The Arabic word "qara'a" is the verb "read", but I'm sure you know that.  The story of the revelation of the first three verses of sura al-alaq (chapt. 96), the first revelation of the Qur'an given to Muhammad, is very well known from ahadith.

Don't know the story?  Qara'a (read):

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau96.html - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau96.html

http://www.islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/Quran/article03.shtml - http://www.islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/Quran/ar ticle03.shtml

Peace, ummziba.

ummziba wrote: The Arabic word "qara'a" is the verb "read", but I'm sure you know that.  The story of the revelation of the first three verses of sura al-alaq (chapt. 96), the first revelation of the Qur'an given to Muhammad, is very well known from ahadith. Don't know the story?  Qara'a (read): http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau96.html - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau96.html http://www.islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/Quran/article03.shtml - http://www.islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/Quran/ar ticle03.shtml Peace, ummziba.

Yes, I know that qara'a" is the verb "read" and I do know the story.  I thought it also could mean something else besides read, because read does not make sense to me.

My confusion is why would Allah send Gabriel to Muhammad and ask him to read when Allah would already know that Muhammad could not read?

I have asked this same question of other Muslims and none had the answer.  Since we have so many intellegent Muslims on IC, I thought maybe I could get a satisfactory answer on this board.

Thank you for the help.

George,

I've always been told that was part of the Miracle.  Muhammed (pbuh) knew he could not read.  Yet, he was commanded and read. 

Like Sarah being told she'd have a son when she was so old. 

Angie

George,

Perhaps this bit of tafsir might be helpful in your understanding of these verses:

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=96&tid=58740 - http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=96&tid=58740

These verses are showing how man is special because he can gain knowledge, by spoken word, reading and writing.  Of course Allah knew the Prophet could not read - the message of the verses are for all mankind.  Hope this helps.

Peace, ummziba.

Here is another good link that addresses the issue of the "unlettered Prophet":

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=1108&dgn=4 - http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=brows e&QR=1108&dgn=4

Angela: Muhammad never read, he never could.  The above link is a good explaination. 

It is as if within the concept of "read", when talking about Qur'an, it encompasses all knowledge that can be gained by people through learning and knowing the wisdom contained within it.  So, when I "read" Qur'an, I gain knowledge, when I recite Qur'an to others, I pass on knowledge, when someone writes down the wisdom, they preserve knowledge.....qara'a!  Does that help?

Peace, ummziba.

George,

To cut a long story short, let me make it very simple for you. Translating word for word has not gotten you any where so far.

Let me put this way first:

1.Gabriel appears to Muhammad like he appeared to so many before.

2. He must have greeted and introduced himself and then told him the purpose of his coming.

3. He did not bring along any book with him so the question of asking Muhammad to read from the book does not arise.

4. Muhammad, likewise, did not have a notebook, a feather nib and ink with him also, so the question of writing does not arise.

5. What could the word Iqra mean then?

6. Muhammad could not recite anything of his own or on his own.

The simple meaning is that Gabriel said, "Repeat after me what I say or just say the words that I recite."

An example of this can be found in the swearing in ceremony of a President or a Prime Minister, when the Supreme Court Judge recites the oath or reads out to the President or the PM and he/she repeats or recites or reads or follows or says what he/she is told.  

I can safely say that the President or the PM read the oath or recited the oath or repeated the oath after the Supreme Court Judge or Justice.

Hope you have understood this time. You cannot understand Semitic and Oriental languages well in and with the help of  English or Greek. Please remember that.

George wrote: ummziba wrote: The Arabic word "qara'a" is the verb "read", but I'm sure you know that.  The story of the revelation of the first three verses of sura al-alaq (chapt. 96), the first revelation of the Qur'an given to Muhammad, is very well known from ahadith. Don't know the story?  Qara'a (read): http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau96.html - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau96.html http://www.islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/Quran/article03.shtml - http://www.islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/Quran/ar ticle03.shtml Peace, ummziba. Yes, I know that qara'a" is the verb "read" and I do know the story.  I thought it also could mean something else besides read, because read does not make sense to me. My confusion is why would Allah send Gabriel to Muhammad and ask him to read when Allah would already know that Muhammad could not read? I have asked this same question of other Muslims and none had the answer.  Since we have so many intellegent Muslims on IC, I thought maybe I could get a satisfactory answer on this board. Thank you for the help.

Greetings.

Our ability to read is not caused by something other than Gd. In other words, our inability to read is not an obstacle for us to read if Gd so Wills it, and is not a problem if Gd wants us to read. We also believe that a woman birthed a baby without having had intercourse. Intercourse is not the first cause for a woman to have a baby, the first cause is Gd.  

Peace

bmzsp wrote: Translating word for word has not gotten you any where so far. You cannot understand Semitic and Oriental languages well in and with the help of  English. Please remember that.

So, this is where the problem lies: with those who don't understand that the Qur'an in anything but Arabic is not the Qur'an at all but merely an interpretation of the meaning (as opposed to a translation - which they are not).  And that trying to understand the Qur'an must come with a knowledge of Arabic.

Good points, bmzsp.

Peace, ummziba.

Exactly and Thanks ummziba.

For an easy understanding of the problem in translation, just look at the kalima or the declaration that God Almighty is One.

"Laa Ilaaha il-lal-aah"

Translated as:

"There is no god but Allah." 

"There is no other god besides Allah."

"There is no other god but only Allah."

"There is no god except Allah."

"There is no other deity besides Allah." The construction of Arabic for the Kalima has this main thrust here to negate and deny the deity of Jesus or anybodyelse.

The simplest meaning is "Allah is the Only God."

Hope you enjoyed the variations from various translators, who tried to get the meanings of a Semitic language as closely as possible to English.

It is not true that Qur'aan cannot be translated perfectly. Someday some better knowledgeable and gifted people will InshaAllah do it. I have put this remark before George comes after me.

I have seen some great translations done in Urdu. People who are familiar with Urdu can pick up Arabic easily.

The moral of this write-up for us is to learn Arabic, enough to read and understand. Once we know how to read and understand, we can read and learn more. That is why Gabriel said "Read" and did not say "Write down".

