Do Muslims believe that Jesus will come again?  If so, how do you support that claim?

If you don't believe that Jesus will come again, please explain why you do not.

Thank you.

George,

The way you have posed the questions, for you, it is:

Head, I win and Tail, I win! Please ask only one question. You cannot ask two win-win questions.  

bmzsp wrote: George, The way you have posed the questions, for you, it is: Head, I win and Tail, I win! Please ask only one question. You cannot ask two win-win questions.

BMZ, you have already told me that you do not believe that Jesus will come again.  I want to find out if other Muslims agree with you.

I also want to know on what basis a Muslim believes that Jesus will come again.

Peace 

The question once again:

Do Muslims believe that Jesus will come again?

Thanks.

George,

Have you seen this site?

http://www.jesuswillreturn.com - http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

Its a Muslim site dedicated to Jesus and the muslim teachings about him. 

Angela, thanks for that link to that site.  That was pretty interesting.  One question, it appears that Jesus didn't die from that site.  Also, appears that Jesus has a big part to play in end-time events according to Islam. 

All this taken into consideration, it seems that that site makes Jesus seem far more important than the founder of Islam.  Also, Jesus is said to be still alive, whereas Mohammed is dead, right?  Seem strange.

Angela wrote: George, Have you seen this site? http://www.jesuswillreturn.com - http://www.jesuswillreturn.com Its a Muslim site dedicated to Jesus and the muslim teachings about him.

No, Angela, I have not seen the site, but I will check it out.

Thanks.

Angela wrote: It was a link I was given when I first got here.  Its the most comprehensive site I've seen to date on Jesus in Islam.  In understanding their views and beliefs regarding Mary, Jesus and the Crucifixion.  However, I have yet to truly get an answer I'm satisfied with as to the absense of Joseph and the slaughter of the innocents in the Quran.

Angela,

Interesting that you said you haven't received an answer you are satisfied about Joseph.  I haven't either.  The Qur'an completely ignores that Mary married Joseph and had other children.

Seems to me that God made sure that Jesus grew up in a normal family.

Peace

Yankovich wrote: George, I read someplace (I think it was in the little book "Islam for Idiots" sold at various bookstores), that some Muslims believe Jesus will come again and break the cross (whatever that means).  Kind of odd, if you ask me.  And then, they say, he will die like a regular man.  Apparently, Muslims don't believe that Jesus has died yet.

Yank,

From what I heard the reference to Jesus breaking the cross means that he will disavow Christianity and say that he is a Muhammadian Muslim.  He is supposed to kill all the pigs too, whatever that means.  Poor pigs.  It could be a reference to Jews because Allah called the Jews monkeys and pigs.  Do you think he's going to kill all the Jews?

Yes, Jesus is supposed to die like a regular man, but before that he is supposed to marry and have children and when he dies he will be buried next to Muhammad.

Can you imagine Jesus running around the Kab'ah 7 times and throwing rocks at the devil?

I don't know where all this stuff comes from.

Peace

George, I guess he's going to kill the poor pigs because they are unclean to Jews and Muslims.  Aren't you happy that Jesus made all foods clean?

MARK 7:18 And he said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated? (Thus he declared all foods clean.) "

and

 

ACTS 10:10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13 Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." 14 "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." 15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." (NIV)

Yankovich wrote: George, I guess he's going to kill the poor pigs because they are unclean to Jews and Muslims.  Aren't you happy that Jesus made all foods clean? MARK 7:18 And he said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated? (Thus he declared all foods clean.) " and   ACTS 10:10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13 Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." 14 "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." 15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." (NIV)

Yes, God does not care what we eat.  He is concerned with our health, of course.  Back in the OT there were no refrigerators.  Even other meats were to be thrown away if they hadn't been completely consumed.

I guess God should have warned us about contaminated eggs and mayonaise too.  What did He say about smoking?

Peace

Yankowich,

From you: "MARK 7:18 And he said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated? (Thus he declared all foods clean.) "

Here, Jesus was not declaring all foods  clean! He was teaching people to speak nicely and courteously without talking crudely or being harsh to others. In other words, he was saying "Dont' be rude and harsh. Talk nicely."

and Next:

"ACTS 10:10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13 Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." 14 "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." 15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." (NIV) "

Now looking at "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." (NIV)", could you tell me what God had made unclean in the Laws and Commandments which  were given to Moses and Jesus confirmed that he had not come to change an iota in the Laws and that the Law stood? 

Yankovich wrote: I don't recall God saying anything about smoking, and the NT doesn't forbid alcohol only drunkeness.  God wants us to be as wise as serpents - so, that would mean we shouldn't be downing 2 or three pounds of raw red meat each day, or raw pork for that matter.  However, I have to tell you, pork is my favorite meat.  I think that it was forbidden in the Old Testament times due to problems with parasites not being destroyed by cooking (as in those days, rare meats were in vogue).

Yank,

I think that Islam and Judaism put too much importance on what to eat and what to wear, etc., and not enough attention to what is really important and what God really wants from us.

Good works are fine, but faith comes first and the product of that faith is good works.  Good works will not get you saved.  God does not owe us anything and He can't be bought.

Peace

Hi bmz, I think you are talking apples and oranges here.  Christians, of course, believe that God's Laws stand forever.  You will forever be measured by those laws to point out that you are NOT righteous.  That's why we need a Savior - to pay the price of our unrighteousness.

