Evolution is not a science.  In order for something to be considered a successful science it requires three things according to Scientist Philip Kitcher: independent testability, unification and fecudity. 

 in evolution the theory states that it takes millions and billions of years for a process to occur. scientists cannot independently test it. scientists only live to be less than a century old. Independent testability is a process of vigorous testing of any proposed theory- but nope, somehow the theory of evolution passes the test in their eyes.  is that fair?

Unification has a couple meanings; that everytime a scientist tests it, they all come up with the same result and all science complies with that result. the use the same pattern of resoning again and again. Evolution doesn't have unification. there are holes in it. Darwin speaks of gradualism (translition btw species, morphogenisis) but according to fossil record shown in the evolutionary time chart, scientists see bursts of variation of fossils at one time or another.  an example is the famous Cambrian Explosion. all-of-a sudden they extract thousands of different species within a few layers of earth that span couple hundred years time. now Evolutionary biologists preach 'punctuated equilibrium'. (they changed Darwin's patern of reasoning) When it comes to graduallism they make erronious proposition of how one fossil just relates to another. no proof, just ideas to stay consistent with darwin's theory.

Fecundity means fruitfulness.  a successful science must bring bout more discoveries and knowledge.  Like Newton's Laws.  You could say that fecundity wants incompleteness in science (knowledge/research never ends or goes to completion).  Evolution has holes in it.  it's research never ends only bcz it's ever trying to cover up those weak points in evolution.  they say evolution holds 'future promises' and are just waiting for the answer to come allong in future experiments (a clearer ansser on how animals/plants evolved from one another). 

that's not fecundity, that's exasperation ... they're just building up a groundless issue.

k i've said enough.

Salaam, 

schwester wrote: but evolution denies god's existence, there comes the clear thing about its being falsehood. my god, i remember those colorfull history books at school. and i guess these books are still read and taught to students . wasn't the evolution's first founder a dude in church? afterward he becomes an atheist by inventing evolution, as scientists in those times were all against christianity, because it denied most of scientific facts.

Evolution doesn't necessarily deny God's existence. 

God created the earth in Six Days.....what is a day to him?  Time is a human invention.  We have fossil fuels today because of decaying organic material from millions of years ago.  Do we think this wasn't part of God's plan?  Everything has a place, a reason and a purpose.  God's plan is perfect.  So, what if there were other humanoids before us?  There is no direct link from them to us.  Perhaps they held a place here for other reasons.  To create wonder, to test.

Have you ever considered that the existence of Homo Erectus was simply a test of your faith?  I have.  Just because they existed does mean that Adam wasn't created from Dust.  Who did Cain and Seth marry?  Their own sisters?  Who were the people of Nod that Cain married into????  The Quran, Torah and Bible are silent on this matter. 

The Theory of evolution in writing outwardly denounces and ignors any intervention of a divine Being within it's framework.  Evolutionary teachers preach that and so do evolutionary science books. 

You are right to say that all those creations from millions of years ago have a reason and a purpose to exist.  Allah is vast in His knowledge. We are not denouncing any of God's plans.

"Say, 'If the sea were ink for (writing) the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement.' "  Quran 18:109

Also many aspects of evolution we do see occuring in nature: like adaptation.  Adaptaion is under the banner of evolution and it clearly exists. 

species have lived on earth for millions of years, in different biological environments.  i'm not refuting fossil record. neither am I questioning Allah's method of creating. 

  the twelveth name of Allah is The Evolver, Al Bari.    but i think this is in terms of adaptation.  not morphogenisis from fish to folks. 

You say "time is a human invention".  not according to the Quran.  Allah created time.  There is a chapter in the Quran titled, Time (ch 103) . 

The islamic callender is Islamic because that is how Allah defined the yearly callender to be.  we did not invent it.

 Time in our world is not like time in His world. that is the only difference.  6 days to us is different than 6 days to Allah.  we say they are 6 'periods'.  and a period is as long as Allah makes it to be. 

Well, I would agree with time being different for a being without beginning or end. 

However, time was defined by man before the Revelation of the Quran.  Lunar calendars were common.  But there were lunar calendars, Solar calenders, etc.  I think in a way, the Islamic calendar was a way for Allah to put all the Ummah on the same page. 

