Who is the Holy Spirit?
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Topic: Who is the Holy Spirit?
Posted By: George
Subject: Who is the Holy Spirit?
Date Posted: 24 April 2006 at 10:32am
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Who is the Holy Spirit? I would like to present my topic is steps. First looking at the Muslim view and then moving on to the Jewish and Christian view. The first step/question: "according to the Koran and Hadiths, who is the Holy Spirit?" My Muslim friends tell me that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit. I believe that there is a distinction made between Gabriel and the Holy Spirit in the Koran and the Hadiths. This is what I have found:
"Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: �I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud molded into shape; When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.�" S. 15:28-29 "He Who created all things in the best, and He began the creation of man from clay, And made his progeny from a quintessence of despised fluid: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him of His Spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and understanding: little thanks do ye give!" S. 32:7-9 "Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: �I am about to create man from clay: When I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.�" S. 38:71-72 These passages indicate that after fashioning man God presumably gave him life by breathing his Spirit into him, echoing Genesis 2:7. This implies that at least in these contexts the Spirit is God�s life-giving Agent. This being the case, how can the Spirit be Gabriel without this implying that God used a finite creature to assist him in the creation of man? "And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples." 21:91 "And Mary the daughter of �mr�n, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into it of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)." S. 66:12 God�s Spirit appeared to Mary in the form of a man: "And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man." S. 19:17 These passages indicate that the Spirit is not a force but a divine personality. The context of this last passage shows that the Spirit which visibly appeared is actually the very same Spirit referred to in 21:91 and 66:12: "She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent Allah, if you are one guarding (against evil). He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I WILL GIVE YOU a pure boy." S. 19:18-19 Shakir The Spirit says that he has come to GIVE Mary a son, implying that this is the one whom Allah breathed into Mary in order to create Jesus. Yet according to certain Muslim commentators this Spirit who both appeared to Mary and was breathed into her was Gabriel. Ibn Kathir comments on S. 66:12, noting that Jibril is the Arabic pronunciation of Gabriel: <And Maryam, the daughter of 'Imran who guarded her chastity (PRIVATE PART).> meaning who protected and purified her honor, by being chaste and free of immorality, <And We breathed INTO IT (PRIVATE PART) through Our Ruh,> meaning, THROUGH THE ANGEL JIBRIL. Allah sent the angel Jibril to Maryam, and he came to her in the shape of a man in every respect. Allah commanded HIM TO BLOW INTO A GAP OF HER GARMENT and that BREATH into her womb through her private part; THIS IS HOW �ISA WAS CONCEIVED. This is why Allah said here, <And We breathed INTO IT through Our Ruh, and she testified to the truth of her Lords Kalimat, and His Kutub,> meaning His decree and His legislation. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Abridged, Volume 10, Surat At-Tagabun to the end of the Qur'an, abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Houston, New York, London, Lahore; September 2000], pp. 75-76;) Al-Tabari�s comments on Mary�s conception are: "... She entered the cave, and found Gabriel there�God made him appear to her as shapely human�and he said to her, �O Mary, God has sent me to you to give you a boy most pure.� At this she exclaimed, �I take refuge in the All Merciful from you, if you fear God!� (She had thought that he was a man, a mortal.) But he said, �I am but a messenger come from your Lord.� She then said, �How shall I, whom no mortal has touched, have a son; neither have I been unchaste?� He replied, �Even so. The Lord has said, "Easy is that for Me, and We may appoint him a sign unto men and a mercy from Us; it is a thing decreed."� That is, God has decreed that it is so. When the angel spoke thus, she submitted to the divine decree, and he breathed into HER BOSOM. Then he left her, and she filled her pitcher. According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. �Askar al-Bukhari- Isma�il b. �Abd al-Karim- �Abd al-Samad b. Ma�qil, the son of the brother of Wahb- Wahb: When God sent Gabriel to Mary, he appeared to her as a shapely man. She then said, �I take refuge in the All Merciful from you, if you fear God!� Then he breathed into the opening of her garment, THE BREATH REACHED HER WOMB, and she conceived Jesus..." (The History of al-Tabari, Volume IV, The Ancient Kingdoms, trans. Moshe Perlmann [State University of New York Press, Albany, 1987], pp. 112-113;) And: "� �Then We sent unto her Our Spirit [that is, the angel Gabriel] that presented himself to her a man without fault�... She wore a gown. He held her sleeves and breathed into the opening of her garment which was split in front. The breath entered her breast, and she conceived ..." (Ibid., p. 119;) The claim that Gabriel breathed into Mary would logically make Gabriel the speaker in S. 21:91 and 66:12. According to these passages the One speaking states that he will breathe his Spirit into Mary. Nowhere do the passages even hint to someone else being used to impregnate Mary. Seeing that Muslims claim that the Koran is the word of Allah, implying that Allah is the One speaking here, logically makes Gabriel Allah! This also means that Gabriel has a Spirit that he uses to create and impart life. This would therefore make Gabriel the Creator, since Muslims claim that Allah was the one who created Jesus by breathing his Spirit into Mary�s womb. Otherwise the text would imply that Allah actually breathed Gabriel into both Mary and Adam since, as Muslims claim, the Spirit of Allah is actually Gabriel.
