I think some of your points are disputable:

unity1 wrote: "Atheism" which can be defined as a philosophy completely based on irreligious and scientific theories.

Technically, atheism is just a belief that there is no god. May have nothing to do with believing in 'chance' or 'determinism'. May also have nothing to do with 'irreligious' either, as one might conclude from the bad behaviour of some religious people: they must not believe there really IS a god to punish them, therefore they are religious and atheist!

According to their understanding and knowledge ,this entire world including our Universe is a product of chance...

Chance is not intrinsically linked to atheism. It's not a valid dichotomy to say god vs. chance. One could be an atheist and not believe in chance.

... and they donot support the concept of creation since they believe that Science supports their materialistic theories from every angle.

Science and creation are not mutually exclusive beliefs. Yesterday I was reading about a scientist at NASA who is an avid supporter of creationism.

Lets have a discussion on this topic and see whether Science truely supports the concept of creation or not?

I think there is widespread misunderstanding about what 'chance' is and what 'science' is. I've discussed chance before on IC so I'll just say this about science: science is an exploration method with few fixed beliefs. As soon as a theory is espoused by a scientist then other scientists set about (gleefully!) to disprove the theory, or find it's limits. All the theories are hypotheses, that is, temporary beliefs. Working beliefs. One follows that hypothesis until it asserts something that cannot be true, then you know the original hypothesis was wrong (modus ponens).

Science hypotheses must explain what we already know, and predict things we don't know yet. For example, 'evolution' does explain permutation and development of organisms, and it does predict some things about the future, such as evolution of 'anti-biotic' immune bacterias. Or the prediction of the moth, by Darwin 150 years ago, to pollinate the Comet Orchid (which was just recently identified).

F

unity1 wrote: "Atheism" which can be defined as a philosophy completely based on irreligious and scientific theories. According to their understanding and knowledge ,this entire world including our Universe is a product of chance and they donot support the concept of creation since they believe that Science supports their materialistic theories from every angle. Lets have a discussion on this topic and see whether Science truely supports the concept of creation or not? Regards,

Assalaamu Alaikum

I like the point you have made Unity1

I have no doubt that atheists (& alike) are way off course with their scientific thought patterns.

Much of the scientific research carried out, is bound by the scientists need to acquire grants/funding, this funding is often only given if the research has the potential to create a profit making product (such as in medical science). In this instance it is corporate wealth that drives science, and not the human trait of curiosity (with regards to wanting to discover the Magnificence of Allah�s [SWT] Creation).

��..they believe that science supports their materialistic theories from every angle.�

I must admit they do spin quite a convincing web of illusion, with regards to trying to explain every aspect of creation, via scientific means. However if a (wise) person looks closely enough, they will find that their explanations crumble at every juncture.

The competition at the head of the �technological rat race�, requires science to gloss over its many failings, this is done for the sake of �intellectual pride� (atheism). Intellectual pride knows nothing of - moral obligation.

Please let me know your thoughts Unity1

Alhamdulilah

As Salamu Alaikum  

Allah tells us in Surah Adh-Dhariyat 51: 56 "I have created Jinn and men, that they may worship Me Only."

If we believe in chance then no purpose in worshiping Allah, because there is no God, no accountability, no punishment, no reward, no paradise and no hell, there is no purpose in life.

Darwin's theory of evolution is regarded as the greatest support for atheism.

It was religion that showed man the way to know Allah and it was scientific facts in the Glorious Qur'an that led the early Muslim to study science. Religion first then science. Until a few centuries ago science was used to prove the existence of God, it was only in the last few centuries, 18^th or 19^th the role of science was reversed.

Modern day scientists are now proving that there is a God, A Supreme Creator.

Are we here by chance � NO Chance.

Salams

deist wrote: Greetings and peace, The difference between scientists and religion when it comes to that "unseen" is not really that big. Essentially it boils down to the point that the scientist will tell you "i dont know and cant yet explain, my theory goes like this" while the religious person will say "its God". But what exactly God is or how he supposedly did it he cant explain either. So in the end NEITHER knows, the difference is only that one makes a claim and "ends the discussion with that claim", while the other doesnt. It is of no use to simply claim that scientists would simply do that because they followed their ego or because they want power. In the end they are people like everybody else too. And contrary to religion, science is based on verification and not on simple belief. You already make a logical mistake when you simply assume that a force must be behind all that exists ! There is no conclusive proof for that either. Peace Deist

Assalaamu Alaikum

Deist - Just to pick up on a couple of your points, firstly � �my theory goes like this", there is no need for theory, if you believe in Divine Revelation.

My below post in the �Qur�an & Sunnah� section, illustrates that religious knowledge (contrary to your statement - �while the religious person will say "its God". But what exactly God is or how he supposedly did it he cant explain either�), does offer an explanation.

I would be most grateful if some of you are able to offer me some alternative translations of Ayat-ul-Kursi, as I currently only have one translation (by Muhammad Muhsin Khan & Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali) at hand, & it goes as follows:

Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyuum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains & protects all that exists). Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His permission? He knows what will happen to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter. And they will never encompass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

 May I also please ask if anyone can verify the following explanation given with the Ayat, in the copy of the Qur�an I posses: 

(V.2:255). Kursi � literally a footstool or chair, and sometimes wrongly translated as Throne. The Kursi mentioned in this Verse should be distinguished from the �Arsh (Throne) mentioned in V.7:54, 10:3, 85:15 and elsewhere. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: �The Kursi compared to the �Arsh is nothing but like a ring thrown out upon open space of desert.� If the Kursi extends over the entire universe, then how much greater is the �Arsh. Indeed Allah, the Creator of both the Kursi & the �Arsh, is the Most Great.

Ibn Taimiyah said in the chapters:

a)      To believe in the Kursi

b)      To believe in the �Arsh (Throne)

It is narrated from Muhammad bin �Abdullah and from other religious scholars that the Kursi is in front of the �Arsh (Throne) and it is at the level of the feet. [Fatawa Ibn Taimiyah, Vol 5, Pages 54, 55].

You also stated � �And contrary to religion, science is based on verification and not on simple belief.� Well I have discovered (scientific style) evidence of the �Kursi�  (a discovery I made before I embraced Islam). Evidence that I am so confident in; I have already approached scientific journals, international embassies (inc. the Saudi�s, Iranian�s, Chinese, Russians, and Israelis), and alike.

Guess what, they have all runaway from me!!!! Why do you think that is the case?

Yes they probably think I am crazy, however they thought such things about Prophet Muhammad (SAW). My opinion is that they do not wish to believe in Allah (SWT), hence they choose to remain in ignorance, even when the evidence is available.

I am not hiding, so please if you can find me a challenger on this issue, I am ready & waiting.

Wasalaam

nadir

deist wrote: You already make a logical mistake when you simply assume that a force must be behind all that exists ! There is no conclusive proof for that either. Peace Deist

You and I and the rest of the universe is proof  do you really need more.

Assalaamu Alaikum

Deist, your point on belief vs true theory�..

Belief does not exist as an independent entity. A person believes only if what they believe in, bares fruit (whether it be spiritual or physical, in nature).

The science vs Divine debate, which is what this really is, dictates that a scientist seeks knowledge of existence, so he/she can �understand�/manipulate (physical) existence.

Belief in Divine Predestination dictates that a person seeks knowledge of how to please Allah (SWT), so that he/she can find true happiness (in this world & the Hereafter), via morality (the Laws of Islam).

�I think we have different understandings on what we call "explanation". THe passages you posted below are postulations. They are so to speak "decorations" and give more "details" about a general statement. But they do not really explain.�

�His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them.� (Holy Qur�an 2:255)

If Allah (SWT), the Force that sustains all that exists (Al-Hayyal-Qayyuum - the Ever Lasting, the One who Sustains & Protects All that exists), were to slip into slumber for the smallest fraction of a second, the whole universe would collapse�.. I scientifically perceive the quote; I hope you may contemplate the matter further.  

�You should also consider by the way that even if there was some science in the quran it wouldnt mean that the whole religion is based on verification.�

If you (from a scientific stance) have a need to verify everything (by science), you will miss the point of morality. Please tell me how science can verify how a man made law, passed by a government, will morally effect the population? It cannot, it can only guess (through carrying out surveys of a tiny proportion of the population).

