Yesterday night I had very hot talk with one friend of mine about shias, he insisting that shias are no so longer Muslim. I told him that we should not declare the Shias as disbeliever because they are believe on oneness of Allah's, they believe on all of Prophets, they believe on all Books of Allah, they believe on Angels & recursion of last day. They also believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is the last prophet & Holy Qurain is the word of Allah Almighty, So how we can say that these are less or disbeliever.

He was giving the many arguments in favor of his stand but some of his arguments is put me in difficult position to counter. He was saying that shias are believe that Qurain consist on forty parts 10 parts were eaten by goats at the time of Hazart Osman, so it means they are not believing the present Qurain is complete which is consisting 30 parts. So in this way they are ignoring the Allah promise that I am the one who is revealing this & I will be a guardian of this. This friend was telling me that they also amend the Kalama (Taueed).

What is the my point here if Shias are the so big contradictions then why not Muslim Scholars unanimously decide about them as they did about Ahamdias.

May some one clarify truth. I expect the litteral input from all of you.

Many scholars refer to shia's as a deviated people. Some have called them non-muslims too. Precisely for the above reasons and the do some other stuff like pray differently with a piece of clay from karbala on the prayer mat.

This goes back to the time when they wanted Ali RA to become the Caliph and this was turned down.

In general Shia's also badmouth the rightly guided caliphs.allah protect everyone.

-Najamsahar

Shia people on the other hand are an extremely united community.

They also have the complete respect for the people in authority. See the ayatollah regimes, these were based mainly on faith the people had in the ayatollah, unlike some regimes in the sunni world like saddam hussien that were based on fear and intimidation.

mohammad wrote: Yesterday night I had very hot talk with one friend of mine about shias, he insisting that shias are no so longer Muslim. I told him that we should not declare the Shias as disbeliever because they are believe on oneness of Allah's, they believe on all of Prophets, they believe on all Books of Allah, they believe on Angels & recursion of last day. They also believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is the last prophet & Holy Qurain is the word of Allah Almighty, So how we can say that these are less or disbeliever. He was giving the many arguments in favor of his stand but some of his arguments is put me in difficult position to counter. He was saying that shias are believe that Qurain consist on forty parts 10 parts were eaten by goats at the time of Hazart Osman, so it means they are not believing the present Qurain is complete which is consisting 30 parts. So in this way they are ignoring the Allah promise that I am the one who is revealing this & I will be a guardian of this. This friend was telling me that they also amend the Kalama (Taueed). What is the my point here if Shias are the so big contradictions then why not Muslim Scholars unanimously decide about them as they did about Ahamdias. May some one clarify truth. I expect the litteral input from all of you.

Assalam Aleikum.

I am not an expert about the Shi'ite path or experience. But I will say that I know numerous Shi'ites who mix with Sunnis at a local moque and they believe the Quran is complete and there is no mistake.

Some pray with the clay tablet as a way of allowing the forehead to touch the earth, rather than, what could be a dirty floor.

Allahu a'lim 

Assalam Aleikum.

I am not an expert about the Shi'ite path or experience. But I will say that I know numerous Shi'ites who mix with Sunnis at a local moque and they believe the Quran is complete and there is no mistake.

Some pray with the clay tablet as a way of allowing the forehead to touch the earth, rather than, what could be a dirty floor.

Allahu a'lim ------------------------------------------------- ------

Andalus: You are telling me something i did not know. From what I know, even in the masjid alHaram, they leave right before the congregational prayer.

Also I know a family who is Shia and they do not pray behind a Sunni Imam.

Also the clay tablet to many shias signifies the earth of karbala. If one has a prayer mat, why keep a piece of clay over it?

-Najamsahar

ak_m_f wrote: bmzsp wrote: Shias read and recite exactly the same Qur'aan that all Muslims have, regardless of how many chapters "the goats" chewed. can goat eat paper?

BaaaaH!  Sheep Dip? Is there a website called http://www.askagoat.com - www.askagoat.com ? If you click on that link I'll laugh!

Assalam Aleikum!

najamsahar wrote: Assalam Aleikum. I am not an expert about the Shi'ite path or experience. But I will say that I know numerous Shi'ites who mix with Sunnis at a local moque and they believe the Quran is complete and there is no mistake. Some pray with the clay tablet as a way of allowing the forehead to touch the earth, rather than, what could be a dirty floor. Allahu a'lim ------------------------------------------------- ------ Andalus: You are telling me something i did not know. From what I know, even in the masjid alHaram, they leave right before the congregational prayer.

