Rational Mind wrote: Salaam, You asked if I could create a topic in this section for i have. OK, I want to know how many angels helped the Muslims in battle of badar, I will give you a clue the answer is in the Qu�ran.

Thanks for the clue.

I don't think there was any at all, the context of verses in there seem to me indicating it that way.

I am sure you know something here.

Rational Mind wrote: So a full-day a non of you could answer me? lol I will give you another BIG clue. 8.9 - 10

Irrational conclusion (as opposed to your name!). A full day might go by, but that does not mean that all Muslims have spent all day, or have time to chase juvenile games.

I would be more than happy to discuss the issue of angels and Badr and give you an answer, just as soon as you state your point and clarify your intention.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Lets cut the chase shall we, If you here to learn then yeah inshaAllah myself and other members will try thier best to explain islamic ways and ruling to you. But you need to stay in the circle of respect and manners, otherwise dont expect any answer from us.

Now i dont want to go in circles and explain things in random for you. We will come to each topic in its own good time.

Firstly DO YOU BELIEVE IN ONE GOD? WHAT DOES YOUR THEOLOGY SAY ABOUT CREATOR AND CREATION?

I know that you are the one wanting to ask question but for me to actually show you the reality, i need to see where you went off the track.

Assalaamu alaikum 

I see Aquinian is at it again. I would encourage my brothers ands sisters read some of his old posts and you will see that the technique has not changed much. He loves to confound the minds of the people of the Ummah.

Rational Mind wrote: OK, with respect to battle of badar and the angels... Allah in the Qu'ran states, in verses: 3.124, 126 that 3000 angels helped the Muslims, in the Battle of badar and then later in the Qu'ran Allah contradict this and makes a cartographic mathematical error in verses 8.9, 10 by stating that it was 1000 angels that helped the Muslims in the battle of badar therefore Allah makes a contradiction. A prefect god doesn't make contradictions.

I remember reading Muhammad Haikal "Biography of Muhammad" in which it states that the first battle was the battle of Badr. The 2nd battle was a year later known as the battle of Uhud.

In the battle of Badr the number of muslims were 300 facing 1000 quraish. In the battle of Uhud it was 1000 against 3000.

The number of Angels mentioned here seem corresponding with the number of the quraish in two different battles, 1000 and 3000.

RM you need to check these numbers first in the khadith or history books, as I type this of memory. Maybe other posters can help as well if these numbers are correct.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

No offense intended but have you ever tried to explore outside your "great rational mind". You said you denounced a religion because it had errors in it, errors to you mayb, Who is a 14 year old kid. If you ever read the work of any scholar who is knowledgeable in the language and history of Holy Quran, they would tell you that 'I will assist you with a thousand of the angels following one another', means thousand angels following with thousand other angels. And if you really have read the history of badr you would know that kurz was going to send his armies to reinforce the loosing idolators. Muslims were worried about it and Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala told them that He would help them with successive ranks of angels. Later on armies of kurz did not come and battle was over after the first big fight and there was no need for more armies, human or angels.

By the way which website did you find these examples from, those people are doing a good job of corrupting "innocent minds". convey my congrats to them will ya. And please dont say that you found this "error" reading yourself cos a reader who is not reading any explanation can never know of the verse 3:124 to be of badr because the topic is of uhud in that surah. Only people who know every style and punctuation could tell a change happening and those people are majority of times the ones writing tafsir.

You mentioned in the other thread that why Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala would send some verses and then abrogate them later on. If you get out of this shel of doubt, you would see that there was a wisdom behind each and every matter. I will start with praying at night, first it was ordained on muslims to pray for major part of night. Reason behind that was that it helps build patience, awareness of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and yourself. Later on it was abrogated because the base was formed. Now second example is that of fighting, muslims were asked to be patient against brutality of idolators (Do you get the wisdom and mercy of Most Wise and Most Merciful in first example). In Makkah they were few and if they fought, they might have been killed but when they went to Madinah and formed a strong community then they were told to fight those who fight them. Because if you dont have resources to protect yourself then you see the example of afghanistan and iraq. If you want i will inshaAllah carry on explaining till you are satisfied.

About Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala being Most Merciful, yes He is but His judgement does not get effected by His Mercy. He is our Lord, who has complete and perfect balance in each of His attributes. If you have really read Holy Quran, you would know how many places He is Merciful gets followed up by He is most exact in retribution. Why do you close your eyes to things you dont want to see?

