As salaam o alaikum Ladies

As you can all tell, I have " some issues on mind."

In my local mothers group, we have been discussing depression during child bearing years.We've ready many books on the subjects and have talked until " were blue in the face" {lol ) about it. I notice a break down in our discussions comes when the issue of religion and spirituality come into play.

I am aware that there are Muslims who believe that mental illness temporary or long term is a direct cause of the ego, the naffs, sin, God's punishment, and Jin or shayteen.  While I respect their beliefs, I don't agree, becuase research indicates that it literal defects of chemicals and functions in the brain, enviournment, life experiences, and physical health illnesses such as thyroid, diabetes, etc.

Sisters, as I reflect on our discussions about this I've come to these conclusions:

It is clear that many mothers are suffering from depression as a result of hormonal imbalances, diabetes, thyroid problems, poor nutrition, sleep deprivation, trauma, and chemical imbalances.

However I'm beginning to notice that our life styles excerbate or maybe even cause the decline in mental health. For example, many women complain about the lack of support from their husband regarding shared parenting, house work, and discpline. I'm aware that the Prophet pbh assisted in these areas, and I'm aware that scholars such as Imam Malik and Shafi'i were of the opinion that for Muslim women these were not fard or obligatory.

Many women complain about the isolation, and lack of emotional support. For those who have elected to stay home it is even worse.

It is mainly these issues that are causing so many women to fall into severe depression.

My husband is from West Africa, and alhamidlal, when women become mothers they have intact extended family systems that step in and assist. In other words these people practice the belief that it takes a village to raise a child. Dr. Christanne Northrup is of the opinion that the worst arrangement for mother and children is for her to always be the primary care taker as it leads to illness in the mother, child, and society.

I'm wondering if this stay at home mom do it all and be a superwoman is a Western phenomnan? In so called third world countries working, education, and emotional support aren't competing interest's.

Many women work with their children, grandmothers, aunts, sisters, cousins, and family friends assist one another from birth til death.

Of course that type of arrangement has it draw back as well.  I do know that in the U.S. extended family systems to used to be strong, but I believe the feminist looked at the extended family system as supporting male supremacy and keeping women trapped in family oriented positions for ever.

What I find so interesting about this is perception from feminists is that this doesn't seem to be the belief shared by other men and women overseas.

Of course you have your napolean complexes and freaks in every society but for the most part the women are versatile even if it's being a mother, farmer, religious activist and all.

Salaam ladies

Verily in the rememberance of allah do hearts find rest!

A very good  topic.

I think you did a good job on summarizing the various aspects of the whole issue.  As you said there are chemical / hormonal changes that happen to women. And when you combine this with the cultural values in our society which no doubt exacerbates the situation.

Women in the west are more isolated as you mentioned.  It must be very stressful to be alone with a colic baby for example that will not stop crying and there is no relief in sight. Never mind not resting yourself, but feeling powerless to help one�s child. In a more extended family you would get help in this regard.

Plus in other cultures you are not as much an �individual� as part of a collective group. The needs of all are taken into account. Then you have here, where before having a child, you are independent, do whatever you want, when you want. And once you have a child comes into the picture, that changes abruptly.

I don�t think we can really understand why some people are afflicted with mental illness or depression. We truly will never know Allah�s will.  It is another whole ballgame for people to be a bit sad now and then, manic depression, schizophrenia, etc are another level.  It is also what is exposed or talk about. These things happen in more traditional societies, I have a dear friend who has an aunt who is mentally ill in India. Just often many of these people are hidden away.

I highly recommend reading a book called Crazy by Pete Earley. It is about his son who was diagnosed with a mental illness around 20 years of age and the father�s delving into the whole issue.

Salaam Hayfa

You made such an important point about "individualism"- I personally believe that this mentality causes the failure of so many marriages, and the dysfunction within so many families. In a culture that preaches capitalism, or "Just Do It"- individualism is the internal computer chip that is being controlled by coporatations, and greed mongers.

It truly does take a village to raise a child.

And I also agree with you that mental illness is prevalent in traditional societies, however I haven't heard much about Major depression or anexity disorders or situation depression or Seasonal Affective disorders in these countries. I can under major illness such Bipolar disorder, Schizophrenia, Personality disorders.

It seems that our culture, and society are pushing women over the edge. As I think about Andrea Yates, and the Schizophrenic woman who threw her new born, toddler, and school aged child into a river, I often wonder if mental illness is our silent bubonic plague?

UmmAminata wrote: I'm wondering if this stay at home mom do it all and be a superwoman is a Western phenomnan?

I believe it is not the stay at home mum issue but thinking that you need to do all, be a superwoman is more like it.

I like the rest of your writing.

I believe it is not the stay at home mum issue but thinking that you need to do all, be a superwoman is more like it. - Angel

A mind is a terrible thing to waste hunh?

Sister let me clarify what I meant in what you quoted me on.

What I found during our mother's group research on this issue was that the stay at home mother who is always the primary care taker shouldering home and children while her husband pushes sixty hours a week seems to be limited to Europe and the North America's- and than, not all of Europe. In other nations it appears they still use the village system to care for mother and child. They still believe women need women.

And the superwoman issue.. boy oh boy..

You know what I find interesting sister?

In underdeveloped countries the women actually are doing it all. And proubably then some. Unlike us not all of them have an I-Pod, Sears washer and dryer, and a 2006 Mini Van.

My experience is most related to West Africa.

Many of I guess what we may call "working class" women are farming, mothering, cleaning, cooking, sewing all of the families clothes, and some are going to school on top of all this. But becuase there is a national consensus for that, women take care of other women, and the village system is effective.

For European and North American women we are missing the village system, and the sisterhood of women caring for women. I believe that is why there are so many mothers groups is becuase people are trying to form the modern equivalent of an agrian society again.

Salaam

Many of I guess what we may call "working class" women are farming, mothering, cleaning, cooking, sewing all of the families clothes, and some are going to school on top of all this. But becuase there is a national consensus for that, women take care of other women, and the village system is effective.

Yes, alot of women do it "all" in certain areas.. they farm, herd, run small businesses etc. I think why they do not have the smame issues is that it is overall, a less "fast-paced" lifestyle.  It would be interesting to do a cross-cultural study so to speak.

Often people in the west look at other cultures as "backwards" and such. But there is nothing about the positive aspects.

I saw a piece going to be on PBS called My Country My Country, an independent film by a woman who went to Iraq to see behind the scenes in Iraq. She said, the producer to show that women are not "push-overs." and argue etc with their husbands, families etc. There is a lot of steroetypes about people, especially about women in Moslem societies. It is expected to air tonight on PBS at 9pm. To see local listings: http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2006/mycountry/ - http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2006/mycountry/

Thank you Hayfa I will check out in'sha'Allah.

To be perfectly honest with you sister, I'd rather be in Senegal half the time. I guess it's different for me becuase my mother is deceased. And my younger sister is also mother living clear across the country.

I agree about our fast paced life. There is a wonderful book called The Price Of Motherhood. It's very informative, and unbiased. She approaches from a non traditional perspective not bashing men, motherhood, and our wombs but taking a hard look at everything in " the machine."

When I became Muslims years ago, I knew that push over image was clearly a lie, I met some tough Arab and Pakistani sisters that weren't playing at all. Some even served in the Army and marines in order to finance their education while raising children.