We define our time measurements based off of Allah's creations.  A day is 24hrs to us because that is how long God set the rotation of the earth and John Harrison dividing the world into 24 parts for the sake of oceanic navigation. 

Its not that Time itself is the invention of man, but the measurement of time.  We know the earth revolves around the sun 365.25 rotations of the earth.  We call these revolutions days.  Mars rotates 24.6 Earth hours and takes 687 earth days to move around the sun. 

God created our beginning and end....its up to us how we define that time.

Adaptation is evolution to a certain extent.  I watched a really interesting show on the flying reptiles that eventually became the birds we have today.  Adaptation led to one species becoming another.  Does this mean it was not by the will of God?  Of course not.  I think it was perfectly within his plan.

Still, what about the People of Nod?  If Eve is the Mother of all living? And Seth and Cain married from other Peoples?  Where did those people come from?  Certainly God did not have the children of Adam and Eve married to their own siblings, when he has forbidden that kind of relationship?

Bismillah,

Allah, SWT, has changed laws througout time as He saw fit for the civilization whom he sent the laws to.

Peace

Ummm, I still don't see him changing one that important.  Genetics and history has taught us the undesireable consequences for imbreeding.

They multiplying done in the peoples of Genesis takes place two quickly in two few generations for it just from one man and one woman.  WE are not rabbits, nor do we normally give birth to multiples.  Especially in ancient times.  High infant mortality rates, High mortality rates among women giving birth.  Death in childhood or adulthood, short life spans...why is it so hard to believe that Adam and Eve were the first HUMANS and that God created others too?  Not everything is written down.  WE do not have the records of all the prophets. 

Sometimes you have to use logic.

Allah doesn't need to 'use logic'. if he wants something to be done he but says unto it "Be!" and it is.    concerning how humans multiplied from Adam and Eve, there is some information from books or scholars about that. 

what I know is that Eve bore a pair of kids every time she consumed.  she consumed many times.  each pair was a male and female.  those pairs married with other pairs of the next kids she had and so on.  Whether each pair had unique characteristics similar to the hundreds of different races on earth today, I am ignorant about the details.  Asking a Muslim scholar about details of what Allah made possible through Adam and Eve is a smarter idea.

As a Muslim we submit ourselves to His will and his way.  we donnot question something beyond our capabilities.  Allah is infinite and our minds are finite.  the finite will never compete with the infinite. 

It is only logical to believe that before anything was created there had to be a Creator. It is, also, only logical to believe that this Creator had to be an eternal being without beginning or end and that nothing could be like this Creator. It is this Unique Being Whom the Qur'an calls Allah the Lord, the Only Supreme Being worthy of worship.

When Allah the Most High decided to create the earth, sun, planets, stars, and the galaxies - those that are known and those that are unkown to us - He commanded them: 'Be!' and they were. Almighty Allah said: Verily, His Command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, 'Be!' - and it is!   Surah 36:82

As for the method of creation, it is unknown to us except what Allah revealed, which is that He created the heavens and the earth and the spaces in between in six days.

Allah the Exalted declared: Allah it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them in six days.   Surah 32:4

These six days are calculated as Allah the Almighty's days. This means they are not like our days on earth, as we count the day according to the earth's rotation once around its axis and the year according to its orbit around the sun. Perhaps these six days are thousands of years, or even millions of centuries, by our calculation nowadays, or perhaps they are more or less than that. They might be something totally different by Allah's reckoning.

Allah told us that He created the heavens, the earth, and everything that is between them in six days, then established Himself on the throne of the universe. Everything submitted to His will; everything was indebted to Him; everything prostrated and showed reverence to Almighty Allah. He controlled the working of everything and everything needed Him. He is the One Who needs nothing and no one, but everything and everyone needs Him. All was complete. Allah the Almighty's will had been accomplished. The universe was created and had prostrated to Him as a symbol of its need and its desire for sustenance and in submission to His will.

amalhayati2 wrote: what I know is that Eve bore a pair of kids every time she consumed.  she consumed many times.  each pair was a male and female.  those pairs married with other pairs of the next kids she had and so on.  Whether each pair had unique characteristics similar to the hundreds of different races on earth today, I am ignorant about the details.  Asking a Muslim scholar about details of what Allah made possible through Adam and Eve is a smarter idea.

