How about Isaiah 53? Please note that I am quoting off my memory, so words may not be the same as those in the text. Pardon me for that.

Isaiah 53, according to the Jewish Tanakh (Jewish Bible), talks about

"The young woman shall give birth to a child who will be named Immanuel."

The Old Testament followed by the Christians says,

"The virgin shall give birth to a child.........."

The source of the above statement fondly called a prophecy is the Jewish Bible, the Jewish Tanakh but it is not the Christian OT.

Also, the child was never named Immanuel. Any comments from our learned Christian friends? Why does the statement differ in the two Bibles? Note that the Jews do not accept the OT of Christians and do not even read that.

Best Regards & Salaams to all

BMZ

bmzsp wrote: How about Isaiah 53? Please note that I am quoting off my memory, so words may not be the same as those in the text. Pardon me for that. Isaiah 53, according to the Jewish Tanakh (Jewish Bible), talks about "The young woman shall give birth to a child who will be named Immanuel." The Old Testament followed by the Christians says, "The virgin shall give birth to a child.........." The source of the above statement fondly called a prophecy is the Jewish Bible, the Jewish Tanakh but it is not the Christian OT. Also, the child was never named Immanuel. Any comments from our learned Christian friends? Why does the statement differ in the two Bibles? Note that the Jews do not accept the OT of Christians and do not even read that. Best Regards & Salaams to all BMZ

1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.

3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.

9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:

11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

This particular Chapter was almost unamimously considered Messianic in first century Judaism.  You will find that Jews today deny this and consider this Chapter to refer to the  nation of Israel, but there are reasons why this cannot be.

This particular Chapter has brought many, many Jews to believe that Jesus was, indeed, their Messiah, their King Messiah.

This is the same Chapter that the Jews translated from the Greek:

Isaiah 53

 1 Who has believed our report?
      And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
       2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
      And as a root out of dry ground.
      He has no form or comeliness;
      And when we see Him,
      There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
       3 He is despised and rejected by men,
      A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
      And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
      He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
       4 Surely He has borne our griefs
      And carried our sorrows;
      Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
      Smitten by God, and afflicted.
       5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
      He was bruised for our iniquities;
      The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
      And by His stripes we are healed.
       6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
      We have turned, every one, to his own way;
      And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
       7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
      Yet He opened not His mouth;
      He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
      And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
      So He opened not His mouth.
       8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
      And who will declare His generation?
      For He was cut off from the land of the living;
      For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
       9 And they made His grave with the wicked�
      But with the rich at His death,
      Because He had done no violence,
      Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
       10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
      He has put Him to grief.

      When You make His soul an offering for sin,
      He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
      And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
       11 He shall see the labor of His soul,and be satisfied.
      By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
      For He shall bear their iniquities.
       12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
      And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
      Because He poured out His soul unto death,
      And He was numbered with the transgressors,
      And He bore the sin of many,
      And made intercession for the transgressors.

Where is the part about the virgin?

I am sorry for the mistake but you could have found out easily what I was referring to!.

Please read Isaiah 7:14 in the Jewish scripture and then read Isaiah 7:14 in the OT of the Christian Bible.

Hope to hear from you as to why the changes were made to the Jewish text which was there far before even the Christian Bible was compiled.

BR

BMZ

Katherine,

From you:"The Jewish Scriptures translated from the Greek were translated by Jews.  Do you think they made a mistake translating their own scriptures?"

BMZ: Katherine, The Jewish scriptures were originally in Hebrew and Greek was not spoken in the time of Moses and Abraham.

From you: "Am I mistaken?  I thought that Muslims believed that Jesus was born of a virgin?  Are you denying that?"

BMZ: You have not answered my post. Muslims believe 100% that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus.

My post has a different query. The Jews, from whose Book was the Christian OT copied or compiled, used the term 'young woman' of Isaiah's family. They did not use and do not use the term 'virgin girl or the virgin'. The young woman they refer to is a married lady of Isaiah's family. And why was Jesus not named Immanuel, if it were commanded?

I think the Jews should have more knowledge about their scripture than the Christians who borrowed it from the Jews. I cannot accept that God's words were given to Moses and Jesus in Greek.

