Interfaith Dialogue - Scary Video of Jesus Camp

Print Page | Close Window

Scary Video of Jesus Camp

Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6977
Printed Date: 30 November 2024 at 2:56am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com

Topic: Scary Video of Jesus Camp

Posted By: Angela
Subject: Scary Video of Jesus Camp
Date Posted: 28 September 2006 at 10:32am

http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=6bff15ef-1f31-46e7-9675-efefee5a10dc&f=00&fg=copy - http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=6bff15ef-1f31-46e7-967 5-efefee5a10dc&f=00&fg=copy

Wow, this is scary.

Replies:

Posted By: Sawtul Khilafah
Date Posted: 28 September 2006 at 4:46pm

Well the video was ok, until I saw them praying for GEORGE BUSH!!!

Those kids really need to know about Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove and the Thule Society and learn what Bush and his administration Really believe in.

Posted By: Hanan
Date Posted: 28 September 2006 at 4:52pm

Fundamentalist Camp Trains God's Little Army

9.28.2006 -- They have billions in media holdings, the ear of the president, and the ability to make or break a Republican candidacy. To Becky Fischer, however, former manager of a custom sign business and current children's minister, evangelicals are in danger of losing the next generation. Unimpressed by the fact that 43 percent of America's 100 million evangelicals accepted Christ before the age of 13, Fischer set out to ensure that a new generation of Americans are instilled with a "Christian worldview." "If we wait until they are teens," she remarks, "we have waited too late!"

You've probably seen the ads on the internet of an all-American girl, eyes skyward, the spitting image of a beatific Medieval icon painting. Against the backdrop of the Samuel Alito hearings, "Jesus Camp" follows 11-year-old Tory and a pack of young campers at Kids On Fire Summer Camp, which is the basic training for "God's army." Fischer is Kids On Fire's drill sergeant, and her mission is to empower kids to heal "this ... sick old world." Fischer's zeal is infectious, her belief unshakable, and her will strong. It's not difficult to see why the filmmakers were delighted to find her.

The kids, some of whom are jarringly precocious ("Because I just wanted more of life," one says), are respectful and supportive of one another, attentive to their elders and as humorously oblivious about the secular world as most AlterNet readers are about the evangelical reality. A clip over the closing credits features a young girl who approaches a pair of elderly gentlemen in folding chairs to ask if they know where they're going when they die. After they confidently assert that they're going to heaven, the girl wanders away, uttering offhand to her companion that she thought they might be Muslims.

The age of the kids (some as young as 6 years old) combined with Fischer's bellicose language (she openly refers to their mission as "war"), will undoubtedly make some, as filmmaker Heidi Ewing says below, "pretty uncomfortable." In that sense, "Jesus Camp" doubles as a perfectly entertaining horror flick for secular progressives -- or anyone outside the evangelical community, for that matter. But to leave it at that would be wildly off the mark and just as parochial as the triumphalist evangelicals depicted.

I've argued in PEEK that, just as progressives urge fearful conservatives to probe the phenomenon of terrorism, so must secular progressives probe the activist evangelical mindset. On the other hand, it's natural for a nonevangelical to be utterly turned off by some of the politically charged elements of the film, most of which are aired without counterpoint.

My response to Jesus Camp is similar to the nagging feeling that followed Errol Morris' brilliant Fog of War. That film, you'll recall, was essentially a conversation with Vietnam-era Secretary of Defense Robert Strange McNamara. The 86-year-old McNamara comes off looking like a contrite old man, consumed by self-deception, peppered with startling statements like, "We were behaving as war criminals."

My desire for a ferocious counterargument and an overarching condemnation left me feeling nervous about whether the proper gravity had been afforded the subject. Likewise, although "Jesus Camp" includes a few clips from Air America's liberal Christian host, Mike Papantonio, the rhetoric of Becky Fischer, Ted Haggard and the rest of the film's cast of characters simply sits on screen; take it or leave it.

In the final tally, access has its price, and art should not be polemical. Filmmakers Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady sought to make art and received access in exchange. That access ironically provides opponents with a great deal of insight into this political powerhouse, should they choose to approach it with courage and the desire to see the community's humanity. As they say below, "If people have a problem with what they're doing then they should take a page out of the playbook and start to get involved themselves." Amen.

