Answering Josh on Prophet’s marriage
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Topic: Answering Josh on Prophet’s marriage
Posted By: Nausheen
Subject: Answering Josh on Prophet’s marriage
Date Posted: 24 April 2005 at 8:23pm
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem, Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim, Josh 87, you did not read a word of what has been said above. Had you done so, my tone would have been different.
We accept the prophet for what he says, because it is a binding on every Muslim to accept what he has to tell us. This is the part of our faith. The Quran orders the muslims to take what the Propeht has to give them! - you dont like it, you are free not to!!
Sure it is a choice thru our will to question, but we choose to submit our will to Allah and His beloved prophet. We trust absolutely in what Allah has told us thru the medium of His most excellent creation. And all shall be judged for the actions and choices of their will. A muslim is one whose will is in the will of Allah.
says who? you? and who are you?
You may think this way, but she was more mature mentally to love, respect, and honor her beloved husband than any who throw alligations on him!
you do not know her! and you will never be able to, because your line of question is not to understand. You are here with a fixed mind set!
THERE IS NO BLAME ON HIM FOR MARRYING A 9 YEAR OLD AISHA(RA)!!
Again, by whose standards those customs were wrong? who are you to judge those custom? and with what principles are you judging those? thru the priniciples of the mordern society? - where a 15 yr old starts dating? where there are more teen age illegitimate pregnancies than a planned one? or thru the priniciples of a society that allows gay marriages!! thru these principles those customs were wrong? right? NO! wrong, dead wrong!!
He was perfect thus he elevated the status of mankind thru his very presence. The favors granted on him in this life and the next are beyond measure. He will be glorified till the end of time, but those who doubt him and bear enimosity for him will perish along with their very names! - this is how perfect he was. None of even his deadly enemies of that time have raised a finger against his marraige to Aisha, do you know this? Or do you know that Aisha (RA) never complained about this, not even once, neither during her marriage, nor when she became a widow? why? who stopped her? Whatever she ever had to say about her husband was only eloquence! And what is your problem with this? Her place is in Jannah, and those who accuse her husband will be cut off from all good, as promised in the Quran!
If YOU think something is wrong does not really make it wrong. You are looking at it from a wrong perspective, that is the only thing wrong about the whole issue. btw, basics of islam are not for you. YOU ARE NOT WELCOME ON THIS FORUM. Please post in a forum we have created for the non-muslims. BECAUSE YOU ARE NO AUTHORITY TO QUESTION OUR BASICS!! N
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
josh87 wrote:Replies:
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 25 April 2005 at 5:13am
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Perhaps Josh is an authority on marriage customs and mores in 8th
century Arabia. 
DavidC |
Posted By: muratkose
Date Posted: 02 June 2005 at 11:32pm
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josh has wrote every objections by considering that our prophet has married to a girl who was 9. 1- In that age the Arabians were used to last digit of the numbers which have two digits. because their tradition is not written but oral. they tried to abbriviate of their speechs. so what if 9 is actually 19? 2- In a hadith Hz. aishe says "when the surah-i Qalam (pen) is revealed i was a kid who is as big as i can remember and I was playing with my friends ." That surah has been revealed in early years of Mecca (thirth or forth year). that time probably she must be at least 7 years old. And the prophet has married to her in the first year of Medinah. (approx. 10 years later). I am sure you can calculate. Peace be with you all!
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Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 3:12pm
According to sahih al-Bukari No. 3633 narrated Aisha "The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of
six.............(truncated).......I was playing in a swing with some of
my girlfriends............Unexpectedly Allah's apostle came to me in
the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I
was a girl of nine years old." Using Islamic calendar system it seems Aisha was closer to eight years old. Sahih al-Bukari No.3635 narrated Hisham's father "................he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years
of age,and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old" Sahih al-Bukari No. 5735 narrated Aisha "I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the prophet, and my grilfriends used to play with me. Sahih al-Bukari No.3613 narrated Um Khalid bint Khalid "When I came from Ethiopia, (to Medina) I was a young girl. Sahih al-Bukari No. 4794narrated Aisha "that the prophet married her when she was six years old and he
consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she
remained with him for nine years (i.e. until his death)" If the first number was left-out of the ages given, then this would
mean that Mohammed was 153 when he married Aisha at 16, consummated the
marriage when she was 19, she stayed with him for 19 years, until his
death at 172. It does not make any sense, as Mohammed was actually 53-54 when he
married Aisha and died when he was 62-63...........so the idea that the
first number was left-out for the ages given is absurd. To Nausheen, where does the information that Mohammed was "perfect" come from? |
Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 4:36pm
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Assalamu alaikum, This was my response to this same subject in another thread: Assalamu alaikum, INCONTROVERTABLE FACT NO. 1: Only the Holy Qur�an is infallible. While many ahaadith rise to the level of �sound,� this does not ensure they are preserved in absolutely uncorrupted form.
