I'm gone.  I've had it.  I have spent 9.5 months here learning about Islam.  And those of you who have been around know I've kept my faith out of most of my discussions.  I'm done.  When an "Orthodox" Christian feels the need to bring up If I Could Hie to Kolob on AN ISLAMIC WEBSITE, there is only one reason to do it.  To try to discredit me and prove my faith wrong.  This is not a forum to do that.  If Andalus and the other Christians want to bash Mormonism.  Go to Beliefnet and hit the challenge forums.  Leave these people alone.  I for one am out of here.  I came here to learn about Islam, not to have my faith mocked by so called Christian men and women.  Have fun in your little quests to save the souls of the Muslims.  Because I'm pretty certain that's the only reason you're here and since I wasn't on board with that.  I became the target.  No longer.

assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatahu

Angela

Angela wrote: When an "Orthodox" Christian feels the need to bring up If I Could Hie to Kolob on AN ISLAMIC WEBSITE, there is only one reason to do it.  To try to discredit me and prove my faith wrong.

I saw a news article last week than I saved it because it sound so peculiar. Than Andalus post appear and I was thinking to make a comment on it. Now you going and the thread is lock. Anyway my best wishes for you. Both my comment and the article are below here:

If you could hie to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye,
IF.  Yes why not - it is the best way to start an understanding.

And then continue onward with the speed of light to fly**,
D'ye think that you could ever, through all eternity,
Find out the generation where Gods began to be?
Finding the root by tracing backward from Z to A is always
the correct way.

Or see the grand beginning, where space did not extend?
"A singularity", according to astronomers.

Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end?
No, I dont think that can happen for us as long as an individual is concern. Only WE can view it.

Methinks the Spirit whispers, "No man has found 'pure space',"
Nor seen the outside curtains, where nothing has a place.
I am walking along fine so far. Somewhere in the Qur'an it stated that it is not fitting for God to speak unto mortal except from behind the veil.

The works of God continue, and worlds and lives abound;
He is ever living, always active. Islamically no slumber ever take place.

Improvement and progression have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
there is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
there is no end to race.

I am pretty much in agreement with reservation for the last three lines. I can't wrong him or right him.

--------------------------------------------------

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060424/ap_on_sc/mormon_crickets

Mon Apr 24 2006, 7:33 PM ET

RENO, Nev. - The threat of being eaten could drive the march of Mormon crickets as they munch their way across millions of acres in the arid West, new research suggests.

An international group of researchers has been studying the crickets that have invaded much of Nevada, Utah and Idaho in recent years.

They found that the insects that move in large bands survive on salt and protein found in seeds, flowers, dead animals and feces. But when those food sources are absent, the bugs turn to what's available - each other. The crickets themselves are "walking packages of protein and salt," the study said.

"We suspect that they also move more because of the chance of being eaten," said Patrick Lorch, a research biologist with Kent State University.

"You can imagine that if you are at the back of a band of 1 million marching crickets, there is little food left and the cricket in front of you starts to look mighty tasty," Lorch told the Reno Gazette-Journal.

Crickets slowed by injury are particularly vulnerable to being eaten by their brethren, researchers found.

Lorch was among researchers from the United States, England and Australia that conducted the study, published recently by the National Academies of Science.

Also known as flightless katydids, Mormon crickets can destroy 40 percent to 50 percent of the vegetation in their path. About 12 million acres were infested by the insects last year in Nevada.

Lorch said it's uncertain whether the danger of being eaten from behind really motivates the crickets at the head of the column to step up the pace. The insects are not cognizant, but the danger could be hard wired into their tiny brains, he said.

"We don't honestly know if they move faster than they would because of the fear of being eaten," Lorch said. "But that's the sort of thing we imagine is going on."

Greetings Angela.

First let me apologize. If I had known such sensitivities abounded on this forum, I would have spelled out my intentions much more clearly.

1) I am not Christian. I am a Muslim. I converted 5 years ago. I come from two backgrounds: Christianity and Judaism. I have studied the other faiths, and Mormonism is one faith that has always been interesting from an academic point of view. It was after taking a course on World Civilization that I found Islam.

I put my faith up for criticism, wide and open, and I do not fear charges or accusations or criticism. My faith is solid, Prasie Gd, and can only be moved by Him. In my numerous debates in the last 5 years, some of which have been harsh, I have found that those who read them and follow them can be the reason for having them. I have had emails from readers who have thanked me for my participation, even when the other party was nasty, harsh, and unmoving, the fact that someone could compare the rhetoric and positions on both side was enough to sway people to convert to Islam. From this I can say that I have thick skin within that context. My background is the sciences, which also gave me "thick skin". Sometimes I forget that others may be very thinned skinned. I apologize for my insensitivites. My intention was not to mock, as the hymm in question is/was a mainstream hymm. If you feel uncomfortable about it, then perhaps you should meditate on this.  

