Bismillahirrahmaanerraheem

Prophet Mohammad pbuh was mentioned in the Song of Songs (in the Old Testament) which is also known as Song of Solomon.
The original name of this song was Shir Hashirim.
This is what it says in Hebrew, 5:16
Chiku mamtakim v'khulo machamadim zeh dodi v'zeh re'i b'not yerushalayim
In English, 5:16:
His conversation is sweetness itself, he is MACHAMADIM, such is my beloved oh daughters of Jerusalem.
The word MACHAMADIM:
Firstly, the CH used is the same as the H used in arabic for the word MOHAMMAD. The IM at the end is just like the one used for ELOHIM. The IM at the end of ELOHIM is agreed by Jews and most Christians to be a sign of respect, like THE ELOH, or the Great Eloh, or the Majestic Eloh, etc.
Hence, the same applies to Machamadim. So the actual word is Machamad, and as we discussed the CH is the same as the H in Mohammad so the word is MAHAMAD!

Finally, the vowels are agreed by Biblical scholars to have been inserted much later in history. So the actualy word is MHMD. This is exactly how the word Mohammad is written in Hebrew. In other words, if the Bible was to mention the name of Prophet Mohammad pbuh, it would be mentioned as MHMD, and this is the case in Shir Hashirim.
Also, the name of the song is very intresting. The original name was Shir Hashirim, which means Song of Hashirim. The IM as we have already shown is a sign of respect, so it's actually Shir Hashir, meaning Song of Hashir.
In Sunan Tirmidhi (a famous Hadith book) we read that one of the names of Prophet Mohammad pbuh was Hashir !!!
Shir Hashirim also gives a description of MHMD, which fits in exactly with the description of Prophet Mohammad pbuh as recorded in the Hadith books. If anyone is intrested, I can give more detail.

Peace unto those who follow the Guidance

We've already discussed this subject in another forum. 

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6169&PN=2 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6169& ;PN=2

The Song of Solomon is not recognized as a divine work by my Church and its origins are questionable.  I highly doubt a moral Man like Muhammed would be mentioned in such a book.  Its probably mere coincidence and really is in my opinion disrespectful to the Prophet Muhammed. 

I can understand the interpretations of him as the Comforter foretold by Jesus in the New Testament.  Or the Prophet like unto Moses promised in the Old Testament.  But if you've ever read the Song of Solomon....this is not a place to find references to pious and morally upright Prophets. 

Angela wrote: The Song of Solomon is not recognized as a divine work by my Church and its origins are questionable.

Assalamu Alaykum

The Song of Solomon, also known as Song of Songs or Shir Hashirim IS a part of the Bible and you can find it in ANY Bible in the Old Testament.

Also, it is not talking about a woman in Chapter 5 of the book, and it's Chapter 5 that we are concerned with.

Bismillahirrahmaanerraheem

The name MHMD (Mohammad) is certainly in the Bible, in the "Song of Songs", also known as "the song of Solomon", the correct name being "Shir Hashirim". This book is in the Old Testament and is agreed upon by both Christians and Jews and you can find it in ANY Bible.

The song (at least chapter 5) is not about a woman, neither has it anything to do with Prophet Solomon (Sulayman) peace be upon him.

Now let us see who this person is... who is MHMD ? What is his description?
Let's continue reading the Song of Songs/Shir Hashirim:

SONG OF SONGS 5:10
"My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand."

Now let us compare this with the description of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) in the Hadith:
HADEETH ON WHITE AND RUDDY (reddish) SKIN:
Rosy color [Sahih Bukhari 4:747];
"White man reclining on his arm" [Sahih Bukhari, 1:63];
Whiteness of his armpits [Sahih Muslim, 4:1000];
Whiteness of his legs [Sahih Muslim, 4:1014, 19:4437];
Whiteness of his cheek [Sahih Muslim 4:1208];
Whiteness of his belly [Sahih Muslim 19:4442].
In all these narrations his whiteness is pointed out as something exceptional for an Arab.

HADEETH ON "THE CHIEFEST AMONG TEN THOUSAND":

"The Prophet left Medina (for Mecca) IN THE COMPANY OF TEN THOUSAND (Muslim warriors) in Ramadan" [Sahih Bukhari 5:574]
Also see Sahih Bukhari 5:622; 626

SONG OF SONGS 5:11
"His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven."

"His hair GLOSSY AND BLACK, INCLINED TO CURL, he wore long." [Zad al Ma`d 2:45]
"His head was large, well formed and set on a slender neck." [Zad al Ma`ad 2:45]
"When he (The Prophet, May Allah peace and blessings be upon him) died, HE HAD SCARCELY TWENTY WHITE HAIRS IN HIS HEAD AND BEARD." [Sahih Bukhari 4:747,748]
"Anas was asked about the old age of Allah's Apostle (May Allah peace and blessings be upon him). He said, 'ALLAH DID NOT BLEMISH HIM WITH WHITE HAIR." [Sahih Muslim 30:5784]
"I said to him: O son of my brother, the hair of the Messenger of Allah (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was THICKER THAN YOUR HAIR AND THEY WERE FINER (than yours)." [Sahih Muslim, 3:642]

SONG OF SONGS 5:12
"His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set."

"He had black attractive eyes finely arched by continuous eyebrows." [Zad al Ma`d 2:45]

"Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had a broad face with REDDISH (wide) EYES.." [Sahih Muslim 30:5776] (Note: Doves have reddish eyes.)

SONG OF SONGS 5:13
"His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh."

"He (The Prophet, May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also patted my cheek and I experienced a coolness or a fragrance of his hand as if it had been brought out from the scent bag of a
perfumer." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5758]

"I never smelt ambergris or musk as fragrant as the fragrance of the body of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5759]

"I never smelt musk or ambergris and found its fragrance as sweet as the fragrance of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Sahih Muslim 30:5760]

"Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had the most handsome face amongst men." [Sahih Muslim 30:5772]

SONG OF SONGS 5:14
"His hands are as gold rings set with the beryl: his belly is as bright ivory overlaid with sapphires."

"The Prophet had big hands, and I have never seen anybody like him after him" [Sahih Muslim 7:792]

"I never touched brocade and silk (and found it) as soft as the softness of the palm of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)" [Sahih Muslim, 30:5760]

"WHITENESS OF HIS BELLY" [Sahih Muslim 19:4442]


SONG OF SONGS 5:15
"His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars."

"He (The Prophet, May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was innocently bright and had BROAD COUNTENANCE." [Zad al Ma`ad 2:45]

"..my knee touched the thigh of the Prophet of Allah (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The wrapper got aside from his thigh, and I could see its whiteness." [Sahih Muslim 19:4437]


Notice all the above are from the same Chapter. Finally we get to verse 16, where it says:
His conversation is sweetness itself, he is MACHAMADIM, such is my beloved oh daughters of Jerusalem.

As we've already seen on my previous post, Machamadim is the same as Mohammad.

We also mentioned that the song's name is Shir Hashirim, and that Hashir is one of the names of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). Here is the Hadith:

"Abu Musa al Ash`ari reported that Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) mentioned many names of his and said, 'I am Mohammad, Ahmad. Muqaffi, Hashir, the Prophet of
Repentance, and the Prophet of Mercy." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5813]



After the coming of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) some Christians and Jews have tried to alter the meaning of the Songs of Songs...some say it's about a Woman!! Most Christians say it's about the Church, and most Jews say it's about God!!

Let's see what classical Jewish scholars had to say about this book (song of songs/shir hashirim):
"The whole world is not worth the day on which the Song of Songs was given to Israel; for all the writings are holy, but the Song of Songs is the holiest of the holy."
[Rabbi Akiva (died AD 135), Tractate of Yaddayim (3:5), Mishna]

"...and the book itself as an allegory depicting in great detail the experiences of the nation in its relations with its God from the Exodus down to *THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH AND THE BUILDING OF THE THIRD TEMPLE.* This in general is also the interpretation of the Midrash Rabbah and such famous scholars as Saadia ben Joseph, Rashi, and Ibn Ezra, although they differ considerably among themselves in details."
[The Interpreter's Bible Encyclopedia]

Ofcourse, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is not the Messiah, and ofcourse the Song of Songs never says it is about the coming of the Messiah, but let us remember that Jews often referred to future Prophet/prophets as "Messiah". The "Third Temple" mentioned here is none other than Ka'bah in Meccah.

This so-called "Third Temple" is mentioned in other parts of the Bible as the Next house of God (which is a better description of Ka'bah).
In another book of the Old Testament, Haggai, we read:
Haggai 2:7 "And I will shake all nations, AND THE DESIRE OF ALL NATIONS SHALL COME: and I will fill this house with glory saith the Lord of hosts."

In place of "desire of all nations", the Hebrew text uses one single word: "CHMD" which is pronouncable as "ACHMAD" (which is "AHMAD" in Arabic). Thus, the translation would be, "And I will shake all nations, AND AHMAD SHALL COME: and I will fill this house with glory saith the Lord of hosts."

Immediately after that, Haggai 2:9 says "The glory of this latter house shall be greatesr than the former: and in this place will I give PEACE, saith the Lord of hosts."

And we know that one of the meanings of ISLAM is Peace.

Infact, there is more, there is another chapter of the Bible that gives a perfect description of Prophet Mohammad's Hijrah. But for now, this is enough.

Peace unto those who follow the Guidance

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/s/94 - http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/s/94

Song of Solomon

Since I have heard many times that muslims believe the Bible to be corrupt, why would any muslim decide that the Song of Solomon is somehow "uncorrupt"?  How can you decide what is, and what is not the truth?

I have many answers from the Bible scholars regarding the Song of Solomon, but I think this would be better placed in Islam Interfaith Topics.  The Song is not referring to Mohammed.

Respectfully yours,

Angela wrote: We've already discussed this subject in another forum.  http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6169&PN=2 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6169& ; ;PN=2   The Song of Solomon is not recognized as a divine work by my Church and its origins are questionable.  I highly doubt a moral Man like Muhammed would be mentioned in such a book.  Its probably mere coincidence and really is in my opinion disrespectful to the Prophet Muhammed.  I can understand the interpretations of him as the Comforter foretold by Jesus in the New Testament.  Or the Prophet like unto Moses promised in the Old Testament.  But if you've ever read the Song of Solomon....this is not a place to find references to pious and morally upright Prophets.

Agreed and that is not the place to find the prophet foretold. You guys at LDS are well-read.

Patty,

"The Song is not referring to Mohammed."

Correct.

BMZ

Sawtul - I know that muslims are constantly trying to find mention of Muhammad in the Bible, but this may be the most outlandish attempt I've come across.  The word in question is machmad, pronounced makh-mawd'.  Its meaning is given as:-

"delightful, hence a delight, that is, object of affection or desire:- beloved, desire, goodly, pleasant (thing)"

My information is that it occurs 13 times in the Old Testament, in these verses:-

Song of Songs 5: 16

1 Kings 20: 6

Lamentations 1: 10, 1: 11, 2: 4

2 Chronicles 36: 19

Ezekiel 24: 16, 24: 21, 24: 25

Hosea 9: 6, 9: 16

Joel 3: 5

Isaiah 64: 11

The word is usually translated as pleasant or goodly.  I wonder why you have not referred to these other scriptures to back up your claim.  After all, if Muhammad is mentioned by name 13 times in the Bible, this should be front page news, I think.  Is it perhaps because you know that your claim is without foundation?

There is something else.  Makh-mawd' is basically an adjective, meaning delightful, goodly, pleasant. (Now I know that adjectives can sometimes be used as nouns, as in the famous film The good, the bad and the ugly, but it is an adjective).  The name Muhammad, on the other hand is a noun, or rather a noun phrase which means (so muslims have assured me) the praised One.  So it is a different meaning, and a different part of speech to makh-mawd'

Doo-bop wrote: The word in question is machmad, pronounced makh-mawd'.

Yes but the Vowels were added later, so the original was simply MHMD. By adding vowels you can make it into "Mahmad" (Machmad) or "Mohammad" (Mochammad). The H (Ch) is the equivalent of the H used in Arabic for "Mohammad" because as in Hebrew, Arabic also has two different H sounds which are pronounced a bit differently. So it's the same H and the same consonants, only different vowels, and the vowels were added by Jewish scribes at a much later date.

Also all the physical descriptions given in the verses are Identical to the physical description of prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) given by his Companions and compiled in Hadith books 1200 years ago.

