I saw a comment in one of the sections which says Islam looks bad if muslims practice polygamy in the west.

This note is an objection to that comment.

Polygamy is made permissible by Allah. Something to which allah has given permission, should it become a reason for Islam to look bad?

What islam is it that looks bad under the permissions, wisdoms, and mercies of Allah?

What Islam do we follow? Is it of our whims and comforts, or the Islam that Allah and His rasul has ordained on us?

Did rasul allah sallallahu alaihe wassallam not take 11 wives? Is it that this aspect of his (saw) life makes islam look bad ?? nauzubillah!! He (saw) was the best in character and behaviour. It is reported through our mother Aysha (ra) that his (saw) character was the Quran. He (saw) lived in a polygamous situation.  Did the one (saw) whose character was Quran made islam look bad by taking multiple wives?

Polygamy is illegal in the west, but homosexuality is not. Is this not a joke in itself??

Allah forbids homosexuality however the west does not shy from it. Allah forbids fornication and adultery, and the west does not shy from that either. In the west they have common law partners, and that does not infringe upon their rights as a human being ... and all of this is okay (?) But polygamous practices should generate intolerance between the adherents of faith?  

Where are we comming from if we have intolerence towards muslims for reason that are clearly acceptable in Islam!!

Another thing that should be pointed out is, Islam is the deen of Allah. Nobody can make it look bad or look good. It is the decree of Allah and Allah is free of any need. Muslims by some of their activities may make themselves look bad, but they cannot marr Islam.  

I do not deny muslim men have married in the west sometimes for all wrong reasons. However may the person giving out such a comment as above be reminded, men have married and used women in the west even in a mongamous situation. They have used women for resident status, money, security and all that which a man may be accused of doing in a polygamous relationship.  However polygamy or for that matter marriage in Islam is not meant for any of this. As a muslim one has a duty to object to these practices, but not through having intolerance.  Muslim community should be like one body, so if there is evil in any part of the society, strong steps are needed to correct it.

The one who is intolerant towards muslim men who may be in a polygamous situation due to a genuine reason, has allianated himself/herself from the community. There is a reward in all permissible actions if the intentions behind those are pure, and allah looks upon this person with a gaze of mercy, so being intolerent to them is an error!!

Marriage is a noble act which is also part of life. Children are the result of this act and from this human existance sustained or even growing. Polygyny is an act of necessaty when the number of men are lower than th females. When a wife lost the husband for any reason it is a noble act for a married man to marry the lonely and the needy widow instead of making du'a and debating about them because the old opinion said so. These the voices of old are need to be rectified. Just like the law in the OT which forbid the flesh of camels. Camels were very valuable animals for transportation need, and it was not wise to use them as food consumption, just like the cows in India in the past. But when the number of camels were reasonably high than it was allowed to be consumed as it is written in the Qur'an.

But it is nothing more than greed or lust when having more than one wife when many men struggling to find one. In the end common sense applies.

if the above is correct, then what about taqdeer. are our lives not pre determined by Allah SWA. Dont all things happen only with the permission of Allah SWA. we as human beings have limited knowledge n we may trun away from something which is good for us, n go towrds soemthing which is bad for us. Hence Allah SWA knows best concerning us.

we should not be rebellious and arrogant and fool ourselves into thinking that we are in control, as Allah SWA is the best of planners. in wahtever we do, we should never froget that in the end it is the will of Allah that will prevail

just my understanding. hope i havent offended anyone

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

There are so many things that people would say that causes a shame to them, its just that our understanding falls short not that particular law. Because those beautifull laws are made by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and nothing less of perfect comes from our Lord.

