The "lie" word has already been removed from the topic, "Crucifixion of Christ a "lie," . Rules are for everyone, and that user has already been warned and edited many times.

And may I respectfully ask you how many violations you made in your  posts. In spite of that you continue to post without being banned. Good Luck

Peace

Alibaba wrote: I find it quite upsetting that one poster here on the Interfaith site is allowed to make horrendous statements against the United States and the West in general.  I thought that IslamiCity did not allow that type of thing.  Also, he is allowed to call the Crucifixion of Christ a "lie," yet the same word "lie" is censored out of another thread  posted by a Christian.  What actually is going on here?  Do your rules regarding "fairness" and such only apply to Muslims? That appears to be the case. Does this reflect the way "dhimmis" are treated in Muslim lands?  Are Christians to be beaten over their heads by these extremists without being allowed to address their insults?  You really need to revise your guidelines so that Christians and other non-Muslims will be aware of the bias apparent on this board.  I don't think many non-Muslims want to be part of a board that allows anti-American rhetoric - especially in this day and age.

Bismillah,

This is a Muslim site.  According to Muslim theology, there was no crucifixion of Christ, but of a man who Allah made appear to look like him.  For Allah so loved the world that he did not require or accept any human sacrifice to forgive our sins.

Oh, and: No, this site doesn't promote hatred of the West, just acceptance of the truth and respectful dialogue concerning the truth.

her:  I understand that this is a Muslim site, of course, and likewise understand that Muslims believe that someone else was crucified in Jesus' place (contrary to all religious and secular evidence).  Yes, we can debate this issue like cultured and refined people, can we not.  You just made a statement respectfully, and I thank you for it.  However, I would say that the following is simply anti-American hate language:

From Abrah2006's post:

"Was it wrong for the Vietnamese people to kill Americans who invaded Vietnam and massacred millions of innocent Vietnamese people during the Vietnamese War? Have you forgotten how the American troops raped and massacred innocent Vietnamese babies, children,women, elderly people etc during the My Lai Massacre?

Was it wrong for the Korean people to kill Americans who invaded Korea and massacred millions of innocent Korean babies, children, women, elderly people etc during the Korean War?

Is it wrong for the Iraqi people to kill Americans who are invading and plundering Iraq? Is it right for those American troops to torture, rape and murder innocent Iraqi babies, children, women, elderly people etc in Iraq....Don't try to fool me by saying that Bush is liberating Iraq...Bush lie so much so that he and his cronies may invade Iraq...Where are the non-existent WMDs? Nowhere! Hitler used to say that he invaded Europe to liberate Europe! Bush and his allies even imposed economy sanctions onto Iraq that starved millions of Iraqi babies to death!

Is it wrong for the Afghan people to kill Americans who are invading and plundering Afghanistan? Is it right for those American troops to torture, rape and murder innocent Afghan babies, children, women, elderly people etc in Afghanistan?....Don't try to fool me by saying that Bush is liberating Afghanistan...The US forces bomb and bombarded civilian targets killing innocent civilians who don't even know where New York is. Hitler used to say that he invaded Europe to liberate Europe and so does Bush!"

Why do Westerners on this site need to put up with this type of hate speach? This sounds like something out of Al-Qaeda.

"Why do Westerners on this site need to put up with this type of hate speach? This sounds like something out of Al-Qaeda."

Can you check your language? Can you respectfully make your case? Can you respectfully follow guidelines. Yes, this is warning!

Alibaba, you're right, you know.  You have two options.  Remain on this site and realize that you are considered an infidel.  The other option is to leave.  How broad are your shoulders?  How imortant is this to you?  You must learn to be humble and accept the fact that you may speak your mind in the topic concerning "Interfaith", but only up to a point.  If you say anything regarding your own faith which directly disagrees with Islam, you will be reprimanded.  So the very title of that forum is used (imo) for non-Muslims to come with the purpose of discussing various beliefs, expecting mature, honest and respectful dialogue, but it is actually an opportunity for Muslims to attack and insult our various religions.  This IS a Muslim website, so you either obey the rules, or remove yourself.  There are no other options.

God's Peace Alibaba.

Patty

Assalamu Alaikum:

There are non-Muslims who come to the site to learn. They have been here for a long time.

