Simple question to my brethren because I'm having a hard time trying to understand:

If the Bible is partially corrupted and the Christians and Jews base their religious teachings based on the Bible is the whole religion corrupted? If so how can a WHOLE religion be corrupted on a partially corrupted text?

Technically speaking the whole world itself in build on some shaky ground because Allah, God , The Creator gave the resources in this world for the benifit and enjoyment of everyone yet only a small group controlls these resources.

Everyday they live a lie believing everything belongs only to a few when in reality it really belongs to all of us.

This being said is no reason to go start a riot.

The powers that be can see people suffering for want of education and training, for want of access to technology that could improve their lives.  These powers know many people are left ignorant of good communications skills, healthy boundaries and good parenting skills and though it may not seem like it there is progress and sharing more of the resources.

Most religions are built on stories of the past and there is really no way to be 100 percent sure of any accuracy in any of them as they were written many years passed the death of the people involved.

Though I support the Quran we really cannot be sure that Mohammed (PBUH) words were recorded accurately because he could not read not write the language he spoke so even he could not be sure his words were recorded that way he wanted them.

The only reason I say that is because even within Mohammed's (PBUH) circle there were disputes.

Faith....it takes great faith.  Either you believe or you don't.  I have studied many ancient writings.  I choose to believe.  It's as easy as that.

God's Peace.

I can understand you are having a hard time on that, brother Israfil.

"If the Bible is partially corrupted and the Christians and Jews base their religious teachings based on the Bible is the whole religion corrupted? If so how can a WHOLE religion be corrupted on a partially corrupted text?"

Brother Israfil, I have never liked that corrupt word "corrupted".  

Please, let me try it my way:

The Jews already had the Holy Scriptures first amongst the three Abrahamic religions. They knew their Scriptures well as they had been taught well by Moses himself.

The scattered Tribes of Israel are further scattered into many deviant groups. We shall call them broods of vipers and snakes for the sake of this discussion. The vipers, the cobras, the pythons, the rattlers and other venomous ones.

Comes in Jesus. He knows the Scriptures well. Who does he go after? We find him being continuously pestered and harrassed mostly by two groups, the Sadducees and the Pharisees who were following him where ever he went or Jesus was possibly going after them whenever he came across these brood of vipers. We don't see much of the average Jews going after him or vice versa. Jesus is the first accuser here and questions them, quoting the Scripture. One of the groups did not even believe in the afterlife or resurrection. Jesus hammers them and accuses them of not understanding the Scripture and condemns them for saying wrong.

Exit Jesus. Come in the Church Elders, Paul and gospel writers. The mission is to preach to the Jews as done by Jesus himself so that he could have put the House of Israel in order. They take the Jewish Scripture, copy everything down but make changes in words, where necessary to make their points. they picked and chose prophecies to suit their arguments but did not realise that the Jews already had the Scriptures.

The Jews disagreed. They were the first ones to accuse the Christians of forgery in the Scriptures. The newly-born Christians started teaching the Jews their own Scriptures.  At this point in time, we don't hear of Pharisees and Sadducees harrassing any Christian preachers all left is only Jews. No more talks of other sects.

Still, the Christians could not and did not accuse the Jews of any corruption or forgery in their Scriptures but the Jews minus Pharisees, Sadducees, nazarites, Essenes, etc kept on saying that the Christians borrowed their entire Scriptures and changed the meanings. I do agree with that. Once we read The Jewish Scripture and the Christian OT together and match word for word, we can easily find where the changes have been made by the Christians.So, the Jews are the first to accuse Christians of "corruption" in their Scriptures. Forgery, in my opinion, is a better word, since many Christian writers do use that word.

While the battle of words goes on between the Jews and the Christians for 600 years, the pure and true Chrsitian followers of Jesus also get scattered into many sects, with most going deviant. While that goes on for about 365 years, Augustine uses his powerful right hand and stomps all and gets them to forge a Creed.   But it really does not end there.

God had been watching all over the periods. Enough is enough. Enters Islam. Like Jesus had to face the Pharisees, Sadducees, Jews and other sects, Muhammad had to face all sects of Jews, all sects of Christians and the pagans. The Jews would question Muhammad. The Christians would question Muhammad. The pagans would question Muhammad and also ask him what the Jews and Christians asked!  

No other prophet in History had to face so many adversaries in his time like Muhammad faced. When questioned by the Jews, Muhammad would ask "What does your Book say?" When questioned by Christians, he would ask the same. So, the topic of discussing the Books had started and went into full swing at that time.

The Jews blame Christians for forging the Scriptures. Muslims blame both and accuse them of changing God's Eternal Message and the Scripture.