Regarding ceremonial laws and those pertaining to food, these were laws that were given to the Jews under the Old Covenant.  Christians, being under a new and better covenant (see Book of Hebrews) are no longer obligated to observe food restriction laws, or to perform Mosaic ceremonies.  We are free in Christ.

I hope this is helpful.

Yankovich wrote: Hi bmz, I think you are talking apples and oranges here.  Christians, of course, believe that God's Laws stand forever.  You will forever be measured by those laws to point out that you are NOT righteous.  That's why we need a Savior - to pay the price of our unrighteousness. Regarding ceremonial laws and those pertaining to food, these were laws that were given to the Jews under the Old Covenant.  Christians, being under a new and better covenant (see Book of Hebrews) are no longer obligated to observe food restriction laws, or to perform Mosaic ceremonies.  We are free in Christ. I hope this is helpful.

Yank,

My Jew tells me that circumcision was only for the Jews as were the food laws.

Peace

fredifreeloader wrote: george - one of these days im going to switch this thing on to find that all the threads have been started by - george, and that all the latest posts have been made by -george, i mean dont you have a job, or anything? - not that im objecting or anything

George is prolific, don't you think? lol and obedient to the Master Lk 9:23

Jesus has been here all along.  He is not a being persay but the entity of the Holy Spirit that was breathed into us all at our creation and this Holy Spirit demands we be Educated, Counseled, Consulted and strive in Jihad (Jihad means struggle and the first and most important level is the struggle with self, ie working on being a good person)

That is why Allah had the Angels bow down to us.

We have a high Station as gaurdians of each other and the world if only people understood this and strived towards this duty.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

amlhabibi2000 wrote: Jihad means struggle and the first and most important level is the struggle with self, ie working on being a good person

can we have a confirmation from the quran for this statement?

Since you are a Christian Fundamentalist, Fredi,   I would not let you have something from Qur'aan but I can give you a very good example.

Jihad means struggle, to strive in the way of God and the best Jihadi, prior to Islam, was my dear Jesus. He carried out his Jihad for God Almighty, night and day.

�BMZ, you have already told me [George] that you do not believe that Jesus will come again.�

I notice that you have remained silent on this point, BMZ.  If you don't mind my asking, is this true?  Do you reject the ahadith, including those from Sahih Bukhari, which describe the rise of Dajjal and the return of Jesus?  Please explain.

Serv

fredifreeloader wrote: amlhabibi2000 wrote: Jihad means struggle and the first and most important level is the struggle with self, ie working on being a good person can we have a confirmation from the quran for this statement?

Fred: We already did this on another thread. Do you REALLY want me to copy all of that again when you know it's there?

Think of a new question...

"Yes, God does not care what we eat.  He is concerned with our health, of course.  Back in the OT there were no refrigerators." 

So, are you saying Jesus created the first refrigerator and that's why Paul said God said you can eat pork? Well, Paul had a dream that God said, you know the story.

I must have missed that verse in the NT...

"All this taken into consideration, it seems that that site makes Jesus seem far more important than the founder of Islam.  Also, Jesus is said to be still alive, whereas Mohammed is dead, right? "

Well, since we believe GOD founded Islam, we Muslims would say that it is a blasphemy to make Jesus more important than God. To Christians though, that doesn't seem to be a problem, so feel free....

Abednego,

"George is prolific, don't you think? lol and obedient to the Master Lk 9:23"

Have you noticed that "BMZ" is now the Word on George's lips instead of the Word of the Lord?   

No more vanishing and hiding acts, please!

Servie,

From you:"�BMZ, you have already told me [George] that you do not believe that Jesus will come again.�

I notice that you have remained silent on this point, BMZ.  If you don't mind my asking, is this true?  Do you reject the ahadith, including those from Sahih Bukhari, which describe the rise of Dajjal and the return of Jesus?  Please explain."

Silence is golden and Yes! I wanted to be silent on this issue. George and I have discussed these issues on two sites, an Islamic site and the other an unholy site.  You must have noticed that George started a few threads by quoting my name in his posts?  I wish George had not initiated that way. This one is sensitive but since you asked me sincerely, I will break my silence and say a few words:

I do not reject Ahaadith or the sayings of our dear Prophet. I do not accept only those ahaadith which do not stand true in the light or shade of Qur'aan, even though people call them "Authentic".

More than sixteen years ago, when I did not understand Arabic, although I could read and write, I used to accept each and every hadith as told. Ignorance is a bliss. There was a lecture by a scholar who quoted a hadith which did not seem right to me. I grilled him and asked him to quote me from Qur'aan. Instead of quoting from Qur'aan, he told me to go read, learn and study Qur'aan, which I did. I spent about 13 years on that and with over 120 times detailed readings and study of Qur'aan, I learnt a lot but I never found any reference to or the topic mentioned by that scholar.

And I found out that it is better to be in pain rather than enjoying the bliss of ignorance.

Qur'aan really teaches and explains. There are no gospel writers in it and when I read it I can feel how God spoke with Muhammad through the Arch-Angel Gabriel, known as the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Truth, who faithfully delivered and conveyed God's messages to all prophets and Mary. 

Now Qur'aan stands Supreme among all Islamic texts and books and if a hadith, no matter how authentic it may be, is weak or sounds incorrect, I reject it. I can't agree with the argument that even though the hadith is weak and it is in the collections, hence one must believe in it.

Regarding the return of Jesus, I do not believe in that because if Jesus were really to return, it would have been a subject of a great importance and God would have told us clearly. There is no verse in Qur'aan that clearly says that God will send Jesus back again. The Hadith subject does that. Some point to a few verses of Qur'aan and say that such verses point to the return of Jesus.

