Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is God? Would anyone like to have a go at this?

(2) �You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.� This command is against making a idol, a visible representation of God. There is no image we can create that can accurately portray God. To make an idol represent God is to worship a false god.  (SOURCE: http://www.gotquestions.org/Ten-Commandments.html - http://www.gotquestions.org/Ten-Commandments.html )


Look at the different Sects of Christianity today & many other religions, they are putting idols or pictures and bowing down to them claiming it's an image of Jesus (PBUH) or another so-called God. 

Islam is AGAINST this, this is why practicing Muslims who truely fear Allah Ta'la pray facing the Holy City of Mecca & do not have images and idols around the prayer area.

Salam

David C said: Jesus is God, but God is more than just Jesus.

Jesus is NOT GOD.  Jesus is our Prophet (PBUH) & a creation of GOD.

Salams

The following is according to the BIBLE>>>
 

Hello and thank you for posting. To keep this post within the topic please refrain from deviating from the topic. Again the topic is,

"Does the New Testament teach Jesus is God?" To be honest to the biblical text let us not place our own ideas upon the text but let the scriptures speak for themselves. This is a good application when reading anything. Before we continue please know Christianity like Islam is a monothiest religion, we believe there is only one God.

Now here are a few passages from the Bible pertaining to Jesus.

John 1:1- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

When is this beginning? This beginning is before the creation of the world because in verse 3 it talks about creation.

Well who is the "Word"?  John 1:14 tells us, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." So Jesus is the Word who was with God before the creation.

This Word is also declared, "the Word was God" in John 1:1. This is not a disgussion on the Trinity so lets not go there right now. However the Bible tells us Jesus is God.

DavidC wrote: Yes, just like a cup of seawater is the ocean. If you take a cup of water from the sea and place it on the beach it is 100% seawater. But it is not a ocean. Jesus is God, but God is more than just Jesus. DavidC

Good analogy

rbaitz posted:  However the Bible tells us Jesus is God.

THIS IS UNTRUE.  Go over the 10 commandments again in what Christains are suppose to believe.

Salams.

Salams,

I worship One God. All of genuine Christendom worships One God. There is only One God, not two, not three, but One God. The Bible says there is only One God, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One". The Old and New Testaments both teach this.

Now we as human beings are finite, we don't possess all knowledge, we are limited, in our understanding of the world and God. However God's revelation to man which is accepted by Christians does teach there is but One God. So as believers we bend our knee to scripture and accept it as true even though we may not always fully comprehend it. Next we find in the Bible that there are Three Persons co-equal and co-eternal within the One God. One What and three Who's. Different categories. One God and three Persons- Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Does the Bible teach us this? Is the Father called God? Is the Son called God? Is the Holy Spirit called God?

the Father,

"Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me." John 8:42

"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father." John 6:46 

"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." John 1:18

the Son,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 (the Word is Jesus, John 1:14) 

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." John 1:18 

"But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS. And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;" Hebrews 1:8-10.(The context is contrasting angels versus God the eternal Son who is said has a Throne, is called God who is forever and ever, with a scepter of righteousness which means He rules in righteousness, He laid the foundation of the earth, so He is the Creator. All this is said of Jesus.).

Would you like me to continue with such verses? Jesus Himself declared Himself to be pre-existant. Existing before His own mother was born. Does Islam teach of a pre-existance before our own physical life? Listen to Jesus' own words, "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." John 8:58. Jesus existed all the way back in the time of Abraham! How could this be? "In the beginning was the Word..." John 1:1. The Word being Jesus existed before creation itself, which He created as you see in the verse above and in others. This is why He was or existed before Abraham.

the Holy Spirit,

 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." Acts 5:3-4

In conclusion we find the Bible does teach there is but One true God, not two or three or more. However this One true God is made up of Three distinct Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, co-equal and eternal, yet all are in unity within our understanding of One true God. Do I understand this? No! However as a finite being not knowing everything, I must bow my knee to God's revelation and accept it. If I did any other I would be denying His own word. I cannot fully understand this teaching, but I can apprehend it from the Bible.

