Muslim BMZ said something that kind of floored me.  He said:

"Both the Jews and the Christians do NOT worship the Muslim God known by the name of Allah."

What do the rest of the Muslims on this site think about this?

Thank you.

George,

I think it would have been proper if you had posted the following  before, then people would have known why I said that. It was in response to your comments.

Here is the exchange for an easy reference:

From you, George: "The Arabic speaking Christians when they refer to the generic term "Allah" are worshipping YHVH.  They don't think in terms of Islam, but in the terms of the Old and New Testaments.  This is the same of any foreign speaking Christian.  The word God is different in Spanish, German, etc.  Most would tell you that they don't worship the same God that you do."

My Response: You have confirmed my point that Allah means God in Arabic and when Christian Arabs speak of Allah, of course they mean Yahweh or HaSchem. The Arab Christians are not worshipping my Allah. I know that. The word God is not even a real name used by the Semitic religions but all of us have borrowed it from English.

From you, George: "I'm sure it does, but there is more to it, BMZ.  When Christians and Jews worship Yahweh, YHVH, or Ha'Shem, they do not think of the Islamic God Allah.  I'm sure you will agree that "Allah" is not God's personal  name�it simply means God in Arabic.  Also according to my friend who reads the Bible in Arabic does not call Jesus "Isa."  I would have to look up what he calls him."

My Response: The Jews do not worship the Christian God at all. Period! They worship their own God by the name of Yahuweh or YHVH or HaSchem, which have been borrowed by Christians from the Jews. The Christians have modified the God of Jews and worship a Triune God also known as "YHVH" or "Yahweh" but mainly call him God. Both the Jews and the Christians do NOT worship the Muslim God known by the name of Allah.

We can now expect people to be in a better position to comment. Good Night from my side.

BMZ,

The rest of what you said is not relevant to my topic. Most Jews for certain would tell you that they do not worship the Muslim God Allah and most Christians would tell you the same, but for reasons other than names.

Muslims have always told me that they worship the God of the Christians and Jews.  The only thing that the Jews disagree with the Christians on is the nature of God.  Muslims disagree with the Christians about that too.

This is not a topic of the Trinity; that subject is on another thread.  This topic would be better titled: Is Allah YHVH?

Peace

George,

From you: "The rest of what you said is not relevant to my topic. Most Jews for certain would tell you that they do not worship the Muslim God Allah and most Christians would tell you the same."

It is relevant to your topic now that I have pointed out. Most Jews, their rabbis and Scholars will tell you bluntly that they do not accept the Christian God. They will also tell you bluntly that they DO NOT even read or recite the Christian OT.

From you, George: "Muslims have always told me that they worship the God of the Christians and Jews."

Muslims worship the God of the Jews, without any problem. Muslims worship the God of Jesus but Muslims DO NOT worship the Triune God of Christianity.  

From you, George: "The only thing that the Jews disagree with the Christians on is the nature of God."

That is incorrect. Jews do not accept a Triune God or Trinity or a Tri-unity. Jews are extremely monotheistic like Muslims. Just One Almighty God.

This is not a topic of the Trinity; that subject is on another thread.

bmzsp wrote: George, From you: "The rest of what you said is not relevant to my topic. Most Jews for certain would tell you that they do not worship the Muslim God Allah and most Christians would tell you the same." It is relevant to your topic now that I have pointed out. Most Jews, their rabbis and Scholars will tell you bluntly that they do not accept the Christian God. They will also tell you bluntly that they DO NOT even read or recite the Christian OT. /QUOTE] BMZ, of course, the Jews do not accept the Christian God.  That is not the subject.  And, of course, they do not read or recite the Greek Old Testament that was translated by Jews.  They prefer the Hebrew Scriptures.  That is also not the subject. BMZ wrote: From you, George: "Muslims have always told me that they worship the God of the Christians and Jews." Muslims worship the God of the Jews, without any problem. Muslims worship the God of Jesus but Muslims DO NOT worship the Triune God of Christianity.    That is not the subject.  A Jew would tell you that Muslims do not worship their God.  Ever wonder why not?  If you worship the God of Jesus, you are worshipping a God who is Father, whose Word incarnated Jesus, and whose Holy Spirit is alive and active in the world.  If you are not, then you are not worshipping the God of Jesus.  I'm not talking Trinity; I am talking about Father, Word and Holy Spirit--One God--One Being. [QUOTE=BMZ] From you, George: "The only thing that the Jews disagree with the Christians on is the nature of God." That is incorrect. Jews do not accept a Triune God or Trinity or a Tri-unity. Jews are extremely monotheistic like Muslims. Just One Almighty God.

BMZ, you must be tired.  Of course, the Jews do not accept a triune God.  That is not the subject.  And never forget that Christians are extremely monotheistic and believe in One God Almighty.

