I'd like to discuss this idea.......

It's quite interesting that many advocates who are against the war want the U.S out and many advocates for the war want the U.S to finish. But more a fair question to ask is as of now what if America left Iraq and Afghanistan? What would happen?

Bismillah

It would be fare to answer that it is none of American business to contemplate what will happen if America left and let the Iraqis and Afghans deal with their situation and request help from whoever they deem to be most appropriate and necessary.

It would also be good to charge America for the destruction and chaos it has brought to the country and region as a whole... Oh, and they could have Saddam as a take-away memorabilia.

Israfil,

The Asians have always lived with their own bad governments and would prefer to live still with their bad governments instead of having foreign forces of good governments carrying out destruction and killing in their lands in the name of promoting democracy.

I believe that the US, the UK and Nato have entered the biggest quagmire of History. All of us know the Afghanis well. The Russians lived there for ten years and the West has already been there for five. The Russians had warned the US not to go in Afghanistan.

That is my view, dear brother. In my view, with the "best of intentions", both Iraq and Afghanistan are failures and would remain so.

BMZ

It is none of the American business to remain in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN. Let the population there decide what they want !!

Kashif

You know, I agree with Mockba, Bmz and Kash, it is upto to the local people/government. It is obviously that the government wants america and others' help, and there are local people who are glad to have the help to. So in one sense I see from us that shouting or telling the americans to get out is a bit useless, at less from those afar.

Aparently there is a big US embrassy being built the biggest so far, I think I posted an article awhile ago about if not then its at the Pond.

When I see people saying that the US should leave, I always pose the view, What about those that want the help and security of others?

MOCKBA,

From you: "It would also be good to charge America for the destruction and chaos it has brought to the country and region as a whole... Oh, and they could have Saddam as a take-away memorabilia."

Exactly and likewise the cost of rebuilding Lebanon should be charged to Israel and come from the coffers of Israel. Why should others pay?

Best Regards

BMZ

To this day we hear people talk about how we left Afghanistan in a mess and how we created the situation for OBL to grow into what he has so why in the world should we take that chance again? We could cut all ties to the middle east and we would still be blamed for the problems. I started to notice that no one in the middle east wants to accept responsibility for thier own actions. I would guess that the terrorists in Iraq has killed more civilians than the US since they actually target the local Iraq's who are trying to make the best of themselves by getting jobs and such but since nutjob with a bomb thinks they should not be working for the current government that they deserve to die. Of course no one seems to ever talk about that part of the war.

Lots of info on this BBC Page:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5313376.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5313376.stm

BMZ

To the people who support occupation:

Aren't you GLAD the British and the FRENCH pulled out after the Revolutionary war?

Don't you just HATE it when someone tries to shove their unwanted opinions DOWN YOUR THROAT?

Think about it......

Ok so both of you side stepped the question. Why should America leave when we left Afghanistan in a mess and it came back to bite us? Hanan anything to add other than your own assumptions about me? Why is it that I have to be a Bush supporter just because I asked that question? Why is it that you can't ever answer a question with a simple answer that doesn't go into "you love bush" arguments?

Maryah wrote: To the people who support occupation: Aren't you GLAD the British and the FRENCH pulled out after the Revolutionary war? Don't you just HATE it when someone tries to shove their unwanted opinions DOWN YOUR THROAT? Think about it......

In case you didn't know the British lost the war and that is why they pulled out. Otherwise I think the war would of kept on going.

Bismillah

Brother Israfil, thanks for picking me from among sitting on the respondents' bench. Personally, I try not to think of the lesser evils. Why do we need to choose between two poisons? In my limited international exposure and brief business experience, I managed to observe how things are run and who benefits most. Unlike early days, there are less theories and conspiracies in my head. There is more of perception of reality and personal experience� Some of the very conspiracy theories I used to mock at eventually came out to be true leaving others laughing last but me�

Frankly, whether America leaves Iraq or doesn�t leave Iraq does not make much difference to me� The British left Malaya because it could by then dance to the tune of the British system on its own and without assistance of the master. The same is with Gulf�

Let's be very straight, the main cause of the trouble is oil and control over vital natural resources� Democracy, freedom, education, love, peace, sandy beaches and rock'n'roll is utter puff. Unfortunately, many sincere and patriotic people believe that America has an obligation to save the world, often due to their own naivete or treacherous betrayal craft of their leaders. And �leaders�, in most of today�s world, have become synonymous with �corrupt�� only that some wear suit and tie, others military uniform and yet others tribal robes.

The �What iffs� will last forever� consider this:

Imagine China carried out a series of pre-emptive attacks on the USA (for making strong offensive remarks and a couple of �staged� terrorist attacks and murders of its nationals within and outside of the United States) and dislocated her troops in order to save US people as well as their own from coming horror of capitalism, imperialism and bloodsucking corporate evil giants. Imagine it would cripple US infrastructure, contaminate water resources, murder hundreds of thousands of people and throw the country a couple of decades if not a century behind. Later, Chinese media with fabricated concern, would portray Americans as uncontrollable hungry thirsty crowd lost in the ruins and not knowing what to do and where to go next, killing each other for a handful of potato chips, living in caves and burrows in fear of further attacks. To ease their state, the government of China would then appoint a pro-Communist Chinese-American (educated and groomed in Socialist Studies at Peking University) and his like as the temporary government of the United Socialist America, the new USA. As a token of goodwill, the Government of China would send their construction and engineering companies, a million of acupuncture specialists, a million of communist theory teachers, few millions of military consultants, full container loads of Chinese traditional medicinal herbs, tons of rice, Mao-styled shirts and caps, flags, badges, uniforms, chop sticks, instant noodles, road signs in Chinese... to rebuild the nation and bring up the new generation of liberated loan-free Americans... Any minor resistance to the new governing system would be a mere "birth pangs of the new America".

Sounds insane, doesn't it? But based on a true story... if you do not refuse to see it. 

If a strong majority were to make an attempt to topple the House of Saud, to end tyranny and dissolute monarchy, and replace it with organized Islamic system of governance, America would not likely encourage such liberation rather send troops to eradicate the uprising and shield the king. Why? If it is due to the higher risk of having another 9/11 then it should just kill everyone in fear that they may one day attack, rob, or even create unwanted competition...

The fact that America does not want to leave Iraq because it fears that it may become worse is yet another symptom of a major national paranoia... and those suffering from such condition are strongly recommended by doctors not to drive a car... not to mention of leading the world to salvation...