From you: "Since you brought Isaiah 53 up.  What do you think about what I said about this Chapter?"

I will look into that later.

BR

BMZ

The Septuagint version of the Old Testament, was translated by seventy Jewish scholars (thus the name Septuagint) from the Hebrew to Greek.  This was before the time of Christ, and was the version commonly used in the Holy Land when the Lord Jesus walked the earth.

The New Testament was originally written in koine Greek, the universal language used at the time of the Apostles.  Although the native language of the Apostles was Aramaic, Greek was their second language, and the language generally used in correspondence.

Thanks, Katherine.

I have three Christian Bibles and a Jewish Scripture at home. I have discussed with Rabbis who confirm that the Christian OT has wrongly translated the word almah into "Virgin".

Do you happen to know what is the true Hebrew word for Virgin?

BR

BMZ

Hi Meng, thanks for your comment but dear Jesus did not speak, discussed, argued, preached and addressed in Greek.

He spoke Aramaic, which is evident from the his last words of despair, "Eli, Eli, Lama sabachtani" the only words in Aramaic, quoted in the Bible.

There was thus a double or a triple translation; first from Aramaic and Hebrew into Koine Greek and then back into Hebrew and Aramaic and finally into English. This has resulted in a great loss of the meanings during translations, I suspect.

The argument that everything was translated from Koine Greek does not hold any water.

BR

BMZ

Hello bmzsp:  I agree with you that the Lord's native language was Aramaic.  Being a Jew, he also read, spoke and understood Hebrew, since this was used int he synagogue and Temple.

But, as far as the written language of the era, this was koine Greek.  This was the language of correspondence, and the New Testament is correspondence.  We must not limit the people of that era to our standards - they were well versed in more than one language.

For instance, early in the Christian era, Latin became the language of not only conquest, but also of correspondence.  It was common for the educated to know, say, French and Latin - and Latin was used to correspond with those in other countries. 

Besides, as Christians we believe that the Holy Spirit of God, the Third Person of the Tripersonal Godhead, inspired and protected the creation of the Holy Scriptures - both the Old and New Testaments, and that they are without doctrinal error.

Hi Meng,

Greetings!

You may please address me as BMZ. I use that nick to write on another forum known as Islam-Online.

I could not get BMZ registered here with only three letters, hence I added 'sp', short for Singapore.

Thanks & BR

BMZ

Fine, Katherine.

From you: "John 7: 35 Then the Jews said among themselves, �Where does He intend to go that we shall not find Him? Does He intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks?"

From NIV:

"Where does this man intend to go that we cannot find him? Will he go where our people live scattered among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks?"

If you read the prelude in John 7:33, it is quite clear that he said somethingelse.

People living scattered among Greeks shows that the majority in the area were definitely Greeks and that area should have  been SOME distance away.

BR

BMZ

bmzsp, you are not understanding history.  Palestine was part of the Roman empire.  Not only was ancient Latin used in conversation and writing, but so was Greek.  Many used an emanuensis for the preparation of correspondence - and you can see this throughout the Pauline epistles - as well as the Johannine writings (other than Revelation, which was written in a very simple koine Greek, probably by the Apostle John himself, without an emanuensis).

But, what is your point?  Are you saying that the Jewish and Christian Scriptures do not prophesy the Virgin birth?

To: Katherine and Meng

Hi,

If you read my first opening post, my question still has not been answered.

We are not discussing languages. The messages of God were not given to Prophets in Greek or English. The best understanding of verses of all scriptures should come from the languages they were delivered in.

An example: When I read and understand Qur'aan in it's glorious Arabic, I understand it better. If the text in it's original language is read, it gives a better meaning and can be understood well.

Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic are very close as they are Semitic languages. There are many, many common words among them.

My main point is that throughout the Jewish history, the Jewish Scripture contains the words "young woman" only and not "young virgin or virgin", while the Christian OT contains "Virgin". Why did the Christians change that? If you take any Jewish Bible, you will find what I have written that is "young woman", not "virgin".

I believe it was done on purpose to justify a prophecy for Jesus. Thus the verse was forged. That is what I am implying.