INCONTROVERTABLE FACT NO 2: The various ahaadith concerning the marriage of our beloved Prophet, salallahu allaihi wassalam, to Aisha, radiallahu anha, contradict one another. This leads to the logically inescapable conclusion that at least some of these ahaadith have been corrupted.
INCONTROVERTABLE FACT NO 3: Countless experiments on human memory have proven conclusively that even when presented with simple information, the human mind will distort that information, even when the person is deliberately trying to convey the information accurately. See for example http://pages.slc.edu/~ebj/IM_97/Lecture7/L7.html - http://pages.slc.edu/~ebj/IM_97/Lecture7/L7.html
INCONTROVERTABLE FACT NO 4: The overwhelming body of ahaadith concerning the life of our beloved Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, testify to his humility, modesty, self-sacrifice, charity, compassion toward all but especially women and children. In short, the ahaadith describe the perfect example of humanity, and crush into dust the efforts of slanderers to cast even the slightest of doubts about his noble character. Furthermore, he did not seek to marry any other young women, but rather married widows and divorcees, despite the fact that he could have wed anyone he desired.
INCONTROVERTABLE FACT NO 5: Aisha, radiallahu anha, became the Prophet�s most valuable companion, serving him selflessly throughout their marriage to such a degree that she has become known as the mother of all the believers. This confirms that she was Divinely selected to accompany the Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam.
CONCLUSION: The transmission of these ahaadith have been subjected to distortion. All that we can assume from these ahaadith is that Aisha, radiallahu anha, was betrothed to our beloved Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, as a child (a common occurrence in that society) and that the marriage was consummated when she reached puberty (a normal occurrence in nearly all societies prior to the 20th Century).
Those who use these ahaadith to besmirch the name of our beloved Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, have no concern for the truth. Therefore, we should have no concern for them.
Anything of value here is a result of Allah, subhanahu wa ta�ala, while any errors are exclusively my own.
18.21.Thus did We make their case known to the people, that they might know that the promise of Allah is true, and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment. Behold, they dispute among themselves as to their affair. (Some) said, "Construct a building over them": Their Lord knows best about them: those who prevailed over their affair said, "Let us surely build a place of worship over them." 22. (Some) say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them; (others) say they were five, the dog being the sixth,- doubtfully guessing at the unknown; (yet others) say they were seven, the dog being the eighth. Say thou: "My Lord knoweth best their number; It is but few that know their (real case)." Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear, nor consult any of them about (the affair of) the Sleepers. ------------- Yusuf |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 11:14pm
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Thanks Yusuf, Before continuing, how do you paste text into the text pane of this forum? It seems to me this is how you have been able to do this by posting a pre-written response from another forum, here. Is pasting of text on this forum only for a priveleged few, or am I doing something wrong or not aware of a funtion of this forum that provides for pasting text? Getting back to the discussion.
How do you know Quran is infallable? I doubt anyone could honestly say that this is known to them, it is belief at best. Beliefs are not necessarily a sound basis for truth. People used to believe that the earth was flat, it may have been "true" to those people at the time, but it was not true. What "ensures" Quran is "sound" and has been preserved in absolutely uncorrupted form? If it is as you say, that one or some document(s) may be "sound" yet this does not ensure absolutely uncorrupted form, then so too may any other document(s) be subject to the same condition. What "ensures" that only some ahadith have been preserved in absolutely uncorrupted form? Do you really mean to say that this is what you prefer to believe, which of course does not necessarily make it true.
Pickthal:
"He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it
ascends unto Him in a day, wherof the measure is a thousand years of
that ye reckon."
* Sahih al-Bukari No.6728 * Sahih al-Bukari No.1321 * Sahih al-Bukari No.4698 * Sahih al-Bukari No.5913 * Sahih al-Bukari No.4561 * Sahih al-Bukari No.670 * Sahih al-Bukari No.683 * Sahih al-Bukari No.739 * Sahih al-Bukari No.1897 .......................................and the list goes on.