MOCKBA your scenario is moving and convincing and perhaps is possible, but as you say ultimately the purpose of America is to get oil and its resources right? I just like to think that "What if right now" what if America left? What would happen to the countries? Many say that it doesn't matter and some use past histories for catch 22's, but I am merely contemplating the thought. America is not the savior of anyone and frankly if it were up to me I'd let those countries destroy themselves as they were doing anyway. I'd focus on domestic terrorism here in America. But I'm biased though. The countries I think need the most help is India (because of its AIDS epidemic and the issue with women) and of course Africa. But as many of you say (as well as me) there is no benefit to either country for America that is why we are not there.

On can look at a total pullout in Iraq on two fronts...

The key is really what do the Iraqi people want.  Its easy for those of us sitting here with our computers in the US (yes, even Hanan is in the US), Russia, Austrailia and Singapore to try to determine what the Iraqis want....but its really up to them.

I think there needs to be an unconditional pullout of Iraq with the continuence of Humanitarian Aid through the Red Cross/Crescent and the United Nations.

The current Iraqi government is artifically being upheld only by our troops.

When we pull out it will be chaos and anarchy.....the two sides will engage in a bloody civil war and the strongest will prevail.  Thousands more will die and more tears will be shed. 

But I honestly believe these people will die no matter whether we stay or go....as we stay, we offer the insurgents (or freedom fighters depending on who's taking) an excuse to blow up market places and mosques.  If we leave, they will no longer have the Americans as an excuse and the Iraqi people will be free to combat this without looking like they are supporting the Americans. 

Saddam used fear and genocide to keep these people in an artificial peace.  In the LONG run, it will be best to let them fight it out themselves.  Its their fight, not ours.  They need to forge their destiny.

It will come back to haunt us Ops, nothing can stop that now.  We built up the Taliban, we built bases in their Holyland, we have a history of playing with the world's governments.  Bush has not made one real success in his war on Terrorism.  If anything, he's caused more sympathy towards the terrorists, more youth to be vulnerable to the ravings of madmen and more people willing to justify their actions as defensive.

The US will see more 9/11s.  We have only to wait and nothing that has been done diverted that or will divert that.  You cannot fight a war against a tactic.  You cannot fight a war with something that is intangible. 

We did not "win" the Cold War.  The Communist governments eventually lose the war for themselves.  The ideal doesn't work and eventually its cast aside by the people.  If left alone, this strain of men seeking to twist a faith for their own desires will be cast aside by the others.  However, declaring war on the whole only prolongs this process.  We will not win.  Only time will defeat these groups.

What we need to do is step back and give the people caught in the middle time to breath and think for themselves.  Right now they can't do that because the two sides are trying to shout over each other and tell them what to think.

Bush has created more terrorists and radicals than were there before he started....the man is completely out of touch with reality.  I cannot wait for the 2008 elections. 

Ok guys I understand what you are saying but I still have to stress that we played the Go it alone card before and it has come back to bite us big time so why in the world do it again?

I look at it like WWI we left hitler in office and we ended up with WWII, we cut ties to Japan and they bombed Pearl Harbor, we up and left Afghanistan and we ended up with the Taliban and OBL. Why do people really think that ignoring a problem will make it go away somehow? I have listed just three example of where we up and left it or decided not to get involved and it was some of the worst losses America has ever suffered so why do it again? Can anyone, since Hanan has once again ignored my questions, please post some real reasons to not get involved. I even read one post above where I was told "we created the taliban" well that is exactly what I am talking about yet so many on this board will not look to history and see that pulling out has been tried before and it failed.

America is always told to mind her own business yet you all support other muslims from other countries that go and fight in other countries other than thier own so why the hypocrisy? Does that mean whenever any western country is attacked that Americans have a right and duty to go and help that nation no matter who it may be?

Hanan Amen to that! I hear it all the time from everyone from hospitals that they feel the same way as you do about that! I for one totally agree with you.

Ops...You have to understand that in some situations including the ones that we are currently in thatpeople have to make their own decisions even if it the decision to destroy themselves. I understand now that we (even ideally and remotely we go in with an altruistic impression) can do more harm than good. Even if the average American believed that we were in there for good reason (although it is probably not) the ultimate decisions of what w do militarily is up to the Chief of ALL decisions-the President.

Ops in some strange way I'm an idealist as you are. I believe that there are corrupt dictatorships in the world but we cannot save everyone just like myself, as a police officer I know I wont be able to save everyone. Today I did 8 hours  in the jail system adn there are many gang members and drug dealers that definitely deserve to rot in the jails and there are some who are out in the streets. I'd like to get all these predators. But we cannot get them all and we cannot rehabilitate every drug user. One thing about my job is that you can be an idealist but its unrealistic to maintain that mindset, I understand that now. Everyone cannot be saved and everyone sometimes, doesn't want to be saved. Remember that!

.

I'd like to discuss this idea.......

It's quite interesting that many advocates who are against the war want the U.S out and many advocates for the war want the U.S to finish. But more a fair question to ask is as of now what if America left Iraq and Afghanistan? What would happen?

My absolutely loveable Israfil, you are a law enforcement officer.

Shall we say that �A� has raped a young nubile girl, in your precinct. Now, am I correct in saying that it still remains a crime even if all the Gangster�s householders (the Americans) begin to feel that it�s �unpatriotic� to accept it as a crime?

What do you suggest?

Shall we now ask the poor girl to keep lying down and to start enjoying it?

The rapist holds a grand plan for her.

He is going to make it possible for her to be stripped naked and raped all hours (through Law 29) by his friends� corporation and without as much as pausing to notice a sob from her.

He has taken pains to eradicate her mother, her father, all her brothers are lying in the morgue and her sisters are running away in different directions (poor little Arab heads of states!)

He has hired 23000 civilian contractors to take care of the neighbourhood.

He is trying to install a new governess (seen the elections!) to train her in the etiquette of being raped at ease and with absolute pleasure. Yet the idiot is struggling to flee and keeps banging her head against stonewalls. The world listens to her shrieks, keeps quiet.

And, the precinct officers keep very busy at their crossword puzzles!

It would also be good to charge America for the destruction and chaos it has brought to the country and region as a whole... Oh, and they could have Saddam as a take-away memorabilia.

Brother, thanks for such a generous offer. You could throw Karzai in as well. I won't mind. 

