or �dispensational� view, can Christianity, the so-called �child of promise,� peacefully co-exist with the allegorical �child of flesh [Judaism?]?�
In the resolution of this apparent paradox might reside certain insights into Christianity�s relation to Islam, it seems to me.
Serv
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Posted By: Athanasius
Date Posted: 13 April 2006 at 1:48pm
The typology here is basically contrasting Law and Grace. The Jews believe they are saved by a righteousness of their own - which derives from keeping the Torah's commandments. In actuality, no person can keep all God's laws, and therefore, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags," in terms of anyone meriting salvation.
Of the New Covenant, Paul says, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for "The just shall live by faith., And the law is not of faith, but the man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the CURSE of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ......" Galatians 3:11-14.
Here Paul teaches the doctrine of imputed righteousness. Christ is imputed to be sin for us (cursed on the tree), that Christians might be imputed as having Christ's righteousness. It is an exchange made at the cross. The blessing of Abraham "might come," or comes on the Gentiles. In other words, the elect are now those in Christ, and have become Abraham's children by faith.
Paul is using here typologies which would be easily understood by Jewish believers - and please note, Galatians is primarily written to rebuke the attempt to Judaize the Christian Church.
In our day, we have a movement called "the Hebraic Roots movment" and also the "Noahide" movement - both attempts by Judaizers within the Church to bring believers back under Jewish law.
------------- Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.
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