I hope the moderators can be attentive here as I have both a slight complaint and comment. I understand that its hard for so many members  to intellectually respond to me without using derogatory remarks or replying unintelligently. Perhaps the downfall of human intelligence is to respond to someone in an unintelligent fashion by making personal rearks to the individual which is has no relation to what is being discussed. Sister/Brother Abeer23 made such remarks by saying in the following:

>>>> Abeer23 said: Brother, when you say these kinds of things and lead this kind of lifestyle you shouldn't be surprised when muslim brothers in the mosque give you the "you're okay to pray with but no you can't marry my daughter" attitude.  Nor should you be offended when sisters break off engagements with you.<<<<<<<

Now this was made in the now closed discussion "My ideas on Homosexuality" which was a reference to my comment when I mentioned that I have gay friends whom I discuss and have conversations with and whom I have befriended. Now I can understand that my relationship with gays maybe disagreeable however what does my past have to do with the discussion at hand? Abeer23 says that we must do what is good and forbad what was evil and in the same breath made this remark. I made the mistake in even trusting this so-called Muslim family in expressing some personal feelings and I must apologize for my own ignorance. I assumed that the great e-Muslim community is mindful and respectful of personal issues but I was proven wrong.

These comments are reasons why I'm not so close to Muslims and gives me more of a reason to question my own faith and question whether I belong in Islam. Yes perhaps my faith is weak but at least I'm open about it and struggle to come to grips with my own deficiencies. In the context of Abeer23's comment it seems he/she is justifying not only my experiences with racist families but justify my former fiancee leaving me just to be with her own culture, now in knowing more in depth the personal context and where her/his comments stem from, what  do these relaities have anything to do with the subject of homosexuality? Absolutely nothing!

There are better ways to articulate a disagreement but making personal references towards a subject which nothing personal should be mentioned baffles me. I'm sure none of the moderators are going to respond here but I'sd rather risk the chance than not saying anything. This is totally baffling that we as a community can do this to each other. I am a friend to any human being who is worthy of a friendship. I am no judge over whatever lifesytle a human chooses to lead, but regardless my personal issues of my PAST has nothing to do with my ideas on sexual orientation of others....Can anyone see the shock here besides me?

Dear Israfil,

I wish you peace, joy, and love in your life.  To say anything in regards to your post would be of no help to you.  I hope some of the Muslims on this site will respond to you in a mature manner.  It is an Islamic board, so I don't feel I have any right to truly respond to your post.

God's Peace.

I doubt it, what I say here is of no importance to the moderators

Brothers, please do not make the confusion between Muslims and conservative people.

You have conservative people in every religion and they will just throw stones at the sinners because this is a conservative attitude, they do not know that maybe some of those sinners may go to Paradise with God's permission and they may not.

During the war againt the French, my family in Algeria was starving and who helped them? Guess brother! Prostitutes!! They were selling themselves to non_muslims, to Muslims because they were desperate (I am not defending prostitution) but they had a good heart. Why should I snob them when they helped us and maybe "good Muslims" from rich and conservative families may have looked down on me.

I have a gay friend who is not a Muslim. We have interesting conversations. InshAllha, one day, God will put him in the right way.

I think Abeer did not have the right to mention your break-up, that was out of context and nothing anyone can judge. I hope that he will apologise.

Do not follow Islam because of the Muslims, but for Islam Itself. Don't let hypocrites make you think maybe you do not belong to Islam. We all belong to Ilsam. Up to use if we submit to this idea, or not.

All the best brother!

Muslima

Muslima wrote:  Many Don't let hypocrites make you think maybe you do not belong to Islam.

  ....

I am not saying anyone in particular is hypocrite but I think people who judge their brothers are committing hypocrisy.

I think Israfil should be welcomed here and not be receiving messages that make him feel unaccepted.

In the same way, we should be more open to anyone because in the end, we do not know who will be a good Muslims, and who will not.

Does that make sense?

Al Salaam Alaikom,

brother Israfil,

I understand what you are trying to say, It reminds me of an incident I heard of the prophet (saaws), Once the prophet (saaws) passed by a "non-muslim" funeral and stopped to watch, then some one said to him "why do you stop, you know these people are not muslims"  And the prophet said "isn't he Human?"  (Please correct me of any errors, I remember the story but not ever detail).

This goes to show how the prophet (pbuh) was so open minded and loving...(habibi ya rasoul Allah)

We are not to judge people of their acts, you may never know what The All Mighty has for them in their future, they might someday be a better Muslim and God will guide them to the light.......Allah knows best

I think you should do what you think is right and you are old enough to take your own decisions and no one but Allah will judge you or any other person.....

We should LEARN and TEACH eachother

Peace.

There is a saying my Grandmother has, love the sinner, not the sin.  Homosexuality is wrong, but there have been medical studies, psychological studies and sociological studies pointing out a variety of causes.  Who are we to judge?  God will do that with perfect knowledge of the persons intentions and failings. 

Israfil, If you have friends that you can show unconditional love towards, understanding both their strengths and weaknesses.  Then you're a far better person than many so-called Christians I know and completely undeserving of a personal attack.

God Bless.

Angela wrote: Israfil, If you have friends that you can show unconditional love towards, understanding both their strengths and weaknesses.  Then you're a far better person than many so-called Christians I know and completely undeserving of a personal attack. God Bless.