If we read NT carefully, Jesus completed or accomplished his mission that he was sent for.  If Jesus were to come to become a Muslim like us, then all prophets should be given a second chance!

I believe that Jesus did his best, people tried to kill him, God saved him for God is the Mighty and the Only Saviour. He escaped, lived somewhere to his ripe old age and died. Only his mother Mary, Mary Magdala and the people who were really very close to him, hid him and took good care of him, buried him somewhere in an unmarked grave.  There are many reasonable doubts within the NT itself, that confirm he survived the crucification, was healed and lived.

Best Regards

BMZ

Mishmish wrote: fredifreeloader wrote: amlhabibi2000 wrote: Jihad means struggle and the first and most important level is the struggle with self, ie working on being a good person can we have a confirmation from the quran for this statement? Fred: We already did this on another thread. Do you REALLY want me to copy all of that again when you know it's there? Think of a new question...

well no, mish, what you gave on that thread did not show that the struggle with self was the first and most important level of jihad 

Fredi,

Last time it was sin everytime of the day and now you are making me feel ashamed of gospels!

Is there anything nicer, available.

Angela, thanks for that link to that site.  That was pretty interesting.  One question, it appears that Jesus didn't die from that site.  Also, appears that Jesus has a big part to play in end-time events according to Islam. 

All this taken into consideration, it seems that that site makes Jesus seem far more important than the founder of Islam.  Also, Jesus is said to be still alive, whereas Mohammed is dead, right?  Seem strange.

_______________________________________________________

My response:

Quran says:

"Jesus will bear witness  against his people."

so we are his people? - its good that you recognise at least that much, abrah

Mishmish wrote: "All this taken into consideration, it seems that that site makes Jesus seem far more important than the founder of Islam.  Also, Jesus is said to be still alive, whereas Mohammed is dead, right? " Well, since we believe GOD founded Islam, we Muslims would say that it is a blasphemy to make Jesus more important than God. To Christians though, that doesn't seem to be a problem, so feel free....

We Christians believe that God founded Christianity too, through Jesus.

It is merely a comparison between your prophet and our prophet--Muhammad and Jesus.

If Jesus is coming again and Muhammad isn't that can be interpreted that God put special emphasis on Jesus, whereas He did not with Muhammad.

Peace

Mishmish wrote: "Yes, God does not care what we eat.  He is concerned with our health, of course.  Back in the OT there were no refrigerators."  So, are you saying Jesus created the first refrigerator and that's why Paul said God said you can eat pork? Well, Paul had a dream that God said, you know the story. I must have missed that verse in the NT...

By Jesus' teachings you can readily see that he accepted the Gentiles as they were, including what they ate.

Peace 

Yankovich wrote: George, Yeah I'd agree with that thing about circumcision - since it was a sign of the Old Covenant, not the New.  Christians do not need to be circumcised ceremonially - in fact Paul counsels against it.

Yankovich,

A Muslim once told me that they had to be circumcised in order to "get in on the covenant."

What is your opinion about that?

Thanks,

Peace

BMZ,

Jesus fulfilled the law.  It is still on the books, just as it is, but Jesus fulfilled parts of it.  We are still to follow the ten commandments.

Peace

4:159 Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus; <>Asad(4,173) and on the Day of Resurrection he [himself] shall bear witness to the truth against them.

Wain min ahli alkitabi illa layuminanna bihi qabla mawtihi wayawma alqiyamati yakoonu AAalayhim shaheedan

4:172 Never did the Christ feel too proud to be God's servant, nor do the angels who are near unto Him. And those who feel too proud to serve Him and glory in their arrogance [should know that on Judgment Day] He will gather them all unto Himself:

Lan yastankifa almaseehu an yakoona AAabdan lillahi wala almalaikatu almuqarraboona waman yastankif AAan AAibadatihi wayastakbir fasayahshuruhum ilayhi jameeAAan

 

19:33 "Hence, peace was upon me on the day when I was born, and [will be upon me] on the day of my death, and on the day when I shall be raised to life [again]!"

19:33
Waalssalamu AAalayya yawma wulidtu wayawma amootu wayawma obAAathu hayyan

 

I just can't understand how people refuse to understand simple sentences and their meanings. Here are some single-lined comments:

The Law for food had been ORDAINED by God and no power can change it. Period.

It was always clear what God forbade and that was forbidden forever.

Jesus spoke about what comes out of the mouth.

Jesus was not talking about vomitting or spitting which comes out from the mouth.

What comes out of the mouth is not the food.

What comes out of the mouth of a person is speech. 

Jesus did not speak about the refuse going the other way down. (I have tried my best to put it as nicely as I could)

Jesus thus did not change the Law but taught people to speak nicely.

Jesus did not give that example to allow the Gentiles to eat every damn critter or creature that walks the Earth!  No wonder, Koreans and Chinese have begun to love Jesus.

George,

From you: "BMZ,

Jesus fulfilled the law.  It is still on the books, just as it is, but Jesus fulfilled parts of it.  We are still to follow the ten commandments".

Everyone is doing that. Even those who do not believe in God are also almost doing that. Jesus fulfilled the law? I beg your pardon. He broke the law, if I were to believe that.

Are you supposed to follow the other Commandments given in the OT? They are plenty of them ordained and binding on everyone, not just the Jews, you know.

Angela,

Those are one of the most favourite verses and I appreciate how well did you put them. V4:159 is a great verse and I hope people get a real grasp of that.