Furthermore, seeing that Muslims do not equate Gabriel with Allah inevitably leads to more than one Creator. Yet the Koran clearly states that there is no other Creator besides Allah: "It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to Allah their Lord, (saying): �If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful.� But when He giveth them a goodly child, they ascribe to others a share in the gift they have received: but Allah is exalted high above the partners they ascribe to Him. Do they indeed ascribe to Him as partners things that can create nothing, but are themselves created?" S. 7:189-191 "O men! Remember the grace of Allah unto you! Is there a Creator, other than Allah, to give you sustenance from heaven or earth? There is no god but He: how then are ye perverted?" S. 35:3 "He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate; and He sent down for you eight head of cattle in pairs: He creates you, in the wombs of your mothers, in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness. Such is Allah, your Lord and Cherisher: to Him belongs (all) dominion. There is no god but He: then how are ye turned away (from your true Lord)?" S. 39:6 Therefore, the only plausible explanation is that the Spirit of Allah is not the angel Gabriel. Another verse supplying additional proof that the Spirit is not Gabriel is the following: "Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity." S. 58:22 Y. Ali Believers are strengthened by a spirit from Himself, i.e. a spirit from God. In order for the Spirit to be able to strengthen believers everywhere implies that the Spirit is omnipresent. Yet only God is omnipresent which essentially means that the Spirit is God. This is precisely the conclusion that one Muslim scholar comes to. In his footnote, A. Yusuf Ali states: "Cf. ii 87 and 253, where it is said that God strengthened the Prophet Jesus with the holy spirit. Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, �a spirit from Himself�. Whenever any one offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that faith on the seeker's heart, and further fortifies him with the Divine Spirit, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature of God." (Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Quran, p. 1518, f. 5365) Yusuf Ali isn't alone. Shia writer Irshaad Hussain, in his The Soul: Between Spirit and Clay, says in regards to God's Spirit which was breathed into Adam: The Spirit, which derives from God, IS A REALITY THAT POSSESSES ALL THE DIVINE ATTRIBUTES. IT REPRESENTS A DIRECT MANIFESTATION OF GOD. Remember, it is only after this Spirit is breathed into Adam that God orders the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam. It is only after this receiving of the Spirit that Adam is given knowledge of the names of all things. The Spirit then MANIFESTS in some way THE ATTRIBUTES OR NAMES OF GOD. It is luminous, alive, subtle, unseen, knowing, unified etc. The body on the other hand has many parts and is overcome by darkness, ignorance, inanimate matter, and a lack of divine attributes. So spirit and body have no common measure - One is from God who is Unique, who is One. The other is from the material world which is characterized by multiplicity and dispersion. Source: http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/beliefs/the-soul-betwe en-spirit-and-clay/the-soul-between-spirit-and-clay.htm We see that the Spirit is of the divine essence, incomprehensible, omnipresent, personal, and the source of Life, qualities belonging to God alone. These qualities clearly show that the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Faithful Spirit cannot be the angel Gabriel since Gabriel is neither omnipresent nor divine.