Hat's off to them  

salaam

ummaminata, i just had to mention that dr.northrup is awesome! 

i think post partum depression is due to many factors having to do your body recovering from childbirth, readjusting itself to its new nonpregnant state, breastfeeding, and all the hormones going. but i agree that lifestyle plays a huge role in the severity of it (however, i am sure that some women will experience severe ppd regardless).

my experience: after my first child was born i read every book i could get my hands on. my mom came to stay with me for a few days to help after my hospital stay. after that i was on my own for the most part. i was a newly SAHM and was adjusting to the isolation, i had set alot of expectations on myself as a mother and just focused primarily on my role as a mother. stress, extreme fatigue, anger and resentment was the result. slowly i started to ease up on myself and stop trying to be supermom....who was i trying for? i had all these preconceived ideas of what a mom was and in reality it is just an illusion. i come from a very large family...how did my mom do it? she had my grandmother living with her, my aunts living in the same apartment building or neighborhood, my uncles wifes also right there. she had a support system with other women...other caretakers to share the load, other women to have tea with or go shopping with easily without the babies, other women to cook for her or with her and other women who were going through the same thing she was. they were not just mothers 24/7 but still very much felt like women. not saying things were easy for her as they were hard times. no washing machine or dryer, no dishwasher is tough with so many kids. taking the older kids to school and feeding a family of 10 daily. keeping a house relatively clean. mashAllah my mom is a fantastic women.

anyway, i really think this topic is so important! thanks for starting it

I think in the US, especially in the suburban communities, women are somehow trapped in a competition trap. The working mother wants to prove that she is the best worker, the best manager, the best PTA mom, the best church (or mosque) mom and the sexiest woman alive.

The stay at home mom wants to be martha stewart too added to all the above.

This is unnatural and too much to do. if they have  small children,Women are exhausted and they get very little rest/sleep.

I feel that feminism for all its worth, has turned a card on the women themselves. I do not know for sure what the ideals of feminism were, but surely the pictures of worked out and washed out women are no models of gender equity.

Najamsahar

This is unnatural and too much to do. if they have  small children,Women are exhausted and they get very little rest/sleep. -Najamsahar

You know Dr. Northrup talks allot about the system of things.  She doesn't reffer to our system as patriarchical because she believes men are victims of this system too, but explains that every one is affected by this sick psychology.  In'sha'Allah I've loaned all of the books I own written by her to other Muslim mothers but when I get them back I want to look up what she called the system.

It is this sick psychology that causes people to think and function abnormally or naturally. I personally believe that consumerism, capitalism, coporate America, and immaturity contaminate the hearts and minds of so many women world wide.  It's a shame that our economic situation feels the need to compete, minimize or destroy families.  Why can't this be inclusive? Why do they have to be at odds?

I feel that feminism for all its worth, has turned a card on the women themselves. I do not know for sure what the ideals of feminism were, but surely the pictures of worked out and washed out women are no models of gender equity.-Najamsahar

 I whole heartedly agree with you there.  I read some where that that the movement was started by two Catholic nuns not just Betty Friedan.  Like the Civil Rights movement, I believe they were trying to abolish the seperate but equal standard that harmed the well being of women and children.  Many women were being hospitalized due to severe clinical depression because they couldn't tolerate the marriages and communities they lived in.  If you read feminist literature many mothers with small children committed suicide so women experiencing depression during child bear years is really not a new thing, it's just that the male dominated medical profession has now chosen to accept it as a valid problem.

What I found particularly disheartening is that Muslim women in Europe and the North America's have assimilated so much that they have abosorbed the pathologies of North American peoples. This isn't to say that Muslim countries don't have the same problems or challenges on the contrary they most likely do.  Instead of holding the male scholarship and leadership accountable for the preservation of Muslim motherhood, and Muslim women's rights, there is a certian disgust, and apathy I notice about many well educated Muslima toward sharia and their status.  Why people choose to focus on whack scholars acting like mad scientists is beyond me but never the less they do.

When I read the works of Imam Malik and Imam Shafi'i, women and mothers were clearly honored. Our only two obligations are to guard our husbands property and fufill intimacy aspects of marriage.  Yet some see the last obligation as marital rape, even though women are just as demanding regarding intimacy as men.  Muslim women aren't required to be a super woman so why in the heck trade that in for slavery?

I believe that men should particpate in parenting, child care, and house work, but Islam already has taken care of that? So the truth is, it comes down to the character, integrity, and maturity of the two people involved.  The best thing you can give your children is a good marriage. The truth is most Muslim and non Muslim women are in unhealthy marriages, that they chose to be get into and remain in.  Women never want to talk about this aspect because it's more comforterable to play the victim and blame the man. If your spouse isn't honoring sharia law or the marital agreement you made, that is a MAJOR character and integrity issue. They are violating sharia law by lying, defrauding, and dishonoring their agreements or oaths.  The Prophet pbh tolerated that crap from Ibn Ubay who committed treason at the Siege of Madina almost costing every one their life. He sws only tolerated so much of that from non-Muslim before pre-emptive self defense. The non-Muslim tribes had violated every single treaty and oath they ever took and had the guts to tell the Prophet sws that it was null in void from day one. That was the last straw for the Prophet sws.  Many Muslim spouses display that same sick characteristic of lying, defrauding, and negating their agreements.  So Muslim women but more so it is the children who end up suffering.  I realize no one is perfect but there it is totally unacceptable to lie, defraud, and not follow through on what you decide. Thats also a big maturity issue as well.  I understand certian situations but if you are in a Western Nation there is no excuse for why you are in a poor marriage you brought it on yourself.

I do believe Western women are waking up because many are choosing to sequence their life or stay home peroid.  But many professionally educated women end up suffering from depression, and end up divorced only to see they are back where they started from. Why? Everything for them has to be totally equal and perfect all of the time. I'm not talking about major stuff but little stuff.  I just finished reading a book about a White middle class family where the mom elected to stay home and quit her journalist job. She has a house keeper, a nanny, and a stable situation. Yet if her husband didn't dry one dish and she had to dry it, than that was opression.  If her husband slept in ten minutes than that was opression.  It's attitudes like that , that are self defeating and abusive.  It's a shame we are taught to hate woman hood, motherhood, and marriage.

Salaam

I do believe Western women are waking up because many are choosing to sequence their life or stay home peroid.  But many professionally educated women end up suffering from depression, and end up divorced only to see they are back where they started from. Why? Everything for them has to be totally equal and perfect all of the time. I'm not talking about major stuff but little stuff.  I just finished reading a book about a White middle class family where the mom elected to stay home and quit her journalist job. She has a house keeper, a nanny, and a stable situation. Yet if her husband didn't dry one dish and she had to dry it, than that was opression.  If her husband slept in ten minutes than that was opression.  It's attitudes like that , that are self defeating and abusive.  It's a shame we are taught to hate woman hood, motherhood, and marriage.

I agree tht people are waking up a bit, but due to economics they end up having no choice but to "do it all."

And that often the expectations about relationships are out of whack. True we would like it to be wonderful all the time. But marriages are work and they have their hard times.

I think hating is actually more in Europe. The rate of births in the US are still fairly high in comparision.  In some former Soviet states they are trying to pay women to have kids. Well what do you expect if you value everyone strictly as a "worker?"

Thr story you quoted is a lack of values that are instilled in a certain segment of the population. I teach at a college and it is amazing how many of these young people do not clean up after themselves. Then they enter marriage with these unrealistic expectations. Those this may be more in economic levels. People who have always had to work, will work.

I do believe there are many factors for these changes. WE sort of use the word "feminist" in a loose way. We do need to remember is that women could not vote, did not have a right to dovorce, had little access to education, were considered literally the property of the men in their lives. No one thinks this is acceptable. Plus they did not have the Quran or something like it to say that women are NOT second class citizens. Whereas there are "fringe" groups in Islam that hold archaic views of women, this was considered mainstream and acceptable in Europe and US. The church was not considered a refuge. So thus a rejection of Christianity has a higher moral authority.  I think there are many complex aspects to it.

 Plus they did not have the Quran or something like it to say that women are NOT second class citizens. Whereas there are "fringe" groups in Islam that hold archaic views of women, this was considered mainstream and acceptable in Europe and US. The church was not considered a refuge. So thus a rejection of Christianity has a higher moral authority. 