Such a crystal clear message. God bless you. Ameen

BR

BMZ

BMZ,

Thank you for explaining. I understand your reticence.  

When I first arrived at this site, being a novice, with nothing in my predominantly and at least nominally Christian family or nation to bias me toward Islam, I was under the impression that the ahadith were quite possibly a collection of �traditions� very roughly analogous to the extra-Biblical rabbinical traditions found in Judaism (e.g., Talmud) and concerning which, as I understood, Jesus is said to have issued a warning:  �beware the leaven of the Pharisees.�

Although I still heed the warning, I have since, with the help of Muslims, of course, learned more about both the importance and validity of ahadith.  Still speaking personally, I appreciate the fact that Islam contains prophecies �at times, seemingly remarkably accurate ones at that- concerning the �end times,� or culmination of the age, and the return of Jesus because, I think to myself, if Muhammad had been disingenuous and self-aggrandizing, he would have prophesied his own, not someone else�s return.  And I say this despite the fact that the prophecies would apparently make Jesus capitulate, as it were, to Islam (in much the same way, it could be argued, that the Christian prophecies would seem to make Judaism capitulate to Christ, or Christianity).

At any rate, I think the prophecies are interesting and that Islam is in some sense the richer for having them as part of its corpus of even fringe, or arguable, literature.  That said, and returning to the Talmud theme, sometimes when I hear Christians (in general, not referring to anyone on this board or in this thread) commenting upon the Islamic prophecies, or their (generally really bad) interpretation of them, it reminds me of their comprehension of the Talmud.

Anyway, thank you, again, for explaining.

Your friend,

Servie

Hi Servie,

Thanks for the understanding. You will also notice that in Islam, that they have kept all Ahaadith open, nothing is hidden. They go into minute details and even into Prophet's life for he belonged to all not just scholars, so that Muslims can learn and emulate as best as they can.

Best Regards

BMZ

Hi Serv:

"And I say this despite the fact that the prophecies would apparently make Jesus capitulate, as it were, to Islam (in much the same way, it could be argued, that the Christian prophecies would seem to make Judaism capitulate to Christ, or Christianity)."

I will just say that Jesus(PBUH) will not capitulate to Islam. He has always followed Islam. Simply put, Islam is surrendering to the Will of God.

Mishmish wrote: Hi Serv: "And I say this despite the fact that the prophecies would apparently make Jesus capitulate, as it were, to Islam (in much the same way, it could be argued, that the Christian prophecies would seem to make Judaism capitulate to Christ, or Christianity)." I will just say that Jesus(PBUH) will not capitulate to Islam. He has always followed Islam. Simply put, Islam is surrendering to the Will of God.

You are talking about what I call Muhammadian Islam.

Can you really picture Jesus running around the Kab-bah 7 times and throwing rocks at the devil?

All Christians and all Jews submit or surrender to the will of God.

Peace

Mishmish,

I understand your viewpoint.  Thank you for making the point.  No argument (at present) from my side.

Serv

George,

From you to Mishmish: "You are talking about what I call Muhammadian Islam."

I would not call any religion Abrahamian Islam or Mosaican Islam or Jacobian Islam or Josephian Islam or Jesusarian Islam. I would just call it Islam the religion.

If we were to look at Christianity through your eyes and reasoning, then Christianity is Paulanian religion, for that is not what the Master taught. 

From you, George to Mishmish: "Can you really picture Jesus running around the Kab-bah 7 times and throwing rocks at the devil?"

Yes, I can! Why not? If I could see him running and hiding, sitting in a boat, walking on water, getting stones thrown at him, all in the way of God; I can see him in a two-piece towel suit called Ihram, circling (not running around, as we don't run around, we walk around), the Ka'aba seven times, praising the Glory of God Almighty, going on to perform the Hajj, etc. After all it was not Muhammad who initiated that. It was initiated by Abraham and I am sure Jesus would have loved to do what his Great Great GGGGrand father did.

From you to Mishmish: "All Christians and all Jews submit or surrender to the will of God."

Yes they do and have to submit and surreneder to the WILL of the One Lord God Almighty, as Moses and Jesus did with full humility and obedience like servants. There is no other choice.

George's statement:You are talking about what I call Muhammadian Islam.

Can you really picture Jesus running around the Kab-bah 7 times and throwing rocks at the devil?

All Christians and all Jews submit or surrender to the will of God.

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

My response:

It seems to me that you George don't know Islam. What is Islam?

The word "Islam" is an Arabic word which means "submission to the will of God". This word comes from the same root as the Arabic word "salam", which means "peace". As such, the religion of Islam teaches that in order to achieve true peace of mind and surety of heart, one must submit to God and live according to His Divinely revealed Law. The most important truth that God revealed to mankind is that there is nothing divine or worthy of being worshipped except for Almighty God, thus all human beings should submit to Him.

The word "Muslim" means one who submits to the will of God, regardless of their race, nationality or ethnic background. Being a Muslim entails willful submission and active obedience to God, and living in accordance with His message.

Islam is not a new religion because "submission to the will of God", i.e. Islam, has always been the only acceptable religion in the sight of God. For this reason, Islam is the true "natural religion", and it is the same eternal message revealed through the ages to all of God's prophets and messengers.

Muslims believe that all of God's prophets, which include Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, brought the same message of Pure Monotheism. For this reason, the Prophet Muhammad was not the founder of a new religion, as many people mistakenly think, but he was the Final Prophet of Islam. By revealing His final message to Muhammad, which is an eternal and universal message for all of mankind, God finally fulfilled the covenant that He made with Abraham, who was one of the earliest and greatest prophets.