The situation in Afghanistan is:

This time there are no excuses. Every scrap of intelligence warned the government not to fight a war against insurgency in south Afghanistan. Ask the CIA, MI6, the former service chiefs Lord Inge and Lord Guthrie, and Nato allies who thought the then defence secretary, John Reid, was mad. Ask the Americans, who were losing more men than in Iraq and were wisely withdrawing. Read the reports published throughout 2004/5 that the Taliban were back in strength. These were veteran guerrillas, well armed, who could count on the tacit support of tens of thousands of tribal militias. What made Tony Blair think he could beat them with just 4,000 soldiers? The Soviets lost with 120,000.

The Russians had warned the US not to go in Afghanistan.

That is my view, dear brother. In my view, with the "best of intentions", both Iraq and Afghanistan are failures and would remain so.

BMZ

Prophetic, but just a bit difficult for our friends from the reasoning quarter to understand.

It is none of the American business to remain in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN. Let the population there decide what they want !!

Kashif

Yaar, if the bullies let the world to its own then who will pay them the tributes?

Exactly and likewise the cost of rebuilding Lebanon should be charged to Israel and come from the coffers of Israel. Why should others pay?

Best Regards

BMZ

Brother, not just that. We must have exactly the same compensation for each person as is fixed for Americans loss: $7 million. Isn�t it racist to accept something like �3512 pounds for 16 Iraqis killed?

I started to notice that no one in the middle east wants to accept responsibility for thier own actions.

Each time a proper and honest Mid East peace proposal was put before the UN who vetoed it? Have a guess. When you find that out, my friend, we will talk.

I would guess that the terrorists in Iraq has killed more civilians than the US since they actually target the local Iraq's who are trying to make the best of themselves by getting jobs and such but since nutjob with a bomb thinks they should not be working for the current government that they deserve to die. Of course no one seems to ever talk about that part of the war.

Please start a string for that and, I am sure, many would like to discuss your favourite topic with you.

This string is about the US should get out of there even in their own national interest.

It seems to me that, despite the loud proclamations of being anti-Bush and his racist government, many posters do support his agenda and repeat everything I�ve heard the neo-cons and others say.

Hanan, the Neo-Con in the common man�s skin is the most dangerous variety.

Why is it so important to some of our forum members that the US should remain in Iraq?

For the supremacy of the most sacred flag on our earth.

What has America done to prevent the killings?

The killings are part of the US agenda

� to partition Iraq and + as an excuse for their stay.

What has America done to further democracy and freedom in any of the countries it has ravaged for it�s own financial and ideological gain?

The American interests in the world and democracy don�t mix.

But, believe you me, the US had done all that could ever be done for MacDemocracy.

Does America, and it�s defenders on this forum, have a plan?

Yes, a very profitable �Party Plan�.

I will love you for your honesty.

That�s very sad. Who said honest was a profitable or a smart thing?

In case you didn't know the British lost the war and that is why they pulled out. Otherwise I think the war would of kept on going.

I am glad that the Americans won it in Eyrak and Afgaanistan!

I agree that America has no business with the affairs of oither countries and although I don't like playing super hero to a lost cause I think the case with the United States
intervening was "cause and effect."
I promise, I sincerely wish I could believe that world history wasn�t there before 9/11.

Although we may not see it in the media or ever see it I believe that there are some
sectors of these countries where people are flourishing whereas before they wouldn't have.

Very true, in today�s Iraq, the morgue is the most flourishing business we could ever have. I have been tempted to float a company in this sector.

Democracy, freedom, education, love, peace, sandy beaches and rock'n'roll is utter puff.

And, absolute bluff!

And �leaders�, in most of today�s world, have become synonymous with �corrupt�� only that some wear suit and tie, others military uniform and yet others tribal robes.

Brother, leader is mis-spelt.

The word is �Lidder� � who keeps the lid on the truth and on the populace�s brains.

Now you know why I miss you when you disappear?

We are being terrorized by manufacturers of drugs (meth labs, ect.), drug dealers, gangs, blue/white collar crimes, just to name a few. Instead of spending millions on kick-backs to politicians and billions to devastate foreign countries, we should raise the pay-scale of law enforcement and military personnel and increase the minimum wage.

Simply wow!

America is always told to mind her own business yet you all support other muslims from other countries that go and fight in other countries other than thier own so why the hypocrisy?

We don�t believe in countries.

All these countries were plotted by some bald, pot bellied English civil servants, allegedly for some �His� or �Her� majesty. Historically all this space was shared by many groups, tribes, peoples. They fight for the simple and basic principle of freedom.

Only some very raw chaps would fight for land or a piece of cloth with a motif on it.

Does that mean whenever any western country is attacked that Americans have a right and duty to go and help that nation no matter who it may be?

Are you running in soliloquy mode, a bit like Hamlet, asking yourself all the questions?

If you are asking me then we must realise that it's a historical fact:

the Americans have always found or invented reason for attacking any country of their choice whethre some western country was attacked or not.

Hanan wrote: Why is it so important to some of our forum members that the US should remain in Iraq?

that i have mentioned many times before.

What has America done to prevent the killings?

same thing can be said about muslims

Same thing can be said of the arabs (the arabic league who seem to unite on somethings)

because lets face it, there are civil and tribal fights and killings that have been going on for hundreds of years.

You can even say what are the locals doing about honour killings??

What has America done to further democracy and freedom in any of the countries it has ravaged for it�s own financial and ideological gain? Does America, and it�s defenders on this forum, have a plan?

You try and formulate a consitution that every agrees upon. You try and plan, formulate a democracy or some new system of government. It doesn't happen over night nor in a few years.

I would ask the forum members to finally �come clean� and state their true thoughts and opinions, regardless of how anti-Muslims you may sound. I will love you for your honesty.

anti muslim?? why would it be ? there are many who are not muslims in the region. The ME may have a large portion of muslims but they are not the only ones there.