BR

BMZ

To: Katherine and Meng

Hi,

If you read my first opening post, my question still has not been answered.

We are not discussing languages. The messages of God were not given to Prophets in Greek or English. The best understanding of verses of all scriptures should come from the languages they were delivered in.

An example: When I read and understand Qur'aan in it's glorious Arabic, I understand it better. If the text in it's original language is read, it gives a better meaning and can be understood well.

Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic are very close as they are Semitic languages. There are many, many common words among them.

My main point is that throughout the Jewish history, the Jewish Scripture contains the words "young woman" only and not "young virgin or virgin", while the Christian OT contains "Virgin". Why did the Christians change that? If you take any Jewish Bible, you will find what I have written that is "young woman", not "virgin".

I believe it was done on purpose to justify a prophecy for Jesus. Thus the verse was forged. That is what I am implying.

BR

BMZ

Athanasius,

From you: "We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are without doctrinal error because God is able to transmit His Words to man, by the Holy Spirit's power, and not contingent upon the inferior abilities of men.

Do you think God is not able to transmit his words to man by his own power? Why does God need the Holy Spirit's power? Doesn't that insinuate that God is so weak and the Holy Spirit is more powerful?

BMZ

That was my next step but you brought it up first. I was coming to it.

From you: "bmz - how did allah transmit his words to muhammad? was it not by jibreel? does not this indicate that allah is weak and jibreel is more powerful?  this is only a mirror image so to speak of your own question."

Exactly! But first read Athanasius' comment very carefully: ""We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are without doctrinal error because God is able to transmit His Words to man, by the Holy Spirit's power, and not contingent upon the inferior abilities of men."

The above remark shows as if Holy Spirit's power is more.

The Holy Spirit was none other than the Angel of the Lord, named Gabriel, who appeared to many Prophets and Mary. Gabriel is the Messenger of God and he carried the messages.  Gabriel can also be called a a true servant of God.

Are you with me on this or do you still believe that the Holy Spirit is somethingelse?

May I ask you a question here. According to the NT, one can blaspheme against God and the son but one cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Is the Holy Spirit superior to the Father and the Son, according to Christianity?

BR & Good Night

BMZ

bmz:  You ask an interesting question.  Jesus said, "a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven," ......"but a Word against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, neither in this world or the world to come."

Here Jesus is speaking of something Christians call "the unforgiveable sin."  And what is that?  Well, in order to understand that, one must look and see exactly what the mission of the Third Person of the Trinity is.  Christian Scripture says, "no man can come to me (Jesus) unless my Father calls Him."  Also, it says that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, and draws us to Christ. 

Therefore, the sin against the Holy Spirit is to resist God's call, and to refuse to repent, even while under the conviction of God's Holy Spirit.  In other words, if you have heard the Gospel, understand its message, and have been drawn to Christ - and then turn away - that sin cannot be forgiven either in this world or that to come.  If you have a Bible, you will find this outlined in greater detail in Hebrews Chapters 6 and 10.  In the King James Version this is called "blasphemy" against the Holy Ghost.

Christians, of course, do not believe that the Angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit, as do Muslims.  This is contrary to the Scriptures, which teach us that the Holy Spirit is equal to the Father and the Son.  For instance, Jesus commanded us to go forth and baptize in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost.  If the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) was an angel, this would be "shirk."

but a Word against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, neither in this world or the world to come

Very frightening never smile never forgive personality, nothing is negotiatable with him. In an instant I knew the direction of it in a context. Your guess most likely is as good as mine.

According to the gospels there are two different holy spirits. The one who was there while Jesus was still walking in this world and was helping him all along, the other is the one he said that would not come until he depart.

You have a go. 

That was a good one!

Smile, I was on candid camera!

BR & Good Night

BMZ

superme - No, I would have to disagree with your take on Christian theology.  There are not two Holy Spirits.  Jesus did say that the Holy Spirit would not come unless He departed.  Let me attempt to explain this to you.

You can see in the Old Testament (for instance, with Saul and David) the fact that the Holy Spirit came upon them, but did not remain.  In other words, this was a temporary experience.  When Jesus walked the earth, He was also in perfect communication within the Godhead - He was the God/Man.  The Scriptures clearly tell us that He was "led by the Spirit" for instance.  This is in accordance with the doctrine of hypostatic union - Christ being fully God and fully man.