�I do not know why they have choosen not to listen to you. My best guess would be to assume that they didnt consider your arguments to be correct.
The idea that people ignore truth despite overwhelming evidence is rather improbable when it comes to such things as eternal hell versus paradise ;)
It is of course very convenient to simply put people that dont believe into a drawer labeled "ignorance".�     

Ha haa, well you see I haven�t actually given them any of the evidence (that would be rather stupid of me), all I have done is told them that I have discovered something which unifies the forces, scientists have been trying to unify for years. However, intellectual pride comes to mind. What would it mean to all their pompous scientific research, if a person from the street could walk in and solve something, they could not?

The forces I refer to are - electro magnetism, nuclear, (so called) atom glue, and gravity (general relativity). These forces are not independent of each other; One Force, Allah (SWT), controls them.

I can see what is happening in that; there are people like Stephen Hawkins who are using science as a means to get people to worship them. Did you know he has laid claim to a form of radiation, which we are told emanates from black holes, and called it � �Hawkin radiation�!

�They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah, and Messiah, son of Maryam, while they were commanded to worship none but One ilah, La ilaha illa Huwa. Glorified is He from having the partners they associate (with Him).�  Holy Qur�an 9:31

Narrated by Ahmad, At-Tirmidhi, & Ibn Jarir: Once while Allah�s Messenger (SAW) was reciting the Verse (9:31) �Abi bin Hatim said, �O�Allah�s Messenger! They do not worship them. Allah�s Messenger(SAW) said, �They certainly do. They made lawful things as unlawful, and unlawful things as lawful, and they followed them: and by doing so they really worshipped them�. (Tafsir At-Tabari, Vol. 10)     

Wasalaam

Nadir

deist wrote: Alwardah wrote: deist wrote: You already make a logical mistake when you simply assume that a force must be behind all that exists ! There is no conclusive proof for that either. Peace Deist You and I and the rest of the universe is proof  do you really need more. Actually that is no proof at all. It only states that something exists.

Okay this is simple for me,

Me and the rest of my world were created.

You and the rest of your world are here by chance.

So I believe in Allah (God), punishment and reward

To you there is no God, no punishment nor reward.

How sad nothing for you to really look forward to - just existing.

Alhamdulillah, Insha Allah I am working towards Paradise

Take care nice discussion.

Alwardah wrote: To you there is no God, no punishment nor reward.

You make a mistake here about Deist!

Why do you say he does not believe in God?

Alwardah wrote: If we believe in chance then no purpose in worshiping Allah, because there is no God, no accountability, no punishment, no reward, no paradise and no hell, there is no purpose in life.

Hence what's the purpose in living right?

Of course there is purpose in life 

Why do you think that there is no purpose in life if there is no purpose in worshipping God?

You correct that if no God, then no need to worship God

You still have accountability to yourself and others and your evironment.

You still have punishment, its just not from God. So you have man made rules where if you break them then you be punished. The same with the environment if you mess with it, you suffer.

You still have reward - your life and the senses of the world around you, those things that make you the most happiest. Take care of the environment and you are well and have food and water and materials to make things for living. 

You still have paradise - the wonderful and remarkable world you live in, being happy and joyess and peace.

You still have a hell, those things that you may consider your darkest hours of your life.

So if chance is the go, you still have purpose in life, just think a little  

Darwin's theory of evolution is regarded as the greatest support for atheism.

By whom, the atheist ?

It was religion that showed man the way to know Allah

Or it perhaps it was nature itself and the element of the world and not religion  

Are we here by chance � NO Chance.

Maybe, take away all the scriptures, do you actually know then ?

Angel wrote: Alwardah wrote: To you there is no God, no punishment nor reward. You make a mistake here about Deist! Why do you say he does not believe in God?

Sori Deist my apologies, from ur argument I assumed u don't believe in God, and everything is here by chance. Assumption is a bad thing. I thought in the forums, we are setting forward our opinions and views based on our beliefs.  

Sori will be more careful in future

Good points, Angel, Wow never really thought about it like that.

Angel wrote: You still have accountability to yourself and others and your evironment. You still have punishment, its just not from God. So you have man made rules where if you break them then you be punished.

Angel wrote:   The same with the environment if you mess with it, you suffer. You still have reward - your life and the senses of the world around you, those things that make you the most happiest. Take care of the environment and you are well and have food and water and materials to make things for living.  You still have paradise - the wonderful and remarkable world you live in, being happy and joyess and peace.

Angel wrote: You still have a hell, those things that you may consider your darkest hours of your life.   So if chance is the go, you still have purpose in life, just think a little     Maybe, take away all the scriptures, do you actually know then ?

Alwardah wrote: Okay this is simple for me, Me and the rest of my world were created. You and the rest of your world are here by chance. So I believe in Allah (God), punishment and reward To you there is no God, no punishment nor reward. How sad nothing for you to really look forward to - just existing. Alhamdulillah, Insha Allah I am working towards Paradise Take care nice discussion.

Secondly as i stated already somewhere here .. evolution is not about "chance".

Anyway...

Actually nothing in your above text contains any true argument or proof, it just contains the wish and hope that after this life something will happen and you continue to "live" somehow. You also seem to think that people that are atheists have nothing they work for. Its a classical claim often also used next to the idea that atheists per se have no morals.
In any case it is however totally unrelated to the real question.

If you reread your lines above then you will see that you seem to  base your belief on what you WANT and not so much on what you can PROOVE.
You believe because this belief gives you some perspective. You do not seem to be able to cope with a possible truth that renders your existence "unimportant". Or lets say you seem to think that live without a god is without sense and you seem to have a problem with
that.

My attitude here is different.
I follow a simple rule which says that "a true seeker of truth will follow the truth no matter how it looks like and whether he likes it or not".

Assalaamu Alaikum

Sister Alwardah

I enjoyed your piece:

Indeed you helped me to take morally just decisions over the last few days, as I remembered your words when I was in a situation, where in the past I may have slipped up. Hence please accept my personal gratitude for writing the above (as I think it meant more to me than Deist).

Deist, please do not pick on Alwardah, when you have not even met my challenge (�I am not hiding, so please if you can find me a challenger on this issue, I am ready & waiting�). If you think I know nothing of the science I have mentioned, it should be doubly easy for you to, make a fool of me. And if you refuse this challenge, then you are accepting that what I am professing (that I am able to scientifically unify the energy forces with gravity [general relativity]), is the truth!

Please, please accept my challenge; let me show who really knows!!!

nadir

deist wrote: First of all i didnt at all state what i believe in.

Sori very na�ve about the rules played on discussion boards,  I thought people discussed what they believed in. Insha Allah learning fast.

deist wrote: Secondly as i stated already somewhere here .. evolution is not about "chance"..

So what's the discussion � we are here by chance or evolved

deist wrote: In any case it is however totally unrelated to the real question.

Which is- we are here by chance

deist wrote: If you reread your lines above then you will see that you seem to  base your belief on what you WANT and not so much on what you can PROOVE. You believe because this belief gives you some perspective. You do not seem to be able to cope with a possible truth that renders your existence "unimportant". Or lets say you seem to think that live without a god is without sense and you seem to have a problem with that.

Actually u are correct, it doesn't contain proof because it is what I believe in, I believe I was created by the Supreme Creator, and yes I based my belief on what I want and believe to be the truth. And because I believe in creation I don't need proof.

Why should I worry about the possible truth about my existence being "unimportant" when I know that all creations are important, not only me.

Not true, i don't have any such problem, everyone sometimes or the other calls out to "god" � ever heard the expression "O God" even atheist use this expression quite often.

deist wrote: My attitude here is different. I follow a simple rule which says that "a true seeker of truth will follow the truth no matter how it looks like and whether he likes it or not".

True, true, I found my truth, I pray you find yours as well.

-------------
�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)

Assalaamu alaikum

Deist

You approach me with a viewpoint that has only ever seen �one side of the coin� (ie I know from the way you discuss things you do not, or have not known/applied � Islam).

�In this passage you already make a logical mistake. Because here you already assume that it is fact that Allah exists and that he want to be pleased, that there is a herafter and that morality comes through islam alone and so on. 
What i try to say is that belief doesnt really carry knowledge or lets you fnid new knowledge but rather defines or already contains the limits within which you may "look" for "truths". These truths however already are defined by the belief.�

I was raised with (the Christian version of) secular values, and yes I knew of morality, however I was to find out in time that the morality I knew, was built upon unsound foundations. I turned to Buddhism, which I studied for several years, and despite there been no mention of One God (One Creator, One Force - Controlling Existence) within the teachings, my meditations and the knowledge I perceived told me otherwise.