Of course I did not give an official Shi'ite written statement of official beliefs. There are places where Sunnis and Shi'ites have serious odds, and they prefer to pray behind their own Imam. I know that here in the US, I have been to places where Shi'ites and Sunnis pray mixed in congregation, and there is no problem. I have also been in group dhikr where we were mixed. 

najamsahar wrote:    Also I know a family who is Shia and they do not pray behind a Sunni Imam.

As I said, I cannot speak for every Shia. I can only speak about my experiences which has lead me to see that I cannot generalize all of them, although I do consider them to be in great error. And they think the same of me.

najamsahar wrote: Also the clay tablet to many shias signifies the earth of karbala. If one has a prayer mat, why keep a piece of clay over it? -Najamsahar

That someone might have a greater value for the clay because of the place the clay comes from does not take away from the belief that many Shia feel there is some connection between the clay of the earth and the Muslim.

Thats what I understand.

Allahu a'lim

Andalus:

Wsalaam

You are speaking about the exceptions,these people who mix and pray with Sunnis.

For a person to be Shia, he/she follows a set of beliefs that are in many ways contrary to the Sunni belief. I am speaking about Shias in general, what they believe and practise in. And what makes them a shia.

When you say that you meet and mix with people who are Shia, do you also know that in the US, (I know only about Virginia and New York), Shias have their own mosques, they even have their own community centres where the kids go to their own sunday schools.

However, I do understand the kind of people you must know. I also know some Shias who, through the internet and other sources, have read up a lot about Islam and they realise that the religion they follow has serious flaws.

Many of the generations before them really believed that the goats or something else ate up the Quran pages and that the revelation was in fact meant for Hazrat Ali RA and that grave injustices have been done to the family of Fatima RA at the hand of the rightly guided Caliphs.

Now the the opne minded and educated people of the present generations (who heard all these goat stories while growing up) especially in the US, have changed their ways of thinking and some have embraced Sunnism as the right path, alhamdulillah. Again, these are exceptions!

Some more of these, know that they are wrong but then do not make a declaration of being Sunni because of family/community pressures.

The brother who started this discussion meant to ask about the Shia faith and shi'ite people, not exceptions.

-Najamsahar

mohammad wrote: Yesterday night I had very hot talk with one friend of mine about shias, he insisting that shias are no so longer Muslim. I told him that we should not declare the Shias as disbeliever because they are believe on oneness of Allah's, they believe on all of Prophets, they believe on all Books of Allah, they believe on Angels & recursion of last day. They also believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is the last prophet & Holy Qurain is the word of Allah Almighty, So how we can say that these are less or disbeliever. He was giving the many arguments in favor of his stand but some of his arguments is put me in difficult position to counter. He was saying that shias are believe that Qurain consist on forty parts 10 parts were eaten by goats at the time of Hazart Osman, so it means they are not believing the present Qurain is complete which is consisting 30 parts. So in this way they are ignoring the Allah promise that I am the one who is revealing this & I will be a guardian of this. This friend was telling me that they also amend the Kalama (Taueed). What is the my point here if Shias are the so big contradictions then why not Muslim Scholars unanimously decide about them as they did about Ahamdias. May some one clarify truth. I expect the litteral input from all of you.

Mohammad, the same arguments take place in the Shia sect as well about Sunnis. So, don't worry.

mohammad wrote: Yesterday night I had very hot talk with one friend of mine about shias, he insisting that shias are no so longer Muslim. I told him that we should not declare the Shias as disbeliever because they are believe on oneness of Allah's, they believe on all of Prophets, they believe on all Books of Allah, they believe on Angels & recursion of last day. They also believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is the last prophet & Holy Qurain is the word of Allah Almighty, So how we can say that these are less or disbeliever. He was giving the many arguments in favor of his stand but some of his arguments is put me in difficult position to counter. He was saying that shias are believe that Qurain consist on forty parts 10 parts were eaten by goats at the time of Hazart Osman, so it means they are not believing the present Qurain is complete which is consisting 30 parts. So in this way they are ignoring the Allah promise that I am the one who is revealing this & I will be a guardian of this. This friend was telling me that they also amend the Kalama (Taueed). What is the my point here if Shias are the so big contradictions then why not Muslim Scholars unanimously decide about them as they did about Ahamdias. May some one clarify truth. I expect the litteral input from all of you.