Sawtul - you may have missed my point.  The word occurs 13 times in the Old Testament.  One of these instances is in Hosea 9: 16.  It reads like this:-

Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit:  yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved (fruit) of their womb

Now if this word is, in fact, the name Muhammad, then the verse would read like this:-

Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit:  yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the Muhammad of their womb

I hope you can see that this poses a serious problem for your theory.  The fact is, the word is not the name Muhammad, but merely a Hebrew word which has the meanings I outlined.  If you look at the other verses I listed, still believing that this is Muhammad, you will find his name popping up in all sorts of surprising contexts.

You point to the physical descriptions in the Song.  Well I cant see the relevance at all.  Bear in mind that the Song is basically a story about two people in love.  Of course they will describe themselves as beautifully as they can

Doo-bop wrote: Sawtul - you may have missed my point.  The word occurs 13 times in the Old Testament.  One of these instances is in Hosea 9: 16.  It reads like this:- Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit:  yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved (fruit) of their womb Now if this word is, in fact, the name Muhammad, then the verse would read like this:- Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit:  yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the Muhammad of their womb I hope you can see that this poses a serious problem for your theory.  The fact is, the word is not the name Muhammad, but merely a Hebrew word which has the meanings I outlined.  If you look at the other verses I listed, still believing that this is Muhammad, you will find his name popping up in all sorts of surprising contexts. You point to the physical descriptions in the Song.  Well I cant see the relevance at all.  Bear in mind that the Song is basically a story about two people in love.  Of course they will describe themselves as beautifully as they can

Names have meaning, but that doesnt mean that just because they are sometimes used for their meaning then they were never used as names.

For example, in Arabic we have a name called HASAN.

However, the word HASAN also means GOOD, and it is used in the Qur'an in the context of "GOOD".

In the Islamic Hadith books the word HASAN is also as "Good" but also used for people whose name was Hasan, such as one of the Grandsons of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) whose name was HASAN.

Now by your logic we would have to say that the grandson of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was not called Hasan, but the word "Hasan" is used simply because he was "Good" person !!!

Im sure there are numerous such examples in Hebrew too, as I know Hebrew is very similair to Arabic. Now the point is just because someone's name has a meaning doesnt mean he doesnt exist.

Also, MHMD could sometimes be meant as MOHAMMAD, or MAHAMAD or any other word with the MHMD as consonants. So in some of the other verses it may actually have been MAHAMAD or some other.

But in Shir Hashirim (Son of Songs) it says HE IS MHMD. So it's obviously talking about someone, and it's NOT A WOMAN as even the standard Bible translations say HE and Not SHE.

So it's clearly referring to a MAN who is called MHMD and also HASHIR (The name of the song is SHIR HASHIRim).

And the physical description is EXACTLY like the physical description of prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) as given in AUTHENTIC Islamic Hadith books.

Also as I have already mentioned, Christians and Jews themselves are confused about what this song is about , some say Church, some say God, some say a woman, but intrestingly some Jewish Rabbis said it's talking about the "coming of the Messiah" so they thought that it was talking about the coming of a MAN who was going to come in the future (and Jews believe that the Messiah is a PROPHET, not God).

Ofcourse as I've already pointed out, the Song itself doesnt say it's about the coming of the Messiah, but the fact that some Jewish Rabbis believed it to be, proves that they understood the song to be about the coming of a Prophet.

"Names have meaning, but that doesnt mean that just because they are sometimes used for their meaning then they were never used as names."

So how come you conclude, then, that makh-mawd is Muhammad?  Is it the physical descriptions?  You have nothing else to go on, it would seem.  Let's look at these descriptions, which you claim fit Muhammad exactly.

They don't, of course.  They don't match up at all.  For instance, 5: 10 mentions "white and ruddy".  This is not white as in European white, but fair-skinned.  There is nothing exceptional about fair-skinned Middle-Eastern people contrary to what you say.  "Chiefest among 10 000" - here the woman is simply saying that her beloved is the most handsome and the best, hardly a literal 10 000.

There is likewise nothing exceptional for an Middle-Eastern person to have black hair.  You give quotations claiming that Muhammad's hair did not go white later in life - but it does not say this about the man in the Song of songs....

5: 11 says "his head is as the most fine gold.." - just what does this have to do with having a large head? (which you say Muhammad had)

5: 12 - were his eyes black, or reddish (or both)?

5: 13 refers to the cheeks and the lips of the beloved.  But the islamic quotations you give refer to neither the cheeks nor the lips of Muhammad

5: 14 - "hands as gold rings set with the beryl" - what has this got to do with the "big, soft" hands of Muhammad you gave references for?

It seems to me that whoever is being talked about, it cannot be Muhammad, going by your own quotations.

Incidentally, I would be most interested to know exactly who it is who says that the person being described in these verses is a woman.  It seems to me that you are muddying the waters unnecessarily here by introducing a red herring.  This is something else you will have to prove

Doo-bop wrote: For instance, 5: 10 mentions "white and ruddy". This is not white as in European white, but fair-skinned. There is nothing exceptional about fair-skinned Middle-Eastern people contrary to what you say. "Chiefest among 10 000" - here the woman is simply saying that her beloved is the most handsome and the best, hardly a literal 10 000.

No one said prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was European. I said his whiteness was Exceptional, and the song of songs (Shir Hashirim) also clearly implies that it is something exceptional as it is clearly praising him for it.

Doo-bop wrote: There is likewise nothing exceptional for an Middle-Eastern person to have black hair. You give quotations claiming that Muhammad's hair did not go white later in life - but it does not say this about the man in the Song of songs....

The song implies that his hair is Very dark. The song is actually pointing out things about this man which makes him stand out - so for example it doesnt say "He has two eyes and two ears and a nose" and since having black hair is common among people in the Middle East, the Song is clearly saying that his hair is exceptionallylack, or as it says "black as a raven."

And the fact that the Prophet's hair remained black means that the son ALWAYS applied to him, so even if someone saw him in his sixties it would still be as the Bible said.

Doo-bop wrote: 5: 11 says "his head is as the most fine gold.." - just what does this have to do with having a large head? (which you say Muhammad had)

It doesnt say just "Large" but WELL FORMED. The song is obviously not talking about a Literally Gold colored hair - GOLD is the symbol of PERFECTION. In other words, his head is perfect. And it being large also implies that it stands out in a perfect form.

Doo-bop wrote: 5: 12 - were his eyes black, or reddish (or both)?

The Song says "His eyes are as the eyes of doves ".

If you ask why I quoted his eyes were Black and Red, you probably never seen a Dove's eye. Here's a picture:

http://www.ringneckdove.com/Wilmer's%20WebPage/Slide_Birds_USA/slide_dove_ivory_big_eye.gif - http://www.ringneckdove.com/Wilmer's%20WebPage/Slide_Birds_U SA/slide_dove_ivory_big_eye.gif

"He had Black attractive eyes finely arched by continuous eyebrows." [Zad al Ma`d 2:45]

"Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had a broad face with Reddish (wide) eyes.." [Sahih Muslim 30:5776] (Note: Doves have reddish eyes.)

His eyes were BLACK AND RED, like a Dove's !

Doo-bop wrote: 5: 13 refers to the cheeks and the lips of the beloved. But the islamic quotations you give refer to neither the cheeks nor the lips of Muhammad

It says he was handsome (which includes cheek and lips):

"Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had the most handsome face amongst men." [Sahih Muslim 30:5772]

Also, the verse mentions his sweet smell:

"His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh."

And the Hadith say:

"He (The Prophet, May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also patted my cheek and I experienced a coolness or a fragrance of his hand as if it had been brought out from the scent bag of a
perfumer." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5758]

"I never smelt ambergris or musk as fragrant as the fragrance of the body of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5759]

"I never smelt musk or ambergris and found its fragrance as sweet as the fragrance of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Sahih Muslim 30:5760]

Doo-bop wrote: 5: 14 - "hands as gold rings set with the beryl" - what has this got to do with the "big, soft" hands of Muhammad you gave references for?

This one I dont know, I found on another website, but I think the point is that his hands are praiseworthy and exceptional.

Doo-bop wrote: Incidentally, I would be most interested to know exactly who it is who says that the person being described in these verses is a woman.

A lot of Christians say the song is about a woman as soon as I tell them that it's prophecying the coming of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). But the scholars seem confused wether it is about the Church or God, or the coming of the Messiah.

The song also says that his hair is "Bushy" while the Hadith says:

Also:

"His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars."

"He (The Prophet, May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was innocently bright and had BROAD COUNTENANCE." [Zad al Ma`ad 2:45]

"..my knee touched the thigh of the Prophet of Allah (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The wrapper got aside from his thigh, and I could see its whiteness." [Sahih Muslim 19:4437]

One problem is that, contrary to the Qur'anic claim of Surah 61:6, there is no such statement mentioned by Jesus in the Gospels. To explain this, Muslims generally resort to their usual charge that the Bible has been corrupted. In other words, they claim, among other things, that Jews and Christians removed prophecies of Mohammad from their Scriptures. However, while textual criticism of both Testaments has rendered this claim to be absurd, Mohammad confirmed the integrity of the Bible that existed in his day. Today's Bible is based on manuscripts that predate Mohammad by centuries. Furthermore, we know that the Christians that lived in areas surrounding Arabia were using the same Bible in which we do today. The canons may have differed in minor degrees across the various groups, but each group accepted the same essential books, including the four Gospels.

Some Muslim apologists have suggested that "Holy Spirit"(which is synonymous with "Holy Ghost" and is what we find in the earliest manuscripts) was not in the original text because the Codex Syriacus, a 4th century manuscript of the New Testament translated into the Syrian language, only contains the word "Spirit" rather than "Holy Spirit." However, all of the earlier New Testament manuscripts, including the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, which are still in the original Greek, render "Holy Spirit" in the text rather than just "Spirit." Therefore, by the standards of textual criticism, it would be absurd to allow one later Syrian translation to usurp the testimony of several earlier(and at least a couple of MUCH earlier(2nd century)) manuscripts, some of which are in the original Greek. Plus, as we've shown, the word "spirit" would not lend much credence to the Muslim argument anyway since that word means simply "spirit."

One reason that Muslim apologists use this verse with such fervency is because the word for "Comforter" in Greek, "Paracletos," is very similar in spelling to "Periklytos." "Periklytos" is Greek for "praised one" which is what the name, "Ahmed"(another name for Mohammad) means[12]. Muslims allege that the original text contained the latter word rather than the former. However, this is unfounded speculation because ALL manuscripts of the New Testament that we have today use the former spelling. This, of course, includes the many manuscripts that predate Mohammad's ministry. Christians would obviously have no polemical reason to corrupt the original spelling before Islam and Mohammad existed. It is also sometimes claimed that vowels were not part of the original text(like in the Hebrew Old Testament) and because of this, incorrect vowels were added by later scribes and this is the reason why we find "Paracletos" in the manuscripts rather than "Periklytos." However, this assertion is incorrect as, in fact, the vowels WOULD be included in the original text of ancient Greek[13].

When performing proper exegeses of Scripture, it is imperative to consider all relevant verses. Muslim apologists typically will use verses that they think fits their agenda while ignoring other verses, even when the very next verse in the text provides the death knell to their position. In this case, it is important to consider ALL of the verses John records about the "Paraclete" when determining the latter's identity. Thus, all of these verses are provided below with certain parts of the text highlighted for further discussion.

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him: for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."(John 14:16-17, )

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."(John 14:26, )

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"(John 15:26, )

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."(John 16:7-14, )

Some observations from the verses presented are now in order.