Best Regards & Salaam Aalikum

BMZ

bmzsp wrote: George, To cut a long story short, let me make it very simple for you. Translating word for word has not gotten you any where so far. Let me put this way first: 1.Gabriel appears to Muhammad like he appeared to so many before. 2. He must have greeted and introduced himself and then told him the purpose of his coming. 3. He did not bring along any book with him so the question of asking Muhammad to read from the book does not arise. 4. Muhammad, likewise, did not have a notebook, a feather nib and ink with him also, so the question of writing does not arise. 5. What could the word Iqra mean then? 6. Muhammad could not recite anything of his own or on his own. The simple meaning is that Gabriel said, "Repeat after me what I say or just say the words that I recite." An example of this can be found in the swearing in ceremony of a President or a Prime Minister, when the Supreme Court Judge recites the oath or reads out to the President or the PM and he/she repeats or recites or reads or follows or says what he/she is told.   I can safely say that the President or the PM read the oath or recited the oath or repeated the oath after the Supreme Court Judge or Justice. Hope you have understood this time. You cannot understand Semitic and Oriental languages well in and with the help of  English or Greek. Please remember that.

The story does not say that Gabriel introduced himself to Muhammad.  As the story goes Muhammad did not know who was speaking to him.  This is clearly spelled out in the Hadith.

"Muhammad (s) was terrified by the whole experience of the revelation and fled the cave of Mt. Hira [Qur'an 81:19-29]. When he reached his home, tired and frightened, he asked his wife: �cover me, cover me,� in a blanket. After his awe had somewhat abated, his wife Khadijah asked him about the reason of his great anxiety and fear. She then assured him by saying: "Allah (The One God) will not let you down because you are kind to relatives, you speak only the truth, you help the poor, the orphan and the needy, and you are an honest man. Khadijah then consulted with her cousin Waraqa who was an old, saintly man possessing knowledge of previous revelations and scriptures. Waraqa confirmed to her that the visitor was none other than the Angel Gabriel who had come to Moses. He then added that Muhammad is the expected Prophet. Khadijah accepted the revelation as truth and was the first person to accept Islam. She supported her hu sband in every hardship, most notably during the three-year �boycott� of the Prophet�s clan by the pagan Quraish. She died at the age of sixty-five in the month of Ramadan soon after the lifting of the boycott in 620 CE."

Source:  http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/muhammad.html - http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/muhammad.html

Notice that it was Waraqa who said that it was Gabriel and also notice that it was Waraqa who said that Muhammad was a prophet like Moses.

Since about 75-80% of Muslims cannot read or understand the Arabic language then they are in the same boat that I am in.  Surely, you aren't suggesting that the Qur'an cannot properly be translated into other languages with the meaning of the Arabic words in tack, are you?

One does not need to be able to read in order to repeat words after someone else.

If Muhammad was asked to read and he said he couldn't read, that is fine if the angel asked him to read some text, but according to you, he didn't have any text.  Using your logic then Muhammad should have said, "I do not know how to recite" and not "I do not know how to read."  In other words, Muhammad's response does not match what he was asked to do.

Beyond all of this I would think that Muhammad would have know how to read and write because of the business he was in.  His wife had a business and Muhammad was a part of it.  He would have had to know some basics in reading and writing.

The article I cited above says:

"Under the guardianship of Abu Talib, Muhammad (s) began to earn a living as a businessman and a trader. At the age of twelve, he accompanied Abu Talib with a merchant caravan as far as Bostra in Syria. Muhammad was popularly known as �al-Ameen� for his unimpeachable character by the Makkans and visitors alike. The title Al-Ameen means the Honest, the Reliable and the Trustworthy, and it signified the highest standard of moral and public life.

Upon hearing of Muhammad�s impressive credentials, Khadijah, a rich merchant widow, asked Muhammad (s) to take some merchandise for trade to Syria."

Also I would think that Khadijah would have had to know how to read and write and would have taught her husband the basics. 

I don't understand this story.  It doesn't make sense to me. 

George wrote: I don't understand this story.  It doesn't make sense to me.

George,

It doesn't make sense to you because you refuse to believe that Muhammad was an illiterate, a fact confirmed many times in the Qur'an (see the link to the "unlettered Prophet" story I gave).  You are just tripping yourself up on your own self doubt.  Not to worry, some Muslims get the story.  Perhaps, insha'allah, some day you might too.

Think outside the box...

Meantime, we can all do well to study our revelations from Allah - the studying is what leads to knowledge which leads to understanding which leads to a great gift from Allah: inner peace.  May Allah grant us all some of that today.

Peace, ummziba.

of course muhammad could read and write.

see sahih bukhari vol7book62no.88 - he wrote the marriage contract with aisha.  also - vol1book3no.114 - "i shall write for you a statement".  also vol5book59no.717 - "come near, i will write for you something after which you will not go astray" ------also vol4book53no.393 - he wants a bone of scapula to write on

George,

From you: "The story does not say that Gabriel introduced himself to Muhammad."

Is this what how you understood my post?  Let me go another way round:

If there is an illiterate English-speaking Western man, who can neither read nor write English but he speaks English. You tell him to sing a song along with you by following you. Can that illiterate man do that?

Certainly he can!

You sing first: Baa baa black sheep

and he sings after listening to you: Baa baa black sheep

Then you sing: Have you any wool?

and he sings: Have you any wool?

till you both finish the song or a message. The same illiterate gentleman, who could neither read nor write sang the song after you. Is it that difficult to understand?

That is what Muhammad did. Muhammad followed what Gbariel said or recited.

Regarding your quotes from the Hadith, you know well and I have told you many times that if a Hadith is weak and falls flat under Qur'aan, a Muslim has to trust and follow Qur'aan which is the WORD of God.

Please read Surah 53 Najm and you will know what God Almighty is telling us about Muhammad's First encounter and another encounter.I do not need stories when my Lord God Almighty is already telling us the strong character of our dear Prophet.  

That is a glorious tribute to Muhammad by God Almighty direct. that Surah aslo demolishes the liars like Ali Sina, Ibn Warraq, Salman Rushdi and their Satanic company who don't even have real names for themselves, except salman Rushdi.  

Question time now:

A very important question and answer it very carefully, please: Did Jesus know how to write? 

