In its long list of 'Israeli condemnations' the UN in a 39-2 vote, with 12 abstentions, passed its latest resolution on Thursday demanding that Israel should prevent any new installation of settlers in the occupied territories.

The two votes against the resolution, naturally, came from Australia and the United States - two of the three major Islamicphobic governments.

The resolution, titled Israeli Settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, also applied to traditionally Arab parts of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, which Israel captured from Syria in the 1967 Middle East war.

But, if the past experience has any indication - This new 'resolution' too will become food for Israel's 'UN garbage basket'.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A3BB1562-B452-41D3-B308-C2B4192361F4.htm - http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A3BB1562-B452-41D3-B3 08-C2B4192361F4.htm

To call Australia and the US Islamophobic is to honour these habitual bloodthirsty crooks.

The day we realise that this Axis of English speaking cousins (Britain, Australia & US) are the dirtiest crooks on earth and deal with them and their wares in that spirit - our troubles will be over.

Are you ready to boycott them in toto? instead of just posting such articles.

Oh yes, Australia is such a bunch of crooks. We allow all sorts of people to live here peacefully - even Muslims!

We force our citizens to vote in order to make sure that everyone has a voice in running the country - how silly of us! We should just become a dictatorship!

You Muslims value tribal alliances - well so do we in a way. the USA saved us in World War 2 from the Japanese. We honour this defence by following them into all sorts of stupid wars like Vietnam and Iraq. I'm not defending our actions, that's just how it is. We protested against both wars, but in the end we follow the USA into battle then try to act in as fair a way as possible with the invaded locals - with health care and re-building communities and such.

Our military is nowhere near big enough to make much of a difference in battle in most places - our military's job is mostly peace-keeping duties. Does that make us SO evil?

Kim...

Oh yes, Australia is such a bunch of crooks. We allow all sorts of people to live here peacefully - even Muslims!

West doesn't helps anyone, unless it serves  its own interest. No one  goes to the West to beg. Westerners allow Muslims live in their land because they provide cheap labour. Indians living in the West have generated great wealth for the Westerners, still Westerners consider the coloured people animals. Here in India, I see many Indians applying to work in the West, but only the exceptionally qualified are chosen. Westerners, in general, discriminate on the basis of race/skin color. The Native people in America and Australia live in slums of big cities miserably in their own country. While the Westerners and their children gorge on their resources like pigs. Americans and Australians are shameless scoundrels. They live on land which they stole from others. They are supreme hypocrites to say that they help others while they only "help" when they want to rob of them of their resources. They are really scums on Earth and most of the problems in the world is the result of their mischeif.

ZamanH wrote: Oh yes, Australia is such a bunch of crooks. We allow all sorts of people to live here peacefully - even Muslims! West doesn't helps anyone, unless it serves  its own interest. No one  goes to the West to beg. Westerners allow Muslims live in their land because they provide cheap labour.

Oh YES, that's SO TRUE! We have union and labor laws and minimum wages and all that sort of rubbish so that people can come here and be cheap labour. Oh YES, you are SO right and you obviously know SO MUCH about Australia.

You should come here and check out all our racist labour laws and our Philipino maids and our Black Boys waiting at hotel doors, etc, etc.

Idiot - our cheap labour is OVERSEAS. You know - China and places like that where companies make people work 27 hours a day for thrupence a fortnight. Why not complain about THOSE sorts of countries so that countries like MINE can't take advantage of them any more?

No? Too hard? Then shut up.

Kim...

And just to prove my point - if all you can provide is cheap labour, then we generally make it HARDER for you to get into Australia. We prefer to let in people with specialised skills, like engineers.

Kim...

ZamanH wrote: Oh yes, Australia is such a bunch of crooks. We allow all sorts of people to live here peacefully - even Muslims! West doesn't helps anyone, unless it serves  its own interest. No one  goes to the West to beg. Westerners allow Muslims live in their land because they provide cheap labour. Indians living in the West have generated great wealth for the Westerners, still Westerners consider the coloured people animals. Here in India, I see many Indians applying to work in the West, but only the exceptionally qualified are chosen.

Yeah - and? We are only a very small country in terms of population and in terms of actually being able to support people by supplying food and water and the like. We are 2/3 desert. How many people do you think we should just let in willy-nilly? Say we _did_ let in millions of people whose qualifications were mostly useless here- we would have to bring in MORE food from overseas and probably build de-salination plants to supply water. So how much MORE expensive would life become here and how much would we have to exploit people to get money from them to PAY for these services.

Westerners, in general, discriminate on the basis of race/skin color.

You just said we discriminate by qualifications.

Like the countries full of gypsies in Europe, a place with as small a population as AUstralia can NOT afford to take in too many people.