Jesus' teaching regarding the "coming" of the Holy Spirit is referring to what happened 50 days after His ascension into heaven.  You can read about it in the Book of Acts.  All His followers and the Blessed Mother were in the upper room, praying.  Suddenly they heard a mighty rushing wind, and tongues of fire appeared on their heads.  This is called the Pentecostal experience, and was accompanied by speaking in other tongues and other gifts.  Christians today have access to these same gifts, and many do speak in other tongues.

So, after Christ's ascent to the Father, the Holy Spirit did come in a special and unique way.  Unlike Old Testament times, the Holy Spirit does not just come temporarily, but comes permanently to reside within the believer and empower the believer with the gifts of the Holy Spirit to live the Christian life.

I hope this explanation has helped.

bmzsp wrote: Hi Meng, thanks for your comment but dear Jesus did not speak, discussed, argued, preached and addressed in Greek. He spoke Aramaic, which is evident from the his last words of despair, "Eli, Eli, Lama sabachtani" the only words in Aramaic, quoted in the Bible. There was thus a double or a triple translation; first from Aramaic and Hebrew into Koine Greek and then back into Hebrew and Aramaic and finally into English. This has resulted in a great loss of the meanings during translations, I suspect. The argument that everything was translated from Koine Greek does not hold any water. BR BMZ

Greetings to BMZ,

You said:

He spoke Aramaic, which is evident from the his last words of despair, "Eli, Eli, Lama sabachtani" the only words in Aramaic, quoted in the Bible.

I am a bit suprised by your comment.  All the Muslims that I know tell me that Jesus was not crucified.  They tell me that Jesus was not on the cross.  You seem to believe that he was.  Do you?

If you don't believe that Jesus was on the cross, then the words you mentioned do not apply to Jesus.  It must have been someone else on the cross so why attribute these words of Jesus?

As to these words being the only Aramaic words in the Bible, I think you are mistaken.  Besides Abba, there are many others.  You can probably find a document on the Internet that will explain which ones.

I might have a little something on Immanuel for you.  Let me see what I can find.

Grretings, George

"He spoke Aramaic, which is evident from the his last words of despair, "Eli, Eli, Lama sabachtani" the only words in Aramaic, quoted in the Bible." for the sake of discussion and to prove a point from the Bible that he spoke Aramaic. OF course I do not believe that he was crucified or crucifixed.

The point is that he did not speak Koine Greek as his first language.

Regarding Abba, my children still call me that and millions of kids in the Region still call their father Abba. I am aware of such words.

I know that Immanuel means "God with us" but he was NOT named Immanuel at all. He was named Yeshua which means "he saves" or something like that.

BR

BMZ

Athanasius wrote: Christians, of course, do not believe that the Angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit, as do Muslims.  This is contrary to the Scriptures, which teach us that the Holy Spirit is equal to the Father and the Son.  For instance, Jesus commanded us to go forth and baptize in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost.  If the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) was an angel, this would be "shirk."

I agree with that.

Grretings, George

"He spoke Aramaic, which is evident from the his last words of despair, "Eli, Eli, Lama sabachtani" the only words in Aramaic, quoted in the Bible." for the sake of discussion and to prove a point from the Bible that he spoke Aramaic. OF course I do not believe that he was crucified or crucifixed.

Comment: I don't think anyone would deny that Jesus spoke Aramaic.  He spoke Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek and probably some Latin.

These are some of Jesus' words in Aramaic:

Jesus addressed God in prayer, using the Aramaic word Abba, the affectionate term for "Father" [Mark 14:36]. Jesus raised the child by calling out Talitha cumi, which means "little girl, arise" in Mark 5:41. He cured the man who was deaf and dumb by speaking Ephphatha, meaning "be opened" in Mark 7:34. Jesus refers to hell as Gehenna in Mark 9:42-50. Jesus cried out from the cross Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani, that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" [Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34]. Jesus used Aramaic words twice in referring to Peter: he used the prefix Bar-, "the son of," (not the Hebrew Ben) when he called Peter Bar-Jonah, the son of Jonah [Matthew 16:17]; and he called Peter Cephas, the Aramaic word for rock in John 1:42.