I have noticed that us muslims have made a habbit that things we dont understand we call it not necessary to believe if we dont want to. I dont even think that wanting another wife is only allowed in necessaty, ayah of Holy Quran uses words which means like a women not need another women. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has made nature of men and women different. A women when she gets married and have kids with some1, keeping in mind that according to islam she dint have no relationship before that, she makes a special bond and love for her husband and father of her kids. Unless he treats her unjust there is very less chance that she would want to look some where else. A man however is different, i am not trying to say he looks for some1 else but even though he is in a blissful marriage, he could still like another lady. In this case it is permitted that he gives his likeness a halal form and thats all Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is allowing. But if you look at the ayaat then scholars say that emphasis in those ayaat is not having more than one but it emphasizes one but allows more.

At end of the day sister we are being unjust to our own soul by trying to make excuses because if we sincerely want to learn and understand some thing all we need is to ask Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala for better understanding. And believe me He is so Mercifull that He hates to send us back empty handed.

wassalam

 which part?

the part abt a habitat of things we dont understand? what things are u referring to here?

then the part abt women not needing another women?

its just that i became confused on reading this post.

If I may join this discussion.  It is one that has affected my church (the Mormons) for many years.  The anti polygamy laws that are in place in the United States are a direct result of the persecution of my people.  We resisted for many years, but eventually, the United States government threatened to take our Temples, homes and farms if we did not end the Practice.  The President of our Church at the time prayed what to do about it and the Lord commanded us to obey the law and protect out temples.

Many of these marriages were not "paper" marriages, meaning there was only a religious ceremony and no registration with the government.  The same is the case with the Fundamentalists in Southern Utah and Northern Arizona.  They only marry one wife legally and the others spiritually.  But, legally, they can still be prosecuted under the law. 

They teach that polygamy is a requirement of men.  From what I understand in Islam, a man is not required to take more than one wife.  He's actually commanded not to unless they can treat all their wives equally. 

The question becomes, is a man treating his wives equally if the family becomes in jeopardy by the breaking of the law.  According to US inheritance laws (which are far from Islamic) and other laws, Polygamous wives would not get social security benefits from their husbands, health insurance or legal protection in the case of a divorce because she's not really married.  The courts could not enforce maintenance and property rights would be a real issue.

Also, the second wife would not be recognized as legally his wife.  Although the Islamic community might see them as married, the rest would not.  Her children would be in a purely legal term, illegitimate, and she would face social stigma.  Is this far to her? 

What would be the need for a woman to live like this?  Is it treating her fairly and equally.  If the husband dies, in the US, by default, the first wife would get everything.  This is especially the case if the husband was young and didn't have his will set up properly.  If the first wife despises the second wife (is happens sadly) she could really hurt her co-wife.  Human failings are many.

I wish we could change society that things like polygamy were more accepted and things like homosexuality were not.  However, the US is a hypocritical government.  They can make no law that favors one religious belief, but yet, they banned polygamy. 

Fundamentalist Mormons occasionally sue for the anti-polygamy laws to be repealed.  The Main Church tried and failed many many many years ago.

If Muslims wish to practice plural marriage, then I really suggest they start challenging the laws.  However, I don't think its fair that even though my faith accepts the practice, that we cannot disrespect the laws of the land and yet, you seem so willing to do so.

If a Muslim man is that desperate for a second wife, perhaps he should rethink living in a place where that is illegal.

This country is disintegrating morally, and we are losing our values.  I really wonder sometimes why people WANT to live here. 

im surah Ar Rahman, it states that " and everyday He (ALLAH SWA ) excercises universal power." all lands whether its the USA or wherever, at the end of the day, No man made law can be above Allah SWAs law. so even if the country doesnt recognise polygamy n u are considered not legally married in that country, what does it matter, cos when u die, its Allah SWAs Law that u will be held accountable for n not some ordinance or Act of Utah or South Africa

Im an attorney. But i chose not to register my marriage legally cos i was of the belief that the legal system of this land is not in keeping with Allahs Law and it was by choice that i only made Nikah. Depsite my ex hubby begging me time n time again to get the marriaeg registered, i refused becos to me, the Nikah is binding and that was sufficient. but thats just me

i respect people who wish to have their marriages resgistred acccording to the laws of the land where they reside, becos they do this to safeguard themselves, should things go wrong.