�Actually i only see another claim.
Yes you say that this is so. But there is no science and no proof for it.
You could just as well say that he can let the universe operate seperately if he wishes and sleep for a long while.
That claim would carry the same amount of verifiable truth.�

I have already told you that I can scientifically prove what I claim (there is only One Ilah [God] � Allah), proof I have not shown you. I am though (through confidence in what I know) able to challenge you, because I know you are unable to prove that there is no God, whether your proof is scientific, or moral.

I say you pick on Sister Alwardah, because you question her belief (�Since you believe in what you want it actually doesnt matter for you if you can proove it . Actually one might even argue that it doesnt matter for any believer even if someone would bring forth evidence or even proof that the belief is wrong. I do not really have a problem with that.�)

I have approached you stating I have proof (of One Ilah), & yet you continue to deny my words (Islam, is the religion Of Allah, the One, & Only God, Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe), despite not having the tiniest amount of evidence saying otherwise. Hence please do not use these means to disagree (& disrespect Alwardah), when you, yourself are guiltier of what you state, than she.

�Actually even that would be more than a religion per se does.
Religions generally say that this or that is bad or good. But whether it really is good or bad cant be shown by it. Instead it makes simply claims.
Science when dealing with this can at least empirically show whether something had a bad effect over time or not and then adapt.�

I am a person who knew not of Islam, however upon embracing Islam, & comparing (& applying) it�s Laws, to the laws I was previously aware of (applying), I can certify that Islam is Morally Superior to anything I have ever encompassed, I can even say � infallible (although I know you will not like me for saying so), obviously we as humans are not.

Are you able to say (after having applied the Laws of Islam to your life), Islam is not the Law of Allah (SWT), or are you really not sure, as you have not experienced � Islam? 

�Actually i dont see him running around asking people to worship him. He is a clever person though. It is rather common to name certain effects or laws after the person who found them or proposed them. Like "Bolzmann constant",  "Newtons laws", "Hubble constant" etc.  I dont know if he proposed the name.�

In relation to your last point�.. Did those �forces� exist, before the men who discovered them?

If the men who discovered them are clever, how clever is the Force that created them in the first place?

So who gives then the right to claim credit for a force, when they had no part in creating it?

Wasalaam

nadir

I have edited the colour of Deist�s quotes only, and not any of the words I wrote, Allah (SWT) knows why I have done this.  

sorry forgive my grammer, i have edited my quotes of Deist only, and not the words i have wrote, Allah (SWT) knows best.

deist wrote: What  i often have a problem is that often enough people want to "proove" their belief by making the very statements that show that their belief is not based on facts but on wishes and "intuition".

Why should I worry about the possible truth about my existence being "unimportant" when I know that all creations are important, not only me.

You mean when you "believe" that ...

Wrong not "when" all the time

nadir wrote:   I have already told you that I can scientifically prove what I claim (there is only One Ilah [God] � Allah), proof I have not shown you. I am though (through confidence in what I know) able to challenge you, because I know you are unable to prove that there is no God, whether your proof is scientific, or moral.

How can anyone disprove your proof when you don't lay them out, all you do is make claims and claiming you have proof.

Stop saying to people that they can't disprove you when you don't put your evidence of proof of your claims. If you have none them it is just a claim!

So you mention that you have sciencific proof of your claim, then show it.

I have approached you stating I have proof (of One Ilah), & yet you continue to deny my words (Islam, is the religion Of Allah, the One, & Only God, Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe), despite not having the tiniest amount of evidence saying otherwise. Hence please do not use these means to disagree (& disrespect Alwardah), when you, yourself are guiltier of what you state, than she.

So you state you have proof  -  of one God, so where is your proof that there is one God, if you don't bring anything across then is it not just a claim that you believe that there is one God or there is a God ?

WOW!  

nadir wrote: Angel, your comments make me very angry�..

I'm sitting here trying to think of something to say but don't know what to say, you have somewhat disturbed me and shocked at the things you say towards me.    but I'll try and say something.

I am unable to show you any proof (of the unity between the energy forces, & gravity [general relativity]), over the Internet, because not only does the explanation require �diagrams� to illustrate, but also in depth explanation, to overcome the false perceptions that have been implanted in peoples minds.

The internet, hasn't exactly stopped other people, but if you have trouble doing so, then I accept.

I have openly invited anyone to come to me, in person and challenge what I know, that�s why I have approached all the international embassies (& scientific journals) I mentioned previously. Not one person has done so�.. and yet you have the ignorant cheek to come and question me!!!!!

I have a right to question things and people.

I am sending this post directly as a complaint to Islamicity, as well as some of the embassies I have previously contacted��.

Why ??

What are the embassies going to do ?

I am disgusted with the way I have been treated by Muslim�s & non-Muslims alike, just because I have discovered something (and have the proof to back it up!) that questions their own version of reality.

I'm not exactly against that.

I haven't treated you badly, I don't think I have.

If this is how I am going to be treated, then you can take your selfish false world, and back off from me!!!!! You have made my life so unbearable, death is the most attractive thing to me�.. so if you refuse to challenge me, please come and kill me, because there is nothing else here for me.

How can I or anyone challenge you when I haven't got your proof/evidence to do so? 

All I have is your word your claim and that alone is not enough or nil to challenge you.

You want people to challenge so badly, and your invitation ignored that I think its starting to affect you because you should not have gotten angry over my post, I believe.

I haven't actually disproven you or approve of your findings which I do not know what they are. All I know is that you say you have found something, that is all I know from you! What am I suppose to do with that ?, for me its just a claim. 

You will find the doubt belongs to you, seen as though you have no proof!!!!!!!

What doubt? I'm neither here nor there with it.

How can you say that I have no proof ??

Have I made a claim? have I disagreed or agreed with you ?

Have I put something forth other than mentioning what you say here is just a claim, without your evidence ?

You can not even imagine my frustration with your ignorant, selfish, greed.

I don't know, perhaps I am but I doubt it.

Your frustration is with something else, namely that no one will challenge you.

Is this going to be my last correspondence, or I am finally going to receive a little respect!

Assalaamu alaikum

How can I explain something more complex than the forces of; electro magnetism, nuclear, atom glue, & gravity (general relativity), to people who know nothing of these forces?

How can I explain something more complex than the forces of; electro magnetism, nuclear, atom glue, & gravity (general relativity), to people who run & hide from me, because they are selfish, greedy, & manipulative, and wish to remain so?

How can I explain something more complex than the forces of; electro magnetism, nuclear, atom glue, & gravity (general relativity), to people who think they already (scientifically) know these forces, but do not (they only know the erroneous ways of the people they follow), as if they did, they would know they are One Force - Allah (SWT)?

Angel said: �What doubt?�

Does Allah (SWT) exist or not? Bring me proof, if you have no doubt!

Nausheen said: �He works on supercritical carbon dioxide.... have u got any idea?�

What is the motivation of this question? The science of �Supercritical� (carbon dioxide) comes under the category of the energy forces. Scientists are unable to unify these forces with gravity (general relativity).   

Nausheen said: �but pls dont give us threats. We care for you - so no jumping off from anywhere (u can try banji jumping, there is no harm in that).�

You continue to disrespect me!!!!! Please tell me where in my comments I have made any threat?

�You have made my life so unbearable, death is the most attractive thing to me�.. so if you refuse to challenge me, please come and kill me, because there is nothing else here for me.�

This statement (& most of the others) were directed toward the Saudi�s, Iranian�s, Chinese, & Russians (also the masons), who continue to ignore me. They have made my life a misery through their selfish greed, & haughty imperialist attitudes. I want them to come and kill me, because they can�t come & prove me wrong, and hence they have left me in limbo.

Through their denial of me, they illustrate their real motivation (ie they do not care for anyone except their selves).

So here I am, disrespected (& treated like an ignoramus) by people with secular values (& scientists alike), for challenging their false (scientific) perceptions�..

So here I am, disrespected (& treated like an ignoramus) by Muslim�s, who deem that I cannot possibly know anything unless I know Arabic (as well as other matters)�..

Please tell me where I am expected to find the motivation to like (or even talk to) any of these groups, when they treat me like this???????

I would like an answer from the chief of Islamicity!

nadir wrote:     A Muslim believes in the Unseen, hence needs not be perplexed like the scientists, who crave this knowledge for fame, & more importantly - �absolute power�.