It is amusing to see this topic keep on appearing everywhere. How one attempt to translate and argue over a translation of a Quran that still remains in original Arabic language (till this day) - and somehow missed out understanding the actual message behind the whole Ayah!

I mean, I have seen argument between the sunni & the shia over a translation of the word ummi. One defines ummi as illiterate while the other believe it as unschooled. Whatever it is, to me, Muhammad (Saw) is both �illiterate� and �unschooled� before the first revelation.

But some people will argue that he is a successful merchant! And so they say our prophet can�t be illiterate. For this people, a good question to ask them is that, was it a valid reason to assume that he was not illiterate just because he was a successful trader? (I mean my grandfather was illiterate but he was a successful trader. He never had any formal education and could not read or write an essay, but still he was able to read/write bills and receipts because he was familiar with the items of trade.)

Illiterate Eskimos trade too. There are still some Bedouin Arabs living in the desert who take camels through the desert and trade when they come to the cities, yet they are illiterate and un-school.

Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad's success in trading didn't come from marketing, finance, or administrative skills... he was successful because he had a reputation for being trustworthy and honest. (Ever wonders how the Arab 1400 years ago consider a merchant as being a successful merchant?)

It is good to know some history about Muhammad (saw). His father died before he was born, and his mother died when he was six years old. Consequently, he was deprived of whatever training and upbringing an Arab child of that time received. During his childhood, he tended flocks of sheep and goats with other Bedouin boys. As education never touched him, he remained completely �illiterate� and �unschooled�.

Most importantly, one need to wonder that the Arab at that time consider poems and literature as a sign of knowledgeable people those who can read and write and they have Arabic language art as the most valuable arts they have, so they have many conferences during the year for literature ...And so, the Miracle is although he is not known to read or write before he came to them with the Quran and challenge them if they can make one verse like it .. and so the unlettered Prophet spoke with a learning and wisdom that no one had displayed before and none could show after him.

Allah knows best

wassalam

George wrote: bmzsp wrote: George, To cut a long story short, let me make it very simple for you. Translating word for word has not gotten you any where so far. Let me put this way first: 1.Gabriel appears to Muhammad like he appeared to so many before. 2. He must have greeted and introduced himself and then told him the purpose of his coming. 3. He did not bring along any book with him so the question of asking Muhammad to read from the book does not arise. 4. Muhammad, likewise, did not have a notebook, a feather nib and ink with him also, so the question of writing does not arise. 5. What could the word Iqra mean then? 6. Muhammad could not recite anything of his own or on his own. The simple meaning is that Gabriel said, "Repeat after me what I say or just say the words that I recite." An example of this can be found in the swearing in ceremony of a President or a Prime Minister, when the Supreme Court Judge recites the oath or reads out to the President or the PM and he/she repeats or recites or reads or follows or says what he/she is told.   I can safely say that the President or the PM read the oath or recited the oath or repeated the oath after the Supreme Court Judge or Justice. Hope you have understood this time. You cannot understand Semitic and Oriental languages well in and with the help of  English or Greek. Please remember that.   The story does not say that Gabriel introduced himself to Muhammad.  As the story goes Muhammad did not know who was speaking to him.  This is clearly spelled out in the Hadith.   "Muhammad (s) was terrified by the whole experience of the revelation and fled the cave of Mt. Hira [Qur'an 81:19-29]. When he reached his home, tired and frightened, he asked his wife: �cover me, cover me,� in a blanket. After his awe had somewhat abated, his wife Khadijah asked him about the reason of his great anxiety and fear. She then assured him by saying: "Allah (The One God) will not let you down because you are kind to relatives, you speak only the truth, you help the poor, the orphan and the needy, and you are an honest man. Khadijah then consulted with her cousin Waraqa who was an old, saintly man possessing knowledge of previous revelations and scriptures. Waraqa confirmed to her that the visitor was none other than the Angel Gabriel who had come to Moses. He then added that Muhammad is the expected Prophet. Khadijah accepted the revelation as truth and was the first person to accept Islam. She supported her hu sband in every hardship, most notably during the three-year �boycott� of the Prophet�s clan by the pagan Quraish. She died at the age of sixty-five in the month of Ramadan soon after the lifting of the boycott in 620 CE." Source:  http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/muhammad.html - http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/muhammad.html Notice that it was Waraqa who said that it was Gabriel and also notice that it was Waraqa who said that Muhammad was a prophet like Moses.

And what?

George wrote: Since about 75-80% of Muslims cannot read or understand the Arabic language then they are in the same boat that I am in.  Surely, you aren't suggesting that the Qur'an cannot properly be translated into other languages with the meaning of the Arabic words in tack, are you?

As a gentile Christian, you have been raised and taught that reading a scritpure in a language not of the original is as good as the orignial language. It was Christians who wanted to push for the King James version to be the offical bible in the English language. Given the context of a scripture, and the loss of meaning when translating any language into another langauge, especially two langauges that have nothing in common, it is a matter of limitation that prevents someone from tranlating a verse perfectly.

George wrote:   One does not need to be able to read in order to repeat words after someone else. If Muhammad was asked to read and he said he couldn't read, that is fine if the angel asked him to read some text, but according to you, he didn't have any text.  Using your logic then Muhammad should have said, "I do not know how to recite" and not "I do not know how to read."  In other words, Muhammad's response does not match what he was asked to do.

I notice you bring up similar issues commonly pushed with detractors such as Sam Shamoun, and common minor points engendered from events that can be twisted by reductionist type questioning such that the event has been dissected into the realm of ambiguity. Hack polemicists like Sam Shamoun and his friends then use this artifically induced realm of ambiguity to hurl conclusions that simply do not follow from their questions. I am not accusing you of copying him, I am just pointing out the seeming similiarity. If you are asking questions becuase you have honestly studied the material, then my hat is off to you.

Case for Read and the Prophet is able to scribble charcters for the purpose of business and reading limited to basic recognition of this limited writing ability: Gd is not dependent upon a man writing words on a piece paper in order for the man to read the material Gd is wanting read. Being able to scribble a few characters that make up a name, initals, or a mark of representation does not allow him to put forth the work one finds in the Quran, no more than a man who can balance his check book could solve Fermat's last theorem.