I'm so glad you joined this conversation! I never thought about the rejection of Christanity regarding this issue, but religion plays a critical role in womens status in all soceities.  In Dr. Northrup's book "Women's Body Women's Wisdom" I believe it may be in the menstruation chapter, but in there she quotes two female scholars who believe that that the way Catholicism potrays the Virgin Mary as is unnatural, unrealistic, and cultish. This same female scholar also says when she see's a nun, she looks at them as being a traitor to the female gender, and upholding standards that violate the sacredness to motherhood. At least in theory Islamic nations had given women rights, and allowed them to particpate in governmental affairs. How much of that theory was actually implemented remains to be seen.

I think there are many complex aspects to it.

Agreed!

Salaam

In Islam there are no pictures or depictions of God. When growing up you are taught, in Christianity, that God is the "Father" and Jesus is God. Therefor God is associated with being male. And therefore, men are closer to God and were created in "his image."

There are two main depictions of Women given in the traidtional Church: the Virgin Mary who was "pure" and then Mary Magelane who was a "prostitute" (Though I think like Khadijah she was Jesus's first follower). In some ways the naturalness of life is rejected..as equating natural hormonal interests as tolerated, but not embraced. In a sense the two extremes are depicted or focused on.

Islam is more about accepting the natural order or world we live in. And must be quite alright (of course done in a proper way) if Allah gave it to us.

Did you hear about Tom Cruise saying that women who are a bit dressed after birth should just exercise and eat right? It was funny, I listen to sports radio and the DJ there was like "I cannot stand Tom Cruise. What does he know. Giving birth a a huge t hing for the body to do. Never mind you are loosing several pounds of weight all at once, your hormones get all changed. My wife, had a bit of depression after the birth of our child. And she is a marathon runner."

A number of women called his show and said if he wasn't married they would marry him! lol

wallahi, Ummaminata, I have not read any of the books you mentioned, so I cannot say much. I will try and read them and see what dr Nothrop is all about.

My concern for muslimas today is that they are being handed out a version of Islam that is not the right one. We can blame the male leadership but how much. We are living in this century where most information can be had at the click of a button. I have observed these traits in muslim women that I find really disturbing.

-Many young and educated muslimas somehow find and follow those precepts of Islam that are contrary to womens interests and well being. For eg, I have had vehement discussions with women who will say that men/husbands have the status next to God (based on the Hadith). I do not disagree with this. However, we have enough information about the husbands rights and mens status etc from our male dominated societies.

We need to have an awareness about what clearly are womens rights and anyone who takes away these rights is nothing but an abuser.

Even if we were to step into any gender discussion on many of the forums online, and take an objective look at whats going, its striking that not only men but also women are talking about mens rights.

-Muslim women have failed to come into their own and have failed to come together as a sisterhood. The one single place that I felt this sisterhood was in a small town in Texas. MashaAllah the sisters are wonderful in supporting each other and their husbands and families have fallen in sync with them. To me the reason was that the women were very united eventhough they came from varied backgrounds. Women in my local mosque and some mosques I came across in Canda and NY divided up on the basis of every reason that could be found.

-There has been no substantial voice against domestic violence and abuse. I was was close to a victim of domestic violence and I found no help from ISNA or ICNA. ISNA has a website but I guess that this is it. There is no one to answer the phone on most of the extensions.  There are only two muslim shelters where the counsellors are extremely overbooked. My experience with ISNA has been dissappointing. they have high and lofty goals to try to propagate Islam and all that stuff, but there are many problems to be dealt within the muslim  homes that wont go away unless there is sustained action.

The churches have been very active in coming out to help battered muslimas and what our dear fellow muslims are doing really beats me.

There should be a specific program nationwide where womens issues are discussed at the Friday sermons. Which brings us to the issue of space in the mosques. Women do not have adequate space in the masjid, the space they are given is usually not of the same standard as that of the men. And the friday khutbahs need to be published on the masjids website so that everyone has access to it.

-Muslim women have a great capacity to feel happy by comparing Islam to other religions. Again, visit a few forums and see for yourself. I dont understand how talking about christianity or any other religion is going to help us!

-There is an pathetic lack of knowledge among  Asian women about their status ordained by God. For eg: most Indian pakistani women assume that the man is always in control and the duties of the wife are principally to "take care of the husband" from pressing his clothes to having perfect meals ready even when she is sick.

Also there is a very subtle abuse going on in a high percentage of these families. My guess is that about 80% of the women experience abuse at the hands of their husbands. To me any or all of the following constitute abuse (the standard is islamic not the western definition of abuse)

Maybe this surprises many but this is so commonplace in even families that have been in the US for 2 generations and up, are very islamic in that they pray and go to masjid.

-restricting her from activities based on the arguments such as "you wont have enough time to spend with me if you do such and such"

-restricting her from pursuing higher studies, getting a drivers license,  getting her a car so that she can move about by herself

-Not providing some amount of money that she can spend freely of her own will.

-Expecting an unusual amount of housework which is unnecessary. Not helping wiht household chores when she has extra demands of prayer esp during ramadhan.

-Expecting the wife to be very particular in matters of religion like wearing an abaya and not speaking to mahrams. The husbands of many of these women  are without beards and they interact freely with women.

-Routinely women are not given anything in inheritance. The reasoning is that the parents spent money on them for the wedding and thats how they equate it.

The three results of this disease within our communities is already visible and all of them hurt.

1)Many women are leaving Islam. We talk about women who enter Islam but the numbers of women who are leaving are staggering. The reasons are disillusionment and logically they refuse to accept that God could be unfair to women (the potrayal by most of the scholars of women is unfair)

2)We also have another breed of muslim women who have picked out from Islam what they wanted, modified it and started a religion named Islam too but in that they have what they did not get from mainstream Islam.

3) Thousands of women are suffering in the name of Islam. They suffer in silence and they cry out. No one listens to them. A muslim woman can bring out the Quran, Hadith, anything and everything, but nobody's listening to your one little voice sista!

As an end note I hope and pray that muslim women come together and find their strenght.

And please do not reply to this post with "but my husband is so sweet" husband worshippers can start another thread.

