It was a joy when slightly more than two weeks ago, the Japanese worshipped me but now I have a different problem. Now people are trying to make me worship a man, Jesus.

I live on the 16th storey and there are four apartments to a floor. Out of the blue, four nice Evangelists have moved in and taken up the four apartments on the 17th storey.

As I entered my lift lobby this evening, I was greeted by my four new happy and smiling vertical neighbours. I returned their greetings but made a mistake of extending greetings upon greetings.

They invited me to come up and hear the word of the Lord. They asked me if I believed in God. I kept quiet.

Important Note: There are two things that I admire most about Jesus, one he would keep quiet after he had said something or was asked something silly and the other when he said not to worry.

They asked me if I was a Muslim or a Hindu and it was then I said,"You mean, the Holy Cow and the Holy Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv!"

They said,"No, brother! We will show you the true Trinity and you will be surprised." One of them already gave me the example of Water, Ice and Vapour, which I refuted in the lift and they have invited me to their preaching on Thursdays at their place, where I will be taught and shown the way by their experts.

I will report on the teachings and the progress as and when I can.  

They said,"No, brother! We will show you the true Trinity and you will be surprised." One of them already gave me the example of Water, Ice and Vapour, which I refuted in the lift and they have invited me to their preaching on Thursdays at their place, where I will be taught and shown the way by their experts.

Dear bmzsp

Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father + one person, God the Son + one person, God the Holy Ghost = one person, God the What? Is this English or is this gibberish?

The so-called true Trinity of the Evangelists : Water, Ice and Vapour

water, water the vapour + water ,water the ice + water, water the liquid =  Water, what the what? Is this English or is this gibberish?

I'm with david

I am curious as to what happens in your lessons

BMZ, I like it when you said this about Jesus: "one he would keep quiet when he had said something" that is funny, I didn't know you could keep quiet while speaking  hehehe

Angel,

Edited. Thanks. 

David: Will keep you posted.

Since you guys have to wait till the next Thrusday, here is something interesting from the Hindu mythology. In order to understand this, one must keep John in mind for his famous opening sentence "In the beginning there was the Word."

The Hindu mythology explains what the Word was:

Brahma is the Creator and naturally he created everything. Then he made two more gods Vishnu and Shiv. Vishnu loved destruction so he took on the portfolio of being the god of Destruction. Shiv, perhaps loved sex and became god of Sex.

One day, while all the three were busy with their affairs, Time came to Brahma and said,"I am going to come over you." Brahma replied, "You fool, how can you threaten me?"

Time said, "Watch out! I shall come upon you and inflict you for three days."

Brahma replied,"Very well, go ahead and try to come upon me, no harm will come to me and you cannot do anything to me."

Time said,"Ok! Brahma, your time starts tomorrow and you will never realise that you will be under me for three days." That will be your worse time!

After Time left, Brahma immediately created an ocean of murky and extremely salty waters above himself, so deep that nothing could penetrate to harm him and sat there for three days waiting for Time to come and inflict him.  There was no sign of Time and nothing happened to Brahma at all.

After three days, Brahma removed the ocean protective cover and called for Time to appear before him. Time came and asked Brahma,"Yes?"

Brahma said, "I waited three days for you and there was no sign of you and nothing happened."

Time replied,"I had covered you for three days and forced you to sit deep down in the ocean of salty and murky waters." That was Me.

So, according to Hindu mythology, in the beginning there was nothing and the Word was Time or Time was the Word.

BMZ

BMZ,

Oh good, I see my missionaries have arrived.   

