The title is catchy isn't it?

Sister Mishmish gave 10 reasons why Fred should be Muslim. I can give 10 reasons why we should choose Islam for other reasons. Actually in one of those statements was eternal paradise. I as a Muslim even with reading the Qur'an and reading some of the Hadith can be clearly convinced that non-Muslims are doomed for Hell. Hell exist here in this world for some and some live their lives only knowing what they were raised with. for our religious envoys this is enough to proseltyze and convert people to their faith.

I am perhaps more "liberal" in the sense of this theological belief for I believe that God is the most knowledgable of all of creation. This is a reason why we call God a supernatural deity, because he can defy all rules of reality. One of the reasons why I don't defined Godn in the sense of attributing to him like "the Most this" "the most that" except through formal Islamic greetings is because we contradict ourselves everytime. The underline question can be ask: "If God is the most merciful why would he condemn an atheist man to hell?" Good question.

What if that atheist is suffering from a complexity which stem from greif of losing a loved one or a crisis of faith? There are some many mysterious variables why we believe why we believe and none of us should define them with our doctrines. I've had missionaries call me "son of the devil" I've had members here say my mother is going to hell because she was a Christian. We sure limit God. We limit God with doctrine, with words even with food.

Eternal Paradise is being closes to God as possible and feeling an untainted and undying love from something far greater than your own spiritual being.  God the artisan, is the judge of all beings in the universe and like Plato said :"True knowledge comes after death."

ak_m_f wrote: Plato said :"True knowledge comes after death." I wonder how he came to this conclusion

Only one way to find out....

Dear Israfil... Assalamulikum to you. 

May I quote your word 'The underline question can be ask: "If God is the most merciful why would he condemn an atheist man to hell?" Good question.'

My brother....In Islam there are no fundamentalists, liberal , secular Muslims etc....In Islam there are only Muslims who obey Allah and His messenger the prophet Muhammad. The call of Islam, which is the call of all the prophets and messengers of old, is fundamentally to bring an understanding of the Creator to mankind at large. It is a call to all people to worship their Creator and Master with knowledge, clarity and sincerity. It is the essence of the first part of the Muslim�s declaration of faith and the testimony of belief that if understood and declared sincerely, enters a person into the fold of Islam:

In order to be a Muslim, that is, to surrender oneself to God, it is necessary to believe in the oneness of God, in the sense of His being the only Creator, Preserver, Nourisher, etc. But this belief, later called Tawhid Ar-Rububiyyah, is not enough. Many of the idolators knew and believed that only the Supreme God could do all this. But this was not enough to make them Muslims. To tawhid ar-rububiyyah, one must add tawhid al-'uluhiyyah. That is, one acknowledges the fact that it is God alone who deserves to be worshipped, and thus abstains from worshipping any other thing or being.

             Having achieved this knowledge of the one true God, man should constantly have faith in Him, and should allow nothing to induce him to deny truth.

             When faith enters a person's heart, it causes certain mental states that result in certain actions. Taken together, these mental states and actions are the proof for the true faith. The Prophet said:� Faith is that which resides firmly in the heart and which is proved by deeds�.

             Foremost among those mental stated is the feeling of gratitude towards God, which could be said to be the essence of ibada (worship).

Allah gives us a good brain, mind and freedom to decide whether we want to be a believer or non-believer and we will bear all the consequences of our choice.

The feeling of gratitude is so important that a non-believer is called 'kafir', which means 'one who denies a truth' and also 'one who is ungrateful'. Is it fair for Allah to send those non-believer to heaven after they have slandered, degraded, insulted or rejected Allah who has created them and give them life? Is it fair for Allah to send the non-believers to heaven after they have slandered, degraded, insulted or rejected the prophets who Allah sent to guide the non-believers to the true path of Allah?  Is it fair for Allah to send the non-believers to heaven after Allah has given them enough time to repent and worship Allah and follow His prophets? People will be held accountable for their deeds.

Quran 003: 056 
"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran 003: 057 
"As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."

In Islam, it is precisely the belief within the heart of an individual that is most important and that belief should then also have a profound impact upon outward deeds. Muslims believe that people will be held accountable for their deeds. Ultimately however, it is the inner qualities that a person possesses that Muslims believe Allah will judge to determine their everlasting fate.