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not create those people deaf and dumb, their own self takes them where Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala puts a seal on their hearts because of their arrogance. When a human, seeing that almost nothing is in his control still boasts about his intelligence and thinks that He knows better then that person needs to be shown his true reality. Humans can not fully find cures for majority of disease, can not do other than harm to its surrounding and still have stupidity of standing against the creator, then you know they deserve all that they get.

So you believe we evolved! evolved from what exactly?

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

The Holy Quran is easy to understand in its general sense, but the detailed matters which do not deal with laws of daily life are the ones to be concluded. In so many places Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says that it is easy to understand for people of wisdom. Another place it is said that it is rahmah for few and trial for others. You really think that stories written in Holy Quran are like found any where else? Holy Quran has an elequence about it which can never be forged.

About abrogation, i will break it bite size for you. Why do you think that a kid is taught letters before the words, So it be easy for them. Same way Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala brought the first laws to train for the real thing and latter on those laws were not needed. Have you still got your primary books, no because you have learnt from it what was necessary. References inshaAllah i will try to give next time, previous post, the explanation of the verse is from tafsir ibn kathir and 'the life of Prophet Muhammad' by ibn kathir for battle of badr.

You said 'Well that is understandable, however when Mohammed said about the famous verses which allowed the worship of the daughters of Allah (Pagan goddesses) why did Allah abrogate those verses later? Who is more powerful the Shytaan or Allah? Furthermore, why would Allah allow that in the first place? Seems strange'.  Wow wow wow Wow, what???????????? where on earth did you get this from?

You wrote, 'So if you don�t get your way you should start killing others? NO, but as a nation you have to have a strong defence to survive. Now safiya (ra) was not married and because of her marriage to Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam, sahabah (ra) let all of her tribesmen go. Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam having more than four wives has hikmah behind each case. There were old pagan traditions which required breaking and He acted upon Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala's instructions. For example marrying ex-wife of his adopted son, marrying the lady sent as a gift, marrying a captive, and marrying daughter of brother like best friend. (The life of Prophet Muhammad by ibn kathir)

you wrote, 'Furthermore, in Islam a woman can be sentenced to death if her husbanded accuses her of adultery even without 4 witnesses.' Who told you that? There are verses in Holy Quran which deals with this specific topic. InshaAllah i will try to find them but i will tell you summary of what they say. It is said that if a man accuses her wife of adultery and she denies, he should bring forth his witnesses, if he can not do this. Then both of them should swear that they are right and invoke curse of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala upon the one who is lying. After this they dont have no relationship, their marriage breaks. Also keep in mind that One of seven major sins is accusing a chaste women of any thing like this. So Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala makes sure that there are strict moral bindings with things like this.

Another thing, a woman can also file similar sort of claim and has to bring her witnesses and if proven right, the man would be stoned to death. Rule of paying blood money is same for men and women, if a man can escape death sentence so could a women.

As a guy what would you hate most for it to happen to your family? being made slaves to your enemies, right? Look you need to stop giving so much importance to human race and us people. Purpose of us being here is recognizing our Lord, obeying Him, worshipping Him. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala's laws are to be inforced in this world. For that purpose a true muslim leader needs to be in place. So muslim armies go out, giving option to accept islam, surrender, save their families or fight and have their families taken as captives. Yes Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala wants us to know of the punishments and consequences so we know its law of our Lord not some one ordinary.

The marriage of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam to ayisha (ra) is talk of the town among the critics and has always been. Because us muslims feel shy about it and are afraid to explain it. You need to know that islam encourages parents to get their kids married early because humans have natural desires. So puberty will be the age, some girls attain puberty at age of 9 or 10. It was a very common thing a girl of this age getting married at that time. Tell you one thing, my grams got married when she was 10 that too with slightly older man. But that is not all, there is a bigger hikmah behind this marriage.

Abubakr (ra) was taken as a brother of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam due to their closeness. It was to state that relations which prohibit marriage are only through birth or suckling. Second reason which is a major one is Ayisha (ra)'s contribution towards islamic knowledge. She is third biggest narrator of ahadith, majority of fatwas of deen relating women and quite alot general ones are taken from her, she was very inquisitive so she would ask Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam all the reasons and explanation behind an ayah and ruling. The other wives were older and had a respect barrier with the Prophet but her ways and behaviour is a guidline for the beautifull and polite relation of husband and wife.