Suffice it to say that the way of Islam is the same as the way of the prophet Abraham, because both the Bible and the Qur'an portray Abraham as a towering example of someone who submitted himself completely to God and worshipped Him without intermediaries. Once this is realized, it should be clear that Islam has the most continuous and universal message of any religion, because all prophets and messengers were "Muslims", i.e. those who submitted to God's will, and they preached "Islam", i.e. submission to the will of Almighty God.

What does Quran say about Islam and the prophets of God:

Quran 3:64 Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will).

Therefore Jesus is a Muslim and he is a  messenger of Allah for Allah sent him to the house of Israel:

Throughout the Qur�aan, Jesus is identified fundamentally as a Messenger of God. In Chapter as-Saff (61):6, God quotes Jesus as follows:

  �And [remember] when Jesus, son of Mary, said: �O Children of Israel, I am the messenger of Allaah sent to you, confirming the Torah [which came] before me.�

Even the New Testament agrees with the Holy Quran by saying in Matthew 21:11, the people of his time are recorded as referring to Jesus as a prophet: �And the crowds said, �This is the prophet Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.� �  .....According to Matthew 15:22-28:He [Jesus] answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.' 

Part of Prophet Jesus� message was to inform his followers of the prophet who would come after him. As John the Baptist heralded the coming of Jesus Christ, Jesus in turn heralded the coming of the last of the prophets of God, Muhammad.

In the Qur�aan, Chapter as-Saff (61):6, God quotes Jesus� prophesy about Muhammad:

�(Remember) when Jesus, son of Mary, said, �O Children of Israel, I am the Messenger of Allaah sent to you, confirming the Torah before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger coming after me, whose name will be Ahmad.� Note: �Ahmad� like �Muhammad� is a derivative from the Arabic root hamd meaning �praise; thanks�.  Prophet Muhammad was also known by this name.

  There are also some references in the Gospels which seem to refer to the coming of Prophet Muhammad�may God�s peace and blessings be on all the prophets. In the Gospel according to John 14:16, Jesus is quoted as saying, �And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever.� Note:The Greek word paraclete is translated as �Comforter� in the King James Version, and as �Advocate� and �Helper� in other translations.  Parakletos means one who pleads the cause of another, one who counsels or advises another from deep concern for the other�s welfare. (Beacon Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 168).

Christian laymen usually interpret the �Counselor� mentioned in John 14:16 as the Holy Spirit. Note:See John 14:26, �But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things...�  However, in 1st John 4:1, the term �Spirit� is used to refer to a prophet, �Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.�

 However, the phrase �another Counselor� implies that it will be someone else like Jesus and not the Holy Spirit, especially considering John 16:7, in which Jesus is reported to have said, �Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.� 

The term �Counselor� could not be referring to the Holy Spirit here, because�according to the Gospels�the Holy Spirit was already present in the world prior to Jesus� birth, as well as during his ministry.

Note: (i)John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while in his mother�s womb (Luke 1:15); Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41); John�s father, Zacharias, was also filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke:1:67). (ii)The Holy Spirit was on Simeon (Luke 2:26) and it descended in the shape of a dove on Jesus (Luke 3:22). This verse implies that the �Counselor� had not already come.

             Jesus� declaration that the prophet-counselor �will be with you forever,� could be interpreted to mean that there would be no need for additional prophets to succeed this Counselor. He would be the last of the Prophets of God, whose message would be preserved until the end of the world. (Jesus, A Prophet of Islam, p. 13) 

God sends the prophet Muhammad as His last messenger to all mankind: 

The Prophet's mission, however, is universal. Allah (S.W.T.)    (Subhanahu wa ta�ala, meaning: the Exalted, Most Glorious) tells mankind that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) is no more than a Messenger (Qur�an 3: 144), the unlettered Prophet who believes in Him and His Words (Qur�an 7: 158).  He is the Seal of the Prophets and the true universal Messenger of All�h to the whole mankind (Qur�an 33: 40). Allah (S.W.T.), the All-Mighty, makes this very clear:

"We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but as a universal (Messenger) to men giving them glad tidings and warning them (against sin) but most men understand not." (Qur�n 34: 28)

The Messenger (s.a.w.s.) possesses an exalted (standard of) character (Qur�an 68:4) and an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah (S.W.T.)   and the Final Day, and who remembers Allah (S.W.T.)   much  (Qur�an 33: 21). Allah (S.W.T.)   endowed him with exalted standard of character for us to follow. Every aspect of his life has been fully dealt with, providing complete guidance to the whole mankind. For our guidance, Allah (S.W.T.), the All-Mighty commands us to believe and obey His Messenger (s.a.w.s.):

"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): �If you (really) love All�h then follow me (i.e. accept Isl�mic Monotheism, follow the Qur��n and the Sunnah), All�h will love you and forgive you your sins. And All�h is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.� Say (O Muhammad): �Obey All�h and the Messenger (Muhammad).� But if they turn away, then All�h does not like the disbelievers." (Qur�an 3: 31)

"O mankind! Verily, there has come to you the Messenger (Muhammad) with the truth from your Rabb (Sustainer). So believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then certainly to All�h belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. And All�h is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise." (Qur�n 4: 170)

"O you who believe! Obey All�h, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds." (Qur�n 47: 33)

  It is a must that we obey Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.).  Allah (S.W.T.)   tells us that he who obeys His Messenger (s.a.w.s.) obeys Him: 

"He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad) has indeed obeyed All�h, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (Muhammad) as a watcher over them." (Qur�n 4: 80)

Allah (S.W.T.) sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth to make it prevail over all religions.  He (I) says: "It is He (Allah) Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth that he may proclaim it over all religion even though the Pagans may detest (it)." (Qur�n 61: 9)

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George's statement: From what I heard the reference to Jesus breaking the cross means that he will disavow Christianity and say that he is a Muhammadian Muslim.