A believer loves, and is grateful to God for the bounties He bestowed upon him, but being aware of the fact that his good deeds, whether mental or physical, are far from being commensurate with Divine favors, he is always anxious lest God should punish him, here or in the Hereafter. He, therefore, fears Him, surrenders himself to Him and serves Him with great humility. One cannot be in such a mental state without being almost all the time mindful of God. Remembering God is thus the life force of faith, without which it fades and withers away.

             The Qur'an tries to promote this feeling of gratitude by repeating the attributes of God very frequently. We find most of these attributes mentioned together in the following verses of the Qur'an:

Dear Israfil... Assalamulikum to you. 

May I quote your word 'The underline question can be ask: "If God is the most merciful why would he condemn an atheist man to hell?" Good question.'

Quran  Surah 55 - Al Rahman THE MOST GRACIOUS

055.001 (God) Most Gracious!

055.002 It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.

055.003 He has created man:

055.004 He has taught him speech (and intelligence).

055.005 The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed;

055.006 And the herbs and the trees - both (alike) bow in adoration.

055.007 And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice),

055.008 In order that ye may not transgress (due) balance.

055.009 So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance.

055.010 It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures:

055.011 Therein is fruit and date-palms, producing spathes (enclosing dates);

055.012 Also corn, with (its) leaves and stalk for fodder, and sweet-smelling plants.

055.013 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.014 He created man from sounding clay like unto pottery,

055.015 And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke:

055.016 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.017 (He is) Lord of the two Easts and Lord of the two Wests:

055.018 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.019 He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:

055.020 Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:

055.021 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.022 Out of them come Pearls and Coral:

055.023 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.024 And His are the Ships sailing smoothly through the seas, lofty as mountains:

055.025 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.026 All that is on earth will perish:

055.027 But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.

055.028 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.029 Of Him seeks (its need) every creature in the heavens and on earth: every day in (new) Splendour doth He (shine)!

055.030 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.031 Soon shall We settle your affairs, O both ye worlds!

055.032 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.033 O ye assembly of Jinns and men! If it be ye can pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, pass ye! not without authority shall ye be able to pass!

055.034 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.035 On you will be sent (O ye evil ones twain!) a flame of fire (to burn) and a smoke (to choke): no defence will ye have:

055.036 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.037 When the sky is rent asunder, and it becomes red like ointment:

055.038 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.039 On that Day no question will be asked of man or Jinn as to his sin.

055.040 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.041 (For) the sinners will be known by their marks: and they will be seized by their forelocks and their feet.

055.042 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.043 This is the Hell which the Sinners deny:

055.044 In its midst and in the midst of boiling hot water will they wander round!

055.045 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.046 But for such as fear the time when they will stand before (the Judgment Seat of) their Lord, there will be two Gardens-

055.047 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-

055.048 Containing all kinds (of trees and delights);-

055.049 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-

055.050 In them (each) will be two Springs flowing (free);

055.051 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-

055.052 In them will be Fruits of every kind, two and two.

055.053 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.054 They will recline on Carpets, whose inner linings will be of rich brocade: the Fruit of the Gardens will be near (and easy of reach).

055.055 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.056 In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;-

055.057 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-

055.058 Like unto Rubies and coral.

055.059 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.060 Is there any Reward for Good - other than Good?

055.061 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.062 And besides these two, there are two other Gardens,-

055.063 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-

055.064 Dark-green in colour (from plentiful watering).

055.065 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.066 In them (each) will be two Springs pouring forth water in continuous abundance:

055.067 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.068 In them will be Fruits, and dates and pomegranates:

055.069 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.070 In them will be fair (Companions), good, beautiful;-

055.071 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-

055.072 Companions restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions;-

055.073 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-

055.074 Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;-

055.075 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-

055.076 Reclining on green Cushions and rich Carpets of beauty.

055.077 Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.078 Blessed be the name of thy Lord, full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.

Well Sister Amah I could give 10 reasons why:

1) It allows philosophical questioning

2) Challenges the mind

3) The premise of Allah denies the existence of dual realities besides the only reality i.e "there is no god but Allah" etc

4) Islamic knowledge encompasses both the religious and non-religious

5) It helps us understand that our way of life is not some random creation

6) God is within us i.e "And we are closer to you than your own jugular vein"

7) In Islam God tells us that he has left "sign" of his existence which we must ponder thus more challenges for our mind.

8) Islam helps us to admit our frailtility which in essence helps us to submit to God's will.

9) Islam is the only religion which in essence shows us that we do not have total freewill which helps better solve philosophical issues regarding the mind.

10) God knows our intentions which leaves open salvation.