Look you can not blame the whole religion for doings of one person. I am sure this lady is very nice but if she was totaly sincere she would tell you to not forsake your Lord because of your father. She would not tell you to eat because you give food up for Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala not for your dad. But again maybe she is doing what she thinks is best for you.

Evolution? really, you do know that it was just a theory to start with which never got proven. One simple example, evolution rubbish says that each survival instinct is learnt individually and then passed on. if that was the case there would not have been no ants, bees and many other species. Ants have a division of labour amongst them, few cutting the leaves, few carrying those, few collecting food, few making the nest, few doing other things, i cant even remember. If they had to learn one survival instinct at a time, they themselves would have been extinct. Check harun yahya's stuff, he shreads it into pieces and you know it for what it is.

Rational Mind wrote: Andalus wrote: Rational Mind wrote: So a full-day a non of you could answer me? lol I will give you another BIG clue. 8.9 - 10 Irrational conclusion (as opposed to your name!). A full day might go by, but that does not mean that all Muslims have spent all day, or have time to chase juvenile games. I would be more than happy to discuss the issue of angels and Badr and give you an answer, just as soon as you state your point and clarify your intention.   OK, with respect to battle of badar and the angels... Allah in the Qu'ran states, in verses: 3.124, 126 that 3000 angels helped the Muslims, in the Battle of badar and then later in the Qu'ran Allah contradict this and makes a cartographic mathematical error in verses 8.9, 10 by stating that it was 1000 angels that helped the Muslims in the battle of badar therefore Allah makes a contradiction. A prefect god doesn't make contradictions.

Greetings rational mind.

I might suggest a basic course in rational thinking.

A contradiction is an imcompatibility between two proposition.

1) student is affraid of starting college, his major in mathematics is difficult, he will have to work less in order to have time to study, and he is not sure if the bus will be able to get him to and from school and work.

2) His parents reassure him that they will give him X amount of money to cover the cost of a tutor for extra help, to cover the amount in lost wages because of his studies, and for the cost of a bus pass.

3) Three months before classes begin, the student realizes that his situtation is more difficult than he originally thought.

a) his tuition will be higher

b) he has to take a professor who's class that is known to have a high drop out rate and low grades, but the course is a requirement for his major

4) His parents reassure him not to worry. as they can now give him Y amount of money to cover his desire to quit his job so he can have even more time to study, along with his tuturing, and supplies to suplement his learning.

5) A week before classes begin, the student is very worried. His parents then tell him that in addition to Y amount of money, he can move i their home rent free, and they will rpovide him with a car.

There is not contradiction between 2,4, or 5.

The account you are speaking of in the Quran is no different from the analogy I just mentioned.

There is no contradiction, only your misunderstanding of what a contradiction actually is. I find it funny that you are supposed to know your Quran, yet you bring up an extremely juvenile polemic, recycled and rehashed from the pages of the standard missionary handbooks.

The promise of help to the Muslims with angels differed with the request of the Prophet (saw).

1000 was offered, but when the Muslims realized that more men were in the pagan army then they first thought, they prayed again and were promised 3000 angles. And to place the Muslims hearts at rest, Allah let them know he could give them 5000 angels. 

There is no contradiction. 

Rational Mind wrote: No offense intended but have you ever tried to explore outside your "great rational mind". Yes I have, I have looked at everything rationally, and logically.

I doubt you know what critical thinking is. So far, your responses and charges have been disappointing.

 

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

One thing i forgot to tell you was that Ayisha (ra) was one of the scholars who dont believe in tradition of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam talking to the dead at well of badr. So if it seems funny to you, you dont have to believe in it but never disrespect a tradition because it might just be true. She was one of most intelligent person among sahabah and sahabiat (ra), a child who had done to her what disbelievers accuse our innocent Prophet, she would not have been the way she was.

You wrote, 'So what am I supposed to do now? I've left Islam. What happens now if I want to come back?' SubhanAllah little brother. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is Most Merciful, He forgives you all your past sins if you do taubah with sincerity. I am sure you know that you would have to take a bath, and take shahadah infront of two witnessess. But i would want you to clear all your doubts at the same time, you can ask any questions and inshaAllah we will try to explain in best of our ability. May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala guide you to His way and give you peace of mind, ameen

Rational Mind wrote: So a full-day a non of you could answer me? lol I will give you another BIG clue. 8.9 - 10

If you keep talking then i will give you a big clue from Qur'an that you will never sleep for the rest of your life...

