Perhaps this is some ploy of mine to tell the world (Well, the cyber world here) that I'm creating this invisible gap between myself and the greater Islamic community. I have been here quite some time and if one looks back from the old forum to the new you'd see that almost every post that I have made was at least partially productive if not wholly. It's been quite frustrating getting PM's and getting comments in the forum saying: "I will not address you anymore because you hurt my feelings" or "I cannot speak to you anymore because you will not listen."

It's obvious where these comments lie. I'm sorry that I choose not to be blinded and that I question a whole lot. I'm sure none of the moderators (with the exception of a few) had the luxury of converting from one religion to another. As a thinker I do question life a lot and although many of you respond with the cliche' "Some things do not beckon questioning" I say that all things beckon our questioning. It doesn't mean that questions will always get answered however it is good to question. I made a thread called "United States Reconciliation" where I was hoping to get various ideas (based on the criterias set in the thread) on how we can make America better.

Nobody responded.

I discuss the Metaphysics of Heaven and Hell...Nobody responds....Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong areas. I come to this site because I wanted to share ideas that I normally don't do in my real life. It's not like I'm in school where I can jon a philosophy club and share all these wonderful ideas. I'm either at work, studying or here discussing stuff. I see the moderators have lost hope for me so I ask the moderators since this is a conversation between myself and you all, what is it that you wish for me to do? If we are suppossedly a family in Islam what are you suggestions as family members? Should I not question? Do you feel I taint the image of Islam to our non-muslim guest or what?

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

May Allah swt's Mercy and guidance with you brother. I ask to please forgive me if you mind what i say, I am only going to tell you bcos you asked for truth.

Now i start with good thing, alhamdulillahe mashaAllah Allah swt has given you a good brain. But thing is you are not using it in the right direction (slightly ofcourse ). In the thread about injeel i gave you couple of common examples which make it very clear to me that giving a choice and then knowing the outcome does not negate or affect free will. I am not sure why would you go into the basic root meaning of each word and then shred the whole thing apart. Brother I am sure if you do this with anything, you can prove it wrong. My point is you trying too too hard to understand the deep and real meaning of everything when the meaning that matters most is right there infront of you.

Brother losing hope in anything is bein ungrateful from Allah swt's Mercy and ask refuge from it inshaAllah. Me trying to explain things in itself should tell you that even though i dont know the first thing about you, I care dearly about you because you are a muslim brother. Yes I do consider you to be slightly of the path but every one does experience that. If you want an advice then I sincerely ask you to read books of tafaasir. Listen to recitation of Holy Quran and do this dua of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) 'Allahumma Arini Alhaqqa haqqa wa arzuqni Ittaba', wa arrini batila batila wa arzuqni ijtinaba'. It means O Allah swt show me right as right and give me ability to follow it and wrong for wrong and an ability to avoid it.

wassalam

Bismillah,

We get busy and cannot respond to everything.  When things are very deep and complex, they require time to think about them to answer, so it is better to say nothing if it cannot be well thought out sometimes.

I think you should question and do not taint the image of Islam because your questions are important.  However, I believe we should all be more careful about harming one another's feelings and learn from the times when people tell us that we have done this to figure out how not to do so in the future.

Peace

Megatron, good post

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

The modern conception of religious people is that they are stupid. 

Please dont make me laugh, if you really had read any work of any good (im not even saying great) scolar you would not be saying that. So you think people like Imam Hanifah, Imam shafi', ibn rushd, ibn kathir, ibn taymiyah, Maulana Mawdudi or Dr israr are stupid people. Have you not heard when you point a finger at some one there are three pointing towards you.

I know about the work done by ibn rushd and some other people in his time and only thing that they were trying to figure out was when Allah swt says that He writes every matter in a book beforehand, whether it is every minute detail or just the big events? If it is not too much trouble can you please tell me which muslim philosphers had doubts about limitations of free will? I want to read their work inshaAllah so i dont die as stupid blind follower.

wassalam

Saleem Israfil,

Please look at the post that I listed under General Dis. "From Arabic to English"

Inshallah it will help you.

I love most of your posts, Megatron....but I don't quite agree with your opinion that most "religious people are stupid."  I just don't think being religious make you stupid.  Many atheists are stupid, in my humble opinion.  Jesuit priests attend college for 17 years.  They are deeply religious, but hardly stupid.  It isn't really fair to paint all people with a such a broad brush because they are religious and may disagree with some of your opinons.  For instance, whisper and I don't agree on much, well he doesn't agree with me on anything that I know of, but I don't think for a second that he is stupid....but I do believe he is religious.

