John Brown and I have been reprimanded for attempting to clarify Christian beliefs.  It appears that IslamiCity is not the type of website that allows a free exchange of ideas in terms of theological precepts.  We were told that we can stay here to "learn about Islam," however it is apparent that Muslims are not allowed to "learn about Christianity" on this website, other than to have it misrepresented by non-Christian sectarians.

Now, I am sure that this posting will be deleted shortly. If anybody is interested in a non-censored, free exchange of ideas in the American tradition, please go to Beliefnet, where Christians and Muslims interact freely.  Athanasius

ak:  It is org, I believe.  Here is a link to Beliefnet:

http://www.beliefnet.org/boards/index.asp - http://www.beliefnet.org/boards/index.asp

Athanasius:

No-one says that you cannot correct a wrong assumption, but you are not allowed to harass the other posters, nor are you allowed to proselytise.

Other Christians on the site asked Angela what her beliefs were, then immediately began attacking those beliefs.  That is not a free exchange of ideas, that is waging a campaign against someone to harass and discredit them. This will not be tolerated here.

Moderator Group

Excuse me, but if some heterodox Muslim came here and said that Sunni Muslims teach that all unbaptized babies burn in hell - what would you do?

The problem is that Angela can believe anything she wants, she could worship the man in the moon for all I care, but don't call those beliefs "Christian" under any circumstances. 

I never harrassed or discredited this individual, and to say so is a misrepresentation of the events.

Bro Athanaisus, if secretarinization/denomination is your concern, one can reasonably ask you the same question as to which do you belong? Isn't it?

 On the other hand, I think sis Angela has very categorically declared that she is only representing her mormon beliefs and not from the other Christians' views. And I think this is a fair deal.

O my dear bro Athanasius, the only purpose of asking this question was to make you realize that once we talk about denominations etc. we are only dividing ourself. So as you said you are so and so, there could be many other Christians on this forum who may not like to subscribe to your ideas of Christian faith. So, logically speaking, they can argue upon your beliefs in the same very way as you are doing to others. Even more, that though sis Angela has been very careful about truthfully declaring her faith identity, but from you, I am only listening it here for the first time. Come on, give others some space to breathe as well. No harm intended. Peace.

Ahmad: Please remember that I have cast no aspersions on other Christian denominations - the Latter-day Saints or Mormons, along with such groups as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Unitarians, etc., are not Christian denominations, but non-Christian groups.

If you need further information, please access the following link:

http://aomin.org/apologetics.html - http://aomin.org/apologetics.html

Now, I'd really rather respond to questions from Muslims or ask Muslims questions - as far as Mormons go, they have other forums where they defend their doctrines, such as Beliefnet, etc.

Athanasius wrote: Ahmad: Please remember that I have cast no aspersions on other Christian denominations - the Latter-day Saints or Mormons, along with such groups as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Unitarians, etc., are not Christian denominations, but non-Christian groups. If you need further information, please access the following link: http://aomin.org/apologetics.html - http://aomin.org/apologetics.html Now, I'd really rather respond to questions from Muslims or ask Muslims questions - as far as Mormons go, they have other forums where they defend their doctrines, such as Beliefnet, etc.

See here, once again you cast doubt upon the beliefs of another member, then try to change the subject. They are not Christians in your opinion, but their opinion is different. Continuous attacks will not change their opinion, it is just a lack of manners.

Anglicanism, is that even a term ??

Mishmish wrote: Athanasius wrote: Ahmad: Please remember that I have cast no aspersions on other Christian denominations - the Latter-day Saints or Mormons, along with such groups as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Unitarians, etc., are not Christian denominations, but non-Christian groups. Fine, can we get past this ? Now, I'd really rather respond to questions from Muslims or ask Muslims questions - as far as Mormons go, they have other forums where they defend their doctrines, such as Beliefnet, etc. Athan, now that is a bit unpolite. [quote]See here, once again you cast doubt upon the beliefs of another member, then try to change the subject. They are not Christians in your opinion, but their opinion is different. Continuous attacks will not change their opinion, it is just a lack of manners.

Mishmish, can please tell how Athan's post is casting doubt upon the beliefs of another member ? Athan is just trying to state that some groups are non christian groups.

Angel:

A group of the new posters decided they had a problem with Angela and Mormonism and had some very "un-nice" things to say. Despite repeated warnings they continued and some are no longer on the forum. Most of the posts were deleted and the threads closed.