There are others who come here to do otherwise. They are prolysthetizing, trying to bash Islam, or just generally trying to cause trouble.

This is an Islamic site. Why would anyone come here to post their beliefs about Christianity? There are Christian sites for that. Why debate whether your beliefs are right or wrong on a site dedicated to another religion all together? If you cannot accept the fact that Muslims do not hold the same beliefs as you, then why come here and post your beliefs? We are not soliciting them.

Patty, if we edited or deleted or reprimanded every post that disagreed with Islam, none of the recent threads would be on the Interfaith section. We do not believe Jesus is God. We do not believe in the crucifixion. We do not believe the Holy Spirit is God. We do not believe in the trinity. Most of these are not only subjects that we do not believe, but that are blasphemy and shirk to Muslims. Yet, you have been allowed to discuss them.

Posting here is a privilege. If you find it too confining, unfair or "Islamic", you are cordially invited to go elsewhere.

Dear Mishmish,

Can you explain to me the purpose of the Interfaith section?  If we are not really supposed to post what our various churches teach or believe, what are we supposed to post under this topic?  (I'm not meaning to be disrespectful or argumentative, I just really don't understand.)  I realize what our theological differences are.  But what purpose does that topic have?  Please offer me some guidance here.  I thank you.

God's Peace,

Patty

Patty,

The True Furqan, Mary in the Quran, Quran and Crucifixion.... these threads were started to try to discredit Islam by supposedly pointing out mistakes in the Quran.

This is not an interfaith discussion, this is a subtle attack. Not so subtle on some fronts.

AliBaba has accused one of the posters of copying from an anti-Christian site, yet I have found the exact wording of some of his posts on an anti-Islamic site. Anti-Islamic propaganda trying to prove that we believe in a false religion.

Why would we want to continue to allow this type of posting?

I have read your posts on other threads, where you state I am Catholic and this is what we believe, that is fine. You are very polite. But when people are introducing topics just to discredit the HOST religion, then complain when a member of that religion does the same, then even you must see that is not acceptible.

Salaams.

Thank you, Mishmish.

Peace Be With You,

Patty

I think the point is we can say what we believe, but we should not bash or shread what another believes.  I would give anyone the right to post their beliefs on my site, as long as they are respectful of everyone else.  Its bad adab on AbRah's part for his behavior.  But, its just as bad for us to constantly point out the errors.  Instead we should be pointing out why we believe what we do.  Angel started the Jesus God or Not to allow a real debate on the issue.  Christians say yes, Muslims say no.....  However, a post devoted to the issue of errors in the Quran with the sole purpose of proving it wrong?  That's a different story. 

As for the West bashing......eh.....our constitution gives me the right to call the president a jerk...why can't they.  However, it does go too far sometimes.  But, this is a religious site and political views are a personal thing.  They cannot force people to take their moderate view or someones left or right viewpoints. 

We should just instead focus on learning and sharing here.  Instead of causing more arguements.

God Bless,

Angie

�Does this site promote hatred of the West�

Does this site tend to be disproportionately against the Anglo-American Alliance of neo-cons (and their Evangelical lackeys) and �New Labour� conquistadors?  By the way, have I remembered to say �thankfully?�

Serv

Alibaba wrote: her:  I understand that this is a Muslim site, of course, and likewise understand that Muslims believe that someone else was crucified in Jesus' place (contrary to all religious and secular evidence).  Yes, we can debate this issue like cultured and refined people, can we not.  You just made a statement respectfully, and I thank you for it.  However, I would say that the following is simply anti-American hate language:   http://www.islamicity.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=44381&TPN=6 - From Abrah2006's post: "Was it wrong for the Vietnamese people to kill Americans who invaded Vietnam and massacred millions of innocent Vietnamese people during the Vietnamese War? Have you forgotten how the American troops raped and massacred innocent Vietnamese babies, children,women, elderly people etc during the My Lai Massacre? Was it wrong for the Korean people to kill Americans who invaded Korea and massacred millions of innocent Korean babies, children, women, elderly people etc during the Korean War? Is it wrong for the Iraqi people to kill Americans who are invading and plundering Iraq? Is it right for those American troops to torture, rape and murder innocent Iraqi babies, children, women, elderly people etc in Iraq....Don't try to fool me by saying that Bush is liberating Iraq...Bush lie so much so that he and his cronies may invade Iraq...Where are the non-existent WMDs? Nowhere! Hitler used to say that he invaded Europe to liberate Europe! Bush and his allies even imposed economy sanctions onto Iraq that starved millions of Iraqi babies to death! Is it wrong for the Afghan people to kill Americans who are invading and plundering Afghanistan? Is it right for those American troops to torture, rape and murder innocent Afghan babies, children, women, elderly people etc in Afghanistan?....Don't try to fool me by saying that Bush is liberating Afghanistan...The US forces bomb and bombarded civilian targets killing innocent civilians who don't even know where New York is. Hitler used to say that he invaded Europe to liberate Europe and so does Bush!" Why do Westerners on this site need to put up with this type of hate speach? This sounds like something out of Al-Qaeda.