Bismillah,

I love Shias and Christians and Jews and Buddhists.  I believe that Allah, SWT, will decide who will go to heaven and not; but then again I believe heartily in the Quran's promise of Allah's Mercy and the Qudsi hadith which says that when Allah created this earth he promised that His Mercy is greater than His wrath.

Of course no one will agree with me.  There's no need to tear apart what I said.  I know that you don't agree. 

Anyway, pointedly, you asked what the scholars should do, and it's lovely when they issue statements saying  "we're all human and need to be respectful of each other's lives and property on this earth".  If they issue other statements saying that Shias aren't Muslim, I will disregard it.

Some dear friends who have encouraged my faith are Shia and we have something in common:  We believe in Allah, SWT, and we love Prophet Muhammad, pbuh.  If they have more regard for Ali, as the Christians have more regard for Jesus, that doesn't bother me.

Salaamu Alaykum

najamsahar wrote: Andalus: Wsalaam You are speaking about the exceptions,these people who mix and pray with Sunnis.

No, unless you include Muslims in the US as an exception. I think that would be somewhat incorrect to assume.

Before the US and British intelligence began dressing up as Arabs and instigating fitnah between Shia and Sunni, there were many examples of Shia and Sunni sharing neighborhoods and marriage in Iraq.

Not to say that there was no friction at all, but there was and is mixing.

I know that, in general, Shias do not believe that the Quran is in error.

As far as those who do not mix in their own mosques, I know of examples where Arabs do not like to mix with the Pakistanis and they form there own mosques. This does not imply that all Arabs and Pakistanis are at odds. In my city, there is also a Shia mosque, none the less, Shias still mix with Sunnis.

najamsahar wrote: For a person to be Shia, he/she follows a set of beliefs that are in many ways contrary to the Sunni belief. I am speaking about Shias in general, what they believe and practise in. And what makes them a shia.

I agree. Their aqida is different and their theolgical ideas are different than sunnis. I never made any remarks about either of these items.

najamsahar wrote: When you say that you meet and mix with people who are Shia, do you also know that in the US, (I know only about Virginia and New York), Shias have their own mosques, they even have their own community centres where the kids go to their own sunday schools.

Yes I am aware. But Shias still do frequent the Sunni mosques.

najamsahar wrote: However, I do understand the kind of people you must know. I also know some Shias who, through the internet and other sources, have read up a lot about Islam and they realise that the religion they follow has serious flaws.

I know of one at a mosque where I go. The others have the mainstream ideas and beliefs which Shia hold.

najamsahar wrote:   Many of the generations before them really believed that the goats or something else ate up the Quran pages and that the revelation was in fact meant for Hazrat Ali RA and that grave injustices have been done to the family of Fatima RA at the hand of the rightly guided Caliphs.

There were extremely small sects who had some odd ideas, but they made up the small minority and do not represent the "general" idea of a "Shia".

najamsahar wrote: Now the the opne minded and educated people of the present generations (who heard all these goat stories while growing up) especially in the US, have changed their ways of thinking and some have embraced Sunnism as the right path, alhamdulillah. Again, these are exceptions!

From my studies and interviews with Shia, I am not privy to the idea of Shi'ites believing that goats ate the QUran and it no longer stands without error as indeed a fact of their belief system. I am only am familiar with it as a polemic derived from a possible, small minority view.

najamsahar wrote:   Some more of these, know that they are wrong but then do not make a declaration of being Sunni because of family/community pressures. The brother who started this discussion meant to ask about the Shia faith and shi'ite people, not exceptions. -Najamsahar

No, he asked about their general beliefs surrounding the goat story, and I provided him with 1) my experiences 2) experiences of others (which I did explain as experience) and 3) facts about their beleifs vs polemics that are based upon exaggerated ideas of a very small minority.

Mohammad wrote: Yesterday night I had very hot talk with one friend of mine about shias, he insisting that shias are no so longer Muslim. I told him that we should not declare the Shias as disbeliever because they are believe on oneness of Allah's, they believe on all of Prophets, they believe on all Books of Allah, they believe on Angels & recursion of last day. They also believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is the last prophet & Holy Qurain is the word of Allah Almighty, So how we can say that these are less or disbeliever.

The rule that actions speak louder than the words still holds true.

In case of Shias the fundamental principal of Islam gets knocked over by the practice of TAKEEYA in general and their dealing with sunni Muslims in particular. You can see the Shias are actively in the Muslims� face in the subcontinent during the first 10 days of Muhurrum with their passion of Hussain spectacles which are akin to the passion of jesus christ in the poor catholic countries. . Did you ever see them stopping self flagellation procession for a prayer.

