George,

I knew it, I knew it, I knew it! I knew that this was coming from you sooner or later and it did.

From you and I have edited your post for brevity:

"Please take a look at this verse from the Qur'an:

009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!"

Okay, we know that Qur'aan says that and that is very true.  

Then you wrote, George: "I can find no evidence that the Jews ever called Uzair a son of Allah, not from Christian sources and not from Jewish sources.  I contacted a Jewish scholar and he said the same thing."

George, Qur'aan had covered the mainland Jews very well. It had also covered the Christians very well. Of course the main stream Christians had already ascribed Jesus a son of God, which Qur'aan rejects flatly.

Of course, you can find no evidence because you are looking at the Jews of the then Israel. Besides the Jews and Christians of other lands, there were Jews and Christians who were also living in Eritrea, Ethiopia and Yemen.

The revelations to Muhammad did not just cover reports from abroad.

Sometimes, people would ask him teasing questions like the Jews did with the Master, I mean Jesus. When they asked, he would be silent as he did not know the answer. All of a sudden he would start receiving revelations asking him to tell and give the answer to the questionners.

Now there were Jews from Yemen who used to say that Ezra (Uzair) was the son of God. They believed so and that is when the vesre was revealed to tell them that God had no son, neither Uzair nor Jesus was the son of God. I don't think your scholar even knows that there were Jews in Yemen who believed that Ezra was the son of God.

"There is historical evidence that Jews did refer to Ezra as the son of Allah: the Encyclopaedia Judaica states, "H. Z. Hirschberg proposed another assumption, based on the words of Ibn Hazm, namely, that the 'righteous who live in Yemen believed that 'Uzayr was indeed the son of Allah.' According to other Muslim sources, there were some Yemenite Jews who had converted to Islam who believed that Ezra was the messiah. For Muhammad, Ezra, the apostle of messiah, can be seen in the same light as the Christian saw Jesus, the messiah, the son of Allah." Encyclopaedia Judaica, Ibid., p. 1108."

George, you asked: "

Can anyone explain why Allah said:  "Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!"

Can anyone explain?"

Yes, I can. God used to curse, The children of Israel were always cursed by God and various prophets, a large number of curses also came from Jesus, which you can easily read in the Bible. You know "Woe to him and woe to them, the brood of vipers and so on."

In other words, since they were defaming and blaspheming the Lord God Almighty by saying that he had taken a son, in this case two sons, one Uzair and the other Jesus; God Almighty cursed them for telling a lie. After all God Almighty is the GOD and can do anything.

Hope this helped.

George wrote: Please take a look at this verse from the Qur'an: 009.030 YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! I can find no evidence that the Jews ever called Uzair a son of Allah, not from Christian sources and not from Jewish sources.  I contacted a Jewish scholar and he said the same thing.

Hi George.

The problem is that you are assuming that the standardized form of 21st Rabbinical Jewry has been a singular, "monolithic" entity for the past 2000 years. The fact is, there was no centralized Jewish system for centuries after the fall of the second temple, and what did exist was comunites of diaspora Jews spread out across very different regions and cultures. The Jews the Quran was referring to were the community, or one of the groups in the comunity, within the sphere of the early Muslims.  

George wrote: Can anyone explain why Allah said:  "Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" Can anyone explain? Thank you.

Sure: Gd gives a path. The path is altered. Gd now puts forth punishment.  

George,

You are looking at the wrong encyclopedia.  The links are not important. What is important is common sense.

The point is that the entire Arabia, Yemen, Eretria, Somalia, Oman and even ancient India also had Jews besides the Jews of Judea and their practices and customs varied.

As I said earlier, the Jews of Arabia and the region next, did say that Uzair (Ezra) was the son or Son of God and they were told through Qur'aan that neither Uzair nor Jesus were the Sons or sons of Allah.

back to your quote: "How can they have been defaming and blaspheming God when God in the Hebrew Scriptures claims to have many sons in the figurative sense?"

Okay, name all the names of many sons that God had according to Hebrew Scriptures in the figurative sense, please.

