Salam,

Many peoples said that the downfall of Islam caused by muslims distant to Islam. Is it true? If yes, which part of Islam that they distant to?

Assalamu alaikum,

I think "intellectual discussion and debate on Islam"  still exist since al-ghazali till know. But the discussion is only FIQH (islamic law/shariah) that basically only create DO & DO NOT LIST, and even then the most do and do list most the is talking about the ritual things like shalat, fasting, hijab, etc that basically managing our relationship between human and God. They didn't talk much about managing relationship among human being such as how to help each other, caring the poor, the health of the peoples, the environment, the economy, the social relationship etc.

The proof for this, you can find many books written in fiqh/shariah but none in other fields during that period (1100 till early 1900). And the other proof is that during the very same period there is no school/universities control by muslim that tought other than quran and hadith (no economy, no math, no science, etc).

Muslims fell because of their indulgence in wine and women. Persians and Romans had fallen because of the same reasons before them. We fell because we digress from our religion and Allah punished us accordingly. Our salvation lies only in returning to our faith and not questioning it.

Zaman.

unity1 wrote: It is quiet surprizing to note that West are making progress by moving away from the teachings of their religion but we are lagging behind because we are moving away from the teachings of our religion.

I think you make a mistake in comparing Islam and the West for one thing the West is not a religion or just one nation, it comprises of many things which does also include Islam because of some western people who have choosen to become muslim. Islam is pretty much on its own and is not a place.  Now if you say Christianity and Islam yes you may have a point, but it seems you have equated the West as Christian because you mention "their religion" the west is not Christian (even thou it comprises more of the religion), this is like saying that the east is Islam, which it isn't, the East also comprises of many religions and nations, the East is not a religion either so you can't say they are moving away from their religion (if they are).

If might be better to rephrase it: It is quiet surprizing to note that Christianity is making progress by moving away from the teachings of their religion but we are lagging behind because we are moving away from the teachings of our religion.

From what I know, Christianity had to change for it to stay, it realised that to keep the people some things had to change and change with the times, a religion is dependent on its folowers to survive. Islam needs to do the same. And Islam also needs a central body like Christianity to regulate those changes in a proper way otherswise people will make their own interpretation left right and centre, and it seems some people will make fatwas whether they are in a position do so or not. I truly think if their was a central body, then places like some places in Africa who are islamically run but do things in a corrupt way, just look at Sudan and most of the Middle east would be in line with the same teachings, Arabia wouldn't be so different to Iraq or Afghan since things would be the same, and those living in the west would also be inline with middle east and Sudan. The Catholic church is pretty much run the same with the same regulations and with any changes posed it has to go before the vatican, but Islam and mosques do not have this, so teachings would go by the way side, scholars can only do so much and then it is sort of by their own interpretations and understandings.

Anyway, just my thoughts and I'm sure there is room for improvement, and another thing Islam needs to compromise on some things and this Islam, or should I say muslims will not do. If you are in a relationship with another and a need to co exist, compromises need to be made. 

If we really want to win a respectable position in this world and want to become a progressive nation, then we should follow the true teachings of Islam.

Islam is not really a nation  if it were then it should be in one place/country with the country name Islam

ZamanH wrote: Our salvation lies only in returning to our faith and not questioning it. Zaman.

oh, you need to question everything  that is also the way to progress. If you don't question, where is your learning ?

unity1 wrote: Suddenly ,Muslims lost their position and West started to gain power,people present their comments on this historical fact but the true cause of the downfall of muslims is still unknown . Lets discuss����..

It is interesting that the cause of the downfall of muslims or should it be islam, is still unknown, perhaps if one goes to the point where it started to change and see from there...

I think the question then could be, muslims changed because.....

Things change because people change and/or evironment changes then people change.

Well, the ancient Aztec's sudden disappearance is still a mystery

Angel, you have made some very good points. 

I think, though, that it might help to think of the west as not so much a place as a way of life (secularism, materialism, and so forth).

And to think of Islam not so much a religion but also as a way of life practiced by all its adherents (God consciousness), and therefore a 'nation', as in ummah, or community of believers (who do live all over the world).