Case for Read and the Prophet was unable to write or read anything: Recognizing symbols or characters and converting them to meaning has a first cause from Gd as everything esle does. Gd is not dependent upon the education of a man for him to be able to read something the He requests.

Case for recite and the Prophet could understand crude charcters and limited writings: Oral societies communicate with language and transmit it through orally expresive means, the langugae carries a meaning without it having been written on paper. The Prophet would then have "recited" the information given to him without having to know how to read and still have understanding of the meaning of what he was reciting. Being uneducated does not mean being incapable of communicating in one's native tongue.

Reciting can mean both "proper reading of the Quran according to the rules of tajwid and understanding what you recite", or "proper reading of the Quran in terms of tajwid and having not idea of what is begin recited", or "proper reading of the Quran according to the rules of tajwid and having some understanding of what is being recited".  

George wrote:   Beyond all of this I would think that Muhammad would have know how to read and write because of the business he was in.  His wife had a business and Muhammad was a part of it.  He would have had to know some basics in reading and writing.

Refer to the Fermat analogy.

George wrote: The article I cited above says: "Under the guardianship of Abu Talib, Muhammad (s) began to earn a living as a businessman and a trader. At the age of twelve, he accompanied Abu Talib with a merchant caravan as far as Bostra in Syria. Muhammad was popularly known as �al-Ameen� for his unimpeachable character by the Makkans and visitors alike. The title Al-Ameen means the Honest, the Reliable and the Trustworthy, and it signified the highest standard of moral and public life. Upon hearing of Muhammad�s impressive credentials, Khadijah, a rich merchant widow, asked Muhammad (s) to take some merchandise for trade to Syria." Also I would think that Khadijah would have had to know how to read and write and would have taught her husband the basics.  I don't understand this story.  It doesn't make sense to me.

Refer to the Fermat analogy. Keep in mind that there are various degrees of illiteracy, and you are trying to force the common detractors interpretation based upon assumption while ignoring the other possibilities. 

Peace

fredifreeloader wrote: of course muhammad could read and write. see sahih bukhari vol7book62no.88 - he wrote the marriage contract with aisha.  also - vol1book3no.114 - "i shall write for you a statement".  also vol5book59no.717 - "come near, i will write for you something after which you will not go astray" ------also vol4book53no.393 - he wants a bone of scapula to write on

You are trying to force an interpretation of "illiteracy" in terms of the degree of illiteracy of the Prophet (saw) and you are trying to force an assumption that his degree of illiteracy was static.

I am sure you can balance your check book, but that does not mean you are capable of solving Fermat's last theorem. If someone solved it and was "math illiterate", this seemingly "miraculous"  feat would not change from being almost "miraculous" if the man could balance his check book. The claim would change if we find that the man had a PHD in mthematics and was a student of a great mathematician.

Peace

Assalamu Alaikum:

I have met women from Afghanistan who were illiterate, yet when asked they can write their signature, or mark, which is necessary for a marriage contract.

How many times have you heard, "make your mark here"?

In the instances of the Hadith you site, the Prophet(PBUH) was sending letters to the leaders of neighboring countries, getting married, etc... all that would have been sufficient would have been His mark, or signature.  The Hadiths do not state that the Prophet(PBUH) wrote a manuscript or novel.

Above all, the Hadith are the actions or statements of the Prophet(PBUH) written by men. The Hadith are not the Word of God: The Quran. If there is a discrepency between a Hadith and what is stated in the Quran, the Quran will take precedence. Always.

George,

Have you answered my following question or not yet? I am waiting.

"Question time now:

A very important question and answer it very carefully, please: Did Jesus know how to write?"  

Please let me know as soon as possible.

bmzsp wrote: A very important question and answer it very carefully, please: Did Jesus know how to write?"   Please let me know as soon as possible.

We know that Jesus wrote in the dirt during the stoning incident.  We know that Jesus could read because he read the Scriptures out loud from the scrolls.

We also know that Jesus helped Joseph in the family business, so I would say that there is a good chance that Jesus could write.

George,

Thanks for saying: "We know that Jesus wrote in the dirt during the stoning incident.  We know that Jesus could read because he read the Scriptures out loud from the scrolls.

We also know that Jesus helped Joseph in the family business, so I would say that there is a good chance that Jesus could write."

Has anyone got a small little piece or even an inch-square papyrus of Jesus' own wriitng? Were there any scribes with Jesus when he was delivering sermons and speeches?

I am really shocked that none of his loving disciples or followers kept a piece of any writing done by him. I thought James might have kept some writings of his dear brother.

Thanks

bmzsp wrote: George, Thanks for saying: "We know that Jesus wrote in the dirt during the stoning incident.  We know that Jesus could read because he read the Scriptures out loud from the scrolls. We also know that Jesus helped Joseph in the family business, so I would say that there is a good chance that Jesus could write." Has anyone got a small little piece or even an inch-square papyrus of Jesus' own wriitng? Were there any scribes with Jesus when he was delivering sermons and speeches? I am really shocked that none of his loving disciples or followers kept a piece of any writing done by him. I thought James might have kept some writings of his dear brother. Thanks

We don't know that they didn't keep little scraps of whatever Jesus wrote or if he wrote.  They would be long gone by now.

I am really shocked that the Muslims didn't keep any scraps of what Muhammad wrote; even if it was an X.  I am also shocked that the Qur'an that his daughter used was destroyed.

The world is full of shocking thing. LOL

BMZ:

You posted:

Did Gabriel ask the Prophet of Islam to read or recite when Gabriel first encountered Muhammad in the cave?

It's just not your day, George!

You wrote: "I don't understand what all the fuss is about.  What difference does it make whether Muhammad could read or write or not?"

You started the thread, George!

And my response is:  Yes, I started the thread and I am asking another related question.

I am having a great day!!!

"I am really shocked that the Muslims didn't keep any scraps of what Muhammad wrote; even if it was an X.  I am also shocked that the Qur'an that his daughter used was destroyed."

There you get the answer. He did not even know how to write an X.