-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Whisper wrote: It would also be good to charge America for the destruction and chaos it has brought to the country and region as a whole... Oh, and they could have Saddam as a take-away memorabilia. Brother, thanks for such a generous offer. You could throw Karzai in as well. I won't mind.  The situation in Afghanistan is: This time there are no excuses. Every scrap of intelligence warned the government not to fight a war against insurgency in south Afghanistan. Ask the CIA, MI6, the former service chiefs Lord Inge and Lord Guthrie, and Nato allies who thought the then defence secretary, John Reid, was mad. Ask the Americans, who were losing more men than in Iraq and were wisely withdrawing. Read the reports published throughout 2004/5 that the Taliban were back in strength. These were veteran guerrillas, well armed, who could count on the tacit support of tens of thousands of tribal militias. What made Tony Blair think he could beat them with just 4,000 soldiers? The Soviets lost with 120,000. The Russians had warned the US not to go in Afghanistan. That is my view, dear brother. In my view, with the "best of intentions", both Iraq and Afghanistan are failures and would remain so. BMZ Prophetic, but just a bit difficult for our friends from the reasoning quarter to understand. It is none of the American business to remain in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN. Let the population there decide what they want !! Kashif Yaar, if the bullies let the world to its own then who will pay them the tributes? Exactly and likewise the cost of rebuilding Lebanon should be charged to Israel and come from the coffers of Israel. Why should others pay? Best Regards BMZ Brother, not just that. We must have exactly the same compensation for each person as is fixed for Americans loss: $7 million. Isn�t it racist to accept something like �3512 pounds for 16 Iraqis killed? I started to notice that no one in the middle east wants to accept responsibility for thier own actions. Each time a proper and honest Mid East peace proposal was put before the UN who vetoed it? Have a guess. When you find that out, my friend, we will talk. I would guess that the terrorists in Iraq has killed more civilians than the US since they actually target the local Iraq's who are trying to make the best of themselves by getting jobs and such but since nutjob with a bomb thinks they should not be working for the current government that they deserve to die. Of course no one seems to ever talk about that part of the war. Please start a string for that and, I am sure, many would like to discuss your favourite topic with you. This string is about the US should get out of there even in their own national interest. It seems to me that, despite the loud proclamations of being anti-Bush and his racist government, many posters do support his agenda and repeat everything I�ve heard the neo-cons and others say. Hanan, the Neo-Con in the common man�s skin is the most dangerous variety. Why is it so important to some of our forum members that the US should remain in Iraq? For the supremacy of the most sacred flag on our earth. What has America done to prevent the killings? The killings are part of the US agenda � to partition Iraq and + as an excuse for their stay. What has America done to further democracy and freedom in any of the countries it has ravaged for it�s own financial and ideological gain? The American interests in the world and democracy don�t mix. But, believe you me, the US had done all that could ever be done for MacDemocracy. Does America, and it�s defenders on this forum, have a plan? Yes, a very profitable �Party Plan�. I will love you for your honesty. That�s very sad. Who said honest was a profitable or a smart thing? In case you didn't know the British lost the war and that is why they pulled out. Otherwise I think the war would of kept on going. I am glad that the Americans won it in Eyrak and Afgaanistan! I agree that America has no business with the affairs of oither countries and although I don't like playing super hero to a lost cause I think the case with the United States intervening was "cause and effect." I promise, I sincerely wish I could believe that world history wasn�t there before 9/11. Although we may not see it in the media or ever see it I believe that there are some sectors of these countries where people are flourishing whereas before they wouldn't have. Very true, in today�s Iraq, the morgue is the most flourishing business we could ever have. I have been tempted to float a company in this sector. Democracy, freedom, education, love, peace, sandy beaches and rock'n'roll is utter puff. And, absolute bluff! And �leaders�, in most of today�s world, have become synonymous with �corrupt�� only that some wear suit and tie, others military uniform and yet others tribal robes. Brother, leader is mis-spelt. The word is �Lidder� � who keeps the lid on the truth and on the populace�s brains. Now you know why I miss you when you disappear?   We are being terrorized by manufacturers of drugs (meth labs, ect.), drug dealers, gangs, blue/white collar crimes, just to name a few. Instead of spending millions on kick-backs to politicians and billions to devastate foreign countries, we should raise the pay-scale of law enforcement and military personnel and increase the minimum wage. Simply wow! America is always told to mind her own business yet you all support other muslims from other countries that go and fight in other countries other than thier own so why the hypocrisy? We don�t believe in countries. All these countries were plotted by some bald, pot bellied English civil servants, allegedly for some �His� or �Her� majesty. Historically all this space was shared by many groups, tribes, peoples. They fight for the simple and basic principle of freedom. Only some very raw chaps would fight for land or a piece of cloth with a motif on it. Does that mean whenever any western country is attacked that Americans have a right and duty to go and help that nation no matter who it may be? Are you running in soliloquy mode, a bit like Hamlet, asking yourself all the questions?   If you are asking me then we must realise that it's a historical fact: the Americans have always found or invented reason for attacking any country of their choice whethre some western country was attacked or not. Happy?

 I bet you own a lot of tin foil don't you? Hear any helicopters flying around your house lately? Also, remember to always look behind you every so often to make sure that CIA agents isn't too close to you.

 I bet you own a lot of tin foil don't you? Hear any helicopters flying around your house lately? Also, remember to always look behind you every so often to make sure that CIA agents isn't too close to you.

Just love the CIA!

They are always on the trail of some pedestrians for their performance counts. If you ever knew how your tax dollars are spent, you will hang all the admins for theft, robbery and killing Americans to feed the war machine greed.

Then other world countries would have to still help keep the peace as Iraqi's would still be fighting each other, sunni shia etc.

Then other world countries would have to still help keep the peace as Iraqi's would still be fighting each other, sunni shia etc.

Really? Do the Iraqis have any such tradition of fighting each other, say, since Abraham?

You know they have only shown (or, is it, sown?) such talent since our valliant "civilian contractors" infiltrated the population to implement the HangLow-American agenda of dividing Iraq.

Whisper wrote: Then other world countries would have to still help keep the peace as Iraqi's would still be fighting each other, sunni shia etc. Really? Do the Iraqis have any such tradition of fighting each other, say, since Abraham? You know they have only shown (or, is it, sown?) such talent since our valliant "civilian contractors" infiltrated the population to implement the HangLow-American agenda of dividing Iraq.

Any proof that we did that or is this something that came to you in a dream?

ak_m_f wrote: amlhabibi2000 wrote:   Iraqi's would still be fighting each other, sunni shia etc. The two British operatives, arrested by Basra police and later freed by a British military operation, were identified by the BBC as "members of the SAS elite special forces" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/424614.stm). They were disguised by wigs and Arab dress. Iraqi sources reported that the Iraqi police were watching the two, and when they tried to approach them they shot two policemen and tried to escape the scene. The Iraqi police chased and captured them, to discover large amount of explosives planted in the car, which apparently was planned to be remotely detonated in the busy market of Basra. Same old tactics, divide and conquer. We always fall for it...

