In response to your reply to Athan in the other thread of trinity....

Khadija wrote: We, MUSLIMS, believe that we know what true Christianity is because we believe that God revealed that to us through the Divine Revelation when He bestowed upon the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).  Sister Khadija

yet, no muslim in all the time I have been learning islam has stated what true christianity is. All that is mentioned is that you believe in the injeel, but cannot say what part of the bible /scriptures of christianity is the injeel. If you don't know what part or what is the injeel then how can you know what is the true christianity ? 

You believe that you know what true christianity is, then state what it is.

I have never come across a muslim who has actually mention that they (or should I say MUSLIMS) know/believe what true christainity is.

May I ask the christian people who will inevitabitly participate NOT to inject what is right or wrong here according to christianity or what it says to be the truth. In other words I don't want you to correct what you see as wrong.

fredifreeloader wrote: for your information, angel, if you didnt know it already - according to muslims - "true christianity" is islam!!!!

I don't see how that can be.

Angel wrote: I have never come across a muslim who has actually mention that they (or should I say MUSLIMS) know/believe what true christainity is.

Have you count the possibility that because christianity itself is not recognized as a religion?. I believe you know that the stand in the Qur'an is "there is no deen except Islam".

As for the Injeel. The only statement in the Qur'an is, that to the son of Mary Injeel was given. The only rationale explanation is, must be what Jesus tought as we see it in the 4 gospels. Beyond that Qur'anically it is not recognized as the Injeel.

Ok let see what others have to say.

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu Alaikum

Angel, that is because Fredifreeloader is making a play on the word �Islam�.  The root word of �Islam� is �al-silm� which means �submission� or �surrender�.  Islam, therefore, means �submission to God�.  We believe that any pious person from the Book�be it a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim�is one who submits his/her will to that of God.  We also believe that God has always commanded the following from His servants:

2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

The above ayat does not merely refer to Muslims, it is a reference to all people of the Book. 

Please note that the word �Allah� means �the God� in Arabic and indicates that there is only one God and not many.  In other words, all pious people of the Book are monotheists, believers in one God�the God�ALLAH�and not polytheists.  Allah said:

2:163 And your God is one God. There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

According to the Holy Qur�an, the righteous of any of the people of the Book adhere to the above commands.  The definition for the righteous is clearly stated in the Holy Qur�an:

2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfill the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.

So, if we take the above ayat, which refers to all of the people of the Book, and break it down, we see that the righteous have the following characteristics:

They believe in:

�        Allah

�        The Last Day

�        The Angels

�        The Book, and

�        The Messengers

        They also:

�        Spend of their substance, out of love for Allah

�        Steadfast in prayer

�        Practice regular charity

�        Fulfill the contracts which they have made

�        Are firm and patient in pain and adversity

If we momentarily set aside the issue of the �trinity� (since it is arguable that the trinity gives rise to polytheism�I will address this later), we can easily see that what Allah reveals in the Holy Qur�an regarding those who are righteous, are indeed the righteous people of the Book regardless of rather that person be a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim.

So, according to the Holy Qur�an, all righteous people of the Book are brethren because they all adhere to the same beliefs because they all believe in the same Book.  Allah only sent more than one prophet with the message (the Book) because many went astray after having received clear guidance:

4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah [the God�the one and only God], His angels, His Books, His Messenger, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

So, what separates the people of the book is not that they believe in different scriptures, but rather, that some have �gone far, far astray�.  How they have gone so far astray I will discuss after I answer Fredifreeloader�s accusation.

Fredifreeloader�s basic claim is that �according to muslims � �true christainity� is islam!!!!�  We need to distinguish between what Allah revealed in the Holy Qur�an and what is �according to mulims�.  Although it is true that according to the Qur�an that all righteous people of the Book have the same characteristics and they all submit to the will of Allah, it is true in the literal sense of the root word of Islam (i.e., a;-silm�submission to the will of God) and not in the literal sense that all righteous people must take Islamic Shahadah.  That is, Christians are not required to follow the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) because their prophet is Jesus (pbuh) and Jews are not required to follow the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) either because their prophet is Moses (pbuh).  They each should follow their perspective prophets and since all of Allah�s prophets are on equal footing with respect to people of the book (that is, we should not make distinctions between them since they are all equally messengers, servants, slaves of Allah�s), there is no need for a righteous person of the Book to convert/revert. 