Second, both the Koran and hadiths clearly demonstrate that the Holy Spirit is not Gabriel. For instance, there is not a single verse in the entire Koran which states that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit or the Faithful Spirit, or even God�s Spirit. Here are all the references to Gabriel in the Quran: Say (O Muhammad, to mankind): Who is an enemy to Gabriel! For he it is who hath revealed (this Scripture) to thy heart by Allah's leave, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, and a guidance and glad tidings to believers; Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael! Then, lo! Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers. S. 2:97-98 "If ye twain turn unto Allah repentant, (ye have cause to do so) for your hearts desired (the ban); and if ye aid one another against him (Muhammad) then lo! Allah, even He, is his Protecting Friend, and Gabriel and the righteous among the believers; and furthermore the angels are his helpers." S. 66:4 Here are some additional references to the Spirit: "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?�Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!" S. 2:87 "Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God Fulfilleth His plan." S. 2:253 "When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the Holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment." S. 5:110 "Say: The Holy Spirit has revealed it from your Lord with the truth, that it may establish those who believe and as a guidance and good news for those who submit." S. 16:102 "And most surely this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. The Faithful Spirit has descended with it," S. 26:192-193 "The Exalter of Ranks, the Lord of the Throne. He causeth the Spirit of His command upon whom He will of His slaves, that He may warn of the Day of Meeting," S. 40:15 "(Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years." S. 70:4 "The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (God) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right." S. 78:38 "The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." S. 97:4 The last three passages make a distinction between the angels (of which Gabriel is obviously one) with the Spirit. This again implicitly supports our position that Gabriel is not the Spirit. Had the Spirit been Gabriel there would be no need to distinguish him from the angels. Additionally, there are two hadiths from Sahih Muslim affirming that the Spirit is not Gabriel: "Narrated Aisha: The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to pronounce while bowing and prostrating himself: All Glorious, all Holy, Lord of the Angels and the Spirit." (Sahih Muslim, Book 4, Number 0987) Again, in agreement with the Quran, this tradition distinguishes between Angels and the Spirit. This strongly suggests that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit. "... Aisha said: I heard Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) saying to Hassan: Verily Ruh al-Qudus (The Holy Spirit) will continue to help you so long as you put up a defense on behalf of Allah and his Messenger... ... and Gabriel, the Apostle of Allah is among us, and the Holy Spirit who has no match." (Sahih Muslim, Book 30, Number 6081) This hadith distinguishes clearly between Gabriel and the Holy Spirit, affirming that they are not one and the same entity. The preceding factors clearly demonstrate that the Koran provides no substantiation for the claim that "Holy Spirit" is an attributive noun used for Gabriel. In fact, a case has been made that the Koran clearly distinguishes the Holy Spirit from the angel Gabriel. Shall we talk about this? Please keep in mind that at this point we are only concerned with the Koran and the position of Muslims. After this discussion I will proceed to bring forth the position of the Christians and the Jews. I'm hoping to find some common ground. |
Replies:
Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 24 April 2006 at 10:42am
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george - you contributions so far have been excellent, if at times on the lengthy side. this is far too long. bite size snippets please. some of us have too short an attention span and too little time to digest ------------- for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16 |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 24 April 2006 at 11:22am
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I know some of them are long, Fred, but the best way to get a point across is to draw a picture. I will try in the future to limit the size if I am able to do so. :) |
fredifreeloader wrote:Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 25 April 2006 at 12:33am
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fredi, George has a habit of copying and pasting too much, far more in excess. He puts me off with his long posts but I do try to respond to the relevant part and leave the rest unanswerd. Well, that gives you an answer too. Now to George. Here is a quick reply: George, From you: Your question: Who is the Holy Spirit? Answer: Gabriel and nobodyelse! Your Muslim friends are correct. From you: "I believe that there is a distinction made between Gabriel and the Holy Spirit in the Koran and the Hadiths. "
Answer: There is no distinction between Gabriel and the Holy Spirit in Qur'aan. The Holy Spirit is Gabriel's title in Qur'aan.
You quoted: "Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: �I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud molded into shape; When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.�" S. 15:28-29"
It is so simple to understand. "God breathed into him of His Spirit" does not mean that God caught hold of the Holy Spirit as if it was standing by near and forced the Spirit down Adam's throat. George? In other words, you hav enot been able to get the message of Genesis right. It's all about knowing the style of delivery of the Semitic languages, George. You quoted: "And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples." 21:91" Answer: This simply confirms that God gave life to Jesus in his mother Maryam's womb. From you: "God�s Spirit appeared to Mary in the form of a man" A question: Was this the same Spirit that was breathed into her, according to your statement? If you read what you have written here, then you will realise that this Spirit and the one that was breathed into her ARE NOT the same. A divine personality cannot be blown into any vagina, George. God did not breathe into her vagina, the private part, through any Spirit at all, George. God gave life and soul to what was in her womb. Your problem is that you are trying your best to find a Triune God in Qur'aan! Sorry, mate! There is no such God there. You quoted:"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?�Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!" S. 2:87" You are wrongly translating Ruhul-Quds into Holy Spirit. Ruhul-Quds means a noble and a pure soul, like most of the noble prophets of God. You have a long way to go to understand Arabic. I do not wish to comment on the remaining stuff which is not worth my time. |
Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 29 April 2006 at 4:48am
| I have a short writing in the HD somewhere that I wrote few years ago about spirit but I am a bit busy now. In the mean time George can you tell me about Gabriel a bit of what you know for comparison. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 8:08am
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Please see this article: http://www.jhom.com/topics/angels/talmud_fourangels.htm - http://www.jhom.com/topics/angels/talmud_fourangels.htm Angels are messengers. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 8:10am
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So BMZ, you are saying that God does not have a spirit. Correct? Because if you are, then Islamic theology differs from Christian and Judaism's theology. The Spirit of God, or God's Holy Spirit is God.