Your link:

404 - Page Not Found

ak_m_f wrote: Gaurdian still has it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1573933,00.html

That one didn't mention the car being full of explosives though. Wearing the scarf doesn't really mean much since I would expect if you are undercover you would want to blend in, do you not agree? Although them shooting at the police is a bit suspicous I wouldn't really call it trying to start a civil war.

Any proof that we did that or is this something that came to you in a dream?

Really, you want to talk dreams? Some men's dreams are far more potent than all those Hang Low Sexnon proofs you are fed before lame invasions.

Understand or shall AK Mf translate it for you?

Whisper wrote: Any proof that we did that or is this something that came to you in a dream? Really, you want to talk dreams? Some men's dreams are far more potent than all those Hang Low Sexnon proofs you are fed before lame invasions. Understand or shall AK Mf translate it for you?

All that time typing when you could of just said "no I don't have proof"

"no I don't have proof"

Global war criminals now demanding proofs from us? Wish you had some time now left for the proof games? 

Whisper wrote: "no I don't have proof" Global war criminals now demanding proofs from us? Wish you had some time now left for the proof games?

And what global war crime have I committed? Yeah I've thought asking someone for proof was a game, who needs evidence when you can just dream it up all day long like you do. Please let me know more of the wisdom you have learned in your alleged travels around the world. I would really like to know more because I�m just a simple mind who needs evidence before coming to a conclusion about something.

And what global war crime have I committed?

I am sorry for that comment, but in these sad times, the world seems to hold the American citizens responsible for this gang's re-approval as being part of their crimes.

Yeah I've thought asking someone for proof was a game, who needs evidence when you can just dream it up all day long like you do.

Yor were shown so many proofs, by the White House, that by now you should have become allergic to these

Please let me know more of the wisdom you have learned in your alleged travels around the world. I would really like to know more because I�m just a simple mind who needs evidence before coming to a conclusion about something.

Wisdom starts where counting and reasoning ends!

Duende wrote: Ops 154, that you are a simple mind, there is no doubt. Try getting out of your box sometime and reading anything other than what's published by the corporate media who are controlling yours, and other people's simple minds. Then, you will find, much to your shame (if you can afford such a luxury) that the REST OF THE WORLD knows more than you do about the conniving machinations of your United States of America. Those who blow the whistle in your back yard are either silenced or sent to purgatory, and generally receive a warmer welcome elsewhere, in places where people have been thinking for themselves for a few more centuries. I know it's hard, after all, since birth you have received the message that the United States is the world leader in moral and ethical behaviour, and that by simpy existing, the United States is the greatest country on earth. Millions go there, as you will claim, because life is extremely comfortable there. You don't even have to think for yourself. Others do that for you.

Even my simple mind puts you to shame, you are the biggest idiot on this board. Really I mean that, thinking that the fall of America would not affect you proves how smart you really are. I would choose America over Spain anyday buddy, didn't your country fold from the first attack on you?

Hanan wrote: Oops: you are the biggest idiot on this board Oopsi, you did it AGAIN � insulting another fellow American ... ten lashes with a wet noodle for you ... now, turn off that library computer and shuffle on home ... momma got them vitals done � twelve-pack�s in the icebox � dog poop swept under the carpet � hold it � momma just downed 4 Buds � you better hurry � oh boy, gonna have the neighbors call the law again tonight � I don�t know why you and the old gal can�t get along �

Don't you have someone to behead? Or is today the day you take your towle off your head and actually wash some of that filth out? Maybe a bit hard still living in the stone ages and sleeping on the dirt floors and such but if you scrub hard enough you can get it out. Try some Shout or Spray N Wash to get the blood out if you are having trouble with it.

Really I was going to join you at the Nazi meeting today, you are still running it aren't you? I wouldn't want to miss your presentation of how to kill as many jews, women and children with with a suicide bomb.

WantingToLearn wrote: I personally thought that the Iranian president's speech was excellent.  I also think we should discuss his speech.  It is also true that Americans have had their thoughts controlled by the owners of the media, whether it was intentional or not.  The media simply reports news in a fashion that enables them to make more money, but sometimes, reporting in this way, requires not reporting the full truth.

See I actually do believe that our press is an extension of this administrion but again you and most others on this board seem to think it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world. Can anyone please list me one news source that is not bias.

ops154 wrote: See I actually do believe that our press is an extension of this administrion but again you and most others on this board seem to think it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world. Can anyone please list me one news source that is not bias.

I think you are confused.  The press is not an extension of Bush.  The press is an extension of the owners of the country and so is Bush and Congress.  It is the rich who hold the power to choose members of Congress, our president and to decide which laws are allowed and permitted to exist.  

WantingToLearn wrote: ops154 wrote: See I actually do believe that our press is an extension of this administrion but again you and most others on this board seem to think it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world. Can anyone please list me one news source that is not bias. I think you are confused.  The press is not an extension of Bush.  The press is an extension of the owners of the country and so is Bush and Congress.  It is the rich who hold the power to choose members of Congress, our president and to decide which laws are allowed and permitted to exist.

I understand but from my viewpoint Bush is part of those elites that you speak about. Have you ever followed the Bush family history? It leads all the way back to royality and nothing good ever came from royality.

ops154,

Why don't you knock it off?  You're everything that is wrong with this country.  "Don't you have someone to behead?"  Could you get more crass and insulting. 

Why are you even on this board? 

Angela wrote: ops154, Why don't you knock it off?  You're everything that is wrong with this country.  "Don't you have someone to behead?"  Could you get more crass and insulting.  Why are you even on this board?

Here since you seemed to of missed her statement to me and why I replied that way:

Oopsi, you did it AGAIN � insulting another fellow American ... ten lashes with a wet noodle for you ... now, turn off that library computer and shuffle on home ... momma got them vitals done � twelve-pack�s in the icebox � dog poop swept under the carpet � hold it � momma just downed 4 Buds � you better hurry � oh boy, gonna have the neighbors call the law again tonight � I don�t know why you and the old gal can�t get along �

Have you ever seen me type something like that to anyone else on this board? When she brings my dead mother into this I will say whatever I choose to her

You want to know what is wrong with this country? People like Hanan, Whisper (not in america but people like him), Bush, Cheney, Hannity, M. Moore, etc. The ones who have to go to the extreme. I have never said anything like that to anyone else and I don't see myself saying it to anyone else but she stepped over the line with the reply that was nothing but insults to me and my family. You don't see anything wrong with what she said? I am actually someone who is more in the middle than anything else. I see the problems America makes and also the problems the rest of the world seems to make and I am open to discussing them with anyone but if it's just going to be bash fest then I guess I will pick sides and it will never be on the side against my home.