I am also very shocked to hear that: "the Qur'aan that his daughter used was destroyed."  Her "Qur'aan" was her living father, the Prophet.  There was no compiled Qur'aan in the form of a book when she was alive.  She died within six months after her father's death. I think she was only 19 when she passed away.

George,

From George: I was speaking of Hafsa's Qur'anic documents, whether daughter, wife or whomever.

You should get the facts right before you write. You are now speaking of Hafsa. Writing "whether daughter, wife or whomever" is not in a good taste.

bmzsp wrote: George, From George: I was speaking of Hafsa's Qur'anic documents, whether daughter, wife or whomever.   You should get the facts right before you write. You are now speaking of Hafsa. Writing "whether daughter, wife or whomever" is not in a good taste.

If I have offended you, then I apologize, but at least you know now what I am referring to.  :)

Thanks, George.  

Good Night

BMZ

Assalamu Alaikum:

The Prophet(PBUH) put his mark on the letters by using a wax and his ring, which was engraved: Mohammed Messenger of Allah. The letters he sent were written at his behest, not by him.

The Quran states quite clearly that the Prophet was unlettered. At least he was alive at the time and able to dictate what should be written to his companions and the people around him, so that years after his death things would not be written that take on mystical proportions and turn him into something he was not....

Wa Alaikum Assalaam, Mishmish.

That is correct and people should understand that easily.

BR

BMZ

Cyril,

Greetings & Welcome!

Yes, you are right. It also means those people who were not given a book or those who had not received any revelations or scriptures from God Almighty before.

The Prophet, the Meccans and Arabs were thus Ummees. This time, the message and revelations were not given to those who already had the books but they were given to an entirely new people who received them for the first time and have since faithfully kept it intact.

Best Reagrds & Salaams

BMZ

Mishmish wrote: Assalamu Alaikum: The Prophet(PBUH) put his mark on the letters by using a wax and his ring, which was engraved: Mohammed Messenger of Allah. The letters he sent were written at his behest, not by him. The Quran states quite clearly that the Prophet was unlettered. At least he was alive at the time and able to dictate what should be written to his companions and the people around him, so that years after his death things would not be written that take on mystical proportions and turn him into something he was not....

Mishmish,

This is the first time I've heard of the ring.  Do you know if any of the documents that have the imprint of Muhammad's ring still exist?

Cyril wrote: The word "ummiyy" which is used in the Quran to mean unlettered also means "who has not received a Scriptures from God". Some scholars believe the second meaning is the right one in the Quran. At the time of the Prophet Arabs used a very clumsy system of writing which was difficult to read. Besides they did not have paper and pens as we have. So the art of reading and writing was taken up by scribes. No important or affluent person would write by himself but would have secretaries do it.

Cyril, I think the explanation of the meaning of the word ummiyy makes the most sense. It doesn't necessarily mean that Muhammad was illiterate.  I have read that a common interpretation of the expression an-nabiyyal-ummi is "the Gentile Prophet." 

Another thing that bothers me about this story is the reaction of Muhammad when encountered by the angel.  He is severely afraid and distressed.

When I compare his encounter with Mary and Joseph's encounter with Gabriel I see a distinct difference.  They are not afraid.

fredifreeloader wrote: of course muhammad could read and write. see sahih bukhari vol7book62no.88 - he wrote the marriage contract with aisha.  also - vol1book3no.114 - "i shall write for you a statement".  also vol5book59no.717 - "come near, i will write for you something after which you will not go astray" ------also vol4book53no.393 - he wants a bone of scapula to write on

Bismillah,

As brother Bmz pointed out here, many languages are differently structured, so we have to think of what the speakers of this particular language intended rather than try to do word-for-word translations and get the incorrect meanings from proceeding in that course.

These quotes refer to a way of speech that denotes many things.  For example, the marriage contract of an illiterate man's daughter is signed in reality.  Then the dad will say:  Katabna alkitab, meaning literally:  We wrote the contract, but in actuality since everyone around him knows he is illiterate it means:  We executed the marriage contract and someone else wrote it down.

George,

From you:"Another thing that bothers me about this story is the reaction of Muhammad when encountered by the angel.  He is severely afraid and distressed.

When I compare his encounter with Mary and Joseph's encounter with Gabriel I see a distinct difference.  They are not afraid."

Grieve and worry not, George. Forget the story. There are plenty of stories floating around. Here is what God Almighty says in Qur'aan, Surah 53 Al-Najm Verses 1-17(Just a very, very simple translation for you):

"When the star sets. Neither your fellow-man thought something was wrong nor was he deluded. And he does not just speak out on his own. He speaks only what has been revealed to him. Taught by the mighty knowledgeable Gabriel, an angel full of power, who showed himself to him by appearing over the higher part of horizon and came nearer and nearer till he was very close to him. And then God revealed to his servant what God wished to reveal. His heart did not disbelieve what he saw. Will you then doubt on what he saw? Indeed he saw the angel in his true form a second time at the farthest point of his ascension, near the Garden of promise and saw the Garden Tree covered in splendour and his eyes did not waver nor did they oggle. Truly he saw the greatest signs of his Lord."

What does the above tell me and the Muslims? It tells us that Muhammad was in all senses, his eyes were open and looking. He saw the angel clearly as he came gradually very close to him. Then he saw the greatest signs of the Lord and yet his eyes never faultered for he knew what he was seeing.

After reading the above, you, me and others do not have to believe in stories written by men. Qur'aan clearly tells us that Muhammad never felt sick or delusional, etc.

Hope this helped. I cannot do the tafseer for this as it will run into pages and pages which is true, quote form Qur'aan:

"If all the oceans were ink to write the words of my Lord, the oceans would be consumed as ink before the words of My Lord could complete and not enough, even if more oceans were brought in and added."

Note: fellow-man refers to Muhammad.

George,

From you: "Another thing that bothers me about this story is the reaction of Muhammad when encountered by the angel.  He is severely afraid and distressed.

When I compare his encounter with Mary and Joseph's encounter with Gabriel I see a distinct difference.  They are not afraid."

Here it is, George! Luke 1:29

"Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary,"

For Zechariah, Luke 1:12-13"Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him.......When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah..."

As for Joseph, he saw the angel only in a dream. Please read Mark 1:20 and decide for yourself.