You are lack of wisdom of Qur'an,may Allah bless these poor persons...

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Those ahadith are authentic and ayisha (ra) was 9 when she got married. She did attain puberty at that age and playing with dolls does not prove it to be otherwise. I have seen grown men spending hours on playstations, what does that mean? nothing, zilsh. A child who is molested in childhood gets scared for life. He or she can hardly get over that incident and be outstanding in life's every department let alone be one of the greatest scholars of worlds greatest and fastest growing religion.

You want to know why a women is covered up? She covers up because our Lord has ordained it on us. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala gave us enough respect that we do not become peace of flesh for creeps. In this so modern society where there is so called freedom, a woman is still a slave of men's desires. She wants to look good and fit to get a guys attention, to get a job and to reach any where. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala prohibits it because just like men we are and should be what ever we could be due to our personality and brain not because the way we look.

And i am not tricking you into nothing, you asked me question and i gave you the answers i know of. I did not sugar coat anything, neither am i going to do it for you or anybody else. I know and believe that laws of my Lord are perfect why would i try to justify it and taint it.

Its upto you who you want to listen to, my part is only to explain, rest is upto you. One last thing, whatever rubbish your teacher says about our dear Prophet sallallahu alaihe wassalam, keep it to yourself, i dont want to see it posted next time.

Oh i almost forgot you sort of asked a question in there, 'Would you give your 9 year old virgin duaghter to a man who is 50 something years old ' Well let me think, for first 25 years of his life he stayed a virgin amongst a society where relation between a man and woman outside marriage was as common as today's british society. Then he married a widow who was about 15 years older than him (now before your kind and generous friend's twisted mind brands it 'for sake of her money, let me tell you he never took no money off her and earned his own livelihood) then stays faithfull to her for 25 years. Have a perfect marriage with a lady who gives him4 daughters in a society where females were burried alive.

He earns so much respect at age of 35 in a society where respect and nobility was only for older (above 60 or 70) and rich, that when he was chosen to be the one deciding where to place the most sacred rock of most holiest place, everyone was more than happy thats its him.

He is so pious, trust worthy and truthful that people were ready to accept whatever he says with their eyes closed. Then at age of 40, he claims to be a prophet and gets nothing out of that claim other than getting stoned at, sweared at, bruised and ijured taking everyone's abuse and being boycotted till almost dying with hunger but does not give up his claim. His followers are all poor people getting nothing but abuse for reverting but still love him more than their own selves and increase in numbers every day. Then his wife dies and He asks my daughter's hand, you know what i will be honoured to have such a person as my son in law and so would every believing parent.

Just want2 leave you with these verses, 'Shall We then treat the People of Faith like the People of Sin? What is the matter with you? How judge ye? Or have ye a book through which ye learn- That ye shall have, through it whatever ye choose? Or have ye Covenants with Us to oath, reaching to the Day of Judgment, (providing) that ye shall have whatever ye shall demand? Ask thou of them, which of them will stand surety for that! Or have they some "Partners" (in Allahhead)? Then let them produce their "partners", if they are truthful! (68: 35-42) Just a thought about your "friend's ways, teachings or promises.

fatima wrote: One last thing, whatever rubbish your teacher says -----

Nothing has change ever since I start the religious discussion sister, in person or in the internet. The theme are always the same, the same pattern wherever you go.

Muhammad is deeply loved by the muslims all over the globe all the time. So relax sister I have seen all of them, the big and the small.

"Muhammad robbed the caravan" has not come yet.

Muhammad sat and listen to arabian rabbi and started the Qur'an from that sitting is still out there.

Mary the copt was the illegitemate wife surely will come.

Muhammad scribe created qur'anic word at will other than Muhammad dictation is still somewhere there.

Muhammad did this and Muhammad did that are so many out there. All of those are for one purpose and one purpose only, hate Muhammad.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Dear Fatima,we have entered to Ramadan and we really do not have to prove them anything please do not waste your breath with this man...you can't convince him just ban it at all

I am not trying to prove or convince him of anything brother, I am just putting plain reality infront of him. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is the only one who has power over hearts and if this guy has a goodness and sincerity in amount of speck of a date in his heart, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is Most generous in His rewards.