2) This is an interfaith forum. Mormonism is a sect of Christianity. The idea of the nature of Gd and expected tenets in the C of LDS has evolved. Many adherents deny the early beliefs, and the newer texts and practices have cleaned up some of the past "ideas". One may still find these beliefs, denied by modern practioners, in hyms, and statements by Joseph Smith.

3) The ideas about the nature of Gd by the Church of LDS, compared to that of Orthodox Christianity and Islam, and how it evolved, is the point I was hoping to reach through a discussion. I wanted to discuss the idea of Kolob, and the "celestial" resident of Gd, to estabish this idea.

4) You sould have been allowed to bring up your faith. It is an interfaith dialogue forum. Moderation should never interfere with truth seeking. Sometimes the boundaries are blurred. Now that I know you are not comfortable with any discussion on Mormonism, I will not bring it up again. I am sorry, please forgive me. And I hope you will stay.

 Sincerely, Daniel 

Angela wrote: I'm gone.  I've had it.  I have spent 9.5 months here learning about Islam.  And those of you who have been around know I've kept my faith out of most of my discussions.  I'm done.  When an "Orthodox" Christian feels the need to bring up If I Could Hie to Kolob on AN ISLAMIC WEBSITE, there is only one reason to do it.  To try to discredit me and prove my faith wrong.  This is not a forum to do that.  If Andalus and the other Christians want to bash Mormonism.  Go to Beliefnet and hit the challenge forums.  Leave these people alone.  I for one am out of here.  I came here to learn about Islam, not to have my faith mocked by so called Christian men and women.  Have fun in your little quests to save the souls of the Muslims.  Because I'm pretty certain that's the only reason you're here and since I wasn't on board with that.  I became the target.  No longer. assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatahu Angela

Assalamu Alaikum:

4) You sould have been allowed to bring up your faith. It is an interfaith dialogue forum. Moderation should never interfere with truth seeking. Sometimes the boundaries are blurred. Now that I know you are not comfortable with any discussion on Mormonism, I will not bring it up again. I am sorry, please forgive me. And I hope you will stay.

Angela was never asked not to bring up her faith, she chose not to out of respect. Her post deals rather with the fact that she has consistently been the target of others on the forum who mocked her and her beliefs. Because she has shown such respect towards Islam and sincerely tried to learn, other Christians have made it very difficult for her, even going so far as to send her harassing personal e-mails.

A few weeks ago the Moderators made it very plain that we would not allow these types of verbal attacks toward any individual or their beliefs.

You may find the Moderating heavy-handed, but when you are on the receiving end of these types of personal attacks, especially when you have done nothing to provoke it, then you might feel that the Moderators are not doing enough.

Angela, I am So sorry that this happened. Perhaps Andalus truly did not mean anything untoward.

Please rethink leaving the forum.

Salaams, Dwanna

Mishmish wrote: Assalamu Alaikum: 4) You sould have been allowed to bring up your faith. It is an interfaith dialogue forum. Moderation should never interfere with truth seeking. Sometimes the boundaries are blurred. Now that I know you are not comfortable with any discussion on Mormonism, I will not bring it up again. I am sorry, please forgive me. And I hope you will stay. Angela was never asked not to bring up her faith, she chose not to out of respect. Her post deals rather with the fact that she has consistently been the target of others on the forum who mocked her and her beliefs. Because she has shown such respect towards Islam and sincerely tried to learn, other Christians have made it very difficult for her, even going so far as to send her harassing personal e-mails. A few weeks ago the Moderators made it very plain that we would not allow these types of verbal attacks toward any individual or their beliefs. You may find the Moderating heavy-handed, but when you are on the receiving end of these types of personal attacks, especially when you have done nothing to provoke it, then you might feel that the Moderators are not doing enough. Angela, I am So sorry that this happened. Perhaps Andalus truly did not mean anything untoward. Please rethink leaving the forum. Salaams, Dwanna

Assalam Aleikum.

Sister, we obviously have our own views, and though I may not agree, I can respect you and apologize to you if I have offended you.

I appreciate your input and counsel.

May Allah bless all of us and keep us on the true path. 

Bismillah,

Brother Andalus,

Didn't you see the numerous, personal attacks earlier in the month?

Assalamu Alaikum!

Sister Angela:

 I hope that you would change your mind and stay here at the forum. I really feel sorry that you have been the target of personal attacks over the last couple of weeks. It is sad. Moderators are doing their best to stop this from happening so that everyone here can feel safe and learn. It is really a hard job to keep everyone happy, but yes, we try. In the process, if anything went wrong, I would like to apologize to you.