Robin

Dear rbaitz

Its really strange when you started with One God, not two, not three but one God (from OT) and then conclude it with three distinct persons (from NT) ... See here is what you said

rbaitz wrote: ...... There is only One God, not two, not three, but One God. The Bible says there is only One God, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One". The Old and New Testaments both teach this.

rbaitz wrote:  In conclusion we find the Bible does teach there is but One true God, not two or three or more. However this One true God is made up of Three distinct Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, co-equal and eternal, yet all are in unity within our understanding of One true God.

 Is it not a strange equation? Secondly, is it really important to recognize the God in three "distinct persons"? Can't we just Pray to God (call it the composite God or the Ultimate God or what ever we concieve of just one true God)? How does it matters to our faith if in our prayers we simply call this one True God only and do not associate any other distinctions with Him? Do you think, He would not listen to us or would He mind for not dividing Him into three seperate ones?

To answer your second and third questions, yes it is important to recognize Jesus as the eternal Son of God. Why do I believe this? Because the Bible teaches it, read for yourself, "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" John 20:31. The whole reason why the apostle John wrote this gospel was because he knew who Jesus was and is and wanted others to know and believe in Jesus as the Son of God, the Christ. Now throughout the New Testament Jesus is always refered to as the unique Son of God. So it cannot be claimed by anyone that Jesus is a son of God as all believers are son�s of God. Next it is eternally important that you understand this because those who denied Jesus as the Son of God, the Christ, are not only denying the Son of God but are also denying the Father, God. And God will deny them who deny His only begotten Son, "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also" 1 John 2:23. Last Jesus speaking, "But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God" Luke 12:9. Our acceptance of who Jesus revealed Himself to be will determine our eternal state, whether in heaven or in hell forever. This is why it is so important! Read the Bible for yourself, what does God simply say?

Robin

David,

The Jesus of Christianity and the Jesus of Islam are two very distinct persons. Christians know and worship the Jesus of true history. The Jesus who really lived on this earth, who really died on a cross and rose from the dead. The Jesus whom scripture speaks of as the eternal Son of God, the Christ.

Does this describe the Jesus of Islam? Not at all! The Jesus that is described in Islam is a fictional Jesus. Someone who never existed in history or outside of this physical world. Though the Bible and also non-bliblical manuscripts from the 1st and 2nd Century tell us the Christian story of who Jesus was and even of His death and claimed resurrection, Islam still denies it because their Quran 7 Centuries later says so. Mythology has crept into the Jesus of Islam, the Jesus of Islam is not the one and only Son of God who became flesh and blood for the redemption of man. Do you claim to be a Christian and not see this?

he who denies the Son of God also denies the Father...

Robin

Islamicgirl,

Have you read my post that shows the Bible does teach Jesus is the Son of God? Did you not know this before and that is why you said I wasn't being truthful?

Robin

Hi rbaitz,

Look @ DavidC's Post:

rbaitz, all five pillars of Islam were demonstrated in the life of Jesus.

We may disagree about dogma, names, conceptualizations and history
but it seems clear to this Christian that Jesus works through Islam as well
as Christianity.

DavidC

My Input:  I agree with David C, Without Jesus (PBUH) Islam wouldn't be a complete religion  Because Jesus Peace Be Upon Him is one of our prophets... therefore, if we don't believe and accept all the prophets we are breaking our promise to God that we have to accept all the prophets.

That's all,

Peace!

rbaitz wrote: AhmadJoyia First thank you for participating in this discussion. You asked if this is a strange equation? As finite beings we don�t possess all knowledge. However God does because He is infinite. Therefore, we can only bow our knee to Him and what He has revealed to us. Even if this means we don�t always understand God�s purposes and revealed word in the Bible. Also as finite beings we should be humble in our questioning of God�s word because the question could be the problem versus the answer.

