Seems to me the Bible is telling stories of stuff that happened in history - not condoning it, just telling it as it happened. I suppose the lesson to be gained is "read this, it was bad - DON'T do it!"

And again - why take it so seriously - the Bible has been _edited_, remember?

Kim...

kim! wrote: ...... I suppose the lesson to be gained is "read this, it was bad - DON'T do it!"

This is a strange conclusion. If the holiest of holy book is not telling what is right and what is wrong then who shall decide? The aethiests? or someone else?

kim! wrote: And again - why take it so seriously - the Bible has been _edited_, remember? Kim...

Again, this is hight of apathy towards a relegion! If the so called book of guidance, the book for which people spend their entire life to live by it word by word is not to be taken seriously, then which else book needs to be taken seriously?

Surely the main message for Christians is "Love your God, Love thy neighbour as thyself"  ie:REspect God and be nice to each other!

Really, is there anything else we need to know?

Isn't that what Jesus said. In summary - "well, Dad gave you 10 commandments, and you still couldn't get it right, so try this: Love God and be nice to other people. Simple, right???"

Is there anything else Christians are supposed to do?

And yes, of course the Bible has been edited, and there are still loads of variations being published right this minute. They all depend on the intent of the editor - eg: who the audience is meant to be (young people? Older people? Western people?)

Kim...

That last post is rather disgusting. We all know people who come from Christian countries have done so many bad things. But what people fail to mention is that people from all countries do bad things. As for muslims killing in Sudan, Adia Minor, Cyprus etc etc. proves my point. So have Hindus killed, Sikhs.. the list goes on. And all these judgements from us humans. Personally i could say all the bad things that have happened but theres no point. Why? Because whoever you are.. a muslim or a Christian, you will be judged by GOD and only God. We live on this earth for a little time and God has no beginning or end. Basically stop judging one religion of something that have happened, God does not find satisfaction in that.

God bless

kim! wrote: Surely the main message for Christians is "Love your God, Love thy neighbour as thyself"  ie:REspect God and be nice to each other! Really, is there anything else we need to know? Isn't that what Jesus said. In summary - "well, Dad gave you 10 commandments, and you still couldn't get it right, so try this: Love God and be nice to other people. Simple, right???"

I guess you are quite simple in your approach if not simplistic. Do you intend to replace whole Bible with this one sentence? I think you are specifically looking at those who wants "little fun" in their life before they run out of their youth..Allow me to further guess that it is for these kind of people (specifically christian youth) that whole Bible is put aside when these people start arguing about the authenticity and contents in the book.

Is there anything else Christians are supposed to do?

I think, Yes. They need to identify to whom to pray. Should they pray to the God of Jesus to whom Jesus also used to pray or should they pray to others. I think this is quite an important point. Isn't it?

And yes, of course the Bible has been edited, and there are still loads of variations being published right this minute. They all depend on the intent of the editor - eg: who the audience is meant to be (young people? Older people? Western people?) Kim...

I have no comments on your description of this problem except to ask you the possible solution to this problem. Which book should they consider as a navigator for their lives? A book that could lead them to the right path.

May God provide us the wisdom and direction in the search of truth. Amen.

Yes and if he aint a christain kill him. (if all neibours are christain then obviously they gona love they neighbour)

Peace and Salam to all,

We are a little "off-topic" from the orignal post, however, I would like to provide some feedback from someone who was born and raised (until 21) as a Christian, and converted to Islam.

The idea that Christians are just waiting for the chance to slaughter Muslims is not true (in my experience), and vice versa. The hatred and hostility that has developed between Muslims and Christians over the centuries is, in my opinion, a result of two things. 1.) Legitimate doctrinal differences that neccessitate a certain emotional and intellectual "distance" from one another (this is the smaller part) and 2.) Illegitimate mistrust and fear based on stereotypes and misunderstandings about the others beliefs (this is most of it).

I have participated in actual (meaning face to face) interfaith dialogues and have almost chuckled to myself when, inevitably, my Muslim brothers make comments like, " WoW. They were really nice!" Then I say, " When they said they wanted to have us for dinner did you think they wanted to EAT US?"

Although Muslims do not accept the Bible as being the unchanged Word of God, as Christians do, Muslims will find many similar stories, moral principles in the Bible that exist in the Quran. In addition, any Chrisitian who reads the Bible must admit (if they are honest), that there are many parts which are confusing, shocking and even pornographic (i.e., descriptions of Prophets having incesteous relationships with their children, etc.). Most Chrisitians, however, are only marginally (if at all) familiar with the ENTIRE bible, and only memorize certain verses which conform with current Church doctrine.