Besides - Australia is losing jobs (mostly IT and communications) to INDIA because your labor costs are so low and your population so huge. Maybe you should look at the pay inequalities in your own country, instead of bagging us for _apparently_ hiring (or not hiring, make up your mind, would you?) loads of poor little brown people.

The Native people in America and Australia live in slums of big cities miserably in their own country. While the Westerners and their children gorge on their resources like pigs. Americans and Australians are shameless scoundrels. They live on land which they stole from others. They are supreme hypocrites to say that they help others while they only "help" when they want to rob of them of their resources. They are really scums on Earth and most of the problems in the world is the result of their mischeif.

Oh yes? And where would _I_ live if I were to remove myself from this stolen land? My family has been here since 1791. YOU seem to have forgotten that many people were FORCED to come here.

And you've probably also forgotten that tens of thousands of people escaped to Australia to avoid all the crap that Europe did to itself during the wars? My fault? Heaven forbid we should try to help people live better lives.

YES - dreadful things were done to our natives, but none of it had anything to do with me or my family, but that doesn't stop people like me trying to do something about it.

Kim... 

Oh, by the way - if any of my above ranting sound racist - they are meant to.

If someone accuses me (by implication) of racism and that sort of thing, I will react in a racist manner in order to show how ridiculous their argument was.

Kim...

We force our citizens to vote in order to make sure that everyone has a voice in running the country - how silly of us! We should just become a dictatorship!

Your hypocirsy is self-evidant. Muslims/immigrants make a very small minority in the West. And Democracy is the ultimate nemesis for all those who are in minority. Voting rights for the immigrants don't mean anything in the West.

You just said we discriminate by qualifications.

You pretend to be selflessly helping the immigrants by integrating them to your society. While, actually you do it only for your own interests (just as the U.S govt. always demands others to be grateful to it, though, it only acts in its own self-interest). They owe to you just as much you owe to them. I don't mind if you discriminate on the basis of qualifications ( I agree, that is natural), but I dislike your hypocrisy to be pretending to be serving others charitably, while, you help only those who can benefit you.

Oh YES, you are SO right and you obviously know SO MUCH about Australia.

I was taliking about the West in general, you dumbo. I was referring to the Muslim immigrants in Europe who went there to do work (around 4 or 5 decades back) very few Europeans were willing to do because of lower wages.

And you've probably also forgotten that tens of thousands of people escaped to Australia to avoid all the crap that Europe did to itself during the wars?

That created labour shortage in Europe and people from other parts of the world went to fill in the shortage. Europeans did not "helped" them out of charity.

You call australia evil and then tell me I'm a dumbo for reacting?

I know who has the bigger ears and nose here and it ain't me.

I'd rather live here than anywhere else in the world. And so what if Muslims are a minority here? If they want people to understand them and know them, let them do what the rest of us have to do if we want people to know and understand our ideas - get out there and tell people! Educate them! I'm a minority of 1, but that doesn't mean I feel entirely powerless - if I want people to know about my ideas, about my ideals, about things that are important to me and maybe to others, then I can get out there and tell people! I can run for government (local or otherwise), I can offer to speak in schools, I can put up posters, I can write to people, go on radio, television, etc, etc.

I do NOT buy into the argument that minority groups are just helpless people with no voice. That is NOT true here. It may be true where you come from, but who's fault is that?

Kim... 

You call australia evil and then tell me I'm a dumbo for reacting?

I called entire West evil and hypocritical.  About the cheap labour, I was referring to Europe and about high qualifications I was referring to immigration of the Muslim to the West that started around the late 70's.

I assemble/sell computers to my customers. Once they pay me, they don't owe me anything, neither do I to them. It will be hypocritical of me to demand them to be grateful to me because I sold them computers. Similarly, Muslim immigrants to the WEst don't owe you anything. They live on what they earn.

Dear Kim and ZamanH

I browsed your hot discussion. I think you have more common values and concerns than the differences. You are highligting the differences because of where you happen to be born and live.

There are many peace-loving good people in the Western world, including the USA, Australia, Israel, Palestine, Pakistan, etc. Instead of treating each other with stereotypes and nationalistic or tribal prejudice we should reach each other and try to find our common values.

Peace,
Edip

http://www.yuksel.org/ - www.yuksel.org

http://www.19.org/ - www.19.org

Hi Kim,

Please do not take everything Irshad Manji says as truth.  The women is greatly mixed up.  Her sole purpose is to discredit Islam (and make a few quick bucks while she is at it!).  See the Irshad Manji thread in General Discussions for more.

Peace, ummziba.

Apparently this sort of treatment was common and widespread?