We went through this all before on other threads. This thread was just an attempt to explain/justify what they were doing, but attacks of this type will simply not be allowed.

What right does he have to say I'm not a Christian Angel?  I was baptized in the name of Christ.  I claim Jesus Christ as my redeemer and close every prayer I offer in his name.  Athan has not right to call me a non Christian.  Judgement is reserved for God alone.

Angelicans....The Angelican Church was started by Henry the VIII because the Roman Catholic Church was not giving him a divorce.

Any Church separated from the Roman and Eastern Orthodox traditions have been called heretical.  The Inquisition ring any bells.  The problem with one group trying to tell another group what they can and cannot believe is ridiculous.

The Mormon faith faces the most violent, prejudicial and horrible attacks of any denomination.  We have been murdered, jailed and forced out of our homes and lands for 175 years. 

So-called Christians of a "mainstream variety" are responsible for the deaths at Hauns Mill, Far West and other parts of Jackson county.  It was Christians who killed Joseph and Hyrum for what they believed and drove starving and sick saints across the plains to a desert valley that no one wanted.  Then after they worked, bleed and died to turn this land into something valuable, they were attacked again. 

Then of course, a group of Missourian pioneers cross the Utah Territory, brag about being there at the massacres and a that they were going to do it again.  So, a group of Mormon men got together and killed them.  That is our great sin.  And one that has been taught to every child as what NOT to do.

There are thousands of sites, some of which are posted by Katherine, Meng and Athan to discredit and flat out lie about Mormons beliefs.  In 1974 the Extermination order in Missouri was finally lifted.

Athan is a bigot not a Christian.  Christ talk us to love and be kind, not to judge and persecute. 

Catholics claim to be the only church, so do many others.  Mine is no different.  But at least we let others believe in peace.

I have always said on this site I was mormon.  MY VERY FIRST POST LISTED MYSELF AS MORMON.  I have never lied and there have been numerous Christians on this board in the last 9 months and never have any been as rude and venomous as you Athan and your friends. 

I have every right to say what I believe here, however, I came here to learn about them after 7/7.  And I take offense to you coming here and doing no learning.  Just proselyting Christ and degrading my faith.  If I were from a backwoods independent church, you would never have said a thing even if I was a little off.  But since I belong to a Church of 12 million and growing.  You feel the need to actually discredit me.

Now the Muslims here see what kind of pain and prejudice the Mormons face and they now can understand that I know what they go through in this post 9/11 world.

We are not saying that anyone on this forum cannot believe whatever they want to believe. I have stated and will state again that the Moderators here do not care what your beliefs are as long as you act in a proper manner and follow the Guidelines.

But any type of personal attack will not be tolerated.

Angela was specifically singled out, asked what she believed, then summarily attacked on all sides by four different users at once. Despite her asking them repeatedly to leave her alone and not denigrate her beliefs, they continued to do so. Then some of them started spamming her personal e-mail with mean messages.

This will not be tolerated on this forum.

For the poster that asked about what Anglicanism is:  this is the tradition of Christianity that grew out of the separation of the Church of England from the Church of Rome during the reign of King Henry the Eighth.  Anglicans are a major worldwide denomination.  The largest portion of Anglicans are, in fact, found in Nigeria, Rwanda, and other countries which were once English colonies.  In the United States, the Anglican Church is called the Episcopal Church.  However, that Church has split into several groups because of the Episcopal Church's obvious liberalness and apostasy (regarding homosexual ordination and marriage, etc.).  The Anglican Mission in America was begun by African and Oriental Anglican bishops who ordained "missionaries" to govern conservative Anglicans in the United States.

Most Anglican churches are in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury.  However, the Ab. of Canterbury does not have the same power as the pope, for instance.  Loyalty to Canterbury is optional.  Also, there are about 70 million Anglicans worldwide, the majority in Africa, so the Anglican Church is no longer simply an Englishman's church, but is now far more diverse.  Archbisop Akinola of Nigeria is the chief leader of the conservative wing of the Anglican Communion, and most conservative Anglicans look to him for leadership.  Here is a link to the Church of Nigeria:

http://www.anglican-nig.org/home.htm - http://www.anglican-nig.org/home.htm

It should be noted that the Anglican Church has preserved Apostolic Succession - in other words, their bishops trace their apostolic authority to the Apostles through ordination.