Absolute power to do what? Cure diseases? Gee - what an evil bunch of people scientists are.

And as for "all scientists are only after the money", well that's a load of tripe to start with. Sure-  if you made such a statement about _companies_ like Pfizer or MonSanto, then sure, you and I are in total agreement. SOme companies are Evil.

But if you look at the years and years it take to get qualified in any sort of scientific field, the years of work and sweat and lost sleep and sacrifice it takes to earn qualifications and get the sort of job you want, then you will realised that the vast majority of people in science are only working for the good of others and in order to use their own talents the best way possible. Ask Nausheen, for example!

I have many friends who are in various fields of science who are studying for the Masters degree, or their PhDs or who already have their PhDs. They are, or are going to be, great people in their communities and I very much admire tham, but sure as hell I am not going to do the same - they work too hard and sacrifice so much (and besides, they are waaaay cleverer than I ;)

I find your assertions that most scientists are godless, evil, scary people quite bizarre. I have a friend who is a lecturer in aeronautical engineering, she also has a PhD in metalurgy (I think it's metalurgy). She goes to church every week, is on her church committee, she takes Sunday school classes and is a Big Fan of God. However, she thinks creationism is a load of twaddle and is, therefore, also a Big Fan of the Theory of Evolution.

I think it's quite understandable that the further some scientists get into their field, the closer they might feel to God. Why? the more they discover, the more they realise that the universe is a wonderous and amazing place, full of wonderous and amazing creatures and events.

There is NO reason why God and Science cannot co-exist and why they cannot complement each other.

Kim...   

nadir wrote:     I am unable to show you any proof (of the unity between the energy forces, & gravity [general relativity]), over the Internet, because not only does the explanation require �diagrams� to illustrate, but also in depth explanation, to overcome the false perceptions that have been implanted in peoples minds.

Some of here HAVE studied maths and physics and such - so please, send us an explanation, even if it's brief with bits left out (we can alwasy ask questions later). How can we defend ourselves from your anger when you have not even presented us with the things you accuse us of not believing?

The only thing we believe so far is that we don't know what you're talking about.

Kim... 

Anyway, I have no problem with the concept that science is just another way of revealing the existence of God. Science and what it reveals is so amazing, I can hardly see how anyone could think otherwise.

Sure - science has lead to bad things (atom bomb), but then so has religion (crusades). It's human nature - we always get stuff wrong and are blatantly stupid. Doesn't mean that science is wrong and God is dead. It just means people are idiots.

I believe that evolution is the best theory we have so far to explain why the earth is like it is and I believe that if there is a God, God has given us the ability to make our own choices. God can see where all our choices will lead us, but not much stuff (if any) is pre-destined. That would not be fair - how could God punish us for any of our choices if EVERYTHING was pre-destined? What would be the purpose of our existence if everything was predestined?

Kim...

nadir wrote: You approach me with a viewpoint that has only ever seen �one side of the coin� (ie I know from the way you discuss things you do not, or have not known/applied � Islam).

I would say that you definetly judge too fast :) 

I was raised with (the Christian version of) secular values, and yes I knew of morality, however I was to find out in time that the morality I knew, was built upon unsound foundations. I turned to Buddhism, which I studied for several years, and despite there been no mention of One God (One Creator, One Force - Controlling Existence) within the teachings, my meditations and the knowledge I perceived told me otherwise.

I have already told you that I can scientifically prove what I claim (there is only One Ilah [God] � Allah), proof I have not shown you.

Well a lot of peopole say a lot of things nadir ;)

I am though (through confidence in what I know) able to challenge you, because I know you are unable to prove that there is no God, whether your proof is scientific, or moral.

You will perhaps see the limits of your view when someone comes and tells you to disproove that there are TWO Gods.

You cant disproove that either. 

I say you pick on Sister Alwardah, because you question her belief (�Since you believe in what you want it actually doesnt matter for you if you can proove it . Actually one might even argue that it doesnt matter for any believer even if someone would bring forth evidence or even proof that the belief is wrong. I do not really have a problem with that.�)

I have approached you stating I have proof (of One Ilah), & yet you continue to deny my words (Islam, is the religion Of Allah, the One, & Only God, Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe), despite not having the tiniest amount of evidence saying otherwise. Hence please do not use these means to disagree (& disrespect Alwardah), when you, yourself are guiltier of what you state, than she.

And I didnt show any disrespect for Alwardah, nor is it required that YOU intervene on her behalf here.
Her statement stands and mine does too.

I am a person who knew not of Islam, however upon embracing Islam, & comparing (& applying) it�s Laws, to the laws I was previously aware of (applying), I can certify that Islam is Morally Superior to anything I have ever encompassed, I can even say � infallible (although I know you will not like me for saying so), obviously we as humans are not.

Are you able to say (after having applied the Laws of Islam to your life), Islam is not the Law of Allah (SWT), or are you really not sure, as you have not experienced � Islam?

In relation to your last point�.. Did those �forces� exist, before the men who discovered them?

If the men who discovered them are clever, how clever is the Force that created them in the first place?

So who gives then the right to claim credit for a force, when they had no part in creating it?

We give credit to people that do remarkable things or discover things.
The Bolzman constant was discovered by Bolzmann, so it was named Bolzman constant. I see no problem with that.
 

Peace
Deist

PS: An advice for you would be to read less "into" my texts and stick more to the words. My "intentions" are far less "dubious" than you seem to think.

Alwardah wrote: deist wrote: What  i often have a problem is that often enough people want to "proove" their belief by making the very statements that show that their belief is not based on facts but on wishes and "intuition".   Alhamdulillah (All Praises are to Allah) You have a problem with that, I don't.

So you believe a buddist when he "prooves" his religion by making statements that are not based on facts but rather on intuition ?

Al-Qur'an - Surah Adh-Dhariyat 51: 56   "I have created Jinn and men, that they may worship Me Only."   I don't need any more proof than that

deist wrote: So you believe a buddist when he "prooves" his religion by making statements that are not based on facts but rather on intuition ?

sori don't know much about Buddhism

I think we simply talk about different understandings of the word "proof". ;) Peace Deist

 you are correctto each his own

As Salamu Alaikum

Yes you and Kim are absolutely correct, I am wasting your time and mine actually everyone's time, because I have no proof except what I read in the Glorious Qur'an and believe without a shadow of doubt that the universe was created by a Supreme Creator Allah.

"And be not as those who divided and differed among themselves after the clear proofs had come to them. It is they for whom there is an awful torment. "  Surah Al-Imran 3: 105

What "clear proof" you may ask: The Glorious Qur'an and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam).

I don't have anything further to add.

Wa Alaikum Salam  

Alwardah wrote: As Salamu Alaikum   Yes you and Kim are absolutely correct, I am wasting your time and mine actually everyone's time, because I have no proof except what I read in the Glorious Qur'an and believe without a shadow of doubt that the universe was created by a Supreme Creator Allah.

Again i say that i have no problem if someone believes in something.
I only wake up when someone says something about "proofs" because i am allways interested in proofs and logical arguments.
Thats all.

Anyway

Peace
Deist

Hi Deist

I know that neither you nor Kim said or implied that I am wasting time but that is how I feel.

Basically you, more than anyone else knows that I cannot prove my claim, because it is part of the Unseen.

Darwin's theory of evolutions was formulated on what is seen and tangible. So yes you have plenty of proof to support your claim. So Insha Allah I think we agree on both points.

What I would be interested in getting proof regarding the soul, life and death from your evolution prospective. The Soul is something intangible part of the Unseen but I believe I have a soul, because if I had no soul I will not be typing this response.

Remember your argument is that we evolved, and were not created, so there is no Creator, thus no soul. What is the soul, where can I find it or see it? So how do u prove ur existence besides that fact that u are here alive today and dead tomorrow. I believe this brings us back to square one, we were created by a Supreme Creator Allah (God)

I would be interested to hear your comments.

Thanks

What I would be interested in getting proof regarding the soul, life and death from your evolution prospective. The Soul is something intangible part of the Unseen but I believe I have a soul, because if I had no soul I will not be typing this response.

Again here you make a mistake for there is no reason why a soul is needed to write a response. Since you cant even explain what a soul exactly is how then can you conclude that it hast to be existent to write something ?

See my point ?

Remember your argument is that we evolved, and were not created, so there is no Creator, thus no soul.

I dont see why evolution per se would rule out a God.

I dont see why evolution would rule out a "soul".

What is the soul, where can I find it or see it?