My response: Jesus is a prophet of Allah according to Quran so Jesus is a Muslim:

The Quran says in reference to the status of Jesus as a Messenger:

Quran 3:64 Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will).

Jesus will come to refute the Trinity:

 He will come to refute the Christian false claims that 'Jesus is the son of God'. The Quran also states:

 He will come to refute the Christian false claims that  'Jesus is God':

'And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." '(Quran 5:119)

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George's statement: He (Jesus) is supposed to kill all the pigs too, whatever that means.  Poor pigs.  It could be a reference to Jews because Allah called the Jews monkeys and pigs.  Do you think he's going to kill all the Jews?

My response:

(i)Jesus kills pigs (Mark 5:11-13)

(ii) Please show me the Quranic verse that calls the Jews monkeys and pigs!

, George!

When Jesus called the Jews,"Ye brood of vipers", all the Jews, facing him, turned into vipers. Then all the Jews wriggled away. 

I have already explained this before. Is this the way to understand scriptures?

Good Night

BMZ

bmzsp wrote: , George! When Jesus called the Jews,"Ye brood of vipers", all the Jews, facing him, turned into vipers. Then all the Jews wriggled away.  I have already explained this before. Is this the way to understand scriptures? Good Night BMZ

Sorry, I am missing your point.

Peace

George,

You should not have missed the point. "Be as apes or swines" simply means that "If one does not behave the way God Almighty expects one to and one behaves in a lowly manner, then one is behaving like animals, so OK, go ahead and behave like apes or swines, meaning the Jews are being told 'you are behaving like animals.' "

Do you seriously believe that the Jews were turned into apes and swines physically by God? Some Muslims literally translate and understand it to mean that way but that is wrong.

When Moses had brought them out, went up the Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments and Aaron was forced to make a golden calf, the people were behaving like apes and swines.

Hope this clarified and you've got the point.

George wrote: Do Muslims believe that Jesus will come again?  If so, how do you support that claim? If you don't believe that Jesus will come again, please explain why you do not. Thank you.

43.61 informs us that Jesus will return.

Thus, Muslims cannot deny the Biblical claim, as it has been copied-over into their book of faith...

I am really worried about him. If he comes back, the Israelis may hit the Shaikh with a missile. It is better to be safe.

Anyway, the verse does not clearly refer or point to Jesus. I don't think he is coming.

bmzsp wrote:  Anyway, the verse does not clearly refer or point to Jesus. I don't think he is coming.

The context clearly demonstrates that the authors who penned this piece are referencing Jesus�

And verily He, i.e. Jesus, by His appearing, and descending to the earth, shall be a sign of the approach of the hour (of Resurrection).

Reference:

An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2138 - 2142

Time to obey your book of faith�

George's statement: From what I heard the reference to Jesus breaking the cross means that he will disavow Christianity and say that he is a Muhammadian Muslim.  He is supposed to kill all the pigs too, whatever that means.  Poor pigs.  It could be a reference to Jews because Allah called the Jews monkeys and pigs.  Do you think he's going to kill all the Jews?

George's statement: Although in the Koran, transformation into apes and pigs is connected only with Jews, Koranic commentary links transformation into apes and pigs with Christians as well. Verse 5:112-115 relates that the Apostles wanted to know whether God could bring down a table laden with food from the heavens.

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Answer:

George:

Is this verse literally speaking about dogs and swine?

Matthew 7:6: Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Hey George...You claim falsely that Allah called the Jews as monkeys and pigs.

Now it is my turn to expose the NT: Who are the non-Jews according to Jesus? I quote the NT: He [Jesus] answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.'  The woman came and knelt before him.   'Lord, help me!' she said.  He [Jesus] replied 'It is not right to take the children's [Jews] bread [blessings and miracles reserved for them] and toss it to their dogs [the Gentiles].' (Matthew 15:22-28)

Hey George...May I ask you a question? Are you a dog according to Matthew 15:22-28? Are those Christians who are not Jews the dogs? Jesus says so according to Matthew 15:22-28!

Mishmish,

From you:"George: Is this verse literally speaking about dogs and swine?

Matthew 7:6: Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Whatelse could it mean Mishmish?   It is so clearly written in English and it  means what it says. Had it been written in Arabic, it would have been different.

The above verse is telling people not to feed the dogs and pigs what is halal (kosher) to the people.  In other words, the people are being forbidden or discouraged to feed the dogs and swine.

In the gnostic materials, which have been thrown away under the cover of Apocrypha, I read somewhere, I can't remember, "do not garland pigs with pearls". That could also mean, "Do not garland dogs and pigs."

Anyway, here in this particular verse, it is clearly dogs and swines.

I just lovvvvved that, David. I want to play too, let me have more.

I think that Jesus will NOT return. He had completed his mission given to him by God. The Bible confirms that in his own words.

There is no prophecy in the OT or the Jewish Tanakh that the Messiah was to come, die, rise up, go back and come again.

Thanks for saying this, Annie.