The point is that he did not speak Koine Greek as his first language.

Comment:  Probably Jesus' first language was not Greek, but what is your point?

According to my Jewish scholar contacts in the times of second Temple Judaism, Koine Greek was the "universal language" at the time.  You will notice that there were Jewish writings during the Maccabean period and after that were written originally in Greek rather than in Hebrew. Several (if not all) books in the Apocrypha are of Jewish origin, and we do not find Hebrew copies of them dating back to antiquity. This came about as a result of Alexander the Great's campaign to "greek-ify" (hellenize) the entire world.

The educated Jews in Israel were often bilingual, if not quadrilingual. They would have certainly known Aramaic (often considered to be a street language at the time) and Hebrew (especially in and around Jerusalem), but they very well might have spoken Greek and Latin there also, depending on the individual.

See Luke 4:21, 21 And He began to say to them, �Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.�

I asked my Jewish scholar what language Jesus would have been mostly likely to have spoken and what language the scroll from which he was reading would most likely be.  The answer is Hebrew. 

As for Jesus' words on the cross, Eli, Eli, Lama sabachtani, there seems to be a mixing languages. Eli (אלי) is Hebrew. Lama (למה) is Hebrew [might be Aramaic?]. Sabachtani is a bad transliteration based on the fact that there is no voiceless palato-alveolar sibilant (sh; �; ∫) in the Greek language. It comes from the Aramaic root ש�ב�ק (shabak), which means "to forsake" and corresponds to the Hebrew ע�ז�ב (azav).

The author of the following link builds a convincing case that Jesus' first language was Hebrew:  http://www.ccsom.org/languageofjesus/eloieloilamasabachtani.htm - http://www.ccsom.org/languageofjesus/eloieloilamasabachtani. htm

Regarding Abba, my children still call me that and millions of kids in the Region still call their father Abba. I am aware of such words.

What your children call you is irrelevant.  No Jew in second Temple Judaism would have called God, "my father."  This privilege was for the Messiah and the Messiah only. 

I know that Immanuel means "God with us" but he was NOT named Immanuel at all. He was named Yeshua which means "he saves" or something like that.

Comment: We need to take a look at the Scriptures:

Matthew 1: 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, �Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.�

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 �Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,�which is translated, �God with us.�

Hi George, to cut the whole story short, you read and understand what is written.

The Christian scripture that we read is in English and it has been claimed that the translation is almost the closest to the original text and that is what people are reading.

Isaiah 7:14 in the Christian OT, "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

The above sentence is very clear that the "virgin will call him Immanuel" but the virgin did not call him that at all. According to the text, she was suppose to call him Immanuel and that should have been the child's name. One does not need to discuss how that was written in Greek.

Do you know why this problem arose? Because the text of the verse 7:14 was taken from the Jewish Tanakh (Jewish OT) long after Jesus was gone and it was used to show it as a prophecy.

By the way, Isaiah in the Jewish OT does not use the word 'virgin".

Let me now come to the link provided by you, and I read this:

"A beautiful example of the Trinity in the Old Testament (first occurring in Genesis 1:26)."

Genesis: 1:26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over ..................."

Does this "us" in the above sentence prove that there were three Gods sitting there and God, the Creator was telling that to the Holy Spirit and the Son? Is this how trinity was found in the Jewish Bible?

If that is the basis, then I am flabbergasted.  Take a look at the word man and them in the same sentence. I can now ask how many men were there for whom them was used?

The us is just a royal We and at all times within that passage it is all about God and only God Almighty who speaks as the singular I at all times.

The spirit or soul of any person, animal and any creature or any living thing has to reside within that entity. God is not exempt from that. The Spirit of God is just figurative like the Mercy of God is.

Good Night & Best Regards

BMZ

bmz:  The Septuagint, translated from Hebrew into Greek before the birth of Christ, indicates the word "virgin."  This is apparently how the word was understood in both the pre-Christian and Christian era.