I would not say that the Christian Bible and the Jewish Scriptuers have been corrupted. I would say they have been forged.

The best example of the forgery:

Jewish Scripture: "The young woman shall give birth to a child and shall call him Immanuel". No young woman in the history of Israel gave birth to Immanuel as prophecised and that never happened. Jewsih Scripture is slilent on this.

Christian Scripture: "The virgin will give birth to a child and will call  him Immanuel". The virgin disobeyed God by not calling the child Immanuel.

We cannot say that the Scriptures were corrupted or are corrupt. That is bad and improper. It would be proper to say that the scriptures were forged and they certainly were. We can look at the above example and there are plenty of other examples. 

Salaam Alaikum

BMZ

Brother BMZSP ok, I understand youtr position but your answer is basically talking around my question. It is generally held that Christianity today as it is practiced is anot the same as it is practiced in the time of Jesus. Thus it is generally held that Christianity of today is not the Abrahamic form of Christianity (or a splinter sect of Judaism) as it was in the time of Jesus. Now the same is said for Jews as well. My point is there is no proof that the NT is COMPLETELY forged. When we are talking about forgery my idea is someone who is copying already written information  word for word but just putting their name on it.

Again my question goes unanswered............

The same can be said by the practice of Muslims in regards to "Muslim behavior." I'm quite sure how we Muslims behave now is not like how the Muslims in the prophet's time behaved.

So again my question is (and I'll use your PC words brother) if the Bible/Torah are forged partially how can an entire religious faith be wrong?

Obviously it can't be since the prophet initally didn't try to convert the Jews or the Christians. But I'd like to hear some of your arguments.

bmzsp wrote: I can understand you are having a hard time on that, brother Israfil. "If the Bible is partially corrupted and the Christians and Jews base their religious teachings based on the Bible is the whole religion corrupted? If so how can a WHOLE religion be corrupted on a partially corrupted text?" Brother Israfil, I have never liked that corrupt word "corrupted".   Please, let me try it my way: The Jews already had the Holy Scriptures first amongst the three Abrahamic religions. They knew their Scriptures well as they had been taught well by Moses himself. The scattered Tribes of Israel are further scattered into many deviant groups. We shall call them broods of vipers and snakes for the sake of this discussion. The vipers, the cobras, the pythons, the rattlers and other venomous ones. Comes in Jesus. He knows the Scriptures well. Who does he go after? We find him being continuously pestered and harrassed mostly by two groups, the Sadducees and the Pharisees who were following him where ever he went or Jesus was possibly going after them whenever he came across these brood of vipers. We don't see much of the average Jews going after him or vice versa. Jesus is the first accuser here and questions them, quoting the Scripture. One of the groups did not even believe in the afterlife or resurrection. Jesus hammers them and accuses them of not understanding the Scripture and condemns them for saying wrong. Exit Jesus. Come in the Church Elders, Paul and gospel writers. The mission is to preach to the Jews as done by Jesus himself so that he could have put the House of Israel in order. They take the Jewish Scripture, copy everything down but make changes in words, where necessary to make their points. they picked and chose prophecies to suit their arguments but did not realise that the Jews already had the Scriptures. The Jews disagreed. They were the first ones to accuse the Christians of forgery in the Scriptures. The newly-born Christians started teaching the Jews their own Scriptures.  At this point in time, we don't hear of Pharisees and Sadducees harrassing any Christian preachers all left is only Jews. No more talks of other sects. Still, the Christians could not and did not accuse the Jews of any corruption or forgery in their Scriptures but the Jews minus Pharisees, Sadducees, nazarites, Essenes, etc kept on saying that the Christians borrowed their entire Scriptures and changed the meanings. I do agree with that. Once we read The Jewish Scripture and the Christian OT together and match word for word, we can easily find where the changes have been made by the Christians.So, the Jews are the first to accuse Christians of "corruption" in their Scriptures. Forgery, in my opinion, is a better word, since many Christian writers do use that word. While the battle of words goes on between the Jews and the Christians for 600 years, the pure and true Chrsitian followers of Jesus also get scattered into many sects, with most going deviant. While that goes on for about 365 years, Augustine uses his powerful right hand and stomps all and gets them to forge a Creed.   But it really does not end there. God had been watching all over the periods. Enough is enough. Enters Islam. Like Jesus had to face the Pharisees, Sadducees, Jews and other sects, Muhammad had to face all sects of Jews, all sects of Christians and the pagans. The Jews would question Muhammad. The Christians would question Muhammad. The pagans would question Muhammad and also ask him what the Jews and Christians asked!   No other prophet in History had to face so many adversaries in his time like Muhammad faced. When questioned by the Jews, Muhammad would ask "What does your Book say?" When questioned by Christians, he would ask the same. So, the topic of discussing the Books had started and went into full swing at that time. The Jews blame Christians for forging the Scriptures. Muslims blame both and accuse them of changing God's Eternal Message and the Scripture. I would not say that the Christian Bible and the Jewish Scriptuers have been corrupted. I would say they have been forged. The best example of the forgery: Jewish Scripture: "The young woman shall give birth to a child and shall call him Immanuel". No young woman in the history of Israel gave birth to Immanuel as prophecised and that never happened. Jewsih Scripture is slilent on this. Christian Scripture: "The virgin will give birth to a child and will call  him Immanuel". The virgin disobeyed God by not calling the child Immanuel. We cannot say that the Scriptures were corrupted or are corrupt. That is bad and improper. It would be proper to say that the scriptures were forged and they certainly were. We can look at the above example and there are plenty of other examples.  Salaam Alaikum BMZ