Bismillah,

I have seen anti-Western statements that are completely outrageous on this site, in my opinion.  However, I do not count this statement that you posted as one of them.  Just as revolutionary war heros were called rebels and dissidents by the British, Phalasteenee, Iraqi, Afghani, et cetera freedom fighters are all called terrorists and insurgents by the evil Bush regime and others.

Anti-West statements are those which bash all westerners, and the same for anti-East or anti-Pakistani statements.

Peace

Servetus wrote: �Does this site promote hatred of the West� Does this site tend to be disproportionately against the Anglo-American Alliance of neo-cons (and their Evangelical lackeys) and �New Labour� conquistadors?  By the way, have I remembered to say �thankfully?� Serv

Bismillah,

Yes, thankfully.  I have learned a lot and continue to learn about politics and power playing neo cons (which I still can't quite grasp the full meaning of neo con.)

I would agree with Angela - this is supposed to be a debate of religious doctrines and principles - not another site intended to take shots at the United States (who everybody seems to have no problems taking money from). But I have learned something - it appears from the posts here that many of the Muslims on this site who claim to be residing in the US certainly have a low opinion of that country.  I suggest they get their passports and return to the Middle East or wherever - don't the Yanks have a saying "Love it or Leave it." I quite agree. Other immigrants have gone to America (and some of my own relatives as well), and have contributed to the greatness of that country, defended it's constitutional values, and have benefited greatly from living in the greatest country this world has ever seen. A country, by the way, founded by Christians.

And then there are others who go to America for selfish purposes, who are unable to assimilate, who want to impose their own undemocratic values on the American people.  They are leeches on democracy.  They do the same in Europe.  They use democratic countries which have preserved freedom of speech to spout their illiterate nonsense and revisionist histories.  To say, for instance, that there never was a Holocaust - and that American soldiers pillage and rape.  This is disgusting nonsense - but its you board, so let the whole world see what you allow here.  And, believe me, I'll see to it that they do.

PS:  Then there are those supposedly born in America who detest that great land - well, I suppose you don't detest all the benefits you get.  The welfare programs.  The medical programs.  Shame on you.

Alibaba wrote: I would agree with Angela - this is supposed to be a debate of religious doctrines and principles - not another site intended to take shots at the United States (who everybody seems to have no problems taking money from). But I have learned something - it appears from the posts here that many of the Muslims on this site who claim to be residing in the US certainly have a low opinion of that country.  I suggest they get their passports and return to the Middle East or wherever - don't the Yanks have a saying "Love it or Leave it." I quite agree.

Bismillah,

My family stole land from the Indians years ago.  I have a low opinion of many things, including American foreign and domestic policies.  (As well as Saudi domestic and foreign policies, but that's another story.) 

I'm a real-live American, maybe just like you.  You could find a plane to live where you came from too.

And if that's Ireland or Scotland, Hey, that sounds lovely to me.

Bismillah,

No.  I probably should worry about reimbursing the slaves first, since that's more recent.

Am I defending land stealing?  Not.  I just get really tired of hearing people say:  Go back where you came from when they would if our government hadn't decimated it already.

My husband comes from a little village in Phalasteen.  Oh, can't go there -- they wiped it out years ago -- people, buildings, crops, all of it.