Muhammad is only the one who saw the angel descending and coming to him, face to face. There is no statement in Qur'aan saying, "Don't be afraid, Muhammad", nothing of the sort.

bmzsp wrote: George, From you: "Another thing that bothers me about this story is the reaction of Muhammad when encountered by the angel.  He is severely afraid and distressed. When I compare his encounter with Mary and Joseph's encounter with Gabriel I see a distinct difference.  They are not afraid." Here it is, George! Luke 1:29 "Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary," For Zechariah, Luke 1:12-13"Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him.......When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah..." As for Joseph, he saw the angel only in a dream. Please read Mark 1:20 and decide for yourself. Muhammad is only the one who saw the angel descending and coming to him, face to face. There is no statement in Qur'aan saying, "Don't be afraid, Muhammad", nothing of the sort.

Apples and oranges, BMZ.  Take another look at the Scriptures. 

Jesus' Mother Mary's encounter:

26Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth,  27to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.  28And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."  29But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.  30The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.  31"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.   32"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;  33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."  34Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"  35The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.  36"And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month.  37"For nothing will be impossible with God."  38And Mary said, "Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.

Notice that Mary was perplexed.  Perplexed at what?  At the kind of greeting.  It was the angel who said, "don't be afraid."  The text does not say that Mary was afraid; only puzzled at the greeting.

Zacharias' encounter. 

11And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense.  12Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him.  13But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John.  14"You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth.

Notice that the angel alleviated Zacharias' fears.  

By Muhammad's reaction it leaves one to believe that Gabriel did not identify himself and as the story goes it was Muhammad's wife's cousin who told Muhammad that it was Gabriel.  Muhammad was greatly afraid and apparently as the story goes the angel "pressed" him physically three times.

The stories are completely different, especially the one of Mary.

It doesn't matter if Joseph's visit was a dream. 

George,

I have made my point already. There is no need to bring up clarifications.

George wrote: Another thing that bothers me about this story is the reaction of Muhammad when encountered by the angel.  He is severely afraid and distressed. When I compare his encounter with Mary and Joseph's encounter with Gabriel I see a distinct difference.  They are not afraid.

What is bothering about it?

In one case a divine revelation was being transmitted.

A similar example to this in your bible is in the book of Daniel 10.

George,

From you: "11And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense.  12Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him.  13But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John.  14"You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth.

Notice that the angel alleviated Zacharias' fears."

Yes, I know that the angel alleviated the fears of Mary and Zecharias. They were afraid and scared in the first place.That is why the angel said,"Do not be afraid." They WERE afraid. The fear did grip Zecharias upon seeing the angel come out of the blue and appearing all of a sudden, shocking and frightening him. This is the fact that you cannot deny! 

And please take note that this fear and fright happened with people who were from a people who had the largest visitation by the Angel Gabriel. It should have been no surprise to them and they should not have been afraid.

The Arabs never had any angels visiting them in their entire history. Gabriel was the only one to Visit Muhammad, the only Arab.

bmzsp wrote: George, I have made my point already. There is no need to bring up clarifications.

BMZ, I made my case.  I cited Joseph and Mary as examples and explained them fully.  Their responses were not the same as Muhammad's--not even close.

Muhammad had many contacts with Jews and Christians and he spoke to them about their religon.  Waraqa B. Naufal, his wife's counsin, was a Christian.  I think that your prophet knew about angels.  The point is that the angel did not identify himself and it was Naufal who first suggested that is was Gabriel.

If Gabriel had identified himself to Muhammad, Muhammad would have known who he was, but instead, as the story goes, he did not.  Even having the initial reaction of fear, he should have been comforted knowing that God's angel was speaking to him, but he was not.

Yes, George.

You have made your case but a poor one.

Please read what I quoted and read other versions of the Bible and rest assured that Zecharius and Mary were afraid.

From you: "I think that your prophet knew about angels.  The point is that the angel did not identify himself and it was Naufal who first suggested that is was Gabriel."

You are thinking with what? Before Naufal even knew it, Prophet had already met Gabriel. Naufal is of no great consequence in this discussion.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

George asked in one of previous post what does it matter if Muhammad (saw)  was illiterate and the whole matter some what diffused in jokes, but there are verses in Holy Quran which mention that this was one of the miracles as all His life He could not read and write and at the age of forty He spoke which was more elequent than His fellow arabs who were very famous for their poetry and none of them could response to when Allah swt says in Holy Quran that if you arabs think that Muhammad (saw) made it Himself then all of you join forces and make a little surah like this.

other matter of Muhammad (saw) being fearfull could be his dislike for satanic powers and magic which at that time arabs were involved in,  Maryam and Yahya (as) (Mary and Joan) were both brought up by Joan's father Zakaria (as) who was a Prophet of Allah so they knew more bout encounters from angels (as). as for Muhammad (saw), He was first Prophet in that line after Ismail (as).

wassalam

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Assalamu alaikum George asked in one of previous post what does it matter if Muhammad (saw)  was illiterate and the whole matter some what diffused in jokes, but there are verses in Holy Quran which mention that this was one of the miracles as all His life He could not read and write and at the age of forty He spoke which was more elequent than His fellow arabs who were very famous for their poetry and none of them could response to when Allah swt says in Holy Quran that if you arabs think that Muhammad (saw) made it Himself then all of you join forces and make a little surah like this. other matter of Muhammad (saw) being fearfull could be his dislike for satanic powers and magic which at that time arabs were involved in,  Maryam and Yahya (as) (Mary and Joan) were both brought up by Joan's father Zakaria (as) who was a Prophet of Allah so they knew more bout encounters from angels (as). as for Muhammad (saw), He was first Prophet in that line after Ismail (as). wassalam

Dear fatima,

Even among Muslims there is a disagreement as to whether Muhammad could read or write.

Also there is a study being done about whether Waraqa supported your prophet.  You can find it here:

Peace

George wrote: Even among Muslims there is a disagreement as to whether Muhammad could read or write. Also there is a study being done about whether Waraqa supported your prophet.  You can find it here:     Peace

As mentioned in my previous post, whether he was illiterate or unlettered, or in some arguement, he can read or write; all agreed to one fact that he was not able to produce the words that we now have in the Quran....(and thats the real message and how unfortunate that some eyes are blind to this and prefer to argue about whether he can write or read)...PERIOD - accept the fact that the prophet was unschooled to produce such a manuscript in pure Arabic i.e not in armaic or Hebrew.