Please provide you reference from the Quran, Torah or Bible that supports this claim.

Logic is reason, reason is what makes us think, we are meant to think unlike the Angels who are without free will.

By your theory, if Adam and Eve were the Mother and Father in this manner.  We would all look alike.  We would all have similar skin tones, eye colors, hair colors, facial features.  Genetic diversity does not allow for all the children to have been born in this manner.

Also, there are many scholars that calculate the generations of the bible, in this they have found only 7,000 years have passed since Adam and Eve.  I put my figure closer to 70,000 when a supervolcano created a genetic bottleneck.  The article I'm including in one of many on the subject.  But my point being is that we do not breed fast enough to have gone from 2 to 6 Billion in the generations from Adam to the present.  

Lets put it this way....Adam according to Genesis lived to be 930 years old.  This was more in likely because he was created perfect, without infirmaty and disease.  According to Genesis, Abel, Cain and Seth were single births, with no mention of sisters being born in between.  Genesis 4 specifically mentions the People of Nod.  Now, I digress.  Lets say that Adam and Eve never lost fertility in their 930 years.  Which is stretching things, but we will do this because its a counter arguement, I personally would say Eve probably hit menopause around 500-650 years old.  But, we'll say they were fertile from age 25 through 900...that's 875 years.  That's 1750 people according to your (unreferenced) source that she bore twins everytime.  So, when did we switch to solitary births?  15 years ago, only 1 in 5 live births were multiples.  We'll give it 3 generations of doubles.   Oh wait, before we do all that math....there's the flood.  We're back to ground zero.  Noah and his family.....So, with single births the norm for Noah and his clan, we are back to the genetic bottleneck.  So, why don't we all look like Jews?

Evolution or Adaptation, however you want to play with words does not deny the existence of God.  Even if Darwin did. He noticed a trend and many of his theories have been debunked and changed over the years with the development of new techniques in science.

God created the Universe, he decided how it would work.  From the Dust of the Cosmos was formed the first Stars, then the Galaxies and Planets.  Then a rain of comets bearing water brought forth our planet.  These are awesome forces to just randomly make a few people on a rock near a yellow sun in the outer arm of a galaxy.  Of course God was in command of all these forces.  Who are we to say he didn't take his good old time and build us up from a molecular level?  He gave us a brain for a reason and he's commanded us to use it.

http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/evolving998.html - http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/evolving998.html

amalhayati2 wrote: Allah doesn't need to 'use logic'. if he wants something to be done he but says unto it "Be!" and it is.

lol! the only that can only be

concerning how humans multiplied from Adam and Eve, there is some information from books or scholars about that.

and is this below, suppose to be from them? 

what I know is that Eve bore a pair of kids every time she consumed.  she consumed many times.  each pair was a male and female.  those pairs married with other pairs of the next kids she had and so on.  Whether each pair had unique characteristics similar to the hundreds of different races on earth today, I am ignorant about the details.

I am glad you say that you are ignorant about it.

It sounds so ludicous, where on earth did you get this??

Your theory (which I don't believe is one) sounds like it came from a scholar who thinks that dinosaurs and fossils are a frigment of our imagination

I mean no offence but it's so wrong.

Angela wrote: Oh wait, before we do all that math....there's the flood.  We're back to ground zero.

 so true 

God created the Universe, he decided how it would work.  From the Dust of the Cosmos was formed the first Stars, then the Galaxies and Planets.  Then a rain of comets bearing water brought forth our planet.  These are awesome forces to just randomly make a few people on a rock near a yellow sun in the outer arm of a galaxy.  Of course God was in command of all these forces.  Who are we to say he didn't take his good old time and build us up from a molecular level?  He gave us a brain for a reason and he's commanded us to use it.

I love that explanation

schwester wrote: have any1 heard about snowmen of mountains? i saw lots on tv. newayz i don believe that there is one

I think you watch cartoon programmes on TV. They show the so called snowmen of mountains in cartoons. In reality, there is no such thing as snowmen. All that is just fiction.

schwester wrote: have any1 heard about snowmen of mountains? i saw lots on tv. newayz i don believe that there is one

Are you talking about Yeti?