The Jews blame Christians for forging the Scriptures. Muslims blame both and accuse them of changing God's Eternal Message and the Scripture.

The Jews do not blame Christians for forging the Scriptures.  Where do you come up with these blatant lies?

If Muslims blame and accuse Christians and Jews of changing God's message,  where is your proof?  Because the Qur'an contradicts the Holy Bible?  The same claim can be made of the Muslims.  The Muslims changed God's original message from the Holy Bible.

I would not say that the Christian Bible and the Jewish Scriptuers have been corrupted. I would say they have been forged.

And you would be wrong.

The best example of the forgery:

Jewish Scripture: "The young woman shall give birth to a child and shall call him Immanuel". No young woman in the history of Israel gave birth to Immanuel as prophecised and that never happened. Jewsih Scripture is slilent on this.

Christian Scripture: "The virgin will give birth to a child and will call  him Immanuel". The virgin disobeyed God by not calling the child Immanuel.

What the Quran says:

2:113 The Jews say: "The christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

2:135 They say: "Become Jews or christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

But no one believes Rumi to be God.

Mishmish wrote: What the Quran says: 2:113 The Jews say: "The christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

This verse is meaningless unless the Qur'an says what they disagreed upon, but the Qur'an is not talking about a "corrupted" or "forged" text.  It is talking about interpretation.

Mishmish wrote: 2:135 They say: "Become Jews or christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

I have no idea who Allah is referring to here; it certainly isn't the Jews and it certainly isn't the Christians.  The Jews and the Christians have not joined other gods to God.

Mishmish wrote: 9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

The Jews claim that they never called Uzair a son of God.  Even if some small sect did, the Qur'an has blamed them all.  Why wasn't Allah specific?

As I have said so many times, calling Jesus the son of God is not in itself a claim to divinity.  The "son of God" is another title for the Messiah.  Even the Qur'an calls Jesus the Messiah.

Besides that the God of the Jews and the Christians claims that He Himself has sons, not biological sons, but sons in the figurative sense.  I believe that Surah 9:30 is speaking of a literal son and if it is then, well you can draw your own conclusions.

Annie

These points have been discussed here before.

As said before, bring forth ALL of the gospels, not just those handpicked by the Nicean Council, and let people decide which are true and which are not.

Obviously this cannot be done, because they contradict. So, somewhere, something was changed. Even theologians who study the ancient texts agree that changes have been made. One word can change the meaning of a whole chapter.

And whether or not you believe that the Quran was speaking explicitly of the interpretation of the gospels, that should be enough. No where in the Old Testament or the New Testament does it state Jesus is God, or that there is a trinity. These concepts were added later.

Jesus never said he was God. If this is not a corruption of what Jesus said, then it is at the least a fabrication.

You ask why wasn't Allah specific when saying the Jews called Uzair a son of God, well, I ask why didn't God say that he is a trinity. Why didn't Jesus say that he was God? In the Quran, God says in no uncertain terms, there is only one God. Jesus was not my son, literally or figuratively, nor was he a God or the God. Nor is there a trinity. This is stated very clearly. I believe the Bible also states very clearly that there is only One God. That you should not make anything or anyone equal to God. But, it does not state clearly anywhere that Jesus is God, or that God is a trinity. Why hasn't God made this clear?

Mishmish wrote: These points have been discussed here before. As said before, bring forth ALL of the gospels, not just those handpicked by the Nicean Council, and let people decide which are true and which are not.