Furthermore, Christ is called , "God with us."  See, for instance, the doctrines of Incarnational theology.

Greetings, Athanasius.

May I ask if you have read the Chapter Isaiah in the Jewish Tanakh, the Jewish Bible?

Take any and you will find Isaiah 7:14 talking about a young woman only, not a virgin.

BR & Good Night

BMZ

May I ask you if you have a copy of the Septuagint?  If so, then you know this prophecy in Isaiah was understood by Jewish scholars to speak of a Virgin conceiving.

How could God be giving a miraculous sign unless it was a Virgin?

Also, Muslims teach that Mary was a Virgin when she conceived the Christ, right?

Well, I think the arguement over "almah" meaning young woman or virgin is silly.

It clearly states in the Quran that Mary was a virgin.

019.016
YUSUFALI: Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
PICKTHAL: And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
SHAKIR: And mention Marium in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place;

019.017
YUSUFALI: She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
PICKTHAL: And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
SHAKIR: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.

019.018
YUSUFALI: She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
PICKTHAL: She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
SHAKIR: She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent Allah, if you are one guarding (against evil).

019.019
YUSUFALI: He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
PICKTHAL: He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
SHAKIR: He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.

019.020
YUSUFALI: She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
PICKTHAL: She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
SHAKIR: She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?

019.021
YUSUFALI: He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
PICKTHAL: He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
SHAKIR: He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed.

019.022
YUSUFALI: So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
PICKTHAL: And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.
SHAKIR: So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.

003.042
YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
PICKTHAL: And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation.
SHAKIR: And when the angels said: O Marium! surely Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of of the world.

003.043
YUSUFALI: "O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."
PICKTHAL: O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship).
SHAKIR: O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow.

003.044
YUSUFALI: This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger!) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
PICKTHAL: This is of the tidings of things hidden. We reveal it unto thee (Muhammad). Thou wast not present with them when they threw their pens (to know) which of them should be the guardian of Mary, nor wast thou present with them when they quarrelled (thereupon).
SHAKIR: This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.

003.045
YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
SHAKIR: When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

003.046
YUSUFALI: "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
PICKTHAL: He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.
SHAKIR: And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.

003.047
YUSUFALI: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
PICKTHAL: She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.

003.048
YUSUFALI: "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
PICKTHAL: And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,
SHAKIR: And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel.

003.049
YUSUFALI: "And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
PICKTHAL: And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.
SHAKIR: And (make him) a messenger to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.

003.050
YUSUFALI: "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
PICKTHAL: And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
SHAKIR: And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.

It's not what is stated in the Koran that is of any importance, since Mohammed lived hundreds of years after the event took place.  It's what is stated in the Bible that is the evidence of Mary's virginity - and her own words, "how can this be, seeing that I know no man?"

Quoting the Koran is like quoting the Writings of Swedenborg.

To BMZ,

Hi "Spot"

Have you learned anything from this conversation?  I hope so because I certainly put enough effort in it for you.

Please send my regards to your family and give your new cat a pat from me.  I do hope that you do not allow her to go out on the balcony while you are smoking cigarettes.  Balconies are dangerous places for cats.

Greetings,

Looks like this time, you followed me here, so you are the Spot.

We have banned the balconies for our cats. Good to see you. Will write Abdul and ask him to join in.

Congratulations on the new arrival and my best wishes to you and your family.

BR & Good Night

BMZ

bmzsp wrote: Greetings, Looks like this time, you followed me here, so you are the Spot. We have banned the balconies for our cats. Good to see you. Will write Abdul and ask him to join in. Congratulations on the new arrival and my best wishes to you and your family. BR & Good Night BMZ

Actually I didn't follow you, but you can call me "Spot" if you want to.

I don't know how long I will stay here, BMZ.

The new arrival is great and we have another one coming in a matter of days.

Thanks for the good wishes.

ak_m_f

George is a great defender of the Christian faith and trinity. George (not his real name) and I have been arguing and discussing Christianity and Islam for over three and a half years at two sites.

He calls me Spot ( a dog) affectionately and I call him the same. George spends most of his time trying very hard to find Trinity and the Holy Ghost in Qur'aan.