I assume many of you don't know the true saying of Plato, obviously from your replies. Basically what he meant by this is that after deathwe are above our physical limitations. In our spiritual form we will reach beyond our zenith thus would understand and know reality! Some would say that this is an elevated stated or Heaven. Some say this is Nirvana as the Buddhist but who knows? As Allah says s on the Day of Judgement we will know what we did.

AbRah no direspect to you brother as your intentions to me are noble but frankly I'm well aware of the fundamentals of Islam. I called myself a liberal because I'm unorthodox in certain philosophical respect of Islam. Frankly, unorthodoxy is a composition of some of the Islamic beliefs today. We become liberal based on our environement, social structure and upbringing. This is what I mean as I'm opposite of those who blindly follow a specific guideline who they themselves have no knowledge of.

You can quote Qur'an all day brother but that still doesn't answer the question of belief. Nobody here has any reason actually except quote Qur'an which shows the limitations of ourselves. We cannot truly condemn someone if we cannot fully explain why such and such are condemned. We cannot truly say that the Athiest is Kufr if the athiest belief comes from grief not intentional rejection. What I displayed here are reasons why some people do not believe and why we reject them and condemn them.

The Sdifferent schools of thought have done this. The Muti'zilites and Ashrites have done this for hundreds of years. One school of thought may believe such and such are excommunicated from the faith for a minor sin the other may believe for a major sin. We ourselves may not know the extent of Allah's mercy and even if we use parables we still do not know and the only way to know is through death--hence the message of Plato. There are so many variables to why we believe.

For me it was spontaneous enlightenment. For some its courage in others or a small miracle. Why some disbelive it could be from a tragedy or for a person whose spiritual beliefs went undeveloped. Since these are basic realities can we truly say someone who is Kufr is going to hell? It wouldn't be justice for God or even a human to condemn someone because he/she shares a different religion. That is persecution not justice. Well, on this earth that would be persecution anyway. The extent of Allah's mercy is infinite, and incomprehensible.

Israfil wrote: For me it was spontaneous enlightenment. For some its courage in others or a small miracle. Why some disbelive it could be from a tragedy or for a person whose spiritual beliefs went undeveloped. Since these are basic realities can we truly say someone who is Kufr is going to hell? It wouldn't be justice for God or even a human to condemn someone because he/she shares a different religion. That is persecution not justice. Well, on this earth that would be persecution anyway. The extent of Allah's mercy is infinite, and incomprehensible.

There is a fundemental truth here that members of all three Abrahamic faiths tend to forget.  As Israfil is saying here, Judgement is God's alone.  We can assume we know what God will chose for the non believer.  We can point to revelation and scriptural evidence.  But in the end, God made each and every one of us, he knows our hearts, our strengths, our weaknesses.  He knows how we perceive and what blinders we have on, what coercive tactics have been used on a person.  Only God can truly judge a person.  That is his right alone.

To be a Muslim we must accept Allah as One and Only and His messenger the prophet Muhammad. When we accept them we will follow and practise the teachings of Islam. Allah is the All Merciful to Muslims. Who are the Muslims? The Muslims are the people who follow the prophets of Allah since the era of prophet Adam. And we exist after the prophet Muhammad Muhammad was gone and since he is the last messenger of Allah we must follow him because Allah has abolished the past scriptures by sending Quran the final revelation of God to us.

Allah is not cruel so He will NOT send the people who were not exposed to His Word to hell.

Is it fair for Allah to send the non-believers to heaven after they have rejected Him eventhough He has sent His prophets to them?

Yes Allah will be the judge but Allah will not contradict His own Word! Muslims are going to heaven and non-believers will go to HELL !

AbRah.....What if an atheist became an athiest after he/she lost someone at 9/11 at the hand of Muslims (or those who considered themselves muslims). What if the atheist had disdain for Islam for this reason? After all this is a bad experience. Or what if a person is an atheist after an Imam forcefully tried to convert him/her and damned them for not converting on their own terms. I refuse to worship a god who condemns someone just because they had a bad experience and choose not to accept Islam at that time. Again brother there are many variables to why we believe and disbelieve I'm just hoping you can  understand that. Being an athiest does not necessarily mean you may reject God perhaps being apart of the religioon of athiesm you cannot develope your spiritual connection hence disbelieve in the existence of an independent and great entity.

It's easy for us to say "Why can't they believe in God?" but there are so many variables that it would be hard proven to say which and which reason. Therefore we must refrain from judgement.