Peace 

George's statement: BMZ, you must be tired.  Of course, the Jews do not accept a triune God.  That is not the subject.  And never forget that Christians are extremely monotheistic and believe in One God Almighty.

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

 I quote George's statement 'And never forget that Christians are extremely monotheistic and believe in One God Almighty.'

My response:Christianity has digressed from the concept of the Oneness of God, however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during the fourth century. This doctrine, which continues to be a source of controversy both within and without the Christian religion, is known as the Doctrine of the Trinity. Simply put, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - in one divine being.

If that concept, put in basic terms, sounds confusing, the flowery language in the actual text of the doctrine lends even more mystery to the matter:

"...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity... for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal... he therefore that will be save must thus think of the Trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian Creed)

Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father + one person, God the Son + one person, God the Holy Ghost = one person, God the What? Is this English or is this gibberish?

It is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated this doctrine, confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.

Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however, has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of the Trinity - God being Three-in-One - is seen by Islam as a form of polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.

Jesus did not preach the Trinity during his life. The Trinity was introduced by a group of corrupt Christian priests of Nicea since 325 AD. That means 325 years after Jesus was gone!

Moses, Jesus and Muhammad had rejected the Trinity by saying that God is One and Only. They never say that God is One in Three! Proofs:

Moses says "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Jesus says "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again: "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..." (The Qur'an 2:163)

While Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such is not the case in Islam.

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God." (Qur'an 5:73) It is worth noting that the Arabic language Bible uses the name "Allah" as the name of God.

Suzanne Haneef, in her book WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT ISLAM AND MUSLIMS (Library of Islam, 1985), puts the matter quite succinctly when she says, "But God is not like a pie or an apple which can be divided into three thirds which form one whole; if God is three persons or possesses three parts, He is assuredly not the Single, Unique, Indivisible Being which God is and which Christianity professes to believe in." (pp. 183-184)

Looking at it from another angle, the Trinity designates God as being three separate entities - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If God is the Father and also the Son, He would then be the Father of Himself because He is His own Son. This is not exactly logical.

Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however, has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of the Trinity - God being Three-in-One - is seen by Islam as a form of polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.

In conclusion, we see that the doctrine of the Trinity is a concept conceived entirely by man; there is no sanction whatsoever from God to be found regarding the matter simply because the whole idea of a Trinity of divine beings has no place in monotheism. In the Qur'an, God's Final Revelations to mankind, we find His stand quite clearly stated in a number of eloquent passages:

"...your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner." (Qur'an 18:110)

"...take not, with God, another object of worship, lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected." (Qur'an 17:39)

...Because, as God tells us over and over again in a Message that is echoed throughout All His Revealed Scriptures:

"...I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore, serve Me (and no other)..." (Qur'an 21:92)

My response to George:

Christians claim falsely that Jesus is God so they worship Jesus but Jesus himself denies that he is God by saying  that God is greater than Jesus(John 14:28) which means that Jesus is not God's co-equal so Jesus is not God!  How can Jesus be God when Jesus says in John 5:30: �I can of mine own self do nothing...� ? Why do you Christians worship a powerless man?

We Muslims do not worship any men, animals, idols, images for they are the creations of God. We worship Allah....Who is Allah?

"He is God; there is no god but He. He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God; there is no god but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of the Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God, the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the Almighty, the All-Wise� (Quran 59:22-24).

             � There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them, and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth. The preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious� (Quran 2:255).

             People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth.

             � The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not "Three". Refrain; better it is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him -- (He is) above having a son� (Quran 4:171).

There is no God but God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

This is the belief of Christians.

George wrote: Muslim BMZ said something that kind of floored me.  He said: "Both the Jews and the Christians do NOT worship the Muslim God known by the name of Allah." What do the rest of the Muslims on this site think about this?

What BMZ said is absolutely right !

salman wrote: George wrote: Muslim BMZ said something that kind of floored me.  He said: "Both the Jews and the Christians do NOT worship the Muslim God known by the name of Allah." What do the rest of the Muslims on this site think about this? What BMZ said is absolutely right !

Salman,

Then you don't believe that Allah is YHYH.  And you don't believe in the same God that Jesus believed in.

Peace

George wrote: salman wrote: [QUOTE=George] Muslim BMZ said something that kind of floored me.  He said: "Both the Jews and the Christians do NOT worship the Muslim God known by the name of Allah." What do the rest of the Muslims on this site think about this? What BMZ said is absolutely right !

Salman,

Then you don't believe that Allah is YHYH.  And you don't believe in the same God that Jesus believed in.