�� But I have learned something - it appears from the posts here that many of the Muslims on this site who claim to be residing in the US certainly have a low opinion of that country.  I suggest they get their passports and return to the Middle East or wherever - don't the Yanks have a saying "Love it or Leave it." I quite agree.�

Wow.  That is remarkable learning on your part, Alibaba.  It sounds rather like political analysis as bumper sticker.

Serv

Alibaba wrote: PS:  Then there are those supposedly born in America who detest that great land - well, I suppose you don't detest all the benefits you get.  The welfare programs.  The medical programs.  Shame on you.

I'm born American and Christian and I dislike the current government.  I dislike the policies of many of the lawmakers.  I speak out against war, prejudice and economic stupidity.  I enjoy these rights given to me by the poor and oppressed who came here and sweated to create this country and continued to come and build this country.  One of the greatest parts of being American is being able to disagree with the establishment.  I can make a change and a difference.  The only ones who don't have a right to complain are those who don't want to do anything to change the system.  Democracy is an interactive system.  If you just sit and complain and do nothing, then its no longer a Democracy.  But, everyone is invited to come here (legally) and bring with them the very things that make us strong.  Diversity and Hope for a better life.

When, in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the Causes which impel them to the Separation.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence indeed, will dictate, that Governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

Alibaba,

There were numerous incidents where women were raped by American soliders and innocent people died.  The war was horrible.  You never knew if the child walking towards you was booby trapped or not.  Vietnam was a nightmare for both the US and Vietnamese.  But I tend to feel more sympathy to the innocents who were killed in the name of stopping the spread of Communism.  I have relatives that served there, including my Mother In Law who was a nurse in Vietnam.  The brutality is horrible.  Its not a lie, however, its a half truth.  The Southern Vietnamese felt betrayed when we pulled out and left them to the Communists. 

Just like the current incident where 12 marines are facing war crimes charges for murdering innocent men, women and children in Iraq.  These are not lies.  However, they are focused on far more than anything positive the US may have done anywhere in the Middle East. 

The only unfortunate part is that both sides cannot be told here, since posting stories about American GIs doing good in those countries was specifically banned by Rami.

Angela, you stated this:

"The only unfortunate part is that both sides cannot be told here, since posting stories about American GIs doing good in those countries was specifically banned by Rami."

WHY?

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

This section will be closely moderated.

1. We manage here an Islamic discussion board, thus all members are requested to maintain the decorum as per the standards of an Islamic cultural society. Any joke, or casual statement which the moderators find insensitive, may result in edition or deletion.

Any post which is considered inflammatory to the muslim community will be deleeted without warning. repeated abuses of the Guidlines will result in the person being banned from the forum.

inflammatory:

1 : tending to excite anger, disorder, or tumult : http://www.webster.com/dictionary/seditious - SEDITIOUS
2 : tending to http://www.webster.com/dictionary/inflame - inflame or excite the senses
3 : accompanied by or tending to cause http://www.webster.com/dictionary/inflammation - inflammation

Example of inflammatory post; A post about the wonderfull work of the US army in Iraq While the entire muslim world views there Presance there as an invasion.

Edited by rami on 12 November 2005 at 1:39am

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2952&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2952& ;PN=1

This is exactly what he wrote and I have seen threads "disappear" that were about Soldiers doing good in Iraq.  I know two Iraqis now. One in Basra and hte other in England. Both are grateful for what the US is doing, even if they fear what will happen if the "freedom fighters" win.

Jenni wrote: Patty I agree with you. some of the soldiers are doing good and trying to help people there. Some of the soldiers hate Muslims though and Arabs. There are good and bad.

Its conditioning and propaganda.  The soldiers are not allowed to view the enemy as humans or they might not fight them.  I've had to deprogram Baby Brother about Muslims and Arabs since his honorable discharge from the US Army.  I'm so glad his Air Assault Unit was not deployed to Afghanistan until after he was discharged.  Thank God for small blessings.

wow, 3 pages in 6/7 hours  I think that must be a world record

Oh Alibaba, America wasn't founded on Christianity but Deism, do a little research

Angel:

"Oh Alibaba, America wasn't founded on Christianity but Deism, do a little research"

Angel, I respectfully offer the following information from the history of America:

Quote from Gov. Winthrop (1600s in Massachusetts):

"For the generality of them--They were the near descendants of the first Reformers in ENGLAND.  They were born of pious parents, who brought them up in a course of strict religion, and under the ministry of the most awakening preachers of those days.  Like so many Timothys, they were from their childhood taught to know the HOLY SCRIPTURES, to reverence them as the inspirations of GOD, as the only rule of faith and piety, and to aim at both a pure Scriptural way of worship, and at the vital power and practice of Godliness: And they continued in the things they had learned and had been assured of, as knowing of whom they had learned them.