Peace

bmzsp wrote: It was a joy when slightly more than two weeks ago, the Japanese worshipped me but now I have a different problem. Now people are trying to make me worship a man, Jesus. I live on the 16th storey and there are four apartments to a floor. Out of the blue, four nice Evangelists have moved in and taken up the four apartments on the 17th storey. As I entered my lift lobby this evening, I was greeted by my four new happy and smiling vertical neighbours. I returned their greetings but made a mistake of extending greetings upon greetings. They invited me to come up and hear the word of the Lord. They asked me if I believed in God. I kept quiet. Important Note: There are two things that I admire most about Jesus, one he would keep quiet after he had said something or was asked something silly and the other when he said not to worry. They asked me if I was a Muslim or a Hindu and it was then I said,"You mean, the Holy Cow and the Holy Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv!" They said,"No, brother! We will show you the true Trinity and you will be surprised." One of them already gave me the example of Water, Ice and Vapour, which I refuted in the lift and they have invited me to their preaching on Thursdays at their place, where I will be taught and shown the way by their experts. I will report on the teachings and the progress as and when I can.

Bismillah,

More power to you!  Thanks for all of YOUR anti-evangelizing efforts, Brother!  I got tired of that a ways back. (That's hick talk in case y'all hadn't spotted it.)

Oh! George, look what you have done? It's four of them on 17th Storey.

They have gatherings, not noisy at all, they are peaceful but they are too sweet, which I feel is too much as it won't get them anywhere as far as I am concerned. 

One is an American, the second is an Australian, the third is an Indian and the fourth is a Chinese. I think, I will go after the Indian.  Did you give them the Google Earth Coordinates showing the location of my condominium? We have two local missionaries, staying in my block, who are on active duty in Vietnam and Cambodia and they have ganged up with these four! I was working very hard on those two but looks like my efforts would be ruined by the new arrivals. 

herjihad,

Assalaam Alaikum,

So far, from my past experience, after meeting me once, no evangelist has ever returned back with answers to my questions.

But the problem is these noble souls are living right above my ceiling!  Anyway, I have no choice but to love my vertical neighbours and I will tell them that Islam teaches that one should not just love the neighbour only but also the relatives, distant relatives, the man in distress, even travellers in the journey, the needy and the poor.

BR & Good Night

BMZ

BMZSP....Are those Evangelists nice to you? Have you ever meet their leaders? You will see how 'nice' they are.... Christian Evangelists like Jerry Vines (of Southern Baptist Convention), Pat Robertson (of 700 Club), Jerry Falwell (of Christian Moral Majority) and Franklin Graham (of Samaritan�s Purse), all known for their bigotry have degraded , insulted, and slandered Islam in the media etc! It is an irony that they are afraid to debate openly in the public!

AbRah,

They are very nice and sweet to me. They are sweet to evevryone but sweeter to me specially.  No, they are not of the types you mentioned.

They just want to make a Christian out of me.  Jesus was himself not a Christian, so how could one try to make me one?

Dear all, a question, before I go out.

I was at a friend's place this afternoon and read his Grandfather's Bible.

It said,"............Jesus hung his head and gave up the Holy Ghost." (please note, I am quoting from memory of what I read)

Was this "Holy Ghost" the same "Holy Spirit" that we talk about in our discussions?

Clarify please.

1. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&verse=30&version=8;9;31 - John 19:30
   
   • American Standard Version (ASV)
     When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.
     http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&verse=29&end_verse=31&version=8&context=context - John 19:29-31 (in Context) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&version=8&context=chapter - John 19 (Whole Chapter)
   • King James Version (KJV)
     When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
     http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&verse=29&end_verse=31&version=9&context=context - John 19:29-31 (in Context) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&version=9&context=chapter - John 19 (Whole Chapter)
   • New International Version (NIV)
     When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
     http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&verse=29&end_verse=31&version=31&context=context - John 19:29-31 (in Context) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&version=31&context=chapter - John 19 (Whole Chapter)

Thanks, David.

Having been so much used to write "the Holy" everyday in discussions, I made that mistake.

You are right, it was "...and he gave up the ghost", which must have meant, "he gave up his soul."

BMZ

Annie,

I didn't ask. I don't know yet. I feel it would be rude to ask them. Does it matter? I will try to dig it out nicely and let you know.