I am a part of the conservative branch of Anglicanism.  I hope this clears up any questions you may have. Ath

DavidC wrote: Very few Christian denominations will identify Mormons as Christians, just as very few Muslims will call NOI, Habibism or the Amidayyah (sp?) Islamic. Athanasius beliefs are well within the mainstream of general Christian doctrine.  He did not word his post well,  and should not have made his comment sound personal, but he has a point.

I do not believe I made my comments personal, but if I did, I'm sorry.  Let me put it this way:

Christianity is identified by a core-belief system which is shared by all calling themselves Christians.  This core belief-system transcends denominational barriers.  Those who do not share in these core-beliefs are not considered to be Christian by those within the fellowship of Christian churches.  These core beliefs include the following:

1.  God is a Triune Being: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Within the One Godhead there exists the Persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  As the Athanasian creed states, we do not confuse the Persons or confound the substance (all Persons of the same substance of Deity).

2.  Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Godhead. He became flesh in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

3.  Christ is the full, perfect and sufficient sacrifice by His death on the cross, for the sins of the whole world.  His shed blood was the only oblation for sin acceptable to God.  Forgiveness of sins comes solely by faith in His sacrificial death.

4.  Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilot, and buried.  On the third day He arose from the dead in His glorified physical body.  He ascended to His Father in Heaven.

5.  The Holy Spirit, the Paraclete and Comforter, was sent by the Father, through the Son, to indwell believers and guide the Church. 

6.  Christ will come again to judge both the quick (living) and the dead.  His kingdom will have no end.

7.  We believe that the Holy Scriptures contained in the 66 books of the Bible are inspired by God and free from doctrinal error. (Roman Catholics and Orthodox include some additoinal books).

8.  We believe that Christ instituted at least two ordinances or sacraments:  The Lord's Supper, or Holy Communion, and Baptism with water in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

9.  We believe that salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

10.  We believe that we are commanded by Christ to go into all the world and preach His Gospel.

Now, there may be minor variations among Christians on such things as the means of baptism, the meaning of the sacraments, etc.  However, we are united in Christ as far as the core beliefs are concerned. 

As I attempted to illustrate above, it would be ludicrous for me to outline these Christian beliefs and then tell you I'm a Muslim - right?  There are certain identifying doctrines that Muslims hold dear and by which they identify those within their brotherhood.  It is the same for Christians. 

So, I will state again, those who may identify themselves as Christians, but who reject one or more of the core-doctrines of Christianity which I have posted above, are not Christians, even though they may idenitify their Church by using Jesus' Name or baptize in His Name.  If they deny the faith of Jesus, then they cannot be considered Christians anymore than Muslims would consider Bahais Muslims.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding. It is not a personal attack, but a clarification for those on IslamiCity.

Christianity is identified by a core-belief system which is shared by all calling themselves Christians.  This core belief-system transcends denominational barriers.  Those who do not share in these core-beliefs are not considered to be Christian by those within the fellowship of Christian churches.  These core beliefs include the following:

1.  God is a Triune Being: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Within the One Godhead there exists the Persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  As the Athanasian creed states, we do not confuse the Persons or confound the substance (all Persons of the same substance of Deity).

This is the one thing that separates Mormons in theology.  That we reject the 3=1 and yet, we still have this Godhead.  The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  One in purpose, the Divine Plan of Salvation.

2.  Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Godhead. He became flesh in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

3.  Christ is the full, perfect and sufficient sacrifice by His death on the cross, for the sins of the whole world.  His shed blood was the only oblation for sin acceptable to God.  Forgiveness of sins comes solely by faith in His sacrificial death.

4.  Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilot, and buried.  On the third day He arose from the dead in His glorified physical body.  He ascended to His Father in Heaven.

5.  The Holy Spirit, the Paraclete and Comforter, was sent by the Father, through the Son, to indwell believers and guide the Church. 

6.  Christ will come again to judge both the quick (living) and the dead.  His kingdom will have no end.

7.  We believe that the Holy Scriptures contained in the 66 books of the Bible are inspired by God and free from doctrinal error. (Roman Catholics and Orthodox include some additoinal books).

I have a Orthodox bible complete with the apocrypha.  So, if the Catholic traditions can have additional books not recognized as canon by the Protestants and still be Christian.  Why can't we?  We still recognize the original 66 books.  This years focus is on the Old Testament.