__________________________________________________________

My response to George...Do you believe in Allah? If your answer is YES then I will be your brother....If you believe in Allah why don't you worship Him, accept His last messenger the prophet Muhammad and practise the teachings of Quran? I hope someday you will be a Muslim just like those Christian missionaries who have embraced Islam!

The remarkable outcome of a dialogue between Muslim scholars and Christian priests: http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=403 - Delegation of Christian Priests Convert to Islam at Climax of Muslim-Christian Dialogue   http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=403 - http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?art icleid=403

Thread title:  �Jews and Christians and Allah�

What says an authoritative representative from Jewry?

Moses Maimonides:

�The Christians are idolaters.  The first day of the week is their festival [�] The Ishmaelites [Muslims] are not considered pagan in any sense.  No trace of paganism is left in their speech and in their hearts.  They confess the Unity of God in its strict and unconditional meaning.  They may be deluded and in error in various matters, but concerning monotheism they are not at all mistaken.�

Serv

Ref:  Minkin, Jacob S., The Teachings of Maimonides, Jason Aronson, Inc., 1987, ISBN 0-87668-953-5, p. 319

salman wrote: George, you need to know who Allah is

I know who God is; Jesus revealed Him to me.

salman wrote: , you need to get more information regarding Allah, you christians claim so many false things regarding Jesus about cucifixion

Jesus said that he would die.  His death is an historical fact.  I believe that the Surah in the Qur'an has been misinterpreted--a couple of modern Muslim scholars agree--and that it actually says that Jesus did die on the cross.

salman wrote: and you claim that Jesus is god which is also false, there is no god but Allah,

We claim that the only God there is incarnated the human body of Jesus.  Of course there is no God but God.

salman wrote: and you christians say Jesus is son of God, how can God have son, Allah has clearly stated in the Qur'an that Allah does not beget anyone nor was he begotten, conceptions of you christians regarding God are completely wrong, you are in error, time is there for you george to accept the truth, to accept Islam, the truth is Islam.

Unfortunately for the Qur'an, even the Jews agree that YHVH has sons in the figurative/relationship sense.  If Allah says he has no sons even in the figurative/realtionship sense, then Allah cannot be YHVH.

No Christian (except possibly the Mormons, who weren't around until the 18-1900'sAD) believes that Jesus was the literal son of God.  I understand your confusion though because the Qur'an seems to imply that Christians believe that God had sex with Mary and produced Jesus--not so.  Even the commentary in the Qur'an says this.

"Begotten" means "one of a kind" or "unique."  It does not been begetting like humans beget other humans.

Peace

Servetus wrote: What says an authoritative representative from Jewry? Moses Maimonides: �The Christians are idolaters.  The first day of the week is their festival � The Ishmaelites [Muslims] are not considered pagan in any sense.  No trace of paganism is left in their speech and in their hearts.  They confess the Unity of God in its strict and unconditional meaning.  They may be deluded and in error in various matters, but concerning monotheism they are not at all mistaken.� Serv Ref:  Minkin, Jacob S., The Teachings of Maimonides, Jason Aronson, Inc., 1987, ISBN 0-87668-953-5, p. 319

Why does it matter what the Jews say?  The first day of the week is observed because that is when Jesus rose from the dead.

The Jews also say that Jesus was the product of Mary and a Roman soldier.  Do you believe that?

Peace

George,

Thread title:  �Jews and Christians and Allah�

That, among other reasons, is why it matters what �the� Jews say.

Serv 

George,

The Jews are strictly monotheistic. It is just One God Almighty for them and same goes for the Muslims.

Christians do say there is One and only one God but then they need a Trinity to explain that One God, while the Jews and the Muslims need none.

You just said today:"We claim that the only God there is incarnated the human body of Jesus.  Of course there is no God but God."

So, what you are saying now is that the same One God entered and lived in the body of Jesus, the man on Earth, got persecuted and killed by crucifixion and rose up and went back to Heavens. Is that so and correct? Mind you, we are not even mentioning or discussing the Holy Spirit here.

Servetus wrote: George, Thread title:  �Jews and Christians and Allah� That, among other reasons, is why it matters what �the� Jews say. Serv

I know what the title of this thread is.  It matters now what some Jews say.  They misunderstand just as Muslims do.

Peace

bmzsp wrote: George, The Jews are strictly monotheistic. It is just One God Almighty for them and same goes for the Muslims. Christians do say there is One and only one God but then they need a Trinity to explain that One God, while the Jews and the Muslims need none. You just said today:"We claim that the only God there is incarnated the human body of Jesus.  Of course there is no God but God." So, what you are saying now is that the same One God entered and lived in the body of Jesus, the man on Earth, got persecuted and killed by crucifixion and rose up and went back to Heavens. Is that so and correct? Mind you, we are not even mentioning or discussing the Holy Spirit here.