BMZ

Annie,

OK, I will ask and let you know.

Annie,

I checked with one of them and he told me they are Protestants. He said, "We are Protestants because we protest against the Catholic Church."

Is it right what the protestants do?

After hearing that, I feel as if the Protestants are something like a minority sect and are not the main stream Christians. Perhaps, you can throw some light on this.

BMZ

Anyway, I will go on Thursday.

Dear BMZ,

My advice is that you find and move to a new flat straightaway.  Not for your sake, of course, but for the sake of your missionary neighbors:  

Servie

bmzsp wrote: Annie, I checked with one of them and he told me they are Protestants. He said, "We are Protestants because we protest against the Catholic Church." Is it right what the protestants do? After hearing that, I feel as if the Protestants are something like a minority sect and are not the main stream Christians. Perhaps, you can throw some light on this. BMZ Anyway, I will go on Thursday.

No, they are very mainstream. They do not believe in the Papal authority. That set them at odds with the Catholic Church, and they were victims of the Inquisitions.

AnnieTwo wrote: bmzsp wrote: Annie, I checked with one of them and he told me they are Protestants. He said, "We are Protestants because we protest against the Catholic Church." Is it right what the protestants do? After hearing that, I feel as if the Protestants are something like a minority sect and are not the main stream Christians. Perhaps, you can throw some light on this. BMZ Anyway, I will go on Thursday. Protestants are outnumbered by the Catholics.  That does not mean that Catholics are on "the right track.  That does not mean that Protestants are not "main stream Christians."  I think that the main thing that Protestants object to as far as Catholics are concerned is that the Protestants go strickly by what the Bible says and the Catholics go by what their Pope says.  Catholics, for instance, go beyond what the New Testament says about Mary.  Protestants do not do that. If you got the response: "We are Protestants because we protest against the Catholic Church." Then they are not being honest with you.  There is no reason whatsoever that they shouldn't have said:  "We are Baptists" or "we are Mormons, or "We are Presbyterians." And what does it mean "we are Protestants because we protest against the Catholic Church mean?  How can someone be a Protestant because.....  A Protestant is a Protestant because he is a Protestant. Are you too shy to say "what is your demonination? Annie

Why do you Catholics and Protestants call each other the infidels or non-believers? Why did they torture and kill each other in the past in the name of Jesus? Why didn't you protest peacefully against each other?

Dear Servie,

"My advice is that you find and move to a new flat straightaway.  Not for your sake, of course, but for the sake of your missionary neighbors:   "

 I have always loved my heighbours. Time to go up for my evening prayers and then I proceedeth to my neighbours. May God bless them. Amen.

Will report back asap.

Annie,

I used to be a Sunni, a little bit Shia but now I am just a Muslim. I do not belong to any sect. Denomination-free now.

Thursday's Report:

It was a nice gathering full of holy men and holy women. The four Christian Mullahs sounded like Annie and George. Among the propective converts there was one like Fredi who was giving a tough time to the four Christian Mullahs.

Anyway, after the usual stuff, it was question time and I gave everyone a copy of my well-prepared questions and referred to Genesis 1:1-2 and asked them to explain, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters."

First, I was corrected on the word spirit in my question and we were told that it was the Spirit of God that hovered over the waters. I told them politely that I found the spirit of God written in the Jewish Bible.

I was told that the Spirit of God is very big and huge. Since the earth is so huge, imagine how big the Spirit of God was that it surrounded the entire globe to watch and that is how God is Omnipresent.

I then suggested: "Isn't easy to say that God watched and monitored the entire creation, instead of saying that the spirit or Spirit of God was hovering, which gives the impression as if God could not see himself? What was the reason of saying so in an ambiguous language? I have a body, I have a soul and I have my own eyes and I see things direct. Why could not God be able to see direct instead of God's spirit or Spirit doing so?

Secondly, God had already created the heavens and the earth, which means or confirms that the sun was already there.