To rational mind, yeah i remember Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam ordering for a poetess named asma bint marwan to be killed. But i cant remember the time period so can you point me in which hijri it was so i could look up.

I dont know this lady friend of yours so i am not going to say anything bout her but Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has put a sense into every person to judge a person. If you really looking for the truth then you have to do your own research, not be dependent on her or just one muslim in a forum.

The rule is whenever there is a khadith in direct opposition with the Qur'anic injunction, the khadith statement is invalid. I am sure people from friends and foes know this rule. Those khadiths you used for these purpose are fall into this category, beside he adopted his own slave as a son. If he did the impossible in the face of ingrained culture toward slaves, therefore these kind of khadiths are rejected. The Qur'anic rule concernings slave started early from the Meccan era.

Rational Mind wrote: There is more, so much more. And those are from Bukhari so they are SAHIH. (Her words)

I have seen and read many of them, absurdities as well as contradictions, but my attitude in reading them is different. I don't have feeling of hatred when I am reading therefore my reading is academic by nature and to increase the benefits for spiritual purpose.

Btw, are they slaves in existance in the houses somewhere that need to be freed? The muslims have duty to free them if there are any.

Sounds like you have a real winner there Rational Mind.  Prejudice and closeminded people are something I cannot tolerate.

One of my favorite hadiths (and mind you I'm non Muslim) is one where Fatima asked her father for a slave to help with her domestic chores.  Muhammed entered her and Ali's tent after they had gone to bed and set down between them, propping his feet up on Ali's chest.  (This shows me his sense of humor.)  He then taught then that dhikr was better than having a slave and taught them. 

I love that hadith, because it shows that he really felt that prayer was more important than possessions.  It was also a good way of saying No. 

002.177
YUSUFALI: It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.
PICKTHAL: It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing.
SHAKIR: It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts-- these are they who are true (to themselves) and these are they who guard (against evil).

Dear Rationalite Mandalito,

Please do not try to understand Hadiths with your moving type,first change and see the change...understanding Islam is more than Rationalite,it needs heart,respect,wisdom,6 senses,knowledge and more and more which you do not know...

Your Irrationalite Broderite,Suleyman....

4:24 And [forbidden to you are] all married women other than those whom you rightfully possess [through wedlock]: this is God's ordinance, binding upon you. But lawful to you are all [women] beyond these, for you to seek out, offering them of your possessions, taking them in honest wedlock, and not in fornication. And unto those with whom you desire to enjoy marriage, you shall give the dowers due to them; but you will incur no sin if, after [having agreed upon] this lawful due, you freely agree with one another upon anything [else]: behold, God is indeed all-knowing, wise.

4:25 And as for those of you who, owing to cir­cumstances, are not in a position to marry free believing women, [let them marry] believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess.  And God knows all about your faith; each one of you is an issue of the other.   Marry them, then, with their people's leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions.  And when they are married, and thereafter become guilty of immoral conduct, they shall be liable to half the penalty to which free married women are liable. This [permission to marry slave-girls applies] to those of you who fear lest they stumble into evil. But it is for your own good to persevere in patience [and to abstain from such marriages]: and God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

Rational Mind, they cannot have sex without being married.  If a Muslim man wants to have sex with a woman, slave or not, she must become his wife FIRST or it becomes fornication.

Rational Mind wrote: Please just answer, I will look stupid now when I tell her. She says Muslims can't explain their own scriptures. She is winning without even trying. If you can't answer then say you don't know, don't make things up, she made real fun she said half of the Muslims I speak to don't even know the Qu'ran they have not even read it. She only said Sister Fatima has some sense. Actually, when I printed out what Fatima said she shut up and stop saying about child-marriage. Now she has gone to slave-girl-rape and Mohamed selling and owning slaves.

Dear Rationalite,

If we will tell you the truth from that point you can't get because these are not the first issues of Islam,the worst one is if we will tell from that point you will loose your chance to catch the truth forever,the second for your understanding the truth is you should have lessons on first steps but you do not worth...

This is the problem...

You are an damned Khafir that you are arguing and using bad words in Ramadan,did you not hear that also the Khafirs in Mecca in the time of the last prophet were calming down in these holy three months leaving wars and other bad things comes from an ancient custom???????...