In points of doctrine, they entirely held with the Church of ENGLAND, their judgment of orthodoxy being the very same: But they apprehended it to be the sole prerogative of GOD Himself, and a glory that He would not give to another, to appoint the orders of His own house, and the acceptable ways of His own worship: That RELIGION is a free obedience to the known laws of GOD; and it is neither in the power of men or angels, to make that religion which He has not made so Himself: That His own institutions ought not to be set on a level, mixed or debased with the low devices of men; and that it is a plain, full and decisive rule of His own injunction--"To the LAW and to the TESTIMONY; if they speak not according to THIS WORD, it is because there is no light in them."

I think what you are remembering from "The Pond" is that some of the first politicians who signed the Declaration of Independence were deists....however, the common persons immigrating from Europe were devoutly religious, and came here to America fleeing religious persecution. 

(I strongly suspect Alibaba knows the correct history of the founding of America.)

God's Peace Angel.

Patty

Mishmish wrote: Assalamu Alaikum: There are non-Muslims who come to the site to learn. They have been here for a long time. There are others who come here to do otherwise. They are prolysthetizing, trying to bash Islam, or just generally trying to cause trouble. This is an Islamic site. Why would anyone come here to post their beliefs about Christianity? There are Christian sites for that. Why debate whether your beliefs are right or wrong on a site dedicated to another religion all together? If you cannot accept the fact that Muslims do not hold the same beliefs as you, then why come here and post your beliefs? We are not soliciting them. Patty, if we edited or deleted or reprimanded every post that disagreed with Islam, none of the recent threads would be on the Interfaith section. We do not believe Jesus is God. We do not believe in the crucifixion. We do not believe the Holy Spirit is God. We do not believe in the trinity. Most of these are not only subjects that we do not believe, but that are blasphemy and shirk to Muslims. Yet, you have been allowed to discuss them. Posting here is a privilege. If you find it too confining, unfair or "Islamic", you are cordially invited to go elsewhere.

Mishmish,

Everyone knows this is an Islamic cite.  The name gives it away�Islamiccity.  
People come here for a variety of reasons.  My reason is to ask questions about 
Islam and to correct the misunderstandings Muslims have concerning my religion, 
which are plenty.  Surely you don't expect Christians to come here not to defend 
their faith when it is being attacked?  Surely you do not expect Christians not 
to try to correct the misunderstanding of their faith submitted by Muslims?  Is 
it prosthetizing one's religion to correct the Muslim misconceptions of it?

I was impressed by your rules�they sounded fair�and I particularly liked this 
addition:


 
any insulting, derogatory, disrespectfull comments about any faith, prophet, 
holy person or Allah may also result in the person being banned.

I assumed (silly me) that meant that Christians and Muslims were to follow this 
rule.  Yet you allowed the "Crucifixion if a hoax/lie" thread posted by 
AbRah2006 to continue.  His tone and choice of words were very offensive to 
Christians.  It was not until Angela pleaded with the moderators to do something 
and to enforce their rules, that the topic was finally closed.  Why did it take 
Angela's pleas to finally get the moderators to do their job?

Your rule says that you will not allow any insulting, derogatory disrespectful 
comments about Allah, yet you have allowed BMZ's post to remain standing:


 

How can you worship a God who killed his son? I cannot worship such a killer 
God.

This comment is blatant blasphemy against God and yet it has not been censored.  
Why not?  Unless BMZ is implying that Allah is not YHVH.

Muslims are offended by the hard questions and take them as an affront to Islam.  
You must get over it.  Gone are the days when you will not be asked hard 
questions.  The events of 9/11 took care of that.  Many non-Muslims know the 
Qur'an, they have read the Hadiths, they know Islamic history, they read the 
newspapers, they have seen all the violence, they see Muslims killing other 
Muslims, Muslims blowing up Mosques, Muslims blowing up churches, Muslims 
killing former Muslims for leaving Islam, and it goes on and on and on.