I am not saying all 'westerners' are secular materialists, nor that all Muslims are practicing a life of God consciousness, but the generalization is, I think, what makes a lot of Muslims compare the 'west' with 'Islam' the way they do.

I don't think it is so much the 'western people' against the 'Islamic people' as it is what are thought of as 'western' values against 'Islamic' values.  Maybe this is just confusing things more!  Anyway, I hope that helps a bit to explain what seems to be the 'west' versus 'Islamic' rhetoric of so many.

Peace, ummziba.

ummziba wrote: Angel, you have made some very good points.  I think, though, that it might help to think of the west as not so much a place as a way of life (secularism, materialism, and so forth).

No, I don't think that would work, for one there are many way of lifes.

And to think of Islam not so much a religion but also as a way of life practiced by all its adherents (God consciousness), and therefore a 'nation', as in ummah, or community of believers (who do live all over the world).

If I'm not mistaken this is already and has been.  I guess nation could be as in unmmah but I don't agree with it for the reason I mentioned that nation denotes a place/country, Islam isn't.

[quote]I am not saying all 'westerners' are secular materialists, nor that all Muslims are practicing a life of God consciousness, but the generalization is, I think, what makes a lot of Muslims compare the 'west' with 'Islam' the way they do.

I don't think it is so much the 'western people' against the 'Islamic people' as it is what are thought of as 'western' values against 'Islamic' values.  Maybe this is just confusing things more!  Anyway, I hope that helps a bit to explain what seems to be the 'west' versus 'Islamic' rhetoric of so many.[/quote]

I don't know, I think its perhaps Democracy it seems to be the only thing left.

But islam v's west is not really correct, one is a location and the other isn't its like comparing apples and oranges. The mistake of islam/muslims is thinking that the west is Christianity, its not Christianity. It's like saying / having the underlining message, that the west is america and america is the west, it is simply not true. How would be if others thought of the Middle east as or equals islamic? which in reality its not, not all of the Middle east or its people are islamic. As it is Arabs are generally thought of as muslims, and this is not true, not all arabs are muslims. The East as I said before is not islam nor is islam the west and doesn't get called that or compared nor is there an underlining message that its so, so why then is it only with the west ? now I think that is the question

Now as for the history and why the sudden downfall of muslims, well that still remains a mystery  

I quite agree with Unity1 in saying that the main cause of the 'downfall' of Muslims is that they no longer follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, this is evident everywhere.  But, how to we do anything about this?  Education is certainly the key, as well as good example.

Muslims need to pay attention to how they are perceived by others.  Being good role models (along the lines of the perfect role model, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), would do a lot to influence people.

Ensuring all members of the ummah get a good education would be most helpful as well - there is a high degree of illiteracy in the Muslim world.  How can a person follow the Qur'an and Sunnah if they cannot even read them?  And I don't mean Muslims needs to learn Arabic right away, good translations in the persons mother tongue are a good place to start.  Then, we need to be supportive and helpful to others in learning Arabic so every Muslim has the opportunity to read and understand Allah's message.

Muslims need to support one another in ensuring we live as Allah intended, by the glorious criterion He set down in the Qur'an.  And I don't mean by force, but again, by good example and education.

So, education, especially literacy, is of the utmost importance.  And next to that has to be an ummah that sets a good example to one another and the rest of the world by living in the model set by the Prophet (pbuh).

And this is my humble opinion.

Peace, ummziba.

Angel,

I do understand the points you are making.  You are correct to say comparing the west to Islam is like comparing oranges and apples, in the way that you perceive 'west' and 'Islam'.  However, I don't think I made my point clearly enough.

What I was trying to get across to you is how I perceive some Muslims view things, so that you could understand why they seem to compare the west and Islam.  It is not the same way you perceive these two things.

When I hear or see the word west (or western), I do not think 'Christian'.  What I think is north America, Europe, Australia and other such places where secular democracy is the norm.  That, to me, defines 'west'.