Israfil said: AbRah.....What if an atheist became an athiest after he/she lost someone at 9/11 at the hand of Muslims (or those who considered themselves muslims).

My response: I want you to give me concrete proofs to support your claim that Muslims were involved in the 9-11 and we will see whether you are right.

Israfil said: I refuse to worship a god who condemns someone just because they had a bad experience and choose not to accept Islam at that time. Again brother there are many variables to why we believe and disbelieve I'm just hoping you can  understand that.

My response: Will Allah accept those variables that deny His existence as the Creator who has created all mankind? Can we dictacte to Allah what we like and what we don't etc? Can a slave or servant dictacte to her or his master? We can't because we are Allah's slaves( servants) but we can pray to Him and there are no intermediary between us and Allah.

Israfil said: Being an athiest does not necessarily mean you may reject God perhaps being apart of the religioon of athiesm you cannot develope your spiritual connection hence disbelieve in the existence of an independent and great entity.

My response: What is the definition of atheism? Atheism, in its broadest sense, is the absence of theism (the belief in the existence of deities).

Angela wrote: Israfil wrote: For me it was spontaneous enlightenment. For some its courage in others or a small miracle. Why some disbelive it could be from a tragedy or for a person whose spiritual beliefs went undeveloped. Since these are basic realities can we truly say someone who is Kufr is going to hell? It wouldn't be justice for God or even a human to condemn someone because he/she shares a different religion. That is persecution not justice. Well, on this earth that would be persecution anyway. The extent of Allah's mercy is infinite, and incomprehensible. There is a fundemental truth here that members of all three Abrahamic faiths tend to forget.  As Israfil is saying here, Judgement is God's alone.  We can assume we know what God will chose for the non believer.  We can point to revelation and scriptural evidence.  But in the end, God made each and every one of us, he knows our hearts, our strengths, our weaknesses.  He knows how we perceive and what blinders we have on, what coercive tactics have been used on a person.  Only God can truly judge a person.  That is his right alone.

Only Allah is the All Wise Who can truly judge a person but Allah has ordered  us to follow and practise the teachings Quran and the sayings and actions of His messenger the prophet Muhammad. So I judge anybody based on God's Word and the teachings of His messenger the prophet Muhammad (peace and bless upon him). I judge you by your own words, actions etc that can be detected by our 5 five senses but my judgement is not complete if I have no proofs and witnesses to support my judgement. If I am not fair in my judgement Allah will question me in hereafter. May Allah forgive me..Ameen.  I cannot judge you by your heart because it is beyond my ability but Allah knows your heart!

abrah said:

"Yes Allah will be the judge but Allah will not contradict His own Word! Muslims are going to heaven and non-believers will go to HELL !"

abrah - prove to me from the quran that youre going to heaven

Assalamu Alaikum!

No offense intended to anyone. Intrafaith section is for Muslims alone, who may or may not belong to sects. Therefore, I respectfully ask those who are not Muslims to stay away from this section.

Peace

Israfil wrote: Why do you guys (moderators) keep moving my subjects to Intrafaith, clearly this subject addresses all montheistic religions who believe in this eschatology

Peacemaker,

Israfil did not intend this to be an INTRAfaith discussion.....so move it back to INTERfaith.

Edit: Yes, it was in interfaith. And later as it developed, it was moved to intrafaith. The best thing would be to post and discuss the matter where it belongs. Thanks for you comment anyway. ---Peacemaker

fredifreeloader wrote: abrah said: "Yes Allah will be the judge but Allah will not contradict His own Word! Muslims are going to heaven and non-believers will go to HELL !" abrah - prove to me from the quran that youre going to heaven

I know that it is pointless to show you the Quranic verse since the Muslims have shown you a lot of Quranic verses but you do not appreciate them! You make fun of them !

Here are the Quranic verses:

 And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that they will have gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow.... (Quran, 2:25)

God has also said:

Race one with another for forgiveness from your Lord and for Paradise, whose width is as the width of the heavens and the earth, which has been prepared for those who believe in God and His messengers.... (Quran, 57:21)

God has said in the Quran:

But those who believe and do good deeds, We will admit them to gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow, lasting in them forever....  (Quran, 4:57)

What are you going to do next? Belittling me?