You already again assume that a soul has to exist. Yet you cant explain what it is yourself. Obviously you seem to think you "need" one but why you need it you cant explain.

So how do u prove ur existence besides that fact that u are here alive today and dead tomorrow.

And the fact that you are alive is not proof that you exist ?

Cognito ergo sum.

I think therefore i am.

What other proof do you want. Its absolutely conclusive.
I think your problem lies more in the point that existence alone is not enough for you. Perhaps you also want a "sense" of "purpose" in this existence. And that is given to you by your belief.

However these are two totally different things as i tried to say from the very start.

Thanks Deist for your comments.

The fact that I am alive is no proof that I exist. Intriguing concept.

I have no more comment on this subject.

Very educational I must add.

Thanks once again.

I don't see that evolution denies creation, or that science denies God.

When you create a meal then forget to put the leftovers in the fridge, does other life not evolve on the plate?  (ie: bacteria and general blue-green fuzzy stuff)  

Kim...

nadir wrote: �You have made my life so unbearable, death is the most attractive thing to me�.. so if you refuse to challenge me, please come and kill me, because there is nothing else here for me.� This statement (& most of the others) were directed toward the Saudi�s, Iranian�s, Chinese, & Russians (also the masons), who continue to ignore me. They have made my life a misery through their selfish greed, & haughty imperialist attitudes. I want them to come and kill me, because they can�t come & prove me wrong, and hence they have left me in limbo.   Through their denial of me, they illustrate their real motivation (ie they do not care for anyone except their selves).

Nadir, if your post were directed at other people, then direct it at them and not at me personally, "everything" in your post was directed at me, you addressed it to me with my name!, so it was at me. How was I suppose to take it any other way ?? And that you made a complaint to the CEO of islamicity about me! And that you were going to the embassies about me! I was confused as I didn't think I did anything wrong, nor denied you anything, nothing like this has happened to me before here.

If it wasn't directed at me, then it was so unfair of you to do so  , perhaps it was you that disrespected. Do you have any idea how I felt? I'm not even a scientists but I do have some knowledge. 

I think in future you should distiguish between the people you speak here at the boards and those outside of it. And relax.

Alwardah wrote: The fact that I am alive is no proof that I exist. Intriguing concept.

I think you misunderstood Deist's question.

nadir wrote: Assalaamu alaikum How can I explain something more complex than the forces of; electro magnetism, nuclear, atom glue, & gravity (general relativity), to people who know nothing of these forces? How can I explain something more complex than the forces of; electro magnetism, nuclear, atom glue, & gravity (general relativity), to people who run & hide from me, because they are selfish, greedy, & manipulative, and wish to remain so? How can I explain something more complex than the forces of; electro magnetism, nuclear, atom glue, & gravity (general relativity), to people who think they already (scientifically) know these forces, but do not (they only know the erroneous ways of the people they follow), as if they did, they would know they are One Force - Allah (SWT)?

Yes, that can be a bit of a problem.

I wonder how Einstein, Newton, Darwin, Gelillio and others overcame this problem of how to explain certain sciences ?

So if you have all your information there with you then the real problem is getting people to listen to you, and you getting angry everytime is not going to help you either.

If you really have (and I'm not saying that you don't) your information, diagrams and explanations of your proof, but cannot present it here on the internet therefore also the forum here (for whatever reason),  then present it in a way that you can, in the language that is best for you, put it in a journal or book and don't get side track whether people if they understand you or not or willing to listen to you or not, the main thing is that you have your information presented in some form.

(Anyway I have no idea what you have done so far so perhaps you have done this already)

And of another thing if someone doesn't understand you then its not that person's fault and you shouldn't get angry at them, yes it can be frustrating but do you have to attack them back ? And also if someone does understand you but disagrees with you then you shouldn't really get angry at them either.

Angel said: �What doubt?� Does Allah (SWT) exist or not? Bring me proof, if you have no doubt!

Do you really want me to answer that

Why should I bring my proof if you don't bring yours  YOU are the one claiming that there is evidence of God's existence, not I. And I am not even disprooving you either.  

Okay, lets say that I do have proof of God's existence, what then? and perhaps its not the same as your evidence, then what? you will still probably mention that I am wrong and not proof because my evidence is not the same as yours.

Ok what if I do have proof that God doesn't exist? then what ? what are you going to do?

This statement (& most of the others) were directed toward the Saudi�s, Iranian�s, Chinese, & Russians (also the masons), who continue to ignore me. They have made my life a misery through their selfish greed, & haughty imperialist attitudes. I want them to come and kill me, because they can�t come & prove me wrong, and hence they have left me in limbo.   Through their denial of me, they illustrate their real motivation (ie they do not care for anyone except their selves). So here I am, disrespected (& treated like an ignoramus) by people with secular values (& scientists alike), for challenging their false (scientific) perceptions�..   So here I am, disrespected (& treated like an ignoramus) by Muslim�s, who deem that I cannot possibly know anything unless I know Arabic (as well as other matters)�..

 

I think you need to make a distinction between the people you talk about and the people here at the boards. As I said earlier, your post was clearly stated towards me only!

 

Do you know something, it is not the job of scientists to disproove or approve of God's existence! There are scientists who believe in God's existence and there are also scientists who do not believe in the existence of God.

You believe in God's existence and you have evidence for it, can you not just be happy with that ?

If you are so intent on others in knowing, then publish a book  and any money you make can go back into your research or charity :-)

Why do you need to go through scientists and embassies themselves ? and put yourself through this misery that you have.

Please tell me where I am expected to find the motivation to like (or even talk to) any of these groups, when they treat me like this???????

 

Are you not asking too much of others ?

Do you think you are the only person who is rejected after rejection after rejection and lose motivation ?

I wonder how others who are rejected after rejection and after rejection, how they cope and keep motivated to keep going before they get that one person who won't reject them ?

I would like an answer from the chief of Islamicity!

 

And what is the chief of IC going to do ?

What do you expect from the chief?

I believe that the chief is in the same boat as the rest of us here at IC, that we cannot really challenge you without your evidence of your claim ?

 

There is nothing more to say really on the matter. 

 

-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Assalaamu alaikum

Kim

Just before I proceed, may you please take heed�..

You ask for the very meaning of life, remember this is brief and will not fully suffice!!!

I do though wish to honestly assist, hence please feel free to persist

Allah�s predestination dictates, the ink is already dry!

Please do not be confused,

& think that this means you having nothing to lose.

It is more a case of choice,

However do you know how to choose?

Allah (SWT) may give you a choice,

But think, on what premise do you choose?

In ignorance you still choose,

But unfortunately you may slip & still lose.

With wisdom you can really choose,

The straight path on which you won�t lose!

Sure, some are never shown the straight path,

Hence other actions, may save them from Allah�s wrath.

The Lord of the heavens is Oft-Forgiving,

He created the test for each, at the very beginning.

He will not let anyone lose,

Without offering them first, the chance to choose.

Hence the main point is to seek,

The Truth will come to those who are meek.

Assalaamu alaikum

O� Angel�� what a beautiful person you are.

My previous �tantrum� was (believe it or not) because I love you (& I so want you to believe in Allah, Glorified be the Most High).

Many of your comments were justified, & I would like use the attention (I drew toward you), to say to those I complained to, look at this fine example of a genuine & honest woman, if I ever saw a person who deserves to be Blessed, she is that person. Angel, may Allah (SWT) guide you, & shower you with Blessings of the greatest beauty (Insha Allah).

Yes I am very frustrated with these so-called experts, as they have not allowed me (through their lack of support) the real opportunity, to help people. I wished to illustrate to you how confident I am (in Allah�s existence), & to point out that �they� are unable to �touch me�, whether it be via knowledge, or physical might.

I am hopeful you will understand that the people you mentioned (ie Newton etc.), brought something that was purely scientific, what I have discovered is science with the moral purpose (ie One Ilah � Allah). I also hope you will realise that it is the people who doubt that God exists (& doubt the Day of Judgement) that require a proof�.. I have simply stated that if you doubt, I can show you proof!

I fear (doing wrong by) Allah (SWT), fear that is magnified due to the evidence He has allowed me to discover. I fear that if I showed this to someone who did not believe beforehand, & continued not to believe afterwards, a severe punishment would descend upon them.

Maybe the chief of IC will do nothing, but IC is now certainly aware that such information exists, I have a duty as a Muslim to share the knowledge bestowed upon me.