With regards to Waraqah; here something to read....

Muhummad�s (pbuh) contacts with the Jewish and Christian scholars were very limited. The most prominent Christian known to him was an old blind man called Waraqa ibn-Naufal who was a relative of the Prophet�s first wife Khadijah (t). Although of Arab descent, he was a convert to Christianity and was very well versed with the scriptures. The Prophet only met him twice, first when Waraqa was worshipping at the Kaaba (before the Prophetic Mission) and he kissed the Prophet�s forehead affectionately; the second occasion was when the Prophet went to meet Waraqa after receiving the first revelation. Waraqa died three years later and the revelation continued for about 23 years. 

Some interesting fact that I discovered...:
The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad. The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet. The oldest Arabic version of the new Testament was published by Erpenius in 1616 C.E. - about a thousand years after the demise of our Prophet.

Allah knows best
wassalam

Cyril wrote: I am always amazed how some know all the details of Muhammad's life. The longer the time elapsed from the death of a prophet and the more precise his biographies become. All we know about Muhammad is from oral traditions that were put to writing a long time after his death. We do not know the extent of his relations with Jews and Christians. He could have belonged to a group of Hanifs who were able to read and had close contacts with Jews and Christian. He certainly was not the only person attracted by monotheism around.

It is true that the Prophet did have religious discussions with the Jews and Christians but they took place in Madinah more than 13 years after the revelation of the Qur�an had started. The allegation that these Jews and Christians were the source (of the Quran) is perverse, since in these discussions Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) was performing the roles of a teacher and of a preacher while inviting them to embrace Islam and pointing out that they had deviated from their true teachings of Monotheism (Several of these Jews and Christians later embraced Islam)..

Allah knows best
wassalam

Cyril wrote: Ibnuarradi You were not you around with the Prophet in the seventh century. So how do you know that he did not meet such and such a person? He was a trader so he must have met people from different religions.   I did not say that he was necessarily in touch with Jews and Christians, but with Hanifs.   I really do not see what is "perverse" in the Quran being derived from Jewish and Christian teachings and scriptures (among others) as it is what every non-Muslim scholar or ordinary person thinks. One has only to read it.

Name me the Hanifs? Name me the source? Who are they?

Where there is similarities between Quran and the Jewish or Christian scriptures, there are many dissimilarities....if the Quran was derived from the Jews or Christian, the Prophet would have agreed to Jews and Christian and will not be pointing out to them that they had deviated from their true teachings of Monotheism.

Similarities between the scriptures does not necessarily mean that the former has been copied from the latter. In fact it gives evidence that all of them are based on a common third source; all divine revelations came from the same source - the one universal God. No matter what human changes were introduced into some of these Judeo-Christian and other older religious scriptures that had distorted their originality, there are some areas that have remained free from distortion and thus are common to many religions - a message that there is a one true God (and the continuation of the basic message of monotheism and not that the later prophets have plagiarised from the previous prophets). Period!

Allah knows best
wassalam

p.s  If someone copies during an examination he will surely not write in the answer sheet that he has copied from his neighbour or Mr. XYZ. Prophet Muhummad gave due respect and credit to all the previous Prophets. The Qur�an also mentions the various revelations given by God to different prophets.

My response to Cyril

The prophet Muhammad was the unlettered prophet so he could neither read nor write. Being an illiterate man, the prophet Muhammad could neither copy the Torah nor Bible.

God is the author of the original Torah , Bible and Quran so they have some similarities! If God is the author of the books, why  are there some dissimilarities among the books? The original Torah and Bible are indeed the Word of God but their keepers have corrupted them into a lie:

(1)Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death(Deuteronomy 31:25-29 ).The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted.  The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

(2)The entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption!  "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.  (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

 God sends Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His prophet Muhammad to replace the Torah and Bible and Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur�an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Qur�an 15:9].

The Quran is Allah's greatest blessing for you . It is the fulfillment of His promise to Adam and his descendants:

My response to Cyril 'You were not you around with the Prophet in the seventh century.'

And you Cyril were not around with the Prophet Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Ishamel, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad etc so how do you know them? Did you see how Moses splitted the Red Sea? Did you see how Moses beat those magicians?  We Muslims believe in the prophets for they are the prophets of Allah eventhough we were not around with them. Islam tells us that they are the prophets of Allah (God) so we believe in them!

Ibnuarradi and ABrah,

Assalamo Alaikum

I would say that Cyril is right on the point of Hanifs. Hanif or Hanifa means Most Upright, exactly like Abraham who has been called in Qur'aan as "Muslima Hanifa" the most Upright man in the sight of God.

From his early chilhood, Abraham used to reflect and conclude that the sun, the moons, the stars and other idols could not be gods or Gods. Prophet as a young child was similar, a Hanifa.

In that sense and also he must have been in good company of upright men or Hanifs.

I am not addressing other points here but we are always asked why Qur'aan borrowed or copied from the Jews and Christians? 

God's words never change for the Good Lord said, "I never change"!

The message from Adam to Noah and then from Noah to Muhammad has always been the same. Muhammad did not bring any new doctrine or any new fables. That is why the Qur'aan addresses mainly the Jews, the Christians and the idolators.

Who is left out? No one.  

BR & Salaam Alaikum

BMZ

Cyril wrote: Ibnuarradi I did not explain the meaning of Hanif because I expected it was known in a discussion on Islam. Hanifs are pre-Islamic Arabs who were attracted by monotheism or became monotheists without adhering to Judaism or Christianity. It is just a supposition of mine that Muhammad may have been in touch or belonged to a Hanif group, of course until someone proves that he did not meet such people.

I do know the meaning of Hanifs...it is just that I'm so use of asking for one source of belief (I do remember someone here ever mentioned that "...basing faith off of the words of a man who was not there to know is less than convincing....")...nevertheless, that supposition is fair enough if that is coming from you or from those of similar opinion

Cyril wrote: Excuse me but that is not an argument. You can borrow ideas and words and modify them to your liking.