I am very disappointed in what I see the bashing of America.  I am an American.  
From what I understand all Muslims consider their Ummah as their "country."  Of 
course America is not perfect and has done some things that I in particular am 
not proud of but neither is the Islamic community (Ummah) perfect and I am sure 
you will agree that Muslims do things that other Muslims are not proud of.  We 
Americans could blast away at some of the atrocities that certain Muslims have 
committed, could we not?  

They did not coin the phrase "war is hell" for no good reason.  My hope is that 
someday all will take the teachings of Jesus Christ and put them into 
practice�solve our conflicts and disagreements at the conference table and not 
on the battlefield.

I participate on three Christian discussion boards and the moderators are very 
strict, especially on one in particular.  They insist that the poster abide by 
the terms of service that they agreed to abide by.  If someone doesn't, they are 
warned�sometimes three times�if they continue to violate the TOS, they are gone.  
Some are so abusive that they are banned after one post.  This goes for all 
posters, Muslims, Christians, Jews and non-believers.


 

Why would anyone come here to post their beliefs about Christianity?

Do they?  What I see is Christians defending their faith.  What is the meaning 
of an interfaith dialog anyway?  Isn't it to discuss what we believe and why we 
believe it in order to promote a better understanding of our faiths?  We don't 
have to agree.  When someone posts a topic that the crucifixion is a lie, 
wouldn't you expect Christians to show Muslims the reason we don't believe it to 
be a lie?  How else are we going to understand each other's beliefs?

There are very few Christians on this board; perhaps it would be better if we 
all left.  Then the Muslims here would be free to talk to each other and say 
whatever they wanted to say against Christianity.  It certainly would lighten up 
the workload of the Moderators�you would no longer need to moderate.  But, of 
course, there would no longer be an interfaith section on this site, would 
there?

The trick in making an interfaith discussion work is for both sides to ask 
questions, not make allegations.

Peace

It is just plain stupidity to say that America was not settled by Christians but by Deists.  Yes, there were deists in the initial Federal government, but any fifth-grader should know that it was religious separatists (from the C of E), called Puritans, and also Pilgrims who first settled in the New England colonies.  Your state of Virginia was settled by C of E and at one time Anglicanism was the state church there, as it is here. The American constitution reflects Christian ideals, and this is one reason that it is the world's longest lasting democracy (not kingdom).  Muslim nations do not have these ideals established in their forms of government, which is why Muslim nations, as a whole, are rather socially and academically backwards (when you have classrooms with maps not showing Israel, you've got to wonder about that kind of academic deception - also, chanting the Quran is certainly not equal to learning grammar and literature).  Freedom creates an atmosphere where individuals can think creatively and reach goals which those in repressive societies cannot.  I think that, on the whole, Islam has created repressive socieities (especially for women - for instance, in Saudi you cannot even drive a car if you are a woman or leave the house without male permission).  I am so thankful that I live in a nation which reflects Christian principles, and I suppose most Americans thank their God daily for the opportunities they have and the blessings of freedom they enjoy as a result of living in a country founded on Christian principles.

Now, take a look at the Muslim nations.  If a Muslim wants to become a Christian - off with their head, or they are proclaimed to be insane.  The lack of intellectual freedom and freedom of religious choice is not part of the Muslim culture.  Little boys in Palestine and in other Muslim nations are taught "hatred" every day in the class room.  Martyrdom means strapping on dynamite and walking into a wedding party and blowing everybody up - that is demonic as far as I'm concerned.  Now, I will admit that most Muslims don't do this - but some do, and they base their acts on the Quran.

As far as American soldiers pillaging and raping - maybe some few did in Viet Nam, but these types of actions were dealt with swiftly by the military authorities.  It does not reflect the acts of 99% of the soldiers who were stationed there.  The South Viet Nam people wept when the allied forces left, and many escaped the oppressive communist regime as they fled in boats.  That's basic history.

Now, if you want oppressive, look at Cambodia where milliions were slaughtered by the Communists there simply because they thought independently, or didn't want to work in the fields.  That's oppression, that makes Hitler look like a humanitarian.  Why aren't Muslims here speaking out against Pot Pol and his thugs?