George,

Looks like you took out some kind of frustration expressing in a very crude manner the following:

From you, George: "I am guessing that Allah is cursing these "Jews" because he believes that the Jews are saying that Allah had sex with Ezra's mother and produced the "son of God" Ezra.  I don't know what else it could be."

Allah or Yahweh or Yahuweh or I Am did not have any sex with Isaiah's wife or Zechariah's wife or Ezra's mother or the mother of Jesus, Mary. Neither did "God Jesus" had sex with his own mother.

That was uncalled for and was in extremely poor taste.

Allah, the God Almighty, the Yahweh, the Father, the I AM and The First & the Last is cursing both the Jews and Christians for assigning Sons to God, whose name in Arabic is Allah, for the simple reason that Allah the God is not a human and does not beget and did not beget any sons, even figuratively and does not need one.

God Almighty is The Most High and the Lowest cannot be ascribed to God Almighty as sons.

Muslims do not believe that Allah, God Almighty, Yahweh had any sex with women. To suggest sex is the biggest blasphemy of them all, against God Almighty Allah, also known as Yahweh.

Can you think of a term better than "Begat" or "Begotten"? It is not really proper to use that. 

John 1:12:    "BUT AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME (JESUS)."

This is a well-known vs. from the NT Gospel of John.  It was written many years before Islam came on the scene to disclaim Christian doctrine.  Christians enter into a sonship relationship with God through Christ.  Muslims know nothing of this kind of relationship, since Allah is so far above humanity and creation that he is not a Father to man, nor can he be.

Jesus, the Word, was born into the world and lived on earth as the "only-begotten" Son of God.  This means, that the Holy Spirit overshadowed the Blessed Virgin, and caused to grow within her womb (without any sexual act), an ovum which became the human nature of the Divine Word.  Joined together, the Divine Nature and the Human Nature, were one in Christ as He walked the earth. 

Only pagans and fools could believe that Christianity teaches that God the Father was the sexual partner of Mary.  Muslims have misunderstood this since the beginning of their religion, and continue to either misunderstand or pointedly misrepresent this doctrine to this very day.

** unedifying post, self-edited **

To BMZ,

George wrote: No, BMZ, I looked into the same encyclopedia that you cited.  The Jews never claimed that Ezra was a son of God and then I gave you another source confirming that fact.   But even if some Jews said this the Arabic in Surah 9:30 does not support "some."  It clearly says the Jews, meaning all of them.  Allah would have specified which Jews said this and not put a curse on all Jews. Waqalati (they say) alyahoodu (The Jews) AAuzayrun (Ezra) ibnu (son of) Allahi (Allah) waqalati (they say) alnnasara (the Christians) almaseehu (the messiah) ibnu (son of) Allahi (Allah) Yusuf Ali translates this as:  There are some of the Jews who say, `Ezra is the son of Allah,' while the Christians say, `The Messiah is the son of Allah.' ... Even someone with a very rudimentary knowledge of Arabic can see that the definite article is used to designate both THE Jews, alyahoodu and THE Christians, alnnassara. So to translate 'alyahoodu' as 'some of the Jews' and 'alnnasara' as THE Christians is a travesty of the original Arabic. I have this from two people who know Arabic; it is the native language of one of them who reads the Qur'an and the Bible in Arabic. [QUOTE-BMZ] Okay, name all the names of many sons that God had according to Hebrew Scriptures in the figurative sense, please.

Psalm 2: 7. I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.  [God is speaking of David.]

Exodus 4:22

22. And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'So said the Lord, "My firstborn son is Israel." '

23. So I say to you, 'Send out My son so that he will worship Me, but if you refuse to send him out, behold, I am going to slay your firstborn son.' "

Hosea 11:1. For, when Israel was young, I loved him, and from Egypt I called My son.

There are many different meanings of the word "son."  It can refer to literal offspring as well as to metaphorical offspring.  Another meaning of "son" has to do with those who belong to the same class of being.  Thus the angels are called benei 'elohim, "sons of God.," meaning those who share in the qualities of 'elohim: partaking of heavenly, spirit nature as opposed to the earthly, flesh nature of humans.