Another speaker, who could not answer, said something strange and it sounds like coming from his Christian belief. He said,"Here is the first introduction to God the Father and God, the Holy Spirit working in tandem."

I told him that the Jews don't think so at all. They take it to mean that God created and watched.

It was then that our Fredi-like friend asked:"Where was Jesus at that point of time and what was he doing?" 

They have promised some more answers next week.

bmzsp wrote: I was told that the Spirit of God is very big and huge. Since the earth is so huge, imagine how big the Spirit of God was that it surrounded the entire globe to watch and that is how God is Omnipresent.

what about the universe

It was then that our Fredi-like friend asked:"Where was Jesus at that point of time and what was he doing?"

lol!

what did you say to this?

Angel wrote: bmzsp wrote: I was told that the Spirit of God is very big and huge. Since the earth is so huge, imagine how big the Spirit of God was that it surrounded the entire globe to watch and that is how God is Omnipresent. what about the universe

Allah is the One who owns us fully and nothing happens in the universe except as a result of His will

Allah says in the Qur'an in Chapter Ya-Sin 

Verily when He (Allah) intends a thing it is only that He says to it - Be ! and it is!

Angel:

lol!

what did you say to this?

I said, "Jesus was not born yet." He was born just 2,006 years ago. There was a slight chuckle there from a few only, but the American Evangelist Alan could not control his laughter. The Indian Evangelist showed some consternation on his face. The Chinese evangelist perhpas could not understand my English.. The Anglican Protestant jumped in and said,"Jesus was there before the beginning."

I said, "That would be one of my questions coming up later."

bmz, lol!  

a bit of a diverse responses.

bmzsp wrote: Annie, I checked with one of them and he told me they are Protestants. He said, "We are Protestants because we protest against the Catholic Church." Is it right what the protestants do? After hearing that, I feel as if the Protestants are something like a minority sect and are not the main stream Christians. Perhaps, you can throw some light on this. BMZ Anyway, I will go on Thursday.

Well, at least I know they aren't Mormon Missionaries.  You can tell a LDS Missionary at 10,000 paces.  They were, black suits, white shirts and name tags that say Elder Smith Church of Jesus Christ of LatterDay Saints.  They also wouldn't have called themselves Protestants.

I have only a couple of comments here....since it's obvious this is a "fun" thing for most of you, and I as the lone Catholic, hate to be a "spoil sport". 

First of all, from the description you give of the "fab four", they are more than likely NOT from any major or well-known Protestant denomination.  It is quite likely they are some sort of cult.  Either that or they have done what thousands of Protestants have done when dissatisfied with their church....they simply start a new one.

Second, I have no problem with ANYONE'S religion.  This is an individual decision for every human being on earth.  We cannot and should not force anyone to believe a certain way.  We can hope and/or pray they will accept this faith, or that faith, but ultimately it's up to the individual.

Lastly, as I have quite humbly stated previously, the Catholic Church has repeatedly acknowledged her mistakes during the Inquisition and Crusades.  Those involved in those long ago days hopefully repented from the sins....and if they did, I have no doubt our merciful God forgave them, as He promised he would do.  Also, Catholics are never to insult another person's beliefs or chosen church/faith.  It is a BIG sin.  We believe that all people who have a well formed conscience, and follow that conscience to the best of their ability, and make every effort to live an ethical, moral life will be judged accordingly on Judgement Day, and as the God we worship is a merciful God, He will be merciful toward them.  They will quite possibly/probably see God in paradise.  This goes for everyone who has lived a good, moral and just life. 

As a side note,  Annie, the Pope does very much follow the Bible.  He is guided by the power of the Holy Spirit in all that he does regarding Church teachings.  Catholics are Christians...in fact, we were the first Christians.  I am always amazed at how little many Protestants actually know about Catholicism.  There are so many lies, myths, misunderstandings it is very disheartening. 