Apparently?? Many things don't turn out to be what they appeared at first.

Muslims seldom dicriminated on the basis of race. Muslims prospered in different parts of the world and gave equal status to those who converted to Islam. Moors who ruled Spain for 700 years were Black,  Turks were White, Arabs were Semites and the Mughals who ruled India for 200 years were Mongols. Muslims brought prosperity to the lands they conquered.

Japan was the only country in East Asia that escaped colonization by the West and it became as prosperous and technologically advanced as it. While, even countries like India and China, which were rich in natural resources were greatly impoverished under the Western rule.

So please do NOT tell me that no Muslims anywhere, in RECENT history, even, have not treated other badly or literally colonised other areas.

I didn't ever said that. My point was they were exceptions.

_Surely_ the Muslims, having been cheap labour themselves, but having been given "class mobility" by the British, could have done the same for the local black African population?

Indians in general were thrown out of AFrica and so were the Indian Muslims along along with them. And if you had done your research properly, Idi Amin was a foolish despot. He threw out the Indians simply because Britain refused to sell him weapons. And he suspected them to be British agents. Ugandan ecomomy soon collapsed as the administration was run by the Indians.

I never said Idi amin was a nice bloke - we all know he was insane, but even insane people can do things for a reason.

Kim... 

Idi Amin also said "I think Hitler did the right thing by killing 6 million jews"!!!

Can't help wondering if insane people defend each other, also.

Dear ZamanH:

Only Satan would appoint grossly miseducated people like you to be the judges and executioners of the world.

Evil people -- who happen to be Muslim political leaders of one sort or another -- have grossly miseducated you about history to prepare you to commit horrendous acts of violence against us English-speaking people.

Examples:

Did you know that the Japanese, convinced of their racial superiority to the world, were killing Asian civilans at gunpoint by the millions during the 1930s? (See The Rape of Nanking for the example of what the Japanese did to just one Chinese city.) Did you know that the U.S. tried to stop the Japanese with sanctions? That the Japanese response to the sanctions was to bomb Pearl Harbor? By the way, they did so without a declaration of war, which put it among the most infamous and dishonorable acts of treachery in history -- until 9/11/2001, which date is in a class by itself as the most cowardly and unholy and loathsome and ignoble act of treachery in history.

Did you know that America signed on as a guarantor of the U.N. terms by which the French freed their colony of Vietnam, which included a seperation between the communist north and democratic south? That the north invaded the sourth, forcing the U.S. to honor its commitment and intervene?

ZamanH wrote: West doesn't helps anyone, unless it serves  its own interest. No one  goes to the West to beg. Westerners allow Muslims live in their land because they provide cheap labour.

Who fills your head with this FALSE, FALSE, FALSE TRASH!!! You either know nothing of the West but the lies you have been told or you lie.

ZamanH wrote: Indians living in the West have generated great wealth for the Westerners, still Westerners consider the coloured people animals.

More lies. Who tells you this stuff? Why? They are the real monsters. Or perhaps you are the monster for repeating it without possibly having any verification of it.

ZamanH wrote: Here in India, I see many Indians applying to work in the West, but only the exceptionally qualified are chosen. Westerners, in general, discriminate on the basis of race/skin color.

Liar.

ZamanH wrote: The Native people in America and Australia live in slums of big cities miserably in their own country. While the Westerners and their children gorge on their resources like pigs. Americans and Australians are shameless scoundrels. They live on land which they stole from others. They are supreme hypocrites to say that they help others while they only "help" when they want to rob of them of their resources. They are really scums on Earth and most of the problems in the world is the result of their mischeif.

No, the problems all come from Arabs, who brought the African slave trade to Christian countries and invaded and took vast stretches of Christian lands centuries before the "Crusades" you always carp about.

There, how does THAT feel? How productive is THAT? The only difference between what you said and what I said is that what I said is ACTUALLY TRUE!!!!!

Kim, we all love you and your very Celtic attitude towards justice. Iraq has played to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Used to love Aussies. Have loads of friends there. Was in partnership with your Austrade Commission. Loved meeting John Hawk in 1992 - he is not as tall he looks!

But since Iraq and 'oward's show at the White Wash House I have come to take the Brits, the Amreekis and the Aussies as just a third rate bunch of crooks, liars and cowardly murderers. They are war criminals - but we stand grateful to them for showing us their real faces.

Poor old Astrophysicist reminds me of someone who was already muddying this site from some dirty "Pond" up until a few weeks ago with his Half-Truths.

BUT we should keep quiet. Say nothing mates. Why should we worry if the Americans wish to dwell on fantasy and half-truths?

How their media kept the Downing Street Memo down. Right now the US is war criminal. It was also a War Criminal when it started the 1898 Spanish War. All else you say is merely debateable.