Angels, kings and the nations of Israel could be called "sons of God."  In the Hebrew Scriptures, it seems that God had many sons.  And Israel was even call his "firstborn."

I am guessing that Allah is cursing these "Jews" because he believes that the Jews are saying that Allah had sex with Ezra's mother and produced the "son of God" Ezra.  I don't know what else it could be. 

Peace

[/QUOTE]

BMZ,

You asked for son of God quotes from the Hebrew Scriptures.  You got them.  Do you see that the Hebrew Scriptures contradict the Qur'an?

Why does Allah say he has no sons while YHVH says that he does?  What was Allah's problem with the Jews and Ezra?  Why do a few translations of the Qur'an say "some of the Jews" and most say "the Jews" when the Arabic will not allow "some?"

Peace

George,

Your question: Why does Allah say he has no sons while YHVH says that he does? 

Did YHVH beget all of them? It is the people who said that George, the language of men, not the language of YHVH.

What was Allah's problem with the Jews and Ezra?

Same as that of YHVH, when YHVH declared openly in Isaiah that there was no other besides YHVH and you know well YHVH was very jealous. YHVH never wanted anyone to be associated with him.

Why do a few translations of the Qur'an say "some of the Jews" and most say "the Jews" when the Arabic will not allow "some?"

Please quote me the verses and I will translate them right here for you. There is no such thing that Arabic does not allow. It all depends on the choice of words and the knowledge of English of any translator.

I will give you an example here in Arabic and English:

"WA QAA-LA-TIL YAHUDO" MEANS "And the Jews said" 

Please quote me and I will explain.

Yusuf Ali translates this as:  There are some of the Jews who say, `Ezra is the son of Allah,' while the Christians say, `The Messiah is the son of Allah.' ...

so yusuf ali has lied.  i always did suspect that guy as not being quite pukka....

Just out of curiosity, and perhaps to make a point, what do Jewish sources say about the reported pre-Islamic massacre of �the� Christians of Najran (Yemen) by the Jewish King, Dhu Nuwas (515-525 CE), other than that Arabs (including, in this case, Christians) offer contradictory, conflated and thus exaggerated reports?  Where are the records of the exclusively Jewish historians, especially those of the Yemeni region, of this incident with which to compare to the Christian?  If I am not mistaken, and Muslims will kindly correct me if I am wrong, some Islamic commentators suggest that, although the phrasing is general, it could be to this and similar massacres of the �believers� that the Quran solemnly refers in Surah 85. 

At any rate, this, from Dr. James Allan Evans, Professor Emeritus of Classics from the University of British Columbia:

                          �IV.  The Himyarite Affair

Himyar, modern Yemen was an area where Christianity, Judaism and paganism competed for religious allegiance and where Ethiopia, Persia and the eastern Roman Empire competed for political advantage. In October of 523, the Christians were massacred in Najran, the center of Christianity in south Arabia. The author of the massacre was a Jew (or Jewish convert) Dhu Nuwas who had seized power in Himyar, and undertook a campaign against Christianity there [to avenge Christian persecution of his co-religionists in neighboring regions]. The events were to give birth to a rich martyr literature �The multiplicity of traditions make it difficult to discern what actually happened, and the cast of characters have names that vary: Dhu Nuwas is also known as Masruq, and the king of Abyssinia whose name in Ethiopic was Ela Atzheba is known as Elesboas � and sometimes as Kaleb which may have been his Christian name. It appears [sic] that a Christian from Najran escaped and brought news of the massacre to Ela Atzheba along with a half-burnt copy of the Gospel. Ela Atzheba had troops with which to intervene but no ship transports; he got in touch with Justin through the patriarch of Alexandria, Timothy III. It should be noted that both Ela Atzheba and Timothy were Monophysite Christians whereas Justin was a devout Chalcedonian, but where the interests of Christianity outside the borders of the empire were concerned, theological differences did not matter. Justin mustered transport ships for the Ethiopian army. In two campaigns Ela Atzheba took the Himyarite capital, killed Dhu Nuwas and set up a Christian king as an Ethiopian client. One tradition had it that Dhu Nuwas, facing defeat, rode his horse into the sea and was never seen again. The situation in Yemen, however, remained volatile and in 570-72, after Justinian's death, Persia succeeded in occupying it.�

Serv

Ref:  http://www.roman-emperors.org/justin.htm - http://www.roman-emperors.org/justin.htm

Fredi,

From you:"

Yusuf Ali translates this as:  There are some of the Jews who say, `Ezra is the son of Allah,' while the Christians say, `The Messiah is the son of Allah.' ...

so yusuf ali has lied.  i always did suspect that guy as not being quite pukka...."

Yusuf Ali did not really lie. As I explained in an earlier post that there were different brands of Jews in the region East of the Jordan and they could have different views from the main stream Jews West of Jordan but the the Jews in Judea were all rebellious in their beliefs.

In that sense the translation can be accepted.

How come you know the word "pukka"?  Then you must also be knowing Kutch-cha!

Hi Servie,

From you: "If I am not mistaken, and Muslims will kindly correct me if I am wrong, some Islamic commentators suggest that, although the phrasing is general, it could be to this and similar massacres of the �believers� that the Quran solemnly refers in Surah 85."

Absolutely brilliant observation and you rightly pointed Surah 85 out. So far, many Muslims have not brought up what you just did.  

Surah 85 is an early Meccan Surah where the messages were given to Muhammad in the form of poetry, because there were too many poets praising their rich Arabs. When Muhammad came out with that dazzling poetry, short reminders and queries were made via verses shaking , probing and waking up the human hearts and minds down to their souls about injustices committed.

Surah 85 questions why were those innocent people, whose only crime was that they believed in God Almighty, were thrown into furnaces or pits of fire while the persecutors sat there, watched and enjoyed burning alive of innocent.

Yes, that Surah raises the questions for example, on Abraham being thrown into a pit of fire, Nebuchadnezzar's attempt to burn three holy Jews in Daniel, the persecution and killing of the Christians of Nejran by a Jew king of Yemen. 

And please see how V61 of Surah 3 Ale-Imraan beautifully teaches Prophet to settle a dispute by way of both sides praying to and invoking God. Although the Christians of Nejran refused, the Prophet accorded to them their safe return, rights and religious freedom. He did not touch them at all.

The Surah in general reminds us that the believers in God were persecuted, tortured and killed and that was not right.

You are very well-read, friend!

Best Regards

BMZ

Cheers, BMZ, and thank you for corroborating my understanding of the Surah.  I am sure that you will have recognized an emerging leitmotif here, in this thread, on my part.  Still, I will point it out for purposes of general discussion.  Concerning my above and most recent post concerning the alleged massacre of {keyword} �the� Christians by a Jewish king  (avenging the persecution of his co-religionists elsewhere), unless and until I can confirm this, well, reported incident from non-Arab, non-Quranic, and certainly non-Christian sources, I do not accept that it ever happened.  I trust you will understand.

Serv

I forgot to add this, a therapeutic emoticon: 

Serv

George,

I have already done that. It must be somewhere.

From you: "YHVH had "sons" by relationship in the figurative sense.  We are not talking about other Gods besides YHVH."

Would you then accept that Jesus had no real relationship of any kind with God but he was just like a son, figuratively speaking.

Would you then also agree if I say,"God took Jesus as a son in figurative sense only and that Jesus was not really the son of God."

I am also not talking about any other gods besides YHVH, the Lord God Almighty Allah of Noah and Abraham and the Allah of Christian Arabs.  Do you think that the Christian Arabs are praying and worshipping our God Allah?

Just a little note here: When you speak of Yahweh or Yahuweh or YHWH or Haschem, It's only Allah who comes to our minds, nobodyelse.  