but one cant be forced into entering into a legally binding marriage. if one is happy with Nikah, then Alhamdulilah

There was a body formed in 2000 in South Africa for the recognition of Muslim Personal Law. but this hasnt materialilsed yet. we had speakers from Islamic contries advsing us on Sharia Law and how its implemented in their courts

Even when it comes to the children, here in South Africa, children do inherit form their biological father. he need not be married to the mother in order for this to happen. Even children where parenst are not married  legally, can have their fathers last name, and  their fathers name is added to their birth Certificate, so should the father die, and there is no will,  these children will have equal rights to his estate, same like his kids from the legal marriage

its only the second wife who will not inherit from her hubby unless he makes a will n shes in it

so things are not so bad in South Africa. even if the breadwinner dies in a motor accident n theres a claim for loss of support, all his children, whether from a legal marriaeg or not will share in the claim, equally.

these kids are no longer known as illegitimate as was the case before. they are called extra marital children n they have equal rights with other children of the man in question.  Insha Allah more refroms will be made, and in time, even the second , third n fourth wives will get due recognition

Fatima,

Thank you for your concern on this thread.  Jazak allah khair.

Angela:

The question becomes, is a man treating his wives equally if the family becomes in jeopardy by the breaking of the law.  According to US inheritance laws (which are far from Islamic) and other laws, Polygamous wives would not get social security benefits from their husbands, health insurance or legal protection in the case of a divorce because she's not really married.  The courts could not enforce maintenance and property rights would be a real issue. Also, the second wife would not be recognized as legally his wife.  Although the Islamic community might see them as married, the rest would not.  Her children would be in a purely legal term, illegitimate, and she would face social stigma.  Is this far to her?  What would be the need for a woman to live like this?  Is it treating her fairly and equally.  If the husband dies, in the US, by default, the first wife would get everything.  This is especially the case if the husband was young and didn't have his will set up properly.  If the first wife despises the second wife (is happens sadly) she could really hurt her co-wife.  Human failings are many.

All of this is true even if a man in US takes a woman who he does not marry. This other woman is not his wife in the eyes of the society, and his kid are illegitimate. However there is a difference between such a man and the one who is married in the eyes of Allah .... this second man is not committing adultry as per the divine law, however the first one is ... this is a great great diff.

I do not have a lot of time at the moment, but insha allah I will return to this thread later.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Sister rookaiya what i was saying in first post was that us muslim have made this a habbit that things we dont understand or dont want to follow we discard them saying they are not necessary, or it dont apply no more and things like that.

About women not needing or thinking about another man is in case of a blissfull marriage. I was reading this research on psychology of men and women and it stated that for a women her first emotional and physical relation stays with her forever. While a man can actually love two women at the same time . If we look at islamic setting then when a girl gets married that is her first relation and so she would cherish it for rest of her life if he treats her good and keeps her happy. So there is almost no chance of her being interested in another person. On the other hand a guy could be really happy in his life and still could develop feelings for some1. Our sheikh explained it beautifully that when we say this we are not putting blame on the men, its just maybe all this guy knows is good character of this women and in his heart he thinks mashaAllah she is good, it would be good to have such lady as a wife. So its best that he gives his feelings halal form and gets married to her. It is allowed because thats the way Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala made nature of man. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala alone knows His hikmah but maybe this nature of man was needed as some times circumstances do come that they have to take a second wife. NO OFFENCE TO BROTHERS

Hopefully this time it makes sense

wassalam

While Polygamy itself is not wrong and has many benefits.  What about obeying the laws of the land?  I think that's pretty much the argument about Polygamy making Islam look bad.  Its not Polygamy in countries where its legal.  Its Polygamy in countries where it is not.

I really have no issue with polygamy in general.  However, while the law remains such.  If you live in an area where Polygamy is illegal, you need to understand that participating in the practice is breaking the law.