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Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 8:28am
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George, From you: "Angels are messengers." I read the link that you provided and it considers Michael to be more powerful than Gabriel. Why was Michael "the most powerful" of the four not sent to Mary and Zechariah? You know well that Gabriel always stood, and stands in the presence of God. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 9:17am
A better question is why didn't Allah send Michael to Muhammad instead of Gabriel? |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 9:19am
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BMZ, Once again: So BMZ, you are saying that God does not have a spirit. Correct? Because if you are, then Islamic theology differs from Christian and Judaism's theology. The Spirit of God, or God's Holy Spirit is God. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 9:23am
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BMZ, Once again: "(Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years." S. 70:4 "The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (God) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right." S. 78:38 "The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." S. 97:4 The last three passages make a distinction between the angels (of which Gabriel is obviously one) with the Spirit. This again implicitly supports our position that Gabriel is not the Spirit. Had the Spirit been Gabriel there would be no need to distinguish him from the angels. Why the distinction? |
Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 11:16am
I mentioned you by name to tell me about Gabriel as of what you know - and you still use other people writing for answer. (Gabriel is a well known personality!) The only opinion you wrote is Angels are messengers. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 6:57pm
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George, You asked:"BMZ, Once again: "(Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years." S. 70:4 "The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (God) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right." S. 78:38 "The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." S. 97:4 The last three passages make a distinction between the angels (of which Gabriel is obviously one) with the Spirit. This again implicitly supports our position that Gabriel is not the Spirit. Had the Spirit been Gabriel there would be no need to distinguish him from the angels. Why the distinction?" George, this is very easy to understand. Gabriel is called Ruh and Ruh-ul-Ameen in Qur'aan. Ruh means The Spirit and Ruh-ul-Ameen means the Spirit of Truth. Gabriel is an Angel who always stands in the presence of God. There are millions and millions of angels also. You know that it is not that just one angel that descends onto earth. Sometimes more descend along with Gabriel and ascend back. Others might be descending and ascending all over God's creations elsewhere. Gabriel and the angels stood on the day when Adam was created and they will be there standing to witness the Day of Judgement. You are trying to find the "Holy Spirit of Christianity" in Qur'aan, George. It is just not there. Gabriel conveyed all messages to all prophets, with full obedience and diligence to god Almighty. Gabriel never faltered. George, I have a problem here with some of your posts. You seem to copy and paste from your Word documents. When I reply, it does not fit in well here, hence the typing chaos. Could you please type and post using this board's reply system? Or may be I am making some mistake here. Any ideas, anyone? |
Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 1:49am
Actually I do have a thought. There was no Gabriel in the time of Moses. In the Bible he first appeared in the time of Daniel. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 2:08am
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Hi superme, You wrote: "Actually I do have a thought. There was no Gabriel in the time of Moses. In the Bible he first appeared in the time of Daniel." In case of Moses, God spoke direct and the talking went on for a long time. You are right. Gabriel actually was not needed in that case. I just wrote something about this to George elsewhere.