BMZ, we Christians speak of the Trinity because that is how God revealed Himself.

You have to admit that Jesus spoke of the Son (him) and the Father and the Holy Spirit of God.

Muslims think that God has no Holy Spirit; they think that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit; Christians believe in the angel Gabriel but make a distinction between an angel and God's Holy Spirit; the Comforter is God's Holy Spirit at work in the world now.

Even the Jews believe that God has sons in the figurative/relationship sense.  It is an expression explaining the Father/son relationship.

Muslims don't use the term "Father" when speaking of God.  Why not?  Jesus taught us to pray "Our Father...." and he also told us to pray in his name to the Father.

Peace

George,

�Why does it matter what the Jews say?�

You asked.  I answered (by reminding you of the thread title).  That�s (still) why it matters.

�... Most Jews for certain would tell you that they do not worship the Muslim God Allah and most Christians would tell you the same ��

Compare the former part of your statement here with the opinion expressed by Maimonides above.

Serv

george, it would be better if you ignore my post and see what AbRah2006 responded to you, that is the correct response.

AbRah2006 wrote: My response to George...Do you believe in Allah? If your answer is YES then I will be your brother....If you believe in Allah why don't you worship Him, accept His last messenger the prophet Muhammad and practise the teachings of Quran? I hope someday you will be a Muslim just like those Christian missionaries who have embraced Islam! The remarkable outcome of a dialogue between Muslim scholars and Christian priests: http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=403 - Delegation of Christian Priests Convert to Islam at Climax of Muslim-Christian Dialogue   http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?art icleid=403 - http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?art icleid=403

Allah has mentioned in the Qur'an that if any one follows any other religion other than Islam he is among the losers.

even if any one believes in god but follows some other religion, he will remain in hell fire forever.

Allah states in the Holy Qur'an:

"The Religion in the sight of Allah is Islam." (Qur'an http://www.islamworld.net/quran/quran/3.html#19 - 3:19 )

"If unyone desires a religion other than Islam (Submission to Allah), Never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (their selves in the hell fire)."(Qur'an http://www.islamworld.net/quran/quran/3.html#85 - 3:85 )

In addition, Islam is the only religion prevailing over all other religions. Allah states in the Holy Qur'an:

"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:..." (Qur'an http://www.islamworld.net/quran/quran/5.html#48 - 5:48 )

salman

salman wrote: george, it would be better if you ignore my post and see what AbRah2006 responded to you, that is the correct response. AbRah2006 wrote: My response to George...Do you believe in Allah? If your answer is YES then I will be your brother....If you believe in Allah why don't you worship Him, accept His last messenger the prophet Muhammad and practise the teachings of Quran? I hope someday you will be a Muslim just like those Christian missionaries who have embraced Islam!

I believe in God and I worship God.  I do not accept Muhammad as a messenger of God.  If I believe in God and I worship God, why do I have to believe in Muhammad too?  The Jews believe in and worship God and according to Muslims that means that they are saved without believing in Muhammad.

salman wrote: Allah has mentioned in the Qur'an that if any one follows any other religion other than Islam he is among the losers.

Christians and Jews submit to God.

salman wrote: even if any one believes in god but follows some other religion, he will remain in hell fire forever.

I believe that BMZ once said that the Jews would be saved without believing in Muhammad.  He can correct me if I am mistaken.

salman wrote: Allah states in the Holy Qur'an: "The Religion in the sight of Allah is Islam." (Qur'an http://www.islamworld.net/quran/quran/3.html#19 -

Islam simply means submission to God.  Jews and Christians are "Muslims" in that sense.

salman wrote: "If unyone desires a religion other than Islam (Submission to Allah), Never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (their selves in the hell fire)."(Qur'an http://www.islamworld.net/quran/quran/3.html#85 -

See above.

salman wrote: In addition, Islam is the only religion prevailing over all other religions. Allah states in the Holy Qur'an: "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:..." (Qur'an http://www.islamworld.net/quran/quran/5.html#48 -

Notice 5:48 says that the Surah confirms the scriptures that came before the Qur'an.  It does not.

"Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabeans; whoever believes in God and the last day and does what is right, shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or regret."  Surah 2:62

Peace

George wrote: I believe in God and I worship God.  I do not accept Muhammad as a messenger of God.  If I believe in God and I worship God, why do I have to believe in Muhammad too?  The Jews believe in and worship God and according to Muslims that means that they are saved without believing in Muhammad.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last messenger of Allah and has been sent as a mercy to all creation. If Allah would not have created Muhammad, Allah would have created nothing. So Muhammad is so special to Allah. If you believe in God you need to believe that Muhammad is His servant and last Prophet and then you become a muslim.