It's not fair to put a dunce cap on a person and call them stupid just because they are devoted to their religion.  I do agree there are stupid people, but the fact that they are, or are not, religious has little to do with it.  (And, yep, I know I'm not the sharpest tack on the wall, but I do the best I can with what brain God gave me.)

Peace to You.

Well the problem I have within my own faith is very disturbing and at times, I felt like relapsing to what I was before, a journeyman in God's universe. Honestly my belief now hasn't changed much since being Muslim the only difference is that I call myself Muslim. I have had Muslims tell me I must hate the things God hates and love the things God loves. However true that maybe I know Muslims who have told me that God "hates Jews therefore I should hate them." Similarly many Imams and Sheikhs would perhaps say the same thing to those who follow them because they are superb linguist and perhaps can persuade the masses with their dialetical arguments.

I myself question everything because everything is not as stable, because, like I've said before if truth is absolute there would be no question. I understand the Qur'an addresses belief and God's predetermination of every life form potential, existing and non-existing in this physical dimension.

Part of Megatron's statement is true actually....... The religious masses do not question everything. The usual response to a lot of questioning is that "If it says so in the book it is true." Well according to the Qur'an God calls us to investigate didn't anyone here read my post on "Philosophy is Obligatory?!?" in general discussion. I'm not some apostate, however I am one who is a rationalist philosopher who does question everything. People usually say questioning is silent, I say those people who silently question mask their symptom of blindness.

We all are scientist in religion therefore must be examples of God's word and investigate the truth that exist in this world. Even if our search does not lead us to the answers at least it brings us closert to a type of understanding of God.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

I am sure you would remember a Prophet (as) asking Allah swt that he wants to see Him. The answer was, you can not bear it but if this mountain can bear the 'tajaali' then you will, mountain was crushed and the Prophet (as) fell unconcious and started repenting as soon as he woke up.

Now some learned people of his nation ask the same question that we will not believe you untill we see Allah swt plainly. A lightening struck them and they were all dead.

Now another example a Prophet (as) asked Allah swt that please show me how You raise dead back to life. Allah swt asked, don't you have belief. Prophet (as) replied, i do have belief but i want to believe with certainity. So Allah swt told him to slaughter four birds and mix their parts up and then put then on four different hills. Then call them and the pieces all flew, joining right piece to right bird and came to him as original bird.

Followers of Isa (as) asked for a table of food to be brought down and they were granted

Now quraysh asked for any sort of miracle but were not granted it.

Allah swt says He has put every example in Holy Quran for people but humans are ever querlsome. Just take a look at these examples and think, ponder, why was it granted in few instances and not the other. It goes straight back to the complete knowledge of Allah swt. He knows who is asking out of sincerity and who is asking for sake of asking. Question the laws, for sure question em but in a manner suited to the Words of Allahs, with sincerity and hope of learning the truth behind them. Knowing that even though this moment you dont understand them, there is no way in world they wrong, its just your understanding which is falling short. Question them as a Prophet (as) questioned the resurrection to have certainity in your belief.

wassalam

Fatima said:>>>>>I am sure you would remember a Prophet (as) asking Allah swt that he wants to see Him. The answer was, you can not bear it but if this mountain can bear the 'tajaali' then you will, mountain was crushed and the Prophet (as) fell unconcious and started repenting as soon as he woke up. <<<<<<<

This Prophet is Moses

Fatima said:>>>>>Now another example a Prophet (as) asked Allah swt that please show me how You raise dead back to life. Allah swt asked, don't you have belief. Prophet (as) replied, i do have belief but i want to believe with certainity. So Allah swt told him to slaughter four birds and mix their parts up and then put then on four different hills. Then call them and the pieces all flew, joining right piece to right bird and came to him as original bird.<<<<<<<

This prophet you mentioned I believe is Abraham?

Fatima so basically from the end part of your message to me that my understanding is falling short because I question? Or is it because I question but fail to understand? Apparently you haven't read the thread I made in the General Discussion section a Philosopher IBN RUSHD whom you have mentioned here as one of your examples of notable scholars! IBN RUSHD even himself question the attributes of God similar to how I question them but all this discussion about God's knowledge is not the point.

I tend to think what I say even if I'm clear and descriptive you still run away with paragraphs of my words and use them to justify your position for whatever reason. The point here is that my faith in Islam dwindles not because of the Qur'an but mostly because of people. The fact that congregation is essential to Islam I cannot uphold this necessity if I do not feel a sense of brotherhood. Islam, as I have understood for 6 whole years is cultural specific and my original intent on converting to Islam was on the premise that it was not culturally specific although it is.