Again strange replies through conjectures. On one side you admit your (human) weakness of not understanding the infinite God and on the other hand you are bent upon to draw conclusions regarding God's father and son relation. Aren't you confused with your own self? What if I should also show you thousand other places where Jesus acted where only human could do that, but ofcourse, I don't want to get into that debate.

rbaitz wrote: To answer your second and third questions, yes it is important to recognize Jesus as the eternal Son of God. Why do I believe this? Because the Bible teaches it, read for yourself,....

Again, your answers here refute your earlier response. Now you are again seem to rely more on the conjectures based on unkown writers than on the undeniable fact and i.e. Jesus prayed to the God. He asked mercy from the God. It is in this very undeniable, and unrefutable fact found in these gospels that calls for muslims to recognise the Christians as the "people of the book". So, let us put aside the conjectures and totally be obeident to one and only one God, the God to whom Jesus also used to pray and ask forgiveness. This shall definitely make Jesus happy that you are following him and not conjectures. This shall in no way be contradicting your gospels neither it would be against the actions of Jesus and nor would it degrade your prayer but raise it to higher levels. Isn't it? Don't you agree that the proposed solution is a fair agreement between you and the God. Leaving conjectures aside and holding on to the facts. May God of Jesus bless us all. Amen.

AhmadJoyia

You said, "Jesus also used to pray and ask forgiveness"

In the Bible when did Jesus ask for forgiveness of himself? To ask forgiveness means you failed in some way or sinned in some way. I know he asked for forgiveness of those whom crucified him but I never read specifically Jesus ever asking for forgiveness. Can you point this out where in the Bible Jesus is asking this?

Next what I was saying about human being as finite beings and God as infinite was that though I may not understand the One God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I can apprehend this teaching from the Bible as I have already shown it teaches. However though I may not fully understand this, I bow my knee to the Bible, God's word, and accept what it says.

I may not fully understand how electricity is made but I know it truly exists. Also I may not fully comprehend or understand the Trinity of God, but I can apprehend this truth from God's word, the Bible.

Robin

rbaitz wrote: In the Bible when did Jesus ask for forgiveness of himself? To ask forgiveness means you failed in some way or sinned in some way.

Hello Robin,

I know your post is primarily for Brother Ahmad, but I want to interfere the discourse for only one point.

In Islam Prophets are considered sinless. So they do not need to seek forgiveness, however, the prophet of Islam, Muhammad (SAW) is reported to have been seeking forgiveness of Allah seventy times each day. He did not need it, he is the best of creation, and is the most beloved of Allah most high. Yet, his seeking forgiveness signifies his humility towards his creator.

The relationship of man and God is that of serventhood and Lordship, so the clause of humility remains between the two for all creations. That is the ettiquette infront of Allah.

Jesus (AS) was humble, and knew the perfect adab with Allah. He did not sin, but I doubt bible preaching he did not show his servanthood towards allah or that he did not need this (?)

Peace.

Nausheen

Nausheen

Can one demonstrate a humble attitude yet not ask for forgiveness? I would think so. One could even esteem a king or leader or in this case God, yet there is no need to ask forgiveness unless one has done wrong. But the point I want to make is that the Bible doesn't show Jesus ever asking for forgiveness for Himself because He was and is sinless. However Moses on the other hand, though was a man of God sinned against God as you can read in the book of Exodus. As a result of his sin God didn't allow him into the promised land. Another prophet was Jonah who sinned against God by not preaching to the Ninavites as God commanded him to. However God worked on him causing him to repent and eventually do what God first wanted him to. Prophets can sin because they were mere human beings.

Robin

rbaitz wrote: Nausheen  But the point I want to make is that the Bible doesn't show Jesus ever asking for forgiveness for Himself because He was and is sinless.

Okay, so this is what the Bible says. Thank you.

rbaitz wrote: However Moses on the other hand, though was a man of God sinned against God as you can read in the book of Exodus. As a result of his sin God didn't allow him into the promised land. Another prophet was Jonah who sinned against God by not preaching to the Ninavites as God commanded him to.