George wrote: Christians and Jews submit to God.

Submissions of Jews and Christians are not accepted by God. The only religion accepted in the sight of Allah is Islam.

George wrote: I believe that BMZ once said that the Jews would be saved without believing in Muhammad.  He can correct me if I am mistaken.

BMZ has given you the wrong information. Jews, Christians and all those who follow any other religion othet than Islam will be cast into the hell-fire.

George wrote: Islam simply means submission to God.  Jews and Christians are "Muslims" in that sense.

NO you do not submit to God in the right way as it has been prescribed by God. For that you need to follow the commandments of Prophet Muhammad and follow the Qur'an only then will you become a Muslim.

AND THE ONLY RELIGION TO BE FOLLOWED BY THE ENTIRE HUMANITY IS ISLAM. IF ANYONE FOLLOWS ANY OTHER RELIGION HE IS AMONG THE BIGGEST LOSERS !

"Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabeans; whoever believes in God and the last day and does what is right, shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or regret."  Surah 2:62

[/QUOTE]

You did not quote the verse in the correct way. The actual translation of the verse is as follows -

2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

It was meant for that particular time, that is, the time before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Those Jews, Christians, Sabians who believed in God and the last day and who followed their respective Prophet's teachings, they would be rewarded by their Lord.

But at present, the only Prophet to be followed is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the only Lord to be worshipped is Allah and the only religion to be followed is Islam.

DavidC wrote: salman wrote: It was meant for that particular time, that is, the time before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Those Jews, Christians, Sabians who believed in God and the last day and who followed their respective Prophet's teachings, they would be rewarded by their Lord. Can you please explain this idea that parts of the Qu'ran are invalidated and can now be safely ignored?

Neither I am invalidating it nor I am ignoring it. It is a verse from the Qur'an and I being a Muslim will never ignore a verse from the Qur'an nor invalidate it. It is a fact. And I am explaining what this verse actually means.

2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

At that time when the verse was revealed all Jews and Christians had not converted to Islam, and they were following thorah and bibleTill then they followed what was revealed before quran and ofcourse theyhad to believe in one Allah and be rightious Later when the order came to follow Quran and Prophet Mohdammed  pbh They all had change and those who did not are non believers

salman_s,

Can you prove that Muhammad was a prophet of God?  Why should anyone believe it?  The Jews and Christians compare the revelations that God sent down prior to the Qur'an and find them very contradictory.

There is no proof that Muhammad was a prophet; God did not announce him; he could not do signs and wonders as Moses and Jesus did.

Christians and Jews find no convincing argument to believe in Muhammad. 

Peace

George,

"Can you prove that Muhammad was a prophet of God?  Why should anyone believe it?"

Can you prove that John the Baptist was a prophet of God? Why should anyone believe it?

OK, that was an answer to cop-out questions. But I found this very interesting from you:"The Jews and Christians compare the revelations that God sent down prior to the Qur'an and find them very contradictory."

The Jews and Christians? Are you speaking for both collectively? As far as my knowledge is concerned the Jews DO NOT even acknowledge Christian Scripture NT and they even do not acknowledge Christian OT.

"There is no proof that Muhammad was a prophet; God did not announce him; he could not do signs and wonders as Moses and Jesus did."

First, the one God "announced" was not accepted. Second, Moses was living in Egypt, not the Meccan Valley and not in Medinah, where the Jews and Christians  had already settled for a long, long time.

The Pharoahs were there even 1,500 years before Jesus. They were neither People of the Book nor had any Book of their own. All they had was might and brutal power. That is why Moses was sent with  a big stick, not with a book. Those miracles had to be performed to subdue the Pharoah and his hosts.

Jesus was sent to a people who had the books and tablets, who had everything from God and yet differed, strayed and were turning rebellious against God. His job was to make them read and learn from the books, which he taught. They even had libraries, etc. they had forgotten the past miracles and it was time to show them miracles as they only relied on such. That is why Jesus did not bring any new book for them. He showed a few miracles, just talked to them and taught. His personal teachings were called Injeel, which are not the four gospels and letters written by the four and Paul.

In case of Muhammad, the Arabs had no books and were not the People of the Book. The Jews and Chrsitians living among them were a minority. The Arabs were very scholarly and poetic people. They were not like Pharoah and his hosts. They loved to argue, debate and exchange knowledge. There was no need to show them miracles and moreover it was no more showing of miracles as God was fed up with that. It was time to reason with man through an Intellectual discourse. That is why Qur'aan was given to him and Qur'aan in itself is a highly intellectual discourse between God and Mmuhammad. All arguments, questions raised and answers provided. Finally, Muhammad brought not only his Arabs but many Jews and Christians to the One True God Almighty within  23 years and successfully completed God's mission.