Najamsahar

najamsahar wrote: wallahi, Ummaminata, I have not read any of the books you mentioned, so I cannot say much. I will try and read them and see what dr Nothrop is all about. My concern for muslimas today is that they are being handed out a version of Islam that is not the right one. We can blame the male leadership but how much. We are living in this century where most information can be had at the click of a button. I have observed these traits in muslim women that I find really disturbing. -Many young and educated muslimas somehow find and follow those precepts of Islam that are contrary to womens interests and well being. For eg, I have had vehement discussions with women who will say that men/husbands have the status next to God (based on the Hadith). I do not disagree with this. However, we have enough information about the husbands rights and mens status etc from our male dominated societies. We need to have an awareness about what clearly are womens rights and anyone who takes away these rights is nothing but an abuser. Even if we were to step into any gender discussion on many of the forums online, and take an objective look at whats going, its striking that not only men but also women are talking about mens rights. -Muslim women have failed to come into their own and have failed to come together as a sisterhood. The one single place that I felt this sisterhood was in a small town in Texas. MashaAllah the sisters are wonderful in supporting each other and their husbands and families have fallen in sync with them. To me the reason was that the women were very united eventhough they came from varied backgrounds. Women in my local mosque and some mosques I came across in Canda and NY divided up on the basis of every reason that could be found. -There has been no substantial voice against domestic violence and abuse. I was was close to a victim of domestic violence and I found no help from ISNA or ICNA. ISNA has a website but I guess that this is it. There is no one to answer the phone on most of the extensions.  There are only two muslim shelters where the counsellors are extremely overbooked. My experience with ISNA has been dissappointing. they have high and lofty goals to try to propagate Islam and all that stuff, but there are many problems to be dealt within the muslim  homes that wont go away unless there is sustained action. The churches have been very active in coming out to help battered muslimas and what our dear fellow muslims are doing really beats me. There should be a specific program nationwide where womens issues are discussed at the Friday sermons. Which brings us to the issue of space in the mosques. Women do not have adequate space in the masjid, the space they are given is usually not of the same standard as that of the men. And the friday khutbahs need to be published on the masjids website so that everyone has access to it. -Muslim women have a great capacity to feel happy by comparing Islam to other religions. Again, visit a few forums and see for yourself. I dont understand how talking about christianity or any other religion is going to help us! -There is an pathetic lack of knowledge among  Asian women about their status ordained by God. For eg: most Indian pakistani women assume that the man is always in control and the duties of the wife are principally to "take care of the husband" from pressing his clothes to having perfect meals ready even when she is sick. Also there is a very subtle abuse going on in a high percentage of these families. My guess is that about 80% of the women experience abuse at the hands of their husbands. To me any or all of the following constitute abuse (the standard is islamic not the western definition of abuse) Maybe this surprises many but this is so commonplace in even families that have been in the US for 2 generations and up, are very islamic in that they pray and go to masjid. -restricting her from activities based on the arguments such as "you wont have enough time to spend with me if you do such and such" -restricting her from pursuing higher studies, getting a drivers license,  getting her a car so that she can move about by herself -Not providing some amount of money that she can spend freely of her own will. -Expecting an unusual amount of housework which is unnecessary. Not helping wiht household chores when she has extra demands of prayer esp during ramadhan. -Expecting the wife to be very particular in matters of religion like wearing an abaya and not speaking to mahrams. The husbands of many of these women  are without beards and they interact freely with women. -Routinely women are not given anything in inheritance. The reasoning is that the parents spent money on them for the wedding and thats how they equate it. The three results of this disease within our communities is already visible and all of them hurt. 1)Many women are leaving Islam. We talk about women who enter Islam but the numbers of women who are leaving are staggering. The reasons are disillusionment and logically they refuse to accept that God could be unfair to women (the potrayal by most of the scholars of women is unfair) 2)We also have another breed of muslim women who have picked out from Islam what they wanted, modified it and started a religion named Islam too but in that they have what they did not get from mainstream Islam. 3) Thousands of women are suffering in the name of Islam. They suffer in silence and they cry out. No one listens to them. A muslim woman can bring out the Quran, Hadith, anything and everything, but nobody's listening to your one little voice sista! As an end note I hope and pray that muslim women come together and find their strenght. And please do not reply to this post with "but my husband is so sweet" husband worshippers can start another thread. Najamsahar

Assalamu Alaikum,

najamsahar:

"Many women are leaving Islam. We talk about women who enter Islam but the numbers of women who are leaving are staggering. The reasons are disillusionment and logically they refuse to accept that God could be unfair to women."

Please quote with references. My wife and I have yet to find any woman that has left Islam. But, that doesn't mean that women may not be leaving Islam.

"(the potrayal by most of the scholars of women is unfair)"

Please tell those scholars with examples.

"We also have another breed of muslim women who have picked out from Islam what they wanted, modified it and started a religion named Islam too but in that they have what they did not get from mainstream Islam."

Please elaborate.

What about babies?, their family bear depressions?...

-----

Mother: Eat it!,Eat it!!!

Baby:what the hell is this?, very bad?,if i could speak...

------

Mother: Piss Piss!!!

Baby: what?,where i am ?,why i am hanged on the toilet?,if i could speak...

-----

35 centigrate degrees in the city,

Mother: Wear it,wear it!!

Baby:does she my mother?,if i could speak...

Peacemaker,

W'salam

Four women that I know on a personal basis, thus being very sure of what I am saying apostasted. I dont know what you mean by references, do you want their names?

I live in Saudi Arabia. Just few months ago a Phillipino lady rang the doorbell, obviously she had come to the wrong place. She said she was working at the local grocery store and had come to drop off someones goods.  I started speaking to her as I was on the lookout for a maid. She said she would come by to help with the chores and some instinct made me ask "are you a muslim" and she replied "I was, but now I am a christian" The picture of her saying those words is still fresh in my mind, it gave me a disgusting feeling. And I asked her why. She replied "Islam is good, but it is more important to have a good heart"....whatever that means.

In India, it is becoming very common to hear these stories especially from educated young muslimas. I could tell you 4 in India and one in the heartland of Islam. This is a growing phenomenon and its just that nobody talks about it. Havent you heard about the famous seminar in Mumbai where 50 odd women andconverted to christianity in an hours time, Bridges TV had carried a report on this too, this was in  feb or march 2005.

The point about the scholars. Well, the sheikh in Australia to start with who made the comment about non-hijabi women. Have you not heard innmuerable things about women being impure, deficient, weak, her testimony being equal to half of the mans? There has been no  effort to publisize the priviliges that Islam has given women. How many muslims know that household chores are not the womens responsibility, that the wife has obligations towards her family, that daughters have a particular share in the inheritance?

"We also have another breed of muslim women who have picked out from Islam what they wanted, modified it and started a religion named Islam too but in that they have what they did not get from mainstream Islam."

Have you heard about Amina Wadood and Asra Nomani? What they stand for?

Najamsahar

Assalamu Alaikum,

najamsahar:

"Four women that I know on a personal basis, thus being very sure of what I am saying apostasted. I dont know what you mean by references, do you want their names?"

By references I meant links to reliable sources such as web site links where I could study further on the matter. Well, I will believe what you say, but the numbers by any measures are nowhere even close to the numbers related to reverts, those coming into Islam. By that I don�t mean that we can overlook those leaving Islam.

"We also have another breed of muslim women who have picked out from Islam what they wanted, modified it and started a religion named Islam too but in that they have what they did not get from mainstream Islam."

There are many sects. And everyone will be held accountable for his/her deeds on the day of judgement. Islam gave rights to women 1400 years back that no system on Earth could ever match that. Just see the quote, "Heaven lies under mother�s feet". I am content with my faith that I would not compromise at any cost, insha Allah.

I understand your frustration. But, there should be proper way to change the status quo. The gradual transformation is the best way out. Sudden changes don�t normally have positive outcomes. And yes, we all are responsible to bring out change, that what each of us could do to achieve necessary revival in the ummah. 

If I made any mistake, I apologize for that.

Allah knows best.

Peace

I'm into a bit of public speaking, and enjoy reading speech's and lectures by Civil Rights activist. In particular Dr. Martin Luther King, who was against violence, said that in order for the African American to attain justice is that they had to go to their opressors and reason with them patiently, positively, and logically. If they were denied justice, than they had to examine themselves and correct what ever was wrong, yet if they corrected it, and still were denied justice, than people had to stand up and protest some way some how and not stop until it's achieved. Like the African American can't change his skin color and features ( accept Micheal Jackson) The Muslim woman can't change her gender ( Accept people undergoing sex changes). Therefore, Muslim women are only left to disobey the structures that are opressive; Muslim women are only left to protest and challenge; Muslim women are only left with each other, and their ability to march for their God Given rights - literaly, unfortunately because people are so concerned about your skin color, marital status, hair type, educational background, what type of car you have, and how many yards of land you own- it aint gonna happen. The truth that the orthodox, conservative, progressive, liberal, and secular Muslim don't want to hear is that, if you don't build a community, sisterhood, on this deen- uncorrupted, you will be just like the other movements, revolutions, and radicals who come and go, and are at best glorified by their supporters and recently written on history books.

Honestly people are all over the map! It is almost too much to take in at times.

I met Asra Nomani, well went to a talk about her book. Whereas I do not agree with her completely, she is just trying to change certain things, like not allowing women into her mosque or having adequate prayer space for women. She is just reacting to her surroundings... don't we all?

Some people become more "hard-line" in repsonse to US foregn policy or western culture. Others' reject the complete rigidity of others..

As we are shown. .we should all seek balance...