1. Notice in John 14:16 that Jesus says that "another Comforter" will be given. Muslim apologists allege that this proves that the Comforter had to be human since Jesus was human and He considered Himself to be a Comforter. However, this could just as easily be interpreted to conclude that this proves that the Comforter had to be divine since Jesus claimed divinity(John 8:58, 17:5, 14:6-11, etc.).
2. Notice also in John 14:16 that the Comforter would abide with the disciples forever. Not only was Mohammad not born before almost 500 years after the last disciple had died, but Mohammad was on Earth for 62 years, not forever. Muslim apologists cite that Mohammad abides forever by his teachings. However, the text indicates that the Comforter Himself would abide forever and not just His teachings.
3. While John 14:16 is cited in support of the Muslim assertion, the next verse is often ignored. We see in John 14:17 that the world cannot see the Comforter. Since Mohammad was visible, this cannot refer to him.
4. For this observation, we will see how essential it is to display all relevant verses and avoid the use of proof-texting. One of the favorite Muslim assertions that the Comforter cannot refer to the Holy Spirit comes from the following phrase in John 16:7: "�.It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you: but if I depart, I will send him unto you." It is asserted that since the Holy Spirit was already with the disciples(He was with Jesus-see the baptism narratives(like Matthew 3:13-17)), the Comforter could not be the Holy Spirit since Jesus must go away to send the Comforter to them. However, this argument falls since the disciples had yet to receive the Holy Spirit, but did so 10 days after Jesus' ascension into heaven(see Acts 2). Plus, John 14:17 confirms that the Comforter *WAS* with the disciples already! In this verse, we see 3 qualifiers of the Comforter, none of which Mohammad possessed. A) The disciples knew the Comforter. The disciples obviously did not know Mohammad since it was more than a half a millennium later that Mohammad was born. B) The Comforter dwelled with the disciples. Again, this disqualifies Mohammad. C) Finally, the Comforter was to be *in* the disciples. We know that this means literally inside the disciples since the Comforter was already dwelling inside of Jesus. Mohammad, a physical being, obviously could not dwell inside of anyone.
5. It is claimed by at least one Muslim apologist that we are aware of that in John 14:26, the Comforter could not be the Holy Spirit since the verse says that "he will teach you all things." It is asserted that since the Holy Spirit did not teach anything new and Mohammad did that the latter is a better fit for this criterion. However, this assertion is simply false. There are many doctrines expounded by the New Testament writers that were not purported by Christ.

With Respect.

 "And the fact that the Prophet's hair remained black means that the son ALWAYS applied to him, so even if someone saw him in his sixties it would still be as the Bible said."

But this is not true.  We know that Muhammad dyed his hair red, with henna - see Sahih Bukhari vol1book4no.167 (and we know why certain older men do that)

We also know his hair had lice -  see Sahih Bukhari vol9 no.130 - not such a pretty picture

 "It says he was handsome (which includes cheek and lips):"

No, normally very handsome people are not perfect in all their physical attributes

" (The Prophet, May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also patted my cheek and I experienced a coolness or a fragrance of his hand as if it had been brought out from the scent bag of a
perfumer." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5758]

"I never smelt ambergris or musk as fragrant as the fragrance of the body of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5759]

"I never smelt musk or ambergris and found its fragrance as sweet as the fragrance of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Sahih Muslim 30:5760]"

Well, there's no mention of myrrh here....

This one I dont know, I found on another website, but I think the point is that his hands are praiseworthy and exceptional.

Personally, I don't know what you find "praiseworthy" about "big, soft hands"

"A lot of Christians say the song is about a woman as soon as I tell them that it's prophecying the coming of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). But the scholars seem confused wether it is about the Church or God, or the coming of the Messiah."

So you are basically unable to substantiate what you are saying.  The Song is about a man and a woman.  The verses we have been discussing are clearly about the man.  Why you are trying to make out that some people think they are about the woman, goodness alone knows...  Christians view the Song as an allegory about Christ, the Bridegroom, and his bride, the holy church. 

The song also says that his hair is "Bushy" while the Hadith says:"...the hair of the Messenger of Allah (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was THICKER THAN YOUR HAIR AND THEY WERE FINER (than yours)." [Sahih Muslim, 3:642]

Well, I don't know how hair can be thicker than somone else's, and finer at the same time...

"His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars."

"He (The Prophet, May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was innocently bright and had BROAD COUNTENANCE." [Zad al Ma`ad 2:45]

So what does having a "countenance as Lebanon" have to do with having a "broad countenance"?

It seems to me, that far from matching up exactly, which was your claim, the descriptions given in the Song, and those of Muhammad in the various hadith you have quoted, are entirely different.  You are clutching at straws, the word makh-mawd is not the name Muhammad, and the descriptions given are those of the idealised idea of beauty of the time, not specific to Muhammad

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Bismillahirrahmaanerraheem Prophet Mohammad pbuh was mentioned in the Song of Songs (in the Old Testament) which is also known as Song of Solomon. The original name of this song was Shir Hashirim. This is what it says in Hebrew, 5:16 Chiku mamtakim v'khulo machamadim zeh dodi v'zeh re'i b'not yerushalayim In English, 5:16: His conversation is sweetness itself, he is MACHAMADIM, such is my beloved oh daughters of Jerusalem. The word MACHAMADIM: Firstly, the CH used is the same as the H used in arabic for the word MOHAMMAD. The IM at the end is just like the one used for ELOHIM. The IM at the end of ELOHIM is agreed by Jews and most Christians to be a sign of respect, like THE ELOH, or the Great Eloh, or the Majestic Eloh, etc. Hence, the same applies to Machamadim. So the actual word is Machamad, and as we discussed the CH is the same as the H in Mohammad so the word is MAHAMAD! Finally, the vowels are agreed by Biblical scholars to have been inserted much later in history. So the actualy word is MHMD. This is exactly how the word Mohammad is written in Hebrew. In other words, if the Bible was to mention the name of Prophet Mohammad pbuh, it would be mentioned as MHMD, and this is the case in Shir Hashirim. Also, the name of the song is very intresting. The original name was Shir Hashirim, which means Song of Hashirim. The IM as we have already shown is a sign of respect, so it's actually Shir Hashir, meaning Song of Hashir. In Sunan Tirmidhi (a famous Hadith book) we read that one of the names of Prophet Mohammad pbuh was Hashir !!! Shir Hashirim also gives a description of MHMD, which fits in exactly with the description of Prophet Mohammad pbuh as recorded in the Hadith books. If anyone is intrested, I can give more detail. Peace unto those who follow the Guidance

Muslims keep confusing the Islamic "Muhammad" with the Koranic "Muhammad".

The two are not the same.

The Koranic "Muhammad" is NOT a personal name...but, rather, a participle...meaning "a man praised much - praised one".

Checking all 68 root derivatives of the word "Muhammad", as used in the Koran shows that it is ALWAYS used in context of deity.

Always.

Thus, a man being praised (i.e. "Muhammad")...can only be referring to the Biblical Jesus Christ.

Hence, the Koranic "Muhammad" is, in fact, a reference to the Biblical Jesus Christ.

A far cry from the "Muhammad" that Islam wants to put forth.

Quote:-Hence, the Koranic "Muhammad" is, in fact, a reference to the Biblical Jesus Christ.

What about the Quranic "essa ibne Marrium"Jessus Christ, to whom its reffering to?

Doo-bop wrote:  "And the fact that the Prophet's hair remained black means that the son ALWAYS applied to him, so even if someone saw him in his sixties it would still be as the Bible said." But this is not true.  We know that Muhammad dyed his hair red, with henna - see Sahih Bukhari vol1book4no.167 (and we know why certain older men do that) We also know his hair had lice -  see Sahih Bukhari vol9 no.130 - not such a pretty picture

dying means that the hair had another color. So yes it is still true. You do understand the nature of "dying" vs "natural color" and the effect one has on the other?

According to you, God was birthed through a vagina and covered in nasty afterbirth, and God used the toilet, wiped his rear end, stunk, dirtied his diapers, etc, etc. It would seem that your theology puts you in no postition to dictate what is nice and not nice. Lice seems pretty insignificant now yes?

"It says he was handsome (which includes cheek and lips):" No, normally very handsome people are not perfect in all their physical attributes

Petty conjecture. Your opinion does not hold as fact.

" (The Prophet, May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also patted my cheek and I experienced a coolness or a fragrance of his hand as if it had been brought out from the scent bag of a perfumer." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5758] "I never smelt ambergris or musk as fragrant as the fragrance of the body of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5759] "I never smelt musk or ambergris and found its fragrance as sweet as the fragrance of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Sahih Muslim 30:5760]" Well, there's no mention of myrrh here....

There is no explicit verse that says Jesus is God, but you are able to superimpose your beliefs onto implicit verses to make yoru claims about his divinity.

There is no mention of what the exact source of smell was in many of the haidths that discuss his scent.

This one I dont know, I found on another website, but I think the point is that his hands are praiseworthy and exceptional. Personally, I don't know what you find "praiseworthy" about "big, soft hands"

Ok.

"A lot of Christians say the song is about a woman as soon as I tell them that it's prophecying the coming of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). But the scholars seem confused wether it is about the Church or God, or the coming of the Messiah." So you are basically unable to substantiate what you are saying.  The Song is about a man and a woman.  The verses we have been discussing are clearly about the man.  Why you are trying to make out that some people think they are about the woman, goodness alone knows...  Christians view the Song as an allegory about Christ, the Bridegroom, and his bride, the holy church.

Thats a complete distortion of the Song. Jesus nor anything about a trinue God was ever mentioned or thought about in the Hebrew Scriptures. There is not a single prophecy in the Hebrew Scriptures that can explicitly be about God comeing to earth through a woman's womb.

Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know. (Qur'an 2:146)

Intrestingly there is also a story in Islamic history books that some Jewish leaders came to Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and recognised him as described in their books. Then, one of the wives of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) who used to be Jewish heard those men discussing how to conceal this from others !

Now it's intresting that as we have already seen, Jewish scholars in the past believed that this song was a prophecy about the coming of a Messiah. But in its present form, when you put chapter 5 next to the other chapters of the song it seems like some sort of a "love song" which can be interpreted in many different ways. It could be that the original prophecy was made into a love song by mixing it with one. It is also intresting that the original name of the song was SHIR HASHIRIM, but for some reason they mistranslated it into "Song of Solomon".

My question from jews and Christians here is, is this song a "love song" between Solomon and Queen Sheba ? Or is it between Jesus and the Church ? Or God with people ? Or a prophecy about the coming of a Messiah and building of the Third Temple ?

I believe it is about Christ and the Church.  Here is a site which is an easy read (I think), and you enjoy reading it.  Maybe it offers a little insight into the Song of Solomon for you.

The Song of Solomon Commentary
Verse by Verse, http://biblia.com/jesusbible/song61.htm - Chapter 1    http://biblia.com/jesusbible/song62.htm - Chapter 2    http://biblia.com/jesusbible/song63.htm - Chapter 3    http://biblia.com/jesusbible/song2.htm - Chapter 4    http://biblia.com/jesusbible/song65.htm - Chapter 5    http://biblia.com/jesusbible/song66.htm - Chapter 6    http://biblia.com/jesusbible/song4.htm - Chapter 7    http://biblia.com/jesusbible/song68.htm - Chapter 8

The Song of Solomon is nothing but a love song between Almighty God and the Born-Again Christians.

[8] The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
[9] My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
[10] My beloved (Jesus Christ) spake, and said unto me (the Christian believers) , Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
[11] For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
[12] The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
[13] The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.
[14] O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.
[15] Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes.
[16] My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies.
[17] Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my beloved, and be thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether.

Look at verse 16 above and look at the following Words of Jesus to His DISCIPLES:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4835552 - John.14

1. [20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4839550 - John.15

1. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know. (Qur'an 2:146)   Intrestingly there is also a story in Islamic history books that some Jewish leaders came to Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and recognised him as described in their books. Then, one of the wives of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) who used to be Jewish heard those men discussing how to conceal this from others ! Now it's intresting that as we have already seen, Jewish scholars in the past believed that this song was a prophecy about the coming of a Messiah. But in its present form, when you put chapter 5 next to the other chapters of the song it seems like some sort of a "love song" which can be interpreted in many different ways. It could be that the original prophecy was made into a love song by mixing it with one. It is also intresting that the original name of the song was SHIR HASHIRIM, but for some reason they mistranslated it into "Song of Solomon". My question from jews and Christians here is, is this song a "love song" between Solomon and Queen Sheba ? Or is it between Jesus and the Church ? Or God with people ? Or a prophecy about the coming of a Messiah and building of the Third Temple ?

From a jewish point of view it is about the coming back of the children of Israel to their land The comming of the Moshiah (descendent of King David) and the building of the 3rd Temple of King Solomon!!

This is a very important book to us!!!

See http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15780 - http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15780  for the good translation with commentary from rashi

Shir Hashirim - Chapter 4

I did not want to start a new thread, hence I am posting here:

This question is open to all:

mochiah,

Did Jesus carry a staff like Moses did?