The grand prose and poetry of Qur'aan shook the conscience of the average Arab disbeliever and only the words of God Almighty worked. An example of a verse in which God Almighty talks about faithfully carrying the heavy responsibility of Qur'aan"

"If We had given this Qur'aan to a mountain, you would have seen it crumbling to dust from the fear of Allah and WE give such examples for people that they may reflect."

I hope you will not ask me how placing a book on mountain top can crumble a mountain? 

There is another verse told by God Almighty in Qur'aan, that moved those Arabs to tears in the days of the prophet:

"We offered this Trust/Responsibilty to Heavens, the Earth and the mountains, they sincerely refused as they could not bear the responsibility to carry for they were afraid but the man went straight without understanding to carry the responsibilty."  

That one book Qur'aan convinces us of his being a Prophet, for no other book can match Qur'aan's grandeur, eloquence, language, prose, poetry and arguments.

"People of the Book! ... Stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that hath come to you from YOUR LORD. It is the revelation that has come to thee from THY LORD." (ibid. vs. 68).

"AND DISPUTE YE NOT WITH THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK ... BUT SAY: WE BELIEVE IN THE REVELATION WHICH HAS COME DOWN TO US AND THAT WHICH CAME DOWN TO YOU". (S. Ankabut 29:46).

Yes, the revelation that has come to thee from they Lord. Not from Paul, or the Council of Nicea.

We believe in the teachings of Jesus, the Injeel. Where do these teaching appear? Which Gospels were chosen by the Council of Nicea, and which were discarded as heretical and not in standing with the beliefs of the Council?

We believe that the revelations sent down to the people of the book, Jews and Christians, have been corrupted by men from the original form. They are no longer the unadulterated Word of God.

I ask once again for anyone to show me where it is written in simple language, straight out and to the point: that Jesus said "I am God", or where it is written, before the Council of Nicea, that God stated: "I am a Trinity, a Godhead, I am One but I am Three, I am Three but I am One.".

George wrote: There is no proof that Muhammad was a prophet; God did not announce him; he could not do signs and wonders as Moses and Jesus did. Christians and Jews find no convincing argument to believe in Muhammad.  Peace

Well, Jews find no convincing argument to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, much less God Himself. Strange to align yourself with those who do not believe in Jesus at all to disprove the Prophethood of Mohammed.

As far as miracles, the Quran is a miracle itself. Perhaps since the last Prophet God sent who could perform miracles such as healing, was actually made into God by man, it was decided something more cerebral might be better.

Cyril wrote: Islam is born in the 7th century. It is unknown before that time. So Muslims had to give themselves antiquity by annexing the history of Judaism and Christianity. One of the signs of that "annexing" is the play on the word islam or muslim.  They innocently begin with the definition that a muslim (without capital letter) is someone who submits to God. Of course, by that definition Jews and Christians are muslims, and all prophets from the Bible are. Once they have made their point, a muslim becomes a Muslim and the plain submitting to God becomes the submitting to Allah, to the Quran, to Muhammad.

Well, if what you surmise is true, then why didn't Muslims (with a capital letter) annex the part of history that believes Jesus is God? Or by annexing the Jewish belief that Jesus was not even the Messiah? Or, by annexing the belief in the Trinity?

All of these corruptions of scripture were already in place by the time the Prophet Mohammed received his first revelation.

Yes, Islam is all a sinister plot in which word play is an integral part.

No wait, which religion is it that states it is almost written that there is a Trinity? It is hinted at, there are clues... And which religion is it that says: "I am the Son of Man" actually means I am God? Or is it: "I am who you believe I am" that means I am God? Or that praying to the Father is actually praying to himself? That asking "Why have you forsaken me?" is actually asking himself why he has forsaken himself?

Yeah, talk about innocent word play.....

DavidC wrote: Nuhummad did do one little miracle at the very end of 10 Bukhari.  It was a modest version of Jesus' feeding the multitudes.  On a general note, I think the existence and success of Islam is a miracle.  Mishmish - Qu'ran 6:85 directly states John was a prophet. I still do not see how Nicea and the canonization of the Bible is relevant.  God knew the bible had been edited, and said so in the Qu'ran.  Given that fact, he STILL made the Quranic statements mentioned regarding Christians and the Bible. The bible known to Muhummad, the one referred to by God in the Qu'ran, and the one in use by Christians today are identical save minor translational differences.   When Muhummad and the Qu'ran talk about the Bible, they are undoubtedly speaking of the very same  document we read today.

I am confused, I never denied the Prophethood of John. Muslims do believe that John was a Prophet(PBUH).

But, I have a question. If the Prophet John recognized Jesus as the Savior, why didn't he and his followers join Jesus and become part of the flock? Why did he keep his own followers independent of Jesus?

