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Why we Die

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Topic: Why we Die
Posted By: Israfil
Subject: Why we Die
Date Posted: 31 August 2006 at 4:56pm

Any discussion on this subject?

 




Replies:
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 31 August 2006 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Any discussion on this subject?

 

How about cellular mechanisms wear out and are unable to maintain homeostasis?

Although this is valid, I am making jest of course Br.

This is an extremely deep topic. What angle are you looking at this from?



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 31 August 2006 at 9:31pm

Andalus,

In times like these in examining such a question I generally like to take the meaphysical approach. In my humble opion I look at death as in the breakdown of matter due to a contradiction of law i.e the immaterial immortal soul contained in a temporal and material form i.e. a physical body. Some religionist (and our co-religionist) believe that the soul is our "real" and for a better understanding in the Islamic concept that this physical form is but a shadow of absolute reality and that in order to come to a state of absolute reality there must be a transition of self from the physical world to the spiritual world. Unfortunately this transition involves death. But fortunately after death we cycle back to life which in this case is the hereafter. Well, what that is my thought but not like it matters here anyway



Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 31 August 2006 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Andalus,

In times like these in examining such a question I generally like to take the meaphysical approach. In my humble opion I look at death as in the breakdown of matter due to a contradiction of law i.e the immaterial immortal soul contained in a temporal and material form i.e. a physical body. Some religionist (and our co-religionist) believe that the soul is our "real" and for a better understanding in the Islamic concept that this physical form is but a shadow of absolute reality and that in order to come to a state of absolute reality there must be a transition of self from the physical world to the spiritual world. Unfortunately this transition involves death. But fortunately after death we cycle back to life which in this case is the hereafter. Well, what that is my thought but not like it matters here anyway

Your thoughts do count and are welcome Br.

It is late and I am out of time this evening.

ma'salaama



-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 12:59am

To me death itself does not exist as I understand it from the Qur'an teaching. Our bodies and the trees and other animals are just the same thing, we are under the unstoppable entropy. By right we have been tought all along to drop the "I" before we die and we must give it up and die in the state of "WE". This method is acceptable and understandable to everyone, easy teaching. Clinging to "I" that is sitting in something that is dying is unreasonable.

Allahu Akhad is written in chapter 112, and Akhad means unit. Once we stop thinking our individual self as an independent lone being - than we will feel belong to the cosmos, one with the cosmos. There is no death in it.

I copy and paste below here what I can find from 4 different chapters, chapter 56 has something to think. 

Every soul will taste of death. And ye will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter paradise, he indeed is triumphant.
The life of this world is but comfort of illusion.
(3:185)

Every soul must taste of death, and We try you with evil and with good, for ordeal. And unto Us ye will be returned. (21:35)

Every soul will taste of death. Then unto Us ye will be returned. (29:57)

We created you. Will ye then admit the truth? ( 56:57)
Have ye seen that which ye emit? (56:58)
Do ye create it or are We the Creator ? (56:59)
We mete out death among you, and We are not to be outrun, (56:60)
That We may transfigure you and make you what ye know not. (56:61)
And verily ye know the first creation. Why, then, do ye not reflect? (56:62)



Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 9:56am

On Death

Shaykh Abu Bilal Mustafa al-Kanadi

Mysteries of the Soul - Expounded

� 1994 Abul-Qasim Publishing House

------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------

Allaah takes souls at the time of their death and [the souls] of those that do not die during their sleep. He retains those souls for which He has ordained death, whereas He releases the rest for an appointed term. [39:42]

Ibnul-Qayyim identifies over 90 supporting statements from the Quran, the Sunnah and sayings of the companions, which altogether give a complete picture of the nature of the human soul and the conditions which surround it.

If you could see when the worngdoers taste the pangs of death and the angels stretch their hands out, [saying], 'Deliver up your souls. This day you will be awarded a degrading punishment.' [6:93]

Here it is stated that death is painful for the disbelievers. Although they are ordered to surrender their souls to the angels, they are unwilling; therefore, the soul must be forced out as it does not wish to meet its punishment. [Qurtubi]

According to hadeeth: The Angel of Death... [says], 'O you foul soul, come out to the anger and wrath of your Lord.' The soul inside the disbeliever's body is overcome by terrible fear [and does not want to deliver itself up], whereupon the Angel of Death violently pulls it out like multi-pronged skewers being yanked out of wet wool - tearing with them the ateries and nerves.