The Quran however says the Moses killed the man by mistake. And a mistake is not a sin.

Are you talking about Prophet Yunus? who was swolled by the fish. If yes, then again, he made a mistake by not delivering the message, that was not a sin. He realised, repented and then returned to his people to complete his mission. - that is how we know the stories from the Quran.

Peace.

Bissmillah,

The Bible contains both Old and New Testaments or a better word for it is Covenant. There was an old Covenant that God established with the people of Israel, which they completely failed, however, this old covenant was only temporal in that it was looking ahead to the New Covenant established by Jesus God's Son.

What was this new covenant performing or establishing? Why was this new covenant created in the first place?

The first covenant wasn't flawed, but mankind is flawed due to our sinfulness. As a result man failed to keep God's standards of goodness. For example, we have all lied at one time in our lives, ever stolen, ever looked with lust at someone else, ever hated someone unrighteously, ever coveted which is desiring things or people for yourself, ever said "oh God" when mad to express disgust, have you always at every moment of the day throughout your entire life always put God first, have you ever spoke about others gossip, or have you always loved your neighbor (someone next to you at any given moment)? These are just some of God's standards of goodness. However humanity has completely failed God's standards of goodness, therefore as a result we deserve hell, eternal separation from our Creator forever.

Since there is no way we can pay for our own sins, God established a New Covenant in which He has established righteousness for sinful humanity. God demonstrated His love toward us in that while we were still sinners Jesus died for us. The New Covenant was established by the Messiah, God's Son, by His death on a cross where He shed His own blood for the sins of the world. Now within this New Covenant both Jew and non-Jew (Gentiles) can all receive forgiveness for our sins. Repentance (which is a turning from our sins to God) and acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God who died for our sins and acceptance of Him as the leader of our life guarantees of forgiveness for sins, a relationship with God and we become children of God. Unless we repent and believe in the gospel we are still in our sins and under God's wrath.

Why the shedding on His blood?

You may have read in the Old Testament/Covenant that the Jewish Priest would sacrifice lambs as sin offerings or better a temporary covering that shadowed what was to come in the New Covenant. Covenants are always established in blood. God made a covenant with Abraham that he would be blessed, it was established through blood. Read about Moses, "So Moses took the blood and sprinkled {it} on the people, and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words." (Exodus 24:8). In the New Covenant Jesus was the perfect lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world. The Jewish priests offered sacrifices continually in the Old Covenant. But there was to come a perfect sacrifice that needed to be only once, establishing the New Covenant and ending the Old Covenant. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Robin

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" John 1:1

And the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us..." John 1:14

The Bible teaches Jesus is God. This is what Christians believe because this is what God's word reveals.

Robin

Actually I don't find it that Jesus is God.

We have the bible or the quran which is supposedly be God's words, so really when we speak them ourselves either verbally or actions, does it not that the word becomes flesh ? and are we then God?

Angel,

The "Word" on the gospel of John is unique and only applied to Jesus. "The Word is God" John 1:1c. Can you claim to be God? No! Only God can claim that, which Jesus is God, the eternal Son, as we read from the Bible and to which the disciples gave their own lives for, many in a torturous death.

Also John 3:16 "God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life". Again the uniqueness of the Son of God is different from a son of God who has been made a son of God or child of God by faith in Jesus the Savior of the world.

Robin

I don't believe that Jesus said he was "God"

If God beget a son and Jesus is God's son, then Jesus cannot simply be God 

Re-read your verse John 3:16.

God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son - How can Jesus be "God" then ?

God gave His son Jesus, not Himself!

Angel,

Your mixing up categories here. The Bible speaks of One true God. So One-- What. But the Bible also speaks of the eternal Persons of the Godhead; the Father being God, the Son being God, and the Holy Spirit being God. So three-- Who's. Therefore there is One God who exists eternally, and within this One God there exists three co-equal Persons. Now as a finite being I cannt fully comprehend this, however this can be apprehended from the Bible. Also as a finite being I bow my knee to the infinite God and His word believing Him.