If a man truly wants/needs a second wife.  Perhaps he needs to look into two LEGAL ways of doing it.  First off is to challenge the law based on it unconstitutional nature.  Second, move to a country where it is legal.

The objection that was voiced on the other thread was more about breaking the law than polygamy itself.  When you become a US citizen, you pledge to follow the laws of the country.  You swear before God.  Do you get to ignore one oath because you feel the need to take a second wife? 

If you were born here, as a citizen you still have the same obligation to follow the laws.  You either change them or obey them.  If you don't, you must be prepared to face the consequences.  Its Civic Responsibility at that point, not religious choice.

For the religious choice, you must do your Civic Duty and challenge the law you see as unjust.  You don't just get to break it.

Angela,

I agree with you when you say, in your country polygamy is illegal, and practising it would mean breaking the law. Muslims have to obey the law of the land, there is no excuse for them. I am not trying to fish any here.

However, I do not understand how you can speak for the statement in the other thread. It was a blanket statement of intolerance against muslims ... If i see such blanket intolerance against muslims in non-muslim lands, the question that is raised in my mind is, are my fellow muslim brothers and sisters tolerant towards the nonmuslims who practice fornication and adultery? Are they tolerant towards those who practice homosexuality?

I dont know if someone invloved in these practices is breaking the law of your land, however I do know that this person is breaking a divine law. Therefore it is offensive if people there are actually breaking the divine law in their social behavior and no finger is pointed at them however, people have such strong repulsion (intolerance) at others who are only breaking the law of the land.

One is offending a country (a set of man made laws) and the other is offending Allah!  It all depends on who you have magnified in your heart more. I am first offended by someone who would offend The Creator and second by someone who may offend a man made law.

Yes, muslims who need to practice polygamy should move out of your country or they will be breaking a law. Agreed.

Please advice what you have to say about fornicators, adulterers and homosexuals? Muslims or non-muslims? I want to know from one of you, are these people involved in an illegal act or not? I cannot discuss this subject further till I know the exact legality of such social behaviors prevalent in your country. Would you want such people to leave your country because they are breaking a law, or what is the case about them?

Thank you.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi angela, The laws of the land should be followed as long as you are not compromising on the divine laws. And i dont think practising polygamy is an issue on which you should break the laws of your land. I think you are right that if some1 believes that because it is allowed by our Lord so state should not stand against it, they should make it known in a legal manner.

There are always loopholes in every legal system though. My friend's dad has two wives and they are both registered marriages. I am not sure about all the details but a case was filed that there is religious freedom in UK and islam allows polygamy so the second marriage is legal. I think they have some sort of clause which says that in case of seperation they wont be able to use laws of land but would have to refer to religious laws. All i know is that there are ways and it dont have to be illegal.

wassalam

UmmTaaha,

Actually, unlike some splinter sects of my own faith.  Islam does not teach polygamy as a requirement, only a permissible act if the proper terms and conditions can be met.

4:3 And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

You aren't treating them justly if you are putting them in a position to be prosecuted under secular law.

I believe in Polygyny.  I feel that when practiced properly, it can be a beautiful thing.  This means that all women involved should be willing and wanting to enter this kind of arrangment.  This means the man should have the financial income to support multiple families, because unless the wives want to live in the same home, each needs her own residence.  There needs to be a fundamental standard of care and love between all parties.

For example, if Polygyny were restored to practice (and only if) I would consider allowing my husband to take a specific woman as a second wife.  She and I are dear friends and she's never found anyone.  Now, because its forbidden by the law and thus also by my faith, that won't happen unless its changed.  I see where polygamy could benefit my family and this woman.  I am willing and open to sharing my loving husband.  But, above all those desires is the desire to uphold the law and not end up in jail, outcast by society or excommunicated. 

There is a very big difference in believing something is good and breaking the law.  I believe that certain taxes are unjust, but I would never risk jail by not paying them.  I believe that interest should be outlawed, but I would never risk my home or car by not paying the interest.  Many things are legal that should not be, and many things are illegal that should be legal.  This is the paradox in society.