I will have to reread the Ayats in the Quran about Gospels. I do not want to write anything incorrect.

The Quran

George wrote: Can you prove that Muhammad was a prophet of God?

Evidences of Muhammad's Prophethood

http://www.islaam.com/Scholar.aspx?id=114 - Imam Ali Ibn Abi al `Izz al-Hanafi

The Islamic Creed - Sharh Al `Aqidah At Tahawiyyah
Commentary by Ali Ibn Abi al `Izz al Adhru`I, Abridged by Abdul Mun`im Saleh Al `Ali Al `Izzi
� 2000 Al Attique Publishers

And (we believe) that Muhammad is His chosen slave, the selected Prophet and an approved Messenger.

The three terms: 'chosen', 'elected' and 'approved,' are more or less synonyms. The point of note here is that a man's perfection lies in how true a slave he is to Allah the Most High. The more true slave a man is, the more perfect and the higher in rank he is. Anyone who believes that the creation can get out of the bond of slavery to Allah, howsoever he may achieve that, and attains higher status with Him, is the most ignorant of His creations. Allah said:

Further, Allah spoke of the Prophet, Muhammad, as a slave in all those places He wished to honor him. He said:

(As against the above) most theologians and polemicists have argued in favor of the greatness of the Prophets and Messengers on the strength of their miracles. No doubt, miracles are strong evidences. But, evidences are not restricted to miracles. For, the most truthful, as well as the greatest liars, claim to be Prophets. But, so far as the discerning minds are considered, this does not cast any doubt on the affair. Rather, the surrounding details speak for themselves. We know that there are several ways by which people can distinguish between a true claimant and a false one even In ordinary affairs. So, what about claims to Prophethood? Hassan b. Thabit well said:

Never did a false prophet rise but his ignorance, lies, corrupt ways, and the devil's hold of him, have been so apparent to anyone endowed with some common sense that he had no difficulty in discovering his falsity. That is because there is no recourse to a Prophet but to order some things and forbid some others. Thus, It is in the scheme of things that he should do things that render his truthfulness manifest. On the other hand, an imposter too cannot escape but do some things and inform (about the Unseen) exposing himself in so doing, in ways more than one. An authentic Prophet is just the opposite of him. To be sure, if there were to be two claimants to Prophethood, one an imposter and the other a true one, then, the matter will definitely end with one's falsehood being exposed and the other's authenticity becoming clear: even if it takes some time. Truthfulness and virtuosity go hand in hand. Similarly, falsehood and perversion go hand in hand. The Prophet, peace be upon him, said in a report preserved in the Sahihayn (Bukhari and Muslim): "Adhere to the truth. For truth leads to piety, and piety leads to Paradise. A man keeps on uttering and pursuing the truth until he is recorded as 'a truthful' with Allah. And, beware of lies. For lies lead to impiety and impieties lead to the Fire. A man keeps on lying, and pursuing lies until he is written 'a liar' with Allah."

Now, when know that a simple thing as the truthfulness of a man, or his falsehood, is apparent from his behavior, then how can a false prophet avoid being detected? No one can fail to distinguish the true prophet from a false one.

We know that Khadijah, Allah be pleased with her, knew the truthfulness of the Prophet from personal experience. Consequently, at the time of his first revelation when he expressed his apprehension in words: "I fear for my life," she responded, "Never. By Allah, He will never let you down. For you join the kin, speak truth, carry (the load of) the feeble, honor the guest, work for the destitute, and lend support to just causes."

Najashi asked for recitation of what the Prophet claimed to be receiving. He too, when he heard a portion of the revelation, remarked: "By God, this and what Moses had brought have the same lamp as their source."

Warqah b. Nawfal said something close to it when he was told about what the Prophet had experienced. Warqah was no ordinary person. He had converted to Christianity and was learned enough to be able to write the Gospels in Arabic. When Khadijah, Allah be pleased with her, told him about what the Prophet had received, Warqah said: 'This is the same Message that Moses received."

Further, Allah the Most High has left to survive some of the signs of how He helped His Messengers and how He destroyed those nations that cried lies to them, such as the signs of the Flood, the drowning of Fir'awn and his armies, etc. When Allah narrated the stories of prophets after prophets in the chapter tided Al-Shu'ara', such as those of Musa, Ibrahim, Nuh and others. He followed up every episode with the words:

As for us, we know from reliable traditions of the past detailing the lives of the prophets, of the pious men, as also of their adversaries, to feel assured that they were true. This can be realized in ways more than one:

Firstly, they had forewarned their people of the humiliating chastisement that would descend upon them if they remained obdurate rejecters.

Secondly, what followed as a consequence when it became apparent that the people were not going to believe, such as, drowning of Fir'awn and the people of Nuh, etc.