It is clear by the Holy Qur�an that Fredifreeloader is wrong in saying that Christians or even Jews must enter Islam by taking Islamic Shahadah and thereby becoming a member of the Islamic faith.  It is made clear by the following ayat that the people of the Book are classified according to the Book and the prophet which was ordained by Allah to present it at the time the messenger was sent with it and which they come to submit their will to Allah through.

2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Why is this?  Why did Allah send more than one messenger? Because:

2:213 Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.

That is, because before He sent the Book, people �differed� and even after He revealed to them �clear Signs�, some differed through �selfish contumacy�.  Yes, as it evident throughout history and in the world today, even though GOD blesses us with His Truth, some people have stubbornly and selfishly resisted His authority.  However, Allah is the Most Merciful of the merciful and because of this, He send a number of prophets to set straight what men had made crooked so that humankind could be guided back to His Straight Path.

With respect to the other things Fredifreeloader said:

fredifreeloader wrote: they think that europe was once muslim.  they think that muslims discovered america, and converted it.  they probably think australia and antarctica were once muslim

That is simply the craziest thing I have ever heard.  I�m sorry Fredifreeloader but you are way off base so you need to show where you got this nonsense.  And I mean �nonsense� in the literal sense because what you said simply does not make any sense. 

Now, according to the Qur�an, there are two problems with �mainstream� Christianity (i.e., Christians err in two ways) which gives rise to the conflicts which we see between Christians and Muslims.  First, they err when they believe in the �trinity�.  The trinity, no matter how you look at it sets Jesus (pbuh) as equals with Allah.  I say this because regardless of which version of the trinity is considered, those who believe in the trinity believe that Jesus (pbuh) is God and not simply a prophet/messenger/servant/slave of God�s.  That is the central problem of Christianity according the Qur�an plain and simple.  The problem is not believing in this or that flavor of the trinity, but rather, it is in believing that any doctrine of the trinity is a part of God�s Divine Revelation/Holy Scription/Book.   

4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

The second way they err is by not acknowledging Muhammad (pbuh) as a true prophet of God.   Notice I didn�t say �THE true prophet of God�, but rather, �A true prophet of God�.  There is no need for a Christian to acknowledge the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the only true prophet of God or even as the prophet whom they follow.  Allah said in the Holy Qur�an:

10:47 To every people (was sent) an apostle: when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.

All prophets of God are indeed true prophets of God, thus there is no reason to follow the example of one over another except for the fact that Allah calls people to His Straight Path through a particular messenger. 

As was shown in ayat 2:285 at the beginning of this post, we should not make distinctions between God�s prophets.  They are all equally messengers and were given the Truth.  However, we must follow them in TRUTH and not in ERR.  In the Holy Qur�an, God reveals that the People of the Book who came before the time of Islam did indeed err by deviating from His TRUTH.

3:110 You are the best nation ever to be produced before mankind.  You enjoin the right, forbid the wrong, and believe in Allah. If the People of the Book were to believe, it would be better for them.  Some of them are believers but most of them are deviators.

So, when Muslims call for Christians to turn to God in TRUTH, they are not saying they have to make Islamic Shahadah.  What they are saying is that they need to stop erring and believe in Jesus (pbuh) in TRUTH (i.e., that he is a Prophet and not God) and that they should acknowledge the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a legitimate prophet of God.  However, for Christians, to do this means that they must give up the trinity doctrine which they simply are not willing to do.  It appears that is far easier for them to reject the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) rather than to try and undo centuries of damage done and giving up the power that was gained by adhering to a false doctrine.  The truth of the matter is that one cannot acknowledge that Muhammad (pbuh) is a true prophet of God without accepting 1.) what was revealed to him by God (i.e., that the trinity is a false doctrine) and 2.) why God sent another prophet after Jesus (pubh) (i.e., that the People of the Book had once again gone far, far astray).

Before I get jumped on, let me say this.  I am not overlooking the fact that the Muslim Ummah is indeed in a sad state at the present time in history.  Muslisms are not immune from the �selfish contumacy� which Allah spoke of in 2:213 (this ayat is quoted earlier in this thread).  It is apparent that in the world today many Muslims have attempted to bend the Holy Qur�an to their traditions and culture rather than submitting their will to Allah.  This is indeed a deviation and the Ummah is suffering the consequences from either doing this themselves or allowing it to happen within their communities.  Muslims who do this or allow it to be done will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment just as other Peoples of the Book who have deviated from the TRUTH will be held accountable for their actions. 

22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

What I have said here is not a means to condemn anyone; doing so is not my job or my right. There is only one who has the right to judge and all People of the Book know who that One is.  As a Muslimah I believe in the Day of Judgment and I make the following du�a which is from 2:285 or the Holy Qur�an:

I hear, and I obey: (I seek) Thy forgiveness, Lord, and to thee is the end of all journeys.  Ameen!