Umm Salamah (radhiAllaahu 'anha) reported: Allaah's messenger (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) entered upon Abu Salamah [i.e., his corpse], whose eyes were wide open. The prophet closed the lids and then said, 'When the ruh is taken out, the eyesight follows it [i.e., watches it ascend].' [Muslim & Ahmed]

The Angel of Death comes to the [dying] believer, sits at his head and says, 'O you good soul, come out and receive your Lord's forgiveness and pleasure.' Then the soul flows out effortlessly just as water flows from the mouth of a waterskin.

Abu Hurairah (radhiAllaahu 'anhu) narrated that the messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said: When the soul of a believer comes out [of its body], two angels receive it and rise with it towards the heavens, whereupon the inhabitants of the heavens say, "A good soul has come from the earth. Allaah has blessed you and the body which you used to occupy." [Muslim]

The nafs and the ruh: The correct view, as maintained by the vast majority of Muslim theologians and endorsed by the scholars of ahl-us-Sunnah, is that the terms nafs and ruh are interchangeable. However, the term nafs is usually applied when the soul is inside the body, and the word ruh is used when the soul is aprt from the body. However, each one has clearly distinct and restricted applications in certain contexts. E.g., nafs may represent self as in 24:61, or revelation as in 42:52, or Jibreel as in 26:192-193, or in an even more restricted sense e.g., spirit of faith as in 58:22.

Hadeeths which prove that both are the same thing:

Umm Salamah (radhiAllaahu 'anha) reported that the messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said: When the ruh is taken out, the eyesight follows it.

Abu Hurairah (radhiAllaahu 'anhu) reported that the messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said: Do you not see that when a person dies his gaze is fixed intently; that occurs when his eyesight follows his nafs [as it comes out] [Both in Muslim & Qurtubi's at-Tadhkirah] Also see Siddeeq Hasan Khan's Fath-ul-Bayaan.

The experience of death: Every soul will taste death [3:185]

Hardships and agonies:

And the agony of death comes, in truth; that is what you wished to avoid. [50:19] In this verse the phrase "sakratul mawt" is used to indicate the swoon of death. This verse implies that every dying person must experience some pain and torment. [See al-Alusi's Ruh-ul-Ma'ani and Qurtubi's tafseer]

Aishah (radhiAllaahu 'anha) related: [On the occasion of his approaching death], Allaah's messenger (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) had a small vessel of water placed before him. He began to dip his hands in the water,a nd wiping his face with them. He said: There is none worthy of worship except Allaah. Indeed death brings with it agonies! Then he raised his hand up and kept repeating, 'In the most exalted company' until his soul was taken and his hand fell limp. [Bukhari]

Aishah (radhiAllaahu 'anha) reported: Truly, I saw the messenger of Allaah when death approached him. He had a container with some water in it into which he dipped his hand and then wiped his face. Then he said: O Allaah help me to overcome the agonies of death.

Appearance of Satan:

Hadeeth: Verily Satan comes to you at all circumstances and affairs of your life, even at the time of eating. [Muslim]

Al-Qurtubi mentions that a great number of pious and dependable scholars are known to have witnessed the presence of Satan at death. He relates that he heard one of his own respected teachers, Imam Abul-'Abbaas Ahmad bin 'Umar al-Qurtubi, say, "I visited the brother of our teacher, shaikh Abu Jafar Muhammad al-Qurtubi at Cordova and found him near death. It was said to him, 'Repeat Laa ilaaha illallaah,', to which he replied, 'No! No!' When he came to, we mentioned what had occurred. He said, 'Tow devils came to me , one on my left and the other on my right. One of them said, "Die as a Jew, for verily it is the best of religions," while the other said, "Die as a Christian, for truly it is the best of religions." So I answered them saying, "No! No! How dare you say such a thing to me!"

Repentance before death:

Hadeeth: When any of you completes the last tashahhud of his prayer, let him seek refuge in Allaah from four things, saying, 'O Allaah, verily I seek refuge in you from the punishment of the Hellfire and the torment of the grave; from the fitnah of life and of death; and from the evil fitnah of the false messiah.[Muslim, Nasai & others]

Allaah accepts the repentance of the servant so long as his spirit has not arrived at his throat. [Tirmidhi, al-Haakim, Ibn Hibbaan]

Their faith was of no use to themonce they saw Our doom. [40:85]

Forgiveness is not for those who continue to do evil deeds up until when death comes to one of them [and] he says, 'Truly, I repent now!' [4:18]

 



Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 11:21pm
Originally posted by Muhammad77 Muhammad77 wrote:

On Death

Shaykh Abu Bilal Mustafa al-Kanadi

Mysteries of the Soul - Expounded

� 1994 Abul-Qasim Publishing House

 
Thanks brother for the article, but sorry I did not read it. I promise I will read it if you type what you have in mind, I promise.
 