Again, a fair statement....I guess, the same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (Pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament.

Cyril wrote: Allow me to adopt the position of Islam drawing from Judaism and Christianity rather than directly from God. Those two religions being older and being around in Arabia, plain commonsense tells you that they are the origins of Islam. There are also elements from Arabic paganism that have passed into Islam, or folktales from Jewish or Christian legends, so I think it is more logical to stick to a borrowing scenario. That is only my opinion and that of non-religious scholars who study the Quran as an historical document. It is only when a problem cannot be explained by commonsense that an extraordinary solution may be considered.

Point noted, and again that is a fair statement coming from you...I guess such an opinion will make more sense and more convincing if we believe Arabs during the time have never thought to think the way you think

Moving forward, I do believe that the day-to-day life of the Prophet was an open book for all to see. And the fact that the extremely prominent Quraish nobles who followed the Prophet and accepted Islam were wise and intelligent men who would have easily noticed anything suspicious about the way in which the Prophet brought the revelations to them; more so since the Prophetic mission lasted 23 years. Furthermore, it is worth to note that the enemies of the Prophet kept a close watch on him in order to find proof for their claim (that he was a liar or borrow a belief from Jews or Christian, etc)

Anyway, Allah knows best
wassalam

Alaikum salam Br BMZ

Appreciate the explaination....excellent statement and opinion (not to mention ... the approach )

Allah knows best
wassalam

Ibnuarradi,

From you: "Again, a fair statement....I guess, the same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (Pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament."

That is a good rebuttal. Excellent!  Even all the gospel writers copied from the teachings of Judaism and it's Holy Scriptures. It went to the extent that almost the entire Jewish Bible was copied and attached to the New testament.

This was not some just little copying! IT is taking an entire book of others and attach instead of cut, copy and paste.

BR & Salaams

BMZ

Cyril

From you: "I cannot believe you when you say that God's Word never changes. God in the Quran is very similar to God in the Jewish Bible but much different from God in the New Testament."

I guess your original opinion here should stand too unchanged, that the Christians must have "borrow ideas and words and modify them to their liking"... 

From you: "..Giving me some original elements in the Quran, not known at the time, would be a better way to prove your point..."

As I had stated earlier, there are many original elements in Quran, but when discussing with "people of the books", we are encouraged to start with a common ground...

Nevertheless, I do find it is hard to believe such opinion which you'd mentioned wasn't raised to the Prophet during his time....I guess from you it has to take a few hundreds years later for one to reach a conclusion that he "could have copied it"

We do offer a more logical conclusion...and trust that it was accepted from during the time of occurance (by the wise men of that era) and up to now (by the wise men of this era) - that the Quran comes from same source containing the same key message...

Allah knows best
wassalam

Thanks for the comments, Cyril.

Judaism 1,500 years B.C., Jesus 0001, Christianity 365 to 450 A.D. and Islam 680 A.D. With that in mind, Islam was the most modern of them all.

But we can't compare Islam with those of the most modern times. Period.

In terms of God's words, whether it was in the 7th Century or the First Century or a thousand Centuries before in Noah's times, the message and Commandments were the same.

For the Jews, Jesus and Muhammad are both like David Koraish. Neither I can do anything about it nor can you. But you got to give it to Muhammad for he stands out among the crowd.

Let us look at the commonality of God's message given to Moses:

"Thou shall love only thy Lord the God with all your heart, mind and soul."

Now, that is the key message repeated by Jesus himself and Muhammad.

Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhamamd were the Hanifs and that is why God chose them.

Best Regards

BMZ

"When you study religions you realize that religious ideas do not fall from heaven but are reinterpretations or borrowings of already existing religions."

I would hope that if you believe in God, you believe that religious ideas originate with the Word of God. Not the word of man.

Cyril wrote: Ibnuarradi Christians did not borrow anything from Judaism because they were originally Jews. You do not borrow from your own religion. What they did was to interpret verses from the Old Testament, that is the Jewish Bible, to corroborate their belief in the incarnation of God as Jesus.

Hmm...it seems we somehow don't have a common agreement in the meaning of "borrowing"....
 
There are similarities between the religions....But similarity between any two compositions or books does not in itself constitute sufficient evidence that one was copied from the other, or the latter from the earlier one. Both could be based on a common third source. (This is precisely the argument of the Quran.)

Anyway, there is a site that discuss a lot in details concerning this "Borrowing theory":
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Bibindex.html - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Bibindex.html

I extract some paragraphs from that site which I believe good to ask oneself when one consider this theory:

1. Why is it in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad(P)'s life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, that it was not possible to discover the mysterious teacher(s) through whom Muhammad(P) might have learned all that?

2. It is known that Muhammad(P) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly 13 years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad(P)'s claim of revelation was sheer fabrication? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name the person whom they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings? Even some of his adversaries who had made this assertion, changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or being possessed by evil... etc.

3. Muhammad(P) was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterises tribal life in the desert. How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit ?

4. What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad(P) a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings?

5. How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?

6. It is known that some of the Qur'�nic revelations to Muhammad(P) in the presence of people. The Qur'�n was revealed over the span of 23 years, where then that was mysterious, perhaps invisible teacher of Muhammad(P)? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad(P) who was constantly surrounded by companions, how was he able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher or teachers for 23 years without even being caught once?

The answer to all these questions are never given. But the Christian missionaries' logic is that still Muhammad(P) borrowed from the Judeo-Christian sources even though there is no evidence to show. What you do not know, you do not have to show; just say it and it becomes so.

Allah knows best
wassalam

It had been suggested by many early Western scholars of Islam that Jewish acquaintances of Muhammad were the reason behind a number of stories contained in the Qur'an. Perhaps the most common Jewish source that figures in the alleged borrowing is the 'midrashic commentary' Pirke de-Rabbi Eli`ezer.

The following site discuss in details of this topic:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBpirke.html - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBpirke.html

An interesting extract from this site:..

"..According to Geiger, Tisdall and others, Muhammad "composed" various accounts found in the Qur'an using a source that had not yet been compiled until hundreds of years after his death!.."

Allah knows best
wassalam