I do not know if he carried a staff

but I surely know that g-d didnt transform his staff into a snake that at pharoas illusionist(magician) staff as Moses did with his staff

I surely know that jesus didnt open the sea with his staff as Moses did

Moses and the staff:

Tzipporah, Yithro's daughter, was famous for her fine character and beauty. In Midyan, where she lived with her father and six sisters, people often talked of Tzipporah's kindness and wisdom. Many were the princes who came to Yithro, seeking the hand of his daughter in marriage.

To all suitors Yithro had but one answer: "In my garden there grows a wonderful staff. If your Royal Highness will get it out of the ground, Tzipporah will be yours."

Eagerly the suitor would go into the garden and up to that wonderful staff glittering in the sun with a million colors and hues. His first attempt to pull the staff out of the ground would bring no results. Again and again he would try to pull at the staff with all his might, but of no avail. The staff simply could not be dislodged from the ground. Thus the princes came hopefully, and left abashed and mystified. Tzipporah would often go into the garden, admire the wonderful staff and wonder who her husband would be.

Tzipporah would often go into the garden, admire the wonderful staff and wonder who her husband would beBut how did this wonderful staff come to be there? Well, it is quite a story.

The staff was as old as the world itself. When G-d created the world, He created that wonderful staff out of pure sapphire. On it were engraved the Hebrew letters of G-d's Name, and ten other mysterious letters.

G-d gave this staff to Adam to walk with it in the Garden of Eden. Later it turned up in the hands of the pious Noah, and he passed it on to Shem.

Shem passed it on to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob treasured it greatly, and before Jacob died in Egypt, he gave it to Joseph. When Joseph died, Yithro, who was one of Pharaoh's chief counsellors, took it. Returning to Midyan, Yithro planted it in his garden, and there it stuck in the ground and nobody could get it out again.

When Moses fled from Egypt and finally found refuge in Midyan, in the house of Yithro, he took a walk in the garden and saw the Divine staff. He barely touched it, when the staff almost jumped out of the ground. There he was, holding that Divine staff, and he brought it into the house.

Yithro knew then that Moses was a G-dly man. He offered him to become his son-in-law, and Moses gladly agreed.

It was with this Divine staff that Moses later performed all the miracles in Egypt at G-d's command. With this staff, too, Moses split the Red Sea, and brought water out of the rock.

This Divine staff will turn up again in the hands of Messiah, a descendant of David, who will once again perform wonderful miracles with it at G-d's command, when the hour of Israel's complete Redemption will come.

mochiah wrote: This Divine staff will turn up again in the hands of Messiah, a descendant of David, who will once again perform wonderful miracles with it at G-d's command, when the hour of Israel's complete Redemption will come.

Where is the source for this ? I have not read anything like this in the old Testament, is it in the Talmud ?

Here the staff is mentioned in the 23rd Psalm:

The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters, he restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death (or through the darkest valley),
I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.

Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

Peace be with you always.

Patty wrote: I believe it is about Christ and the Church.

harrdnot wrote: The Song of Solomon is nothing but a love song between Almighty God and the Born-Again Christians.

mochiah wrote: From a jewish point of view it is about the coming back of the children of Israel to their land The comming of the Moshiah (descendent of King David) and the building of the 3rd Temple of King Solomon!!

Hehhehe, thank you for proving my point. Here we have three different interpretations. Oh,and the Freemasons say it's about Hiram Abiff or something.

No your point was that jews today say it is not about the mochiah

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know. (Qur'an 2:146)   Intrestingly there is also a story in Islamic history books that some Jewish leaders came to Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and recognised him as described in their books. Then, one of the wives of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) who used to be Jewish heard those men discussing how to conceal this from others ! Now it's intresting that as we have already seen, Jewish scholars in the past believed that this song was a prophecy about the coming of a Messiah. But in its present form, when you put chapter 5 next to the other chapters of the song it seems like some sort of a "love song" which can be interpreted in many different ways. It could be that the original prophecy was made into a love song by mixing it with one. It is also intresting that the original name of the song was SHIR HASHIRIM, but for some reason they mistranslated it into "Song of Solomon".

You should have said that christians believe it to be just a love song because as I said:

mochiah wrote: From a jewish point of view it is about the coming back of the children of Israel to their land The comming of the Moshiah (descendent of King David) and the building of the 3rd Temple of King Solomon!! This is a very important book to us!!!   See http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15780 - http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15780  for the good translation with commentary from rashi

Once more let me sai this is a very important book to us and has always been!! It is the Songs of Songs !!! Speaking of our deliverence from the wild beasts the return to the land and the coming of King Mochiach!!!(Descendent of King David)

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Patty wrote: I believe it is about Christ and the Church.  harrdnot wrote: The Song of Solomon is nothing but a love song between Almighty God and the Born-Again Christians. mochiah wrote: From a jewish point of view it is about the coming back of the children of Israel to their land The comming of the Moshiah (descendent of King David) and the building of the 3rd Temple of King Solomon!! Hehhehe, thank you for proving my point. Here we have three different interpretations. Oh,and the Freemasons say it's about Hiram Abiff or something.

My statement was just my personal opinion, NOT an interpretation.  I don't pretend to be correct on every issue.  I could possibly be mistaken.  (Who among us is always right?)  Not me, that's for sure.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Im asking, where does it say that the Messiah will carry the staff ? The Pslams simply mentions it.

What do you mean, "it simply mentions it"???  It SAYS "For thou art with me;
Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me."

The Bible in the Psalms clearly states The LORD is my Shepherd, in other words it is speaking of JESUS.  I cannot see how you can dismiss this beautiful Psalm of hope and love so casually. 

Peace be with you.

Something else I found intresting in the same chapter of the Song was that it says in verse 6:

 I opened for my beloved, but my beloved had hidden and was gone; my soul went out when he spoke; I sought him, but found him not; I called him, but he did not answer me.

And then verses 8 and 9 say:

Sawtul Khilafah,

Song of Solomon has nothing to do with Moses, or Jesus or Muhammad or their names.

Solomon is believed to have written it for a maiden whom he wanted to be his queen, at all cost. The maiden loved only her dear shepherd and was not at all shaken by the great temptations and remained faithful to her shepherd.

According to commentary in the Jewish Holy Scriptures, the Jewish tradition does not see the erotica in it but sees in every line a symbol of divine love which sanctifies human relationship. Jewish tradition also finds in this book an allegory of God's eternal guardianship over Israel.

The New Tesatment writers do not talk of the song but the Christians do not want to be left behind and find an allegory for relationship of Jesus and his church or his believers.

Basing on above, you can say that Solomon wrote the song to foretell and show God's love for Muhammad and his followers.   

BMZ

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Im asking, where does it say that the Messiah will carry the staff ?

Psalms Chapter 110

 

2. The staff of your might the Lord will send from Zion; rule in the midst of your enemies.

 

Yeshayahu - Chapter 11 1. And a shoot shall spring forth from the stem of Jesse, and a twig shall sprout from his roots. And a shoot shall spring forth from the stem of Jesse And if you say, �Here are consolations for Hezekiah and his people, that they shall not fall into his hands. Now what will be with the exile that was exiled to Halah and Habor, is their hope lost?� It is not lost! Eventually, the King Messiah shall come and redeem them. a shoot [This is symbolic of] the royal scepter. and a twig an expression of a sapling. and a twig shall sprout from its roots and the entire section, and at the end (v. 11), "And it shall come to pass, that on that day, the Lord shall apply His hand again�[from Assyria]� Hence, [it is obvious] that this prophecy was said to console those exiled to Assyria. 2. And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and heroism, a spirit of knowledge and fear of the Lord. 3. And he shall be animated by the fear of the Lord, and neither with the sight of his eyes shall he judge, nor with the hearing of his ears shall he chastise. And he shall be animated by the fear of the Lord He shall be filled with the fear of the Lord. [ed enos mera il luy in O.F., and He shall be enlivened.] and neither with the sight of his eyes shall he judge For, with the wisdom of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is within him, will he know and understand who is innocent and who is guilty. 4. And he shall judge the poor justly, and he shall chastise with equity the humble of the earth, and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips he shall put the wicked to death. with equity This is an expression of mildness and tenderness. and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth As the Targum states: And he shall smite the sinful of the earth. and with the breath of his lips Jonathan [renders:] And with the speech of his lips. 5. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faith the girdle of his loins. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins Jonathan [renders:] And the righteous shall surround him; i.e., they will cleave to him like a girdle. 6. And a wolf shall live with a lamb, and a leopard shall lie with a kid; and a calf and a lion cub and a fatling [shall lie] together, and a small child shall lead them. and a fatling a fattened ox [following Jonathan]. 7. And a cow and a bear shall graze together, their children shall lie; and a lion, like cattle, shall eat straw. 8. And an infant shall play over the hole of an old snake and over the eyeball of an adder, a weaned child shall stretch forth his hand. shall play Heb. �����������, shall play. over the hole of an old snake over a hole in the ground in which the snake makes its nest [krot in O.F.], a cave. an old snake ������. A snake, when it ages, becomes deaf and is called ������. From then on, it cannot be charmed; as it is said (Psalms 58:6): "Who will not hearken to the voice of charmers." and over the eyeball of a venomous snake Jonathan renders: the eyeballs of venomous snakes [�������� from ����, light]. Menahem (Machbereth Menachem p. 32) interpreted it as an expression of a hole, namely holes in the ground. Comp. (Gen. 11:28) "The valley of the Chaldees (����) " ; (infra 24:15) "In the valleys (����������) honor the Lord." a weaned child a child weaned from his mother�s breasts. shall stretch forth his hand Heb. �����. Jonathan renders: shall stretch forth his hands (sic). Comp. (Ezekiel 7:7) "The joyful call (���) of the mountains, also (infra 16:9)" The cry (������)," which is an expression of raising the voice. This, too, is an expression of raising, and the final [letter] �heh� appears in it as a radical which sometimes falls out, like ������ (made), ������ (built), ����� (acquired). 9. They shall neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mount, for the land shall be full of knowledge of the Lord as water covers the sea bed. knowledge of the Lord [lit.] to know the Lord. 10. And it shall come to pass on that day, that the root of Jesse, which stands as a banner for peoples, to him shall the nations inquire, and his peace shall be [with] honor. as a banner for peoples that peoples should raise a banner to gather to him. 11. And it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord shall continue to apply His hand a second time to acquire the rest of His people, that will remain from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Sumeria and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. a second time Just as he acquired them from Egypt, when their redemption was absolute, without subjugation, but the redemption preceding the building of the Second Temple is not counted, since they were subjugated to Cyrus. and from the islands of the sea the islands of the Kittim, the Romans, the descendants of Esau. 12. And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth. And he shall raise a banner Perka, perche in O.F. [i.e., the verse is literally referring to the pole upon which the banner is attached.] And it shall be for a sign to gather to him and to bring the exiles of Israel to Him as a present. 13. And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim. Ephraim shall not envy Judah The Messiah, the son of David, and the Messiah, the son of Joseph, shall not envy each other. 14. And they shall fly of one accord against the Philistines in the west, together they shall plunder the children of the East; upon Edom and Moab shall they stretch forth their hand, and the children of Ammon shall obey them. And they shall fly of one accord against the Philistines in the west Heb. �������. Israel will fly and run of one accord against the Philistines who are in the west of Eretz Israel and conquer their land. [������, lit. a shoulder, is used in this case to denote unity. The word ������, also lit. a shoulder, is used in a similar sense.] Comp. (Hoshea 6:9) "They murder on the way in unison (��������) " ; (Zeph. 3:9) "One accord (������ �����)." And so did Jonathan render it: And they shall join in one accord to smite the Philistines who are in the west. and the children of Ammon shall obey them As the Targum states: Will hearken to them. They will accept their commandments over them. 15. And the Lord shall dry up the tongue of the Egyptian Sea, and He shall lift His hand over the river with the strength of His wind, and He shall beat it into seven streams, and He shall lead [the exiles] with shoes. And� shall dry up [lit. shall cut off] to dry it, so that the exiles of Israel will pass through it from Egypt. over the river The Euphrates River, for the exiles from Assyria to cross. with the strength of His wind Heb. ��������. This is hapax legomenon in Scripture, and according to the context it can be interpreted as "with the strength of His wind." into seven streams into seven segments, for the aforementioned seven exiles: from Assyria and from Egypt, etc. Those from the islands of the sea are not from that side. and He shall lead the exiles within it. with shoes on dry land. 16. And there shall be a highway for the remnant of His people who remain from Assyria, as there was for Israel on the day they went up from the land of Egypt. And there shall be a highway in the midst of the water for the remnant of His people.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15942 -