Allah coineth a similitude:
(on the one hand) a (mere) chattel slave, who hath control of nothing,
and (on the other hand) one on whom we have bestowed a fair provision from Us, and he spendeth thereof secretly and openly. Are they equal ?
Praise be to Allah! But most of them know not. (16:75)


Posted By: Muhammad77
Date Posted: 02 September 2006 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by superme superme wrote:

Originally posted by Muhammad77 Muhammad77 wrote:

On Death

Shaykh Abu Bilal Mustafa al-Kanadi

Mysteries of the Soul - Expounded

� 1994 Abul-Qasim Publishing House

 
Thanks brother for the article, but sorry I did not read it. I promise I will read it if you type what you have in mind, I promise.
 
Allah coineth a similitude:
(on the one hand) a (mere) chattel slave, who hath control of nothing,
and (on the other hand) one on whom we have bestowed a fair provision from Us, and he spendeth thereof secretly and openly. Are they equal ?
Praise be to Allah! But most of them know not. (16:75)

Superme, the post which I posted is not of somebody's mind. It is not somebody's opinion. Do not take it as somebody's opinion. It is about what Islam talks of death. It is the truth, and that is how death shall come to every person. So read it.

 



Posted By: Megatron
Date Posted: 03 September 2006 at 12:29am

It's all about the telomeres.  Your DNA gets shortened as your cells constanly divide causing aging. 

So we have two options here:

1. Work on Genetic Therapy startegies to extend our lifespan to thousands of years.

2. Design AI equal in cognitive capacity to humans and upload our thoughts experiences etc. to a robot.

I vote for the latter, because I want a powerful robot claw in the future, I was going to go with a large laser canon, but if I have a crazy dream, I might set that thing off in the middle of the night and destroy my aparment. 

 



Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 04 September 2006 at 12:16am
Originally posted by Muhammad77 Muhammad77 wrote:

On Death

Shaykh Abu Bilal Mustafa al-Kanadi

Mysteries of the Soul - Expounded

� 1994 Abul-Qasim Publishing House

Superme, the post which I posted is not of somebody's mind. It is not somebody's opinion. Do not take it as somebody's opinion. It is about what Islam talks of death. It is the truth, and that is how death shall come to every person. So read it.

I believe you brother that his writing is not a play. But the Shaykh was nobody as well before he became a shaykh then just like us. I am sure he must have some discussion in his life, and this place is the place for discussion. I am sure you have something for this topic to discuss.



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 04 September 2006 at 9:11am

Let me re-establish my other theory that I had.

Besides organisms within our body that deteriorates our body (as well as causing us to age), I believe that apart of this energy that deteriorates us comes from the soul. The soul being of pure energy (whether you consider it divine or another form of energy) power and temporally sustaining but over time deteriorates our body. The soul is thus released at the time of death and undergoes another transformation (or transcedental stage) where it is another form (in this case the soul goes to the Divine Empyrean or Hell).



Posted By: UmmTaaha
Date Posted: 06 September 2006 at 11:31pm

Death is a door which takes the ruh from this realm (the present world) into another realm (barzakh).

The answer to why do we die, returns to why are we born. The causes of birth and death are connected to the will of God. He created us from nothing, and returns us to nothing, then He gives us life once again. Between the two nothing we have a physical form, that goes about in a temporal world bound by the limits of time and space. All of this is through the will of God, which every creation abides by, weather willingly or unwillingly.

 

 



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 September 2006 at 9:34am
Ok, and I know that but did you understand what I said in the post above yours? Alas I keep forgetting that people here aren't into Metaphysics


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 07 September 2006 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Megatron Megatron wrote:

2. Design AI equal in cognitive capacity to humans and upload our thoughts experiences etc. to a robot.




I want this too, does it comes with jet pack?


Posted By: lovetabuleh
Date Posted: 08 September 2006 at 11:50am
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Let me re-establish my other theory that I had.