8.  We believe that Christ instituted at least two ordinances or sacraments:  The Lord's Supper, or Holy Communion, and Baptism with water in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

9.  We believe that salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

10.  We believe that we are commanded by Christ to go into all the world and preach His Gospel.

Now, there may be minor variations among Christians on such things as the means of baptism, the meaning of the sacraments, etc.  However, we are united in Christ as far as the core beliefs are concerned. 

So, I will state again, those who may identify themselves as Christians, but who reject one or more of the core-doctrines of Christianity which I have posted above, are not Christians, even though they may idenitify their Church by using Jesus' Name or baptize in His Name.  If they deny the faith of Jesus, then they cannot be considered Christians anymore than Muslims would consider Bahais Muslims.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding. It is not a personal attack, but a clarification for those on IslamiCity.

The one thing that separates Mormons from other Christians is belief in a restored Gospel and the apostacy of the main Church.  Heretics possibly, unorthodox definitely, but we are still Christians.  We have all Ten of the aspects.  We just define the Godhead differently and have an extra scripture.  Our beliefs include our Church being the only true Church of Christ.  However, when I was growing up, I saw first hand the differences in Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism.  I was raised a mainstream Christian.  Now if my family can understand, accept and not judge, why do you feel the need to do so???  Christ taught love, faith and Charity.  My favorite scripture comes from 1 Corinthians Chapter 13.  But, I for one suggest you go back and read John 8.  Maybe with both of these scriptures, you can understand how Unchristlike it was for you, Meng, Katherine and (whoever Betsy Bower is) to start harassing me for my beliefs.  My grandmother, a good faithfuly protestant was appaulled by the behavior and thinks you all need to go back to Sunday School with the kindergartners....relearn what you were taught there.

Main Entry: ¹Chris�tian
Pronunciation: 'kris-ch&n, 'krish-
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & n., from Greek christianos, from Christos
1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christb (1) : Disciple (2) : a member of one of the Churches of Christ separating from the Disciples of Christ in 1906 (3) : a member of the Christian denomination having part in the union of the United Church of Christ concluded in 1961
2 : the hero in Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress

Angela, you are the one engaging in debate here, I am only outlining the Christian viewpoint.  If you want to debate Mormonism with me, I'll be glad to meet you over on Beliefnet.

Your statement that the ONE thing that separates Mormons from OTHER Christians is misleading. 

1.  Mormons are not other Christians, they are a non-Christian sect.

2.  The chief thing which separates Christians from Mormons is:

      The doctrine of God

       The doctrine of man

Mormons are polytheists - and in this way are similar to Hinduism.

Mormons believe that God was once a human being, a man.  That through obedience to the Mormon gospel, he evolved to Godhood.  All Mormons can also have as their goal evolving into gods and goddesses.

A well known saying by Mormons is:

"As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.''

Although today's LDS tend to play down this couplet, it is very much a true description of the anthropomorphic gods and goddesses of Mormonism.  Whereas the Christian God always was God, according to Christian doctrine, as well as Judaism and Islam, Mormons worship a deity who was once a man.

However, since the moderators have already reprimanded us about engaging in debate here about Mormonism, I believe that you should refrain from any further expositions of Mormon doctrine, unless of course you are seeking converts.

No, I just want you to stop degrading my religion by calling us Non Christian.  You aren't the Pope, the Bishop of Cantabury or any other kind of official that has the right to hand out membership badges. 

I could have come on here claiming to be from the Hope Evangelical Parish of Todd, Pennsyvlania and you would have said nothing.  But because I'm Mormon, you feel the need to pull out doctrine which has no business on this website and make a stink about Mormons not being Christian.

When in Fact we are listed at a Chrisitan Denomination in the catagory of Restorationism.  We aren't even listed as a Christian Heresy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

And according to Adherents.com We are also a Chrisitan sect. Accounting for 1.5-2% of Christians depending on the chart you look at here.

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions - http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

You have no right to come onto this site and break down my faith.  I am a Christian and a Woman of the Book. 

You go ahead and keep bringing up doctrines I've never taught here.  If you ask most of the people here.  I came to learn.  Only in one thread did I discuss my faith at length and that was on request.  Otherwise, I try to focus on what THEY believe.  If I wanted to share what I believe, I'd be on beliefnet.  But with people like you there.  I am hardly going to suffer the abuse.