Apple Pie wrote: Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Bismillahirrahmaanerraheem Prophet Mohammad pbuh was mentioned in the Song of Songs (in the Old Testament) which is also known as Song of Solomon. The original name of this song was Shir Hashirim. This is what it says in Hebrew, 5:16 Chiku mamtakim v'khulo machamadim zeh dodi v'zeh re'i b'not yerushalayim In English, 5:16: His conversation is sweetness itself, he is MACHAMADIM, such is my beloved oh daughters of Jerusalem. The word MACHAMADIM: Firstly, the CH used is the same as the H used in arabic for the word MOHAMMAD. The IM at the end is just like the one used for ELOHIM. The IM at the end of ELOHIM is agreed by Jews and most Christians to be a sign of respect, like THE ELOH, or the Great Eloh, or the Majestic Eloh, etc. Hence, the same applies to Machamadim. So the actual word is Machamad, and as we discussed the CH is the same as the H in Mohammad so the word is MAHAMAD! Finally, the vowels are agreed by Biblical scholars to have been inserted much later in history. So the actualy word is MHMD. This is exactly how the word Mohammad is written in Hebrew. In other words, if the Bible was to mention the name of Prophet Mohammad pbuh, it would be mentioned as MHMD, and this is the case in Shir Hashirim. Also, the name of the song is very intresting. The original name was Shir Hashirim, which means Song of Hashirim. The IM as we have already shown is a sign of respect, so it's actually Shir Hashir, meaning Song of Hashir. In Sunan Tirmidhi (a famous Hadith book) we read that one of the names of Prophet Mohammad pbuh was Hashir !!! Shir Hashirim also gives a description of MHMD, which fits in exactly with the description of Prophet Mohammad pbuh as recorded in the Hadith books. If anyone is intrested, I can give more detail. Peace unto those who follow the Guidance   Muslims keep confusing the Islamic "Muhammad" with the Koranic "Muhammad". The two are not the same. The Koranic "Muhammad" is NOT a personal name...but, rather, a participle...meaning "a man praised much - praised one". Checking all 68 root derivatives of the word "Muhammad", as used in the Koran shows that it is ALWAYS used in context of deity. Always. Thus, a man being praised (i.e. "Muhammad")...can only be referring to the Biblical Jesus Christ. Hence, the Koranic "Muhammad" is, in fact, a reference to the Biblical Jesus Christ. A far cry from the "Muhammad" that Islam wants to put forth.

Muhammad had no oil rubbed into his hair. Muhammad was not the oil-annointed one, Jesus was. Qur'aanic Jesus also had no oil rubbed into his hair. The biblical Jesus had and hence was called the annointed one. Muhammad was the Praised one by the Lord Almighty. If Muhammad had the oil rubbed into his hair, the Jews and the people would have considered the Messiah but an Arab one.  

bmzsp wrote: Solomon is believed to have written it for a maiden whom he wanted to be his queen, at all cost. The maiden loved only her dear shepherd and was not at all shaken by the great temptations and remained faithful to her shepherd.

great, here we have another interpretation. So now all the possible interpretations that I mentioned have been posted by different people!

Patty wrote: I believe it is about Christ and the Church.

harrdnot wrote: The Song of Solomon is nothing but a love song between Almighty God and the Born-Again Christians.

mochiah wrote: From a jewish point of view it is about the coming back of the children of Israel to their land The comming of the Moshiah (descendent of King David) and the building of the 3rd Temple of King Solomon!!

On 14th of March 2007 I said:

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: My question from jews and Christians here is, is this song a "love song" between Solomon and Queen Sheba ? Or is it between Jesus and the Church ? Or God with people ? Or a prophecy about the coming of a Messiah and building of the Third Temple ?

Sawtul Khilafah wrote:
The original name was Shir Hashirim, which means Song of Hashirim. The IM as we have already shown is a sign of respect, so it's actually Shir Hashir, meaning Song of Hashir.
------------------------------------------------------------ -------

Small correction in hebrew

Shir hashirim is lit. song of the songs

ha  means of the

shir means song

im is plural  s in english

shirim means songs

Hashir means the song

hashirim means the songs

mochiah wrote: Sawtul Khilafah wrote: The original name was Shir Hashirim, which means Song of Hashirim. The IM as we have already shown is a sign of respect, so it's actually Shir Hashir, meaning Song of Hashir. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------- Small correction Shir hashirim is lit. song of the songs ha  means of the shir means song im is plural  s in english shirim means songs Hashir means the song hashirim means the songs

So -im is indicative of a plurality, not a "sign of respect".  Of course it is the same with elohim.  Sawtul, it looks like your theory is now completely destroyed.  Seems like a pretty big correction to me, Mochiah

Doo-bop wrote: So -im is indicative of a plurality, not a "sign of respect".  Of course it is the same with elohim.  Sawtul, it looks like your theory is now completely destroyed

So youre saying Elohim means GODS ?

The "im" is plural but also a sign of respect, it is like the majestic WE as in when Kings or Queens says "We are not ammused".

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Doo-bop wrote: So -im is indicative of a plurality, not a "sign of respect".  Of course it is the same with elohim.  Sawtul, it looks like your theory is now completely destroyed So youre saying Elohim means GODS ? The "im" is plural but also a sign of respect, it is like the majestic WE as in when Kings or Queens says "We are not ammused".

No, elohim does not mean Gods, it refers to God.  If you can supply any evidence for the "royal" we in the Bible, I'd be interested to hear of it.

Doo-bop wrote: No, elohim does not mean Gods, it refers to God.  If you can supply any evidence for the "royal" we in the Bible, I'd be interested to hear of it.

If Elohim means One God, what makes Hashirim or Mohammadim plural ?

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Doo-bop wrote: No, elohim does not mean Gods, it refers to God.  If you can supply any evidence for the "royal" we in the Bible, I'd be interested to hear of it. If Elohim means One God, what makes Hashirim or Mohammadim plural ?

You're trying to change the subject now.  I merely mentioned another example of a plurality.  If you're finished trying to prove Muhammad in the Bible, then open up another thread on your new topic

Doo-bop wrote: You're trying to change the subject now.  I merely mentioned another example of a plurality.  If you're finished trying to prove Muhammad in the Bible, then open up another thread on your new topic

new topic??? stop playing dumb

examples of single and plural in hebrew I speak it all day long btw

davar means thing dvarim means things

bakbouk means bottle bakboukim means bottles

pah means bin pahim means bins

et means pen etim means pens

mahchev means computer mahchevim means computers

daf means sheet (of paper) dapim means (sheets of paper)

kadour means ball kadourim means balls

....

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: So youre saying Elohim means GODS ?

No in hebew elim would be gods

no really not

One of the theories behind the plurality of elloh is that before that people believed in many gods and this is a psichologic way to tell people that all gods they believed in are ONE G*D

That is why the torah starts with the creation of earth and explains that God created everything the moon the sun the animals,...

and i believe that the reason for we in the qur'an is the same its to tell the pagans of arabia of that time that their gods are ONE

would it be possible grammaticly to put allah in plural in arrabic?

people have been attacking israelites(jews) for centuries on the plurality of the word eloh telling us that we are pagans

even now christian still insist that the plurality of the word eloh proves their theory about the trinity

Just type elohim in google you will see

the plural for a masculin word in hebrew ends with im

the plural for a feminine word in hebrew ends with ot

ben means boy banim means boys

bat means girl banot means girls

mochiah wrote: people have been attacking israelites(jews) for centuries on the plurality of the word eloh telling us that we are pagans

Well if you think Elohim means GODS, then yes you are a pagan!

"even now christian still insist that the plurality of the word eloh proves their theory about the trinity"

Not Catholic Christians.  We believe there is no absolute proof regarding the Holy Trinity.  It must be taken by FAITH.  As many things regarding religion are.  The Trinity is a mystery.  I know what I believe and why I believe it.  But no one can PROVE the Trinity.  I could (and have) offered many reasons why I believe in it, but I cannot prove it to you.

Peace be with you.

Patty

To whom this may concern

The Jews are fiercely monotheistic like Muslims.

Elohim or Eloh or Elah does not matter. What matters is that the Jews believe in One God.

Christians also fiercely defend that they are fiercely monotheistic but they are unable to explain.

When Jesus said, "Eloi, Eloi" or "Eli, Eli" or "Elahi, Elahi", he also showed that he was fiercely monotheistic.

"Let us make man in our own image." still shows only one God to the Jews and Muslims but it tells the Christians that there were more Gods and the team of Gods were discussing about creating man in their own image. It also proves that the Gods were like men.

When queen Victoria said,"We are not amused", she was not alone. There were two other Victorias with her.

Have a nice weekend everybody. 

bmzsp wrote: I did not want to start a new thread, hence I am posting here: This question is open to all: mochiah, Did Jesus carry a staff like Moses did?

Why did you ask me that question?

mochiah wrote: bmzsp wrote: I did not want to start a new thread, hence I am posting here: This question is open to all: mochiah, Did Jesus carry a staff like Moses did?   Why did you ask me that question?

Prophet followed Moses and carried a staff. I did not see Jesus carrying one. I made a mistake. I should not have addressed it to you. Sorry about that. My sincere apologies.

BMZ

So, Sawtul, it looks as though you have succeeded in changing the topic of the thread.  That is a pity, as I was hoping to hear more proofs of Muhammad in the Bible

Doo-bop wrote: So, Sawtul, it looks as though you have succeeded in changing the topic of the thread.  That is a pity, as I was hoping to hear more proofs of Muhammad in the Bible

What on earth are you talking about? I was discussing the "im" in the Biblical prophecy as it says "MHMDim". I said that the "im" is not plural in the sense of more than one person because it is also used for ELOHim.

There is also a very intresting prophecy in the book of Isaiah:

(Bible: Old Testament: Isaiah 21: 6-17)

The above Prophecy mentions the coming of riders on horses, then the rider of an ass/donkey and then the rider of a Camel.

There is no doubt that Cyrus and his army rode on horses, and ofcourse one of their greatest victories was the conquest of Babylon and freeing the Jews from it's idol worshipping oppressive rulers.

The one riding an ass is clearly the Messiah, 'Eesa (Jesus) peace be upon him. (There are more prophecies in the Old Testament that mention the Messiah coming, riding on an Ass/Donkey.)
There is some explanation given regarding the rider on the Ass:

"The burden of Dumah. Unto me is [one] calling from Seir `Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?'

Intrestingly, in Deutronomy verse 31, there is another prophecy regarding Jesus ('Eesa) which also associates him with Seir.

Finally there is a prophecy about the coming of a man from Arabia, riding on a Camel:

And the remnant of the number of bow-men, The mighty of the sons of Kedar are few, For Jehovah, God of Israel, hath spoken!

It mentions an Arab fugitive who must be helped by other tribes. This fugitive has fled from other Arabs (Kedar) who wanted to kill him. This prophecy sounds just like the historical Hijrah of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) who left Meccah after it's people tried to kill him, and went to Madinah along with Hazrat Abu Bakr, both riding on Camels. When they entered Madinah, the people there helped him, gave him food and water, as Prophecised. It also prophecises the fall of Kedar (those Arabs who opposed the "fugitive").

The Bible makes it clear that Kedar and Tema (the two tribes mentioned in Isaiah 21) are the sons of Ishmael:

and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, 15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah.

So we conclude that Isaiah chapter 21 is actually prophecising the coming of Cyrus/DhulQarnayn, Jesus/'Eesa, and Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon them) who came in the exact same order as mentioned in the prophecy.

The harsh prophecy of the western desert This prophecy refers to Babylonia, as is delineated therein. If you ask, Did he not already prophesy about it (supra 13): "On a tranquil mountain raise a banner," and the entire chapter? sometimes the prophecy comes into his mouth today in one manner, and later in another manner.

The harsh prophecy of the western desert Jonathan paraphrases: A harsh prophecy concerning the armies that come from the desert, as numerous as the waters of the sea.

like tempests in arid land, to pass Like a tempest that whirls in an arid land, that raises much dust.

to pass So will many camps pass to come upon Babylon.

from the desert they shall come to them (lit.. to her).

from an awesome land Jonathan renders: From a land where mighty deeds have been performed. It is also possible to explain that it is a place of snakes and scorpions, as it is said (Deut. 8:15): "The great and awesome desert."