In most cases, Ewing and Grady, who are close friends as well as co-directors, spoke as any couple would. Which is to say, over each other and finishing each other's sentences. When it was important to separate their responses, I did so (as in the case with their backgrounds). Otherwise, the answers can be seen as a coming from "the directors." -- Ed.

Derkacz: So what inspired you to make "Jesus Camp"? Why now?

Heidi and I were looking for a story about children and faith, and we were inspired by a child from our last film, the "Boys of Baraka," Devon, who was a Baptist preacher, a 12-year-old. He really provoked us to start thinking about where faith comes from: Why is one kid more devout than another? Where does that come from? How does that happen?

Derkacz: What were each of your relationships to religion, spirituality and evangelical Christianity before and after "Jesus Camp"?

Grady: I was raised as a Jew, so my experience with born-again Christians was limited, though it wasn't nothing.

Ewing: I was raised Catholic in a Jewish and Catholic neighborhood, but I didn't have much experience with evangelicals. There was a beginner's eye that we walked into the thing with, for which I'm actually grateful. I think if I walked in with all these negative experiences, or if I'd been a born-again Christian, it would definitely have colored my view of this community.

It was more like being an anthropologist in a way. I don't mean to denigrate anyone by saying this, but it did feel like we were sort of fresh and I'd never seen children exposed to this kind of extreme and intense worship. I was definitely surprised and astonished and confused at first as to what exactly was going on. Of course, the Pentecostal experience and charismatic experience is way more expressive and kind of wild than a lot of other evangelical denominations. So it made it even more gripping for us.

Derkacz: But you felt welcomed by the evangelical community?

Yeah! They were incredibly warm and gracious. It's a caring group of people. I think it was important for Heidi and me to spend time with them. It draws out what people have in common and the humanity of an individual or group of people.

Derkacz: The kids and adults in "Jesus Camp" appear remarkably happy and supportive of each other. Did you feel like they were generally more happy than the population at large?

Well, I wouldn't use the word "happy." They seem ... they don't have a lot of angst. They have a very firm, black-and-white worldview, and I think it simplifies things. They don't have a lot of unanswered questions. They didn't have the anxiety that a lot of Americans are saddled with.

So were you ever tempted to be saved?

Grady: Mmmm, no. Can't say that I was.

Ewing: Nah, not really.

Derkacz: In a blog post I wrote, after first watching "Jesus Camp," one of the commenters wrote that "this film shows 'child abuse,'" a sentiment echoed by others. Do you think the treatment of kids in the film was abusive in any way?

I don't know where the line should be drawn exactly. Terms like "child abuse" and "brainwashing," are loaded terms. When you use a word like "brainwashing," the game is over. It's a difficult question, and I really don't know where I stand on it to this day.

Something may appear abusive or just too intense for a child at first glance, but then you get to know the kids, and you go home with them, have meals with them. When you observe them in their home environment with their brothers and sisters, they seem well-adjusted, willingly reading the Bible.

It's hard for me to just walk away after a year and say, "Yup, this is child abuse. I know it when I see it." What they're going through is extremely intense and pretty radical compared to the mainstream American culture. It's not the norm at all. Some people who see the film will be pretty uncomfortable with the education or indoctrination of these kids. I think it's up to individuals to decide. If we're parsing terms, nobody's doing anything illegal. But I think it's questionable to some people as possibly not good for the kids.

Derkacz: So you had no political agenda?

No, in fact there was nothing political about our initial intentions at all. We were interested in the theology and the faith aspect of this particular group. But after filming several days and seeing the reaction of the community when there was movement in the news or in politics -- for example, Sandra Day O'Connor, who resigned two weeks after we started shooting. I had never seen a group rejoice in such an aggressive way -- well, not aggressive, just incredibly joyful. It was fascinating. Heidi and I realized that we could not avoid the political ramifications of the community; that in fact, they're so intertwined that these people have become de facto political activists, although they don't see themselves in that way.

Derkacz: The film doesn't take any particular political stance, but you did provide a counterpoint to the rhetoric of the evangelical community in the form of Air America's Mike Papantonio, a liberal Christian and a fierce critic of the Christian right. I'm curious about that decision.