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Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 11:45pm
| http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=4 - This is a good start to understand the 50,000 vs 1,000 years issue. As you can see, the context is always the pitfal of misunderstanding. |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 2:45am
Thanks Deus, I have read the article you linked to. The author is too opinionated to be credible, but it is an interesting display of mental-gymnastics. He/she persists with repeatedly saying such things as "once again the word 'yawm' simply refers to..." without citing any evidence or proof of these assertions. Things to ponder......... Whether a "day" means a part of a day or all of a day, the count of 1,000 or 50,000 still is the number of units/days which may describe whatever portion of each unit. They are the known units of measure for the people who are supposed to understand what is being "revealed" to them. All three translations of Yusuf Ali, Pickthal and Shakir concur that the Arabic word translates to "day" in English, which to anyone of 7th century or anyone of 21st century can clearly understand refers to what a day is to them, i.e. the passage of the sun in the sky from sunrise to sunrise. Had there been any inclining that "period", "term" or "age", etc, had been intended to be transmitted instead of "day", it would surley been contained in their translation into English, as there ARE words in English that provide for such descriptions. Here is a translation of an ayat, from Arabic to English where the translators use the English word "period" Quran: 010:003 "Surely you Lord is Allah, who created the earth in six periods....etc" Here is a translation of another ayat from Arabic to English where the translators use the English word "day", and there are many more. Quran: 002:184 "For a certain number of days.........etc.........then (he shall fast) a (like) number of days....etc..." another..... 002:203 "And laud Allah during the numbered days; then whoever hastens off in two days......etc" Here ia a translation of an ayat from Arabic to English where the English word "term" is used AND the word "day" by the translators, in the SAME sentence......there are many more. 006:060 "And He it is who takes your souls at night, and he knows what you acquire in the day, then He raises you up therein that an appointed term may be fulfilled...etc" Here is an ayat translated from Arabic to English, where the translator has used the English word "age". 078:023 "Living therein for ages" So it appears that clearly a day means a day, a period means a period, a term means a term and an age means an age..................the translations are apparently correct. The Quran was alleged to have been revealed to the people of the day, everyday, normal 7th century people located in Arabian peninsular for them to clearly understand and so it seems at least thse words were clearly understood to mean exactly what they were intended to mean. Quran: 002:242 "Allah thus makes clear to you His communications that you may understand" How often do you think the "daily" five prayers are meant to be recited/practiced?.......every 1 - 1,000 or 50,000 - days, ages, terms or periods? What are the durations of these days, terms, ages or periods?.......what units of measure would be used to describe these durations of time. |
Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 8:14pm
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>>how do you paste text into the text pane of this forum? 1. left click at the point where you wish to begin copying text. 2. highlight the entire text you wish to copy by holding the left click while scrolling down 3. right click and select "copy" (on the Islamicity Quran search, you have to select "edit" in the menu at the top of the screen (assuming you're using internet explorer) and select "copy" from that menu) 4. put the cursor at the point where you wish the text to appear 5. right click and select paste I don't believe that there is a way to prevent an individual from doing this, and even if there was, I've been on this board for years and was a moderator myself for a time, and that's just not something the moderators would do here. ------------- Yusuf |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 11:00pm
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To Jazz: You're missing the point. The two verses have different contexts. One verse is speaking about a "day" with God being equal to 1000 human years. The other verse speaks of the Spirit (ruh) ascending in a "day" ("period" would make more sense in this verse) that is equal to 50,000 human years. |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 17 July 2005 at 9:47am
Dear Deus, This is not about what you might prefer Quran to say or what "would make more sense", as by saying this you are conceding that Quran makes no sense in this instance. This is the point, one ayat speaks of a "day" being 1,000 years and the other speaks of a "day" being 50,000 years. As I have pointed out there are clear distinctions in the translations between "period", "age", "term" and "day", and this is emphasized by showing the translation of "day" and "term' within the same sentence of an ayat. Would you kindly elaborate on how I am "missing the point"? Your explanation makes no sense, so too the explanation in the site you referred to. I have clearly shown this. What difference does it make what happens in the "day", whether it is the spirit or anything else? Here are the verses in question again, with only the relevant text from each this time. This is clearly a contradiction in Quran. From Muslim Students Association database translations. A day to Allah is equal to one thousand years of man. Pickthal: ".......a day, wherof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon." Shakir: ".......a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count." Pickthal: "........a day whereof the span is fifty-thousand years." Shakir: "........a day the measure of which is fifty-thousand years." Now kindly explain how one could be missing something. |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 17 July 2005 at 9:50am
Thank you Yusuf. It seems it must have been that I was using MozillaFirefox browser, as when I used Internet Explorer the paste feature became available. Thanks again. |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 17 July 2005 at 10:49am
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To Jazz, Would it more make sense to you if you replace the word "day" in both verses (i.e. 32:05 and 70:04) with the word "period"? |
Posted By: muratkose
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 6:40am