Peace

What about babies?, their family bear depressions?...

Brother Suleyman you must be a young man...

Post Partum Depression is no joke.  Have ya heard of Andrea Yates? And others who have committed infanctide? Suicide?

The mother is the child's primary care taker, if the mother is not being cared for, the baby isn't going to be cared for. The better the condition that the mother is in, the more able she is able to care for her baby.

Babies and children in general become depressed because their parents are depressed or are exhibiting some type of nuerosis.  Babies automatically want to bond with their mother. They know her smell, and voice before they are even born.

If men like you are so concerned about the welfare of children, hold your leadership and fellow brothers accountable to a higher standard of behaviour, and human functioning. When men stop putting women in bad situations and women stop allowing men to put them in bad situations than the possibility for a family to form can take place. Intelligent men understand that shared parenting, shared domestic work,  respect and love, as well the desire to see their wife and mother of their own children healthy and happy is crucial to the well being for the family and directly affects the society.  Once that child enters the picture it's not all about him any more, the righteous and mature thing to do would be to step up to the plate and act like a man instead of toddler throwing temper tantrums, and manipulating to get one's way.  Requiring that your wife and children be subordinate to your authority and fulfill your happiness to the detriment of their basic human needs is the slow killing of the mind, the body, and the soul.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Sorry for jumping into the discussion this late, post martum depression is for sure real and no one is doubting its authenticity. These days no one really can cos a simple head scan will tell the abnormal hormonal and neurotransmitter behaviour. But saying that is it not true that start of this abnormal behaviour of your brain cells gets started with an individual feeling low, sad about life, annoyed with circumstances and taking every little thing as a big blow? Yes there are things like epilepsy and schizopherenia which are caused by abnormal behaviour of neurotransmitters and those are some what genetics and can not be controlled by the individuals. But mostly conditions which are forms of depression are caused by oversensitive behaviour of the individual.

I have seen mother of triplet happy as anything even though she was rushed off her feet and then mother of a baby having post martum depression even though she had her sister and her mother in-law to help her out. This second person is my cousin and later on she told us that she felt screaming as soon as the baby started crying and she felt like she does not get time for herself. Everyone and everything is about the baby now and thats how it all started.

I think this might be a reason why some people would say that a strong faith in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala stops you falling into depression. But i do think that mothers do go through alot before and after the birth of thier kids. Thats why jannah is underneath the feet of our mother and they have three times more right than our fathers.

Now about people going to other religions because islam is hard on muslimaat. Just take an example of a person who is born with one good eye or one good leg or who has to spend his/her life depending on others. What about those people, has Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala being unfair to those people?(naudhubillah). No Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has given each person a specific criteria, you have to fulfill that to get His pleasure. No one is going to be judged on comparison, you are answerable for your own deeds and conditions. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has created men and women differently, they have different responsibilities. Now a father is responsible for feeding his family but Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has put jannah underneath the feet of mother and gave her three times more right than father. So are men suppose to say that its unfair?

One's wrongdoing and bad action does not justify the bad done by the second person. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has put an instinct in every1 that if you give yourself a fair chance and make not this 'Me' too important for yourself, you do see the bigger picture. You do realize the rights given to each and responsibilities and how they suit best. A fair person would never put the blame of people on the religion of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

wassalam

UmmAminata wrote: Please quote with references. My wife and I have yet to find any woman that has left Islam. But, that doesn't mean that women may not be leaving Islam. - PeaceMaker For information about the Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation, send email to [email protected]. You can also reach us by mail at the following address: Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation P.O. Box 11049 Truckee CA. 96162 Tel: (530) 582 4197 Fax: (530) 582 0156 "We also have another breed of muslim women who have picked out from Islam what they wanted, modified it and started a religion named Islam too but in that they have what they did not get from mainstream Islam." Please elaborate. I believe the sister is talking about people who " throw the baby out with the bath water."  When people start dismissing tawheed, salat, sawm, hajj, zakkat, modesty, heterosexuallity, marriage, and the Angel Gabriel Hadith, that get's scary brother. On whose authority are doing so? Did Allah give them permission to speak for him?

Assalamu Alaikum,

I wanted links from reliable sources, not from anti-Islam sources. Such links are not allowed here. I had to delete those links.

Jazak Allah Khair.

Peace

[/QUOTE]

Assalamu Alaikum,

I wanted links from reliable sources, not from anti-Islam sources. Such links are not allowed here. I had to delete those links.

Jazak Allah Khair.

Peace

[/QUOTE]

Peace Maker you asked for information about people apostating from Islam.  The books that I named are not links so why were they deleted? Those books are written by former Muslims? The way that you deleted it makes it look like no one could respond your challenged that you and your wife haven't seen anyone apostate.

I have seen many women apostate especially educated African American sisters.

I know one woman in particular who apostated and than became a conservative Jew!

My point was not to support anti-Islamic sentiments or products but to respond to your question, to make you aware, that the apostation is so bad, that there are books written by scholars on the subject.  Asking that the source be from a Muslim, makes your position appear to be biased and weak.

I really feel that post being deleted was done in poor taste.

UmmAminata wrote:

Assalamu Alaikum,

I wanted links from reliable sources, not from anti-Islam sources. Such links are not allowed here. I had to delete those links.

Jazak Allah Khair.

Peace

[/QUOTE]

Peace Maker you asked for information about people apostating from Islam.  The books that I named are not links so why were they deleted? Those books are written by former Muslims? The way that you deleted it makes it look like no one could respond your challenged that you and your wife haven't seen anyone apostate.

I have seen many women apostate especially educated African American sisters.

I know one woman in particular who apostated and than became a conservative Jew!

My point was not to support anti-Islamic sentiments or products but to respond to your question, to make you aware, that the apostation is so bad, that there are books written by scholars on the subject.  Asking that the source be from a Muslim, makes your position appear to be biased and weak.

I really feel that post being deleted was done in poor taste.

[/QUOTE]

UmmAminata:

Please read my post to najamsahar. And comply with guidelines. You are not allowed to quote the links of anti-Islam web sites. You are also not allowed to quote the work/book of Islam bashers here. Period.

Please read the guidelines so that you may stick to it.

 These days no one really can cos a simple head scan will tell the abnormal hormonal and neurotransmitter behaviour. But saying that is it not true that start of this abnormal behaviour of your brain cells gets started with an individual feeling low, sad about life, annoyed with circumstances and taking every little thing as a big blow? Yes there are things like epilepsy and schizopherenia which are caused by abnormal behaviour of neurotransmitters and those are some what genetics and can not be controlled by the individuals. But mostly conditions which are forms of depression are caused by oversensitive behaviour of the individual. - Fatima

I respectfully disagree with you position sister.  Modern research doesn't support this.  Brain scans can identify more than schizophrenia, they can also idnetify anexity disorders, bi-polar disoder, and depression. Also, it is not the individual that causes bi-polar disorder, and other major mental illness.  For moderate to mild depression, the enviournment triggers physilogical responses which throw the hormones and chemicals off balance primarily in women. The hormones and the neurotransmitters are not to far apart and are right by the hypothalmus. Which is why women are more prone to depression than men. The DSM-V111, American Pediatric Assocation, That National Institute Of Mental Health, and National Post-Partum Depression Alliance have issued statements based on research that Post Partum depression is caused by hormonal imbalances, which in turn disrupt the neurotransmitters which in turn cause signals to clash or miss each other resulting in a pluthura of mental disorders.  Post Partum Psychosis is believed to be a form of Bi-Polar disease or Bi-Polar diease as studies show women who experience Post Partum Pyschosis later develop Bi-Polar disorder. The reason being that it is developed around child bearing years is because of the many hormonal and enviournmental changes taking place.

I do believe that abusive experiences, poor choices, isolation, negative thinking patterns, and low self esteem can agitate these dieases.