It was important that the critic be a Christian so that it's relevant to the people in the film. As it became obvious to us that there were some pretty strong political overtones going on throughout, we thought that it was important to contextualize what was being shown. For example, in the abortion debate, the evangelical leadership and the constituents are all on the same page.

It was important to include a Christian who does not believe in the politicization of the religion. Without him there'd be a flatness to it; there'd be no one disagreeing with what was being seen on the screen. In a lot of ways, Mike voices what at least 50 percent of our audience is thinking, a necessary element to create a nuanced film.

Derkacz: I understand that you screened "Jesus Camp" with the subjects of the film and the community. What were the reactions from Becky Fischer, the kids, and their parents? How about Ted Haggard's New Life Church?

Everyone portrayed in the film supports and likes it except for Ted Haggard, who is the head of the New Life Church -- he's featured at the end of the film. He's a very important, politically active figure.

That's disappointing to most of the people in the film because they really like it, and they feel like it's stinging to them that he would reject the movie, because they think what they were doing was part of the greater evangelical movement and part of his family, though he's rejecting the film on various grounds

But Becky really likes the film, the parents feel they were accurately portrayed. To this day, they don't consider themselves political at all. So they take issue with the concept that they're politically active, although we maintain that what they consider a moral life -- you know, doing "God's will" -- appears political to a lot of people.

So they understand why we perceive that to be true, but they still don't consider themselves very active even though they know the voting records on all their local congressman and are very knowledgable about the issues. They listen to Focus on the Family and James Dobson. But they just feel like they're doing "what God wants them to do, and if you want to call that political then that's fine with us."

That was the one thing that threw us for a loop. That they're all behind the movie and encouraging their churches and their communities to see it.

Derkacz: I hate to lump them together given what you've just told me, but do you think that this movement somehow endangers America as we know it, as a nation that adheres to the Constitution above any theocratic leadership?

Well, there's an inherent problem here, which is that there is a massive number of Americans who do believe that the founding fathers intended to found a much more Christian state. That the Constitution is based on the Ten Commandments. There are a lot of people who will tell you that, who believe that to be true. I think that when you've got, I think, 67 percent of Americans believing that the founding fathers intended to found something like a Christian state, it's really hard to counteract those numbers.

I do believe in separation of church and state; I do believe it's being blurred. Especially in the last ten years. But that's bound to happen when you've got 50 percent of a population that doesn't vote and most evangelicals who do. So you've got a minority that's starting to feel like a majority because they're involved and politically engaged, and they care, and they're up on the issues, and they're not cynical about their influence, and they believe that their vote counts and that they can make changes, and they're going to do that until further notice. So I think if people have a problem with what they're doing, then they should take a page out of the playbook and start to get involved themselves.

I really do think that unless something changes in the political landscape, unless moderates and liberals decide they want to get active and vote and become knowldedgable, I see that separation between church and state getting even blurrier. I really do. It's something to take notice of. Evan Derkacz, AlterNet

Posted By: think.box
Date Posted: 29 September 2006 at 7:07am

Sawtul Khilafah wrote:

Well the video was ok, until I saw them praying for GEORGE BUSH!!!

Those kids really need to know about Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove and the Thule Society and learn what Bush and his administration Really believe in.

Can you please enlighten me on these subjects? I am not familiar with these things you say.

I do not think this group of radical Christians were necessarily praying specifically for Bush to succeed, but for God to help give his administration and him wisdom while in office. Bottom line is I think they would be praying for whomever was in office...democrat or republican.

Posted By: muslim-mother
Date Posted: 11 October 2006 at 12:43am

Angela wrote:

http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=6bff15ef-1f31-46e7-9675-efefee5a10dc&f=00&fg=copy - http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=6bff15ef-1f31-46e7-967 5-efefee5a10dc&f=00&fg=copy

Wow, this is scary.

I saw the video but I have an article for you to read carefully , This is published in islamtoday.com

Zayn al-`�bid�n al-Rik�b�
Al-Sharq al-Awsat Newspaper

This is an open letter to the President of the United States, George W. Bush.

The relationship between the United States and the Islamic world has become extremely shaky and tattered in the past few years. This is the bitter truth that no rational person in America or the Muslim world can be happy with. You were well aware of this, Mr. President, during your presidential election campaign, when you said that hostility towards the United States has increased among Arab people.