But unless something is a religious requirement (which polygyny is not in Islam) there is no need to break the law.  Like Fatima's relative there are legal ways of dealing with it. 

In a way, the trend of non married and gay couples in this country are changing the laws and making it easier on the unregistered plural wives of men.  But, is that really a benefit you want to partake of?  I would rather a Muslim family challenge and change the law, thus continuing to encourage lawful marriage and cohabitation.

Its easier to challenge the immorality of fornication and adultery if you are fighting to preserve the legal marriage as a tenet of society.

Angela thank you for your input:

Angela wrote: In a way, the trend of non married and gay couples in this country are changing the laws and making it easier on the unregistered plural wives of men.  But, is that really a benefit you want to partake of?  I would rather a Muslim family challenge and change the law, thus continuing to encourage lawful marriage and cohabitation. Its easier to challenge the immorality of fornication and adultery if you are fighting to preserve the legal marriage as a tenet of society.

I know there are "Muslim personal laws"  which can be applied on muslims in certian areas. These laws can easily accomodate issues like marriage, divorce, child custody, inheritance etc. There are countries which have this system, and I hope muslims in the west think about it as well.

On a side note, I never said polygamy is a requirement in Islam. It is a permission only. However one shld understand that if something has been made permissible by the divine, it cannot be treated with a frown, disgust, intolerance etc  - which was how the post sounded - the original one to which i had posted my objection in this thread.

Polygamy is not always a need, and most men even in Islam maintain one wife only.

Polygamy is Islam is not obligatory. There are definite reasons why polygamy was permitted and the conditions that should be maintained in which a polygynous relationship can thrive to the benefit of the spouses involved.

The Quran states justice between the wives. This is material justice. Equal distribution of time and wealth and other resources. In broader terms, I would also include both having the similar legal status.

The Quran also exhorts in Surah Nisa, 4:3, Marry one or more, but if you fear that you wont be able to do justice, then only one. This is nearer to preventing you to do injustice.

The plurality of marriage is made Halal in Islam due to many reasons. It is primarily to prevent men from doing Haram. A man may be tempted towards another woman and in case his wife is accepting towards her and they wish to remain married (for kids, etc) he can marry this other woman instead of having a haram relationship again avoiding many problems of illiegal children.

There may be women in the society that have no prospects of marriage or the ratio of men is adverse. Being a second wife gives her respect and protection in the society. If she were single, she would have to take help from others and as scholars agree,taking help from nonmahram men, puts women at risk of exploitation.

In the west However, if we take a look at people who are in a polygamous relationship, its very distressing to see that that they taking something from Islam because it is Sunnah but the way of doing it is totally un-islamic.

I read a post on this forum, in which a lady has described how she met her husband on chat and then they got married (civil and not islamic wedding). the husband did not tell his wife about it and was sneaking out to meet her. To the extent that everyone including his son knew that this woman is his wife except the first wife.

To me as a muslim and any moral person anywhere in the world, the above kind of behaviour is unethical and unacceptable.  In blunt words, I would call it cheating on the first wife. The basic foundatuon of marriage is threatened by this behaviour.

UmmTaaha, you are speaking about the society, these stories are dime a dozen, all under the banner of islam,quran and sunnah. And this is what is giving the religion a bad name.

We cannot be so wishful as to seperate what we do from what Islam is.

We are all representatives of the Quran. What we need to root out is the un-islamic and unethical practices of muslims (while they fool themselves that they are following the Sunnah)

As everyone, I know of polygamous marriages in which the dignity of all the spouses and their children is fully maintained. This is the kind of marriage that reflects the true beauty of Islam and it is within everyones who wishes to reach. People take the way of deception and subterfuge because the reasons that want to marry are questionable.

Eg: My wife cannot have kids, ( so I want to be a half time dad to wahtever kids we have)

It is only in a small percentage of  polygynous marriages in the west that the rights of one the wives is not compromised.

The disgust and intolerance that you mention come from this background.