"I think their is a prophecy in the OT that says the Messiah was to "come, die, rise up."  I'm not sure about his second coming.  I'd have to investigate that."

If you find anything solid on that, please let me know.

Those whom our text refers to as dogs and swine are those who scorn the truth and will hate you for reproving them. There is a difference between those who have not heard the truth and those who know but scorn the truth. Watch what it says in PRO 9:7-8, "He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee."

We must beware of the person who scorns God and holiness. Christ commands us not to cast holy things before him. Does this mean that the scornful person is never to be reproved? No. It means that when you see a scornful atmosphere, attitude, or spirit, quite often in God's own people, you must be careful what you say, when you say it, and how you say it lest you make them hate you. I've seen times that it was impossible to reprove one of God's dear children because they were in a wrong attitude. Quite often you must wait for the right time to reprove them.

We must be able to receive reproof as well as give it. Those who hate reproof are fools because God's Word commands us to reprove one another. You cannot reprove a fool because, "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise," PRO 12:15. When you and I cannot be reproved, we are acting foolishly because we forget that in a multitude of counsel there is wisdom. When we are so set in our own ways, and that way seems so right in our eyes, that we can't be told a thing, we are acting foolishly. Those who listen to counsel are wise.

PRO 15:5 says, "A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent." We are not to reprove those "fools" who despise instruction. We are not to cast that which is holy before such a person. "Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words," PRO 23:9. That does not mean we just turn them over to Satan without seeking and finding an opportunity to speak a word in season. "A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke," PRO 13:1. PRO 15:32 says, "He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding."

However, we don't answer a fool according to his folly. We don't answer a fool in such a way that we make him feel he is justified in his ways. ECC 7:5 says, "It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools," in other words, the boasting of those who are wise in their own ways.

Those dogs and swine spoken of in our text are those with whom you cannot share your pearls of self-knowledge as David spoke of in Psalm 51 because they would take your humble confessions and judge you vocally, going about as a barking dog, slandering your name. Remember, we considered Psalm 51 in the last sermon of how David's heart was prepared. He prayed that the Lord would give him an understanding of his own heart so he would be able to be a good reprover. When you come to those who would vocally judge you, in other words, going about as a barking dog slandering your name, you are to "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs..." You do not speak to a person in such a spirit the way David was speaking in Psalm 51. They would trample on it as happened to Mary Magdalene. She was humble and weeping over her sin, a contrite, loving sinner before Christ, but the Pharisee stood in his self-conceit, with a self-righteous beam in his eye, passing judgment.

Dear BMZ, you had asked for Old Testament scripture which tells of the second coming of Christ.  I have the following verses to offer you. Perhaps you will find them of interest.

Daniel 7:13-14 (King James Version) 

13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

I believe this is one of many verses to be found in the Old Testament which refers us to the second coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ. (The entire 7th Chapter of Daniel tells of the second coming, if you would like to check it out further.)

bmzsp wrote: I think that Jesus will NOT return. He had completed his mission given to him by God. The Bible confirms that in his own words. There is no prophecy in the OT or the Jewish Tanakh that the Messiah was to come, die, rise up, go back and come again.

Dear bmzsp,

Jesus had NOT completed his mission given to him by God because he was rejected by the Jews and Allah saved him from the crucifixion.  The Christians claim that he was crucified to death.

Jesus admitted that he had not completed his mission and he prophesied the coming of Prophet Muhammad who would complete his mission according to John 14:16, Jesus is quoted as saying, �And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever.� Note: The Greek word paraclete is translated as �Comforter� in the King James Version, and as �Advocate� and �Helper� in other translations.  Parakletos means one who pleads the cause of another, one who counsels or advises another from deep concern for the other�s welfare. (Beacon Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 168).

Dear AbRah,

The "Counselor" is most certainly the "Holy Spirit". 

In his farewell discourse to the apostles during the Last Supper on the night before he died, Jesus promised: "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Comforter to be with you always" (Jn 14:16). The word "Comforter" here translates the Greek word Par�kletos , the name which Jesus gave the Holy Spirit. "Comforter" is one possible meaning of Paraclete. In his discourse in the upper room Jesus suggested this meaning because he promised his disciples the continuing presence of the Spirit as a remedy against the sadness caused by his departure (cf. Jn 16:6-8).

The Holy Spirit, sent by the Father, will be "another Comforter" sent in the name of Christ, whose messianic mission must come to a close with his departure from this world to return to the Father. This departure, which took place through his death and resurrection, was necessary so that "another Comforter" could come. Jesus clearly affirmed this when he said: "If I do not go, the Comforter will not come to you" (Jn 16:7). The Second Vatican Council's Constitution Dei Verbum presents this sending of the "Spirit of truth" as the concluding moment of the revelatory and redemptive process responding to God's eternal plan (cf. n. 4). And all of us, in the sequence of Pentecost, invoke him: "Come, of comforters the best."

In Jesus' words about the Comforter we hear an echo of the books of the Old Testament, especially the "Book of Israel's Consolation" contained in the writings gathered under the name of the prophet Isaiah: "Comfort, give comfort to my people, says your God.... Speak tenderly to Jerusalem and proclaim to her that her servitude is at an end, her guilt is expiated" (Is 40:1-2). And later, "Sing out, O heavens and rejoice, O earth; break forth into song, you mountains, for the Lord comforts his people" (Is 49:13). For Israel the Lord is like a woman who cannot forget her child. In Isaiah the Lord says: "Even should [a mother] forget, I will never forget you" (Is 49:15).