For eg, I have had vehement discussions with women who will say that men/husbands have the status next to God (based on the Hadith). I do not disagree with this.

I do disagree with this.  I vehemently reject any hadith, saying of scholar, or fatwa that encourages shirk Akbar.

The Qur'an is clear that there is nothing never will be nothing that is comparable or co-equal to Allah.

Anything that says otherwise is not from the Prophet pbh, this is my belief.

Edit: Your font size is offensive. Please comply with guidelines.  

Assalamu Alaikum,

"My wife and I have yet to find any woman that has left Islam. But, that doesn't mean that women may not be leaving Islam."

I meant that we have not met in person any woman who has left Islam. At the same time, it didn't mean that women may not be leaving Islam. My second post addressed to najamsahar could further clarify what I meant.

Anti-Islam web sites are not the proper source to learn about people who are leaving Islam because they often misrepresent the facts. They falsely make it look like the whole world is leaving Islam. By the grace of Allah, that is not the case.

Yes, there is no denial that problem exists, but there should be proper way to handle it. Anti-Islam bashers can't give us solutions, they only will make it worse.

May Allah guide us all.

Peace

UmmAminata wrote: For eg, I have had vehement discussions with women who will say that men/husbands have the status next to God (based on the Hadith). I do not disagree with this.   I do disagree with this.  I vehemently reject any hadith, saying of scholar, or fatwa that encourages shirk Akbar. The Qur'an is clear that there is nothing never will be nothing that is comparable or co-equal to Allah. Anything that says otherwise is not from the Prophet pbh, this is my belief. Edit: Your font size is offensive. Please comply with guidelines.

What is that hadith by the way so that we may see what it says?

Peace Maker

I have read your post regarding the rules and will abide by them.  I honestly did not think the books by Ibn Waraqa were Islam bashing books. The websites you have a good point about, but the books are  not people ranting and raving, brother the majority of his books are quoting scripture, classical references, and written in conjunction with other scholars.

I do believe the Anti-Islam bashers can help us.  I recall a bible verse that says " keep your enemies closer than your friends."  Well, if Muslims are sincere about researching the reasons for apostation, and are sincere about wanting to reverse this, they are going to half to get their hands dirty, and play in the mud.  You can do anything about what you wont acknowledge? Their arguements, positions, and feelings are not invaluable or worthless, they are still Allah's slaves no matter how much they reject Allah, it is to him they will return, just like you and I.

Salaam

Peace Maker

The reason I'm choosing bold and font size 5 is so that I can see better.

And I'm not the one who mentioned the hadith, please ask the person to search for.

You know, I thought I had found a balanced online forum for Muslims.. I'm going to unsubscribe to this community.

Hafya and Najasahar I enjoyed our discussions.

Salaam o alaikum wahrahmatullah

UmmAminata wrote:   Peace Maker I have read your post regarding the rules and will abide by them.  I honestly did not think the books by Ibn Waraqa were Islam bashing books. The websites you have a good point about, but the books are  not people ranting and raving, brother the majority of his books are quoting scripture, classical references, and written in conjunction with other scholars. I do believe the Anti-Islam bashers can help us.  I recall a bible verse that says " keep your enemies closer than your friends."  Well, if Muslims are sincere about researching the reasons for apostation, and are sincere about wanting to reverse this, they are going to half to get their hands dirty, and play in the mud.  You can do anything about what you wont acknowledge? Their arguements, positions, and feelings are not invaluable or worthless, they are still Allah's slaves no matter how much they reject Allah, it is to him they will return, just like you and I. Salaam

That is your opinion, and I respect that.

But, works of the likes of Ibn Waraq has no place here. Period.

We don't have a section titled, "Why I am not a Muslim." And I agree with that. There is no point to think along those lines.

What is that hadith by the way so that we may see what it says?

Peacemaker, the one that says that if anyone were worthy of sajdah apart from Allah SWT, then it would be the husband. Sorry I dont have the vol and index numbers. If you can look it up, great. If not, I will find it for you.

Najamsahar

UmmAminata wrote:   I believe it is not the stay at home mum issue but thinking that you need to do all, be a superwoman is more like it. - Angel A mind is a terrible thing to waste hunh? Sister let me clarify what I meant in what you quoted me on. What I found during our mother's group research on this issue was that the stay at home mother who is always the primary care taker shouldering home and children while her husband pushes sixty hours a week seems to be limited to Europe and the North America's- and than, not all of Europe. In other nations it appears they still use the village system to care for mother and child. They still believe women need women. And the superwoman issue.. boy oh boy.. You know what I find interesting sister? In underdeveloped countries the women actually are doing it all. And proubably then some. Unlike us not all of them have an I-Pod, Sears washer and dryer, and a 2006 Mini Van. My experience is most related to West Africa. Many of I guess what we may call "working class" women are farming, mothering, cleaning, cooking, sewing all of the families clothes, and some are going to school on top of all this. But becuase there is a national consensus for that, women take care of other women, and the village system is effective. For European and North American women we are missing the village system, and the sisterhood of women caring for women. I believe that is why there are so many mothers groups is becuase people are trying to form the modern equivalent of an agrian society again. Salaam

Hi UmmAminata, just acknowledging your post, i don't disagree with it. It's intereting what you said about mothers groups, hadn't thought about that before.

UmmAminata wrote:  If you read feminist literature many mothers with small children committed suicide so women experiencing depression during child bear years is really not a new thing, it's just that the male dominated medical profession has now chosen to accept it as a valid problem.

yes, i can agree, some things are opening up even PMS was regarded as lunacy and the woman sent to an asylum.

peacemaker wrote: Assalamu Alaikum, najamsahar: "Four women that I know on a personal basis, thus being very sure of what I am saying apostasted. I dont know what you mean by references, do you want their names?" By references I meant links to reliable sources such as web site links where I could study further on the matter.

Peacemaker, I read the other posts where you kept on wanting sources but not every source is on the internet  Please don't come down hard on people if they provide sources outside the internet and/or ones you prefer not to be posted on the forum. You ask you get   

Some people cannot read small font.. they do have visual impairments.. nothing wrong with that..

Peacemaker:

First you were skeptical that there is a phenomenon of apostasy in this era. Reason: your wife and you didn�t know anyone who had done that.

Second, you ask for references. When you are given personal references, you want links.

Third, when you are given links, you don�t think that they are reliable. You delete the links.

Fourth, you undermine the issue by really funny reasons, �numbers of women entering Islam are more� and �that woman was not thinking right�

I attribute the problem to muslims of today and not Islam. This is where I disagree with you most. Islam as practiced today in regards to treatment of women is in very questionable and no one is willing to acknowledge it.

We can talk about what happened 1400 years ago, and how the Quran and Sunnah has elevated women but how does that help the women whose rights are being taken away under the shadow of Islam?

I do not know what you were expecting, a ticker tape on Islamicity or ISNA website showing the apostates? Maybe you know the punishment for apostasty in Islam ? The rationale behind this is that the apostates don�t spread any fitnah among the righteous.

If anyone likes to have and keep a certain view of the religion and issues that are plaguing it, they are free to do so. However, can these views influence someone who has experienced a different picture of Islam? Can opinions take the place of experience, I don�t think so.

I have far more experience (unfortunately) firsthand of many issues that I have mentioned in my posts. Your explanations come across as amusing if not ridiculous.

Lastly, I have neither read nor followed any maulvis. I have lived in four countries till now and have closely observed muslim societies in these countries, including Canada.

 Like you I have followed the scholars you have mentioned. My issue is with the scholars you mentioned. Let me elaborate ( your favorite word)

Dr Zakir Naik : His focus is dawah to non muslims. Through his talks, he mainly dispels myths about women in Islam, his pet topics are polygyny, purdah, right of the women to work and so on . But I do not know of any effort he has made to address any of the issues that I mentioned in my first post. If you have, please elaborate.