I will try to find him before daniel, if I can! |
Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 2:22am
I incline to say that Gabriel was no where until Daniel time, and this is the reason why I ask George to state a bit of what he knows, but he did not do it. The statement that says Gabriel exist prior human is in the khadith. I know it is daring statement but I have my reason for it. Ok let see what you think. |
Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 2:33am
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George here are two links to an article, they both contain same article. Once you read it please tell me if this is the closest thing that resemble the Holy spirit. http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~magamiet/Articles,_lectures/Allegory%20of%20the%20Pen.htm - The Pen http://www.geocities.com/greenbirdy/pen.html - The Pen |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 3:03am
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superme, From you: "I incline to say that Gabriel was no where until Daniel time, and this is the reason why I ask George to state a bit of what he knows, but he did not do it. The statement that says Gabriel exist prior human is in the khadith. I know it is daring statement but I have my reason for it. Ok let see what you think." Gabriel, I believe, definitely existed before the creation of others and humans. I believe that Gabriel even existed before the creation of the Jinns and Satan. I do not believe Satan was an angel before he fell into disgrace. It is a very good bold statement and I agree with you on that. Qur'aan is very particular in saying that the angels do as they are commanded by God and never, never disobey God. In the mean time, I will go and look for Gabriel in the OT before Daniel and report to you if I find him. |
Posted By: zulqarnain
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 3:24am
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URGENT MESSAGE TO GEORGE:
REGARDING ALI SINA: GO TO THIS WEBSITE:http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/ rebuttal_to_ali_sina_5.htm ------------- And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107) |
Posted By: zulqarnain
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 3:25am
Ali Sina is the most dumbest person I have ever seen.  I am wondering if he is deliberately being dumb or he is just stupid.  ------------- And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107) |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 10:16am
I'm not sure that I agree with you. I do agree that Gabriel was first mentioned in the book of Daniel, but it could be that he simply was not mentioned by name before then. The Jews say that it was the Angel of the Lord who appeared in the Burning Bush. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 10:22am
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In the New Testament the angel Gabriel makes a clear distinction between him and God's Holy Spirit.
The Angel Gabriel distinguishes between the Holy Spirit and himself, showing quite clearly that Gabriel and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same. A Jew would also tell us that Gabriel and God's spirit are not the same. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 5:22pm
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George, From you: "I do agree that Gabriel was first mentioned in the book of Daniel, but it could be that he simply was not mentioned by name before then." The Jews say that it was the Angel of the Lord who appeared in the Burning Bush." Let me make it very clear to you vide Genesis 3 that God spoke with Moses! First Moses saw the Angel of the Lord in flames of fire from within the the Bush. Angel of the Lord must have been Gabriel (although not named by name like you said), whoelse? When the Lord (most likely the Lord Angel) saw that he had gone over to look, then God called to him from within the Bush. And then all the talking was done by God. That is what the Jews say and that is what the Christians should say too. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 5:46pm
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George, Looks like you still have not been able to understand that the One God Almighty has his own one Spirit within him so that he can function on his own and be called a Living God. You may call that Spirit within God as his Own Holy Spirit. God's own spirit cannot leave God, otherwise God will be dead. Now Gabriel has been there since time immemorial, before the creation of humans and others. Gabriel was there before the creation of any by God. He might have been the first Angel created by God and we can call him the Adam of Angels. No harm there. Gabriel is an angel, perhaps the most learned and trusted of all the angels. Gabriel, being an angel, is a Spirit living in the nearness of God Almighty, ready at service. A Spirit that lives on it's own in it's own form, conveying God's messages to all prophets. A Spirit that is Holy and such a Spirit who delivered God's message truthfully, can be called The Holy Spirit or The Spirit of Truth. As to, "THE ANGEL ANSWERED, �THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL COME UPON YOU, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you", it simply means that you will be conceive a child miraculously. Neither did the The Holy Spirit nor the Spirit of God come and make her pregnant. It was the miracle performed by the will and power of God, not by some Holy Spirit coming and making her pregnant. To make it simple, God's own Spirit cannot leave God,as I have explained before.