Brother Andalus:

 I greatly admire your knowledge and mastery over holy Scriptures. I used to visit sometimes your forum on yahoo group, Bismika Allahuma where you were moderator. I don't know if that yahoo group forum exists now. I wanted to visit there some time back, but couldn't. It seems you have a new site now. I wish that brother Menj is fine there. Please convey my regards and Salam to him. Brother, I am happy to see that you would not bring mormonism considering sensitivities of your fellow forum user. If you have any concern, you are always welcome to bring that in this section.

Our differences should make us stronger and better Muslims, and I think, that is the purpose behind any difference as far as our very creation is concerned. This is also an opportunity for us all  to reflect as to how our words and behaviour would affect other users, Muslims or non-Muslims.

I hope that after strife, there would be peace insha Allah.

May Allah guide us all.

Peace

peacemaker wrote:   Brother Andalus:  I greatly admire your knowledge and mastery over holy Scriptures. I used to visit sometimes your forum on yahoo group, Bismika Allahuma where you were moderator. I don't know if that yahoo group forum exists now. I wanted to visit there some time back, but couldn't. It seems you have a new site now. I wish that brother Menj is fine there. Please convey my regards and Salam to him. Brother, I am happy to see that you would not bring mormonism considering sensitivities of your fellow forum user. If you have any concern, you are always welcome to bring that in this section. Our differences should make us stronger and better Muslims, and I think, that is the purpose behind any difference as far as our very creation is concerned. This is also an opportunity for us all  to reflect as to how our words and behaviour would affect other users, Muslims or non-Muslims. I hope that after strife, there would be peace insha Allah. May Allah guide us all. Peace

Assalam Aleikum!

I guess we have crossed paths before!

Menj is doing fine! And I will send him your greetings. He has started a new forum http://www.noorullah.org - http://www.noorullah.org that will reflect a different "environment" that will be more appealing to Muslims. He has just started it off. The bismikallahuma yahoo site is still there but there is not debate any more. There has been a pattern in the last few years of Muslims receding from the debate forums so many of the past sites that had decent discussions are now dead, except for Christians who seem to have endless zeal for rhetoric. The site that is in the link in my signature is a double edged sword. The site uses miminum moderation and puts Islam out for criticism. This has produced some hot topic debate, and it has also turned off some Muslims who feel that moderation should censor more often. I am a mod there as well and sometimes it takes all of my will to let some things go. There are some really smart non-Muslims out there who have put together really solid arguments against Islam, and usally they use material from certain "websites" that promote "Science in the Quran", or "dime store theology", which looks great to new comers in Islam, but have serious flaws. I am currently putting together something that deals with the notion of "Science in the Quran" refuting a fowl indivdual who has a complete hate and disdain for Muslims. My piece will also correct the "innovation" of 20th century Muslims who insist on interpreting the Quran through the latest scientific theories and fads. I think I am digressing.

The forum in my signature brings in some of the riff raff that cannot make it into the other Islamic sites, and so the site is not for the faint of heart. I will say that it is more open to ideas regardless of how critical they are when compared to the forums of other faiths. The

   http://www.noorullah.org/ - http://www.noorullah.org   site is going to be more controlled and have stricter rules, with tighter moderation. It will be an environment more appealing to the average Muslim. I will be moderating there as well in the near future, insha"allah. You and all else are welcome to both sites, but understand that the bismikallahuma site can be raw and the noorullah site is very new so participaiton is just taking off. Thank you for your completments, that is very kind of you. I am sorry about the "riff raff" I seemed to have started with my interest in Mormon theology.

assalam aleikum, wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh   

Assalam Aleikum.

I have not noticed anything? Given I am not easily offended perhaps we have very different perspectives on what we see.

ma'salaama

herjihad wrote: Bismillah, Brother Andalus, Didn't you see the numerous, personal attacks earlier in the month?

I figured I should respond Andalus.  Just because you are not easily offended does not mean that others are not.  I do not like to see my faith mocked, picked apart and ridiculed.  I am the only Mormon on this board, therefore, any post about Mormons is a personal one because I'm the only one left to defend my faith.  It would be like grabbing poor sister amah and sticking her in the middle of a Southern Baptist Missionary Convention by herself.  Though she would be able to express her beliefs, she would eventually feel the pressure and the hurt from no one respecting her beliefs.  Here's the first point that I have a problem with....the insistance of Non Mormons to pull out the deeper and more obsure doctrines without understanding the basic tenets of the faith......we have a saying.  You must have the milk before you can have the meat.  If you don't understand the basics, then you'll never understand the deeper doctrines.  Secondly, Non Mormons never "get it" when it comes to things like Kolob and Eternal Progression.  So there is no point in discussing them on a Non Mormon site.  Thirdly, not everyone here is here to discuss their own religion.  If I wanted to talk about Mormonism, I would be on my Latter Day Gospel website with my Mormon friends.  Instead, I'm here to learn about Islam.  I joined a Jewish site for the same reason. (Oh, Moderators, I just wanted to say, I was more welcomed here than there....they were actually quiet rude from question one and I only said I was Christian.....so there is one thing to be happy about, you are more welcoming than some sites)

I'm not here to evangelize.  There are plenty of Mormon sanctioned websites you could find your answers on...there are plenty of books I could tell you to read.  This is not a Mormon site.  Its Muslim site.....so its completely inappropriate to start picking part the faith of someone who was here to learn about yours.