If I may please quote from the Holy Qur�an [Surah-12: Yusuf]

39.

Greetings Deist

Deist, it seems your philosophy accepts the notion that, there could be a God, & not just any old God (One Ilah � Allah). If this is a possibility, then surely you would be better served by trying to please God, rather than taking the gamble (despite not having proof). that He doesn�t exist, a gamble which may lead to eternal suffering in Hell!?

nadir

nadir wrote: Assalaamu alaikum O� Angel�� what a beautiful person you are. My previous �tantrum� was (believe it or not) because I love you (& I so want you to believe in Allah, Glorified be the Most High).   Many of your comments were justified, & I would like use the attention (I drew toward you), to say to those I complained to, look at this fine example of a genuine & honest woman, if I ever saw a person who deserves to be Blessed, she is that person. Angel, may Allah (SWT) guide you, & shower you with Blessings of the greatest beauty (Insha Allah).

I guess, ummmm.....Thank you

Yes I am very frustrated with these so-called experts, as they have not allowed me (through their lack of support) the real opportunity, to help people. I wished to illustrate to you how confident I am (in Allah�s existence), & to point out that �they� are unable to �touch me�, whether it be via knowledge, or physical might.

I'm not sure why you need those people (the experts you have called) to help people ?

And why should it be a battle because you believe in God (Allah) and they may not, which they may do believe in God but its not your conclusion or from you conclusion/result.

I am hopeful you will understand that the people you mentioned (ie Newton etc.), brought something that was purely scientific, what I have discovered is science with the moral purpose (ie One Ilah � Allah). I also hope you will realise that it is the people who doubt that God exists (& doubt the Day of Judgement) that require a proof�.. I have simply stated that if you doubt, I can show you proof!

Why does science have to have a moral purpose ?

Why does science have to have a God (in it) ?

I do realise that people who doubt that God exist require proof but I believe that those who do believe need proof - why else are they believing in the existence of God ?  

You believe in God, because you have proof, if you didn't, would you still believe then ?

I get the feeling those experts of yours may do believe in God but do not exactly believe in your results your evidence. (I am just guessing here I maybe wrong) 

I fear (doing wrong by) Allah (SWT), fear that is magnified due to the evidence He has allowed me to discover. I fear that if I showed this to someone who did not believe beforehand, & continued not to believe afterwards, a severe punishment would descend upon them.

I don't know, maybe that's the price you need to pay.

But you are holding back because of your own fear, whether right or wrong, its up to the individual to believe or not.  

Maybe the chief of IC will do nothing, but IC is now certainly aware that such information exists, I have a duty as a Muslim to share the knowledge bestowed upon me.

I'm still not sure what the Chief will do  

But anyway if you have a duty as a muslim to share the knowledge bestowed upon you then I think you need to overcome that fear of yours 

Nadir, I read your PM and I accept your apology, but I believe I didn't exactly asked for help  all I did was mentioned about the issues of 'claims' and that's when you jumped down my throat which as I said was unfair to do so address to me when its meant for others in that post to me.

The only advice I have is to distingush between those you speak of, address to, it will make life little easier  

I am with Deist that its not whether one believes in God or not and to try make one believe but what is out there, the evidence - proof or disproof. And I am not sure what this has to with Creation vs Chance

Nadir, since you came in with your talk perhaps you can tell us what your talk has to do with creation vs chance ? I think somewhere along the line it got missed as nearly all has to do with that you have evidence for the existence of God

Assalaamu alaikum

Firstly may I apologise for my error of leaving out a couple of sentences from the �No chance, it�s the Almighty� piece I posted above. I realised my mistake (in transferring/typing the piece over) this morning, I have corrected it now, & it is hence complete.

Angel, I fear you have missed the point�..

�Why does science have to have moral purpose?�

�Why does science have to have God (in it)?�

The aim of science is to try & perceive the secrets of existence. If the very purpose of existence is to Worship Allah (SWT), & to live in accordance with His Moral Law (Islam), then God & Morality play an essential role not only within science, but also in life as a whole.

�And I (Allah) created not the Jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)� [Surah 52, Verse 56]

�You believe in God, because you have proof, if you didn't, would you still believe then?�

Initially I perceived the nirvana of morality, sound belief in a Creator of the Heavens & the Earth came later. Although admittedly I was unsure how to live my life in accordance with true morality (Islam), hence evidence of a supreme being served to strengthen my faith.

�I get the feeling those experts of yours may do believe in God but do not exactly believe in your results your evidence. (I am just guessing here I maybe wrong)�

If that is the case, aren�t they the foolish ones, seen as though they have not seen my evidence/results. If they have already made a conclusion, does that mean they profess to know the Unseen?

�I don�t know, maybe that�s the price you need to pay. But you are holding back because of your own fear, whether right or wrong, it�s up to the individual to believe or not.�

True, but I really need to discuss (important) issues with people of wisdom, before I start spurting out knowledge that may help those, I do not wish to help.

�I am with Deist that its not whether one believes in God or not and to try make one believe but what is out there, the evidence - proof or disproof. And I am not sure what this has to with Creation vs Chance�

�Nadir, since you came in with your talk perhaps you can tell us what your talk has to do with creation vs chance? I think somewhere along the line it got missed as nearly all has to do with that you have evidence for the existence of God�

I am not sure what you mean by �I am with Deist..�� Does that mean you support Darwin�s theory of evolution? If I may enlighten you with regards to evolution, and REAL chance/choice�

If you were to believe Darwin�s theory, then the thing we call LOVE, is simply a genetically inherited trait, which has been passed down through the genes, as it enhances the chance of human survival. Hence in Darwinian terms there is less choice than in Creationism, as it least in Creationism - LOVE - is a real emotion, which we are free to give (& accept) to whom we please. Darwin�s theory suggests that, LOVE is merely genetic instinct, of which we have no control!

If I may share a hadith with you (may not be the best English � Arabic translation of the hadith, but the main point is still clear)�..

Sayyidina Huzayfah (RA) has said that the Messeger of Allah (SWT) said: �As for the things that Dajjal will have, I know them better than Dajjal. He will have two rivers, one of which will seem to the onlooker as a blazing fire and the other white water. Any of you who encounters it, should shut (his/her) eyes and drink water from the river which seems to be a fire, because (in fact) it is cool water, and he/she should keep himself away from the other river because it is torment�. � 

With regards to your statement: ��that its not whether one believes in God or not, & to try and make one believe, but it�s what is out there, the evidence � proof or disproof.�

Again I stress the I have the scientific proof, although If I may also share with you a passage from the Holy Qur�an, with regards to - trying to make people believe�..

�And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So will you then compel mankind, until they become believers.� [Surah 10, Verse 99]

Wasalaam

nadir

nadir wrote: The aim of science is to try & perceive the secrets of existence.

As much as I believe that - I believe it (science) is much more than that.

And I've come to know that its not the scientists job to prove or disprove God.

There are scientists who believe in God's existence and there are scientists that don't.

I don't believe I missunderstood when I posed those 2 questions of mine. I don't believe science is there to prove morality or not, partly why I asked why does science have to have moral purpose ?

�Why does science have to have God (in it)?�

If the very purpose of existence is to Worship Allah (SWT), & to live in accordance with His Moral Law (Islam), then God & Morality play an essential role not only within science, but also in life as a whole.

But Nadir, you are coming from Islam! Not everyone believes the purpose of existence is to worship Allah/God. And not everyone believes in Islam whether they are scientists or not. (Not that should shut the door on some knowledge islam may offer).

�You believe in God, because you have proof, if you didn't, would you still believe then?�

Initially I perceived the nirvana of morality, sound belief in a Creator of the Heavens & the Earth came later. Although admittedly I was unsure how to live my life in accordance with true morality (Islam), hence evidence of a supreme being served to strengthen my faith.

See I was right your evidence is Islam ;-)))

Many people don't need islam for proof of God.

And I certainly believe that islam does not equal morality, others have morality too. 

�I get the feeling those experts of yours may do believe in God but do not exactly believe in your results your evidence. (I am just guessing here I maybe wrong)�

If that is the case, aren�t they the foolish ones, seen as though they have not seen my evidence/results. If they have already made a conclusion, does that mean they profess to know the Unseen?

{{You do realise this is all presumptions of us here ;-) so nothing is probably truth?}}

Why are they foolish because they have different result/evidence to believe in God from you ?

"If they have already made a conclusion, does that mean they profess to know the Unseen?"