When I think Islam or Islamic or Muslim, I think the entire worldwide ummah, no countries, no ethnicities, no colour...only the community of believers, which I think of as a 'nation' (not in the way you think of nation).

So, when you see Muslims comparing these two things, you are looking at it from your perspective, which makes the comparison wrong, and you are correct in that, from your perspective.

When Muslims (and I don't speak for all, but am just trying to clarify here) compare these two things, they are making the comparisons from their perspective.

So, when I think west, I think: secular, materialistic, not God conscious.  Of course this is not correct, only a stereotype, but it is what I think when I hear 'west'.  When I hear Islam, I think of God conscious believers all over the world, and of course, this doesn't hold true in every case either.

Maybe I am 'beating a dead horse'.  I am not saying either view is right or wrong, Angel, only that both sides have a completely different perspective of what west and Islam means. 

I think I am being as clear as mud  !  Oh well, I tried.  Do you see what I mean at all?  (I hope I am not annoying you, dear!)

Peace, ummziba.

ummziba wrote: When I hear or see the word west (or western), I do not think 'Christian'.  What I think is north America, Europe, Australia and other such places where secular democracy is the norm.  That, to me, defines 'west'.

I sometimes think that too

When I think Islam or Islamic or Muslim, I think the entire worldwide ummah, no countries, no ethnicities, no colour...only the community of believers, which I think of as a 'nation' (not in the way you think of nation). So, when you see Muslims comparing these two things, you are looking at it from your perspective, which makes the comparison wrong, and you are correct in that, from your perspective. When Muslims (and I don't speak for all, but am just trying to clarify here) compare these two things, they are making the comparisons from their perspective. So, when I think west, I think: secular, materialistic, not God conscious.  Of course this is not correct, only a stereotype, but it is what I think when I hear 'west'.  When I hear Islam, I think of God conscious believers all over the world, and of course, this doesn't hold true in every case either.

I understand, I see it from your angle

Maybe I am 'beating a dead horse'.  I am not saying either view is right or wrong, Angel, only that both sides have a completely different perspective of what west and Islam means.

Agree

I think I am being as clear as mud  !  Oh well, I tried.  Do you see what I mean at all?  (I hope I am not annoying you, dear!) Peace, ummziba.

No you are not annoying, I see what you mean 

So what of History now

-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

The progress of Muslims actually started after the end of the rule of the 1st four rightly guided Caliphes and ended approximately before or after 12th Century.

Muslims created Ottoman empire which was to make deep inroads in to Europe and the Great Mughal Empire of India was yet to created in the fourteenth century.

Yes, I agree that these days Ulemas donot concentrate on developing relations between human beings and only want muslims to become limited in their approach.

Only thing that is common amongst all the Muslim is their religion. We can't hope to unite if we don't make ourselves strong in our religion. Ulemas alone can guide us back to our faith.

Zaman

It is interesting that the cause of the downfall of muslims or should it be islam, is still unknown, perhaps if one goes to the point where it started to change and see from there...

Atleast, in case of India, Muslims fell because the rulers were weak and they trusted the WEstern traders, too much. The rulers also were exceedingly indulgent in wine and women. Muslims empire was created by daring and smart Muslim soldiers, whereas, Western empire was created by unscrupulous traders by intrigue, deception and betrayal. One good example is how Lesseps cheated the Emir of Egypt into handing over the control of Suez canal to the Westerners.

In case of the Ottomons, rulers have became overindulgent in wine and women and ignored their subjects and the WEstern threat.

Although, Muslims were lagging behind the West in the field of science and technology, they couldn't have fallen just because of that. If the rulers had been strong they could have been able to catch up with the West. Japan is a good example of that. It became as prosperous and technologically advanced as the WEst and thus escaped colonization.

Zaman.

Angel wrote: ummziba wrote: Angel, you have made some very good points.  I think, though, that it might help to think of the west as not so much a place as a way of life (secularism, materialism, and so forth). No, I don't think that would work, for one there are many way of lifes.