Thirdly, anyone who studied the life and works of the Prophets will be convinced that they bore a high character so that the question of their speaking an untruth was out of question.

As for our Prophet, his case is so obvious that denying his message is tantamount to denying Allah the Most High Himself and alleging tyranny on his part - high above that Allah is.

To explain: If someone thought that Muhammad, on whom be peace, was not a Prophet, rather a tyrant ruler, then, it implies that he ascribed a lie to God, brought before the people something not revealed by Him, then, continued to declare the lawful as unlawful and the unlawful as lawful, declared the old Scriptural Laws null and void, slew the people, and destroyed the true followers of earlier Prophets. Yet, he is led to victories after victories. He claimed that all that was by Allah's command sent down to him. And the Lord God Himself watched him do all that in His Name, annihilating the followers of truth and continuing to lie for no less than twenty-three years. Indeed, Allah seem to have helped him achieve all that, let him overcome everyone, prepared the grounds in supernatural circumstances to lead him to victories. Moreover. He even answered his prayers, destroyed those opposed to him and raised his name over all others. Now, for Allah to let someone commit all that, in His Name, and, instead of uprooting him, help him in his plans, is only possible if Allah Himself is a tyrant, an oppressive Being, and a transgressor. Inevitably, that would lead the people to the belief that this world has no Creator nor a Lord above all. Had there been one, he would have stopped this person from doing all that. Indeed, He would have punished him with an exemplary punishment for the satisfaction of the rest of the world. The 'no action' response does not befit even an ordinary king of this world. How then does it fit the King of kings and the Ruler of all rulers?

We do not deny that many liars have been successful in their own days, and attained glory. But, firstly, they did not succeed wholly, and secondly, the new situation they helped to create did not last long. In time, Allah's Messengers and their followers did away with all that they had established. This has been the Sunnah of Allah with the nations of the past. Indeed, even the unbelievers knew that. Allah said:

(That is, even the pagans were pretty sure that if the Prophet was phony he would be destroyed and, therefore, the best recourse was to wait for the Divine intervention).

"The miracle of the Qu'ran is not just the written word.  The fact that people believe in and have preserved the Qu'ran for so long, coupled with the success of Islam, is a miracle."

That is a great comment, David.  Thanks

BMZ

AnnieTwo wrote: Cyril wrote: DavidC Could you for example tell me what is original (I mean an original religious doctrine that cannot be found in other religions) in the Quran? You tell me most of it is original. Just give me a few examples. One original thing is in my mind at the moment that is the doctrine of abrogation. Oh abrogation is a very interesting subject.  Within less than 23 years Allah abrogated 500 sayings, according to some sources, less according to others.  This is practically unheard of in the Holy Bible. Annie

Don't Christians believe the New Testament to almost completely abrogate the Old Testament? Even though Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Cyril wrote: DavidC You said that most of the Quran is original so I thought I would get a long list a new things. I was wondering what ribaa meant until I thought about usury. It is forbidden by the Quran and by the Bible (Leviticus 25:35-37), so nothing new. I agree with you that the ban of alcohol is new. Does that ban concern all intoxicants? The belief in Jinns existed in Arabic paganism.

Jinns existed before the revelations were sent to the Prophet Mohammed(PBUH). They are not pagan related, they are creatures created by Allah of fire and they also have free will.

Yes, the Bible forbids the usury as does the Quran. The Quran is very specific and forceful about this, and Muslims take this very seriously.

You say that Jesus was a Jew so it is only natural for him to use the Old Testament in his teaching. Yet according to the New Testament, and most of the Christians on this forum, Jesus' teaching changed the Laws of the Old Testament into a new covenant. Therefore, most of the books of the Old Testament are no longer relevant to Christians, but to Judaism only.

So, Jesus was born a Jew, but was never REALLY a Jew in his beliefs or his teachings.

We believe that the Quran corrects and completes the Message of God sent down to all of the Prophets and Messengers. There are bound to be similarities, as there is only One God.

The Quran established the prayers, the rights of women, (which were woefully missing before), division of inheritance, re-established the practice of worshipping God alone with no intermediary needed, it corrects the misconceptions held about earlier Prophets: The Prophet Lot committed incest, the Prophet Noah was a drunk, These were Prophets of God, they were the best of men. The Quran teaches Eve was NOT a sinful temptress who tricked Adam into sin, and that when both Adam and Eve sinned, they sought God's forgiveness and He gave it.  It teaches that man was created to be vicegerents of the earth, that our place here is not because of original sin, but rather what we were created to do. It teaches that God is the Most Merciful and Oft Forgiving.

As far as revering God, the Prophets, and the Messengers of God, the Quran far outshines Biblical texts.