I am sorry but you can't be a first quality Muslim and also you can not be a first class Khafir...you are really in darkness...

Sister Fatima knows the Qur'an well that she calmly forgives you without arguing...

But if you agitate me  more i can't promise...take care you steps and dear moderators please ban this damned man....  

Rational Mind wrote: I went to school today and my teacher said you're "evil" lol and she told me to eat chrips when I was fasting so I ate them. She told me "tell her about these hadith" and she showmed me some hadith. She told me to post them to you... Volume 3, Book 47, Number 765: Bukhari Narrated Kurib: the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles." She has freed her slave GIRL, but Mo says that she would have got MORE REWARD if she had given the slave girl to her uncles. Why would that get her more reward?

First off, let me correct a couple of items that you have "assumed".

It is to one of her maternal uncles, not to all of them.

Furthermore, you are trying to jump to conclusions that are not implied or stated. Nothing in the commentary states that she was going to be used.

All the hadith states is that a Muslim was told it would have been better if she had given the slave to one of her uncles, vs setting her free.

Given that in Islam, it is a huge reward to let a slave go, without any command that one must own a slave, then the need of the uncles in terms of charity would have out weighed the good of freeing a slave.

Since you have been unable to provide the context that contains the details, and you have only been able to fill in the gaps with assumptions and conjecture, then I would say that you and your teacher have nog rounds on which to make a case against Islam based upon the information provided in the hadith.

Your teacher is out of their league, and you are extremely misguided.

The reward being that her sicko uncles could have used another slave girl fro some sex.

Conjecture. Unsubstantiated conjecture. The hadith does not imply anything like this.

Volume 3, Book 41, Number 598: Narrated Jabir: A man manumitted a slave and he had no other property than that, so the Prophet cancelled the manumission (and sold the slave for him). No'aim bin Al-Nahham bought the slave from him. The man freed his slave, but Mohammed cancelled it and sold the slave instead.

The hadith is not about keeping slaves. This narrative is about paying back debt. You should not die while owing people money. He freed his slave before he payed off his debts. It was the owners fault, not the Prophet's. The man was unable to take care of his debts, and did not have any property to sell in order to take care of debt. So a slave that was just released was take back so that the man's debt could be cleaned up. If his creditors did not want to wipe off the debt, then the slave was the last thing of value.

This is my current understanding of the context, and if I am wrong, may Allah forgive me.

Volume 3, Book 46, Number 711: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: A man amongst us declared that his slave would be freed after his death. The Prophet called for that slave and sold him. The slave died the same year. man promised to free his slave when he died, so Mohammed sold him instead, which in turn ensured that the slave would die as a SLAVE.

You are "extrapolating", meaning you are drawing a conclusion based upon your own prejudice, or opinion, and not what is stated in the narrative. You have no clue about the context or the details.

You are producing a common trick by detractors: List vague hadith, without any study of the hadith which would provide a context and background, assert some conclusion not stated in the narrative, and then demand that someone prove other wise.

This is a good trick because it keeps Muslims busy, while the scammer can get by without making any real effort in the thread. And when the narrative gets old, then you can find another one, which is vague enough to allow you to input yoru own prejudice, and then sit back and make demands.

1) Please provde the context of the hadith. If you do not have it, then you have no bases from which to launch slander (it is slander if you cannot back up any alleged intentions or actions of people you do not know)

2) Please make a point about the narrative

There is more, so much more. And those are from Bukhari so they are SAHIH. (Her words)

Interesting. What is sahih?

Rational Mind wrote: Please just answer, I will look stupid now when I tell her. She says Muslims can't explain their own scriptures. She is winning without even trying.

Interesting. So far, I have only seen you provide "implicit" hadith (without commentary, one can make up withatever they like), and then draw baseless opinions. The problem is that you are quoting scriptures you do not have any familiarity with.

If you can't answer then say you don't know, don't make things up, she made real fun she said half of the Muslims I speak to don't even know the Qu'ran they have not even read it. She only said Sister Fatima has some sense.

I would be happy to have a debate!

(I will not hold me breath!)

Actually, when I printed out what Fatima said she shut up and stop saying about child-marriage. Now she has gone to slave-girl-rape and Mohamed selling and owning slaves.

If you want to debate the issue of slavery in Islam, then just say it. Do not waste so much time trying to interject your opinions into vague hadith.