No of course not, as I said earlier its not their job. Believing in God is somewhat a personally issue. I believe in God and have a few things that go with it but it does not make me know the unseen.

Do you profess to know the unseen ?

�I am with Deist that its not whether one believes in God or not and to try make one believe but what is out there, the evidence - proof or disproof. And I am not sure what this has to with Creation vs Chance�

�Nadir, since you came in with your talk perhaps you can tell us what your talk has to do with creation vs chance? I think somewhere along the line it got missed as nearly all has to do with that you have evidence for the existence of God�

I am not sure what you mean by �I am with Deist..�� Does that mean you support Darwin�s theory of evolution?

Where did Darwin come into this

What I mean is that I agree with Deist when he mentioned its not whether one believes or not in God - even though he spoke about himself. I'm not sure what Darwin has to do with it?

With regards to your statement: ��that its not whether one believes in God or not, & to try and make one believe, but it�s what is out there, the evidence � proof or disproof.� Again I stress the I have the scientific proof, although If I may also share with you a passage from the Holy Qur�an, with regards to - trying to make people believe�..

ok, you have proof, all those that believe in God have some kind of proof, scientific or other ;-)

And those that do not believe in God have some kind of proof also ;-)

�And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So will you then compel mankind, until they become believers.� [Surah 10, Verse 99]

 

I don't believe in it.

But anyway isn't there a verse that mentions Allah guides whom he wills, so really even if you share your knowledge, isn't it up to Allah?

 

I still stand by my statement thou. 

 

Again repeat :

And I am not sure what this has to with Creation vs Chance�

Nadir, since you came in with your talk perhaps you can tell us what your talk has to do with creation vs chance? I think somewhere along the line it got missed as nearly all has to do with that you have evidence for the existence of God

-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

nadir wrote: If I may enlighten you with regards to evolution, and REAL chance/choice� If you were to believe Darwin�s theory, then the thing we call LOVE, is simply a genetically inherited trait, which has been passed down through the genes, as it enhances the chance of human survival. Hence in Darwinian terms there is less choice than in Creationism, as it least in Creationism - LOVE - is a real emotion, which we are free to give (& accept) to whom we please. Darwin�s theory suggests that, LOVE is merely genetic instinct, of which we have no control!

This perhaps requires a new thread.

Greetings Angel

Angel stated: �I don't believe in it.

But anyway isn't there a verse that mentions Allah guides whom he wills, so really even if you share your knowledge, isn't it up to Allah?�

�Verily, you (O Muhammad [SAW]) guide not whom you like, but Allah (SWT) guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.� [Holy Qur�an: Surah 28; Verse 56]

�And We have sent to you (O Muhammad [SAW]) Ruh (a revelation, and a mercy) of Our Command. You knew not what is the Book, nor what is Faith. But We have made it (this Qur�an) a light wherewith We guide whosoever of Our slaves We will. And verily, you (O Muhammad [SAW]) are indeed guiding to the Straight Path (ie Allah�s religion of Islamic Monotheism).�  [Holy Qur�an: Surah 42; Verse 52]

Angel stated: �See I was right your evidence is Islam ;-)))�

�Many people don't need islam for proof of God.�

�And I certainly believe that islam does not equal morality, others have morality too.�

nadir wrote: My perception of the nirvana of morality, & the scientific evidence I discovered (of One Ilah � Allah), came to me before I embraced Islam, & before I knew of the (superior) morality of Islam.

Ok

With regards to the other issues you mention, I am afraid you have pushed me to the point where - I wish to part company (with you), as I feel I am no longer able to talk with you (I feel like I�m wasting my time), unless you say�..

 

If you want to leave, I can't stop you but No, you're not wasting your time.

Greetings Angel,

I just wanted to say that I hold nothing against you�

It seems I am the wrong person to be answering your (previous) questions (in this thread), if you still require an answer(s), I suggest you seek the advice of someone whom God has favoured�..

Peace be upon you, Angel

If I may humbly add�..

I did not wish to discuss the science that I have done (in this forum), before I had discussed it with someone in a better position than I (with regards to resources [religiously & worldly], & the stability they bring). Unfortunately people were either scientifically unawares, or completely ignored me (as was the case in the emails I sent).

I can answer science questions for you�..

�but because I don�t feel like the knowledge belongs to me (I do not want to glorify myself), I do not ask you for a wage (ie write a book claiming stardom, & then charge you). However this has left me with nothing worldly, which in turn leads to a kind of mental torture, a result of the poverty & loneliness.

This is not a call for your sympathy, rather an explanation of why I do not deem myself (currently) in a position to continue with these discussions. I may have to �forget� I know anything (religiously & scientifically), & start non-skilled job, so as to free myself from my current predicament. However I could have done this from the very beginning, & I would not have needed an Islamic community to do so��. hence I seek that community & its purpose?

�Peace be upon you, & the Mercy & Blessings of Allah      

Nadir, Ok

Don't worry, we all have our limits

O sweet Angel, unto you I do return

Grace me with your presence, for it is a time I do not wish to spurn

Angel wrote: As much as I believe that - I believe it (science) is much more than that. And I've come to know that its not the scientists job to prove or disprove God. There are scientists who believe in God's existence and there are scientists that don't. I don't believe I missunderstood when I posed those 2 questions of mine. I don't believe science is there to prove morality or not, partly why I asked why does science have to have moral purpose ?   �Why does science have to have God (in it)?�

O sweet Angel, softly whisper in my ear, what is the purpose of this science, of which I hear?

Angel wrote: But Nadir, you are coming from Islam! Not everyone believes the purpose of existence is to worship Allah/God. And not everyone believes in Islam whether they are scientists or not. (Not that should shut the door on some knowledge islam may offer).

OK, now as midway, on a level plane we stand�

�(Not that should shut the door on some knowledge Islam may offer)�

If you are attracted to �some� of the knowledge Islam offers, will you please share with me your � �some not�?

Angel wrote: {{You do realise this is all presumptions of us here ;-) so nothing is probably truth?}} Why are they foolish because they have different result/evidence to believe in God from you ? "If they have already made a conclusion, does that mean they profess to know the Unseen?" No of course not, as I said earlier its not their job. Believing in God is somewhat a personally issue. I believe in God and have a few things that go with it but it does not make me know the unseen. Do you profess to know the unseen ?

I know I am not wasting my time with you! And I am sure you could show me a thing or two about God & Luuuuve!!!!! heee heee

 

Does the one who seeks to unravel a mystery, know what they will discover?

Angel wrote: Where did Darwin come into this What I mean is that I agree with Deist when he mentioned its not whether one believes or not in God - even though he spoke about himself. I'm not sure what Darwin has to do with it?

Darwin�s theory of evolution is one of the foundations supporting atheistic (ie Chance as a pose to Creation) scientific opinions, hence the reason I mentioned it/him.

 

Angel wrote: Again repeat : And I am not sure what this has to with Creation vs Chance� Nadir, since you came in with your talk perhaps you can tell us what your talk has to do with creation vs chance? I think somewhere along the line it got missed as nearly all has to do with that you have evidence for the existence of God

I mentioned the science I know of, in this debate, because it supports the Creationist side of the argument. Sorry I have been �hard-work�, true wisdom/knowledge will have the effect of humbling, as a pose to making one haughty.        

Angel wrote: nadir wrote: If I may enlighten you with regards to evolution, and REAL chance/choice� If you were to believe Darwin�s theory, then the thing we call LOVE, is simply a genetically inherited trait, which has been passed down through the genes, as it enhances the chance of human survival. Hence in Darwinian terms there is less choice than in Creationism, as it least in Creationism - LOVE - is a real emotion, which we are free to give (& accept) to whom we please. Darwin�s theory suggests that, LOVE is merely genetic instinct, of which we have no control!   This perhaps requires a new thread.

From my own personal experience�

Within the Chance side of the debate, I (as an emotional entity) am incapacitated�

This is because �I� am merely a product of genetic inheritance. From here, this thing I know of as Love, is a predetermined trait! Hence I am (genetically) restricted in how much it/I can grow & achieve. (From experience) I (personally) have no hope here�

Within the Creationist side of the debate, I am free�

God has promised that, if I do good works & grow closer to Him, the possibilities are endless. From here, I can take my Love (a real emotion) & improve, beautify and expand it immeasurably. I have hope here� hope that comforts my soul

alsaam-u aalaikum:

i wonder, if there is such a thing, if evolution could possible be gods work, maybe thats how he delivered adam and hawa? through the prossess of evolution, like a baby going through its stages of birth, man wouldn't carry the same kind of soul that is in adam, more like that of any animal. when the moment was right he sent adam and hawas' souls to them. Allahs' religion is not always straight forward, sometimes meanings are in a literal 2nd or 3rd dimension, so when its said that adam and hawa were sent to earth does it have to mean that he picked them up and put them in their mature form on earth....i'm sure if he wanted to he could but alllah knows best.

these are some ideas i've been toying with....any comment? 