I don't think she knew your mother was dead.  You come off like a redneck everytime you open your mouth.  You cannot bash Bush in one sentence and support the war in another.  You really aren't in the middle.  You're right of center. 

I will pick sides against my home if my home is doing wrong.  When we were growing up, do you remember what we were taught about Russians?  Or are you not old enough?  Well let me tell you what they were taught about us?  The EXACT same stuff.   And guess what, that battle was won not by might, or wars, or anything other than the CCCP was doomed to failure on its own accord. 

The US needs to learn to sit down, shut up and mind its own business.  I love American, but right now, I'm really considering that.  If we legalize torture and strip Americans and non Americans of the basic human rights, are we any better than the Taliban or the Gestapo?  No. 

Hanan statement was rude and crude too...but you've been at it alot longer.  And where she attacked by implying your family were dirty alcoholics, you implied murder.  I do see a difference there.

.

I would choose America over Spain anyday buddy, didn't your country fold from the first attack on you?

I had the choice and it would have been more convenient for me to stay in Michigan, but I chose to move from the UK to Spain. And, it's the place for the likes of Earnest Hemingway or anyone with a taste for culture and absolutely dignified humans.

.

Angela wrote: I don't think she knew your mother was dead.  You come off like a redneck everytime you open your mouth.  You cannot bash Bush in one sentence and support the war in another.  You really aren't in the middle.  You're right of center.  I will pick sides against my home if my home is doing wrong.  When we were growing up, do you remember what we were taught about Russians?  Or are you not old enough?  Well let me tell you what they were taught about us?  The EXACT same stuff.   And guess what, that battle was won not by might, or wars, or anything other than the CCCP was doomed to failure on its own accord.  The US needs to learn to sit down, shut up and mind its own business.  I love American, but right now, I'm really considering that.  If we legalize torture and strip Americans and non Americans of the basic human rights, are we any better than the Taliban or the Gestapo?  No.  Hanan statement was rude and crude too...but you've been at it alot longer.  And where she attacked by implying your family were dirty alcoholics, you implied murder.  I do see a difference there.

I don't really care if she knew or not so that is beside the point. I have said many times I support the war in Afghanistan but not the one in Iraq so again yes I can support a war but not the president.

If we were to sit down and stay away from everyone we would be seen as people who don't care so either way we doomed to having people hate us.

Maybe you didn't see the thread where me and her met, oh you couldn't have because it was a personal message attacking me. Yep never knew her before that attack so if that would not of happened maybe I would be a bit more kind to her.

Hanan wrote: I understand but from my viewpoint Bush is part of those elites that you speak about. Have you ever followed the Bush family history? It leads all the way back to royality and nothing good ever came from royality. The word is Royalty, not royality. Obviously, YOU haven�t followed the Bush family history, not that there�s much to follow. The term �Royalty� cannot be attached to the names of Americans. Royalty exists only outside of the continental US. I shouldn�t even have to explain this to you, because as you know, only poor and disadvantaged people came from Europe to settle here, and Royalty was certainly not among them. If, on the other hand, you meant to say that the Bushies consider themselves to be a dynasty, then you should read �American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune, and the Politics of Deceit in the House of Bush� by Kevin Phillips http://www.americandynasty.net/excerpts.htm - www.americandynasty.net/excerpts.htm Excerpts: .... in examining two Bush presidencies and the family's four-generation pursuit of national prominence and power - and in doing so through a lens that highlighted elite associations, dynastic ambitions, and recurring financial and business practices - I found a greater basis for dismay and disillusionment than I had imagined. The result is an unusual and unflattering portrait of a great family (great in power, not morality) that has built a base over the course of the twentieth century in the back corridors of the new military-industrial complex and in close association with the growing intelligence and national security establishments. In doing so, the Bushes have threaded their way through damning political, banking, and armanents scandals and, since the 1980s, controversies like the October Surprise, Iran-Contra, and Iraqgate imbroglios, which in another climate or a different time might have led to impeachment. I am not talking about ordinary lack of business ethics or financial corruption. During the late twentieth century, several other presidents and their families displayed these shortcomings, and the public has become understandably blase. Four generations of building toward dynasty, however, have infused the Bush family's hunger for power and practices of crony capitalism with a moral arrogance and backstage disregard of the democratic and republican traditions of the U.S. government. As we will see, four generations of involvement with clandestine arms deals and European and Middle Eastern rogue banks will do that. Were history to posit a "Bush era," lasting from George H. W. Bush's triumph in 1988 through 2008, the two family presidencies might well define the entire two decades, turning the Clinton years into the political equivalent of sandwich filler. On the other hand, were Senator Hillary Clinton to achieve in 2008 a second restoration, this one Clintonian, public perception might well lurch toward some American equivalent of the fifteenth-century Wars of the Roses, during which the English Crown was contested by the houses of York and Lancaster. .... When Nixon, in turn, won the presidency in 1968, he would treat George H. W. Bush, a first-term congressman, as befit the son of Prescott Bush. The younger Bush had also been commended to Nixon by former Republican presidential nominee Thomas E. Dewey, probably the one man most responsible for convincing Dwight Eisenhower to take Nixon as his running mate back in 1952. Thus did the Nixon administration become the all-important career elevator for the little-known U.S. representative from Houston. Eastern patricians, even the oil-stained variety, were rare in the Nixon entourage�and for that matter, rare in national Republican elective politics. Nixon wore them as badges of social acceptance; he had taken one, former U.S. senator Henry Cabot Lodge of Massachusetts, as his vice presidential running mate in 1960. Eight years later, he let the name of George H. W. Bush make the vice presidential rumor mills, less because of any possible appeal Bush might have in Texas than for the socioeconomic reassurance he would offer to New York and Connecticut Republican donors and Ivy League clubland. Appointments to the United Nations (1970) and the Republican National Committee (1973) brought Bush cabinet and Nixon-inner-circle status, maintaining the Washington visibility critical to his future. Nixon valued Bush's family connections, gung ho spirit, personal likability, and social outreach. Similar considerations helped to guide President Ford�s 1975 selection of him to head the CIA, a famous repository of Yale alumni. Bush wanted to be�and perhaps was - taken as qualified for the cabinet in the unelected, bred-to-it manner of a Curzon, Cecil, or Lansdowne in Edwardian England. This, to be sure, is getting ahead of our story. What made it possible to consider Bush for vice president in 1968, almost out of the blue, was that some fifty years earlier, his two grandfathers - George Herbert Walker, a well-connected St. Louis financier, and Samuel Prescott Bush, a wealthy Ohio railroad equipment manufacturer - had managed to implant themselves and their descendants in the eastern establishment. This helped Prescott Bush get ahead, much as later connections helped George H. W. and George W. To tell their tale, American Dynasty unfolds like this: Chapter 1 introduces the Bushes as our "not-quite-royal family." I�m not being facetious here. NOTE: The Bush royal connections documented in Burke's Peerage and elsewhere have nourished the self-image of both chief executives. However, the real founding father of the Bush clan was not a Bush, but a Walker - George H. Walker, for whom both the forty-first and forty-third presidents are named. If, after reading the above recommended book, you still insist that the bushies are royalty then it will warm your heart to read the following quote by your Queen-Mother regarding the goings-on in Iraq: "But why should we hear about body bags, and deaths, and how many, what day it's gonna happen, and how many this or what do you suppose? Or, I mean, it's, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?" - Barbara Bush on "Good Morning America," 3/18/2003