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Assalamu Alaikum everyone This is the explanation on Muhammad Asad about time concept. The very concept of "time" is meaningless in relation to God, who is timeless and infinite: cf. note 63 on the last sentence of 22:47 - "in thy Sustainer's sight a day is like a thousand years of your reckoning": in other words, a day, or an aeon, or a thousand years, or fifty thousand years are alike to Him, having an apparent reality only within the created world and none with the Creator. And since in the hereafter time will cease to have a meaning for man as well, it is irrelevant to ask as to "when" the evildoers will be chastised and the righteous given their due. http://www.geocities.com/masad02/070.html - http://www.geocities.com/masad02/070.html |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 9:38am
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Yes, muratkose, I was going to explain that too, but Jazz seems to be looking for something more straightforward logical. But it's a valid point that I myself believe in. |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 2:16pm
Thanks Muratkose, The fact still remains that there is a contradiction between the two ayats. Most of Quran deals with the reality of the created world, is this not why it is alleged to have been revealed? The afterlife is a part of God's creation to, is it not? Here are some ayats which discuss the "evildoers" which seem to place some urgency on having them dealt with in a time that is, according to your theory, irrelevent to God's timelessness. Quran makes numerous mentions of God's punishment in the timeless afterlife, ie. firey hell, etc..........now why would God be apparently impatient to have punishments metered out at anytime prior to His already ordained timeless afterlife punishment period? Here are the ayats...... [3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust. [9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people. Why would an almighty creator need mere humans to punish anyone of his created on his behalf?...........is he lacking in ability to do this himself?.......afterall He has already prepared a firey hell and eternal punishment. So what might be the urgency to have punishments applied by mere humans in this "created" life when God already has the punishments catered for in his created/uncreated afterlife...........could it be that time IS an issue to the creator? |
Posted By: copenhagen
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 5:05pm
Just some words of wisdom from a long time lurker -- NEVER say the above or anything that could possibly be interpreted as implying such a thing (at least in a muslim forum). Better: "At present, from my limited understanding, I am having difficulty reconciling these two ayat. Could you please better explain the context to me." Makes for a much fruitful dialogue. ------------- Some people before you asked questions, and on that account lost their faith. |
Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 5:31pm
My pleasure. ------------- Yusuf |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 7:48pm
Jazz... would your next question be: "If a God exists, why is there so much suffering in this world?" 
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Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 2:52pm
Hi Deus, Not at all, the existence of god can not be proven nor dis-proven. This is not the issue here anyway. A question for you Deus.............. If Quran were not to be authored by God and if Mohammed were to be a deceiver and a liar, would this necessarily be evidence of the non-existence of God? |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 4:17pm
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Quoting you, "the existence of god can not be proven nor dis-proven." |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 2:56am
Would it be evidence though? |
Posted By: muratkose
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 1:02pm
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Hello Jazz! If I didn't misunderstanda you have two questions: 1- Why does God punish bad people by the hands of muslims not by himself? 2- why does He punish them here not afterlife? 1- This is the sunnetullah (principles of Allah). He never does what he wishes by himself directly in this world. He uses the reasons. If he wants to recover a patient he uses a doctor and medicine. If he wishes to punish the people he uses natural disasters, wars, deseases etc. That's the virtue of a muslim. A muslim must see God in every events. If God does it by himself nobody denys Him. But this world is a place of test. If you give the answers during the test, the test would be unfair. That's why we pray Allah for recovery, peace, success etc. Doctors and events are means of Allah but he is going to do everything by himself clearly afterlife. Imagine if anyone who makes a bad thing is punished (by a thunder for example 2- The punishments of this life are just a little part of the whole punishment. The muslims are also punished in this world. Our prophet says "the prophets are the people who suffered most among whole humanbeing." But every bad thing you live here erase your sins which will be punished in Hell. The ayat you wrote (9:14) must be evaluated by considering the other ayats in that passage. The ayats ask the muslims to fight against who infringed the agreement. and Allah asks "Are you afraid of them?" He wants to tell that he is not going to live muslims alone. I mean when you read Quran the question must be asked is :" What does Allah want to say?" instead of asking "what is he saying?" If a finger indicates the moon we must look at the moon not the finger. Meanwhile I appreciate your effort to find the truth. You read and try to understand Quran more than most of the muslims. I hope Allah helps you find the truth. |
) immediately nobody would do any bad thing anymore.Posted By: masad
Date Posted: 05 September 2005 at 12:58am
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Hello and Salam If Jazz was genuinely interested in learning then maybe he or she wouldnt have followers supporting this mischief at the classical anti Islam site (faithfreedom.org) or so it seems (see http://www.faithfreedom.org/holiday/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=143&start=15 - http://www.faithfreedom.org/holiday/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1 43&start=15 ) At least be truthful why you're asking these questions instead of trying to fake sincerity. Regarding God, scientific proof- as we advance on the road to science the case for God has become quite established, here is a well documented article http://god.rationalreality.com - http://god.rationalreality.com
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