And I try my best every day to live my life such that:

My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (6:162)

And I pray that all People of the Book are guided to do the same.  Ameen!

Ashukru-lillahi Rabbil-Alameen Wala- Hawla  Wala Quwata Illa Billah

Wa Salam

Sister Khadija

well khadija - every religion has its crazy story section.  christianity certainly has.  i have heard from more that one muslim that europe was once muslim, and that when the muslims invaded spain and the balkans, they were only attempting to take back what was theirs already.  otherwise they would have to admit to offensive warfare.  the thing about america is not necessarily nonsense.  we know for instance that christians went to america before columbus, so why not muslims?  see here:

http://www.themuslimwoman.com/chooseyourpath/muslimsbeforecolumbus.htm - http://www.themuslimwoman.com/chooseyourpath/muslimsbeforeco lumbus.htm

ruins of "mosques" were found, as well as inscriptions, and evidence of elephants in arizona.  the craziest muslim story i have heard is that neil armstrong was alleged to have heard the call to prayer on the moon and subsequently converted to islam.  he denied both.  but this is off topic, at least you may find the link i posted of interest

Fredifreeloader, if you knew this was simply one of those stories from the "crazy story" section which you claim all religions have, then why did you make the comment to Angel as if it was a basic tenent of Islam to think this way?  You made it sound as if all Muslims think this way.  Why do you have to be so negative about Islam?  Given what you have said here and on other threads, it appears as if you can't find something which is truly erroneous about Islam, you are willing to throw out stuff like you just did in order to get a jab in.  I think they call that "hitting below the belt" or "dirty fighting".  Why?  I truly want to know why you do this.  Hopeful you do not believe that your behavior is Christ like.  And if you do, Inshallah, you will not continue to do so. 

I strongly suggest to you and all others to try and watch a program called "Three Faiths, One God".  It recently showed on public television.  You may be able to find a copy at your local library or request through your local library for a library loan to borrow it from a library which has it.  You can also obtain a copy of it through the following link:

http://www.threefaithsonegod.com/ - http://www.threefaithsonegod.com/

It is also carried throught the Christian Bookstore.  At least the on-line store does. 

The program involves top scholars from each faith discussing how Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three faiths that share a common message through One God.  It truly is a very wonderful and enlightening program. 

Salam

Sister Khadija

khadija - im not going to respond to your lecturing.  suffice it to say that i said myself the thing was off-topic and therefore probably should not have been raised, but at least i know now that most muslims dont hold these beliefs.

"It is clear by the Holy Qur�an that Fredifreeloader is wrong in saying that Christians or even Jews must enter Islam by taking Islamic Shahadah and thereby becoming a member of the Islamic faith"

i dont know which post of mine youve been reading but i cant think of one in which i said any such thing - however may i point out what the quran says - 3:85 - "if anyone desires a religion other than islam it will never be accepted of him" (yusuf ali)

what you are saying is completely illogical.  the very first item on the list you gave of the characteristics of "righteous" people is that they believe in allah.  well how can they believe in allah unless they believe the quran, the word of allah?  how can they believe in allah unless they believe the message of muhammad, the apostle of allah?

Fred unfortunately it appears that you are a person with pre-conceived notions regarding Islam hence picking out verses just to prove a point. Seeing how you are somewhat of a literalist it would appear that you have missed other verses which (in the mind of a real literalist critique) other verses seemingly contradicting that. Allah also mentions some Christians, Jews and Sabians as among thosewho are righteous. Don't just look at verses and comment on them and disregarding others, you'll leave yourself open for misunderstanding.

Islam literally means Submission to God.

If anyone desires a religion other than Submission to God, it will never be accepted of him.

Find me any of the three Abrahamic religions which believe other than this.

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

fredifreeloader wrote: khadija - im not going to respond to your lecturing.  suffice it to say that i said myself the thing was off-topic and therefore probably should not have been raised, but at least i know now that most muslims dont hold these beliefs.