On a day to day, person to person leve, however, Muslims and Christians generally get along very well. I live in a majority Christian country (the U.S.), however, I have experienced very little discrimination or hostility from those who are aware of my religious beliefs. The harmonious co-existance should be encouraged, promoted and protected by both Christians and Muslims.

I would also say to my Christian brothers and sisters that, as you would not want your religion to be judged based on the behavior of Christians, do not judge Islam based on the behavior of Muslims. I would encourage the brave among you to get a copy of the Quran (In fact, I think C.A.I.R., Council on American Islamic Relations,  is sending them our for free now) and read it. May Allah (God) help and guide us all to the straight path.

Ali Zaki wrote:     In addition, any Chrisitian who reads the Bible must admit (if they are honest), that there are many parts which are confusing, shocking and even pornographic (i.e., descriptions of Prophets having incesteous relationships with their children, etc.).

True - most us have never read the entire Bible. Mind you, and I mean no disrespect, most Christians would probably choke at the thought of a prophet marrying a child under the age of 10 as much as reading about other prophets committing incest.

Besides, if you believe the creation story, incest was inevitable back in The Old Days because Adam and Eve only had 2 sons. Where did the rest of the human race come from?

Kim...

Peace Kim,

I'm surprised that you would equate the legal, accepted practice of the Prophets marriage to Aisha when she was legally a women according to Islam and her cuture with an abhorent practice (incest) that has never been accepted by any culture, religion at any place or time.

Quickly, here's the difference.

Marriageable Age of Women

Historically, the accepted, marriageable age of a women has varied widely based on the circumstances and situation of both the culture, the family and the individual. Allah (God) has set a minimum (the onset of puberty), and has left it to the society to determine the specific, acceptable age. To attempt to apply the current, acceptable standards of Western culture today, where the average lifespan is 80+ years (versus 50+ at the time of the prophet), and the infant mortality rate is low (was very high at the time of the Prophet) is misleading at best. Much more can be said regarding this matter, but I will leave it to others or another time.

Incest

Incest, or course, is an abhorent practice that is totally indefensible. Allah (God) has made revulsion for this practice so ingrained in humanity that there is not evidence that any society has ever accepted it. The religious, physicological, biological objections to this are so many and so obvious that defense of it becomes impossible under any circumstances. Islam teaches us that Allah created a way for the children of Adam and Eve to avoid this tragedy (although their are some disagreements among scholars on the exact details regarding how this was done), and no Muslim scholar would dare say that a Prophet of Allah would engage in such practices. I am surprised how my Christians brother accept behavior from the prophets that they would not accept for themselves.

It doesn't matter what is legal in various places - it is _still_ true that many Christians would think an old man marrying what they regard as a young child utterly abhorent and indefensible.

I'm not discussing legalities and illegalities, I was talking about how people view different situations.

I mean, would _you_ marry a 9 year-old? And if not, why not?

How would you have punished Mary Kay Letourneau, the teacher who had sex with the 12 year-old boy? Would you charge her with rape and child-molestation or adultery? (They got married the other day, by the way. I only just noticed it on the internet!)

Kim...

Peace to Kim,

Your direct question is easy to answer (of course), NO! Why not? The reasons are many 1.) A nine year old (in the United States in 2005) is a young child and not remotely ready, willing or able to accept either the rights or responsibilities of marriage, 2.) It is illegal 3.) I do not have the means nor the desire to take on the responsibilities of supporting and protecting another wife (since I already have one)...and the list goes on and on...

Islam is a universal relgion and is equally applicable to all people in all ages and places. As a result, Islam gives clear guidance on things such as the (wajib) and forbidden (haram), the recommended (mustahab) and discouraged (makruh). Some types of decision are left (completely) to the individual, and others are left conditionally to the individual. The decisions in the last category will depend on the time and society in which the individual lives, as well as the regulations of Islam.

The age of marriage is one example of the last category, as are many other things (such as polygamy, marriage to "those whom your right hand posseses (which is not applicable in our age), and others). Islam is not a rigid or prudish religion, and it gives rights and responsibilities to men and women that are consistent with their natural desires and duties.

Regarding the molestation of the 12-year old boy by his teacher, this is a completely different matter for several reasons. For one thing, this did not occur in a Muslim society and, therefore, their is no question as to whether punishment would be instituted according to Sharia law. Let's say it did occur in a Muslim society (for the sake of argument), then the it is a double (or maybe triple) crime because 1.) In Islamic law, a boy cannot consent to marriage until puberty (which is much later in boys, around 14-15) and 2.) It is also adultry (on the womens part) because (I believe) she was already married or fornication (if she was unmarried).

One more point, If a female (regardless of her age) is still living with her parents, then the man must be given permission by the father to marry his daughter. What is better protection for the women then her fathers consent.

Peace.