Believe it or not i own this book and since you have posted this I will check it out and get back with you.

Hanan wrote: He knows that I wasn't talking about his dead mother. Southern country folk call their WIVES momma. How do I know that he is Southern? He made a post the other day in which he refered to an event on TV at a certain time of the day and that's when I knew where he was from.

I said Central Time did I not? Could you check a map of time zones and tell me if there are any states in central time zone that is not in the south. I bet I could name a few, including the one I live in. So again you ASSumed something about me and were wrong, again!!!

Hanan wrote: You know Hanan.  I've always found that a strange and disgusting practice to call your wife Momma or your husband Papa.  Its all to Ozarkian for me. I live even more to the South and they all call each other momma and papa. At first I often wondered about the age difference until I realized that they weren't mother/son or father/daughter ...

I don't call my wife momma so if I said it on here I was being sarcastic.

Hanan wrote: Do you remember when I posted the picture of the dead Lebanese baby and a mod promptly deleted it? Where are the mods now? I am sick of the obvious bias - this guy can write about burning me in the death camp crematorium and he�s still here? Maybe I should post another �offending to the gentle heart of Angels� photo to make one of them pay attention.

Hanan,

There's the report button at the top of the screen and when all else fails, send the link to Amah, Peacemaker, Andalus or BMZ.  That's all I did with the picture.  They don't pay attention to every thread, sometimes you just need to bring it to their attention.  Its not always an issue of bias, its usually an issue of inattention. 

Send a PM to one of the moderators.  I think he's out of line too.

But, have you ever heard the old saying, two wrongs don't make a right?  

.

Hanan wrote: He knows that I wasn't talking about his dead mother. Southern country folk call their WIVES momma. How do I know that he is Southern? He made a post the other day in which he refered to an event on TV at a certain time of the day and that's when I knew where he was from.

Newsflash!Time zone changes are affected by changes in longitude not latitude!So I have no idea how you could tell if he was northern or southern based on the information you claim to have had.I call my old ladie, momma some times and I live in NY.Sounds like a little stereotype workin there.

Umm to get away from all the insults that have been posted here.....

Has anyone here been to Iraq or Afganistan? Or have family or friends there and so actually have some idea of what the people there think? It is difficult to know as every news item you read is tainted no matter whether it comes from America, England or Iraq.

Has anyone here been to Iraq or Afganistan? Or have family or friends there and so actually have some idea of what the people there think? Somtimes, visit the periphery of Afghanistan. But, why go all that way, come to Spain or even visit some English village, the Brits are really upto here with their poodle!

Whisper....

I really don't understand what your last comment means?! What are you trying to say?!

Leii wrote: Umm to get away from all the insults that have been posted here..... Has anyone here been to Iraq or Afganistan? Or have family or friends there and so actually have some idea of what the people there think? It is difficult to know as every news item you read is tainted no matter whether it comes from America, England or Iraq.

I work with a couple guys who just got back from Afghanistan and I have family in Iraq. Really depends on what questions you have but I would be more than willing to ask them anything you wanted to know.

Ops,

I just wondered how they feel about all that has happened there? Do they want the American and British troops to leave? What do they want to happen in their country now?

It seems to me that the people living in Iraq should make the decision as to what happens. I don't think it's fair that these decisions will be made by Bush, Blair or the UN, or whoever it is, because they can walk away afterwards and don't have to live with whatever happens there now.

I really don't understand what your last comment means?! What are you trying to say?!

My friend, my comment is in relation to to get away from all the insults that have been posted here..... and it says that I do visit the periphery of Afghanistan at times, but go that far to taste insults for most things American? We could taste that reaction here in Spain or even in most villages of good old Inglaand!

I just wondered how they feel about all that has happened there?

I hope, you won't mind if I asked you your age?

This one is an exceptionally intelligent question if you are 8 something. Otherwise, beyond that age, most folks, unless they are utter Americans, do know how people feel when they are bombed into stoneage and occupied.

Do they want the American and British troops to leave?

How could anyone ever dream of let alone want the HangLow-American masters of the universe to leave? As you know, these troops were invited. Tony showed the embossed invitaton card to his most trusted cabinet members - remember the one, which David Kelly thought was a bit sexed up! I am glad they got rid of that chap well and proper and without even leaving one fingerprint anywhere!

The troops will leave just once the job is done. It's a simple job and only the Brits are the global experts on that. They want to do with Iraq exactly what they did with India, Palestine, tried with Malaya, but failed for some reason. You will agree that no one can partition, Balkanise and creat exciting lasting bloodbaths than our Great Brits.

Once the job of breaking Iraq apart is done, my friend, just wait and see, how these troops will leave, as is the long held Brit tradition, just at the stroke of Mid Night! 

What do they want to happen in their country now?

Do they really have any say about their own lives in the face of our imperial lords' might?