This topic I started is, "Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is God?" It does as I have shown. Please goto page 2 of this topic and read what I posted. There I give examples from the Bible where it teaches the Father, Son and Holy SPirit are called God. Read for yourself so you can know what the Bible says for itself. Then you can deny the Bible or accept it for what it truly says.

Next, John 3:16 mentions God the Father and the Son (Jesus). The Father is called God here who has sent His unique Son to earth. Your question doesnt make sense to me because the Father is called God here, so?? this doesn't mean Jesus is not God also! It does however show the different Persons within the Godhead. Ask yourself this, "Who is Jesus since he pre-existed his own human birth from Mary?" Jesus himself said he pre-existed, even before father Abraham, look at John 8:58. Who can pre-exist before their human existance? None of us can claim this! The Bible tells us, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..."Genesis 1:1. However turn to John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God."  The Word is applied to Jesus, God the Son, the Word was in the beginning before creation even existed. John 1:3 tells us the Word created all things. Jesus being the Word is also the Creator of all things. Ask yourself, "Jesus is said to have created everything, how can he be just a man?"

Robin

Robin, in your post on page 2 you mention:

In conclusion we find the Bible does teach there is but One true God, not two or three or more. However this One true God is made up of Three distinct Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, co-equal and eternal, yet all are in unity within our understanding of One true God.

From what I have come to learn the Christian group the Trinitarians say this.

Also you say, all are in unity within our understanding of One true God, then shouldn't we understand but you say below as an finite being cannot understand this. You don't make sense here.

Do I understand this? No! However as a finite being not knowing everything,

Next, John 3:16 mentions God the Father and the Son (Jesus). The Father is called God here who has sent His unique Son to earth.

Your words here reveal that Jesus is not God but God's son. Being God's son doesn't make you God, The One true God, Creator.

From reading scripture, I do find it not saying that Jesus is God, there is a clear distinction, at least for me there is.

I have talked quite thoroughly on this, as your talk goes into the Trinity. If you go to the forum Interfaith and to the thread Trinity my talk is there from page 3 onwards.

Also you might like to go to this link about the trinity and the verses you bring across.

http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm - http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm   

Hi Robin

Hope you'll come back on this forum so that we may clarify some issues. In an earlier post you wrote:

"Does this describe the Jesus of Islam? Not at all! The Jesus that is described in Islam is a fictional Jesus. Someone who never existed in history or outside of this physical world. Though the Bible and also non-bliblical manuscripts from the 1st and 2nd Century tell us the Christian story of who Jesus was and even of His death and claimed resurrection, Islam still denies it because their Quran 7 Centuries later says so. Mythology has crept into the Jesus of Islam, the Jesus of Islam is not the one and only Son of God who became flesh and blood for the redemption of man. Do you claim to be a Christian and not see this?"

Do you know that if anything blasphemous is said or done against Jesus, it is the Muslims who are far more offended than the Christians? It is the Muslims who quite often react and condemn any disrespect to Jesus. Why would the Muslims feel so deeply offended if Jesus is a fictional character as you describe. This is certainly untrue. A complete chapter has been devoted to Mary in the Holy Quran. Jesus has been mentioned in the Quran a number of times and I could quote all the verses for you.

Unlike Christianity as it is practised today, Islam makes complete sense. You may dismiss it by saying that it came seven centuries later. But the only reason it came was because the true message that was brought to mankind by Jesus was distorted. In fact the name of Prophet Mohammed figures in the Bible. Now you find it difficult to explain the concept of trinity and simply say that you accept it because you believe it to be the word of God. The confusion you have about this "trinity" which you are unable to explain has been dispelled in the Quran and the truth has been explained very clearly. Please take the time to read atleast the chapter on Mary in the Quran and we may be able to discuss your claims "The Jesus that is described in Islam is a fictional Jesus. Someone who never existed in history or outside of this physical world."