Angela wrote: Is not Pride a sin? The Lack of Compassion?  Testifying to a Lie?  There are many sins.  Just because you are "muslim" doesn't mean you're going to Heaven.  If anything, a Muslim who claims to be Muslim, yet does not practice what he preaches would be in more danger of hell than someone who is a good person and practices what they know to be the truth.  I know a few Muslims (or maybe the better term is Arabs, since they do not practice their faith) who drink, have sex and live unrighteous lives having been raised with the Quran and the teachings of Islam.  Then there is my Grandmother, who is a hardworking Christian woman, who never judges anyone, always does charity, helps anyone in need, prays and reads her Bible daily.  Who is leading a more righteous life?  Isn't it true in Islam a good deed erases a bad deed?  If you live all your life doing far more good than bad, what will the end result be????

Those who have disbelieved and died in disbelief, the earth full of gold would not be accepted from any of them if one offered it as a ransom. They will have a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers. (Quran, 3:91)

If you could but see when they are set before the Fire (Hell) and say, �Would that we might return (to the world)!  Then we would not reject the verses of our Lord, but we would be of the believers!� (Quran, 6:27)

AbRah2006 wrote:  And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that they will have gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow.... (Quran, 2:25) God has also said: Race one with another for forgiveness from your Lord and for Paradise, whose width is as the width of the heavens and the earth, which has been prepared for those who believe in God and His messengers.... (Quran, 57:21) God has said in the Quran: But those who believe and do good deeds, We will admit them to gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow, lasting in them forever....  (Quran, 4:57) What are you going to do next? Belittling me?

From these quotes, I would think that one must do more than just believe.  One must still do the good deeds?  Or am I wrong, is just believing enough?

Israfil wrote: The title is catchy isn't it? Sister Mishmish gave 10 reasons why Fred should be Muslim. I can give 10 reasons why we should choose Islam for other reasons. Actually in one of those statements was eternal paradise. I as a Muslim even with reading the Qur'an and reading some of the Hadith can be clearly convinced that non-Muslims are doomed for Hell. Hell exist here in this world for some and some live their lives only knowing what they were raised with. for our religious envoys this is enough to proseltyze and convert people to their faith. I am perhaps more "liberal" in the sense of this theological belief for I believe that God is the most knowledgable of all of creation. This is a reason why we call God a supernatural deity, because he can defy all rules of reality. One of the reasons why I don't defined Godn in the sense of attributing to him like "the Most this" "the most that" except through formal Islamic greetings is because we contradict ourselves everytime. The underline question can be ask: "If God is the most merciful why would he condemn an atheist man to hell?" Good question. What if that atheist is suffering from a complexity which stem from greif of losing a loved one or a crisis of faith? There are some many mysterious variables why we believe why we believe and none of us should define them with our doctrines. I've had missionaries call me "son of the devil" I've had members here say my mother is going to hell because she was a Christian. We sure limit God. We limit God with doctrine, with words even with food. Eternal Paradise is being closes to God as possible and feeling an untainted and undying love from something far greater than your own spiritual being.  God the artisan, is the judge of all beings in the universe and like Plato said :"True knowledge comes after death."

Bismillah,

Yes, very catchy! I especially agree with the part in red.  When people quote our Holy Quran to support what they believe is true, they interperet it to support their claims.  So each of us could do that.  I see things from your and Angela's points of view maybe because I love many non-Muslims, but I think it's probably because that's what makes sense to me and my faith in Allah, SWT.  My faith belongs to me.  It is my personal relationship with Allah.  I don't give permission to anyone to mess with that.  And I definitely believe that only Allah, SWT, knows who the ungrateful disbelievers are. 

During the blessed Prophet Muhammad's time, he knew when Allah, The All-Knowing, informed him and he shared that with the people around him.  I will make the judgment that we shouldn't --through possibly incorrect understanding -- decide for ourselves who is and is not going to heaven or hell.  Let's just enjoin good behavior, the most important of which is belief in the All Mighty.

As'Salaamu alaikum

Before I comment I'd like to say that I agree with Angela, my intention was not to make this an all-Muslim discussion. My intention was to have all members of various sects and of various faiths share in this discussion. This subject applies to all people of religious/spiritual convictions. This truly annoys me that moderators assume what is the best interest of the board as I know several moves based on the "interest" of the boards were clearly a mistake. Again as I assume I'm not respected here (for reasons unknown to me). I'm going to ask the moderators nicely (although I know being nice here doesn't get you nowhere) if they could move this to the interfaith section. Honestly, I don't want just a Muslim opinion I want a universal opinion here.

if I'm rejected of this plea then its obvious that "reserving the right" also means reserving control over who says what. Abrah I'm currenly doing some tudying with my classmates so later on I'll give you a reply.