Call me "the devil in black" if you will but this lack of sensation in brotherhood has open up my eyes to a world of other things that I had originally jumped in without even considering them. I'd like to say that at the time of my conversion I was still grieving my mother. So perhaps I converted to Islam to feel in the hole from the loss of my mother. There are many variables in my life to why I converted. I never converted to Islam to have a deeper faith in God because my faith in God has always remained. I was always a believer in a single Artisan-even while I was a Baptist Christian.

Just because things were written in book doesn't mean that mistakes happen and I'm not saying that the Qur'an has any mistakes actually however humans are fallible beings. God is the absolute truth and I do not believe that God's knowledge can be contained in any book of human assimilation (Yes the Qur'an as it is written down on this earthly plane was assimilated by humans although its revelation was not). I'm no Arabic linguist so I'm in no position to critique it but more importantly I was saying that in the Qur'an God calls people to investigate, so this is what I'm doing. If you're a believer in God's will then you'd understand as well as agree that he even wills people to Islam and away Islam for a special purpose.

Perhaps he wills people for a specific time and wills them away for another reason. But hey, if we get into this discussion we'd have to talk about Freewill right? Well anyway my point is that faith in a divine revelation isn't always easy to maintain and I'm sorry that you moderators cannot understand that. It appears that most of you do not even have faith in me or even compassion for my struggles. Most of the sincere messages I receive are from non-muslims on this website! How sad, this behavior is evident and evidence for me as valid proof on why I truly struggle in Islam!

BTW I leave you with this quote from my thread said by the GREAT IMAM AVERROES:

and the more complete cognizance of the art in them is, the more complete cognizance of the Artisan-And if the Law (The Qur'an) has recommended and urged consideration of existing things then it is evident that what this name indicates is either obligatory or recommended by the Law

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Brother i dont think your understanding is falling short because you question. You only get understanding through questioning, thinking and pondering over matters. You need to honestly ask yourself, why are you asking? To figure out the ruling or to prove it wrong?

I am not that good at expressing and writing some thing or reading hard solid words for that matters. But let me tell you that if any of us on the board do try to reason with you then only because we want you to have belief with certainity. We are trying to clear things not prove you wrong. What would proving you wrong or pushing you away from deen give us. Actually that might even anger our dear Lord and result in our losing the way. Only your own will tell you off about bad stuff even though it can result in you thinking bad of them. If your mum tells you to quit smoking because you could end up with lung cancer and another smoker sympathizes with you, who is the one who really cares?

wassalam

Israfil's situation is very sad indeed, as it appears his faith and proper understanding of Islam is weak.  Over the years he has been warned and cautioned concerning philosophy.  Some early scholars concerned themselves with debate and logical discussions only to find themeselves astray and/or distorting Islam.  If we simply follow the Quran in dealing with issues, both men of letters and common people would adhere firmly to Divine Guidance.  Allah says with respect to protecting His Quran: "Verily, it is We Who hae sent down the revelation and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)." 15:9

Interesting indeed!

My comments regarding Islam and philosophy are not used to disprove anything. My faith as one member says here is sad, well, I'm not looking for pity. My faith perhaps is dwindling but the kind of remarks as to call my faith sad is the very lack of brotherhood I see in the world. All humans are capable of dwindling faith. As you all say "it's my reaction." What about my reaction? You only know me by words. My physical presence you don't know. You don't know whether I'm smiling, laughing or crying.

Ok I understand where everyone is coming from because you have said it more than once to me. I want everyone to understand where I'm coming from. Not only have I been judged here but have had my personal past used BY MUSLIMS mind you against me just to justify some sick comment towards whatever subject I was dicussing. To me that is not brotherhood that is called backbiting. Back at the mosque I used to go to I've had others form 'cliques' with each other.

The Muslim community in Souther California is very broad and although not all share the attributes of isolation which I have experienced, it does exist nonetheless. Been turned down from marriage cause of my culture, not once, but twice. I have had many bad experiences and again, I say, this has nothing to do with the principles of Islam, rather its adherents. Many people here have said "Pray to Allah" or "do this or so and so" this is usually the cop out case for me. In order to change the Muslim society we must be productive with solutions that are productive. Part of being productive is  admitting that a real problem exist in the Muslim community.