Fredifreeloader, I was not �lecturing� you.  If you thought the comment was off topic, you should have not put it, especially when it was not your original response.  Yes, I read your initial comment and it did not entail the latter part.  That is why I said it was like your trying to get a �jab in.�  You say that at least you know now that �most muslims don�t hold these beliefs� but you yourself said in an earlier post that it was just one of those �crazy stories� that you claim all religions have.  If you believe that then why would you now say that at least you now know that �most� (Muslims) don�t hold that belief?  Maybe the truth of the matter is that you simply refuse to believe anything positive about Islam and those who worship God through it. 

fredifreeloader wrote: "It is clear by the Holy Qur�an that Fredifreeloader is wrong in saying that Christians or even Jews must enter Islam by taking Islamic Shahadah and thereby becoming a member of the Islamic faith" i dont know which post of mine youve been reading but i cant think of one in which i said any such thing - however may i point out what the quran says - 3:85 - "if anyone desires a religion other than islam it will never be accepted of him" (yusuf ali)

I think I made it clear before that Islam means �submission to God��it doesn�t matter if it is through Judaism, Christianity or Islam.  There is no contradiction here.  All pure forms of faith of the BOOK are just that, �submission to the will of God�.  Judaism is merely a name for the faith of those who follow the Book that was revealed to the Prophet Moses (pbuh) and the requirement of that faith is �submission to the will of God� as opposed to our own will, the same is true with Christianity with the exception that those who follow it do so through the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). 

As I said before, with respect to the faith known as Islam, the phrase �submission to the will of God� is the essence of the message of that faith (as is with Judaism and Christianity) but it is also the name ascribed to that faith, �Islam� (which is not the case with Judaism and Christianity).  So, the ayat you are making reference to simply means what Sister Mishmish points out, and I tried to point out before.  That is, anyone who desires to follow any faith which is not submitting their will to God will never be accepted by God.  It doesn�t mean they have to follow the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).  They can follow any of God�s prophets (pbuh) as long as they are doing so in the pure sense that God meant for them to. 

 

fredifreeloader wrote: what you are saying is completely illogical.  the very first item on the list you gave of the characteristics of "righteous" people is that they believe in allah.  well how can they believe in allah unless they believe the quran, the word of allah?  how can they believe in allah unless they believe the message of muhammad, the apostle of allah?

 

Now I know for sure that you are not here to learn about Islam and that you do not listen to what other here are saying.  At least not to any Muslim because if you had, you would know that the God of Muhammad (pbuh) is the God of Moses (pbuh) and the God of Jesus (pbuh).  Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.  If I say that in order to be righteous a person has to believe in Allah, it simply means he/she has to believe in GOD. 

 

By your statement, are you trying to say that the God of Jesus (pbuh) is not the same God as the God of Moses (pbuh)?  It is clear in the Holy Qur�an that the God of Moses (pbuh) is the same as the God of Muhammad (pbuh) and the God of Jesus (pbuh) is the same as well.  Maybe the problem you have is that you simply cannot accept that the God of the Holy Qur�an is the same as the God of Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh).  If so, why not?  You believe that the God of Jesus (pbuh) is the same as the God of Moses (pbuh) even though the Jews won�t accept the Gospel.  Muslims accept both the Gospel and the Torah (of course we believe there are some corruptions made to it by men but we do believe that the Torah and Gospel were originally the pure, divine revelation of God and we believe in all of God�s messengers (pbut)).

 

fredifreeloader wrote: also the real issue has not been addressed, namely the question of "true christianity"

 

I answered that question in my last post (and above); however, you really don�t care what I say.  Your mind is made up.  But here it is again.  True Christianity = True Judaism = True Islam�because in their true form, they all mean �submission to the will of God�.  And once again, they all have the following characteristics:

 

They believe in:

�          God = Eloh (Hebrew), Alah (Aramaic), Allah (Arabic)     

�        The Last Day (That is, the Day of Judgment)

�        The Angels

�        The Book (That is, the Holy Scripture, Divine Revelation, as revealed by God to His chosen Messengers), and

�        The Messengers (That is, although true believers follow the example of one, they believe in, respect and love them all equally).

        They also:

�        Spend of their substance, out of love for God

�        Are steadfast in prayer

�        Practice regular charity

�        Fulfill the contracts which they have made

�        Are firm and patient in pain and adversity

 

I changed Allah to God so that an Arabic word won�t hang you up.  However, I also gave the correct word for �God� according to the language each of the prophets (pbut) used in delivering the message.  The interesting thing�one you might want to note�is that they can all be pronounced the same, they mean the same (i.e., God), the root verb of each means �to take an oath� and the verb form of each is the same as well, that is, the verb of each is �to worship�.

 

The author, Dennis Giron, of �Allah in the Jewish Bible�, which is found on the web site jews-for-allah.org sited below, states the following:

Let me make it more clear....

1. We have made the connection in terms of spelling, as all these words are spelled similar to one another.
2. The geographic connection is there, as these respective languages originate in regions that are very close to one another.
3. The roots are also basically the same.

The meanings are essentially the same.

 

So, although I changed the word to �God�, it should not matter whether I use the word Eloh, Alah, or Allah, because they all �essentially� mean the same which translates to the English word �God�.

 

I�m sure you are not going to agree with something I have to say so let me give you the links to find this information:

 

Hebrew (Eloh): go to http://jews-for-allah.org/Why-Believe-in-Allah/Allah-inthe-Jewish-Bible.htm - http://jews-for-allah.org/Why-Believe-in-Allah/Allah-inthe-J ewish-Bible.htm . 

 

Aramaic (Alah): go to http://www.pesh*tta.org/ - http://www.pesh*tta.org/ (this is the Pesh*tta Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament) and click on tools and then Lexicon.  Then type in God in the Search Engine.  Then simply go down and look at the pronunciation for God in the Aramaic.  It will say (Eastern) AaLaH and (Western) AaLoH. 

 

Ashukru-lillahi Rabbil-Alameen Wala- Hawla  Wala Quwata Illa Billah

 

PAZ

Sister Khadija

-------------
Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)

Athanasius wrote: ...Most importantly, I would like to point out that orthodox Muslims believe that the Chrisitan and Jewish Scriptures have been totally perverted and no longer reflect the teachings of Moses, Jesus, etc.  Isn't that true? The Injil of Christ, they teach, is not what Christians believe, correct?

My dear bro Athan, its not just "orthodox" Muslims only who thinks that the present bible is not the original message that was revealed to the prophets prior to Prophet Mohammad i.e. from Moses till Jesus. This fact is known and told by the Christian Biblical scholars themselves. Just for the case of NT, though the present Bible do contain some of the truth revealed from God to Prophet Jesus, however, the overall message has been so mingled up with the other narrations, that it is nearly impossible to discern truth from the rest.  For an example, have you ever heard the name of "Q" gospel and its where abouts? If not, then this may be a good clue for someone to learn where the stance of present day Biblical scholar is, on the originality of the gospels.

The Q document is a theory, and has never been demonstrated to be fact.  You must understand that there are liberals and apostates within the Christian Church who attempt to discredit the Scriptures.  Have you ever read anything by John Spong, for instance? His writings would generally deny the authenticity of Scripture and cast doubt on core Christian doctrines. 

I think that Muslims need to provide archeological and empirical evidence for their claim that the Christian Gospel was not transmitted to the Church and is now perverted.  Where is that proof? We have very ancient manuscripts of the original Christian documents, and for all practical purposes, they are the same.

One could make the claim, for instance, that the Quran has been changed and rewritten so that now Muslims do not have the Quran as it was originally given.  You would ask for archeological proof, is that not so?

You have been told that the Christian texts have been distorted - however, Mohammed never said that in the Quran.  In fact, he spoke of Christians as "People of the Book." 

So, unless you are willing to present documentation and empirical evidence that the NT manuscripts have been changed, you must understand that Christians will reject any such claim.

Fredi, it is obvious that you have not read what I said with an open mind but rather are only trying to prove your point.  If I say A=B, then it must be true that B=A as well, right?  So, if A=B=C, then all of the combinations of that must also be true (that is, A=B=C; A=C=B; B=C=A; B=A=C; C=A=B; C=B=A).  So, True Christianity = True Islam just as True Islam = True Christianity (and the same with True Judaism).  Why is that you might ask?  Because A = submission to the will of God; B= submission to the will of God; C = submission to the will of God.  Why is it so hard for you to understand that without accusing Muslims of saying that a person has to enter the Islamic religion if they are to be counted amongst the righteous?  If your claim is true, than why would God say more than just once in the Divine Revelation of the Holy Qur'an that there are some people of the Book (be they people of the Torah, Gospel or Qur'an) who are amongst the righteous? 

So, NO, I am not saying in any manner--way, shape, or forum--that what you said is right.  Because what you claim is that A (Christianity) does not = B (Islam) and that B expects A to become B.  In your opinion, Muslims expect A (Christianity) to change so that they become B (Islam).  There is a big difference in what you claim and what is the truth.

PAZ

Sister Khadija

Athanasius, you are wrong, this thread is titled "For Khadija-what is true christianity" which means that Angel was asking "ME"...I am the only member here with the name "Khadija"...what true christianity is.  In other words, she wanted to know what I think it is.  And I told her. 

Regardless of what you may think, the Muslims who visit this web site do not want to come here to discuss Christianity.  We would much rather come here to discuss and learn about Islam.  However, because people like you and your friends come here to harass us, we end up discussing the issue. 

PAZ

Sister Khadija

BismillahirRahmanirRaheem,

Ma'ShahAllah, Sister Khadija!  Your explanation of Islaam in this post exemplifies knowledge, patience and fortitude.  JazzakAllahKhayr.

"Why is it so hard for you to understand that without accusing Muslims of saying that a person has to enter the Islamic religion if they are to be counted amongst the righteous?"

why are you persisting with this, khadija? - for the second time, i have not said this.  also, why are you using the word "accusing"?  i have neither said this, nor accused people of it.  all i said was that "muslims believe "true christianity" to be islam".  i did not ask you to give what you consider to be valid reasons for this, i merely said it was the case.  now this is my last contribution to this thread, so have the last word if you like

Hi Kadija, just something easy and quick for starters, you have said much, I have to go over it again but will get back to you later, I am not finish although there is not much to respond but have to go to bed and refresh my head its almost 4am.

However, for Christians, to do this means that they must give up the trinity doctrine which they simply are not willing to do.  It appears that is far easier for them to reject the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) rather than to try and undo centuries of damage done and giving up the power that was gained by adhering to a false doctrine.

well, I'm not sure if you can speak for all Christians, I know for a fact that Catholics while performing the "in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit/ghost" while you have the trinity there, there is no belief that Jesus is God. No one I have come across has ever believed that. I mentioend this before. Catholics go with the bible and Jesus never said he was God. 

Athanasius wrote: I would have to say that there are many Christian scholars who would disagree with you Khadija, regarding the use of "allah" for God.  But, I will save that for another time.

May I ask the christian people who will inevitabitly participate NOT to inject what is right or wrong here according to christianity or what it says to be the truth. In other words I don't want you to correct what you see as wrong.

Athan I don't care what Christian scholars say at this point,  not in this thread anyway  

gone to bed now, more later

Angel said:

"well, I'm not sure if you can speak for all Christians, I know for a fact that Catholics while performing the "in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit/ghost" while you have the trinity there, there is no belief that Jesus is God. No one I have come across has ever believed that. I mentioend this before. Catholics go with the bible and Jesus never said he was God. "

This is just either a misunderstanding or blatant lie.  Catholics uphold the Deity of Christ, as do Protestants and Eastern Orthodox.  Read the Nicene Creed - where did you get this rediculous idea. 

And by the way, jack, if you don't believe in Christ's deity you are no Christian.

Torrencedelay wrote: This is just either a misunderstanding or blatant lie.  Catholics uphold the Deity of Christ, as do Protestants and Eastern Orthodox.  Read the Nicene Creed - where did you get this rediculous idea.

I got the idea from scriptures, what about you! I have never come across that Jesus said he was God!!! Nor from any other Catholics The man himself told me

And by the way, jack, if you don't believe in Christ's deity you are no Christian.

Oh shut up!! Take your scabbles to another thread! Read my writings in the reddish colour. This thread is about islam and what it believes what true christainity is! And my discussion with Khajida. And any furthur disruption I will have the moderators delete any post that isn't, from anyone. If your not happy go to another thread.

Now back to the topic!

-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

ak_m_f wrote: True christanity is what people followed During time of Jesus (PBUH), This was before the Idea of Trinity theory.

yes, well that does make sense but I don't think it was called Christainity  I don't think there was a name.

HI Khadija, I have gone over the thread and re-read your post again, but I'm going to disappear again and ponder about it, if I have anything I will come back

But I do want to say this, the person who said that Jesus never had a book, I must agree with them, as far as know Jesus never had a book, the bible - that was written sometime after, I would say it would be His oral teachings during his three years of ministry, for which there are his transmission (is that the right word?) spoken down thru others then finially into the gospels. ok i guess called say he had a book

Now for Moses, as I understand he didn't have a book revealed to him, the only thing was the 2 stone tablets with the ten commandments as law, for the followers/believers to obey (and by obeying that you submit to God. (well something like that))

Ok, be back later gtg    

Bismillah,

The name wouldn't have been Christianity because I believe the language Jesus, pbuh, was Aramaic, which is similar to Arabic in its structure.  So it would have been something like the structure The Son of David, The followers of Issa...

Hello Khajida, I�m back and I would like to say thank you for your post.

Khajida you keep saying the People of the Book, that pretty much means only 1 book. But if all 3 are following their own scriptures it is more than 1 book, there are 3 books � granted as you have mentioned �submission to the will of God� is the bases of them thru by following God�s  commands/guidance, in each book, so I am not sure how you keep mentioning people of the book. I thought it was the qu�ran but from your talks it seems to be another book? Highlighted in this paragraph of your below: But I will say no they don�t believe in the same book, what each believe is the submission to God�s will.

So, according to the Holy Qur�an, all righteous people of the Book are brethren because they all adhere to the same beliefs because they all believe in the same Book.  Allah only sent more than one prophet with the message (the Book) because many went astray after having received clear guidance:

So, what separates the people of the book is not that they believe in different scriptures, but rather, that some have �gone far, far astray�. 

Believing or adhering to the same beliefs that you pointed out in blue text, does not really make all 3 families believe in the same book, as you pointed out �they all believe in the same book�. If all three believed in the book or one book they would be and would be following the guidance of that one book but are not. Each do not believe in the same book, they acknowledge each other�s books but they don�t necessarily believe in them. If you truly believe in them you�ll be interchanging between the three, and I�m sure there are problems with that.

Even though all 3 peoples come from the Abrahamic line, each family has their own scriptures to follow with the same / common adherence as pointed out (in blue text of yours) in each other but are fundamental different in many ways and because of that you cannot really say and I quote you �people of the book are brethren because they all adhere to the same beliefs because they all believe in the same book�.

Despite all 3 coming from the Abrahamic line.

And I am not sure how you can say this is true Christianity because of something in common and among each three. You include Jews and muslims here, that is saying all 3 is true Christianity or islam or judaism and its not. (and obviously I�ve picked up your equation which I see problems explain later).

With your hard work that you put into your post, Khadija, and I much liked reading it, you talk about the people of the book, all 3: jews, christains and muslims and the same beliefs adhering to some common elements but you have not really explained as to what is �true Christianity�.  I think if one is going to talk or explain true Christianity you would be specifically be talking about it and not the commonalities of ALL righteous people of the book.

I can even equally ask you what is the true Judaism according to you or islam.

Bringing up commonalities does not constitute what is true �insert name of group� I think if you believe or know what true Christianity is or what is the true Jewish faith according to islam then you should be able to state what it is, not what all 3 have in common.

That is, Christians are not required to follow the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) because their prophet is Jesus (pbuh) and Jews are not required to follow the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) either because their prophet is Moses (pbuh).  They each should follow their perspective prophets.

I understand that, that people of the book who are not muslim do not need to convert/revert unless they choose islam & qu�ran as their religion therefore take the shahada.

From what I can work out to get what is true Christianity is this: (going from what is not true christianity from what you produced):

*Believing in the trinity doctrine not necessarily the trinity itself (as you mentioned �the problem is not believing in this or that flavour of the trinity but rather��)

*Believing that Jesus is God � because of the trinity [and you know my view on that]

*Not acknowledging Muhammed

*Not following Jesus in truth (as you said yourself that Christians have gone far far astray, afterwards again)

*And that the bible/scriptures is corrupted so therefore Christians wouldn't be following the true (their) path.

Now from this I guess everything else is true Christianity which is ?

If I say A=B, then it must be true that B=A as well, right?  So, if A=B=C, then all of the combinations of that must also be true (that is, A=B=C; A=C=B; B=C=A; B=A=C; C=A=B; C=B=A).  So, True Christianity = True Islam just as True Islam = True Christianity (and the same with True Judaism).  Why is that you might ask?  Because A = submission to the will of God; B= submission to the will of God; C = submission to the will of God. 

I don�t know how your equation can be, it makes no sense really, just because all 3 have some thing in common �submission to the will of God� does not make it to be true Christianity = true islam = true Judaism. To say that is to say that it is fine to use all 3 interchangable whenever you feel like it, since all 3 have the belief of one thing and some characteristic in common its fine to swap religions BUT it is NOT fine, islam even say so that its not fine. Islam is suppose to be the final true path not using each other interchangeable/swaping from time to time even if its in the truest essence of each other. Khadija your equation allows that and I believe (according to islam) that is wrong.

Now again this doesn�t really explain what �true Christianity� is, yes we have submission to the will of God, Jesus as the Prophet and what is in the bible and some common characteristic with a couple of other religious groups, that is all.

As for the injeel I will state what I mentioned in my first post: All that is mentioned is that you believe in the injeel, but cannot say what part of the bible /scriptures of christianity is the injeel. If you don't know what part or what is the injeel then how can you know what is the true christianity ? 

Mishmish wrote: Islam literally means Submission to God. If anyone desires a religion other than Submission to God, it will never be accepted of him. Find me any of the three Abrahamic religions which believe other than this.

Christians teach that submission is to Jesus (to him every knee will bow); in a way, therefore, it is in agreement with Islam on this, since all Christians view Christ as God.

Bismillah,

Christians teach that submission is to Jesus (to him every knee will bow); in a way, therefore, it is in agreement with Islam on this, since all Christians view Christ as God.

WHAT???

Ali Baba,

From you: "Christians teach that submission is to Jesus (to him every knee will bow); in a way, therefore, it is in agreement with Islam on this, since all Christians view Christ as God."

In Islam, there is an important point that even the knee of Jesus bowed to God Almighty and his whole body fell in prostration before God Almighty, with his forehead on the ground three times.

Have you read in the Bible that Jesus prayed to God, while his disciples and followers slept and could not even watch? If Jesus prayed to God, then he cannot be taken as a God at all. Period, dear!

Hope you wouldn't tell me now that the 100% human Jesus was praying at that time.

BR

BMZ

bmzsp wrote: Ali Baba, From you: "Christians teach that submission is to Jesus (to him every knee will bow); in a way, therefore, it is in agreement with Islam on this, since all Christians view Christ as God." In Islam, there is an important point that even the knee of Jesus bowed to God Almighty and his whole body fell in prostration before God Almighty, with his forehead on the ground three times. Have you read in the Bible that Jesus prayed to God, while his disciples and followers slept and could not even watch? If Jesus prayed to God, then he cannot be taken as a God at all. Period, dear! Hope you wouldn't tell me now that the 100% human Jesus was praying at that time. BR BMZ

BMZ,

Jesus prayed in many positions as you would know if you have read the New Testament.

Jesus praying to God does not contradict the Triunity of God.  Notice that Jesus never prayed for God to forgive his sins.  There is a communication between the Father and the Son.  Jesus was communicating with the Father.

ak_m_f wrote: ok so Jesus is God? I am confued, some say he is not god, some say he is carnation of God, some say he is the god. what is he in christanity? what christanity says about Jesus ? makeup ur mind

True Christians are Othodox Christians and they believe in the Triunity of God.  There are some people who call themselves Christians who fall outside of Orthodox Christianity.

There are some, for instance, who do not believe in the Triunity of God and yet, still believe that Jesus is God, based on their interpretation of Scriptures.  They believe that it was the Father who incarnated Jesus.  Sort of like God playing different roles" The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit--all God in different roles.

Perhaps some of the confusion about who is a Christian and what is a Christian comes from the fact that Christians are allowed to interpret their own scriptures.  For a long time the Catholic church would not allow this, but I know many Catholic that do their own interpreting.  They are usually the younger ones--40 and below.  The older ones rely on the Church.  All Catholics believe in the triunity of God.

Most Protestant churches believe in the trinuity of God, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptists, and the like.  They may disagree on small matters.

I know a fella who believes that the God of the Old Testament is a different God than the God in the New Testament, but he calls himself a Christian and gets angry if someone suggests that he is not. 

Anyone can call themselves anything that want to; it is their choice.

bmzsp wrote: Ali Baba, From you: "Christians teach that submission is to Jesus (to him every knee will bow); in a way, therefore, it is in agreement with Islam on this, since all Christians view Christ as God." In Islam, there is an important point that even the knee of Jesus bowed to God Almighty and his whole body fell in prostration before God Almighty, with his forehead on the ground three times. Have you read in the Bible that Jesus prayed to God, while his disciples and followers slept and could not even watch? If Jesus prayed to God, then he cannot be taken as a God at all. Period, dear! Hope you wouldn't tell me now that the 100% human Jesus was praying at that time. BR BMZ

Hello, did you know that Sun Myung Moon, the prophet of the Unification Church, says that he visited God in heaven and that Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha and the other religious leaders all bowed down to him?

~deleted for Angel's sanity~ 

To the guys who wrote the last 8 posts, what part of my writings didn't you understand in red ?

May I ask the christian people who will inevitabitly participate NOT to inject what is right or wrong here according to christianity or what it says to be the truth. In other words I don't want you to correct what you see as wrong.

This thread is on what islam says about what true christianity is and my discussions with Khadija.

To the moderators, is there anyway of the last 8 post to be moved to a new thread ? and after delete this one of mine ?

Angel,

Sorry....anyway, If Islam teaches that Jesus's message was corrupted in the NT.  Then I must ask what they believe happened to the Injeel? Since the letters of Peter, James and John are suspect in Islamic belief.