You see, it's easy to beat up on and trash America and the UK - because they allow you to do it.  Try trashing Saudi Arabia in Mecca and you'll quickly find yourself without a head.

Alibaba wrote: Muslim nations do not have these ideals established in their forms of government, which is why Muslim nations, as a whole, are rather socially and academically backwards.

This is mainly because of the poverty levels in the countries.  If you look back to the Middle Ages the Catholic Church (the only one at the time, not picking on you Patty. )  Jailed Galileo for his forward thinking and burned people at the stakes for daring to translate the Bible into the Vernacular.  Meanwhile, the Muslim countries were endulging in Science, Math, Philosophy and Astronomy. 

Wars have torn that place to bits starting with the European Imperialism of the 1800s and 1900s.  You cannot blame the people who are suffering now because of those events then.

Salem 1692, Hauns Mill, Mississippi 1960s.  Christians have their own incidents of oppression even in a country founded by persecuted Christians.  Frankly, I find it rather arrogant that a Brit is trying to school a bunch of Americans on what our country was founded over. 

I have a family line that's been here since 1662, Gideon La Plante Merlett.  Look him up on the internet.  That is my ancestor.  I have relatives in Revolutionary forces, Civil War and every major conflict.  My family has spilled blood to make this country free.  But we are not so arrogant and uneducated to think it doesn't have flaws.  No government is perfect.

Angela, how interesting that you have a family line going back fairly far in America.  Actually, I'm an American living in Wales.  My family connections are with the Witherspoons of Mass., and also the Careys-first Latin teacher in the Colonies.

Also, I had ancestors who fought in the American Revolution on both sides - in fact, I'm entitled to be a member of DAR/SAR if I wanted to be.

And, I agree with you that many western nations did engage in very un-Christlike behavior - but as a whole, industrialization, scientific progress, and certainly the technological age are products of forward thinking western nations that are not shackled with regressive religious views.

My Dear Friend Angela said:

"This is mainly because of the poverty levels in the countries.  If you look back to the Middle Ages the Catholic Church (the only one at the time, not picking on you Patty. )  Jailed Galileo for his forward thinking and burned people at the stakes for daring to translate the Bible into the Vernacular.  Meanwhile, the Muslim countries were endulging in Science, Math, Philosophy and Astronomy."

I have never denied the wrongdoings of the Church.  To our credit, we have "seen the error of our ways" apologized, and stopped this terribly inappropriate behavior.  

I should also like to remind you that the Muslims were not exactly fuzzy teddy bears in even earlier decades, as you will agree when you read:

"In 682, when the Arabs swept through North Africa, Okba (Uqba ibn-Nefi) conquered Morocco. Under successive Moorish dynasties, beginning with Idris I (Idris bin 'Abdallah) in 788, the Berber tribes were united and the Islamic faith and Arabic language adopted. The Idrisid dynasty, an offshoot of the Umayyad dynasty, with its capital at F�s (founded in 800), lasted until 974, when it was overthrown by the Berbers. Rising in the Sahara in the early 11th century, the powerful Muslim sect of the Almoravids extended its conquests over North Africa and ultimately into Spain. 'Abdallah bin Yasin, its chief, was proclaimed ruler over Morocco in 1055. In 1147, the Almohad sect (Al-Muwahhidun), led by 'Abd al-Mumin bin 'Ali, conquered the Almoravids and ruled Morocco until 1269, when the Marinid (Beni Marin) dynasty came to power."

Hmmm, seems like we've all "sinned and come short of the Glory of God" now doesn't it?  Casting stones does none of us any good.  We are here to draw closer to understanding and peace.  I am not here to begin a "convert a Muslim" campaign.  I am happy that everyone seems to have a faith in which they strongly believe, and I think that makes God very happy too.

We just need to be permitted to say what our churches believe, and why they believe what they do, without fear of repercussion, insults, and rude behavior.  That's the purpose of true debate and mature dialogue.....and I mean this from both sides.  Can't we all agree on that? 

Peace to All,

Patty

Angela said,

"I have a family line that's been here since 1662, Gideon La Plante Merlett.  Look him up on the internet."

I will do that.  It would be an interesting read.