I don't think there is either.  Its more likely bears and apes, or other wildlife and people's minds are playing tricks on them.

But, that's different than thousands of fossil records that are tangible enough to hold in your hand.

Then why didnt Allah created us in to the zombires, why need to give us brain & logic so we can choose the right path?

[/QUOTE]

I did not say 'humans' don't need logic.

In the process of creating His creatures, Allah doesn't need to use logic as a protocol to His method.  That's why I said if Allah wants something to be, she just says unto it "Be!" and it is. 

when we observe his creation, we see perfection and we use logic to see the clear signs of a Divine Creator.  

Don't get me wrong.  I never implied that we humans don't need to use logic.  We were innitially discussing how Allah created many persons from Adam and Eve.

Angela is using logic when talking about the consequences of Adam and Eve's children marrying themselves.  She is right, we know today how imbreading causes genetic mutation.  But at the time when Allah created adam and eve there were a lot of miracles, by the will of Allah (how Allah caused it to happen) they produced excessive progeny to bring about what we see today in the human race.

There are Muslim scholars who've studied this where you could ask about the details of how Allah brought about different races and ethnicities from Adam and Eve.  The extent of what I know about it i've said on a previous post. 

but dont' try to hard to comprehend it if you solely want to use logic, this is the place where we use our name in action.  (muslim= one who submits)  whole-heartedly we submit to the will of Allah on that He is the All Able, the All Knowing. 

again i say, in deep subjects such as how Allah created, you could use logic up to a point. then it jsut goes beond our reasoning. that's where our finite minds fail to compete with the Infinite, Allah.  and we say, Subhanallah! Allah is capable of all things, we submit to the All Powerful, the All Wise.

I'm not saying we shouldn't use logic at all- absolutely not! it's logic that Allah refers to over and over again in the Quran to use to see the signs of His existance.

[/QUOTE]

Logic is reason, reason is what makes us think, we are meant to think unlike the Angels who are without free will.

By your theory, if Adam and Eve were the Mother and Father in this manner.  We would all look alike.  We would all have similar skin tones, eye colors, hair colors, facial features.  Genetic diversity does not allow for all the children to have been born in this manner.....

Lets put it this way....Adam according to Genesis lived to be 930 years old.  This was more in likely because he was created perfect, without infirmaty and disease.  According to Genesis, Abel, Cain and Seth were single births, with no mention of sisters being born in between.  Genesis 4 specifically mentions the People of Nod.  Now, I digress.  Lets say that Adam and Eve never lost fertility in their 930 years.  Which is stretching things, but we will do this because its a counter arguement, I personally would say Eve probably hit menopause around 500-650 years old.  But, we'll say they were fertile from age 25 through 900...that's 875 years.  That's 1750 people according to your (unreferenced) source that she bore twins everytime.  So, when did we switch to solitary births?  15 years ago, only 1 in 5 live births were multiples.  We'll give it 3 generations of doubles.   Oh wait, before we do all that math....there's the flood.  We're back to ground zero.  Noah and his family.....So, with single births the norm for Noah and his clan, we are back to the genetic bottleneck.  So, why don't we all look like Jews?

[/QUOTE]

you see how using logic is not 'logical' here! hahaha  we'd go crazy with our finite minds trying to figure out how Allah, the Infinite, created!   Let's just throw in the towel and say if Allah wills for something, she just says unto it, "Be!" and it is. 

The reason I'm asking is that, is people who take Genesis literally, put the age of the planet at 6400-8010 years.  Here's some examples...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geohist.html - http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geohist.html

http://www.grisda.org/resources/MS_rb-bibch.htm - http://www.grisda.org/resources/MS_rb-bibch.htm

Now, we know from evidences, using the laws of nature God created that the Earth is more like 4 Billion years old. 

My point is, we cannot take Genesis literally.  However, that doesn't mean that Adam was not created from dust and Eve from his rib.  Perhaps they were the first humans with intelligence and a spiritual connection to God.  Perhaps they were the first humans 300,000 years ago....The evidences for Noah's flood show that it was probably around 10,000 BC and encompassed the area around the Black Sea (actually causing the creation of the Black Sea).  This was the known world to our ancestors.  It would have seemed like God wiped out the whole earth.  But even if God wiped out the whole earth in 10,000 BC.  WE are all decendents of Noah...so where did the Asian peoples come from that Migrated to the America's around 40,000BC.  Or the Aborigines (I butchered that) in Austrailia that have a culture that's over 100,000 years old?