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Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 6:33pm
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. Anything can be angel, a human can be angel. Moses saw a fire - and the fire spoke to him, just like the link about The Pen I show you before. Moses was knowledgable man. Everything he did - he thought and implemented in line with his available knowledges that he was tought in the palace - that blinded him from seeing the fire. Ten years or so later living with goats and sheeps made him into a clean man, a born again, a fresh, a baby - free from worldly polluting knowledges. Than he could see it, just like what Al Ghazzaly's mysterious pen. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 03 May 2006 at 9:46am
No, the Jews say it was an angel in the bush and that is what I say too. Exodus 3: 3:1 Moses tended the sheep of his father-in-law Jethro sheik of Midian. He led the flock to the edge of the desert, and he came to God's Mountain, in the Horeb area. 3:2 God's angel appeared to [Moses] in the heart of a fire, in the middle of a thorn-bush. As he looked, [Moses] realized that the bush was on fire, but was not being consumed. 3:3 Moses said [to himself], 'I must go over there and investigate this wonderful phenomenon. Why doesn't the bush burn?' 3:4 When God saw that [Moses] was going to investigate, He called to him from the middle of the bush. 'Moses, Moses!' He said. 'Yes,' replied [Moses]. 3:5 'Do not come any closer,' said [God]. 'Take your shoes off your feet. The place upon which you are standing is holy ground.' 3:6 [God then] said, 'I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob.' Moses hid his face, since he was afraid to look at the Divine. It was always the angel who was speaking for God and by the authority of God. Angel=messenger in Hebrew. The message in this case is from God. Imagine the angel to be a telephone and Moses and God to be on different ends making a call. The angel doesn't need to be mentioned repeatedly, it was mentioned in verse 2. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 4:13am
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George, From you: "Imagine the angel to be a telephone and Moses and God to be on different ends making a call." I would be willing to consider and imagine this case for conversation between God and Muhammad, through the Arch-Angel Gabriel. You are suggesting that God did not come down for Moses, are you? If that is an argument then what do you use to simulate the wrestling of Jacob with? |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 8:15am
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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 08 May 2006 at 6:22am
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The Hebrew Scriptures clearly presents the Holy Spirit as God, having all the attributes of Deity and personhood. For the sake of brevity and as a special favor to Fred, I have limited the number of Scriptures. Please note that the Scriptures quoted below come from the Jewish Hebrew Scriptures used by Jews who read them in English. The Holy Spirit is Called God 2 Samuel 23: 2. The spirit of the Lord spoke in me, And His word was upon my tongue. 3. The God of Israel said, concerning me spoke the Rock of Israel; 'A ruler over men shall be the righteous (man), he that rules in the fear of God. The Holy Spirit is the Creator Job 33: 4. The spirit of God made me, and the breath of the Almighty keeps me alive. The Holy Spirit is Omnipresent Psalm 139:7. Where shall I go from Your spirit, and where shall I flee from Your presence? 8. If I ascend to the heavens, there You are, and if I make my bed in the grave, behold, You are there. 9. [If] I take up the wings of dawn, [if] I dwell at the end of the west, 10. There too, Your hand will lead me, and Your right hand will grasp me. 11. I said, "Darkness will darken me, and the night will be dark about me." 12. Even darkness will not obscure [anything] from You, and the night will light up like day; as darkness so is the light. The Holy Spirit Manifests Personal Traits Isaiah 63:10. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit, and He was turned to be their enemy; He fought with them. Nehemiah 9:30. But You extended [mercy] upon them for many years, and You warned them with Your spirit by the hand of Your prophets, but they did not incline their ears, and You delivered them into the hands of the peoples of the lands. The Holy Spirit is Israel's Redeemer Isaiah 63: 11. And His people remembered the days of old, [the days of] Moses; where is he who drew them up from the sea, [like] a shepherd His flock; where is he who placed within them His Holy Spirit? 12. He led at Moses' right the arm of His glory, splitting the water before them to make for Himself an everlasting name. 13. He led them in the depths like a horse in the desert; they did not stumble. 14. As animals spread out in a valley, the spirit of the Lord guided them, so You guided Your people to make You a glorious name. The Holy Spirit is the Author of the New Birth and the Cause of Regeneration 1 Samuel 10:6, 6. And the spirit of the Lord will pass over you, and you will prophesy with them, and you will be turned into another man. Psalm 104: 30. You will send forth Your spirit and they will be created, and You will renew the surface of the ground. The Holy Spirit Empowers and Distributes God's Gifts to Believers Exodus 31: . The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2. "See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3. and I have imbued him with the spirit of God, with wisdom, with insight, with knowledge, and with [talent for] all manner of craftsmanship 4. to do master weaving, to work with gold, with silver, and with copper, 5. with the craft of stones for setting and with the craft of wood, to do every [manner of] work. 6. And, behold, with him I have placed Oholiab the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, and all the wise hearted into whose hearts I have instilled wisdom, and they shall make everything I have commanded you: The Holy Spirit in the New Testament The New Testament, in agreement with the Old Testament, clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is fully God, having all the attributes of Deity and personhood.
I think that we can see from the Qur'an, the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament that the Holy Spirit is God and not an angel. |
Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 10 May 2006 at 2:25pm
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The New Testament, without any doubt whatsoever, teaches that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead. In fact, Christians are commanded to baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. It would be beyond ludicrous were Christians to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and an Angel. That would be the utmost form of "shirk."