Besides organisms within our body that deteriorates our body (as well as causing us to age), I believe that apart of this energy that deteriorates us comes from the soul. The soul being of pure energy (whether you consider it divine or another form of energy) power and temporally sustaining but over time deteriorates our body. The soul is thus released at the time of death and undergoes another transformation (or transcedental stage) where it is another form (in this case the soul goes to the Divine Empyrean or Hell).

 

The soul is from Allah.  Allah blew into us from His soul.  Therefore it is impossible to imply that the soul deteriorates or transforms.  At the time of death, like brother muhammad77 related in the article, the soul is released from the body and taken in by angels.  At the time of death our soul is just being moved from one temporary environment (dunya, or the worldly life) into another, eternal environment (al akhira).

the way it is released from the body of a believer differs from the way it is released from the body of a disbeliever.  the former is less painful than the latter.

 what else are you trying to figure out about death?  it's like you're doing brain surgery here. there's nothing else to dissect!

 

:)



Posted By: lovetabuleh
Date Posted: 08 September 2006 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Megatron Megatron wrote:

It's all about the telomeres.  Your DNA gets shortened as your cells constanly divide causing aging. 

So we have two options here:

1. Work on Genetic Therapy startegies to extend our lifespan to thousands of years.

2. Design AI equal in cognitive capacity to humans and upload our thoughts experiences etc. to a robot.

I vote for the latter, because I want a powerful robot claw in the future, I was going to go with a large laser canon, but if I have a crazy dream, I might set that thing off in the middle of the night and destroy my aparment. 

 

 

Haha, ur too funny...

 

I herd about these folk who think they could challange death   http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4003063.stm - click here  

 

 



Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 08 September 2006 at 2:06pm

Someone dies when he born and also someone born when he dies...Dear Israfil,where do you know that we will die? and also where do you know that we were born?...relativity is not relative when the time comes to death and live;to live breathing is not enough;to die tombs are not enough...

00:04am,Brother Suleyman,just had his degree on 1st level philosophy...



Posted By: lovetabuleh
Date Posted: 09 September 2006 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Suleyman Suleyman wrote:

Someone dies when he born and also someone born when he dies...Dear Israfil,where do you know that we will die? and also where do you know that we were born?...relativity is not relative when the time comes to death and live;to live breathing is not enough;to die tombs are not enough...

00:04am,Brother Suleyman,just had his degree on 1st level philosophy...

 

huh? 

well that's a philosophy not related to any critical analysis of our belief system!

 

death and life can't be any more realative to our lifestyle than they already are.   they're so real, it's like a jab in the face.

 

questions that don't make any sence don't belong in philosophy.   philosophy is an intelectual analysis of a belief systems that is not redundant or superfluous.

i hated it when ppl in my philosophy class came up with the most redundant inquiries that produce a blurred image from what is originally clear and completely unambiguous.  it's like.. ppl please get back on track! don't just spew out obtuse questions left and right, ruining the proper, intelectual mold that philosophy was built on!  really, a convoluted approach was never a way to understand a uniform idea.  

Alhamdulillah ala deen al Islam.  I never fail to realize how much of a blessing it is to be a Muslim.  otherwise, i would easily have been confused out of my wits from these lay folk and begin to wonder aimlessly about things beyond my congigence and drown in an abyss of unnessisary enigma.  

 



Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 10 September 2006 at 10:47am

Dear Amalhayati,my words for the ones who has the sight to see the proper belief system backside of the words:"one is not living when lives and one is not death when he dies"... 

As an philosophy graduated sister of you,you should not ask where are the belief inside of these words,i have no time(only limited times i do enter in) to tell or write on belief system of Islam,all i can do is for reminding belief system inside of your souls with some key words as shown above.

If you rethink on these words u will realize how they symbolize complicated regular belief system...best regards.

 



Posted By: lovetabuleh
Date Posted: 10 September 2006 at 9:11pm

Brother Sulayman, i didn't quite understand what you posted.  are you saying that you are a philosophy graduate or you implying that I am? 

i could understand the phrase 'one is not living when he lives and he is not dead when he dies'  because our life is short and it's like we are sleeping. when we die, we wake up.  that's a metaphorical idea of life.  Prophet Muhammad (SAW) told us that.

but you did not say that phrase before, you said, "Someone dies when he born and also someone born when he dies"

this phrase doesn't add up.  it's just a jumble of words.  how can you die simultaneously as you're born?  so that was my point. 

one classmate came up to me and started asking me all these lame quesitons like- 'how do you know that this wall is white and not blue?'  'who's to decide what hurts and what doesn't if you cut yourself?'  'how can god make a circle out of a square?'   it really got me sick to listen to him.   it seemed for a moment that he had no functional brain in that head of his.  he questioned the reality of everything his eyes showed him or the rest of his senses taught him.

that's what bothered me in my philosophy class. some students take it too far and excessive while not making any sense.  if they were talking of simething feasible i'd be happy to join in the discussion.