Best Regards & Salaam Alaikum

BMZ

BMZ,

Not a dog, BMZ, but a puppy.  Puppies are fun and mischievious.

Greetings All, and Katherine.

I wanted to comment on the thread in general and thought this would be the best place to interject.

Katherine wrote: bmzsp wrote: I am sorry for the mistake but you could have found out easily what I was referring to!. Please read Isaiah 7:14 in the Jewish scripture and then read Isaiah 7:14 in the OT of the Christian Bible. Hope to hear from you as to why the changes were made to the Jewish text which was there far before even the Christian Bible was compiled. BR BMZ Yes, I knew perfectly well which verse you were referring to. lol The Jewish Scriptures translated from the Greek were translated by Jews.  Do you think they made a mistake translating their own scriptures?

This would be a misconception, making your question a "complex question" (a question that assumes as its bases an unproven or erroneous belief). When one states the word, "Septuagint", the actual connotation would be the five books of Moses. That is the actual Septuagint. The book you are speaking of would not have been included in that.

Katherine wrote: Am I mistaken?  I thought that Muslims believed that Jesus was born of a virgin?  Are you denying that?

Thats a good point Katherine. But, we must keep in mind the difference between a belief, and an evidence for the belief. It is not uncommon for Christians in the west to take an indignant attitude when they encounter a Muslim in a discussion who speaks about Jesus. For most Christians, they feel they are the true followers of Jesus and because their name sake carries the name of their leader, that if anyone has any authority on who and what Jesus was, they are the one.

As a Muslims, when I examine the Christian evidences for their beliefs, I find most of them to be tentative at best, and fallacious at worst. The exmaple being discussed now is one such evidece that is held by the Church to be one of their strong proofs for the case of Jesus and their beliefs about him. My rejection of this evidence as proof does not deny my belief in the virgin birth, but it does reinforce my skepticism of Christianity. My skepticism is not base upon any derogatory view of your faith, but upon the foundations on which it is built, such as this proof "verse".

Katherine wrote:   Since you brought Isaiah 53 up.  What do you think about what I said about this Chapter? This particular Chapter was almost unamimously considered Messianic in first century Judaism.  You will find that Jews today deny this and consider this Chapter to refer to the  nation of Israel, but there are reasons why this cannot be. This particular Chapter has brought many, many Jews to believe that Jesus was, indeed, their Messiah, their King Messiah.

Your first statement is simply without any solid bases. Isaiah 53 is not widely denied as Messianic, and it is not widely denied as being Israel, but it is widely denied to be Jesus, which I would concur.

For now, I want to cover Isaiah 7:1-16

Below is a paste of appropriate verses needed for the discussion from the JPS, which I dislike if quoting the TANACH, but it suffices for now. I will make comments that explain the context of the verse, the setting, and then provide points that show this is not a prophecy, or a dual prophecy, and given the setting and conext, has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus or the late second temple. 

 7:1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to war against it; but could not prevail against it.

In 732 BCE, we find the Davidic throne under the threat of war from the two warring kingdoms of the North. The Kingdom of Syria and the Kindgom of Israel are trying to destroy the Kingdom of the South and have layed siege to the city of Jerusalem. King Ahaz is about to loose everything, and it should be mentioned that King Ahaz is not a "man of Gd", which will allow this chapter to make sense.

The threat of the Davidic throne is reinforced below.

7:2 And it was told the house of David, saying: 'Aram is confederate with Ephraim.' And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the forest are moved with the wind.

7:3 Then said the Lord unto Isaiah: 'Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shear-jashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, in the highway of the fullers' field;

7:4 and say unto him: Keep calm, and be quiet; fear not, neither let thy heart be faint, because of these two tails of smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram, and of the son of Remaliah.

7:5 Because Aram hath counselled evil against thee, Ephraim also, and the son of Remaliah, saying:

7:6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set up a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeel;

7:7 thus saith the Lord GOD: it shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

7:8 For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people;

7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not have faith, surely ye shall not be established.'

7:10 And the Lord spoke again unto Ahaz, saying:

7:11 'Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.'

7:12 But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the Lord.'

7:13 And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also?

7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

7:16 Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken.