Who is the Comforter?
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Topic: Who is the Comforter?
Posted By: George
Subject: Who is the Comforter?
Date Posted: 19 April 2006 at 7:22am
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Muslims say it is Muhammad. Christians say it is the Holy Spirit of God. On what basis do you make their claim?
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Replies:
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 19 April 2006 at 8:41am
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The biblical interpretation of the Paraclete (Comforter) predates Muhammad. I don't think I've ever heard a Muslim refer to Muhammad as the biblical Comforter.
------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 19 April 2006 at 9:18am
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As far as I have been told, all Muslims believe that Muhammad is the Comforter. They say that Jesus prophecized the coming of Muhammad in Jesus' Gospel and this is it. |
DavidC wrote:Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 19 April 2006 at 9:23am
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I'm not even sure what you mean by the Comforter. I have never heard the Prophet Mohammed described in this manner. Muslims do not infer any divinity on the Prophets. The only distinction between the Prophet Mohammed and the other Prophets is that he was the last Prophet. ------------- It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince) |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 19 April 2006 at 9:32am
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If we look at the Christian view, the Holy Spirit filled up Jesus. Now Jesus mentioned that if he did not go the Comforter would not come. Jesus had to make way for the Comforter. The Comforter could not have been the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit were to come, Jesus would have said so clearly. He did not. The Comforter had to be some man, as is evident from the biblical text. Only Muhammad fits that role well. Any objections? BMZ |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 19 April 2006 at 9:42am
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Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 19 April 2006 at 11:09am
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bmz - the Lord Jesus clearly said the comforter was the Holy Spirit - see john 14: 16, 17 (which also indicates that he cannot be seen, i never heard anyone say muhammad was invisible) - also john 14: 26 - "the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost" ------------- for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16 |
Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 19 April 2006 at 11:32am
So If the disciples knew him then he must be long dead because they are dead too, therefore there will be no comforter. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 20 April 2006 at 7:32am
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So If the disciples knew him then he must be long dead because they are dead too, therefore there will be no comforter. /QUOTE] This is the Holy Spirit I'm talking about: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and The Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." (Genesis 1:1-2) "So Pharaoh asked them, "Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is The Spirit of God?" Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, "Since God has made all this known to you, there is no one so discerning and wise as you." (Genesis 41:38-39) "The Lord said to Moses, "Bring Me seventy of Israel's elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to The Tent Of Meeting, that they may stand there with you. I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of The Spirit that is on you and put The Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so you will not have to carry it alone." (Numbers 11:16-17) "The woman gave birth to a boy and named him Samson. He grew and The Lord blessed him, and The Spirit of The Lord began to stir him..." (Judges 13:24-25) "The Spirit of The Lord will come upon you [Saul] in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person." (1 Samuel 10:6) "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of The Almighty gives me life." (Job 33:4) "When you send Your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth." (Psalm 104:30) The Comforter, sometimes refered to as "Helper" is identified in the Scriptures as the Holy Spirit by Jesus.
Jesus is not talking about a prophet or an angel. Yes, Jesus' disciples knew the Holy Spirit and his work, but he is not dead. |
Posted By: HyungMeng
Date Posted: 20 April 2006 at 8:59am
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Yes, I have likewise heard that Muslims teach that Mohammed was the Paraclete prophesied in the NT. It's interesting that the Bahai faith people also claim this for Baha'u'allah. But a careful reading of Jesus' words indicate that the Paraclete is none other than the Holy Spirit who is God. Now, Jesus said to baptize in God's Name, which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Therefore, it appears that neither Mohammed or Baha'u'allah could be the Paraclete, the Comforter. |
Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 20 April 2006 at 9:07am
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Christians believe that God is a Trinity of Persons all of equal power, substance and glory. In the Church of England, this is confirmed by the 39 Articles. Here is that very article written in Old English: I. Of fayth in the holy Trinitie.There is but one lyuyng and true God, euerlastyng, without body, partes, or passions, of infinite power, wysdome, and goodnesse, the maker and preseruer of al things both visible and inuisible. And in vnitie of this Godhead there be three persons, of one substaunce, power, and eternitie, the father, the sonne, and the holy ghost. I don't know of any Christian Churches that don't believe in the Trinity. If a sect doesn't believe in the Trinity then how could they be Christian? |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 April 2006 at 9:55am
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Baba, The Filipino Christians are the best lot. In their daily life, they just don't talk about God and the Holy Ghost. They just talk of Jesus only in everything e.g., Jesus will do this, Jesus will do that, Jesus is looking at you, Jesus loves you, Jesus cares for you and Jesus takes care of you and so on. At least they don't complicate the things at all. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 20 April 2006 at 10:27am
Very good, BMZ. Guess the Filipino Christians have cut through the "red tape" that you get yourself so confused by and attribute all to Jesus who they consider God. Works for me. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 April 2006 at 10:41pm
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That was exactly my point. You don't need all that red tape. Just say it loud that Jesus is the God Almighty and forget God and the Holy Spirit. You would never need Trinity or a Tri-unity. This is evident from the fact that Jesus never taught trinity. Jesus always maintained God the Most High, very high above himself. Life will be so easy for Christians when they discuss the One God. You will be almost at par with the Jews and Muslims but they will still not be recognising Jesus as God or a god. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 21 April 2006 at 6:24am
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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 21 April 2006 at 6:26am
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Notice to all. My topic is getting sidetracked. Please remember the subject is Who is the Comforter? and not trinity and other stuff. Please keep in topic.
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Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 21 April 2006 at 8:47am
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george - of course its getting side-tracked. what did you epect? ------------- for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16 |
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:23am
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John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Acts 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
Muhammed I found this site that also has defenders notes from a mainstream Christian. (So as not to offend any of the other Chrisitans here.) http://www.holybible.com/resources/KJV_DFND/index.php?Book=68&mode=4&BookTitle=John&Chapter=14 - http://www.holybible.com/resources/KJV_DFND/index.php?Book=6 8&mode=4&BookTitle=John&Chapter=14 |
did not abide with us forever, but passed away as all mortal men do. Posted By: George
Date Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:58am
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Hi Fred, I expected what I got and I'm going to do my best to get it back on track. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 21 April 2006 at 10:01am
Yes, Angela, the Comforter is the Holy Spirit of God and cannot be a man and; thus, is not Muhammad. There are other reasons why it is not Muhammad. I hope to have something logic on this soon, but now I must go attend to personal business. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 22 April 2006 at 6:22am
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In order to properly interpret John 16:12-13, you need to go back to John 13:31 and read through Chapter 16. Jesus is with His disciples and He is explaining to them that He is going away. They love him and don't completely understand why He is leaving. He's comforting them.
Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit of God (the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter).
John 14:16-18, (16) "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever�(17) "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (18) "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you."
John: 15:26-27, (26) "But when the Comforter comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. (27) And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning."
Note: Muhammad does not proceed from God. He will testify of me�There is very little in the Koran that testifies of Jesus.
John: 16-7-11, (7) "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you, but if I depart, I will send him to you. (8) And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment: (9) of sin, because they do not believe in me. (10) of righteousness, because I go to My father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."
Since Muhammad came 500 years later, what would be the purpose of Jesus saying He had to go away for the Comforter to come? Jesus (if not crucified) and His disciples would have been long gone by the time Muhammad came on the scene.
This Comforter would convict the world of sin because they do not believe in me. The Koran says Jesus was a only prophet and rejects all else that he was. Muslims do not believe that Jesus was the King Messiah.
John 16:12-15, (12) "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. (13) However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. (14) He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is mine and declare it to you. (15) All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that he will take of mine, and declare it to you."
Glorify means to make glorious by bestowing honor, praise or admiration; to elevate to celestial (heavenly or divine) glory; to give glory to (as in worship).
Muhammad certainly did not do this.
There are seven reasons for concluding that the promised Comforter was the divine Holy Spirit who Jesus promised would come to his disciples shortly after his ascension to heaven and not Muhammad. They are:
1. He will give you Another Comforter Jesus specifically told his disciples that he would send the promised Comforter to them. He repeated the promise later by saying "I will send him to you" (John 16.7). Thus the coming of the Spirit of Truth, also specifically declared to be the Holy Spirit (John 14.26), was something the disciples of Jesus were to expect in their lifetime and environment.
Muhammad appeared six centuries later.
2. He will give you Another Comforter Muslims claim that the original title was periklutos. There is no historical evidence of this.
But, if the original title was periklutos (Muslims claim periklutos means praised one which they take to mean Muhammad), then the sentence would have read "He will give you another praised one (or another Muhammad)." It not only makes no sense but is completely out of context. What Jesus is saying here is simply: "I have been your comforter, your counselor and adviser. I have yet many things to teach you, but I will send you another counselor and guide like me." He had come from heaven and had taken human form for the duration of his short life on earth. He would send another spirit from above to fulfill his ministry to his followers.
The Koran confirms that Jesus came from God, calling him a "spirit from him" (ruhun-minhu), a title given to no other human being in the book (Surah 58.22). In the only other instance where the Koran speaks of a ruhun-minhu, it speaks of a spirit whom God sends into the hearts of true believers to strengthen them - precisely who the Holy Spirit is. So the Koran agrees that there were only two spirits whom God has ever sent from himself into the world, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, each one a paracletos, a guide and mentor, to comfort and lead the true followers of God on earth.
3. To be with you forever.
When Muhammad came to the fore as the Prophet of Islam in Arabia in the 7th century after Christ he did not stay with his companions forever but died at the age of 62 years. He was buried in Medina where his body has lain for nearly fourteen centuries. Jesus stated that the promised Comforter, however, would be with his disciples forever and the Holy Spirit has done just that, living in the hearts of all true followers of Jesus to this day.
4. The Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive The Koran says that Muhammad came as a universal messenger to all mankind (Surah 34.28). If so Jesus could not have been speaking about him for he declared that the world as a whole cannot receive the Spirit of Truth. Only the true followers of Jesus, who turn to him as their Savior and Lord, can be born anew of the Holy Spirit and become heirs of eternal life.
5. You know Him
It is quite obvious from this statement that Jesus� disciples already knew the Spirit of Truth. As Muhammad was born more than five hundred years later it could not have been him. The Comforter was a Spirit with whom the disciples were already familiar. The next clause states precisely how he was already known to them.
6. He dwells with you
When Jesus first came to John the Baptist to be baptized by him at the very beginning of his ministry, the heavens were opened and John himself records what happened next:
I saw the Spirit descend as a dove from heaven, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him; but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, �He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit�. John 1.32-33 The Spirit of Truth was at all times in the person of Jesus himself, and in this manner the disciples of Jesus had already come to know him.
At no time could Muhammad have been said to have already been with Jesus' disciples.
7. He Will be in You
As the Spirit was already in Jesus, so it would also enter into and be forever present in the hearts of Jesus� disciples once he had returned to heaven. This happened on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out on all who heard the Word of God and the Gospel of Jesus for the first time. God�s love continues to be poured into the hearts of those who turn in faith to Jesus through the same Holy Spirit given to them. The Greek word here is en, meaning right inside you. The promise clearly cannot refer to Muhammad who has never entered personally into the hearts of all true Christian believers. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 22 April 2006 at 9:14am
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George, Whether Muhammad was the Comforter or not, does not really matter to me as a Muslim. It does not affect his being a Prophet and a servant of God. I have some comments on your post: You wrote:"In order to properly interpret John 16:12-13, you need to go back to John 13:31 and read through Chapter 16. Jesus is with His disciples and He is explaining to them that He is going away. They love him and don't completely understand why He is leaving. He's comforting them." If you look at the questions that were put to him by his disciples throughout his short ministry, you will notice that they never understood him anyway. They used to ask him unnecessary questions. Take for example an statement,"I am going, from where no one comes back.", and the disciples ask,"What does he mean by that?" Even a tribesman in the jungles of Amazon would understand that. From you and I have also heard this reason given by many that "Muhammad appeared six centuries later." Jesus came 1,500 years after Moses. Moses came a thousand years after Abraham. In all those years, the message of God always remained the same and all prophets conveyed the same. If Muhammad had come fifty years after Jesus the message of God Almighty would have been the same.
Moses came 1,500 years before Jesus but did not bring the message that the God of Hebrews and the Jews was a triune God or a Trinity.
From you: "The Koran confirms that Jesus came from God, calling him a "spirit from him" (ruhun-minhu), a title given to no other human being in the book (Surah 58.22). In the only other instance where the Koran speaks of a ruhun-minhu, it speaks of a spirit whom God sends into the hearts of true believers to strengthen them - precisely who the Holy Spirit is. So the Koran agrees that there were only two spirits whom God has ever sent from himself into the world, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, each one a paracletos, a guide and mentor, to comfort and lead the true followers of God on earth.
No, that is not what Qur'aan agrees. Qur'aan does not even suggest that. Ruhumminhu simply means that Jesus was created in his mother's womb and given life by God only. Holy Spirit in Qur'aan is the title given to Gabriel.
BMZ
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Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 22 April 2006 at 9:31am
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bmz - so the matter of muhammad being the "comforter" is of no importance to you. that being so, where exactly is muhammad to be found in the bible? - remember he said that he was in the bible - so if he is not then he is certainly no prophet. consider also john 14: 26 - where the Lord clearly states that the comforter is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father would send in Christs name, and link it to acts 1: 5,6, where the apostles were told to wait in Jerusalem until they were baptised with the Holy Ghost, not many days hence. so they were to wait in Jerusalem for this event. if it refers to muhammad, then rather a long wait i would have thought, but the scriptures say it would be not many days hence, and so it proved to be ------------- for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16 |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 22 April 2006 at 12:17pm
So, whether Muhammad is the comforter or not no longer matters to you. That is probably a good thing considering the following logic. The New Testament passages that receive the most attention from Muslims that they believe is a prophecy of the coming of Muhammad are found in the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to John (14:15-17, 25-26; 15:26; 16:7-15). These passages record Jesus Christ's promise that the Holy Spirit (also known as the Advocate or Comforter) will come after him. Muslims claim that the Holy Spirit is actually the prophet Muhammad. However, there is a major problem with this Muslim claim. When Jesus Christ spoke about the coming of the Holy Spirit he mentioned a number of very important things. Jesus Christ told his disciples that he would send the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit would come in his name (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7). The Holy Spirit's mission involves testifying on behalf of Jesus Christ and glorifying Jesus Christ (John 15:26; 16:14). Jesus Christ said the Holy Spirit would receive what belongs to Jesus and declare it to believers (John 16:13-14). These truths are very important for assessing the Muslim claim that Muhammad is the promised Holy Spirit. Muslims believe that Muhammad is God's final and universal prophet. They believe that Muhammad was sent by God and came in the name of God. Islam says that Muhammad's mission involved testifying on behalf of God and bringing glory to God. The central task of Muhammad's mission, according to Islam, was to receive the word of God (the Koran) and declare it to the people. There is a major flaw in this Muslim claim, which I recommend Muslims consider before using this argument. The application of the promise to Muhammad implies that Jesus Christ is God, as I will demonstrate below. Muhammad denied that Jesus Christ is God, and this denial is strongly maintained in the Muslim world today. In other words, the Muslim claim that the promised Holy Spirit is Muhammad contradicts one of the major teachings of their religion. The Muslim identification of Muhammad with the Holy Spirit in John's Gospel implies the Divinity of Jesus Christ in five ways: 1. Muslims believe that Muhammad came in the name of God. If Muhammad is the Comforter then Jesus Christ is God, because the Comforter comes "in the name of Jesus Christ" (John 14:26). 2. Muslims believe that God sent Muhammad. If Muhammad is the Comforter then Jesus Christ is God, because Jesus Christ sends the Comforter (John 15:26; 16:7). 3. Muslims believe that Muhammad testified on behalf of God. If Muhammad is the Comforter then Jesus Christ is God, because the Comforter testifies on behalf of Jesus Christ (John 15:26). 4. Muslims believe that Muhammad came to bring glory to God. If Muhammad is the Comforter then Jesus Christ is God, because the Comforter comes to bring glory to Jesus Christ (John 16:14). 5. Muslims believe that Muhammad received what belongs to God and declared it to people (i.e. the word of God). If Muhammad is the Comforter then Jesus Christ is God, because the Comforter receives what belongs to Jesus Christ and declares it to believers (John 16:13-14). |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 22 April 2006 at 7:02pm
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Fredi, From you: "bmz - so the matter of muhammad being the "comforter" is of no importance to you. that being so, where exactly is muhammad to be found in the bible? - remember he said that he was in the bible - so if he is not then he is certainly no prophet." Neither Muhammad said that he was in the Bible nor Qur'aan says that Muhammad was in the Bible. Qur'aan does not mention the term Bible at all. Qur'aan specifically names only Torah and the Injeel. The entire NT is NOT the Injeel and the entire OT is not the Torah. Lots of other books have been thrown out under the cover of apocrypha. The words in the four gospels had been forged to suit the Nicene creed. If you read carefully, you will find that it was Muhammad who was to come after Jesus, not the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit had really come at the pentecost, it would not have taken 365 years of infighting, arguments and philosophies as to who Jesus was, by various famed scholars and priests some of whom were kicked out, to conclude a Nicean Creed. We can thus say that in reality, that no Holy Spirit came as the Comforter after Jesus. The Holy Spirit according to Christian literature had already filled Jesus and had been there before him and had covered him. It had to be a new Holy Spirit this time and note the word Comforter which does not translate well at all into Holy Spirit. BMZ |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 22 April 2006 at 7:18pm
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George, From you:"When Jesus Christ spoke about the coming of the Holy Spirit he mentioned a number of very important things. Jesus Christ told his disciples that he would send the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit would come in his name (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7). The Holy Spirit's mission involves testifying on behalf of Jesus Christ and glorifying Jesus Christ (John 15:26; 16:14). Jesus Christ said the Holy Spirit would receive what belongs to Jesus and declare it to believers (John 16:13-14). " The above suggests and confirms simply the failed or the aborted mission and Jesus in above cofnrims the same. You know well that his ministry hardly lasted for one year and some say it lasted only three years. It was a failed a mission. God knew that. Jesus knew that well too. Had his mission been successful, he would not have said so. Regarding your "becasue Jesus Christ is God" series in above post, God has clearly declared in Isaiah that there in no other God and God does not give glory to anyone. God's words do not change and Isaiah stands. Jesus is no God. Do you agree with what God said in Isaiah repeatedly? |
Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 23 April 2006 at 1:09am
bmz - the bible does not mention the term "bible" - the Lord Jesus stated categorically that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. your assertion that parts of the Word of God have been "thrown out" and "forged" is futile - even the quran says "there is none to change the words of Allah" - you are saying that Allah has not been able to preserve his word. also, muslims on this forum have been saying that the holy spirit is gabriel, so why are you making out he is muhammad? ------------- for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16 |
Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 23 April 2006 at 4:37am
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Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem, Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Jazzak Allah Khayr Brother bmz for your time and effort in this thread. Our All-Knowing Lord has chosen when and what to reveal and he chose that the Quran be the book revealed to Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessing upon him, and that the Messenger Jesus, Issa, be given many miracles, including a blessed miracle birth. Allah The Most High is our Comforter and our Lord. Brother bmz, I have seen Islaamic positions stating that Muhammad, pbuh, was the paraclete referred to in the Bible, which they are calling the comforter. I don't want to take the time at this point in my life to begin studying the Bible again. I have chosen the Holy Quran as my guidebook and Allah, The Most High as my Comforter. ------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 23 April 2006 at 6:12am
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Fredi, From you: "bmz - so the matter of muhammad being the "comforter" is of no importance to you. that being so, where exactly is muhammad to be found in the bible? - remember he said that he was in the bible - so if he is not then he is certainly no prophet." Neither Muhammad said that he was in the Bible nor Qur'aan says that Muhammad was in the Bible. Qur'aan does not mention the term Bible at all. Qur'aan specifically names only Torah and the Injeel. The entire NT is NOT the Injeel and the entire OT is not the Torah. Well, I guess the Muslims can stop looking for Muhammad's name in the other books of the Bible, such as Isaiah, Song of Songs, Habakkuk and the like. Lots of other books have been thrown out under the cover of apocrypha. The words in the four gospels had been forged to suit the Nicene creed. If you read carefully, you will find that it was Muhammad who was to come after Jesus, not the Holy Spirit. This is nonsense, BMZ. The Gospels and other books of the New Testament were already in wide circulation by the AD200's and in many different languages, well before Nicene Creed. Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle. Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr. Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity. Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons. Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity. You know very well why the apocrypha were not considered canon. You know the criteria for inclusion in the canon. If the Holy Spirit had really come at the pentecost, it would not have taken 365 years of infighting, arguments and philosophies as to who Jesus was, by various famed scholars and priests some of whom were kicked out, to conclude a Nicean Creed. More nonsense, BMZ. Your opinion bears no weight. Sorry. We can thus say that in reality, that no Holy Spirit came as the Comforter after Jesus. The Holy Spirit according to Christian literature had already filled Jesus and had been there before him and had covered him. It had to be a new Holy Spirit this time and note the word Comforter which does not translate well at all into Holy Spirit. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 23 April 2006 at 6:13am
You do well to consider God your Comforter, since the Holy Spirit Jesus mentioned in this Gospel is God. |
Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 23 April 2006 at 7:10am
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Keeping Islam out of the equation for the moment, and as a reminder of Christian history, it might be borne in mind that the idea that the expected �Paraclete� is a supernatural entity, call it spirit, which works, not of itself, but through an individual to give him or her prophetic and authoritative utterances was apparently widespread in the early days of Christendom. Consider the case of Montanus who fancied himself the �Paraclete� and took half of 2nd Century Christianity along with him into what is now termed �Montanism.� I might be off in the percentages, but this includes, by the way, and at least at times, our friend from another thread, the pugnacious Tertullian. Also, it is interesting to note that this movement, Montanism, is at times compared to certain modern strains of evangelical fundamentalism though usually by its harsher critics. Anyway, here are the details: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10521a.htm - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10521a.htm
Servetus |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 23 April 2006 at 9:11pm
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George, From you: "More nonsense, BMZ. Your opinion bears no weight. Sorry. I have already addressed this issue. Please go back and read it."" George, all of your above message is a Cop-out. I write what I read in the Christian literature which is a few hundred thousand times more than what really Jesus spoke or taught. People in the Christian history argued, discussed, debated and quarelled on who he was for more than 350 years and you know that well. You cannot deny that. God is not like a brain mass contained in a huge glass bulb with his Spirit floating free around outside, while the brain is giving instructions. God's spirit or soul has to be within God. Period. How God communicates with people is another matter. That is via a courier. Call him Gabriel, the holy spirit. ps: I had made a mistake in quoting back, hence the editing. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 24 April 2006 at 5:28am
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BMZ, You said: We can thus say that in reality, that no Holy Spirit came as the Comforter after Jesus. The Holy Spirit according to Christian literature had already filled Jesus and had been there before him and had covered him. It had to be a new Holy Spirit this time and note the word Comforter which does not translate well at all into Holy Spirit. I think I see the problem you are having. I don't know why I didn't see it before. The Holy Spirit of God, BMZ, is omnipresent just like the Father. He can be in all places at once. Do you believe that God can be in all places at once?
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Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 24 April 2006 at 5:41am
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George, From you: "The Holy Spirit of God, BMZ, is omnipresent just like the Father. He can be in all places at once." If I were you, I would just simply say that God Almighty is omnipresent. Why is it necessary to split God's own spirit? Doesn't it make all that simple? Do you think that Jesus is omnipresent in his current state? I don't think so! Read Isaiah again and see how God pours his Spirit over the world and the people! The word Spirit here simply means Mercy, not that a Spirit is poured continuosly on people or the world. (Not exact words from the verse but the essence, just off my mind to make a point) If you read my post quoting from Moses.com, you will know the play of words by Christians which the Jews do not agree with. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 24 April 2006 at 9:06am
Please answer my question. Thanks. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 24 April 2006 at 9:31am
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To BMZ, George, From you:"When Jesus Christ spoke about the coming of the Holy Spirit he mentioned a number of very important things. Jesus Christ told his disciples that he would send the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit would come in his name (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7). The Holy Spirit's mission involves testifying on behalf of Jesus Christ and glorifying Jesus Christ (John 15:26; 16:14). Jesus Christ said the Holy Spirit would receive what belongs to Jesus and declare it to believers (John 16:13-14). " The above suggests and confirms simply the failed or the aborted mission and Jesus in above cofnrims the same. You know well that his ministry hardly lasted for one year and some say it lasted only three years. It was a failed a mission. God knew that. Jesus knew that well too. It was three years, BMZ, as you well know. You must remember the discussion that some people were saying only one year and Irenaeus pointed out that it was three years counting Jesus' visits to the Passovers in Jerusalem. Jesus' mission was neither failed nor aborted. This would make God a failure too, don't forget that. God does not fail. Had his mission been successful, he would not have said so. He did say so. John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: �Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. After Jesus had finished the verbal part of his mission, he had one more task ahead, to die on the cross. "Not my will, but your will be done." Regarding your "becasue Jesus Christ is God" series in above post, God has clearly declared in Isaiah that there in no other God and God does not give glory to anyone. God's words do not change and Isaiah stands. Jesus is no God. Do you agree with what God said in Isaiah repeatedly? Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Once again: He did say that. John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: �Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. You are right that Jesus is no God; he is the God, the Holy Word of God made flesh, the one and only God. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 25 April 2006 at 12:44am
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George, You have evaded the answer to my question in "Regarding your "becasue Jesus Christ is God" series in above post, God has clearly declared in Isaiah that there in no other God and God does not give glory to anyone. God's words do not change and Isaiah stands. Jesus is no God. Do you agree with what God said in Isaiah repeatedly? A cop-out again? God does not give His Glory to anyone. That is God's assurance. Please read Isaiah again. Are you suggesting that Jesus repudiated and abrogated Isaiah of the OT, which supports his being born to a "Virgin"?
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Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 25 April 2006 at 12:54am
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George Now I come to what you presumed and wrote: "You are right that Jesus is no God; he is the God, the Holy Word of God made flesh, the one and only God." If you believe that Jesus is the God, then there is no need to dramatise the failed and terminated short mission of Jesus by talking about God the father, God the Son, Son of man, Messiah and God the Holy Ghost. Why do you have to go through all that hassle? Just tell all the Christians to say that there is only one God and his name is Jesus. By the way, you know well the man, whom I dislike most in Christianity, never called Jesus, the God. He just called him son of God. He had always maintained a distance and difference between God and Jesus. Have you noted that? Not for once does he call Jesus a God.
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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 25 April 2006 at 7:20am
BMZ, I must remind you once again that the topic of this thread is the Comforter. Take your other arguments elsewhere, please. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 25 April 2006 at 7:21am
Please stick to the subject of the Comforter. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 25 April 2006 at 7:25am
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BMZ, I wrote: I think I see the problem you are having. I don't know why I didn't see it before. The Holy Spirit of God, BMZ, is omnipresent just like the Father. He can be in all places at once. Do you believe that God can be in all places at once? In order to understand who the Comforter is--the Holy Spirit of God--you need to answer my question above. If you do not believe that God is omnipresent, then you will not believe that the Holy Spirit of God can be omnipresent either. Please answer. You are giving me the impression that Muslims do not believe that God is omnipresent. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 25 April 2006 at 9:54am
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George, I have no problem as a Muslim or as a well-read person. You should have seen and read my cross-questions well and only then you would have understood that you have a problem to solve or explain. Before I answer your question, you must realise and understand that God's own soul or his holy spirit must remain within God. A man has a body, brain and a spirit. All the three form a man. Likewise, whatever form God has, God's Spirit must be within God. Is that dificult to comprehend? Yes, God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient but it does not make any sense in saying that since God is omnipresent, therefore God's Spirit is also omnipresent and therefore the "son" must be omnipresent. It does not work that way and leads to confusion which even the proponents of Trinity and Triunity have not been successful in explaining and finally it has to be made a matter of faith. So, when we say God is omnipresent, that settles the matter so easily that an ordinary man of any tribe or from a jungle can understand that easily. God is indivisible and there is none besides God.
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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 26 April 2006 at 7:29am
BMZ, Numbers 11: 16-17 And this is what Jesus said the Comforter would and could do. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 26 April 2006 at 8:40am
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George, From you: "Numbers 11: 16-17 Let's analyse all that in simple words: 11:16 God to Moses,"Get the 70 Israeli elders with you and stand in the communion tent". 11:17 They can't bear to hear or see God for God said in Isaiah that no one can see God so close. "When I lower my essence" means God makes himself softer so that they don't die or collapse. IT means God toned down so that they could hear and obey or follow God's words. God thus fixed up their own spirits and they were holier than before.Thus God's address shook up their souls and they became good. There is nothing here to show that Holy Spirit did the job. It was God himself. Had it been the "Holy Spirit", the address would not have been made by God.
And this is what Jesus said the Comforter would and could do. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 7:35am
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BMZ, Getting back to the Comforter, let's take each verse at a time. John 14:16-18, (16) "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever�(17) "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (18) "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." Explain how this could be Muhammad. Jesus says that his disciples know him. Did Jesus disciples know Muhammad? Jesus also says that the Comforter dwells with the disciples. How did Muhammad dwell with the disciples? What does Jesus mean when he tells his disciples, "I will come to you."?
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Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 7:50am
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George, From you: "John 14:16-18, (16) "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever�(17) "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (18) "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." Before I comment, please let me know what the other three gospel writers and Paul say about above or similar? Thanks |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 9:42am
Why? I'm not going to go through the NT and quote references to the Holy Spirit. Just answer the question. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 6:54pm
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George, It is important to know what the other three gospel writers have said about this. John appears very confused himself here in his 14:16-18. Let us look at John's statement "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever�(17) "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (18) "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." First it says that he will pray and the Father will give another Comforter, The Spirit of Truth. Then he contradicts by saying "but you know Him,. for He dwells with you and will be in you." It means that the Christian-defined "Holy Spirit" or the Comforter was already there. The statement "I will not leave you orphans" confirms the same. As to "I will come to you", he never came back. It is 2006 now. John has tried to use flowery language or discourse but it does not help. That is why I have asked you to produce the views of Mark, Matthew and Luke. When you ask such questions, you should quote from all the four gospels so that we can look at matters from a wider angle and find the writers' common ground. We cannot decide such matters by quoting from one gospel and leaving others. Please quote from all. You are allowed to quote even from the gospels that have been declared Apocrypha.I am sure all other gospel writers were aware of this.
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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 29 April 2006 at 10:20am
The quotes:
Result pages:
I did a word search on biblegateway. It picked up "Holy" in some cases. You sure are avoiding my question, BMZ. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 29 April 2006 at 8:15pm
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George, I wrote: "Let us look at John's statement "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever�(17) "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (18) "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." " Then I asked:"That is why I have asked you to produce the views of Mark, Matthew and Luke." Please quote me only, the statements from the other gospel writers regarding the above matter. I did not want to know how many places was the Holy Spirit mentioned. I will explain as many as I can, the 100 items which you quoted, in a separate post. In the mean time a shot for you and let me know how you feel about this: My daughter left for Sydney and at the airport, before I saw her off, I prayed to God Almighty for her safe journey then blew my spirit onto her. I blew my spirit, not through the nostrils but from my mouth onto her and it covered her head and shoulders. What did I really do and what do you make of that? Have you seen anyone doing that to others, anywhere? By the way, God dwells in every man or indwells every man. Hope you agree with this. You have already got my answer. I have already explained by pointing out the contradictions within John's statement, in the previous post that the Comforter could not have been the "Holy Spirit" as it had been there. God is Omnipotent, so God's own Spirit must be within God. You cannot separate either. That leaves Jesus to be understood and explained. He was sent to guide the lost sheep of Israel and bring them back to God. |
Posted By: Danty
Date Posted: 29 April 2006 at 8:44pm
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BMZSP, Jazakulakairun for your posting on this topic! I feel that Mr. George will just not get it. God is one and always will be! May Allah protect you. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said "Be kind, for whenever kindness becomes part of something, it beautifies it.Whenever it is taken from something, it leaves it tarnished." (IMAM BUKHARI) |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 29 April 2006 at 9:27pm
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George, My interpretation and comments in response for everybody's reading pleasure. Please let me know if it helped.:
I do not wish to consider Acts, Corinthians, Ephesians, etc., onwards as they are not the gospels. Hence I do not wish to comment on them. You know well I dislike Paul for hijacking what Jesus really stood for. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 29 April 2006 at 9:40pm
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Hi Danty, Salaam Alaikum. Thanks for�the compliment. May Allah grant all of us the
You may call me BMZ. SP stands for Singapore, where I live. It is a
Best Regards BMZ |
Posted By: zulqarnain
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 3:06am
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Here is an answer from Dr. Naik regarding the "Comforter"..
1. MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY: Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet. If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets. However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh): i) Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention. [Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47] ii) Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children. iii) Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158) Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh). Words in the mouth: Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim. "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." [Deuteronomy 18:18] iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36). v) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not." iv) Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18). 2. It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." 3. Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah: It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12: "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned". 4. prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament: Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16: "Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem." "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem." In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the New Testament: Al-Qur'an Chapter 61 Verse 6: "And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.' But when he came to them with clear signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!' " All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians. 1. John chapter 14 verse 16: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever." 2. Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." 3. Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7: "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you". "Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter. Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures. Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). 4. Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me". The Sprit of Truth, spoken about in this prophecy referes to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James Version. ------------- And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107) |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 5:10am
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""I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."" That is what exactly Muhammad did. Jesus, the son of Mary was not from them at all, as he was not from any man's lineage! Thanks Zulqarnain. I held back but you brought it up. Best Regards & Salaam Alaikum BMZ |
Posted By: zulqarnain
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 7:06am
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Walaikumusalaam bmz,
Thanks to our brilliant Dr. Naik. He knows what he is talking about.  ------------- And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107) |
Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 7:29am
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I feel so good that Dr. Zakir Naik is an Indian ! ------------- It is better to be alone than to be in bad company. |
Posted By: zulqarnain
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 7:41am
Well I am proud that Allah has given us Muslims such a gift  ------------- And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107) |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 7:56am
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zulqarnain,
The prophet like Moses has been dealt with in other threads. Please go take a look at them. 3. Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah: The Qur'an says that Muhammad was prophesized in the Torah. Isaiah is not in the Torah. Besides that Naik, if this is where you got your information, has taken Isaiah 29:12 out of context. Take a look: Isaiah 29:12
Isaiah 29 is a chapter announcing punishment on Israel. (3) I will encamp against you all around; I will encircle you with towers and set up my siege works against you. (4) Brought low, you will speak from the ground; your speech will mumble out of the dust. Your voice will come ghostlike from the earth; out of the dust your speech will whisper. As part of the punishment God will also take away the ability to read (understand) the holy word because they have disobeyed it for so long. In particular, verse 10 states clearly that the prophets and seers themselves will be put to sleep and no longer receive revelation from the LORD. (9) Be stunned and amazed, blind yourselves and be sightless; be drunk, but not from wine, stagger, but not from beer. (10) The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep: He has sealed your eyes, the prophets; he has covered your heads, the seers. (11) For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say to him, "Read this, please," he
will answer, "I can't; it is sealed." (12) Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say, "Read this, please," he will answer, "I don't know how to read." (13) The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.Do you think these verses refer to Muhammad? "The heart far from God, with worship that is not according to God's will but according to what men have invented" (v.13) and that his inability to read is part of God's punishment? It is a sign of God putting a deep sleep on the people regarding spiritual matters, so that regardless how knowledgeable they are, they would nevertheless be unable to read (comprehend) what the word of God means. Reading the Bible and interpreting a verse correctly involves reading it in context. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 8:01am
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zulqarnain, 4. prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament: According to Muslims Muhammad was prophesized in the Torah. The Song of Songs is not in the Torah. And, once again, this passage has been misinterpreted. It is not Muhammad. In Chapter 5 a woman is describing her beloved to her maidservants. Please read everything in context. Why would Muhammad's name crop up in her description of her lover? This book is Solomon's ancient love song. You are also incorrect about the Hebrew. If you think that Chapter 5:16, of the Song of Songs, is Muhammad, simply because in the Hebrew the word mahamaddim, "delights," "delightfulnesses," occurs there, and is derived from the same root you are mistaken. The word in Hebrew is a common, and not a proper noun (i.e. not a name), as the use of the plural here shows. The same word occurs again as a common noun in http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?Hosea+9:6,16,1-Kings+20:6,Lamentations+1:10,11,2:4,Isaiah+64:10,2-Chronicles+36:1,Ezekiel+24:16,18,21,25 - Hosea 9:6,16; 1 Kings 20:6; Lamentations 1:10,11; 2:4; Isaiah 64:10; 2 Chronicles 36:19; Ezekiel 24:16,21,25 . In the last passage (Ezekiel 24:16, "the desire of thine eyes") it is applied to a woman, Ezekiel's wife (compare verse 18), and to the sons and daughters of the idolatrous Jews (verse 25). It would be just as wise to apply the word to Muhammad here as in the Song of Songs. In Arabic many words are formed from the same root , but they do not on that account denote Muhammad. A Muslim might just as well assert that Muhammad's name occurred in Surah 1, Al Fatihah, verse 1: Al hamdo lillahi Rabbi 'lalamin ("Praise be to God, the Lord of the worlds"). In the same way a Hindu might assert that the name of Ram or some other of his deities was mentioned in the Qur'an, because in Sura 30, Ar-Rum, verse 1, we read " the Romans have been overcome," where Arabic dictionaries give "Rum" as if derived from the root "ram".
Song of Songs 5:16 shyr hshyrym 5,16 his mouth is sweets Hkw mmtqym and all of him is delights wklw mHmdym this is my love zh dwdy and this is my darling wzh r`y daughters of Jerusalem bnwt yrwshlm Song of Songs 5:16 is no more a reference to Muhammad than it is to Mumattaq or to David. Because Arabic and Hebrew share a cognate word [Hmd], there are of course several other similar occurrences in the Hebrew scriptures.The New Bantam-Megiddo Hebrew & English Dictionary lists... Hmd (yHmwd) p covet, lust after Hmd z delight, lovinessHmdh n desire, object of desire
Hmdnwt covetousness, lustfulness Sorry, it's not Muhammad as you can plainly see. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 8:04am
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I've read a lot of Dr. Naik's articles. Looks like he has copied some of Deedat's work. Naik has made many mistakes. Google: Misquotations and misinformation propagated by Zakir Naik and you will see what I mean. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 8:05am
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BMZ, When are you going to get around to answering my question? Thanks. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 9:02am
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George, I have already given the answer. Please read all my posts carefully, regarding my comments on John and my query on what other gospel writers said about the same. The answer has also been given in response to the post by Zulqarnain. The NT and the OT confirm that. The Spirit of Truth cannot be the Holy Spirit. You should be able to differentiate between the two. Muhammad was that Spirit of Truth. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 9:15am
No you haven't answered my questions. Here they are again: John 14:16-18, (16) "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever�(17) "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (18) "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." Explain how this could be Muhammad. Jesus says that his disciples know him. Did Jesus disciples know Muhammad? Jesus also says that the Comforter dwells with the disciples. How did Muhammad dwell with the disciples? The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth is God, BMZ. Now answer my questions above and we will go on to the next one. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 10:29am
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zulqarnain, You said in regard to Moses and Muhammad: iv) Are you trying to tell us that Muhammad was a King? Also, since Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world" doesn't that indicate to you that Jesus considered himself a King. It doesn't matter where the Kingdom is. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 7:36pm
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George, "John 14:16-18, (16) "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever�(17) "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (18) "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." Explain how this could be Muhammad. Jesus says that his disciples know him. Did Jesus disciples know Muhammad? Jesus also says that the Comforter dwells with the disciples. How did Muhammad dwell with the disciples? The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth is God, BMZ. Now answer my questions above and we will go on to the next one. OK, George. Here we go again. George, there are three verses in John's passage: John 14: (16) "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever." John 14:17 "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." John 14:18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." Once we split the pack of three-in-one, the "puzzle" is solved. Now you know from John 14:16 that the Comforter had to be a person. If it had to be an Spirit or The Spirit or The Spirit of Truth, Jesus would have not used the word Comforter. This is clearly pointing to another man coming after Jesus and obviously that person is only Muhammad. Jesus did not come back at all and left them orphans. That is John's problem. "for He dwells with you and will be in you" contradicts that statement. Then there would have been no need of a Comforter at all, if the Spirit of Truth dwelled in them. Muhammad is still abiding with us. Now I hope you will not ask me "When Muhammad is dead, how can he abide with you?" and I will have to say that he lives in our mind, memory and heart. But you may ask me, "How can he live in your mind?" and I will say that we cherish his memories and what he left for us. We talk about him daily, ask God Almighty to bless him many, many times every day. |
Posted By: zulqarnain
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 11:20pm
First of all this is not my answer, It was Dr Zakir Naik's. But I accept his answers because they are logical. That is why I paste them after understanding them. Now, after the conquest of Makkah, Muhammad (SAWW) was the leader of the city. Not the 'king' in the sense that he had palaces and lived on people's money. The word king' can mean a 'leader' can it not? ------------- And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107) |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:21am
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To BMZ, See my comments in red. George, "John 14:16-18, (16) "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever�(17) "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (18) "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." Explain how this could be Muhammad. Jesus says that his disciples know him. Did Jesus disciples know Muhammad? Jesus also says that the Comforter dwells with the disciples. How did Muhammad dwell with the disciples? The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth is God, BMZ. Now answer my questions above and we will go on to the next one. OK, George. Here we go again. George, there are three verses in John's passage: John 14: (16) "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever." John 14:17 "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." John 14:18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." Once we split the pack of three-in-one, the "puzzle" is solved. Now you know from John 14:16 that the Comforter had to be a person. If it had to be an Spirit or The Spirit or The Spirit of Truth, Jesus would have not used the word Comforter. Using your logic then Allah cannot be God and has to be a man because one of his names is the Comforter: http://talkislam.com/iquotes/index.php - 010 AL-JABB�R The Compeller, The Comforter, The Irresistible http://talkislam.com/iquotes/quote.php?nNewsId=20653&nCatId=280 - No, BMZ, the Comforter is not a person, unless you want to call the Holy Spirit a person, which I doubt. I would, of course, since Christians believe that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God in three "persons." Jesus clearly identifies the Comforter as the Holy Spirit. Even if it was another person, it could not have been Muhammad. Remember Jesus said that the disciples knew him. The disciples did not know Muhammad as he came along 600 years later. This is clearly pointing to another man coming after Jesus and obviously that person is only Muhammad. Jesus did not come back at all and left them orphans. God sends the Spirit of his Son into the hearts of Christian believes. Jesus did not leave us orphans, BMZ. The Scriptures are not pointing to another man, BMZ, no matter how much you want them to be. That is John's problem. BMZ, the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. You know when the disciples received that indwelling Holy Spirit. You've read the Bible, why do I have to point it all out to you? "for He dwells with you and will be in you" contradicts that statement. Then there would have been no need of a Comforter at all, if the Spirit of Truth dwelled in them. Remember the first Comforter is Jesus. When Jesus was with them the disciples did not need another Comforter. He was it. But Jesus is going away and the disciples need another Comforter. The Comforter/Holy Spirit is given to all believers in Jesus the Messiah. They knew the Holy Spirit, but this time the Holy Spirit would indwell them. Muhammad is still abiding with us. Now I hope you will not ask me "When Muhammad is dead, how can he abide with you?" and I will have to say that he lives in our mind, memory and heart. But you may ask me, "How can he live in your mind?" and I will say that we cherish his memories and what he left for us. We talk about him daily, ask God Almighty to bless him many, many times every day. Your comment is irrelevant. The subject is the Comforter/Holy Spirit and not how Muslims feel about Muhammad. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 7:50pm
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George, This is not going anywhere. Now let me ask you a question: Was the Holy Spirit dwelling in the Jews or dwelling in the hearts of the Jews or dwelling with the Jews, before the birth of Jesus or who was dwelling in their hearts? Was it the God who was dwelling or indwelling them? Do you find any difference between the words "dwelling in" or "indwelling"? A simple and straightforward answer would be higly appreciated. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 10:07am
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To BMZ, George, This is not going anywhere. Now let me ask you a question: Was the Holy Spirit dwelling in the Jews or dwelling in the hearts of the Jews or dwelling with the Jews, before the birth of Jesus or who was dwelling in their hearts? I know that there were times when God withdrew his spirit from the Jews. This verse said by David seems to indicate that God can withdraw his spirit. Psalm 51:11 "Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me." This verse would indicate that God's spirit can be withdrawn. I took the following from the Jewish Encyclopedia. It may also be taken away from the chosen one and transferred to some one else (Num. xi. 17). When the Temple was destroyed and Israel went into exile, the Holy Spirit returned to heaven; this is indicated in Eccl. xii. 7: "the spirit shall return unto God" (Eccl. R. xii. 7). When Phinehas sinned the Holy Spirit departed from him (Lev. R. xxxvii. 4; comp. Gen. R. xix. 6; Pesiḳ. 9a). Although the Holy Spirit was not continually present, and did not rest for any length of time upon any individual, yet there were cases in which it appeared and made knowledge of the past and of the future (ib.; also with reference to Akoba, Lev. R. xxi. 8; to Gamaliel II., ib. xxxvii.3. and Tosef., Pes. i. 27; to Meir, Lev. R. ix. 9; etc.) Was it the God who was dwelling or indwelling them? Do you find any difference between the words "dwelling in" or "indwelling"? Yes, God dwelling by his spirit. I don't see a difference between dwelling in or indwelling. A simple and straightforward answer would be higly appreciated. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 6:08pm
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Not really, George. Let me take some of your answers and change the language for an easy understanding: I know that there were times when God withdrew his support from the Jews. This verse said by David seems to indicate that God can withdraw his support. Psalm 51:11 "Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not abandon me." This verse would indicate that God's Support can be withdrawn. I took the following from the Jewish Encyclopedia. It may also be taken away from the chosen one and transferred to some one else (Num. xi. 17). That is understandable. It was taken away from the most famous "Chosen Ones", wasn't it? Would you agrree with me if I say, "God dwells or indwells in every believer"? The language is all figurative, George. It would suffice to say that God resides in every believer. Now, this one is also figurative. |
Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 03 May 2006 at 7:12am
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The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not an Old Testament phenomena. The Spirit fell, but did not remain. At Pentecost, the Christian believers were gathered in the upper room, 50 days after Jesus ascended into heaven. They heard the sound of a might,rushing wind, and tongues of fire appeared on their heads. They spoke with other tongues, as the Spirit gave utterance. Today, there are Christians who claim this same experience form the Holy Spirit, with the accompanying gifts of the Holy Spirit: tongues, interpretation of tongues, healing, wisdom, discernment, etc. I have personally seen these gifts manifested in the Christian assembly. I have experienced the power of healing. You might know these Christians as Pentecostals - the fastest growing sector of Christianity. Pentecostals believe that a Christian must be "baptized with the Holy Spirit." Baptized means immersed, and in this case Jesus is the baptizer - He immerses the believer in the Holy Spirit so that the believer is empowered to live the Christian life. Many Pentecostals believe that this experience is separate from salvation - a second experience. Often it is accompanied by speaking in tongues. Sometimes this is called a charismatic (giftted) experience. There is no doubt in my mind that the Holy Spirit is active in the lives of believers today - and indwells Christians in a very special way.
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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 03 May 2006 at 9:53am
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Posted By: zulqarnain
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 3:45am
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Well george, if you think Dr.Naik is mistaken, present your argument to him by pasting your answers. Try both e-mails [email protected], [email protected]. If you don't recieve prompt replies, that does not mean he hasn't got answers. ------------- And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107) |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 4:02am
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George, From you: "Nope, it is real. The Comforter/Holy Spirit leads all believers to the truth of Jesus; that he is the King Messiah; he was the means God used for our salvation; He died and rose from the dead; and lives inside all Christian believers." Nope, George. You are misinformed. That was not what Jesus taught or even hinted. Nowhere did Jesus teach that he was the King Messiah. Nowhere did Jesus teach that God used him as a salvation for his followers. That is an opinion of others, not Jesus. Question: Do you believe that Jesus really lives inside all Christian believers? If so, why not the real God Almighty live inside all the believers? Don't you consider that it is all figurative?
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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 8:12am
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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 8:20am
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I have read Naik's opinion as I have read other Muslim polemics. Naik led you astray about Isaiah 29:12 and the Song of Songs. People like him take advantage of people who do not know the Bible. Consider this: Muslims believe the Bible contains prophecies of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam. The New Testament passages that receive the most attention from Muslims are found in the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to John (14:15-17, 25-26; 15:26; 16:7-15). These passages record Jesus Christ's promise that the Holy Spirit (also known as the Advocate or Comforter) will come after him. Muslims claim that the Holy Spirit is actually the prophet Muhammad. However, there is a major problem with this Muslim claim. When Jesus Christ spoke about the coming of the Holy Spirit he mentioned a number of very important things. Jesus Christ told his disciples that he would send the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit would come in his name (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7). The Holy Spirit's mission involves testifying on behalf of Jesus Christ and glorifying Jesus Christ (John 15:26; 16:14). Jesus Christ said the Holy Spirit would receive what belongs to Jesus and declare it to believers (John 16:13-14). These truths are very important for assessing the Muslim claim that Muhammad is the promised Holy Spirit. Muslims believe that Muhammad is God's final and universal prophet. They believe that Muhammad was sent by God and came in the name of God. Islam says that Muhammad's mission involved testifying on behalf of God and bringing glory to God. The central task of Muhammad's mission, according to Islam, was to receive the word of God (the Qur'an) and declare it to the people. There is a major flaw in this Muslim claim, which I recommend Muslims consider before using this argument. The application of the promise to Muhammad implies that Jesus Christ is God, as I will demonstrate below. Muhammad denied that Jesus Christ is God, and this denial is strongly maintained in the Muslim world today. In other words, the Muslim claim that the promised Holy Spirit is Muhammad contradicts one of the major teachings of their religion. The Muslim identification of Muhammad with the Holy Spirit in John's Gospel implies the Divinity of Jesus Christ in five ways: 1. Muslims believe that Muhammad came in the name of God. If Muhammad is the Comforter then Jesus Christ is God, because the Comforter comes "in the name of Jesus Christ" (John 14:26). 2. Muslims believe that God sent Muhammad. If Muhammad is the Comforter then Jesus Christ is God, because Jesus Christ sends the Comforter (John 15:26; 16:7). 3. Muslims believe that Muhammad testified on behalf of God. If Muhammad is the Comforter then Jesus Christ is God, because the Comforter testifies on behalf of Jesus Christ (John 15:26). 4. Muslims believe that Muhammad came to bring glory to God. If Muhammad is the Comforter then Jesus Christ is God, because the Comforter comes to bring glory to Jesus Christ (John 16:14). 5. Muslims believe that Muhammad received what belongs to God and declared it to people (i.e. the word of God). If Muhammad is the Comforter then Jesus Christ is God, because the Comforter receives what belongs to Jesus Christ and declares it to believers (John 16:13-14). |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 6:44pm
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George, There is a serious flaw here because the Christians have nothingelse to quote except only John. What you present is from John, not Jesus. Qur'aan clearly says that Muhammad was foretold in the Scriptures and Muslims believe in that. The four gospels are written and narrated by men and there are many gospels that have been discarded and thrown away in the Apocrypha. Please tell us what Matthew, Mark and Luke have to offer on John's statement about the Comforter. You may also quote from other gospels which are part of Apocrypha. such as Gospel of Mary, Gospel of James, Gospel of Thomas, etc. When Jesus and other Prophets of the Jewish Bible warned about false prophets they did not mean that there would be no prophet at all. And look George, it exactly happened and came true when the Jews considered Jesus a Fasle Prophet and a False Messiah. Of course, in the case of Jesus, the signs given to the Jews were NOT there. Jesus did not match their "prophecies", hence was rejected and remains rejected by the Jews to this day. Like Jesus said in the case of the woman to be stoned,"Let him cast the first stone who has no sin." It does not mean that Jesus abolished stoning. It means stoning can be done if the stonethrowers are holy and pure themselves. So, is there anything available from the other three gospel writers or in Paul's letters?
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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 7:16am
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To BMZ, Please see my comments throughout your post. BMZ, comforter Comment: These are Jesus' words, BMZ.
The four gospels are written and narrated by men and there are many gospels that have been discarded and thrown away in the Apocrypha. Comment: Which ones do you think should have been included in the Canon? They were written way after the Apostles had died and are full of fanciful folklore. Don't you think that the Church would have included Jesus' first words as an infant and his ability to create life from clay if that they thought they were authentic words and deeds? His first words were: "Mary, I am Jesus the Son of God, that word which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the
You may also quote from other gospels which are part of Apocrypha. such as Gospel of Mary, Gospel of James, Gospel of Thomas, etc.
Comment: What makes you think that there would be a prophet after Jesus? Christians believe that Jesus was the final prophet and that none would come after him. There have been many false prophets who have come after Jesus.
Comment: Jesus' point was that there is none who are holy and pure
Comment: See below.
His divinity is established 1. from the fact that the names of God are ascribed to him (Ex. 17:7; Ps. 95:7; comp. Heb. 3:7-11); and
Jesus understood the Holy Spirit as a personality. This comes out especially in John's Gospel, where the Spirit is called the "Paraclete," i.e., the Comforter (Counselor, Advocate). Jesus himself was the first Counselor (Paraclete, John 14:16), and he will send the disciples another Counselor after he is gone, i.e., the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit (14:26; 15:26; 16:5). The Holy Spirit will dwell in the believers (John 7:38; cf. 14:17), and will guide the disciples into all truth (16:13), teaching them "all things" and bringing them "to rememberance of all that [Jesus] said" to them (14:26). The Holy Spirit will testify about Jesus, as the disciples must also testify (John 15:26-27).
The believers are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the spirit (Eph. 4:22). To each one was apportioned grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ (Eph. 4:7; cf. Rom. 12:3), and Christ has given different ones to be prophets, apostles, evangelists, pastors, and teachers (Eph. 4:11) for the edification of the body. Similarly, the Spirit gives different kinds of spiritual gifts for different kinds of service (I Cor. 12:4-5;7), all for the common good. The way of love is to be followed in all things; indeed, the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, etc. (Gal. 5:22ff.). All of this is because God has initiated the new covenant (Jer. 31:31ff.; Ezek. 36:14ff.;26) in the
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Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 8:40am
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(George) �Comment: Which ones [books] do you think should have been included in the [New Testament] Canon?� I would rather ask why it is that the �Gospel According to the Hebrews,� which was written in Aramaic (or Hebrew) and apparently at hand for St. Jerome [prepared the Vulgate] in the 4th Century, was excluded. Consider: �... The only apocryphal work which was at all generally received, and relied upon, in addition to our four canonical Gospels, is the "Gospel according to the Hebrews". It is a well-known fact that St. Jerome, speaking of this Gospel under the name of "The Gospel according to the Nazarenes", regards it as the Hebrew original of our Greek canonical Gospel according to St. Matthew � At a very early date, too, it was treated as devoid of Apostolic authority, and St. Jerome himself, who states that he had its Aramaic text at his disposal, does not assign it a place side by side with our [Greek] canonical Gospels: all the authority which he ascribes to it is derived from his persuasion that it was the original text of our First Gospel [according to St. Matthew], and not a distinct Gospel over and above the four universally received from time immemorial in the Catholic Church ..." Source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm (George) �They were written way after the Apostles had died and are full of fanciful folklore.� We only have fragments of this lost Aramaic, or Hebrew Gospel and, being the source text, it evidently predates the canonical (Greek) Gospel of Matthew. Consider: �... St. Iren�us (Adv. Haer., III, i, 2) affirms that Matthew published among the Hebrews a Gospel which he wrote in their own language � in his "Hist. eccl." (VI xxv, 3, 4), Eusebius tells us that Origen, in his first book on the Gospel of St. Matthew, states that he has learned from tradition that the First Gospel was written by Matthew, who, having composed it in Hebrew, published it for the converts from Judaism [the Ebionites?]. According to Eusebius (Hist. eccl., III, xxiv, 6), Matthew preached first to the Hebrews and, when obliged to go to other countries, gave them his Gospel written in his native tongue. St. Jerome has repeatedly declared that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew ("Ad Damasum", xx; "Ad Hedib.", iv), but says that it is not known with certainty who translated it into Greek � St. Jerome uses Matthew's Hebrew text several times to solve difficulties of interpretation, which proves that he had it at hand � Pant�nus also had it, as, according to St. Jerome ("De Viris Ill.", xxxvi), he brought it back to Alexandria. However, the testimony of Pant�nus is only second-hand, and that of Jerome remains rather ambiguous, since in neither case is it positively known that the writer did not mistake the Gospel according to the Hebrews (written of course in Hebrew) for the Hebrew Gospel of St. Matthew. However all ecclesiastical writers assert that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew, and, by quoting the Greek Gospel and ascribing it to Matthew, thereby affirm [as a matter of �faith,� apparently] it to be a translation of the Hebrew Gospel ...� Source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10057a.htm - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10057a.htm Servetus |
Posted By: zulqarnain
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 8:41am
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Well george, I thank bmz in getting the hang of you, bcauz I don't have time any more. I've got AS level exams comming up. But let me make one thing clear. There are no doubt some misconceptions among the Muslims regarding some topics. So i suggest you to see the authnetic sources.
Secondly, if you take people like Ali Sina seriously..  , I can't express this in suitable words, such people are condemned in the Quraan, such LIERS, such BLAMERS, such pieces of ...------------- And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107) |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 9:22am
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I think you better go and work hard on your exams. I have been trying to educate George for over three and a half years and he is still asking the same questions. Even if you come back after exams, you will find this topic alive. My best wishes and good luck. Study hard. Salaams to all at home. Good Night from Singapore BMZ |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 10:33am
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I think I may have read one thing written by Ali Sina. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 10:35am
BMZ, you have never aced me on this subject or any other subject. Muhammad is not the Holy Spirit/Comforter. You side step and talk about everything else under the sun in order not to admit that these Comforter passages have nothing to do with a human being. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 8:51pm
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George, I am not here to ace you or anyone. I am here to prove that you have problems and misconceptions in the NT and that you have been ill-informed. My job is to point out the mistakes in the Christian scriptures and your job is to refute and find the truth. Now, read this: "Test the Spirits" 1 John 4:1,"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out in the world." I am aware that you do NOT have anything from the other three gospel writers on the Comforter issue and you have only John. However, in above, John clearly calls the prophets, whether true or false as spirits. This also confirms that the spirits are human prophets. Why did it take John so long to say this after writing his version of the gospel? Thus in his own words here, John is confirming that it was a human prophet (spirit) that was supposed to come after Jesus and people were to test him. Jesus himself was a human Comforter sent to the Jews. This time, it was the turn of a new human Comforter Muhammad. Very Important Note: The Holy Spirit, as described in Christianity, does not speak like a human. There is no record in the Bible that the Holy Spirit ever spoke a word. I am sure you are with me on this serious issue!
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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 06 May 2006 at 7:24am
Hebrews is Matthew. Even the Papists conceded in the early part of the 20th century that Hebrews was just a slightly altered essentially identical Aramaic copy of Matthew. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 06 May 2006 at 7:34am
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BMZ: Please see my comments in red: George, I am not here to ace you or anyone. I am here to prove that you have problems and misconceptions in the NT and that you have been ill-informed. My job is to point out the mistakes in the Christian scriptures and your job is to refute and find the truth. Sorry, BMZ, but it is you have problems in understanding the New Testament. It is you who have been ill-informed. Your job is not to point out what you consider "mistakes in the Christian scriptures." It is you job to ask Christians to explain their Scriptures. Need I point out to you that you said that Jesus called Muhammad the "prince of this world?" You lack the knowledge which you need in order to interpret Christian Scriptures. You are not qualified. I ask questions regarding the verses in the Qur'an; you make inaccurate assumptions in regard to the Christian Scriptures. You look at them through the lens of a Muslim and try to make them Islamic when they are not. Now, read this: "Test the Spirits" 1 John 4:1,"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out in the world." I am aware that you do NOT have anything from the other three gospel writers on the Comforter issue and you have only John. Then you have demonstrated once again your lack of ability in understanding what is being said to you by me and by the Scriptures. However, in above, John clearly calls the prophets, whether true or false as spirits. This also confirms that the spirits are human prophets. Why did it take John so long to say this after writing his version of the gospel? See 1 John 4 below in context. Thus in his own words here, John is confirming that it was a human prophet (spirit) that was supposed to come after Jesus and people were to test him. Not in the least. Jesus himself was a human Comforter sent to the Jews. This time, it was the turn of a new human Comforter Muhammad. Nope. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit of God; it is not Muhammad. You must look somewhere else to find Muhammad. Very Important Note: The Holy Spirit, as described in Christianity, does not speak like a human. There is no record in the Bible that the Holy Spirit ever spoke a word. I am sure you are with me on this serious issue! Nope. And once again, you have demonstrated that you do not understand what you read. You can find the Holy Spirit speaking in the Hebrew Scriptures. See John 4 in context with my comments inserted into the text and my highlighting. John 4: 1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: (The Comforter) Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
(Do you know what the word "propitiation" means?)
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. Would you like me to give you some sites to help you understand what the verses in the Bible are saying? |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 06 May 2006 at 7:39am
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BMZ, I think if you take the following into consideration you will realize that the Comforter, Advocate, Helper is not Muhammad. If we apply sound exegesis to John 14.16-17 we shall discover no less than eight reasons why the Comforter cannot possibly be Muhammad. 1. "He will give YOU another Comforter". Jesus promised his disciples that God would send the Comforter to them. He would send the Spirit of Truth to Peter, and to John, and to the rest of the disciples - not to Meccans. Medinans or Arabians. 2. "He will give you ANOTHER Comforter". If, as Muslims allege, the original word was periklutos and that Christians changed it into paracletos, then the sentence would have read, "He will give you another praised one". This statement is both out of place in its context and devoid of support elsewhere in the Bible. Jesus is never called the "periklutos" in the Bible (the word appears nowhere in the Bible) so it is grossly unlikely that he would have said "He will give you another praised one" when he never used that title for himself. Worse still, as the Muslims allege that he actually foretold the coming of Muhammad by mentioning his name, the sentence in that case would have read "He will give you another Muhammad". John 16.12-13 makes it clear that the word "paracletos" is obviously the correct one. The text reads: "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth". In other words, I have been your Comforter, your paracletos, and have many things to tell you, but I send the Spirit of Truth to you, another Comforter, another paracletos. In 1 John 2.1 we read that Christians have an "advocate" with the Father, "Jesus Christ the Righteous", and the word translated "advocate" is paracletos in the Greek. So Jesus is our paracletos, our Comforter and advocate with the Father, and he promised to give his disciples another Comforter. It is therefore logical to find that Jesus promised another paracletos when he himself was described as the paracletos of his followers, but it is illogical to suggest that he would speak of "another periklutos" when the word was never used to describe him in the first place. 3. "To be with you FOREVER". When Muhammad came he did not stay with his people forever but died in 632 AD and his tomb is in Medina where his body has lain for over 1300 years. Nevertheless Jesus said that the Comforter, once he had come, would never leave his disciples, but would be with them forever. 4. "The Spirit of Truth whom the world CANNOT receive". The Qur'an says that Muhammad came as a universal messenger to men (Surah 34.28). If so, Jesus was not referring to Muhammad for he said that the world cannot receive the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth. 5. "You KNOW him". It is quite obvious from this statement that the disciples knew the Spirit of Truth. As Muhammad was only born more than five hundred years later, it certainly could not be him. The next clause brings out just how the disciples knew him. At this stage we can see quite clearly that the Comforter is a spirit who was in the disciples' presence already. 6. "He dwells WITH you". Where did the Comforter dwell with them? From various verses, especially John 1.32, we can see that the Spirit was in Jesus himself and so was with the disciples. 7. "He will be IN you". Here the death-blow is dealt to the theory that Muhammad is the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth. As the Spirit was in Jesus, so he would be in the disciples as well. The Greek word here is "en" and this means "right inside". So Jesus was in fact saying "he will be right inside you". 8. The last reason is really a re-emphasis of the first one. Do you notice how often Jesus addresses his own disciples when he speaks of the sphere of influence of the Comforter? "You know him ... he dwells with you ... he will be in you". Quite clearly the disciples were to anticipate the coming of the Comforter as a spirit who would come to them just after Jesus had left them. No other interpretation can possibly be drawn from this text. Only wishful thinking makes the Muslims allege that Muhammad was foretold by Jesus, but a practical interpretation of the texts destroys this possibility. Let us read how the Spirit came to Jesus: "The Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove" (Luke 3.22). We read that the Spirit, the Comforter, came to the disciples in a similar way just after the ascension of Jesus (as Jesus told them he would): "And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2.3-4). He was with the disciples in the person of Jesus while he was still with them, and he was in the disciples from the day of Pentecost. We thus see the prediction Jesus made in John 14.17 duly fulfilled in the coming of the Holy Spirit. Within only ten days after the ascension of Jesus, the disciples duly received the Comforter as he was promised to them by Jesus. He had told them to wait in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, should come (Acts 1.4-8) as indeed he did while they were all together praying for his advent in the city. Muhammad is right out of this picture. Moving on now to John 16.7 (quoted earlier), the whole meaning of this verse also becomes clear from the statement of Jesus, "I have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now" (John 16.12). Jesus also said: "It is to your advantage that I go away" (John 16.7). The disciples could not bear his teaching now because they were ordinary men devoid of power to comprehend or apply what he said. The Spirit of Truth was indeed in Jesus, but was not yet in his disciples, so they were unable to follow the spiritual elements in his teaching. But after the ascension they received the Spirit and could now communicate and understand his teaching because the Spirit of Truth was in them as well. That is why Jesus said "it is to your advantage that I go away". This is made equally clear elsewhere in the Bible: What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him, God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. 1 Corinthians 2.9-13. Paul makes it plain that the Spirit had already been given and if it had not, it could not have been to any advantage to the disciples to be without Jesus once he had ascended to heaven. So it is abundantly proved that Muhammad is not the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, whose coming Jesus foretold. Who is the Comforter then? He is the very Spirit of the living God as can be seen from some of the quotations already given. On the day when the Comforter duly came upon the disciples, his coming was accompanied by a tremendous sound, "like the rush of a mighty wind" (Acts 2.2). When the Jews heard this, they rushed together to see what was happening. Peter declared to them all: "This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh' ". Acts 2.16-17. The Comforter, the Spirit of God, had come down on the disciples as Jesus had promised and was to be given to believing Christian men and women from every nation under the sun. But notice how Peter linked the coming of the Spirit with the ascension of Christ: "This Jesus God raised up and of that we are all witnesses. Being therefore exacted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear". Acts 2.32-33. Clearly the coming of the Comforter was inseparably linked to the risen, ascended glory of Jesus in the highest place that heaven affords. The Comforter is also called "the Spirit of Christ" (Romans 8. 9) and the reason is plain from what Jesus said: 1. "He will glorify me" (John 16.14). 2. "He will bear witness to me" (John 15.26). 3. "He will convince the world concerning sin because they do not believe in me" (John 16. 8-9). 4. "He will take what is mine and declare it to you" (John 16.14). 5. "He will bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you" (John 14.26). Quite obviously the great work of the Comforter is to bring people to Jesus, to make them see him as Saviour and Lord, and to draw them to him. The Comforter was given so that the glory of Jesus might be revealed to men and in men. A beautiful example of this is given by the Apostle John: His disciples did not understand this at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that this had been written of him and done to him. John 12.16 Without the Spirit, they had no understanding, but when they received the Spirit after Jesus was glorified, then they remembered as Jesus said they would. John illustrates this in this passage as well: On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, 'If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water'. Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7.37-39. As soon as Jesus was glorified the Spirit was given so that the glory of Jesus in heaven might become real to men here on earth. As Peter said (Acts 2.33), once Jesus was exalted at the right hand of God, the Spirit was freely given to his disciples. Again Peter said, "The God of our fathers glorified Jesus" (Acts 3.13). We cannot see or comprehend this glory of Jesus here on earth (and Jesus himself said, "I do not receive glory from men" John 5.41), but he sent the Spirit so that we might behold this glory by the eye of faith. As Jesus himself said to his disciples of the Spirit: "He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine, therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you". John 16.14-15. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and he is given to all true believers so that the glory of Jesus in heaven may become real to men on earth. John makes it plain how a man receives the Holy Spirit: Now this he spoke about the Spirit, which those who BELIEVED in him were to receive. John 7.39 To receive the Comforter, the Spirit of God, one must believe in Jesus and surrender body and soul to him. Without the Spirit no one sees or believes in the glory of Christ, but for those who are his true followers and who are sanctified by the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1.2), Peter says: Without having seen him, you love him, though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with unutterable and exalted joy. As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1.8-9. The distinction between those who have received the Spirit and those who have not, those who have beheld the glory of Christ and those who have not, comes out very clearly as Peter continues to speak to his fellow-believers: To you therefore who believe, he is precious, but for those who do not believe, 'The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner'. 1 Peter 2.7 The Bible says much about the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, but the great and most handsome work of the Spirit is summed up in Jesus' words: "HE WILL GLORIFY ME". John 16.14 Although the Spirit had been at work in the world before the advent of Jesus Christ, and had indeed filled many of the great prophets and men of old with a longing for the coming Christ, he only finally united himself to men, and men to God, and indeed true believers to one another after the resurrection and ascension of Christ to heaven. Jesus Christ spoke to his OWN disciples of the coming of the Comforter because the Spirit was sent down to comfort and regenerate all true believers in Jesus. This is one of the most significant and consistent elements of the teaching of Jesus about the Comforter. The prime purpose of the coming of the Comforter - immediately after the ascension of Jesus - was to draw men to him so that those who are influenced by the work of the Comforter will therefore become followers of Jesus. It is further evidence against the theory that Muhammad was the Comforter for, whereas the Comforter would not speak of himself but only of Jesus, Muhammad drew attention away from Jesus to himself, describing himself as the ultimate apostle of God to be followed and obeyed. The Comforter was never to do a thing like this. Jesus made it plain that the Comforter would draw the attention and faith of all men to himself and would glorify him before the eyes of faith of true believers as the Lord of glory in heaven. After Jesus Christ had ascended to heaven to be glorified at the right hand of God above all the angels and departed saints, the Comforter came immediately upon his disciples to make this glory real to them and through them to spread it all over the world. For Jesus Christ is the very image of the Father's glory. In him are all things united, whether in heaven or on earth. He is the climax of God's plan for the fulness of time. He is the beginning and the end of all God's gracious work in all ages - for all the salvation and glory that God has prepared for those who love him are vested in Jesus. The Comforter came to give us a foretaste of this glory. He came to make the resplendent glory of Jesus real to those who follow him. As Moses encouraged his people to look forward to the prophet who would be like him, who would mediate a new covenant to save all who truly believe, so the Comforter encourages Christ's followers in this age to look up to the risen, ascended, Lord Jesus Christ who sits on the throne of God in eternal glory above the heavens. Far from Muhammad being foretold in the Bible, every prophecy, every agent of God, every true prophet and spirit, looks upward towards the radiance of the Father's glory, the one who sits upon the throne, the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ ascended to heaven - God took him to himself. For Jesus alone is the Redeemer of the world. He alone is able, as a man, to enter the holy presence of the Father's throne and fill it with his own glorious majesty. So likewise he is able to reconcile sinful men to God and will one day be seen again in all his splendour as he comes to call his own - those who eagerly awaited his coming before his time and all those who since his sojourn on this earth look forward to his return from heaven - to be with him where he is to behold with awe the glory which the Father gave him in his love for him before the foundation of the world. Moses rejoiced to see his day when speaking of the prophet to come. The Comforter today still rejoices to reveal his glory and majesty to those in whom he dwells. The angels and departed saints await with longing for the day when he shall be revealed to all the universe in all his magnificence - when all men shall be raised from the dead to see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, a day when the Comforter's work will be finally completed, a day when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that it is Jesus Christ who is Lord - to the everlasting glory of God the Father. BMZ, you must look at this full explanation from an intellectual aspect and not an emotional one. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 06 May 2006 at 9:02am