BMZ,

I was not meaning to be obscure in my above, most recent post, and I should have said thank you not only for corroborating but also for supplementing my understanding of the Surah.  This is what I should clarify.  When I say that with my reference to the massacre of �the� Christians by Dhu Nuwas a leitmotif is emerging, I might better and more directly have said that I was attempting to mirror, gently and as closely as possible (though no doubt imperfectly), George�s logic as stated above:

�I can find no evidence that the Jews ever called Uzair a son of Allah, not from Christian sources and not from Jewish sources.  I contacted a Jewish scholar and he said the same thing.�

Continuing the theme, I can find no evidence that the Jews ever massacred the Christians from Jewish sources (by implication, Arab, Quranic and {I add} Christian sources are not permitted as evidence).  I contacted a Jewish scholar and he said the same thing.

Maybe this post wasn�t necessary but I thought I should explain. Thanks again.

Your friend,

Hi Servie,

I have not really read that the Jewish King massacred the Christians of Najran although some say that happened.

The verses need not be taken in that context. It simply says that people, who believed in God were persecuted and tortured, while the tortures did enjoy and had their weird fun.

I agree that the Jewish scholar would say the same thing while conveniently forgetting what they did to my dear Jesus.  Luckily God saved him.  

I think you and I are on the same plane of frequency here and I shall collaborate with you and collate some statements on this matter.

BR, Mate

BMZ

It�s kind of you, but not pressing BMZ.  It seems you are heavily involved in other topics and posts and, as far as I am concerned, this is sufficient for now.  Thank you, again.

Best regards,

Serv

BMZ wrote: I have already done that. It must be somewhere.

I don't remember seeing it.  Could you please find it and point me to it?  Thanks.

BMZ wrote: From you: "YHVH had "sons" by relationship in the figurative sense.  We are not talking about other Gods besides YHVH." Would you then accept that Jesus had no real relationship of any kind with God but he was just like a son, figuratively speaking.

Jesus did have a special relationship with God, that of King Messiah, just as David did.  Jesus as Son of God is in the figurative sense; it is certainly not in the literal sense.

BMZ wrote: Would you then also agree if I say,"God took Jesus as a son in figurative sense only and that Jesus was not really the son of God."

Yes, Jesus was the Son of God in the figurative and not the literal sense.  I don't know what you mean, "Jesus was not really the son of God."  I don't understand what you mean.

BMZ wrote: I am also not talking about any other gods besides YHVH, the Lord God Almighty Allah of Noah and Abraham and the Allah of Christian Arabs.  Do you think that the Christian Arabs are praying and worshipping the our God Allah?

The Arabic speaking Christians when they refer to the generic term "Allah" are worshipping YHVH.  They don't think in terms of Islam, but in the terms of the Old and New Testaments.  This is the same of any foreign speaking Christian.  The word God is different in Spanish, German, etc.  Most would tell you that they don't worship the same God that you do.

BMZ wrote: Just a little note here: When you speak of Yahweh or Yahuweh or YHWH or Haschem, It's Allah only who comes to our minds, nobodyelse.

I'm sure it does, but there is more to it, BMZ.  When Christians and Jews worship Yahweh, YHVH, or Ha'Shem, they do not think of the Islamic God Allah.  I'm sure you will agree that "Allah" is not God's personal  name�it simply means God in Arabic.  Also according to my friend who reads the Bible in Arabic does not call Jesus "Isa."  I would have to look up what he calls him.

Peace

George, I never keep track of my posts and do not save them in a file. But that has been done.

From you: "Jesus did have a special relationship with God, that of King Messiah, just as David did.  Jesus as Son of God is in the figurative sense; it is certainly not in the literal sense."

What special relationship David had with God, in your view? was David a King Messiah?

From you:"

Greetings, Servie

Mostly my dear friend George keeps me too busy. I love discussing the Crucifiction.

You take care and have a nice weekend.

BR

BMZ

BMZ,

Am I to guess that you cannot put the Surah about Ezra being the son of God into Arabic and that you cannot translated it into English?

Does your failure to do that indicate that you, too, do not believe that the Arabic allows for the word "some" of the Jews?

Peace