Dr Jamal Badawi: He has written a book named �gender equity in Islam�, it is one of the thinnest book I have come across. He does talk about how islam has elevated the status of women etc.

Hamza Yusuf: He is the one scholar that has strongly put forward that 3 of the 4 madhabs believe that domestic chores are not the responsibility of women.

I am not aware of the works of Imam Shakir, will look up the next time I am in the States inshaAllah.

But what the scholars say is nothing new. Islam in not flexible and there is no room for doubt. So whether you read the Hadith books, tafsirs or you listen to the scholars, Alhamdulillah there is no controversy.

Again, this is not helping those who are in need. How many of the muslims actually read up and reflect? Out of the ones that do, most are those who are oppressed. The oppressors rarely read and reflect. And where do these scholars stand in way of making social progress? I have to go back to my original post where I said that there has to be a sustained effort from EVERY side, ISNA, scholars, MYNA, MSA�, local masjids. There should be community efforts and efforts at the family level. Anything short of this will simply not suffice.

Najamsahar

Najamsaha...go girl

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Sis Ummaminata, I wrote, post martum depression is for sure real and no one is doubting its authenticity. These days no one really can, cos a simple head scan will tell the abnormal hormonal and neurotransmitter behaviour. What i meant to say was as you explained that these days a simple depression could also be noted via a scan. It just my english is so poorly muddled up  (see again) that some times needs explaining .

Sister najamsahar i do understand what you trying to say but how does it justify a person's apostasy. Asia, one of the most rightous women was wife of firawn, that dint change things for her, faith is seed of heart sis. Those scholars do thier utmost to explain the rulings of islam, they cant force it upon people, can they? Sister it is very easy to blame others of not having a proper islamic behaviour and forget about our own. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in Holy Quran about people that why do they say what they dont do. Every muslim has to look at themselves to start with. Is our behaviour in the limits set by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala? Do we treat other muslims as we want to be treated ourselves or do we put them down on every available chance? Do we think our views and way of thinking and our efforts are higher than others or do we give considerations to others? What have i ever done to spread the truth of our beautifull deen and did i do it in the right way or blasted fellow muslim in the process?

There is a long way to go sis, for all of us. I do agree that every body needs to struggle to bring back the true religion in our lives but with the humility and sincerity towards Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

Wassalam

Angel wrote: peacemaker wrote: Assalamu Alaikum, najamsahar: "Four women that I know on a personal basis, thus being very sure of what I am saying apostasted. I dont know what you mean by references, do you want their names?" By references I meant links to reliable sources such as web site links where I could study further on the matter. Peacemaker, I read the other posts where you kept on wanting sources but not every source is on the internet  Please don't come down hard on people if they provide sources outside the internet and/or ones you prefer not to be posted on the forum. You ask you get

Angel:

You are a very senior user here. You have many good posts, but there is problem that I would like to describe to you once again that has existed since rami's period as far as I could see. Maybe you consider that the problem is not as serious to worry about. But, that is your opinion. 

Whenever, any moderator makes an attempt to enforce guidelines or busy with handling those who consider themselves cyber missionaries, please stay away from those threads.

This is the last time I am telling you this.

Fatima,

Apostasy is not justified in any circumstance, I have tried to express my concern and disgust at what is happening but if you will point out if there is any justification of apostasty in my post, I will edit the parts. 

The scholars are explaining but with all due respect I dont think this effort can be counted as "utmost". Let me ask you a question, In the past year, How many khutbahs have you heard that dealt with womens inheritance, and womens rights about things like domestic violence?

Like I said my experiences are different and I speak from my experience.

Najamsahar

Peacemaker,

In some ways I think I have misunderstood you.

I will respond only to your last comment about the scholars in this post.

Scholars have a greater responsibility than ordinary muslims. Also they will have a higher criterion for being judged than us. There is no restriction from pointing out faults, but there is a right approach to doing things.

There was once a town where the people had crossed all limits of trangression. Allah SWT ordered His Angels to destroy the town. But the angel said, there is an extremely pious scholar in that town. Allah SWT ordered that "first destroy that scholar and then the rest of the town" Allah SWT does not need to give us explanations, but the reasoning here is that the scholar had to shoulder the burden of the situation as he was knowledgeable whereas the other trangressors were not.

Wallahi, I cannot give you the reference to the above! I have heard this incident time and again. the last time from Sh Mohammed Saleh of Huda TV, someone I respect immensely. If you are in doubt please go ahead and find the references.

Najamsahar

As Salamu Alaikum

I started reading this thread because it was regarding depression. Well one always gets surprised on IC.

Sister Najamsahar you talk about a Filipino woman who left Islam. You should have asked her to explain to you why she left. The answer is in the Saudi society. I have met many, many women who could not believe that Muslims (especially in the GCC) countries can behave in such cruel ways. They leave their homes and loved ones and come to work for their Muslim brothers and sisters, and feel at the same time they can enjoy living in a Muslim environment and what happens, disillusion. Nothing but disillusion! So they blame Islam and apostate. On the other hand I have also met many, many Reverts who embraced Islam because of the behavior and kindness of Muslims. It works both ways.  Unfortunately the world is not perfect we lose some and we win some. Sister please don�t think I am attacking you or the Saudi society, I am only making a point from personal experience (you have pointed out experience counts) and since you spoke about the Filipino and I have met many Filipinos returning home, I am making this point. Alhamdulillah most of them did not apostate but a few did because their sponsors were very cruel to them and in their ignorance they thought Islam was about cruelty. I put it down to Nisab (Fate) Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala guides whom HE pleases and lets to stray whom HE pleases.

But like brother Peacemaker, I don�t pay much attention to anti-Islamic sites or figures that come from there. It is very disheartening when we have to take the opinions of non-Muslims or anti-Islamic sites over Muslims. They goal is to disunity us and they are succeeding in doing so. Do we find Christians referring to Muslim/Islamic sites to see how many Christians reverted to Islam?

It is very sad Islam is still judged by the behavior of the Muslims and not by what is required of the Muslims by the Shariah.

Taking a cue from a point made my sister Fatima: Those scholars do thier utmost to explain the rulings of islam, they cant force it upon people, can they?  Today it has become a norm to criticism scholars, not only the recent ones but the great yesteryears scholars as well.  I met a woman once, to whom I quoted a Fatawa from the Late Bin Baz (may Allah have mercy upon him) and she told me that he was blind so what does he know. To most people he is regarded as one of the greatest scholars of our time but to some he was a blind man without knowledge. Audho Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim! It was only after about 4-5 months that I found out that his Fatawas to not appeal to the modern Saudi thinking.  He was their Mufti till his death. We all have our favorite scholars, and he (Bin Baz) still is one of my favorite.

One Japanese (ex-Buddhist) woman recently asked me: �Why does the West fear Islam when every book that I read about Islam, so far, points to its Beauty?� But I ask myself these days �Why do the MUSLIMS FEAR ISLAM?�  I wish I knew the answer??????????? Maybe I should start a new thread with this topic.

Btw I found the responses on depression very informative.

Salams

Dear Alwardah

If you read my posts closely, I have tried to say what you have. That the muslims of today and the ignorant way that they prctise Islam is to blame for the disillusionment that is starting to creep within our communities.

I know it works both ways. But many muslims are not aware of this fact.

Did you read my post in response to sis fatima's comment about the scholars efforts?