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim

lionslayer wrote: alsaam-u aalaikum: i wonder, if there is such a thing, if evolution could possible be gods work, maybe thats how he delivered adam and hawa? through the prossess of evolution, like a baby going through its stages of birth, man wouldn't carry the same kind of soul that is in adam, more like that of any animal. when the moment was right he sent adam and hawas' souls to them. Allahs' religion is not always straight forward, sometimes meanings are in a literal 2nd or 3rd dimension, so when its said that adam and hawa were sent to earth does it have to mean that he picked them up and put them in their mature form on earth....i'm sure if he wanted to he could but alllah knows best. these are some ideas i've been toying with....any comment?

Walaikum assalam wa rahmatullah,

Indeed allah knows best how He created Adam and Eve. To help the generation of adam understand the process, He revealed it in the Quran.

The creation of Adam and Eve, for a muslim is, as it has been mentioned in their holy book. For more information please refer it.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

As'Salaamu Alaikum and God's Blessings to non-Muslims here,

As sister Nausheen intelligently mentions the perfect reference is Quran, but it also helps studying the various sciences as well (math, science, philosophy, physics etc) to get a well rounded view as well on this subject I mean. I believe the issue here is coming to grips with Creation Vs Chance obviously, but it shouldn't be an issue here for believers. God says in the Qur'an  "this (creation) was not created in vain." that should sum it up. Because some of you think I have a big motuh I won't comment  on more on this but this should be sufficient

http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=23295 - http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=232 95 ), there is a chapter on chance & God. It will answer and raise many questions.

Tufail

Well, I'm not sure if you are still here or not, if you are here goes

midway wrote:   O sweet Angel, unto you I do return

and same here, apologies for taking soooooooo long

midway wrote: Angel wrote: As much as I believe that - I believe it (science) is much more than that. And I've come to know that its not the scientists job to prove or disprove God. There are scientists who believe in God's existence and there are scientists that don't. I don't believe I missunderstood when I posed those 2 questions of mine. I don't believe science is there to prove morality or not, partly why I asked why does science have to have moral purpose ?   �Why does science have to have God (in it)?� O sweet Angel, softly whisper in my ear, what is the purpose of this science, of which I hear?

As finely poetic that sounded  I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Do you think you can answer my questions ?

midway wrote: Angel wrote: But Nadir, you are coming from Islam! Not everyone believes the purpose of existence is to worship Allah/God. And not everyone believes in Islam whether they are scientists or not. (Not that should shut the door on some knowledge islam may offer).   OK, now as midway, on a level plane we stand�

ok but I believe its not midway anymore

�(Not that should shut the door on some knowledge Islam may offer)� If you are attracted to �some� of the knowledge Islam offers, will you please share with me your � �some not�?

I wasn't talking specifically about myself here.

midway wrote: Angel wrote: {{You do realise this is all presumptions of us here ;-) so nothing is probably truth?}} Why are they foolish because they have different result/evidence to believe in God from you ? "If they have already made a conclusion, does that mean they profess to know the Unseen?" No of course not, as I said earlier its not their job. Believing in God is somewhat a personally issue. I believe in God and have a few things that go with it but it does not make me know the unseen. Do you profess to know the unseen ? I know I am not wasting my time with you! And I am sure you could show me a thing or two about God & Luuuuve!!!!! heee heee

 

 maybe

 

Does the one who seeks to unravel a mystery, know what they will discover?

 

Why do you answer my questions with a question ? (lol, I just did the very thing you do to me)

midway wrote: Angel wrote: Where did Darwin come into this What I mean is that I agree with Deist when he mentioned its not whether one believes or not in God - even though he spoke about himself. I'm not sure what Darwin has to do with it?   Darwin�s theory of evolution is one of the foundations supporting atheistic (ie Chance as a pose to Creation) scientific opinions, hence the reason I mentioned it/him.

 

o.k, but the thoery of evolution can be a foundation/s for supporting theistics, afterall Darwin himself was a believer in religion and God.

 

midway wrote: Angel wrote: Again repeat : And I am not sure what this has to with Creation vs Chance� Nadir, since you came in with your talk perhaps you can tell us what your talk has to do with creation vs chance? I think somewhere along the line it got missed as nearly all has to do with that you have evidence for the existence of God   I mentioned the science I know of, in this debate, because it supports the Creationist side of the argument. Sorry I have been �hard-work�, true wisdom/knowledge will have the effect of humbling, as a pose to making one haughty.

 

If I remember correctly, you haven't exactly explained your argument / put forth, just that you have evidence for.        

 

midway wrote: Angel wrote: nadir wrote: If I may enlighten you with regards to evolution, and REAL chance/choice� If you were to believe Darwin�s theory, then the thing we call LOVE, is simply a genetically inherited trait, which has been passed down through the genes, as it enhances the chance of human survival. Hence in Darwinian terms there is less choice than in Creationism, as it least in Creationism - LOVE - is a real emotion, which we are free to give (& accept) to whom we please. Darwin�s theory suggests that, LOVE is merely genetic instinct, of which we have no control!   This perhaps requires a new thread.   From my own personal experience� Within the Chance side of the debate, I (as an emotional entity) am incapacitated� This is because �I� am merely a product of genetic inheritance. From here, this thing I know of as Love, is a predetermined trait! Hence I am (genetically) restricted in how much it/I can grow & achieve. (From experience) I (personally) have no hope here� Within the Creationist side of the debate, I am free� God has promised that, if I do good works & grow closer to Him, the possibilities are endless. From here, I can take my Love (a real emotion) & improve, beautify and expand it immeasurably. I have hope here� hope that comforts my soul

 

As said this bit requires another thread.

I don't exactly agree with points you mention. All I say is this, Love is more than emotion, It is a state of being. All good comes from love, from the act of love.

 

 

and lastly....  

 

Where does it say that Darwin's theory is perfect ?

Where does it say that Darwin's theory is the sole theory of life on/in this universe? /evolution ?

 

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

http://www.atheistnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=4207&start=0 - http://www.atheistnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=4207&start =0

Where is your evidence of a Deity? That is the only relevant question.

All I asked is give me some (empirical) proof of your deity or any deity?

Atheists have nothing to defend (literally). So why just not give us one piece, one tiny scrap, of hard and empirical evidence that your god exists?

May be i am listening too much Bob Marley....

http://www.bobmarley.com/songs/ram/survival.ram">

Bob Marley

How can you be sitting there 
Telling me that you care
That you care
When everytime I look around
The people suffer in suffering
In everyway.  In everywhere

Na-na-na-na-na
We're the survivors; yes, the black survival

I tell you what
Some people got everything
Some poeple got nothing
Some people got hopes and dreams
Some people got ways and means

Na-na-na-na-na
We're the survivors; yes, the black survival
Yes we're the survivors like
Daniel out of the lions' den, survivors, survivors

So my brethren, my sisthren
Which way will we choose
We better hurry, oh hurry woe now
'Cause we got no time to lose

Some people got facts and claims
Some peole got pride and shame
Some people got the plots and schemes
Some people got no aim it seems

Na-na-na-na-na
We're the survivors; yes, the black survival
We're the survivors; yes, the black survival
We're the survivors like shadrach, meshach and abednego
Thrown in the fire but never get burn

So my brethren, my sisthren
The preaching and talking is done
We gotta live up woe now, woe now
'Cause the father's time has come
Some people put the best outside
Some people keep the best inside
Some people can't stand up strong
Some people won't wait for long

Na-na-na-na-na
We're the survivors; a black survival
In this age of technological inhumanity
We're the survivors black survival
Scientific atrocity, we're the survivors
Atomic mis-philosophy, we're the survivors
Nuclear mis-energy
It's a world that forces lifelong insecurity
All together now we're the survivors
Yes, the black survival
A good man is never honoured in his own country, black survival
Nothing change, nothing strange
Nothing change, nothing strange
We got to survive, we've got to survive
But to live as one equal in the eyes of the almighty