In the objective finality of Isaiah's prophecy, besides the proclamation of Israel's return to Jerusalem following the exile, the promised "consolation" has a messianic content which the pious Israelites, faithful to the heritage of their ancestors, kept present up to the threshold of the New Testament. Thus we can explain what we read in Luke's Gospel about the aged Simeon who was "awaiting the consolation of Israel; the Holy Spirit was upon him. It had been revealed to him that he should not see death before he had seen the Messiah of the Lord" (Lk 2:25-26).

According to Luke, who is speaking of things that took place and narrates them in the context of the mystery of the Incarnation, it is the Holy Spirit who fulfills the prophetic promise connected with the coming of the first Comforter, Christ. It is he, in fact, who brings about in Mary the conception of Jesus, the incarnate Word (cf. Lk 1:35); it is he who enlightens Simeon and leads him to the Temple at the exact time of Jesus' presentation (cf. Lk 2:27); it is in him that Christ, at the beginning of his messianic ministry, in a reference to the prophet Isaiah, declares: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free" (Lk 4:18; cf. Is 61:1 f.).

The Comforter whom Isaiah spoke of, seen from the perspective of prophecy, is the one who brings the Good News from God, confirming it with "signs," that is, with works containing the salutary good of truth, justice, love and liberation�the "consolation of Israel." And when Jesus Christ, after having accomplished his work, left this world to return to the Father, he announced "another Comforter," that is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in his Son's name (cf. Jn 14:26).

The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, will be with the apostles; when Christ is no longer on the earth there will be long periods of affliction, lasting for centuries (cf. Jn 16:17 ff.). He will be with the Church and in the Church, especially during times of strife and persecution, as Jesus himself promised the apostles in the words contained in the Synoptic Gospels: "When they take you before synagogues and rulers and authorities, do not worry about how or what your defense will be or about what you are to say. For the Holy Spirit will teach you at that moment what you should say" (Lk 12:11-13; cf. Mk 13:11). In fact, "It will not be you who speak but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you" (Mt 10:20). These words refer to the tribulations suffered by the apostles and the Christians of the communities which they founded and presided over. But they also refer to all those who, throughout the world and in all centuries, have to suffer for Christ. In reality many people throughout the centuries, and recently too, have experienced this help of the Holy Spirit. They know and can testify to the joy of the spiritual victory which the Holy Spirit granted them. The whole Church of today knows it and testifies to it.

From her beginning in Jerusalem, the Church has never lacked opposition and persecution. However, in the Acts of the Apostles we read: "The Church throughout all Judea, Galilee and Samaria was at peace. It was being built up and walked in the fear of the Lord, and with the consolation of the Holy Spirit it grew in numbers" (Acts 9:31). It was the Spirit-Comforter promised by Jesus who sustained the apostles and the other disciples of Christ in the first trials and sufferings, and continued to grant the Church his comfort during periods of peace and calm as well. This peace depended on him, as did the growth of individuals and communities in the Gospel truth. That is how it has always been throughout the centuries.

The conversion and baptism of Cornelius, a Roman centurion, was a great "consolation" for the primitive Church (cf. Acts 10:44-48). He was the first "pagan" to enter the Church, together with his family, baptized by Peter. From that moment the number of those who converted from paganism began to multiply, especially through the apostolic activity of Paul of Tarsus and his companions; their number reinforced the multitude of Christians. In his discourse to the assembly of the apostles and the "elders" gathered in Jerusalem, Peter recognized in that fact the working of the Spirit-Comforter: "Brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the Gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the Holy Spirit just as he did us" (Acts 15:7-9). For the apostolic Church the "consolation" was that, in giving the Holy Spirit, as Peter says, God "made no distinction between them and us, for by faith he purified their hearts" (Acts 15:9). Another "consolation" was also the unity expressed in this regard by that meeting in Jerusalem: "It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us" (Acts 15:28). When the letter regarding the liberating decision made at Jerusalem was read to the community of Antioch, everyone was "delighted with the consolation (paraklesei) it contained" (Acts 15:31).

Another "consolation" of the Holy Spirit for the Church was the spread of the Gospel as the text of the new covenant. If the books of the Old Testament, inspired by the Holy Spirit, were already a source of consolation and comfort for the Church, as St. Paul says to the Romans (Rom 15:4), how much more so were the books which related "all that Jesus did and taught from the beginning" (Acts 1:1). Of these we can even more truly say that they were written "for our instruction, that by endurance and by the consolation of the scriptures we might have hope" (Rom 15:4).

Another consolation to be attributed to the Holy Spirit (cf. 1 Pet 1:12) is the fulfillment of Jesus' preaching, that is, that "the Gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations" (Mt 24:14). Among these nations, covering every era, there are also the people of the contemporary world, who seem so distracted and even led astray by success and the attraction of a too one-sided, material progress. To these people too, and to all of us, the work of the Spirit-Paraclete extends, who does not cease giving consolation and comfort with the Good News of salvation.

Since we have different "Holy Books", i.e., the Koran vs. the Bible, we are never going to agree.  Don't you think this is all a rather moot point?  What exactly is the point?  You cannot and would not leave Islam, and I could, but would not, leave the Catholic Church.  This is a "he said, she said" topic....all of the topics under "Islamic Interfaith Dialogue" are just forums for batting our own beliefs back and forth.  It's fine to do that, I suppose, but the reality is no one is going to budge regarding their faith/beliefs.  Do we agree on this?