As an end note, in countries where gay marriage is banned, it is not allowed under any circumstance. The same goes for polygynous marriage, if it is not allowed, it simply isnt. To change a law (as the homosexuals have done), it needs a concerted effort and time.

NS

Thank you for your input, NS.

I agree with all of what you have said above. I did not have any clash with the above facts you have listed.

Najamsahar wrote: UmmTaaha, you are speaking about the society, these stories are dime a dozen, all under the banner of islam, quran and sunnah. And this is what is giving the religion a bad name. We cannot be so wishful as to seperate what we do from what Islam is.

It all depends on how we mention and discuss the problems of our society. Where denying the problems would be siding with falsehood, approaching  the sunnah itself with negetivity is not the best way of solving problems.

We may discuss with congineality, giving due recognition and respect to the sunnahs in Islam. Because sunnahs are not merely examples. And permissibilities from Allah are blessings.

Problems come to a dead end, when we go at two separate exteems.

The requirement for second marriage does not have to be a woman  not having a mahram, and her kids being orphans. These are merely good reasons, and a way to make things halal - to protect a woman's honor etc. However a man is allowed to marry even if he is attracted to her. (of course keeping all the conditions for second marriage).  

Another thing I have seen people arguing about is that a husband should be loving all his wives equally. This is not correct. He is not supposed to nor can he do this. Even the prophet(saw) was not obliged to do this.

Coming to the west, I dont think if a man sincerely approaches a scholar to find out what he must be doing, he will be adviced in favor of polygamy. I do not deny this, nor am I unaware of this.

Even in countries where polygamy is allowed, if one is unable to afford two homes financially, he should not give way to his desires in marriage. So much so, that Islam says, if a man does not have the means to marry even the first time, he should wait, and during those days, years ... he should fast.

It is easy to be intolerant towards someone who is breaking a law, but let us make sure this intolerance is not stemming from the need to prove our ownselves.  Muslims have come under a microscopic eye of everyone in the west, and so has Islam. However we do not have to go overboard pleasing the societies we are living in, to prove our sincerity or loyalty as citizens.  If we have our priorities straight, our concepts of Islam well grounded, there is literally no need to have attitudes against fellow muslims such as sending blanket statements. 

We were speaking of a society where literally haram actions have been given licenses.  How much energy will any non-muslim westerner spend in speaking against these, or calling to attention the civic duty of people involved?  However when it is about muslims, standards are different. We should not be naive enough to accept these double standards, nor should we be naive enough to join them to strengthen their voices.

There is a lot muslims in the west must be doing. First and foremost of that should be organizing themselves - not having 5+ different groups in one mosque. One should do dawah among the ummah, and UNITE the muslims on the foundations of Quran and Sunnah. This we cannot do if we are simply intolerant towards muslims. We need to be intolerant towards their wrong actions, and making efforts - no matter how small they are - rectifying the society of these blemishes.

It is taught in a hadith that a muslim should help his brother when he is doing good and help him when he is doing wrong. - the explainiantion of which is help the first brother by aiding him in doing good, and helping the second is to check him, and try to bring him to the straigh path.

UmmTaaha,

You said, We should not be naive enough to accept these double standards, nor should we be naive enough to join them to strengthen their voices.

Its not a double standard when its applied to all.  There are other religions that teach polygamy as a natural and moral act.  However, the law is the law.  It doesn't matter if your Mormon or Muslim.  The anti-polygamy laws were in place long before Muslims came to the US in force.  They were passed as part of the battle against my people. 

But, if a Muslim wants to live in the West then they must accept the law or work to change it.  If they disrespect the laws of the land and make no attempt to change it, then they simply don't have the right to be here.  Democracy is a full contact sport that requires participation.  You can't simply ignore the law and do what you want.

That is what the problem is with polygamists in this country.  They have no respect for the law and refuse to take legal channels to correct the law.  Why?  Because those that are unwilling to challenge the law are usually not in these relationships for moral purposes. 