You can read the Quran online either on the Islamicity website or you could go to http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/  where the translation of each verse from Arabic to English has been done by three different translators.

Do you know that if anything blasphemous is said or done against Jesus, it is the Muslims who are far more offended than the Christians?

Where do you get so much of your information? But i take it you have spoken to all the Christians that have made your judgement. May God have mercy on you.

There is no need to speak to all the Christians to make a judgement. When terrible pictures of Jesus are made such as "piss ..." I don't see the Christians who are greater in number than the Muslims come out and openly condemn and take action against the perpetrators. No doubt some practising Christians & churches voice there concerns but the condemnation is not proportionate to the population and is pretty muted. The Muslims on the other hand are outraged because we respect all the messengers equally but find ourselves helpless when the Christian (who follow Jesus) response is too weak.

However, the point I am making is that Jesus is not a fictional figure in the Quran as Robin has indicated. Cypriot Boy If you wish to respond to this specifically you may.

rbaitz wrote: AhmadJoyia You said, "Jesus also used to pray and ask forgiveness" In the Bible when did Jesus ask for forgiveness of himself? To ask forgiveness means you failed in some way or sinned in some way. I know he asked for forgiveness of those whom crucified him but I never read specifically Jesus ever asking for forgiveness. Can you point this out where in the Bible Jesus is asking this? Next what I was saying about human being as finite beings and God as infinite was that though I may not understand the One God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I can apprehend this teaching from the Bible as I have already shown it teaches. However though I may not fully understand this, I bow my knee to the Bible, God's word, and accept what it says. I may not fully understand how electricity is made but I know it truly exists. Also I may not fully comprehend or understand the Trinity of God, but I can apprehend this truth from God's word, the Bible. Robin

I am sorry, I am late in responding to this thread as I think somehow I didn't recieve any notification about its update or I simply missed it in my other emails. Anyhow, coming back to the issue of Jesus asking forgiveness etc. So my brother Robin, do you think, the person named Jesus in NT was actually God? Then should I remind my brother what all he did where only human (exclusively) can do and one of that is to err.

Yes, my brother, Jesus did err. He rebuked the lady (by equating her to dogs) who came for his blessings. Other than that, there are numerous other occassions exclusively for humans. Of course you must have double the number of faith based logics to disagree, but all I conclude from this is that they are all based on human conjectures. We don't have any reliable and authentic record of Jesus teachings. All we have in the form of NT is a collection of four anonymous gospels and dozens of epistles by St. Paul and his followers. All your famous quotes to initiate the very debate are based on unauthentic gospels. Yes, unauthentic because their authors are anonymous. At least now you would realize that putting faith on these anonymous books can easily misguide their readers, especially, all they have with them are the christology according to St. Paul. St. Paul, never ever met Jesus in his whole life so from where the authenticity for his literature comes in? only God knows.  

Okay, here goes.  I'm going to add a facet to this thread based on my own church.  I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  We do not believe in a Trinity as Robin has described or the original sin that many born agains claims needs washed with baptism, though we do believe Jesus was the Son of God and the Messiah.  Although, we teach a pre-mortal existence.  I have never been able to understand the Trinity as other Christian Churches teach the Trinity.  Ultimately, that is what caused the Great Schism between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church in 1054.  Our Church separates God, the Son and the Holy Spirit into three distinct entities.  They are only One in purpose, not in being.  The Son offered to come to earth and do Gods will on earth and thus God was Supreme and Jesus was doing the will of the Father.  The Holy Spirit gave up his chance to come to Earth and receive a body in order to do God's work as the Voice of God.  Jesus does not claim to be a God in the New Testament, only the Son of God, the word made flesh, he is there doing the bidding of God. 