Rational Mind wrote: ^ thanks this is very good answers Andalus! I will send them to her lets see what she says. Thanks again.

What are you talking about?,sending what?,did not you get the message?...

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

"rational mind", just one question, have you not got a mind of your own? If you are as you claim 14 years old boy, then when you joined IC in september you only had two or three years in secondary school depending when your birthday is, in legal terms you still are considered a minor. Now a teacher (most probably RE) saw an 11 years old vulnerable kid annoyed at his dad and puting all the blame on the religion and took her chance. How can any1 give any credibility to her shouting about morals and ethics when she herself is misusing her position as a teacher, she is abusing the trust put in her by her organization and parents. Today if you go and say that you going to tell the headteacher about your change of religion and you are going to live with your 'nice teacher' as she promised. See what happens if she has to choose between getting a sack or putting you and your story in a sack of rubbish and brand you with same label as me.

You say about how majority of muslims dont really know much about Holy Quran and basic islamic laws. How much do you and this teacher of yours really know? Not even the basics, and please dont tell me that you do. I asked you to find some thing out for me in last post. Let me remind you, which hijri the incident with asma bint marwan happened? Now dont run back to your teacher, she is not going to know because it is not in the major books of sirah, it is only found on those typical website, where i am quite sure she is a frequent visitor of. Secondly anybody who dont know why muslim women cover up and give the pathetic explanation that you posted, does not help his 'rational' cause. Another thing when i asked how do you know about the verse in surah 3 meant badr and not uhud while the topic was of uhud. You gave a lame excuse of many surahs stating many other things other than their title. Well 3rd surah is called 'aale imran' and no where there it is hinted that it talks about uhud, neither is the whole surah about uhud. So a simple reading through does not point out to which battle is this mention of.

These three things are from top of my head and if i go back i will find many more. The only reason i did not argue or tried my utmost to beat you in this stupid war of words is that i thought you might be here wanting to learn. If you sincere about wanting to know the true islam then you need to start from Holy Quran. You need to get your base level firm before you even think of building ten other stories on top of that. I really have not got time of a day for a person who does not even have mental strength or capacity to decide for what is good for him. I will try to explain this slave 'business' with you and if you keep up this habbit of puppet show, i am sorry but i aint replying.

Yes islam does allow to have physical relationship with slave girls. It is in Holy Quran but people like you and your teacher forget to quote the ayaah,  'If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful' (4:25).

Another important thing to know is that slave girls were not just given out like that, they had legal bindings with them. Just like a marriage certificate, a certificate of ownership was given by amir to that person. The slave girl was not a person to go round, only one person had right to her. It is shariah law that slave girl also has the right of provision. There is a greater wisdom behind this, if a person can not afford to wed a free woman, then in that case he takes a slave girl. Because you do not have to give mahr to her but only her provision is your responsibility. This was done as Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala forbids fornication. Another reason is that just like Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala sent the law that His law should be enforced every where so that people could learn about His religion. Same way when these non-muslim slave girls were taken, they were treated so good and they saw the behaviour and ways of early muslims that mojority of these captives became muslims and were freed and were taken in marriage. Brother andalus has explained to you Hikmah behind the ahadith you mentioned so i dont need to go there.

Its upto you what you want with your life, your teacher can not save you from anything if Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala wills it. If you do decide to use the cells in your skull then you will inshaAllah get help and explanation for things but otherwise have a good life.

Want to leave you with this,

'Every soul shall taste of death, and you shall only be paid fully your reward on the resurrection day; then whoever is removed far away from the fire and is made to enter the garden he indeed has attained the object; and the life of this world is nothing but a provision of vanities. You shall certainly be tried respecting your wealth and your souls, and you shall certainly hear from those who have been given the Book before you and from those who are polytheists much annoying talk; and if you are patient and guard (against evil), surely this is one of the affairs (which should be) determined upon' (3:185-186).

'And this life of the world is nothing but a sport and a play; and as for the next abode, that most surely is the life-- did they but know! So when they ride in the ships they call upon Allah, being sincerely obedient to Him, but when He brings them safe to the land, lo! they associate others (with Him); Thus they become ungrateful for what We have given them, so that they may enjoy; but they shall soon know' (29:64-66).

Rational Mind wrote: Good, good. She says she is warming up now (what ever that means)

Rationale Mind,

You do not write as before,did you knock out?,if yes,please disappear then let the nexts...ok?