But so far here all we are saying is how sad my faith is? How does that help me? how can that be theraputic to my situation? Amah you said its how my reaction is right? But perhaps members should be choosy on their words because its called sensitivity.

amah wrote: Bismillah Arrahmaan Arraheem. Assalaamualaikum Brother Israfil, This is very difficult to explain to you, believe me. You need explanation, we will give it Insha Allah to the best of our abilities... you need moral support, you will get plenty here... you need help to understand Islam better, everyone will be more than willing. But you know why people start shying away, it is because of your reaction brother. Brother please try to see things from our point of view. It appears you feel offended by what we say so we refrain from hurting you...YES, no one wants to hurt you. But I think you do not believe that. I think, you do not have very supportive people around you wherever you live, hence you have developed these feelings. Islam IS about brotherhood. But we don't get to see it much...but if you really look around you will see it....even right here on this forum. So many people here are good to you, Iam talking about Muslims too. When things go wrong, sometimes we have to look at ourselves and question ourselves "am I doing something wrong that is taking away some people from me?" Sometimes, unknowingly, we give some signs to people. It is ok to ask questions. Allah asked us to "ponder" over the Quran, not question its authenticity (as a muslim). As a muslim I will quote the Quran because they are Allah's words, better than anything in this world, but will you like it if I use words from the Quran? Why do some people get offended if we use Allah's words so often? I hope you are understanding me. Brother, the way you want us to be more receptive to you, you too need to be more receptive to us. Sincere advice from this sister, please read more of the Quran (and ponder over it) and ask Allah for Hidayah. Try to forget the people who are of no help, there is no helper like Allah, there is no protector like Allah. May Allah guide us all. Our duas are with you Sincerely Your sister in Deen.

Brother Israfil,

I don't know if you want a response here or not from anyone other than the moderators, so not being sure of this, I'll be brief.

Brother please try to see things from our point of view.

Don't you feel the love and companionship in this statement?

Why do some people get offended if we use Allah's words so often?

Why don't you, Sister Amah, reflect upon this; look at the answers people have already copiously supplied to you, and figure out the answer to your own query.

Salaamu Alaykum

Israfil, accept Islam as it is, questions lead to doubts, and doubts eventually lead a believer astray !

ak_m_f wrote: Muslim_brother wrote: Israfil, accept Islam as it is, questions lead to doubts, and doubts eventually lead a believer astray !     Why cant we question Islam? we have nothing to hide.

OK, you can question Islam, but when you get the answer, don't question the answer, otherwise you will go inside deeper, deeper, deeper.....and then you will find yourself lost. satan is our plain enemy

ak_m_f wrote: what if answer dosnt Satisfies you? I miss those old times when scholars sat and talked about Islam.

hmmmm......there are some answers which you need to accept without questioning, example, we muslims believe in Allah though we don't see Allah, we muslims believe in paradise and hell, though we don't see them, thus we muslims believe in the unseen (ghaib)

ak_m_f wrote: what if answer dosnt Satisfies you? I miss those old times when scholars sat and talked about Islam.

ofcourse, you can ask scholars even today, feel free, scholars are still there in the world, inshaAllah doubts can be cleared through Islamic scholars, but nobody should make their own theories, predictions etc. like today's scientists do...

ak_m_f wrote: but nobody should make their own theories, predictions etc. like today's scientists do... Sorry I dont get this part. are you against science?

i am not totally against science, but some part of science, example, I don't believe in Darwin's theory ragarding evolution, but I believe in what Allah has said in the Qur'an regarding creation of man

Suleyman wrote: Separating science from Islam and Allah is not an good idea,science is the sign of Allah also denies Darwinism,please cahange the quantity and the quality of your libraries,thx....

I did not get what you wrote. I said that I am not totally against science. I am only against some part of science. I do not believe in Darwin's theory of evolution. But I believe in what Allah says in the Qur'an about the creation of mankind

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Brother israfil, no one here thinks that your case is sad and taking pity on you. I am sure brother must have meant that you feeling down due to behaviour of others is sadening.

You know what people around me made my belief stronger because they let me down. People always expect high of others, hardly forgive you for your mistakes and keep reminding you of the past. Allah swt does not, so please dont be disapointed about the deen due to people. I am not sure whether its practical for you or not but when i dont agree with some1 after a while i leave it alone. No one in this day and age knows the exact position of so many laws. All you need to know is your heart is sincere and you dont associate anyone with Allah swt. Follow the deen brought by Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) to best of your ability and ask Allah for forgiveness for short comings. InshaAllah you are and will be ok.

wassalam

Fatima thank you for your heart felt message and I appreciate the sincerity you bring. These are things I'm trying daily and its unfortunate for me to have to suffer indeed however as have mentioned before there are variables within my life that has lead me to this point. I believe I have already established that I do not question God or God's existence I believe what I mentioed here is my faith which, we have already discuss in length already. But it is appropriate that we carefully choose our words in addressing the Muslim brothers and sisters when they are suffering from faith.