You had tried to remedy this problem on the national level when you said during the same campaign: "Our nation is chosen by God and commissioned by history to be a model to the world of justice and inclusion and diversity without division. Jews and Christians and Muslims speak as one in their commitment to a kind, just, tolerant society."

You stressed this idea and entrenched it further when you said during your inaugural address: "Church and charity, synagogue and mosque lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and in our laws."

Your orientation had been wise and just, since Muslim Americans form part of the fabric of American society. The dictates of national unity require that they be given the same rights and opportunities as the Jews and Christians.

However, the criminal acts that took place on September 11, 2001 seem to have destroyed this policy on both fronts: domestically and globally. Ever since that time, the media has been attacking the Muslims, utilizing Americans of all walks of life to degrade them and spoil their image. This defamation quickly turned to the religion itself, attacking both the message of Islam and its Messenger. One federal official sneered at the God whom the Muslims worship, and though the Qur'�n says: "Your God and our God are One, he said: "The God of the Muslims instigates them to kill others by perpetrating suicide attacks. He is a God who sends people to death for his sake."

American religious leaders who are closely connected to the Bush administration are now in the habit of making clear and direct insults against the Qur'�n, Islam, and the Prophet Muhammad. One of them has said: "The Qur'�n is the source of violence." Another has said: "Islam is a great Satan." Still another has said: "Prophet Muhammad was a murderer, a terrorist, and an utter bigot." This is a transgression against the religion of America's Muslims and the beliefs of Muslims worldwide.

When violence was perpetrated against you, the American people, in your own country, you mobilized everything you could, American and otherwise, to counteract that violence and preserve America's dignity and prestige. Without diminishing anything from your sense of pride and enthusiasm for your civilization, we must mention that the Messenger of Islam has a place of honor in the hearts of Muslims that is only exceeded by their love and reverence for God. Just as you have the right to rush to defend your sanctity and your national integrity, the Muslims have the right to defend their Prophet with every legal means at their disposal.

We must all admit to the facts. We confess that there are extremists in our midst who are working to destroy the relationship between America and the Muslim world. We must also all admit that within America as well there are extremists trying to achieve the same thing. The major difference between the two factions is that the Muslim extremists are not operating in an official capacity, nor do they have close ties to people in power. In fact, religious and political officials have all condemned them. The extremists in America, however, are often either officials themselves or have close ties to those in power. None of the Muslim extremists would ever dare to speak ill of Christ (peace be upon him), whereas the extremists in America slander Muhammad (peace be upon him) incessantly. This is only by way of comparison. No one in his right mind can ever make light of the crimes perpetrated on September 11 by those Muslim extremists.

Rest assured, Mr. President, no matter how much and how horribly they slander our Prophet, we will never retaliate with the same, since retaliation means slandering Jesus Christ which is something we can never do. We cannot cast doubts about his character or about his prophetic status. If any Muslim ever does so, he will become an unbeliever in Muhammad as well.

When you were running for governor in Texas, you said that belief in Jesus was a precondition for entry into Heaven. You got an angry response from a well known group of people who do not believe in Jesus Christ. We, on the other hand, supported you in your belief, not as a political ploy, nor as a pragmatic stratagem, but because it is a pillar of our Islamic faith. Belief in Jesus, for Muslims, is on the path to Heaven. Our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Whoever bears witness that there is no God besides God, that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger, and that Jesus is His servant and Messenger and His Word that He bestowed upon Mary and a Spirit from Him, and that Heaven is real and that Hell is real, then God will admit him into Heaven on whatever deeds he has done."

Christ in Islam is depicted in a most beautiful and complete manner. According to Islam, his birth was miraculous as he was born of a virgin. His Message and his teachings were equally miraculous. He will always be honored in this world and the Hereafter. He was brought up to his Lord and will return again at the end of time with mercy and peace, giving glad tidings of the true faith, and working with the Muslims in righteousness and piety and the noblest of deeds.

This is how Islam depicts Jesus (peace be upon him). To Muslims, his call is to righteousness, honor, and respect among people. Insightful Christians see his call in the same light. He did not call to rancor and the slander of prophets.

Humanity has suffered enough from the evil that people inflict upon each other. Evil deeds have evil ideas behind them, ideas based on bigotry and fanaticism. The most dangerous of these evil ideas are those that are depicted as religion and interwoven with religious teachings.