Well, there is so much more I could try to explain, but it would serve no real purpose.  My main point in all this is that Catholics do not disrespect anyone's chosen faith or religion.  But we constantly hear insulting and rude remarks aimed at our faith.  It's sad, but that's life, and God comforts and strengthens us through it all.  I wish you peace, joy, and many blessings.....ALL of you.

Patty wrote:

 "I am always amazed at how little many Protestants actually know about Catholicism.  There are so many lies, myths, misunderstandings it is very disheartening."   "But we constantly hear insulting and rude remarks aimed at our faith." 

Patty, you could exchange Christians for Protestants and Islam for Catholicism and you would be experiencing our world...   Kinda tiring and sad, isn't it?

Mishmish said:

"Kinda tiring and sad, isn't it?"

You betcha!

God bless you, Mishmish!

Yes.  I am a Roman Catholic.  There are many verses in the Bible which refer to Mary's holiness and virginity (perpetual virginity).  I understand Protestantism too....my family is mixed with many Methodists and Baptists.  So I have good understanding of both, of the differences of opinions, etc. 

Jesus officially established HIS church here on earth when he gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter.  It was to be one church.  Catholic means "universal".....hence, we say in the Creed "one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  And we were until Martin Luther decided to break away over the selling of indulgences (which, of course was a sin), but he was a priest until then.  After that it just seemed that whenever an individual decided they disagreed with any doctrine or dogma, they just waddled off and started their own church with beliefs that "suited their tastes".  I think we can agree it is very difficult to live a Christian/Catholic life.  To REALLY live it.  But we do the very best we can.  We pray often everyday, we ask for repentence, we love God and "our neighbor as ourself", we forgive and turn the other cheek when we have been wronged.  These are not always easy things to do, but we have the Comforter to guide us and give us strength to carry on.

Even with our differences, Annie, I'm sure we agree on most issues.  We don't pray TO Mary and/or the saints.  We ask them to pray FOR us, or to intercede to the Father for us.  It's like calling up a prayer warrior here in town and asking him or her to "please pray for my Dad, he's very ill."  That's what we ask our Holy Mother of God and the saints to do.  The very same thing.  We do honor Mary, because she is very special.  She, out of all the women on earth, was chosen by God to be the mother of His son, our Lord Jesus Christ.  The Hail Mary, Ave Maria, comes from the Gospel of Luke. 

Anyway, I know we do agree on many important teachings.  I wish you happiness, great peace and joy in your life!

Hello Annie,

(You know how I hate "copy and paste" references, but I'll indulge you on this one).

Genesis 3:15

No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. But the first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer. The sentence against the first parents was accompanied by the Earliest Gospel (Proto-evangelium), which put enmity between the serpent and the woman: "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" ( http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen003.htm#15 - Genesis 3:15 ). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. The conqueror from the seed of the woman, who should crush the serpent's head, is http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm - Christ ; the woman at enmity with the serpent is Mary. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm - God puts enmity between her and http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm - Satan in the same manner and measure, as there is enmity between http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm - Christ and the seed of the serpent. Mary was ever to be in that exalted state of soul which the serpent had destroyed in man, i.e. in sanctifying grace. Only the continual union of Mary with grace explains sufficiently the enmity between her and http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm - Satan . The Proto-evangelium, therefore, in the original text contains a direct promise of the Redeemer, and in conjunction therewith the manifestation of the masterpiece of His Redemption, the perfect preservation of His virginal Mother from original sin.

Luke 1:28

The salutation of the http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06330a.htm - angel Gabriel -- chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace ( http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk001.htm#28 - Luke 1:28 ) indicates a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul, which finds its explanation only in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. But the term kecharitomene (full of grace) serves only as an illustration, not as a proof of the dogma.