 Another arrogant point which the Shias have done that they add  and Shahs to their names giving the impression that they are the direct descendents of Prophet and they have god given rights to do whatever ritual darn well they please. This is more like the Jewish attitude being the chosen race thing.

Mohammad wrote: He was giving the many arguments in favor of his stand but some of his arguments is put me in difficult position to counter. He was saying that shias are believe that Qurain consist on forty parts 10 parts were eaten by goats at the time of Hazart Osman, so it means they are not believing the present Qurain is complete which is consisting 30 parts. So in this way they are ignoring the Allah promise that I am the one who is revealing this & I will be a guardian of this. .

Hard to find out how many are with the goat thinking? I am sure anything the Khulafa Rashida did was for nothing. Just like the Jews, these Syed crowd thinks they have direct line to God and then Prophet.

Mohammad wrote: This friend was telling me that they also amend the Kalama (Taueed). .

They do add Ali waliullah to Kalima. How to do you test  people practicing  Takkeeya?

Mohammad wrote: What is the my point here if Shias are the so big contradictions then why not Muslim Scholars unanimously decide about them as they did about Ahamdias. May some one clarify truth. I expect the literal input from all of you. .

There is no panel powerful and independent enough to take up this issue bcs the Muslim lands are in the grip of neo colonial powers. Let me give you point to ponder>>>>>>>>>> the Ahmedis have their Khalifa,  the Shias have their Imam and the system and passion, and  Khalafat is homeless while it�s territories are divided into bunch of secular or otherwise fiefdoms, it�s educated class runs away to serve the empire in the west.

What difference would it make to the uneducated folks stuck in the fiefdoms if the Shias are classified like Ahmedis ?  It wouldn�t work-- not that it has worked in case of Ahmadis. The Ahmedis are quite prosperous in the western countries so far I have noticed, The Ahmedia movement was subcontinental based so Bhutto/Zia could do the politically expedient thing, where as the Shias are entrenched in every ME fiefdom beside Iran. Do your research!!!!

 Also think what was the state of the affairs in the sub continent when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad declared to have his purported revelations; the east India company had run over the Muslim rule in India. Pretty rotten time whichever you look at.

How can one make such an edict without power of enforcement.

 Also at this moment in time the Shias are on ascendant while main line Muslims are in disarray. The Muslims(Sunnis) had become fat dumb and happy till opposing forces crumbled their realms and there was no backup plan to fend off the colonial and afterward neo colonial setups.  Just think the small minority sect of Alawites are ruling the big majority of Sunnis in Syria. And the new sect of Wahabis ruling over the Hermain Sharif.

You will also note that the destruction of Iraq has been started by the murderous fight between Imami Shias and leaderless Muslims(Sunnis). We or our children  will see whether the leftover ruin will be salvageable for the muslims.

 I don�t know if you have read the Hadith about the find of Euphrates treasure (oil) and the fire fight which will ensue for it�s possession. The greed  will destroy the parties both calling themselves as Muslims.

Last but not the least these Shias have held important positions in the administrations of old Caliphates but were also the traitors at the time of major catastrophes hitting the Muslim realms e.g., Halaku &, Crusades. And the Iraqi mess not that it was under a Caliphate though should have been if the people were truly Muslims.  May Allah wake us all to the reality!!!!!!!BTW Jinnah was a Ismaeeli Shia

 

Sign reader:What is takkeeya?

-NS

Signreader:

Thanks, I knew some of what you wrote but not under the heading of takeeya.

My own experience has not been good either. I grew up with Shia people around in one way or the other.

Apart from our own experiences that may lead to a prejudice, I cannot be one with a people that have changed the kalima, added stuff to the religion, regard Ali RA and their present day Imams with a reverence that is totally unislamic and finally they made us sunni.

I mean before the whole Ali ra incident everyone was muslim. After this though we become the first two sects of Islam- sunni and shia!

They are desperate to be at contradiction with the sunnis. For eg, they first pray the maghrib salat and then break fast.

At the Prophets mosque in Almadina Almunnawwarah, right near the Rowdah where he PBUH is resting, they start their own prayers about Fatima RA, how she was denied whatever and how she suffered.

 I mean before the whole Ali ra incident everyone was muslim. After this though we become the first two sects of Islam- sunni and shia!

-Najamsahar