If you look at the works of  writers like Voltaire, Huxley, Roussaeu etc. who were the chief proponents of the Western Ciivilization as we know it, they were all secular and materiliastic and espoused a utilitarian view. Also, although the West didn't succumb to the Communists, Communists did affect the Western way of thinking considerably.

Thanks, Angel, for understanding my long winded explaination!

And yes, Zaman, poor leadership was a major factor in the decline of Islamic civilization.  Unfortunately, we still suffer from that affliction!

So, besides educating ourselves about our religion and doing our best to follow it as it should be followed, how do we get rid of the bad leadership and install good leadership?  How do we encourage good leadership among ourselves and among our children?  Where do we even start?

Peace, ummziba.

Here is a very good article that addresses what we have been discussing in this thread!

So, besides educating ourselves about our religion and doing our best to follow it as it should be followed, how do we get rid of the bad leadership and install good leadership?  How do we encourage good leadership among ourselves and among our children?  Where do we even start?

We should first get rid of our fear of death and love of this world.

Regarding discussion between ukhti ummziba and Angel, I know a good book by Mariam Jamilah titled "Islam versus the West". I am not able to get a link for that book on the internet, though.

As Salamu Alaikum  

Masha Allah good discussion here

Most impressed by both these quotes

ZamanH wrote: So, besides educating ourselves about our religion and doing our best to follow it as it should be followed, how do we get rid of the bad leadership and install good leadership?  How do we encourage good leadership among ourselves and among our children?  Where do we even start? We should first get rid of our fear of death and love of this world.

The Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) did warn us about it.

During a discussion with his Companions about the weakness of his Ummah one of the companions, (Radhi Allahu Anhum), asked: O Messenger of Allah! Will that relate to being few in numbers? The Prophet said: No, but your huge number will be of little effectiveness, and (Allah) will cast Al-Wahan in your hearts. They said: O Messenger of Allah, what does Al-Wahan mean? He said, Your hearts are strongly attached to life luxuries and you feel strong aversion to death. (Reported by Ahmad and Abu-Dawud)

It is very sad Muslims are controlling most of the worlds natural resources but they are puppets to the Kufr.

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala guide the Ummah of Muhammad (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) to the True Deen. Ameen!

As Salaam Alaikum Alwardah,

That is a very inspiring hadith and has been posted in this site, more than once.

ZamanH wrote: So, besides educating ourselves about our religion and doing our best to follow it as it should be followed, how do we get rid of the bad leadership and install good leadership?  How do we encourage good leadership among ourselves and among our children?  Where do we even start? We should first get rid of our fear of death and love of this world.

Start with yourself.

ummziba wrote: Despite having the guidance of the Quran and the noble teachings of the holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in their midst, the Muslims cannot possibly be role models and take mankind from the depths of darkness to light without first reforming themselves.     I particularly like that last paragraph! Peace, ummziba.

Me too

Unity1, ok

Bismillah,

Interesting discussion with some informative contributions. May i add that the downfall of Muslims could also be paralleled to the times when Muslims were getting more concerned with quantity rather than quality (very different from the early ummah of Medina)... gaining territories without properly establishing understanding of Islaam amongst people inhabiting them. Hence, Islaam became diluted with cultures, traditions, customs and beliefs of non-Islaamic origin� many became Muslims by birth and not as many by true sincerity and understanding. Muslims became fragmented. But this can change provided we change. Just a thought.

unity1 wrote: Asalam Aalaikum   It is quiet surprizing to note that West are making progress by moving away from the teachings of their religion but we are lagging behind because we are moving away from the teachings of our religion.    Regards,

Hmmm...define "progress". Sure - we have lots of natty technology, we have more money than anyone could have dreamt of and many millions of us live in relatively stable, affluent societies...but at what cost?

Many people are isolated, many people feel they have no real communities to turn to, suicides are all too common, etc. Sure - we have broken away from the cruelty that was the church and its (many) twisted followers and employees (as it were), and sure - religious figures don't have the power they used to, but now _other_ people have that power and many of them are just as twisted and corrupt.

But I guess, at least, we can vote for some of these people, unlike in the church. But then again, Big Business is the Real Enemy now, as far as I am concerned, and we don't get to vote for them, do we?