Check it out folks!- i just got information about Adam's creation. whatever i said earlier about Adam and Eve having pairs of kids- SCRATCH-THAT. I got that from something else unrelated to the story of Adam.

 Here's the real deal, I got info from the CD of Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki. He has a 40-part series of the 'Lives of the Prophets' begining with Adam.  (I really recommend this package of CD's- Imam Anwar is a VERY interesting speaker and very knowledgable !)

This is what he said about the creation of Adam:

Hadith:

"Allah created Adam from a hand full of dirt picked from all of Earth so the children of Adam became red, white, black and everything in between, and they became soft and tough, bad and good and everything in between"

Commentary: That's why we see people of all colors, we have sincere individuals, and we have got those tough guys (now we know what them bullies in school have been formed from!  ) Allah took some soil from the mountains, some from the valleys. Allah took soil from firtile land and from non firtile land.  We've got people who live in mountains, valleys and everything in between. There are those who are infertile, cannot bare children and there are those who can.  There lives on earth good people and bad people.

Hadith Muslim:

"Allah has created Adam on his image (adult image)."

Commentary:

Allah has created Adam as he is in adult form.  Adam didn't go through developmental stages (embryo... fetus... infant... child, etc)

Allah blew His soul into Adam, and then Adam sneezed.  Allah said, "yarhamuka-allah" (like 'bless you' but literally it means 'Allah's Mercy be upon you') This is the first thing that happened to Adam. So the first thing Allah did with Adam was send mercy upon him.

Adam was given 1000 years to live.  Allah created Eve out of Adam's rib. 

( HERE'S THE PROGENY PART )

All the decendents of Adam came out of his back.  When Allah created Adam, Allah stroked Adam's back and they all fell down from his back.  Allah put some light between their eyes.

Adam questioned those people and Allah said, "these are your desendents"  Adam saw Prophet David, his light shown bright to Adam.  Adam asked Allah who that man is and Allah told him it's Prophet David.  He liked him so much that Adam gave up 40 years of his 1000-year lifespan to give to prophet David.

Adam then will live 960 years.  960 years later after that insident, the Angel of Death came to Prophet Adam to take his life.  Adam rememberd that Allah told him he has 1000 years to live. So he told the angel that he has 40 years left.  The angel said, "didn't you give 40 years to Prophet David?"  Adam denied.  Adam fergot and so he denied. 

Hadith Sahih:

"Adam denied and so his children deny. Adam fergot so his children forget. Adam made a mistake so his children make mistakes."

Commentary:

In arabic the word 'insan' which is the word for 'human beings' come's from the root work 'nasa' which literally means 'to forget.'  It is human nature to forget. 

Prophet Adam died at 960years old.

in my post that you quoted, the begining reads: "I got info from the CD of Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki. He has a 40-part series of the 'Lives of the Prophets' begining with Adam.  (I really recommend this package of CD's- Imam Anwar is a VERY interesting speaker and very knowledgable !)"

here is a short biography about the Imam from this website: http://www.dar-us-salam.com/store/mc41.html - http://www.dar-us-salam.com/store/mc41.html

Imam Anwar Al Awlaki was born and raised in New Mexico, USA. He obtained BS in Civil Engineering from Colorado State University, MA in Education Leadership from San Diego State University and is currently doing a PhD in Human Resource Development at George Washington University.

He is the author of a series of Audio lectures on the "Lives of the Prophets", covering the stories of the Prophets from Adam to Jesus (PBUT) of which over 20,000 copies have been published. The series is drawn from Imam Ibn Kathir's "Al-Bidayah wa An-Nihayah".

He is currently involved in the ongoing study of Shariah in Yemen. His shuyukh include prominent scholars in Yemen.

I searched for you're hadiths at this site.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

Its says it has a complete collection of Sahih Muslim hadiths.  I couldn't find the hadiths you quoted.