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George, From you: "His disciples did not understand this at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that this had been written of him and done to him. John 12.16" I consider this to be the most important part of your entire long posts. What kind of disciples were they who could not understand him? Let me say that it was only after John and others wrote on what Jesus was! Regarding "in me", "in him", "of him" "thirsty" etc, I will do a write up later. It is all a wizardry of words which were crafted for the simple Gentiles who were the Ummis! Ummis also means people who had never received God's messages or books and were therefore considered Ummis (illiterates) in the sight of God. Think hard here. Good Night from my side. |
Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 06 May 2006 at 10:02am
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George, �Hebrews is Matthew.� Have I correctly understood? Are you suggesting that the canonical book of Hebrews is the long-lost Gospel According to the Hebrews? �Even the Papists conceded in the early part of the 20th century that Hebrews was just a slightly altered essentially identical Aramaic copy of Matthew.� Not meaning to quibble, but, at this point, I would not consider St. Jerome�s De Viris Illustribus a 20th Century papist �concession� to this or any other point. Furthermore, if the quote was intended to support your claim, as I read it, there is no suggestion that the canonical book of Hebrews, or Epistle to the Hebrews, is the original Aramaic Gospel that St. Matthew wrote. This is a new one to me. �Your proof text states that the Gospel of Matthew is a Greek translation the Aramaic Gospel of the Hebrews. So what? What is the complaint?� I thought we agreed to be cordial? You seem rather abrupt and grumpy. I don�t have a proof text and I never expect to get one. I have already said, in answer to your initial question, that I would simply like to know why it is that the original Gospel According to the Hebrews was excluded from the New Testament canon. The question is something of a historical mystery and you need not feel obligated to (try to ) answer it. �Technically the Gospel of the Hebrews is in the canon.� One might add, if I have correctly understood your point thus far, �in a slightly [sic] altered, Greek translated form.� �It seemed to possess a strong Egyptian influence which made it's origin suspect and at the same time was considered orthodox but just an Aramaic version of the Latin and Greek Matthew. So it wasn�t canonized.� Thanks. At this point, and unless and until you provide a source for your statement, I stay with this, from the Catholic encyclopedia, posted above: �Let us now recall the testimony of the other [earliest] ecclesiastical writers on the Gospel of St. Matthew. St. Iren�us � affirms that Matthew published among the Hebrews a Gospel which he wrote in their own language.� I read nothing of a suspicious �Egyptian� source. �It does possess some odd things.� Well, there you are. We only have fragments. And, curiously enough, these �odd things� seem to show up neither in our (canonical) Epistle to the Hebrews nor in our (canonical) Gospel According to St. Matthew. Perhaps now you will understand why I am reluctant to accept, prima facie, on �faith� or even upon mere mortal authority the statement that �technically the Gospel of the Hebrews is in the canon.� Evidently, parts of it, the so-called �odd bits,� are not. �At one point Gospel of the Hebrews seemingly refers to Mary as the Holy Spirit.� We, Fredi and I especially, were discussing this very point in Melco�s thread �Is Islam True.� Origen�s quote from his Commentary on the Gospel According to St. John was brought forward. Servetus |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 06 May 2006 at 10:49am
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First of all, I would like to say "hello" to Servetus. Nice to see you're still alive and kickin'!!! Good post you supplied too. Since the title of this topic is "Who is the Comforter", I will answer briefly what I have been taught and what I believe to be correct. Others may disagree with me, and that's fine. I take no offense to opposing views. We all are free to believe what we feel is the Truth. So, this is what I believe to be the Comforter: The descent of the Holy Spirit was not an unexpected event for the Apostles. As far back as a few centuries before the Savior's birth God began to prepare people for the day of their spiritual rebirth. He promised through his prophets: "It shall come to pass afterward, that I shall pour out My Spirit on all flesh ... With joy you will draw water from the well of salvation ... For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground ... A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone, and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and observe and carry out My judgements" (Joel 2: 28; Is. 12: 3, 44:3; Ezek. 11:19-20). When preparing to return to His heavenly Father, the Lord Jesus Christ in His farewell talk informed the Apostles about the forthcoming descent of the Holy Spirit. He explained to the disciples that the Comforter, that is, the Holy Spirit, would come soon to them to fulfill the mission of salvation: "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, to be with you forever, the Spirit of Truth ... He will teach you everything and remind you of everything that I say unto you ... He, the Spirit of Truth, which proceeds from the Father, will bear witness of Me" (John 14: 16-17, 26; 15: 26). Based on these verses from the Holy Scriptures, I hold the belief that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, sent to us from God on the Day of Pentecost. And God speaks to us and guides us through the power of the Holy Spirit. Of course, to believe this doctrine, one must also embrace and believe in the Trinity....which is a mystery and comes to us only through faith. God's Peace Always, Patty
------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 06 May 2006 at 11:16am
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�First of all, I would like to say "hello" to Servetus.� Hello in return, Patty, You beat me to it. We were just online together but I had to sign-off just before I could send you this, a silly little smiley face that, in a very strange sense, actually sometimes looks quite a bit like me: Servie |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 06 May 2006 at 11:41am
I agree with you, Patty. I also think that if the Muslims need to believe that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, then they are free to do so. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 06 May 2006 at 11:45am
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Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 06 May 2006 at 12:44pm
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Servetus said: " I had to sign-off just before I could send you this, a silly little smiley face that, in a very strange sense, actually sometimes looks quite a bit like me:
------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
"
Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 18 May 2006 at 10:26am
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------ Answer: Part of Prophet Jesus� message was to inform his followers of the prophet who would come after him. As John the Baptist heralded the coming of Jesus Christ, Jesus in turn heralded the coming of the last of the prophets of God, Muhammad. In the Qur�aan, Chapter as-Saff (61):6, God quotes Jesus� prophesy about the Prophet Muhammad. } وَإِذْ قَالَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائ 16;يلَ إِنِي رَسُولُ اللهِ إِلَيْكُ 05;ْ مُصَدِّق 11;ا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيَّ مِنَ التَّوْر 75;ةِ وَمُبَشّ 16;رًا بِرَسُول 13; يَأْتِي مِنْ بَعْدِي اسْمُهُ أَحْمَدُ .. { �(Remember) when Jesus, son of Mary, said, �O Children of Israel, I am the Messenger of Allaah sent to you, confirming the Torah before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger coming after me, whose name will be Ahmad.� There are also some references in the Gospels which seem to refer to the coming of Prophet Muhammad�may God�s peace and blessings be on all the prophets. In the Gospel according to John 14:16, Jesus is quoted as saying, �And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever.� Note:The Greek word paraclete is translated as �Comforter� in the King James Version, and as �Advocate� and �Helper� in other translations. Parakletos means one who pleads the cause of another, one who counsels or advises another from deep concern for the other�s welfare. (Beacon Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 168). Christian laymen usually interpret the �Counselor� mentioned in John 14:16 as the Holy Spirit. Note: See John 14:26, �But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things...� However, in 1st John 4:1, the term �Spirit� is used to refer to a prophet, �Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.� However, the phrase �another Counselor� implies that it will be someone else like Jesus and not the Holy Spirit, especially considering John 16:7, in which Jesus is reported to have said, �Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.� The term �Counselor� could not be referring to the Holy Spirit here, because�according to the Gospels�the Holy Spirit was already present in the world prior to Jesus� birth, as well as during his ministry.Note:The Holy Spirit was on Simeon (Luke 2:26) and it descended in the shape of a dove on Jesus (Luke 3:22). This verse implies that the �Counselor� had not already come. Jesus� declaration that the prophet-counselor �will be with you forever,� could be interpreted to mean that there would be no need for additional prophets to succeed this Counselor. He would be the last of the Prophets of God, whose message would be preserved until the end of the world. (Source: Jesus, A Prophet of Islam, p. 13.) Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) (Salallahu �alayhi wa salam, meaning: May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was All�h's great Prophet and Messenger like Jesus, the Son of Mary. The Prophet's mission, however, is universal. Allah (S.W.T.) (Subhanahu wa ta�ala, meaning: the Exalted, Most Glorious) tells mankind that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) is no more than a Messenger (Qur�an 3: 144), the unlettered Prophet who believes in Him and His Words (Qur�an 7: 158). He is the Seal of the Prophets and the true universal Messenger of All�h to the whole mankind (Qur�an 33: 40). Allah (S.W.T.), the All-Mighty, makes this very clear: "We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but as a universal (Messenger) to men giving them glad tidings and warning them (against sin) but most men understand not." (Qur�n 34: 28) The Messenger (s.a.w.s.) possesses an exalted (standard of) character (Qur�an 68:4) and an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah (S.W.T.) and the Final Day, and who remembers Allah (S.W.T.) much (Qur�an 33: 21). Allah (S.W.T.) endowed him with exalted standard of character for us to follow. Every aspect of his life has been fully dealt with, providing complete guidance to the whole mankind. For our guidance, Allah (S.W.T.), the All-Mighty commands us to believe and obey His Messenger (s.a.w.s.): "Say (O Muhammad to mankind): �If you (really) love All�h then follow me (i.e. accept Isl�mic Monotheism, follow the Qur��n and the Sunnah), All�h will love you and forgive you your sins. And All�h is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.� Say (O Muhammad): �Obey All�h and the Messenger (Muhammad).� But if they turn away, then All�h does not like the disbelievers." (Qur�an 3: 31) "O mankind! Verily, there has come to you the Messenger (Muhammad) with the truth from your Rabb (Sustainer). So believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then certainly to All�h belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. And All�h is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise." (Qur�n 4: 170) "O you who believe! Obey All�h, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds." (Qur�n 47: 33) It is a must that we obey Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.). Allah (S.W.T.) tells us that he who obeys His Messenger (s.a.w.s.) obeys Him: "He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad) has indeed obeyed All�h, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (Muhammad) as a watcher over them." (Qur�n 4: 80). Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) being the True Messenger of Allah (S.W.T.) not only sincerely believes and testifies to the Oneness of All�h, the Only True God, Who Alone deserves all praises and true worship, but also teaches the same universal message. In one of his teachings we learn how he teaches us to glorify and testify Allah (S.W.T.) as True. ------------- God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8) |
Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 18 May 2006 at 11:17am
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Nice cutting and pasting - real intellectual response: Here's some more cutting and pasting; we could do this all day: Muslims claim: "MUHAMMED IS THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH."
The Mullahs claim that the word "prophet" as used of Muhammed, is the same as "Spirit" in John 16, so Muhammed is the Comforter. Of course, this is patently absurd since the two words are NOT the same in the Greek, which was the language Jesus was speaking. "Spirit" is PNEUMA. "Prophet" is PROPHETES-- No similarity at all in Bible usage. ANSWER: I John 4:1, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. The prophet Muhammed did confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, but there are two more tests of a prophet in the same context: I John 4:15, Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. ***EDITED*** John also gives one more test of the alleged prophet Muhammed: I John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? ***EDITED*** |
Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 18 May 2006 at 12:19pm
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Hey Alibaba...You make so many slanders against Islam, Muhammad and Allah so I will refute your ***EDITED*** statements one by one soon! ------------- God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8) |
Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 18 May 2006 at 3:35pm
| Oh I see they edited Abrah's post. I wonder why - he has such a marvelous insight into things. Well, tea time tots - I'll pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance for you. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 2:01am
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Ali Baba, Questiona time, again. From you: "I'll pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance for you." Is it the same Holy Spirit that went to or was sent to the Jews earlier? |