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Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 10 May 2006 at 6:31pm
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Ali Baba, From you:"The New Testament, without any doubt whatsoever, teaches that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead. In fact, Christians are commanded to baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. It would be beyond ludicrous were Christians to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and an Angel. That would be the utmost form of "shirk."" Looking at above from you, It is already shirk upon shirk in either case, if you recollect Jesus forcefully reminding about worshipping only the One Lord God. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 11 May 2006 at 7:33am
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Ali Baba, From you:"The New Testament, without any doubt whatsoever, teaches that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead. In fact, Christians are commanded to baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. It would be beyond ludicrous were Christians to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and an Angel. That would be the utmost form of "shirk."" Looking at above from you, It is already shirk upon shirk in either case, if you recollect Jesus forcefully reminding about worshipping only the One Lord God. Christians only worship one God, BMZ. They are not guilty of shirk. Since the Jews believe in only one God, according to the Qur'an are they saved even though they do not accept Muhammad as a Messenger of God? Could a Muslim believe in one God and not accept Muhammad as a Messenger of God? If not, isn't Islam committing shirk by commanding that people believe in God and Muhammad as a means of being saved? |
Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 11 May 2006 at 10:45am
| Speaking of shirk, how is it that Muslims say that certain acts are blasphemy - such as saying certain things about Mohammed, who was only a man. How can you commit blaphemy against a man? Isn't that shirk? Elevating a man to the level of God? |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 11 May 2006 at 10:51am
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George, From you: "Christians only worship one God, BMZ. They are not guilty of shirk." Name the One God, George and that must be a proper name, please and tell me if you would worship that One God only by that name? Please choose one of the three and let me have it. Who would you choose out of The Father, the Holy Ghost and Jesus? Pick and let us have it! From you: "Since the Jews believe in only one God, according to the Qur'an are they saved even though they do not accept Muhammad as a Messenger of God?
I would say Yes. From you: "Could a Muslim believe in one God and not accept Muhammad as a Messenger of God?"
For a Muslim, like me and other fellow Muslims who follow the religion of Islam sent by God through Prophet Muhammad and Qur'aan, it is imperative to believe that Muhammad is the Messenger of God or a Prophet of God.
Your next question:"If not, isn't Islam committing shirk by commanding that people believe in God and Muhammad as a means of being saved?"
Only God saves and judges. Muhammad was just a man, a human who was a Prophet of God. Muhammad has no power to save any one. Muhammad does not save. Isalm is anti-shirk, George and it is telling everyone that there is only One God and that is why in Qur'aan, God spoke of his own name as Allah. You will not find so in any other scripture, where a few-word sentences became the name of God. You know well what I am referring to, don't you? "I am was there always."
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Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 11 May 2006 at 3:06pm
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bmzp said:
"Name the One God, George and that must be a proper name, please and tell me if you would worship that One God only by that name? Please choose one of the three and let me have it. Who would you choose out of The Father, the Holy Ghost and Jesus? Pick and let us have it! "
The Name of the One God is YHWH - I AM that I AM. God the Father is YHWH; God the Son is YHWH; and God the Holy Spirit is YHWH. And Moses said, Who shall I say has sent me - and God replied, I AM that I AM (YHWH). There is only One God, and He has revealed his Name as YHWH, sometimes called the tetragrammaton. By the way, if allah means simply "God" in Arabic, as many contend, then what is allah's formal name? If there is only One God, shouldn't allah be YHWH? After all, the Jewish Scriptures are the oldest revelation, would God change His Name?
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Posted By: George
Date Posted: 11 May 2006 at 4:52pm
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Name the One God, George and that must be a proper name, please and tell me if you would worship that One God only by that name? Please choose one of the three and let me have it. Who would you choose out of The Father, the Holy Ghost and Jesus? Pick and let us have it! The closest that I can come to God's name is: Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh. It is not a noun. The meanings could include I am, I exist, I live. I am who I am is almost but not quite close enough. The word asher is used in Hebrew and Aramaic and is usually defined as the origin or the beginning From you: "Since the Jews believe in only one God, according to the Qur'an are they saved even though they do not accept Muhammad as a Messenger of God?
Great, I will go tell all the Jews that they are saved and they don't have to believe in the Qur'an or Muhammad.
Your next question:"If not, isn't Islam committing shirk by commanding that people believe in God and Muhammad as a means of being saved?" Only God saves and judges. Yes, and he sent Jesus as our Savior.
Muhammad was just a man, a human who was a Prophet of God. Muhammad has no power to save any one. Muhammad does not save. Isalm is anti-shirk, George and it is telling everyone that there is only One God and that is why in Qur'aan, God spoke of his own name as Allah. You will not find so in any other scripture, where a few-word sentences became the name of God. Allah is the generic name for God. Then you admit that the message of Muhammad does not have the power to save anyone. Christians believe in only one God, BMZ. When are you going to get that fact?