Now, having said that, discussing the Nature of Jesus and the Atonement on an Islamic website is a futile thing.  In order to understand any of the foundations of Christianity, you have to understand WHY Jesus was sent and died. To understand the New Testament you must at least accept the theory that Jesus was the Son of God, conceived by Mary the Virgin and that he was sent to save all mankind from death.  If you cannot grasp that concept, none of the rest of it will make sense.  Since he was a prophet, teacher and example to Muslims, what we Christians believe about him is moot.  I believe in Prophets still living, that is a foreign concept to Muslims as I have seen in another forum.  When I opened this thread I thought it was a Muslim asking a question of Christians, but when I saw that Robin is Christian, I suddenly became confused what this thread was doing here.  I don't necessarily subscribe to what Islamicgirl said about it having no place here, but its a touchy subject because its the major difference in alot of contentions even among Christian Denominations.  The Nature of the Godhead and Jesus are best left to a Christian website.  In the end, to a muslim, Jesus (Isa) was a great prophet, who did not die but was spared by a loving and merciful god.  There will never be a different determination on this website. 

I do have an off topic quickie question though?  What does the Quran say about the Virgin Birth of Jesus?    Since I'm more curious as to what Islam says about Isa's life and death.

Sis Angela

Here are few verses of Quran pertaining to the ministry of Jesus especially about the virgin birth of Jesus. Kindly note that named YUSUFALI in bold at the begining of each verse is the name of the translator and signify nothing else.

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YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;

003.046
YUSUFALI: "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

003.047
YUSUFALI: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
003.048
YUSUFALI: "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
 003.049
YUSUFALI: "And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
003.050
YUSUFALI: "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
 003.051
YUSUFALI: "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
003.052
YUSUFALI: When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
 003.053
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."
 003.054
YUSUFALI: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
003.055
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
003.056
YUSUFALI: "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
003.057
YUSUFALI: "As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."
 003.058
YUSUFALI: "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."
003.059
YUSUFALI: The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
 003.060
YUSUFALI: The Truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.

AhmadJoyia,

I want to thank you so much for your reply.  I enjoyed reading the passages you posted here and now I cannot wait until my copy of the Quran comes in the mail from C.A.I.R.  I am looking forward to reading your Holy Book.  It is wonderful to see that even if the nature of Jesus is different, the messages are still there.  In both of our faiths, Jesus' greatest example is his obedience to God. 

Matthew 26:39  And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Angela

Angela wrote: AhmadJoyia, I want to thank you so much for your reply.  I enjoyed reading the passages you posted here and now I cannot wait until my copy of the Quran comes in the mail from C.A.I.R.  I am looking forward to reading your Holy Book.  It is wonderful to see that even if the nature of Jesus is different, the messages are still there.  In both of our faiths, Jesus' greatest example is his obedience to God.  Matthew 26:39  And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Angela

My sis Angela,

All thanks belong to Allah and Allah alone who has bestowed His mercy by sending rightous Prophets to guide us to the right direction.

Yes, it is indeed a common point of unification between Muslims and Christians when we realize that after all we all have the same God, the God to whom Prophet Jesus also used to pray. May our God give us wisdom to find the true path. Amin.

Note. There are certain online English translations of Quran and if you are interested, I shall post their address for you. 

Sis Angela, the following website link not only provides English translation of Quran by three different translators but also provide some powerfull english translational search tool as well. Hopefully this shall suffice all your needs.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

BTW, may I know your website as the one mentioned in your signature block is still not active yet? Am I correct?

Its "active" but right now I'm the only "member".  I have not sent out invitations because I'm hoping to build in links like the one you've given me, also build some pages for the site.  Right now, its just a bare group with a forum and a chatroom.  I'm hoping to set up my home computer in the next week or two and start making the pages.  Currently I'm restricted by what I can do from my work computer.  But, thank you for the link.  It will help tremendously.  If you'd like to join, just go to to the link in my signature and sign up.  Or PM me with your email address and I'll send you and invite.  I could always use help with the planned Islamic side of the site.  I'll be able to handle the Christian side without too much problem.

Angela