A harsh prophecy The prophet says, "This harsh prophecy concerning Babylon was told to me."

the traitor shall be betrayed Jonathan renders: The robbers are robbed and the plunderers are plundered. The Hebrew wording, according to the Targum, is to be explained thus: The traitor another will come and betray him; and the plunderer another will come and plunder him. These are Persia and Media, who rob and plunder Babylon, who, until now plundered and robbed all the countries.

march, Elam and come upon them (lit., her).

besiege, O Media (������). I.e., besiege Babylon with a siege. Comp. (II Sam. 22:3) "God is my rock (������)." The accent is on the latter syllable, on the "resh," whereas, in this case, the accent is on the first syllable, like "rise (������)", "return (�������)."

all sighs have I brought to an end (���������). (This is) not (spelled with a) "Mappiq heh," (which would mean "her sigh") for this is like "all sighs in the world," and it is an expression denoting a great sigh of many people (sospiradic in O.F.). All sighs have I brought to an end, for the world was sighing because of the yoke of the kingdom of Babylon; now I have brought it to an end.

my loins are filled with trembling The prophet is merciful and sighs over the retribution meted out to the nations. This is the Midrash Aggadah (Tan., beginning of Balak). According to its simple meaning, however, the prophet is reciting the lamentation and the mourning as though this were Babylonia lamenting.

pangs (�������), an expression denoting trembling and pains. And our Rabbis said: A woman has doors and hinges (�������) on her womb just as the doors of a house have hinges (Bechoroth 45a).

I became confused This is a malady known as ������, convulsions, in the language of the Sages.

fright (����������). fright.

the evening of my desire The night that I longed for, for rejoicing and for a banquet. In the Book of Josipon we find that he was happy since his troops had defeated the army of Persia. (Book 1, ch. 5) That night He made for me into trembling, as it is said (Dan. 5:1): "King Belshazzar made a great feast� They drank wine�(verse 4). On that very night, King Belshazzar was slain�(verse 30)." (6:1) "And Darius the Mede received the kingdom."

setting up the lamp (���������), Set up the lamp. In Gen. Rabbah (63:14) we learn that people call a lamp ��������.

eating, drinking And in the midst of the eating and the drinking, they cried, "Arise, princes!"

anoint a shield They were shields of boiled leather, and they would anoint them with oil so that the weapons would glide off. The same is mentioned concerning Saul (II Sam. 1:21): "For there the shield of the mighty was rejected." It rejected its anointing and did not absorb it, and Saul�s shield became as though it was not anointed with oil.

Go set up the lookout One of your disciples is destined to complain about My attribute, concerning the long prosperity of Babylon, and that was Habakkuk who made a circle and stood inside it, and said (Habakkuk 2:1), "On my watch will I stand, and I will look out to see what He will speak within me." Said the Holy One, blessed be He, "Put up that lookout and promise him in My Name that he will stand on his watch and what he sees in the downfall of Babylon he will tell."

And he shall see a chariot and I will show him there a sort of chariot with a pair of riders, one riding a donkey and one riding a camel, and that is a sign of Persia and Media.

and he shall listen attentively And there he shall hear in his prophecy a representation of the mighty rumbling and stirring of armies.

And the lion called That is Habakkuk. ������� (lion) has the same numerical value as Habakkuk. Isaiah prophesied that Habakkuk was destined to pray for this and say the following.

on the watchtower, O Lord O Lord, my God, I always stand on the watchtower to inform me about this.

And behold this is coming When he prays concerning this, he will see sort of a chariot of men, etc.

Babylon has fallen, yea, it has fallen Jonathan renders: Has fallen and is also destined to fall. This denotes two downfalls in two consecutive years, first through Media and Persia, and in the second year, through Heaven, as it is stated (supra 13:19): "And Babylon, the beauty of the kingdoms, the glory of the pride of the Chaldees, shall be like God�s overturning of Sodom�" And so we find in Seder Olam (ch. 28): And in that year the news came concerning Darius, and after him, in the year, the news, "And Babylon, the beauty of the kingdoms� shall be like the overturning, etc." (supra 13:19).

My threshed grain and the product of my threshing floor My hallowed grain, the stack of wheat which I was commanded by the Holy Spirit to rectify you and lead you on the straight path, like a man who threshes and winnows his grain on the threshing floor.

What I heard from Him I have related to you.

The harsh prophecy of Dumah That is Edom, and so does Scripture say (Ezekiel 27:32): "Who is like Tyre, like Dumah in the midst of the sea?"

To Me one calls from Seir Said the Holy One, blessed be He: "To Me the prophet or the angel calls from the yoke of the kingdom of Seir."

Watchman, what will be of the night? Watcher of Israel, what will be of this night and this darkness?

Said the watchman The Holy One, blessed be He.

Morning has come I have the ability to make the morning shine for you.

and also night is prepared for the wicked at the time of the end.

if you will request, request If you make your request to hasten the end of the exile.

return and come in repentance.

The harsh prophecy concerning Arabia About the Arabs.

In the forest in Arabia did you lodge I saw what you did when Assyria exiled my people, and they begged their captors to lead them through your land, since you are the descendants of their uncles, perhaps you would have mercy on them, and you were going out and lodging in the forest, the road where the caravans pass.

the roads of your cousins the children of your uncle.

Toward the thirsty it is customary to bring water, but you, the inhabitants of the land of Tema, did not do so, but with his bread they came before the wanderer; they brought them sorts of salty foods and blown up flasks full of air, and he would eat and ask to drink, and he would put the opening of the flask into his mouth, and the air would go into his innards, and he would die. Another explanation of "Toward the thirsty they bring water," is as follows: I did not do so to your forefather, Ishmael; when he was thirsty, I revealed to him a well of water.

Since because of the swords they wandered (I.e.,) my people (wandered).

the outstretched sword (���������) , spread over the surface of the earth, as (I Sam. 30:16) "And behold, they were scattered (����������) over the entire landscape," (II Sam. 5:18) "And spread out (��������������) in the Valley of Rephaim." Another explanation is that ��������� is like ���������, sharp. All letters whose sources are close to being from one place, (i.e., from one speech organ,) are interchangeable with one another, the �nun� with the �lamed,� as in the case stated (in Nehemiah 13:7): "To make him a chamber (���������)," like ���������.

like the year of a hireling I will be exact with them to limit the time like a hireling, hired by years, who is exact with the time of the completion of his year.

And the rest the remnant.

the bows of the heroes of the children of Kedar Archers, for they are like their forefather, (Ishmael,) about whom it is stated (Gen. 21: 2): "And he was an archer."

Doo-bop wrote: Andalus, you are missing my point.  The claims made by Sawtul in this thread are 1. that Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5: 16 and that 2. the descriptions of the man in verses 10-16 of that chapter match exactly with those available descriptions of Muhammad found in islamic scriptures.  I am simply saying, for the reasons I've given, that neither assertion is true.

And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.

Andalus wrote: And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.

No not with less evidence , with evidence that goes against their belief!!!!

The whole bible(tanach) preaches monoteisme and goes against that roman pagan belief that jesus is g*d!!!!!!!!

Jesus never meant to become a false diety!!! He believed that the tanach could be exported to non Israelites!!! He was a Profet as Mohamad for non Israelites!! To bring us closer to the messianic age!!

Because it is needed that people would be monotheistic and would know the principles of the tanach to bring us to that point that all people of the world would be united!

Imagine the world today without jesus or mohamad: All the world would still believe in plural gods!! Would not have heard of all the Profets,....

Imagine the messiah coming then and him trying to explain!!!

It would have been much much more harder for people to understand!! Than it is now and look how hard it is even now!!

Andalus wrote: Doo-bop wrote: Andalus, you are missing my point.  The claims made by Sawtul in this thread are 1. that Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5: 16 and that 2. the descriptions of the man in verses 10-16 of that chapter match exactly with those available descriptions of Muhammad found in islamic scriptures.  I am simply saying, for the reasons I've given, that neither assertion is true. And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.

I think you will find, Andalus, that the thread is about Muhammad in the Bible, not Jesus 

Doo-bop wrote: Andalus wrote: Doo-bop wrote: Andalus, you are missing my point.  The claims made by Sawtul in this thread are 1. that Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5: 16 and that 2. the descriptions of the man in verses 10-16 of that chapter match exactly with those available descriptions of Muhammad found in islamic scriptures.  I am simply saying, for the reasons I've given, that neither assertion is true. And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.   I think you will find, Andalus, that the thread is about Muhammad in the Bible, not Jesus

It does not have to be to show that the fallacy of special pleading has been commited.

But, I say that I do not agree with some of the arguments used to make the case by some Muslims. I think you and I can agree on that.

Andalus wrote: Doo-bop wrote: Andalus, you are missing my point.  The claims made by Sawtul in this thread are 1. that Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5: 16 and that 2. the descriptions of the man in verses 10-16 of that chapter match exactly with those available descriptions of Muhammad found in islamic scriptures.  I am simply saying, for the reasons I've given, that neither assertion is true. And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.

Is it a greater point?  You, after all, presumably believe this:-

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel......"

--Quran 7: 157 

In which case, perhaps you could enlighten us as to where, exactly, this mention is to be found

Doo-bop wrote: Andalus wrote: Doo-bop wrote: Andalus, you are missing my point.  The claims made by Sawtul in this thread are 1. that Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5: 16 and that 2. the descriptions of the man in verses 10-16 of that chapter match exactly with those available descriptions of Muhammad found in islamic scriptures.  I am simply saying, for the reasons I've given, that neither assertion is true. And you are missing an even greater point: You are willing to accept Jesus as a god-man prophecised about in the Hebrew Scriptures with even less evidence.   Is it a greater point?  You, after all, presumably believe this:- "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel......" --Quran 7: 157  In which case, perhaps you could enlighten us as to where, exactly, this mention is to be found

And what?

1)      If this was implausible, even in the slightest way, then why did this not become a point that the many detractors could have used against the claims of the prophet (saw) when this verse was revealed? There were Christians and Jews, and no where in the Hadith literature do we find this as a point of contention.

2)      The does not necessarily state that his name will be mentioned, it only states that his claim will be found. This claim includes the attributes of prophethood.

3)      Since the idea of what constitutes a bible is not necessarily the same thing as what people had in the 6^th and 7^th century, one can assume that the bible before them is the same as it was in the 6^th and 7^th century.

Doo-bop wrote: Is it a greater point?  You, after all, presumably believe this:- "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel......" --Quran 7: 157  In which case, perhaps you could enlighten us as to where, exactly, this mention is to be found

The correct translation for the Arabic word "ummi" (unlettered) used in the verse is said to be GENTILE (non-Israelite).

But the manner in which this expression is thrown into this verse and the next raises the conjecture, which with us amounts to an opinion, that this appellation came originally from the Jews, who used it in expressing their contempt for the Gentile prophet, the term Ummi meaning Gentile in the technical sense. (Wherry, A Comprehensive Commentary on the Qur'an, Vol. 2, p. 237).

Another writer says much the same thing:

Postulating that prophecy was the exclusive privilege of Israel, they refused to recognise the claims of the omni, 'gentile' prophet. (Lammens, Islam: Beliefs and Institutions, p. 28).