Lastly, I cannot stay here if this is the way things are going to be.  When someone feels the need (Christian or Muslim) to start picking apart what they feel is wrong in my faith, then its becomes a hostile place for me.  When I ask a question about Islam, its not to pick it apart its to understand.  I'm not here to be proven wrong and its disrupting the boards everytime a new post is placed up.  I love the Ummah here.  I love the knowledge they have brought me.  I cannot continue to be a source of discord on this site.  As long as my presence remains here.  There will be Mengs, Athanasius' and Andalus' picking at my faith and not respecting my different viewpoint.  I've never asked anyone to believe.....just understand that I am different.  Since people are seemingly incapable of leaving me alone...I don't really have a choice.  Khadija, Herjihad, Mishmish, Amah, Salman, Peacemaker and others, thank you so much that you care.  But you shouldn't have to have the headaches because of the bigotry towards my religion.  Its not fair to you.  I am Mormon, I get this all the time.  You shouldn't have to deal with it.

Next time Andalus, when there is a lone member of a faith here, perhaps you should ask if they feel comfortable discussing their faith before you go and post a thread on something you have no understanding in regards to. 

Angela

WTG guys, run off one of the few people on the boards that has an open mind.   

Good luck Angela and hope to see posts from you again.

Dear Angela,

I'm very sorry I didn't have the opportunity of conversing with you.  I have been here for just the past few days, but I was here frequently in past years.  I first joined in 2001.  I, too, am here to learn more about Islam.  And I'm rather a loner myself.  I am Catholic.  There, that's enough to make many people begin to mumble and shudder.  But that's what I am called to and believe in.

I know some of Mormonism....my cousin and her husband are Mormons, and one of my best friends is Mormon.  I have the greatest respect for them, and have always known them to be among the most peaceful, devoted, compassionate, and highly family valued persons on earth. 

If you could possibly see fit to remain here for awhile longer, I would really like to have the possibility of talking with you.  I'm sure this would greatly please our Heavenly Father, don't you think?

God's Peace Always,

Patty

Once again, I was talked out of leaving, thanks to Brother Salman and Sister Amah. 

This place is an evil addiction. 

But, again, the statement is I'm not here to discuss my faith.  Respectful questions yes, but this isn't the place for debate on my religion.  There are other places to do that. 

Here I am simply a Christian of a different denomination, with different beliefs.  I want to leave it at that.

Angela wrote: I figured I should respond Andalus.  Just because you are not easily offended does not mean that others are not.  I do not like to see my faith mocked, picked apart and ridiculed.

Greetings Angela.

I am happy you decided to stay. I have already stated I would respect your "sensitive" nature, but you have made accusations that are simply false. I have not mocked your faith. I have not picked it a part. I quoted your sources, in conext without any tampering with the text. If you feel that I have really mocked your faith, then you should really think deep about your feelings of discomfort and make sure they are aimed at the right place. Let your faith affirm yourself. If you are a Mormon then be proud and affirmed by your texts. As a Muslim, I hear more insults than any Mormon will.

Angela wrote:    Here's the first point that I have a problem with....the insistance of Non Mormons to pull out the deeper and more obsure doctrines without understanding the basic tenets of the faith......we have a saying.  You must have the milk before you can have the meat.  If you don't understand the basics, then you'll never understand the deeper doctrines.  Secondly, Non Mormons never "get it" when it comes to things like Kolob and Eternal Progression.  So there is no point in discussing them on a Non Mormon site.

I apologized to you and agreed to not discuss you faith, and you are now discussing your faith. I understand your faith very clearly. I will leave it at that.

Again I am glad you will stay and I will not go into your faith.

Peace

Andalus,

When you face daily the attacks that I have over my faith, then you would understand my "sensitivities" a little better.

http://www.fairlds.org/ - http://www.fairlds.org/

http://www.fairlds.org/cgi-bin/search/search.pl?Terms=anti-mormon - http://www.fairlds.org/cgi-bin/search/search.pl?Terms=anti-m ormon

Go to this site, watch the videos of the protestors and street preachers.  Mormons are always being attacked.  We are sensitive and defensive, but with good reason. 

You titled your little forum, Mormon Hym About the Planet Gd was Born?  That is a complete fallacy as to what we believe.  In posting that, you started the forum off with the wrong spirit.  That was the problem I had.  You didn't ask what it meant, you implied you knew better than we do.