Other texts

From the texts Proverbs 8 and Ecclesiasticus 24 (which exalt the Wisdom of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm - God and which in the liturgy are applied to Mary, the most beautiful work of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm - God's Wisdom), or from the Canticle of Canticles (4:7, "Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee"), no theological conclusion can be drawn. These passages, applied to the http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm - Mother of God , may be readily understood by those who know the privilege of Mary, but do not avail to prove the doctrine dogmatically, and are therefore omitted from the Constitution "Ineffabilis Deus". For the theologian it is a matter of conscience not to take an extreme position by applying to a creature texts which might imply the prerogatives of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm - God .

These are just a couple of the bibilical references to our Holy Mother's holiness.  There is much more...it helps if you know Latin or Greek, Hebrew too.  But maybe this will be of some help.

God's Peace!

Annie,

Patty explained her point well and now I can understand why Catholics love Mary so much. We too love Mary-am very much.

Catholics call Mary Mother of God. Mary was mother of Jesus. Jesus was God according to all Christians, so Mary is the Mother of God in that sense. I am looking at this from the Catholics' angle of view.

Do you mean to say that all Christians other than Catholics do not accept that Mary was the Mother of God?

Annie,

 Go ahead, have a pact or a pack!

Now a question in response to your comment: "Interestingly enough a charge comes from some Muslims I have encountered that Jesus did not respect his mother because he called her "woman" which in those days was a sign of respect.

So, my dear we can't win."

My question: If he could call his father Abba, why could he not call his mother Amma or Ammi or mother or Ma? Jesus never called his father Man! Of course we don't expect him to call his mother Mommy or Mum or by a word in the Koine Greek.  It is not true that the Jews were calling their mothers "woman". The Jews had a word for calling the mothers. They were not that rude.

Of course, you can't win on this point.

Patty,

�� We [Roman Catholics] don't pray TO Mary and/or the saints ��

I never understood it that way, Patty, and the issue might devolve to the differences, however subtle, between a �petition� and a �prayer.� In my experience (which, when it comes to Roman Catholicism is not insignificant, I would remind everyone), it is to Mary, the Mother of God (theotokos), that such invocations as the �Salve Regina� are clearly addressed.  I understand that the petition also involves a request for �intercession,� so no argument (for lack of a better word) there. 

Annie,

I am restricted to � hour at the moment on a public library computer and hence do not have time (yet) to adequately respond to your post in my �They say Mary hath begotten God?� thread, but please know that if I raise these at times admittedly problematic issues, it is not to encourage division and rancor.  Facts are, and I hope to delve into the matter more as that thread continues, there are significant differences between Roman Catholic and Protestant approaches to this issue (of Mary�s role as the Mother of God).  Often times, as I see it, the Protestant view, which tends toward neo-Nestorianism, more closely approximates that of Islam and hence that of Muslims, interestingly enough.  My memory fails, but I recall a Roman Catholic writer as having once said (granted, arguably) of Protestantism (in comparison to Islam) that �the Protestants have only a few superstitions the more and a prophet the less.�  Recall, as well, what were called the �Judaizing� tendencies of early Lutheranism and of Martin Luther himself (before he became, well, �disillusioned� with Jews for not accepting his �reformed� faith).  But these are, in a way, other topics. 

Stay tuned (and thanks to both of you for participating).

Best regards,

Serv

I can agree with petition, Serv, but not prayer.  I know the Salve Regina well, also the Hail Holy Queen....and many others of course.  Since you once were in a Jesuit school, I realize you know much about the Church.  There is a big difference between Catholic and Protestant faiths.  There is no doubt about that.  Half my family is Protestant, but we ALL respect each other's beliefs, and that is what I feel is important.  As I repeatedly say, I am not here to convert or change anyone's opinion.....rather, I am here to learn more about Islam, what is believed and why.....and to explain what I believe and why.  I am not here to cause anyone to lose their faith, but rather to learn from each other's faith.

Good to hear from you again, Buddy!