In the end, if Muslim brother would rather have multiple wives and doesn't feel the need to challenge the laws that forbid it, then he needs to move to a country where its legal.

I said:

We were speaking of a society where literally haram actions have been given licenses.  How much energy will any non-muslim westerner spend in speaking against these, or calling to attention the civic duty of people involved? 

It is a double standard if you do speak against polygamy but not against the haram activities ie. the illegal sexual activities like homosexuality, adultary and fornication. 

Where is the law that would jail such kind of ppl, or deport them or exile them?  

But, UmmTaaha,

The US is a secular society with secular laws.  You call Illegal sexual activities of homosexuality, adultery and fornication because of your religion, but in the US, religion has nothing to do with it.  People have a right to believe what they want here.  Therefore, if you want to practice a specific ideal, you have to challenge the courts based on the idea that it restricts your belief. 

I certainly don't believe in homosexuality, adultery or fornication.  However, I stop dead at the idea of forcing my beliefs on others and imposing laws that draw stoning and death to sinners. 

This is a country of many faiths, you can complain about the haram practices being given license here.  But in the end, if that's how you feel, then don't live here.  I see you have Japan listed as your home country.  I could point out a few things about Japanese culture and I'm pretty sure that polygamy is illegal there.

A non-muslim westerner is going to argue on their beliefs.  In the US, there is a movement to ban all marriages that are not between one woman and one man. This would prevent homosexuals from marrying, but it would reinforce the 125 year old bans on plural marriage.  Fornication and adultery are personal sins and will be punished by the creator, but you cannot regulate morality based on religious law in a secular government. 

As for where is the law, in Texas there was a sodomy law that gave jail time, its been overturned based on personal freedom.  In Pennsylvania no more than 5 unmarried women can live together in a home because it becomes a brothel.  There are laws, but they aren't enforced because of personal choice and belief.  If you come here as an immigrant you are bound to our laws, end of argument.  If you don't agree with the laws, then don't come here, go somewhere else.  If you are born here, then you are bound to live the laws just the same, no different.  The only difference is one came here by choice and if he breaks the law, he can be sent home.  He or she broke their agreement to obey the law as part of their terms of citizenship.  The other faces jail time if they break the law.

If a Mormon or Muslim practices polygamy in this country, they understand that they are doing so against the law and must accept that there will be consequences if they are discovered and prosecuted.  They must understand that for all the illegal/spiritual wives and legally illegitimate children that there are no protections under the law.  The if the second wife needs assistance from the government, the US can garnish the mans wages in child support with no respect for his first wife and their situation.  If the husband dies, the first wife becomes sole inheritor with her children.  Lastly, all the children could suffer if the father is arrested, fined and jailed and the spouses as well.

So, yes, there are things that are permissible in this society that are ugly and wrong, but you cannot force your beliefs on the entire 300 million people, therefore, you either deal with it and teach your kids the correct way, or you leave.  But, if you break the law, even if your beliefs say its okay, then you become a criminal in society. 

For example, in the US, if a Shariah Court convicted an adulteress and sentenced her to death by stoning....they would all become murderers and be charged as such.  So, do you expect them to risk their families and communities by following that act?  Of course not.  So, why expect men to engage in an allowable but not required act that can only bring misery to the family under the law?

In the end, I can't say this enough....If Muslims or Mormons want to practice polygamy, they must FIRST challenge the law, then they can practice polygamy openly and the way it should be done, in love, not secrecy.

Angela wrote: If you come here as an immigrant you are bound to our laws, end of argument.  If you don't agree with the laws, then don't come here, go somewhere else.

Angela, I see an overstress on abiding by the laws in all your posts. This, despite the fact that nobody has suggested muslims in your country shld be breaking them. I don't really understand your concern to this extent.

My concern to begin with were two, both of which were to do with muslims treating their religion and fellow muslims.  If you thought my opener was a suggestion for muslim to break US laws, your were only presuming things.