Leii,

An honest answer to your question could not come from an Iraqi or Afghani living in the west.  I know of many Iraqis here in the US that support the invasion.  But they are not the ones fearing suicide bombers while grocery shopping or after Jummah. And they aren't the ones having American soldiers busting down their doors and carrying off their husbands and fathers on suspicion of being insurgent sympathizers.  To get a true reaction, you'd need to actually talk to the people LIVING in the War Zone.  And not those Iraqis getting wealthy and fat in there American imposed positions of power.

ak_m_f wrote: ops154 wrote: I have family in Iraq. OMG ur funny!

How is that funny? I didn't say I had family from Iraq, I said IN Iraq. Hmmmm wonder how an American could have family IN Iraq?

Whisper wrote: I just wondered how they feel about all that has happened there? I hope, you won't mind if I asked you your age? This one is an exceptionally intelligent question if you are 8 something. Otherwise, beyond that age, most folks, unless they are utter Americans, do know how people feel when they are bombed into stoneage and occupied. Do they want the American and British troops to leave? How could anyone ever dream of let alone want the HangLow-American masters of the universe to leave? As you know, these troops were invited. Tony showed the embossed invitaton card to his most trusted cabinet members - remember the one, which David Kelly thought was a bit sexed up! I am glad they got rid of that chap well and proper and without even leaving one fingerprint anywhere! The troops will leave just once the job is done. It's a simple job and only the Brits are the global experts on that. They want to do with Iraq exactly what they did with India, Palestine, tried with Malaya, but failed for some reason. You will agree that no one can partition, Balkanise and creat exciting lasting bloodbaths than our Great Brits. Once the job of breaking Iraq apart is done, my friend, just wait and see, how these troops will leave, as is the long held Brit tradition, just at the stroke of Mid Night!  What do they want to happen in their country now? Do they really have any say about their own lives in the face of our imperial lords' might?

Can you show me where the ELECTED government has asked the American and British troops to leave?

Can you show me where the ELECTED government has asked the American and British troops to leave?

What elected government? Poor chap, is it that you fail to see reality or has it become so unpalatable that you just wish not to see it?

MOREOVER our friend has asked:

Do they want the American and British troops to leave? - meaning or at least implying the people of Iraq & Afghanistan.

Now please hold on here, just for a while. If only an elected government is te exact rep of its people then you are certainly a war criminal? And, all the Americans are as big idiots as their elected government?

I retract my recent apology and frm today I will hold you personally responsible for all acts of your government.

Can you show me?

When we grow out of our "show me" "show me" early school years, we find that we become able to have a grown up conversation. Plus, at times, it also helps to read a post before jumping in the defence of our great "Bombing the World to Stoneage" Presidente. How would I be of any help to you if you aren't able to see what history lays bare before us all? Please read my post at least once again

The troops will leave just once the job is done. It's a simple job and only the Brits are the global experts on that. They want to do with Iraq exactly what they did with India, Palestine, tried with Malaya, but failed for some reason. You will agree that no one can partition, Balkanise and creat exciting lasting bloodbaths than our Great Brits.

Coming events will also hold me right in not so very distant future. No doubt the HangLow-Americans will break Iraq, but there lurks a strange age old tale of the Two Rivers! Their epmire will be burried exactly where they have shed blood. Read the passage below. One day you will remember who had said it. That day your "show me" "show me" sobs would have just ceased.

Once the job of breaking Iraq apart is done, my friend, just wait and see, how these troops will leave, as is the long held Brit tradition, just at the stroke of Mid Night! 

Under the laws of war, this so-called Interim Government of Iraq is nothing more than a "puppet government."

Thanks a million, ak_m_f, I am so glad you didn't join the army! The Malaki and Karzai governments aren't effective even outside their bathrooms. They are kept alive by their US and Israel bodyguards.

Total worth of these governments or, for that matter, any other such put up jobs by any invaders, is no more than that of rubber stamps.

I will more than likely be banned after posting this but hey I will still lurk, in order to better know my enemy.

Surprised that you have to be here to know your enemy!

Don't be scared, it will be okay, just look in the mirror to find your worst enemy.

Sir I am regular reader of Armed Forces Journal [ US Army Magazine]
I came across this few months ago:

What can we do? It's hard for them to sleep without mischief goaded by the hungry man's greed. It's simple: we have something that they want. It's not the other way around.

Have you ever had an chance of discussing it with some Canadians or those nice Americans who normally head for crime-free Windsor?

They are interfering with our lives and still crying foul. What do you say about that?

Angela wrote: Leii, An honest answer to your question could not come from an Iraqi or Afghani living in the west.  I know of many Iraqis here in the US that support the invasion.  But they are not the ones fearing suicide bombers while grocery shopping or after Jummah. And they aren't the ones having American soldiers busting down their doors and carrying off their husbands and fathers on suspicion of being insurgent sympathizers.  To get a true reaction, you'd need to actually talk to the people LIVING in the War Zone.  And not those Iraqis getting wealthy and fat in there American imposed positions of power.

Angela,

That was the point of my question. Has anyone on here spoken to anyone living in Iraq or Afganistan? Because we could all sit here and argue about the pros and cons of American and British troops being there but until anyone gets a proper prospective and first hand account of what the people want then we are not going to get a definitive answer.

He even thought that its better to spend on military by cutting back on health & education plans. I was simpily amazed.
Some of us do live in the stoneage! Our Civilised Nations cry all night for democracy, human rights and all that, but when someone elects a genuinely popular government then they starve the hell out of poor Palestinians!

I couldn't live in Norte de Amerika for its dollar worship society. The Spanish are still far more human in their approach to everything in life including global affairs. We did have an Aznar but obviously he has now moved to his natural country, the US of A.

He thought exactly like an American.

if i were u i wud have clobbered some sense into the guy

Some are moulded beyond any chance of sense, plus why worry? It's best for the world to boycott HangLow-American products. You can set them right only by hitting their pocket.

UmmAmara wrote: Wtf is ur problem man?Dont u c this is whisper and me sharing a light moment?...plz...i think u left ur zipper open....there,something to keep u busy for a while.Ur acting too childish moving to all my posts and being a B@#$...plz GROW UP and stop being an ass.

Wow!  Sister, what offensive and crude language, and during Ramadhan no less.......

Assalamu alaikum,

Indeed, Sister, Allah is Most Merciful, Oft-Forgiving!

Ramadhan Mubarak!