Meh. I don't know - it's All Too Hard.

But I guess we have to keep fighting for the right and good things - as long as we teach people that Right and Good things exist, what they are and how we can practice them.

Kim...

i dont think it is possible for any nation to be civilize or successful is the nation were to practice true islam.

the reason, i believe is due to the emulation of muhammad's lifestyle and what he had commanded. all faithful muslims must obey the words and life of muhammad.

below is a clip of video on hand cutting.  

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/handcutting.htm - http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/handcutting.htm

unity1 wrote: ZamanH wrote: Muslims fell because of their indulgence in wine and women. Persians and Romans had fallen because of the same reasons before them. We fell because we digress from our religion and Allah punished us accordingly. Our salvation lies only in returning to our faith and not questioning it. Zaman. Asalam Aalaikum, How does "eeman" and "aqidah"(belief in Allah) assists and guide a person or a group of individuals in fields like Science, Technology and Economics? I hope my concern is clear. Regards,

They create conditions where people can progress in Science, Technology and Economics, and therefore are more neccessary than them (that is S,T and E etc.).

That is aptly demonstrated in spectacular success of the Arabs in these fields, immediately after they converted to Islam. Before Islam, they were nothing. After they converted to Islam, not only did they become prosperous themselves but became a beckon to civilization to the rest of the world in their times. They brought prosperity to the lands they conquered and people who converted to Islam identified themselves more with Islam than the pre-islamic culture that existed in their times. It were they who actually pulled the Europe out of darkness

WEstern contribution to science is highly overrated. Unlike Muslims, they impoverish whichever land they visited. Muslims empire was created by daring and smart soldiers; theirs was created by cowardly unscrupulous traders. Japan was the only country that escaped colonization by the WEst and it became as technologically advanced and prosperous as the WEst, while even countries like India and China, which are rich in natural resources became very poor (because of WEstern rule). West didn't do anything productive what others couldn't have done.

unity1 wrote: ZamanH wrote: Muslims fell because of their indulgence in wine and women. Persians and Romans had fallen because of the same reasons before them. We fell because we digress from our religion and Allah punished us accordingly. Our salvation lies only in returning to our faith and not questioning it. Zaman. Asalam Aalaikum, Well,you might be right ,but even the Westerners are indulged in wine,gambling and other sorts of activities but still they are ahead of us in Science ,Technology and Economy. In wordly progress ,I don't think that eeman(Faith and true belief in God) is essential since the main purpose of "eeman" and "aqidah" is to create fear of Allah(swt) in the heart of the person so that he may keep himself away from haram deeds and perform good deeds in his life. These things are essential for spiritual and religious aspects of a person. How does "eeman" and "aqidah"(belief in Allah) assists and guide a person or a group of individuals in fields like Science, Technology and Economics? I hope my concern is clear. Regards,

I was waiting to answer your post for a long time, but I couldn't because I was not allowed.

ZamanH is absolutely right. Westerners are ahead of others in the field of science, technology and economics etc. only because of their immense wealth. There are many talented people in other parts of the world but they can not realise their potential because they lack financial support.

unity1 wrote: Asalam Aalaikum Brother Zaman, I don't think any muslim in the world doubts or questions his or her faith ,it is actually our isolation from the teachings of Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet(pbuh) which caused our downfall. It is quiet surprizing to note that West are making progress by moving away from the teachings of their religion but we are lagging behind because we are moving away from the teachings of our religion. If we really want to win a respectable position in this world and want to become a progressive nation, then we should follow the true teachings of Islam. May Allah(swt) guide us and help us understand the true teachings of Islam. Ameen. Regards,

Wasalaam aikalum,

I live in the southwestern desert in the USA, and I am Muslimah. I dont see Christians around me at very progressive, in fact they are bogged down with more rules than we have! The men are too busy gawking at the near naked women to get much done! In fact, the near naked women lash out at the men for gawking and can't figure out why the incidence of rape is so high here! The hotter the climate, the more the skin shows. Go figure?