The Nicean Council did not choose the gospels.  The books of the NT were formerly accepted after the Nicean Council.  You can read the books that did not make it into the Canon on the Internet.  Most of them compliment the NT on the important issues, that he died and rose again; others make Jesus more divine than the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.  Others were written much too late to be considered canon and were Gnostic.  Gnosticism was in full force in the mid-second century.  One has Jesus bringing a child back to life, one has Jesus speaking as an infant and saying that he is the Son of God and the Savior of the World, one has Jesus making life from clay, one says that his bathwater as an infant was capable of making miracles.

Mishmish wrote: Obviously this cannot be done, because they contradict. So, somewhere, something was changed. Even theologians who study the ancient texts agree that changes have been made. One word can change the meaning of a whole chapter.

See above.  There have been scribal errors, glosses and the like.  All can be traced and corrected.  A good Bible will note what is not in an early manuscript.  All information is available.  Nothing affects Christian doctrine.  In addition, the Gospel we have today is the same one be had before Muhammad was born.

Mishmish wrote: And whether or not you believe that the Quran was speaking explicitly of the interpretation of the gospels, that should be enough. No where in the Old Testament or the New Testament does it state Jesus is God, or that there is a trinity. These concepts were added later.

No, Mishmish, they were not "added later."  The concept is there in the Scriptures.  All of Jesus' apostles believed that he was divine; even the Jews believed that Jesus was claiming divinity.  The puzzle was, "How can that be?"

Mishmish wrote: Jesus never said he was God. If this is not a corruption of what Jesus said, then it is at the least a fabrication.

Haven't we been on this merry-go-round before?

Mishmish wrote: You ask why wasn't Allah specific when saying the Jews called Uzair a son of God, well, I ask why didn't God say that he is a trinity.

I asked you first. lol  I think that God gave us quite a few clues as to His tri-une nature.  God gives us as much as we can understand depending on the circumstances.  The people in the early days of the Hebrew scriptures were having enough trouble believing that there was only one God, let alone the nature of that one God.

Mishmish wrote: Why didn't Jesus say that he was God?

Mishmish wrote: In the Quran, God says in no uncertain terms, there is only one God.

Mishmish wrote: Jesus was not my son, literally or figuratively, nor was he a God or the God.

Mishmish wrote: Nor is there a trinity. This is stated very clearly.

Mishmish wrote: <> I believe the Bible also states very clearly that there is only One God. That you should not make anything or anyone equal to God. But, it does not state clearly anywhere that Jesus is God, or that God is a trinity. Why hasn't God made this clear?

Annie,

From you:The Jews do not blame Christians for forging the Scriptures.  Where do you come up with these blatant lies?

Yes! The Jews do. The second sentence from you in above is darn insulting, Annie. Just google and you will find heaps of the truth.

Annie:If Muslims blame and accuse Christians and Jews of changing God's message,  where is your proof?  Because the Qur'an contradicts the Holy Bible?  The same claim can be made of the Muslims.  The Muslims changed God's original message from the Holy Bible.

The proof is in the Bible. We read so many contradictions within the Bible. That is proof in itself. To, Qura'aan the word Bible is unheard of and Qur'aan only mentions Torah and Injeel. God's original message was,"Your Lord God is One". Qur'aan just repeated and reaffirmed that.  

BMZ: I would not say that the Christian Bible and the Jewish Scriptuers have been corrupted. I would say they have been forged.

Annie: And you would be wrong.

BMZ: I am always right. I quote from Scriptures and compare.

I gave The best example of the forgery:

Jewish Scripture: "The young woman shall give birth to a child and shall call him Immanuel". No young woman in the history of Israel gave birth to Immanuel as prophecised and that never happened. Jewsih Scripture is slilent on this.

Christian Scripture: "The virgin will give birth to a child and will call  him Immanuel". The virgin disobeyed God by not calling the child Immanuel.

Annie: Look, BMZ, just because you can't understand the Scriptures does not make them "forged."   I put the explanation on the level of a child (which you asked for) and you still don't understand it.

BMZ: There is really nothing to understand, Annie. It is all written in English. Had you put the explanation on the level of a child, I would have understood it, but you could not and we moved on.

Annie: I could make quite a case of the Muslims "forging" the stories in the Qur'an because some of them are so different.  Your accusations are unfounded and insulting to Christians on this site.  I respect your right to believe in the Qur'an and Muhammad and the Hadiths.  That is your choice.  I would appreciate it if you would please start showing respect for the Christian and Jewish Scriptures.

I believe that I write and discuss inter-faith matters very respectfully. It is just that either you possibly did not understand or read my thoughts well.

Annie: Granted this is an Islamic site but that is no excuse for insulting your guests.  You should hang your head in shame.

Annie, the second part of your above comment was not in good taste. This is a place to discuss and argue. I feel sorry for you that you felt it that way. I write the facts and these matter most.