Here is why Jesus referred to His Mother, Mary, as "woman":

The Gospel of St. John relates two significant accounts which relate to Mary � the wedding feast of Cana and the Crucifixion. Of the first account we read:

�There was a marriage in Cana of Galilee, and the Mother of Jesus was there. And Jesus also was invited, and His disciples, to the marriage. And the wine failing, the Mother of Jesus said to Him, �They have no wine.� And Jesus said to her, �Woman, what is it to Me and to thee? My hour is not yet come.� His Mother said to the waiters, �Whatsoever He shall say to you, do ye�� (John 2:1-5).

Jesus Christ then proceeded to work His first public miracle at His Mother�s request. Everything related in the Gospels is inspired by God, and there is a reason for it. Does not this narrative of the wedding feast manifest the intercessory power of Mary with Jesus Christ, her Divine Son?

In the second account, also take from the Gospel of St. John, we read:

�There stood by the Cross of Jesus His Mother... When Jesus therefore had seen His Mother and the disciple standing whom He loved, He saith to His Mother: �Woman, behold thy son...�� (John 19:25-27).

Just as Eve cooperated with Adam in the Fall of mankind, the Blessed Virgin Mary cooperated with Jesus Christ in our redemption. She �stood by the Cross of Jesus.� What anguish, what sorrow did the Mother of Jesus experience at the foot of the Cross as she witnessed the sufferings and death of her Divine Son!

In both accounts, Jesus addressed Mary by the term woman. In Hebrew the word used by Jesus was a term which would be addressed to a queen or a woman of high rank. It was a term of great respect.

But why did Jesus Christ address His Mother by the term woman at these two significant moments in His life � at His first public miracle, and at His Crucifixion on the Cross?

Our Divine Lord wanted to clearly indicate that His Mother was the Woman spoken of in the Book of Genesis:

�I will put enmities between thee (Satan) and the Woman, between thy seed and her seed, and she shall crush thy head.�

Dear Annie,

I would never permit a "wedge" to be driven amongst or between any person's beliefs or religions.  All of us have free will, and what we choose to believe, or not believe is completely up to us as human beings.

God's Blessings.

�I can agree with petition, Serv, but not prayer.�

Understood, Patty.  And I thought so. 

�I know the Salve Regina well, also the Hail Holy Queen....and many others of course.  Since you once were in a Jesuit school, I realize you know much about the Church.  There is a big difference between Catholic and Protestant faiths.�

Understood.  Except for the fact that I am a rebel, and as we have discussed before, I generally prefer (or agree) with the Roman Catholics.  As I see it, sola scriptura Protestantism, although it did plenty of good, also gave rise to a many-headed hydra, to put it dramatically and controversially.  But that�s another topic.

�As I repeatedly say, I am not here to convert or change anyone's opinion.....rather, I am here to learn more about Islam, what is believed and why.....and to explain what I believe and why.  I am not here to cause anyone to lose their faith, but rather to learn from each other's faith.�

Same here.  In fact, if anyone tried to convert to my religion, I would change religions (or opinions) straightaway and on sheer principle of the matter.  That said, as far as I am concerned, the way you �let your light shine� (when you are not peeved) makes me (sometimes) want to run right back into the arms of Holy Mother Church .  That�s a good thing.

�Good to hear from you again, Buddy!�

Likewise, Patty, and thanks for responding.

Your friend,

Servie

Dearest Servetus,

You posted the following:

"That said, as far as I am concerned, the way you �let your light shine� (when you are not peeved)"

Umm, yeah, I'm working on that.  I do tend to get my back up when someone really steps on a nerve.  Drat...I'm really NOT perfect!

"makes me (sometimes) want to run right back into the arms of Holy Mother Church .  That�s a good thing. "

That's such a good thing!  I'm sure you know all the sayings, "Catholics can always come home."  OR "Come Home to Rome". How I would love to see you do that Servie, but of course that's your decision.  (I've got to double up on my Hail Mary's.)