Alibaba said,

"My family connections are with the Witherspoons of Mass., and also the Careys-first Latin teacher in the Colonies. "

Ah, New England, my place of residence too.

Actually my fifth generation grandfather was John Page of Virginia, a life long friend to Thomas Jefferson, and writer of many letters to President Jefferson.  Then again, my great-grandmother Stevens was a little different, she was a prostitute who arrived on the shores of NYC from Denmark.  We could never find out who my grandmother's father was.    And Grandma Stevens became very religious in her old age.  I loved her.  She was sweet and kind.

So we're all just one big gigantic melting pot here, aren't we?  Except perhaps for my husband and his family.  They are Passamaquady Indians, or a part of the Micmac Tribes, from Maine.  They just chose to bloom where they were originally planted......right here in Maine.

God's Peace,

Patty

My friend�s psychic nutritionist assured me that my paternal grand mother thrice removed, a fan of Sarah Bernhardt up from New Orleans, died early, just off State Street in Boston, of complications related to syphilis and gonorrhea.   Fortunately for me, she did not die before receiving the seasoned voluptuary and literateur, the Earl of Shaftesbury (no pun intended), into her boudoir.

I suspect that this is why I am so dramatic and a bit of a rogue.  That said, this is my general and over all impersonation of this board lately, especially as it relates to some of the complaints from visitors (instead of a human, see this as a big alligator, getting the Persian carpet wet):  

Serv

Serv

Angela wrote: Alibaba wrote: PS:  Then there are those supposedly born in America who detest that great land - well, I suppose you don't detest all the benefits you get.  The welfare programs.  The medical programs.  Shame on you. I'm born American and Christian and I dislike the current government.  I dislike the policies of many of the lawmakers.  I speak out against war, prejudice and economic stupidity.  I enjoy these rights given to me by the poor and oppressed who came here and sweated to create this country and continued to come and build this country.  One of the greatest parts of being American is being able to disagree with the establishment.  I can make a change and a difference.  The only ones who don't have a right to complain are those who don't want to do anything to change the system.  Democracy is an interactive system.  If you just sit and complain and do nothing, then its no longer a Democracy.  I agree that we should all try to work on fixing this poorly used, but hopefully fixable government.  But, everyone is invited to come here (legally) and bring with them the very things that make us strong.  Diversity and Hope for a better life. When, in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the Causes which impel them to the Separation. We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence indeed, will dictate, that Governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

That's a good document really!

Alibaba wrote: Does this site promote hatred of the West

i hope it did ! but unfortunately it does not promote hatred of the west !

I'm sorry George, I just now read this reply.

Do they?  What I see is Christians defending their faith.  What is the meaning
of an interfaith dialog anyway?  Isn't it to discuss what we believe and why we
believe it in order to promote a better understanding of our faiths?  We don't
have to agree.  When someone posts a topic that the crucifixion is a lie,
wouldn't you expect Christians to show Muslims the reason we don't believe it to
be a lie?  How else are we going to understand each other's beliefs?

Well, I counted the threads on the Interfaith Section and of the last 20 discussed, 13 of them were started by Christians. I would assume starting a thread is not defending it.

The topic, the Crucifixion is a lie, was the fourth active thread about the crucifixion, the other three started by Christians. Perhaps Abrah was merely defending the Muslim position instead of the other way around. His choice of words may not always be the best, but the belief is that held by Muslims.

Here is an example of a post in the Interfaith Section:

fredifreeloader Senior Member Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 388

Posted: 26 April 2006 at 12:08pm | IP 84.64.180.99 http://www.islamicity.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=41191&TPN=12"> this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4941788.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4941788.stm is just sick. - yes the brothel is sick, and so is the ad, but im talking about the muslim protest, which (once again) took the form of threats of violence how can muslims even protest about this, in view of this: http://www.lexicorient.com/e.o/misyar.htm - http://www.lexicorient.com/e.o/misyar.htm and this: http://www.metimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20000407-042210-7478r - http://www.metimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20000407- 042210-7478r also this: sahih bukhari vol.6 book60 no.139 -----????????? we, in the west, are sick to death of listening to muslim threats and moralizing.  as well as this constant fantasy that you are somehow being insulted by everything we say and do - get your own house in order, and then you will be qualified to address the prostitution issue