I concur.

Colin wrote: Angela wrote: Israfil, If you have friends that you can show unconditional love towards, understanding both their strengths and weaknesses.  Then you're a far better person than many so-called Christians I know and completely undeserving of a personal attack. God Bless. I concur.

I concur too

Angel wrote: Colin wrote: Angela wrote: Israfil, If you have friends that you can show unconditional love towards, understanding both their strengths and weaknesses.  Then you're a far better person than many so-called Christians I know and completely undeserving of a personal attack. God Bless. I concur. I concur too

Bismillah,

Okay.  I'll just agree for variety's sake.

Israfil, you have made me very pleased.  My beloved first born child, and my only daughter, is a lesbian.  I love her with all my being.  I understand every word you say.

God Bless You Always.

Israfil, Please don't apologise, you are not in the wrong.

Patty, you got me curious. How come your daughter is a lesbian? Do you agree with that or not? is it a sin for you? Do you have a good relationship in spite of this (I think you mentioned somewhere homosexuality as a capital sin)?

You do not have to answer if you do not wish to. I understand this is personal.

Muslima

I have no idea why my daughter is a lesbian.  She told me when she was 18.  She told me she always knew she was.  She said "I did not choose to be this way.  Do you think anyone would choose to be a homosexual when they know the discrimination they will have to face?" 

No, it is not the life I would like her to have.  Yes, I have a beautiful, loving and kind mother/daughter relationship with her.  I love her, I hate homosexual activity.  (The sin of the act...NOT the person.)  I pray for her all the time.  She is my sweetie!  And God loves her too, not the homosexual act, but He loves my daughter...he created her.

God's Peace.

Well, good luck and hopefully, she will change and stop it. I guess this is something stronger than her.

I think we need to study it more and find out the real causes so we can help them.

Take care,

Muslima

No worries, I dod not sort out your problem...

Good luck anyway!

There was a Swedish study recently that showed that in homosexual men and women, they had brain function reactions to the pheremones (spelling) of the same sex that were the same reactions that heterosexuals have with the pheremones (again spelling) with members of the opposite sex.

There might be a real physical reason....for whatever reason, these people might be chosen by design to suffer this way.  Who knows what we'll find.

Israfil wrote: suffer? God the designer, designer these life forms to suffer by sexual orientation? LOL

A lot of medical researchers are looking at a "gay gene" found in chromosome Xq28.  There is much more study and research to be done. 

God's Peace.

there is no such 'gay gene'. people just try to make excuses for their immorality, i mean scientists try to prove that there might be some thing called a 'gay gene' and thats why people are homosexuals, Allah told us in Holy Quran that He destroyed the whole nation of Lut (as) due to this very sin, do you think that first Allah would put some thing like that in us and then punish us for that?

I have to say that just like for normal sexual relationship, a Muslim has to refrein from doing anything.

If he/she feels inclines to homosexuality, it does not mean that they have to do it, but they have to fight it internally.

I am not here to throw a stone at anyone but we have to follow what Gpd asked us to do or not to do. Otherwise we are sinning.

Salman, until or unless you have a child whom you love with all your heart come to you one day and tell you he/she is gay, you cannot possibly understand how much pain you feel.  How much sadness.  Do you think for a second I would just stop loving my daughter?  I don't see my daughter as immoral.  I KNOW the homosexual act is immoral, as I also believe the scriptures and what has been said about these ACTS being an abomination before God.  I also know my daughter did not one day just think, "hmmmm, I think I'll be a lesbian".  She fought these feelings very, very hard.  She dated guys a lot!  But she finally had to admit what she really felt in her heart. 

My daughter is college educated.  She graduated cum laude and was on the Dean's List.  Now she has worked for years as a social worker helping elderly and mentally ill clients find suitable housing, medical care, ensuring they have food to eat, etc.  She has spent her life so far caring for others.  She bought a very nice older home and fixed it up herself so that it is a beautiful Victorian style house.  She works in her yard all the time planting flowers and making gardens.  She reads volumes of books.....she has wonderful books everywhere.  She is anti-war, reads books on ALL religions, Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, etc.  She is a gourmet cook....even makes her own curry. My daughter is extremely intelligent...but she does not judge anyone. She absolutely refuses to talk against another person.  She feels we all have the right to our own beliefs.  She is rabidly fighting against discrimination for women from all countries.  She has travelled to many countries.

I only wish I could be half the tolerant, understanding person my beautiful daughter is.  If we were all like her, with her love for ALL MANKIND, there would be no war.  So, we have miles to go before we fully understand what causes a person to become homosexual.  One thing I DO know, it is not a simple matter of choice.

Yes, my daughter has to "fight it", Muslima.  Strange as it may sound, you would like my daughter if you knew her, and I'm sure she would like you (as a person) too.  She fights her demons everyday!!  What demons do we have that we must also fight???  The demons of intolerance and bigotry perhaps?  The demons of drugs or alcohol or premarital sex???  The BIG DEMON of lust??? We ALL have our own demons, don't we?

God's Peace to All.

My best friend is gay an di really like him, so it has nothing to do with the person.

God is fair at the end of the day and we need to live by the law. She should try not to commit the act itself even if it is hard.

But I understand that a mother will always love her daughter, no matter what and this is normal. All the best,

Muslima