Even Jewish Rabbis who have studied the Quran say this:

Rabbi Abraham Geiger, however, has clearly shown that the word rendered unlettered in this verse really means "Gentile", as opposed to Jewish. (Tisdall, The Original Sources of the Qur'an, p. 131).
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.And I mentioned on my last post the prophecy in Isaiah Chapter 21:

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: There is also a very intresting prophecy in the book of Isaiah:   For thus said the Lord unto me: `Go, station the watchman, That which he seeth let him declare.' And he hath seen a chariot -- a couple of horsemen, The rider of an ass, the rider of a camel, And he hath given attention -- He hath increased attention! And he crieth -- a lion, `On a watch-tower my lord, I am standing continually by day, And on my ward I am stationed whole nights. And lo, this, the chariot of a man is coming, A couple of horsemen.' And he answereth and saith: `Fallen, fallen hath Babylon, And all the graven images of her gods He hath broken to the earth. O my threshing, and the son of my floor, That which I heard from Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, I have declared to you!' The burden of Dumah. Unto me is [one] calling from Seir `Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?' The watchman hath said, `Come hath morning, and also night, If ye inquire, inquire ye, turn back, come.' The burden on Arabia. In a forest in Arabia ye lodge, O travellers of Dedanim. To meet the thirsty brought water have Inhabitants of the land of Tema, With his bread they came before a fugitive. For from the face of destructions they fled, From the face of a stretched-out sword, And from the face of a trodden bow, And from the face of the grievousness of battle. For thus said the Lord unto me: `Within a year, as years of a hireling, Consumed hath been all the honour of Kedar. And the remnant of the number of bow-men, The mighty of the sons of Kedar are few, For Jehovah, God of Israel, hath spoken!' (Bible: Old Testament: Isaiah 21: 6-17) The above Prophecy mentions the coming of riders on horses, then the rider of an ass/donkey and then the rider of a Camel. " A couple of horsemen.' And he answereth and saith: `Fallen, fallen hath Babylon, And all the graven images of her gods He hath broken to the earth. O my threshing, and the son of my floor, That which I heard from Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, I have declared to you!' " There is no doubt that Cyrus and his army rode on horses, and ofcourse one of their greatest victories was the conquest of Babylon and freeing the Jews from it's idol worshipping oppressive rulers.   The one riding an ass is clearly the Messiah, 'Eesa (Jesus) peace be upon him. (There are more prophecies in the Old Testament that mention the Messiah coming, riding on an Ass/Donkey.) There is some explanation given regarding the rider on the Ass: "The burden of Dumah. Unto me is [one] calling from Seir `Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?' The watchman hath said, `Come hath morning, and also night, If ye inquire, inquire ye, turn back, come.' " Intrestingly, in Deutronomy verse 31, there is another prophecy regarding Jesus ('Eesa) which also associates him with Seir.   Finally there is a prophecy about the coming of a man from Arabia, riding on a Camel: The burden on Arabia. In a forest in Arabia ye lodge, O travellers of Dedanim. To meet the thirsty brought water have Inhabitants of the land of Tema, With his bread they came before a fugitive. For from the face of destructions they fled, From the face of a stretched-out sword, And from the face of a trodden bow, And from the face of the grievousness of battle. For thus said the Lord unto me: `Within a year, as years of a hireling, Consumed hath been all the honour of Kedar. And the remnant of the number of bow-men, The mighty of the sons of Kedar are few, For Jehovah, God of Israel, hath spoken! It mentions an Arab fugitive who must be helped by other tribes. This fugitive has fled from other Arabs (Kedar) who wanted to kill him. This prophecy sounds just like the historical Hijrah of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) who left Meccah after it's people tried to kill him, and went to Madinah along with Hazrat Abu Bakr, both riding on Camels. When they entered Madinah, the people there helped him, gave him food and water, as Prophecised. It also prophecises the fall of Kedar (those Arabs who opposed the "fugitive").   The Bible makes it clear that Kedar and Tema (the two tribes mentioned in Isaiah 21) are the sons of Ishmael:   and these [are] the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their births: first-born of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, 15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. (Bible: Old Testament: Genesist 25:13)   So we conclude that Isaiah chapter 21 is actually prophecising the coming of Cyrus/DhulQarnayn, Jesus/'Eesa, and Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon them) who came in the exact same order as mentioned in the prophecy.

For from the face of destructions they fled, From the face of a stretched-out sword, And from the face of a trodden bow, And from the face of the grievousness of battle.

For thus said the Lord unto me: `Within a year, as years of a hireling, Consumed hath been all the honour of Kedar.

And the remnant of the number of bow-men, The mighty of the sons of Kedar are few, For Jehovah, God of Israel, hath spoken!'

(Bible: Old Testament: Isaiah 21: 6-17)

The above posted by one friend clearly points to the migration of Hazrat Muhammad (in peace) from Makkah to madinah under fear of being killed.

The last few words point to the utter defeat of the Quraesh of Makkah at the battlefield of Badr in year 02 after hijrah. It is telling that the powerful strong men of the Quresh (Kedar) will be greatly reduced within a year.

No the above is wrong:

Yeshayahu - Chapter 21

The harsh prophecy of the western desert This prophecy refers to Babylonia, as is delineated therein. If you ask, Did he not already prophesy about it (supra 13): "On a tranquil mountain raise a banner," and the entire chapter? sometimes the prophecy comes into his mouth today in one manner, and later in another manner.

The harsh prophecy of the western desert Jonathan paraphrases: A harsh prophecy concerning the armies that come from the desert, as numerous as the waters of the sea.

like tempests in arid land, to pass Like a tempest that whirls in an arid land, that raises much dust.

to pass So will many camps pass to come upon Babylon.

from the desert they shall come to them (lit.. to her).

from an awesome land Jonathan renders: From a land where mighty deeds have been performed. It is also possible to explain that it is a place of snakes and scorpions, as it is said (Deut. 8:15): "The great and awesome desert."

A harsh prophecy The prophet says, "This harsh prophecy concerning Babylon was told to me."

the traitor shall be betrayed Jonathan renders: The robbers are robbed and the plunderers are plundered. The Hebrew wording, according to the Targum, is to be explained thus: The traitor another will come and betray him; and the plunderer another will come and plunder him. These are Persia and Media, who rob and plunder Babylon, who, until now plundered and robbed all the countries.

march, Elam and come upon them (lit., her).

besiege, O Media (������). I.e., besiege Babylon with a siege. Comp. (II Sam. 22:3) "God is my rock (������)." The accent is on the latter syllable, on the "resh," whereas, in this case, the accent is on the first syllable, like "rise (������)", "return (�������)."

all sighs have I brought to an end (���������). (This is) not (spelled with a) "Mappiq heh," (which would mean "her sigh") for this is like "all sighs in the world," and it is an expression denoting a great sigh of many people (sospiradic in O.F.). All sighs have I brought to an end, for the world was sighing because of the yoke of the kingdom of Babylon; now I have brought it to an end.

my loins are filled with trembling The prophet is merciful and sighs over the retribution meted out to the nations. This is the Midrash Aggadah (Tan., beginning of Balak). According to its simple meaning, however, the prophet is reciting the lamentation and the mourning as though this were Babylonia lamenting.

pangs (�������), an expression denoting trembling and pains. And our Rabbis said: A woman has doors and hinges (�������) on her womb just as the doors of a house have hinges (Bechoroth 45a).

I became confused This is a malady known as ������, convulsions, in the language of the Sages.

fright (����������). fright.

the evening of my desire The night that I longed for, for rejoicing and for a banquet. In the Book of Josipon we find that he was happy since his troops had defeated the army of Persia. (Book 1, ch. 5) That night He made for me into trembling, as it is said (Dan. 5:1): "King Belshazzar made a great feast� They drank wine�(verse 4). On that very night, King Belshazzar was slain�(verse 30)." (6:1) "And Darius the Mede received the kingdom."

setting up the lamp (���������), Set up the lamp. In Gen. Rabbah (63:14) we learn that people call a lamp ��������.

eating, drinking And in the midst of the eating and the drinking, they cried, "Arise, princes!"

anoint a shield They were shields of boiled leather, and they would anoint them with oil so that the weapons would glide off. The same is mentioned concerning Saul (II Sam. 1:21): "For there the shield of the mighty was rejected." It rejected its anointing and did not absorb it, and Saul�s shield became as though it was not anointed with oil.

Go set up the lookout One of your disciples is destined to complain about My attribute, concerning the long prosperity of Babylon, and that was Habakkuk who made a circle and stood inside it, and said (Habakkuk 2:1), "On my watch will I stand, and I will look out to see what He will speak within me." Said the Holy One, blessed be He, "Put up that lookout and promise him in My Name that he will stand on his watch and what he sees in the downfall of Babylon he will tell."

And he shall see a chariot and I will show him there a sort of chariot with a pair of riders, one riding a donkey and one riding a camel, and that is a sign of Persia and Media.

and he shall listen attentively And there he shall hear in his prophecy a representation of the mighty rumbling and stirring of armies.

And the lion called That is Habakkuk. ������� (lion) has the same numerical value as Habakkuk. Isaiah prophesied that Habakkuk was destined to pray for this and say the following.

on the watchtower, O Lord O Lord, my God, I always stand on the watchtower to inform me about this.

And behold this is coming When he prays concerning this, he will see sort of a chariot of men, etc.

Babylon has fallen, yea, it has fallen Jonathan renders: Has fallen and is also destined to fall. This denotes two downfalls in two consecutive years, first through Media and Persia, and in the second year, through Heaven, as it is stated (supra 13:19): "And Babylon, the beauty of the kingdoms, the glory of the pride of the Chaldees, shall be like God�s overturning of Sodom�" And so we find in Seder Olam (ch. 28): And in that year the news came concerning Darius, and after him, in the year, the news, "And Babylon, the beauty of the kingdoms� shall be like the overturning, etc." (supra 13:19).

My threshed grain and the product of my threshing floor My hallowed grain, the stack of wheat which I was commanded by the Holy Spirit to rectify you and lead you on the straight path, like a man who threshes and winnows his grain on the threshing floor.

What I heard from Him I have related to you.

The harsh prophecy of Dumah That is Edom, and so does Scripture say (Ezekiel 27:32): "Who is like Tyre, like Dumah in the midst of the sea?"

To Me one calls from Seir Said the Holy One, blessed be He: "To Me the prophet or the angel calls from the yoke of the kingdom of Seir."

Watchman, what will be of the night? Watcher of Israel, what will be of this night and this darkness?

Said the watchman The Holy One, blessed be He.

Morning has come I have the ability to make the morning shine for you.

and also night is prepared for the wicked at the time of the end.

if you will request, request If you make your request to hasten the end of the exile.

return and come in repentance.

The harsh prophecy concerning Arabia About the Arabs.

In the forest in Arabia did you lodge I saw what you did when Assyria exiled my people, and they begged their captors to lead them through your land, since you are the descendants of their uncles, perhaps you would have mercy on them, and you were going out and lodging in the forest, the road where the caravans pass.

the roads of your cousins the children of your uncle.

Toward the thirsty it is customary to bring water, but you, the inhabitants of the land of Tema, did not do so, but with his bread they came before the wanderer; they brought them sorts of salty foods and blown up flasks full of air, and he would eat and ask to drink, and he would put the opening of the flask into his mouth, and the air would go into his innards, and he would die. Another explanation of "Toward the thirsty they bring water," is as follows: I did not do so to your forefather, Ishmael; when he was thirsty, I revealed to him a well of water.

Since because of the swords they wandered (I.e.,) my people (wandered).

the outstretched sword (���������) , spread over the surface of the earth, as (I Sam. 30:16) "And behold, they were scattered (����������) over the entire landscape," (II Sam. 5:18) "And spread out (��������������) in the Valley of Rephaim." Another explanation is that ��������� is like ���������, sharp. All letters whose sources are close to being from one place, (i.e., from one speech organ,) are interchangeable with one another, the �nun� with the �lamed,� as in the case stated (in Nehemiah 13:7): "To make him a chamber (���������)," like ���������.

like the year of a hireling I will be exact with them to limit the time like a hireling, hired by years, who is exact with the time of the completion of his year.

And the rest the remnant.

the bows of the heroes of the children of Kedar Archers, for they are like their forefather, (Ishmael,) about whom it is stated (Gen. 21: 2): "And he was an archer."

mochiah wrote: No the above is wrong: 7. And he shall see a chariot with a pair of riders; one riding a horse and one riding a camel, and he shall listen attentively. And he shall see a chariot and I will show him there a sort of chariot with a pair of riders, one riding a donkey and one riding a camel, and that is a sign of Persia and Media.

No, You are wrong. The riders dont all represent Persian and Media only the rider on the horse does (and he is Cyrus/ZulQarnayn).

In fact, if you read the prophecy CAREFULLY you will see that it goes on to give detail regarding these three. It mentions the fall of babylon by Persia (rider on horse) the one who will come from seir and shall return (Jesus who we know will return and who rode a Donkey) and riding on camel from Arabia.

mochiah wrote: 14. Toward the thirsty they bring water; the inhabitants of the land of Tema with his bread they came before the wanderer. Toward the thirsty it is customary to bring water, but you, the inhabitants of the land of Tema, did not do so, but with his bread they came before the wanderer; they brought them sorts of salty foods and blown up flasks full of air, and he would eat and ask to drink, and he would put the opening of the flask into his mouth, and the air would go into his innards, and he would die. Another explanation of "Toward the thirsty they bring water," is as follows: I did not do so to your forefather, Ishmael; when he was thirsty, I revealed to him a well of water.