Secondly I am presuming the second person pronoun "YOU" in your message is not for me, rather for a general audiance. Coz, if you were addressing me, and you have said it at least three times in this post and some more times in others, that muslims shld either leave US, or not go there - I do not plan to live in US for many reasons and they are all religious. So thank you for the caution, but I personally don't need any.

Angela wrote: If a Mormon or Muslim practices polygamy in this country, they understand that they are doing so against the law and must accept that there will be consequences if they are discovered and prosecuted.  They must understand that for all the illegal/spiritual wives and legally illegitimate children that there are no protections under the law.  The if the second wife needs assistance from the government, the US can garnish the mans wages in child support with no respect for his first wife and their situation.  If the husband dies, the first wife becomes sole inheritor with her children.  Lastly, all the children could suffer if the father is arrested, fined and jailed and the spouses as well. So, yes, there are things that are permissible in this society that are ugly and wrong, but you cannot force your beliefs on the entire 300 million people, therefore, you either deal with it and teach your kids the correct way, or you leave.  But, if you break the law, even if your beliefs say its okay, then you become a criminal in society.

If a muslim is a US citizen he/she is islamically bound by the her laws as long as those do not command this person to go against the commands of Allah. Polygamy is not a command of Allah, it is only a permissibility, thus muslims in the US must not circumvent the laws which enforce monogamy.   My argument with you was not this rather slightly different.

I do learn a few important things from your discussion.

The concern you bring regarding polygamy practised in US is very interesting. 

All what I see in your posts is DO NOT BREAK THE LAW. This is not at all a wrong attitude, however, when it comes to why one should not break them, the answer does not reflect a real responsibility.

The law is a law, you said that, and I understand, however, what is the law for? Is it for people not to break, ie to serve?

Or is it to protect people in various ways?

You see, my entire argument with you was an attitude towards the law and not the law itself. Please make a note of this.

Let us forget about the religion for a while and consider two hypothetical situations:

We have a Mr. A who is a muslim, US citizen, and a Mr. B. who is a non-muslim US citizen. They are both married, and have children.

Mr. A plans to get married a second time, and he does this secretly- he does not register his marrige, and understands the jeopardy he has put his second family into.

Mr. B on the other hand is interested in a lady, he does not marry her, rather only have a relationship with her.  Even they have children through this relationship.

Now, you tell me, if Mr. B dies, will the lady living with him or her kids get any share in his inheritance?

Will the lady living with Mr. B have a better status than the one with Mr. A, if either of them were to die? Keeping in regard that Mrs A. keeps her marriage a secret from the state.

The difference between Mr A  and Mr. B is that Mr A. has broken US state laws, while Mr. B has not. However the people involved in both these relationships have much to lose. So the consequences of the actions of both men hurt people. Neverthless, you would mind the actions of Mr. A, but not Mr. B (or so I read through your posts - correct me if I am wrong).

This was strange to obeserve in the first place - given the sincerity of your posts. Laws should not be there merely to be upheld, otherwise they become sekeletons governing the society, asking it to serve them. They (the laws) should also be able to prevent people from getting hurt.  However in this argument, we see that the people are  being considered as potentials to receive hurt only if they break a law - if in a similar situation, when there are no laws broken, the potentials of people getting hurt is only recognised as "personal choices". - and please note here, I have not weighed the two on the basis of religion, I have only compared the legal status of the two respective families.

Is this a suggestion to challenge the law? - I don't know - It is rather an observation of your attitudes before anything else. 

You said you do not believe in adultery, fornication and homosexuality. Is this a matter of personal belief only? For those who do believe in it cause people to suffer through their actions. When there are others suffering because of us, the matter does not remain that of personal belief only.  It becomes a social problem.

angela wrote: A non-muslim westerner is going to argue on their beliefs.

When a man enters into an extra marital affair, he jeopardizes his marriage and brings bad consequences on his family. Family is personal, but is also a social unit. How can one have only personal beliefs regarding a social unit?

This is the difference between your thinking and mine.