There are religious awakenings going on all over the world today and it would be quite wrong to claim that these awakenings are limited to Muslim peoples. Such awakenings are taking place in all the major religions; they are taking place among Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, and others.

For a number of reasons, the world today is witnessing a lot of religious tensions with dangerous implications. There are three possible options for dealing with this religious tension. One option would be to abolish all religious awakenings, which is quite impossible. Another option is to allow the tensions to escalate until they lead to conflict and violence. The third option is for rational people of all faiths to agree that they have to work to reduce these tensions. The first step in doing this would be for everyone to cease slandering prophets and messengers.

History has been witness to horrible religious wars that gave official spiritual sanction to the murder of innocents. A man would slaughter his fellow man with the certainty that he was attaining nearness to God by doing so. The Crusades were a perfect example of such wars as were the internal religious wars that took place in Europe.

The earliest settlers in America came from Europe to establish a life for themselves that was free from the religious wars that were ravaging their homelands. In view of avoiding similar religious tensions and conflicts, the First Amendment of the American Constitution states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

One of America's founding fathers, the President Thomas Jefferson, explained that the clause was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State."

In 1899, the US Supreme Court interpreted the First Amendment in the following manner: "Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another."

There can be no doubt that the horrible religious wars experienced in Europe were present in the thoughts of those who drafted the First Amendment as well as those who interpreted it. Relief from religious bigotry was what set America apart as a country of tolerance and broad horizons, and it is these qualities that America's extremists want to do away with. In the process, America's image abroad is getting tarnished. Meanwhile, the State Department and a special congressional committee are still working hard to improve America's image in the Muslim and Arab world. This is a sensible effort, since no right-minded individual or nation wants to be viewed by others in an ugly light. Image is very important.

At the same time, it is not sensible for America to work to better its image while doing nothing to address the extremists who are demolishing those efforts. America can not just ignore what these people are doing. How can America hope to improve its image among Muslims worldwide while prominent Americans are attacking the Prophet of Islam who is dearer to the hearts of Muslims than their own parents and children?

We admit that it is wrong for us to make generalizations about America on account of these extremists, but their instigation has gone way overboard. Their media attack has taken defamation of Islam and its Prophet as its objective. By doing so, they allow people to interpret every American policy towards the Muslim world after September 11 as being religiously motivated. Worse than that, they help the terrorists in the Muslim world by confirming their claims that America is an open aggressor at war with Islam.

You do not need to be reminded that the souring of relations between the United States and the expansive Muslim world is not in the interests of national security.

After September 11, the possibility of getting the media to restrain itself for the sake of national security was demonstrated. Therefore, the American government can help to deal with this aggression against what is sacred to Muslims. Freedom of speech comes with a responsibility to be sensitive to the beliefs of other people. It is the responsibility of rational people both in America and the Islamic world to hasten sincerely and diligently to prevent the events of September 11 from transforming into a religious conflict in which weapons of mass destruction might be involved.

With sincerity and honesty, we say: The hearts of the Muslims around the world are burning with anger because of this attack on Islam and its Messenger. If this anger was unjustified, we would have been the first to dismiss it. But it is justified. What believer in God does not get angry when God Himself is slandered and His Prophets defamed?

Speak, Mr. President. Say the historic words that will officially distance the American government from these far-reaching abuses against Islam. Speak for the sake of a stronger and more beneficial relationship between America and the Muslim world, a relationship that all of us need. Speak to help protect our world from burning in the flames of mindless religious bigotry. If you do so, it would be truly noble.

----------end

Finally i am so fed up of seeing extremists from any religion

Enough is enough

Posted By: Hanan
Date Posted: 11 October 2006 at 8:08am

Thank you muslim-mother

Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 11 October 2006 at 8:27am

This is one of the scariest things I have ever seen. I mean come on....kids raising their hands when asked "Who here would give up their lives for Jesus" that's some scary scary stuff... I think they should stop looking for Osama and see whats going on in their own backyard.

This is just like the terrorist training camp videos.We must wake up and realize that we have Osamas and others like in this country.

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 11 October 2006 at 8:44am

Yeah pretty much, these guys are really in the same catagory as the "Extremist" Muslims. They aren't the norm, but they are loud enough to make people take notice and cringe in fear.