Fondly,

Patty

I want to know more about Bmz adventure

Dear all,

Please remain Under Invasion Now. It is Thursday again and I will let you guys know what inspired, ooops! transpired.

Angel, please stay tuned.

Today's study class:

After preaching was over, it was a joy to start the question time. I had brought along my Jewish Scriptures according to Masoretic Text and I showed them the "spirit of God" while the Christian OT had "Spirit of God".

Instead of addressing my point that the spirit of God hovered over the waters, only meant that God was watching the creation, I was told that this is the First indication of the Dual nature of the One God of OT, who had not yet become the Triune God of the NT.  

I said, "If there were a Di-une or a Bi-une God then the Jews would have not been extremely monotheistic and the Jews do not believe in such concepts."

The answers, if any, would come perhaps next week. My next question was:"How old was Joseph when he married Mary?"

The answer was "Joseph was 80 and Mary was hardly 14." My next question was: "Were James and others the real children of Mary from Joseph?" The answer was: "They were Joseph's children from his other wife." I found this answer at least sensible that no man touched my sweet and noble mother Mary and she remained pure.

More, next week!

BMZ

I found this answer at least sensible that no man touched my sweet and noble mother Mary and she remained pure.

Bismillah,

People are NOT impure because they have had sex.   We make a ritual purification to separate our actions and sancitify the salat, but our souls remain pure as long as we obey our Lord or return to Him in repentence.

How about, "She remained virginal"?

BMZ,

�Instead of addressing my point that the spirit of God hovered over the waters, only meant that God was watching the creation, I was told that this is the First indication of the Dual nature of the One God of OT, who had not yet become the Triune God of the NT. � 

Welcome, my friend, to a corner of the complex, cosmogonical world of �Emanationism� and, ultimately, if your studies in Christianity progress, to the world of primarily Greek (neo-Platonic, or even Philonic) speculative theogony.  Origen rocks!   

For example (and disregarding Ein Soph for the moment), that the Monad (1) split into a Duad (2) and became a Triad (thus forming the upper sephirot) is visually, by means of diagram, explained here (though the text is in dispute).  One will note the similarities between this diagram and that of the historic �shield of the Trinity� posted elsewhere:

http://www.answers.com/topic/sephirot - http://www.answers.com/topic/sephirot

�I said, "If there were a Di-une or a Bi-une God then the Jews would have not been extremely monotheistic and the Jews do not believe in such concepts."�

Leaving the problematic St. Paul out of the discussion for the moment, perhaps you have not heard of either Philo of Alexandria or Moses de Lyon  ?

�The answers, if any, would come perhaps next week.�

I cannot wait to hear!  Please do keep us posted. 

Best regards,

Servie (goes to Sunday School with BMZ)

herjihad,

"How about, "She remained virginal"?"

That is more beautiful than the way I said.

BR & Salaams

BMZ

Dear All,

Sorry for the belated report from the 17th Sorey:

After the lecture, most of it was quite familiar to me, all present sang some Hymns from the Psalms.

For a moment, I was stunned when I heard. It seemed like most of the words were coming from Qur'aan translated in English. What struck me  was that the Hymn was praising ONLY God, The Most High, which is also the Title of a Surah in Qur'aan. There was no mention of Father, Son or the Holy Ghost in there. It was all Praise The Lord God Almighty, the Most High.

After, it was over, I asked, "You just praised the Lord God, The Most High and I am glad you did. Did David sing anything about Jesus, foretelling about him?" They replied,"Not that we have heard of but we will look into it. There must be something on this."

BMZ

Dear all,

Today there was no study but all of us had a good spicy BBQ at the pit but after every Hi and Hello with new folks, there was no discussion on kidneys and livers but only religion.

I was asking my favourite question which is how best one could describe Trinity. There was one gentleman who put it this way:

"You see God sometimes likes to be an Spirit, so He becomes a Spirit. Sometimes God wants to be like a son and when God is in serious mood, He goes back into the God mode."

I am still trying to digest that.