Plus the "English Speaking Cousins Axis" is a racist circle. They have stood out to be thugs, third rate crooks, liar and murderers. They would destroy lives of millions of people for just a can of oil.

Astrophysicist wrote: Dear ZamanH:

You are such a lousy hypocrite.

Astrophysicist wrote: Did you know that the Japanese, convinced of their racial superiority to the world, were killing Asian civilans at gunpoint by the millions during the 1930s? (See The Rape of Nanking for the example of what the Japanese did to just one Chinese city.) Did you know that the U.S. tried to stop the Japanese with sanctions?

The U.N sanctions on Iraq were cheifly U.S sponsored. That http://zmag.org/Zmag/Articles/nov01lindemyer.htm - impoverished once prosperous country , and it killed, at least half a million children and then U.S Secretary of State, Madeline Albright said http://www.zpub.com/un/usfp.html - "The price is worth it".

Did you know that America signed on as a guarantor of the U.N. terms by which the French freed their colony of Vietnam, which included a seperation between the communist north and democratic south? That the north invaded the sourth, forcing the U.S. to honor its commitment and intervene?

That was a pretext. U.S does not honour various commitments to the U.N, Kyoto protocol, W.T.O etc., anyway.

No, the problems all come from Arabs, who brought the African slave trade to Christian countries and invaded and took vast stretches of Christian lands centuries before the "Crusades" you always carp about.

There is a difference, Muslims brought prosperity to the lands they conquered. They gave equal status to those who converted to Islam. Westerners impoverished whichever country they colonised.

9/11/2001, which date is in a class by itself as the most cowardly and unholy and loathsome and ignoble act of treachery in history.

NO, THE HIJACKERS WERE NOT COWARDS. They gave away their lives fighting for the weak and poor people of the world. You were greedy and stupid to give them the training. They slapped you right on your face, by their shoes, in full view of millions of T.V viewers. Through their death they proved that glory is not the luxury of the rich and powerful, it belongs only to those who can dare to have it. Posterity will see them as heroes who fought for the oppressed against arrogant tyrants. Although they were wrong, Muslims should not be ashamed of them, because they fought for them against the abominable tyrants, who are absolutely scums on Earth, the likes of which world hasn't hitherto seen.

Oh yes, a bunch of tyrants sitting evilly in their buildings trying to earn money to feed their kids.

You are SO right! People living ordinary lives are SCUM!

What a shame the towers weren't built in some other poorer country run by ignorance, corruption, bribes and baksheesh - they could have fallen down all on their own. They wouldn't have NEEDED to fly those planes into them at all...

Kim...

It says in the Qur'an that in times of war you should not hurt the old, children or people who labor............Let me see, flying 2 planes into 2 towers that had elderly, workers, and children. It was cowardly. There were military bases, what about these? Why destroy and kill as many innocent people as you can from countries all over the world.

It was Cowardly.

Lameese

Salam to all,

The people who crashed the planes into the twin towers on 9/11 are certainly terrorists by anyones definition. Imagine you are waiting in the lobby of the twin towers in New York (which was an office, not a military building) and someone walks in, shots the person next to you and walks out. What would you say about him? Would you defend him?

So anyone would say that this is murder, however, if someone kills everyone in the building somehow they are "defending the rights of the poor and oppressed (astafirAllah)" Many Muslims were killed in that disaster, and most of them were illegal immigrants from India and Pakistan living in the slums and barely surviving. So I guess they were killed so that they could be defended. Does that make sense?

In Shariah, if a person is trying to kill you, then you have the right to kill him in self defense. This is what war in Islam is for, defense of the person or Islam only. Killing of innocent civilians is never justified (that is the logic of the oppressors, i.e., collateral damage).

May Allah (s.w.a.) destroy those who value human life so cheaply, and who are (even today) busy killing innocent Muslims in Iraq.

Lameese wrote: t says in the Qur'an that in times of war you should not hurt the old, children or people who labor

Lameese wrote: There were military bases, what about these? Why destroy and kill as many innocent people as you can from countries all over the world.

Lameese wrote: It was Cowardly. Lameese

No, it wasn't.

Bismillah

Brother ZamanH, your logic in dealing with terrosits attacks and motives behind them is understood but it is very worrying.

Please recall the tortures endured by Bilaal (May Allah be pleased with him), the injustice and insult with which the early companions of the Messenger (peace be upon him) were treated... there are no records of retailiation suicide bombings recorded or terrorist acts preformed, ordered or approved by the Prophet Muhammad (salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam).

However, we read of much patience, much supplication and much hope in Allah's justice and success from Him, which He eventually granted to those who patiently persevered.