 

no but your post in wisher's thread was helarious!  i couldn't stop laughing.  that was original.  :)

 

salaam,



Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 10 September 2006 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by amalhayati2 amalhayati2 wrote:

Brother Sulayman, i didn't quite understand what you posted.  are you saying that you are a philosophy graduate or you implying that I am? 

i could understand the phrase 'one is not living when he lives and he is not dead when he dies'  because our life is short and it's like we are sleeping. when we die, we wake up.  that's a metaphorical idea of life.  Prophet Muhammad (SAW) told us that.

but you did not say that phrase before, you said, "Someone dies when he born and also someone born when he dies"

this phrase doesn't add up.  it's just a jumble of words.  how can you die simultaneously as you're born?  so that was my point. 

one classmate came up to me and started asking me all these lame quesitons like- 'how do you know that this wall is white and not blue?'  'who's to decide what hurts and what doesn't if you cut yourself?'  'how can god make a circle out of a square?'   it really got me sick to listen to him.   it seemed for a moment that he had no functional brain in that head of his.  he questioned the reality of everything his eyes showed him or the rest of his senses taught him.

that's what bothered me in my philosophy class. some students take it too far and excessive while not making any sense.  if they were talking of simething feasible i'd be happy to join in the discussion.

 

no but your post in wisher's thread was helarious!  i couldn't stop laughing.  that was original.  :)

 

salaam,

As Salamu Alaykum Dear Amalhayati,

Yes i do sometimes make fun in the board,i am glad i gave you smile for a minute we need so much at these days...

I can understand what you are bothering about the problems you have told is the on ei have faced in my life,agreed and agreed but i have no time to explain my point...i wish you the best in your life wa salaam....

 

A note:i am not a philosopher but one i heard in the board that you have graduated from,may be i misunderstood....

 



Posted By: lovetabuleh
Date Posted: 11 September 2006 at 7:19am

I graduated with a BA in Biology, also I am a CPhT. no philosophy major, just good in it.   I took a philosophy class, Philosophy of Science.  it was intriguing and though provoking. but when they started talking about creationism, the teach never mentioned what Islam believed in relation to evolution.  so i did. and the teacher was in awe.

 

Salaam,



Posted By: fogtrik
Date Posted: 11 September 2006 at 1:58pm

Hi folks.

The body is the result of nano-machines, proteins. About 20,000 of them. Go to http://www.wikipedia.org - www.wikipedia.org and look up apoptosis, theory of aging, dna error, free radical damage, etc.

All very interesting. DNA errors cause more errors. Death is a natural part of ecosystems, eat a low calorie diet and you'll live longer :)

Foggy, humbled by Force 10 and sun.



Posted By: UmmTaaha
Date Posted: 11 September 2006 at 11:47pm

In a text quite unrelated to this subject, Imam Al Ghazali (ra) pointed out people's attitudes to definitions, and I think his quote applies to this thread.

Quote He to whom the realities beneath the terms are disclosed makes the ideas primary and the terms secondary: while inferior minds make the opposite course.

Not necessarily one needs to be a phylosopher to understand the idea of death.

However to understand people and to understand that people have primarily understood you, takes more than mere phylosophy.

 



Posted By: lovetabuleh
Date Posted: 12 September 2006 at 1:18am

Hey I see that Foggy's back on track!  what happened to ya in that missunderstood verses thread?  i whipped up a pretty good meal there and you didn't even bother to come for supper...

 

 

 



Posted By: fogtrik
Date Posted: 13 September 2006 at 5:21am
Hi, I was away surfing :) I'm still reading and partisipating. Good PM Amay'. Later. Foggy


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 13 September 2006 at 7:13am

Any discussion on this subject?

Why we Die

Brother Israfil, you mean in generally or could I tell you about my part of the world? Very few of us die, most used to killed by the Americans, they used to label all as Taliban fighters, even if it were a 7 and a half year old girl, with an arm already blown in some land mine.

Now the Brits and NATO have been sold this franchise.




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