What ????? Where do you get the idea that they DIDNT bring food and water ? It certainly doesnt say that in the prophecy.

And if you study the history of Islam you will see that this is the exact story of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) who along with his companion Abu Bakr, went to Madinah from Makkah because the Makkans were trying to kill him.

And then the Arabs in Madinah brought him food and water and joined him and converted to Islam.

mochiah wrote: 15. For, because of the swords they wandered; because of the outstretched sword, because of the bent bow, and because of the pressure of war. 16. For so has the Lord said to me: "In another year, like the days of a hireling, all the glory of Kedar shall terminate. 17. And the rest of the number of the bows of the heroes of the children of Kedar shall decrease, for the Lord, the God of Israel has spoken."

The prophet Mohammad (pbuh) left Makkah after it's people (Kedar Arabs) planned to kill him but later with the Muslims of Madinah (Tema) he defeated the pagan Arabs of Makkah and later returned to Makkah and it's people surrendered and Makkah was taken over by Muslims.

13. The harsh prophecy concerning Arabia: In the forest in Arabia did you lodge, on the roads of your cousins.

The harsh prophecy concerning Arabia About the Arabs.

In the forest in Arabia did you lodge I saw what you did when Assyria exiled my people, and they begged their captors to lead them through your land, since you are the descendants of their uncles, perhaps you would have mercy on them, and you were going out and lodging in the forest, the road where the caravans pass.

the roads of your cousins the children of your uncle.

Just a question if you are fighting in the way of allah isnt victory guaranteed?

Why has victory been guaranteed to the children of israel? Maybe we are in the end of days when g*d comes back to Israel.

Yechezkiel - Chapter 35

1. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
2. "Son of man, direct your face toward Mount Seir and prophesy over it.
3. And you shall say to it: So said the Lord God: Behold I am against you, O Mount Seir, and I shall stretch forth My hand upon you and make you desolate and waste.
4. I shall lay your cities waste, and you will be desolate, and you will know that I am the Lord.
5. Because you had everlasting hatred, and you hurled the children of Israel by the sword, on the day of their misfortune at the time of the end of their iniquity.
6. Therefore, as I live, says the Lord God, for I shall make you into blood, and blood will pursue you; for surely you hated blood, and blood will pursue you.
7. And I shall make Mount Seir into desolation and waste, and I shall cut off from you anyone passing through or returning.
8. And I shall fill his mountains with his slain, your hills and your dales and all your streams-those slain by the sword will fall in them.
9. I shall make you everlasting desolations, and your cities will not return, and you will know that I am the Lord.
10. Because you said, "The two nations and the two lands will be mine, and we shall inherit it," and the Lord was there,
11. Therefore, as I live, says the Lord God, I shall commit [acts] like your wrath and like your [acts of] anger that you did out of your hatred for them, and I shall be known among them when I judge you.
12. And you will know that I am the Lord. I heard all your blasphemies that you said concerning the mountains of Israel, saying, "They have become desolate; they were given to us to devour."
13. You have magnified yourselves against Me with your mouth, and you have multiplied your words against Me; I have heard.
14. So said the Lord God: When the whole earth rejoices, I shall make you desolate.
15. As you rejoiced over the inheritance of the house of Israel because it became desolate, so will I do to you; Mount Seir and all Edom will be desolate, even all of it, and they will know that I am the Lord.

And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (Deuteronomy 33:2)

Seir is a reference to Jesus (pbuh). It is usually associated with the chain of mountains West and South of the Dead Sea extending through Jerusalem, and Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus (pbuh). It was later extended to include the mountains on the East side as well (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 783). [...] Prophet Moses (pbuh) never in his lifetime entered Palestine, and thus, this could not be a reference to him.

"There is a ban upon a city [Jerusalem] that We have destroyed. They [the Jews] shall not return [to the Land of Israel] till when Gog and Magog are unloosed, and they slide down out of every slope, and nigh has drawn the true promise, and behold, the eyes of the unbelievers staring. 'Alas for us! We were heedless of this. Nay, we are evildoers" [Qur'an, "The Prophets", chapter 21:96, 97].

"Upon this day when their faces are turned about in the fire, they shall say: 'Ah, would we had obeyed God and the messenger!' They shall say: 'Our Lord, we obeyed the chiefs and great ones, and they led us astray from the way. Our Lord, give them chastisement twofold, and curse them with a mighty curse" [ Qur'an, "The Confederates", chapter 33:66].

The next verse admonishes:

"O believers, be not as those who hurt Moses(Israelites), but God declared him quit of what they said, and he was high honored with God" [Qur'an, "The Confederates", chapter 33:68].

Seir are the children of Essau

Paran are the children of Ishmael

And certainly We gave Musa nine clear signs; so ask the children of Israel.
When he came to them, Firon said to him: 
Most surely I deem you, O Musa, to be a man deprived of reason.
He said: In truth thou knowest that none sent down these (portents),
Save the Lord of the heavens and the earth as proofs, 
And lo! (for my part) I deem thee lost, O Pharaoh.
And he wished to scare them from the land, 
But We drowned him and those with him, all together.
And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land;
But when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass, 
We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.

To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: 
As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him:
"O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!
Moses said, 
"Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none,
But the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence:
And I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"
So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: 
But We did drown him and all who were with him.
And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, 
"Dwell securely in the land (of promise)":
But when the second of the warnings came to pass, 
We gather you together in a mingled crowd. (2314)

surah 17:101-104 Al Isra' (The Night Journey)

"2314. Some commentators understand the second warning to be the Day of Judgment, the Promise of the Hereafter."

Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an
(Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, p. 703.)

"And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord will set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, that shall remain from Assyria, and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Kush and from Eklam and from Shinar and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations and will assemble the dispersed of Israel and gather together the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the Earth." 

Isaiah 11:11

mochiah wrote: came from Sinai He came out toward them when they came to stand at the foot of the mountain, as a bridegroom goes forth to greet his bride, as it is said, �[And Moses brought the people forth] toward God� (Exod. 19:17). We learn from this, that God came out toward them (Mechilta 19:17).

Moses died before ever setting foot on Sinai, therefore Sinai is not to do with Moses by with Jesus.

And then the prophecy mentions Paran which as you say are Ishmaelites/Arabs, and so the prophecy is actually foretelling the coming of Prophets Jesus and Mohammad.

Then again in Isaiah we see Sainai mentioned just before the "burden on Arabia". It is no coincidense, it is the same prophecy this time with more detail.

And in the same chapter we read of the rider on Donkey followed by the rider on the Camel, again it was prophet Jesus who rode a Donkey and prophet Mohammad rode a Camel.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Moses died before ever setting foot on Sinai, therefore Sinai is not to do with Moses by with Jesus.

  I forgot that jesus whas the one who gave the Torah to Israel On mount Sinai Sorry!!!!!!!!! LOL

mochiah wrote:   I forgot that jesus whas the one who gave the Torah to Israel On mount Sinai Sorry!!!!!!!!! LOL

It doesnt say Torah in the Verse.

mochiah wrote: No you said that Moses never was at mount sinai!!!!!!!!!! That he died before!!! Go study

According to the Torah Moses never entered Israel and so he couldnt have been at mount sinai. Correct me if Im wrong.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: mochiah wrote: No you said that Moses never was at mount sinai!!!!!!!!!! That he died before!!! Go study According to the Torah Moses never entered Israel and so he couldnt have been at mount sinai. Correct me if Im wrong.

Sinai in not in Israel Sinai Is the peninsula next to egypt!!!! Mount Sinai is The mount on that penninsula!!!

That is why we gave back sinai to egypt it isnt part of cnaan(Israel)

mochiah wrote: Sinai in not in Israel Sinai Is the peninsula next to egypt!!!! Mount Sinai is The mount on that penninsula!!! That is why we gave back sinai to egypt it isnt part of cnaan(Israel)

 "Seir is a reference to Jesus (pbuh). It is usually associated with the chain of mountains West and South of the Dead Sea extending through Jerusalem, and Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus (pbuh). It was later extended to include the mountains on the East side as well "

(Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 783).

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: mochiah wrote: Sinai in not in Israel Sinai Is the peninsula next to egypt!!!! Mount Sinai is The mount on that penninsula!!! That is why we gave back sinai to egypt it isnt part of cnaan(Israel)  "Seir is a reference to Jesus (pbuh). It is usually associated with the chain of mountains West and South of the Dead Sea extending through Jerusalem, and Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus (pbuh). It was later extended to include the mountains on the East side as well " (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 783).

Mount Seir (Hebrew: ���-�������; Har Se'ir) is the mountainous region allotted to the descendants of Esau, the Edomites. Mount Seir is specifically noted as the place that Esau made his home (Genesis 36:8; Joshua 24:4). It was named for Seir, the Horite, whose sons inhabited the land (Genesis 36:20). The children of Esau battled against the Horites and destroyed them (Deut. 2:12).

Paran:It is the place where Abraham's wife Hagar and his first son Ishmael were taken (Genesis 21)

Deutronomy chapter 1 says:

These are the words which Moses spoke unto all Israel beyond the Jordan; in the wilderness, in the Arabah, over against Suph, between Paran and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Di-zahab.

How could Moses speak in PARAN if it was in ARABIA ????

I dont think Moses was in either Paran or Seir. I understand there is difference of opinion regarding the location of Seir but you yourself said Paran is in Arabia so how do you explain this ?

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Moses died before ever setting foot on Sinai, therefore Sinai is not to do with Moses by with Jesus. And then the prophecy mentions Paran which as you say are Ishmaelites/Arabs, and so the prophecy is actually foretelling the coming of Prophets Jesus and Mohammad. Then again in Isaiah we see Sainai mentioned just before the "burden on Arabia". It is no coincidense, it is the same prophecy this time with more detail. And in the same chapter we read of the rider on Donkey followed by the rider on the Camel, again it was prophet Jesus who rode a Donkey and prophet Mohammad rode a Camel.

Sorry I made a mistake here, I meant SEIR not Sinai.

Let's look at the prophecies:

Deutronomy 33:

And he said: The LORD came from Sinai, and rose from Seir unto them; He shined forth from mount Paran, and He came from the myriads holy, at His right hand was a fiery law unto them.

Isaiah 21:

And he shall see a chariot with a pair of riders; one riding a horse and one riding a camel, and he shall listen attentively.

Isaiah 21 goes on to speak of the fall of Babylon by Persia, someone from Seir and another from Arabia.

So we have

1: Sinai

2: Seir

3: Paran

then we have

1: rider on horse

2: rider on donkey

3: rider on camel

then we have

1: fall of babylon

2: a prophecy regarding someone from Seir

3: a prophecy about Arabia which is exactly like what happened to prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

The second is always to do with Seir and the third is always to do with Arabs.

As for Sinai it is about Moses and the first prophecy in Isaiah 21 is about the fall of Babylon where the followers of Moses and Torah (the Israelites) were in captivity until Cyrus/ZulQarnayn saved them.

So we have

1: Sinai - fall of Babylon - riders on horses : PROPHET MOSES-JUDAISM

2: Seri - rider on donkey - return : PROPHET JESUS-CHRISTIANITY

3: Paran - rider on Camel -  fugitive in Arabia and fall of Kedar : PROPHET MOHAMMAD-ISLAM

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Deutronomy chapter 1 says: These are the words which Moses spoke unto all Israel beyond the Jordan; in the wilderness, in the Arabah, over against Suph, between Paran and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Di-zahab. How could Moses speak in PARAN if it was in ARABIA ???? I dont think Moses was in either Paran or Seir. I understand there is difference of opinion regarding the location of Seir but you yourself said Paran is in Arabia so how do you explain this ?

You think wrong!!! Moses and the Israelites wondered for 40 years in the desserts!!!!!!!!!!!!

Numbers-Bamidbar 10:12

12. The children of Israel traveled on their journeys from the Sinai desert, and the cloud settled in the desert of Paran.

Numbers-Bamidbar 13

Sawtul Khilafah wrote:   Isaiah 21 goes on to speak of the fall of Babylon by Persia, someone from Seir and another from Arabia.

Arent the Persians(Iranians) Doing trouble in Babylon(Irak)!!! Right now!!!

Read Isaih 21 again you will see that it speaks about the war in Irak