You know well what I am referring to, don't you? "I am was there always." No, I have no idea what you are talking about. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 11 May 2006 at 8:46pm
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Ali Baba, From you:"Speaking of shirk, how is it that Muslims say that certain acts are blasphemy - such as saying certain things about Mohammed, who was only a man. How can you commit blaphemy against a man? Isn't that shirk? Elevating a man to the level of God?" Blasphemy is profane talk about God and religion. Blasphemy is not exclusively reserved for talking profanely against God. If one talks profanely about Moses, Muhammad and Jesus or any other Prophet, one is blaspheming. In other words, if people talk profanely about Muhammad and insult or blaspheme him, we don't like that. We don't appreciate that. Hope that is clear. There is no elevation of a man to the level of God. Likewise, it would be blasphemy if you raise or elevate Jesus to the level of God, for God said in all integrity there was no other besides himself. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 11 May 2006 at 9:29pm
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Ali Baba, From you: "By the way, if allah means simply "God" in Arabic, as many contend, then what is allah's formal name? If there is only One God, shouldn't allah be YHWH? After all, the Jewish Scriptures are the oldest revelation, would God change His Name?" I would appreciate if you could write Allah properly with a Capital or Bold A. I am sure you wouldn't like to see me writing god or jesus. Yes, Yahweh or Yahuweh or Hashem of the Jews is the Allah of Muslims. Even the God in the Christians' Arabic Bible is called Allah by the Christian Arabs. Even with the "Tetragrammation" Yahweh reduced to YHWH is still Yahweh or Yahuweh. From you: "The Name of the One God is YHWH - I AM that I AM. God the Father is YHWH; God the Son is YHWH; and God the Holy Spirit is YHWH." The above is a Christian view and the Jews do not share this view and neither do we! From you: "And Moses said, Who shall I say has sent me - and God replied, I AM that I AM (YHWH)." Moses asked God for his name. God did not give him one. God did not say,"Moses, my name is I AM THAT I AM and tell people that I AM THAT I AM sent you." By saying I am that I am, God was telling Moses not to ask what his name was and wanted him to go to the Pharoah and the people to tell them God sent him. In fact the message given at the meeting, in simple words was "Don't worry about my name, go and do as you are told." Here is something interesting, Ali. God really has no name as in the sense of our worldly names. The names are given by people. Also, as God was not begotten, he could not have been named. Call God by beautiful names which glorify and praise God. Hashem or Yahuwah or Yahuweh or Allah. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 11 May 2006 at 9:46pm
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George, I wrote: Only God saves and judges. From you: "Yes, and he sent Jesus as our Savior." That is an irrelevant answer, as God is already everbody's Saviour. That has been confirmed by God with Integrity in Isaiah and that stands. God does not change his words or statements or promises. I, BMZ wrote and gave you this answer: "Muhammad was just a man, a human who was a Prophet of God. Muhammad has no power to save any one. Muhammad does not save. Isalm is anti-shirk, George and it is telling everyone that there is only One God and that is why in Qur'aan, God spoke of his own name as Allah. You will not find so in any other scripture, where a few-word sentences became the name of God. George, you wrote: "Allah is the generic name for God. Then you admit that the message of Muhammad does not have the power to save anyone." What kind of a silly comment is that, George? When I have said clearly that God is The Saviour, that is already enough. The messages of God through Moses, Jesus and Muhammad educate you, me and the humanity. Do you think that the Bible, a book written by men will save you or the Jewish Tanakh will save the Jews? It is the message that leads one to God, the Only Saviour. |
Posted By: George
Date Posted: 13 May 2006 at 6:22am
God send Jesus as our savior, BMZ. He can do that. He uses men to save us as I explained in another post. I can understand that a Muslim might have a hard time with this since you do not believe that Jesus died on the cross, much less rose from the dead. Peace
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Posted By: Mishmish
Date Posted: 14 May 2006 at 1:06am
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"Could a Muslim believe in one God and not accept Muhammad as a Messenger of God? If not, isn't Islam committing shirk by commanding that people believe in God and Muhammad as a means of being saved?"
If I may interject, Muslims MUST believe in all of the Prophets and Messengers of God, not just the Prophet Mohammed. That is a cornerstone of our faith. Belief in the Prophets and Messengers denotes belief in the Word of God, not divinity of the men who brought us that Word. It would only be shirk if we assigned divinity to these men.
------------- It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince) |