Call it sugar coating or call it sensitivity training but I believe when we address each other it is best to be careful in how we choose our words. This is the problem I had with a few moderators which sister Herjihad had brought to light. When comments are addressed to me such as "You have to see where I'm coming from" takes away my plea for understanding because if I'm crying out for help one should not overlook my emotion and distress with the reply "You should see it from our way."

A lesson about people guys (I exclude sister herjihad since she already understands where I'm going with this) When you are addressing a person in crisis be sensitive. Listen to what the person says and address what the person is saying. It does not always help to throw scripture because if that were the case, I wouldn't be in the position that I'm in now. Look at this as counseling rather than preaching. Let me ask you can you ALWAYS cure person suffering from thoughts of suicide with Biblical verses or Quranic verses? No. Sometimes they need counseling to address the problem. I'm not saying I'm in that same boat but that is an example.

When some of you give me adivce none of you even asked me "Why are you feeling this way?" I'm surprised none of you asked that. You think cause I said some stuff here you know? If you asked maybe I'd tell you. None of you, surprisingly even offered to speak with me privately to be more indepth of my situation. I feel that a lot times we offer what I call adivice from a distance.

That is, we will give them supporting advice from afar but wish not the other persons problems impede on ours. Therefore we tell people "Pray to God and you'll feel better" rather addressing the problems personally first hand. Sorry, maybe that's me being a psychologist in that respect but it gives me comfort to know that there are people really care about my situation and my spiritual rehabiliation.

Generally directed, ok

"Pray to God and you'll feel better"

When one says this, what makes you think that the person who is struggling is not praying to God ??

If that is all it took to make one feel better......then everyone would be doing that.

Megatron wrote: I'm kind of upset that this issue has attempted to focus on Israfil, when he is expressing a relevant issue.  I sense that people are upset about Israfil "questioning" and "taking apart" certain views regarding Islam.  Maybe I'm generalizing and I'm not looking in depth into the issue but that's the impression that I get. If Islam is so perfect, why should Israfil be castigated for questioning the issues and attempting to dismantle certain viewpoints held by the religion?  Some of the most steadfast reverts to Islam approached the religion with skepticism.  You also must understand that some people like to take apart arguments as a means of understanding them.  If you approach an idea in Islam with a skeptical mind and through search and discovery you eventually understand its doesn't that show the strength of Islam better than blindly accepting those beliefs? You can criticize people as much as you want saying, "that I need to read more" or "your religion is weak", but honestly, I've read the Quran till I'm blue in the face and it leaves a lot to interpretation.  There are many issues in the Quran that are not discussed and the Quran admits this itself: [18:109]  Say, �Had the ocean served as ink to write about Allah, then surely the ocean would run out, but the narrative about Allah would not. Even if We supplied that much more ink as a refill!" That being said, there is a lot about Islam that is up for debate.  Also being involved in educating students, I tell you that if you ask them to memorize information, they preform very poorly.  If you ask them to understand, cogitate and debate issues they learn much much more.  I believe the same can also be said about Islam.

Thank you Megatron for understanding.....I understand that there are both sides that comment on the issue and I appreciate everyone's input. suzanne regarding your message, first off, there is nothing inappropriate about PM. You are not in my presence and nor am i in yours so where do you find PMing me inappropriate. Remember if your intentions are to help me that is all you need however if that is your only excuse then I can only say that I cannot depend on you to help.

As far as your comments concerning what others have said to me, that is fine howver someone judging me is not the words of Allah. I have been judged here many times and its quite unfortunate that I take from those experiences and feel in the sense that majority of my brethren are against me.

Br. Israfil, I think i know where you're comming from in terms of hearing muslims talk about hate things vs not hating things. Have you ever listened to Dr. Hassan Hathout?  He is a wonderful scholar and it's a great blessing to be in his presence when he talks to us in terms of how and where the muslim ummah is going off course.  He's got a book, Reading The Muslim Mind.

in my dad's website he put in a good deal about Dr. Hathout and his book :

http://www.islamic-study.org/Reading%20the%20Muslim%20Mind.htm - http://www.islamic-study.org/Reading%20the%20Muslim%20Mind.h tm

If you want to hear a good dialogue about how islam relates to jews, listen to Dr. Hathout answering the hard questions thrown at him by Jewish scholar Laura Schlessinger in her radio show.

http://www.islamicity.com/multimedia/radio/ch1100/ - http://www.islamicity.com/multimedia/radio/ch1100/