Najamsahar

najamsahar wrote: Peacemaker, In some ways I think I have misunderstood you. I will respond only to your last comment about the scholars in this post. Scholars have a greater responsibility than ordinary muslims. Also they will have a higher criterion for being judged than us. There is no restriction from pointing out faults, but there is a right approach to doing things. There was once a town where the people had crossed all limits of trangression. Allah SWT ordered His Angels to destroy the town. But the angel said, there is an extremely pious scholar in that town. Allah SWT ordered that "first destroy that scholar and then the rest of the town" Allah SWT does not need to give us explanations, but the reasoning here is that the scholar had to shoulder the burden of the situation as he was knowledgeable whereas the other trangressors were not. Wallahi, I cannot give you the reference to the above! I have heard this incident time and again. the last time from Sh Mohammed Saleh of Huda TV, someone I respect immensely. If you are in doubt please go ahead and find the references. Najamsahar

Assalamu Alaikum,

Yes, Scholars have greater responsibilities. Their primary responsibility is to do research on Islamic affairs and convey message of Islam. That they are doing within available means. How do we know if they are not doing their job? Let us leave that to Allah. If you have any concern with any Scholar, it is better to discuss that matter with him/her. We have strict rules here at the forum regarding dealing with Islamic issues: Qur'an, Hadith, Scholars etc. See the guidelines:

4. When discussing issues dealing with Islam, please support your comments with the Quran or Sunnah. Mocking any Quranic reference, Hadith, scholar, or member will not be tolerated. If you are stating something about a religion, please list your source. If it is an opinion, please state this fact.

As I said before, it is time for us to concentrate on our individual responsibilities. Social affairs such as shelters for women, children, orphans, old age people require financial resources. This should be our responsibility. Therefore, if ISNA, for example, didn't help you, let us work to make another ISNA with those facilities that you would like to see in them. Can we think along this line?

True, there is no islamic country present in the world in spirit, we can still not be exempt from our individual responsibilities. Can we build media similar to BBC, CNN etc where we can invite Scholars to convey the message of Islam? Why can't 1.5 billion Muslims do that? I think if 100 millionaires out of population of 1.5 billion Muslims sit together, they can do it.

If I have that kind of money, I will buy major channels, insha Allah. For the time being, I don't have, don't know if I will ever have.

But, yes, we can do this job collectively. It would really be wise to ask us all such questions.

I would like to quote one of US presidents ( John F Kennedy, isn't it? ):

"Ask not what your country can give to you, ask what you can give to your country."

I would like to put it this way:

"Ask not what ummah or humanity can give to you, ask what you can give to ummah or humanity."

May Allah guide us all.

Peace

As Salamu Alaikum Sister Najamsahar 

I was not disagreeing with you, only sharing my experiences on a point that you mentioned.

Yes I did read your response to sister Fatima and once again I was sharing my experiences when I referred to her statement. Even a great scholar like Shaikh Bin Baz (Ra) (I regard him as one of the greatest of our time) is disrespected and criticized by many of his own people, because his rulings do not satisfy their whims and desires. When I said that disrespecting scholars is the norm, I was generalizing and not referring to anyone in particular.

Wa Alaikum Salam

peacemaker wrote:   I would like to put it this way: "Ask not what ummah or humanity can give to you, ask what you can give to ummah or humanity." May Allah guide us all. Peace

As Salamu Alaikum

Subhanallah! I totally agree here, we should start working on ourselves first and foremost.

Salams

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Sister najamsahar, you were writing the wrongdoings of many muslims and then events of some women apostating in the same breath and i took it from there as it was sort of excuse. But as you said you dint mean it like that and i apologise for trying to solve a life situation with a maths equation of if x=y and all the rest, Sorry.

You raised a point of why not having sermons about opression of womenfolk and about thier rights. Sis thats the problem which is tearing the structure of ummah down. We have so many mosques alhamdulillah where im sure sermons are given of being one ummah. Then next those same people would tell common muslims how wrong the followers of other mosques are. If those sermon would have done something we would not be where we are today. Sis our problem is not just women and how muslim brothers treat their women. Actually i think that sort of is part of our problem, when sisters got treated badly they attributed it to islam rather than those muslims.

So many of us are scared of being married to a strict muslim brother, as sister alwardah asked why are we so scared of being a good muslim? I dont know when it started but with this feel of resentment in our womenfolk has derailed our ummah. I am not blaming sisters, it was a response, basic physics law right, every action has a reaction. But the reaction was wrongly directed, as a result of opression, instead of going towards the Lord and away from people's effections, we went away from Lord and found new ways of getting effections from people.

I was talking to my sister and we were discussing same thing, i said to her too that i think we went slightly off track when we started cutting our womenfolk from deep attachment to deen. I dont know how it started, was it negligence from our side or brother's side. But we put our future at risk because in our lap lays the strength of future. I only know of one muslimah scholar who is world known and thats where we went wrong. In the result of this only about 21% muslims are observing the salah, because if you dont see it happening in your family, your chances are very less in this blindingly glamorous world.

I know i am going on and on but if more than 70% dont even care about the duties toward their Lord, how are they going to care about other things. I dont know what i really am trying to say here but just that majority of us muslims dont know what islam means, its essence, its beauty. Till the time when we do, you cant expect much from people because using power when it is given to you is natural instinct, observing duties and rights of power comes with knowledge and im afraid we dont have that.

wassalam

Whenever, any moderator makes an attempt to enforce guidelines or busy with handling those who consider themselves cyber missionaries, please stay away from those threads. - Peace Maker

Peace Maker, I can only assume this comment was aimed at me since I am the one who posted the books and links that you are talking about.

I feel that you are lying on me by this statement.  I have never said nor claimed to be a Cyber missionary.  Please find a post where I have stated this? Please point out to me where in any post I have claimed to be a cyber missionary?

You asked for references and I found what I knew of, based off personal experiences of reading and interacting with persons from those websites. Who are you to even imply other wise?

What American, Candanian, or European Islamic orgnaization is going to list Apostates and create a support group for them? Please educate me brother I'm waiting. All the years I've been on this earth, surely I can learn more?

Just becuase I am talking about issues I believe to be important to Muslim women that happens to call for the personal accountability of Muslim men because Allah appointed them as the protectors and maintainers of women?

And furthermore, why isn't there a matured female moderator for the women's section instead of a man? This is exactly what I'm talking about. How can a Muslim man speak for me? Until you give birth brother, I don't need you or any other man advising me on PostPartum depression which this thread was supposed to be about.

It is clear that you have personal problem with me, and now I have one with you, because I feel you are lying on me, and I feel you are trying to determine my intentions which only Allah knows.

Mrs. Dia

Salaam o alaikum Fatima

My apologies for my misunderstanding of your post regarding postpartum depression. I proubably got confused with all the pasting and copying I was doing trying to read what people were saying.

And Fatima.. I want to say that I agree with you 100% regarding the solution to Muslim women's problems. Running from Allah won't help, but running toward Allah will help indeed.

Fatima Mernissi wrote a book called "The Forgotten Queen's in Islam." I do not care for Dr. Mernissi but this was a really good book in my opinion.  Muslim farthers have a whole slew of Muslim men from history to offer as a role model, while Muslim women aren't left with very much. There is not much written for the Europeans and North American Muslim about the mothers of the Prophets pbht, nor the Persian Queens, nor is there much written about the Muslima alim's.  As a mother of a duaghter, I do not want my daughter looking up to people such as Oprah Winfrey, Condaleeza Rice, Janet Jackson, nor even Rosa Parks as a role model- they aren't Muslim, there goal isn't ahkirah, there goal is dunya. What makes me enraged about this subject is nobody ever thinks about the young women this affects because were too busy blaming the other gender instead of getting to the real point!!!

The Islam that I know to be truth is the solution:

"It is not Al-Birr( piety, righteousness, and every act of obedience to Alah that you turn your faces toward east and or west inprayer but Al-Birr is the quality of the one who believes in Allah, the Last day, the Angels, the books, the Prophets, and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to al Al-Masakin the poor and to the wayfarer and to those who ask and to set slaves free performs salat and gives the zakat and who fulfil their covenants when they make it and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment and at the time of fighting such are the people of truth and they are the pious. Surat 2:177

How great is our Lord sister? How compassionate how mericful  Yet here we are fighting each other and ripping each other apart?

" And when my slaves ask you O Muhammad concerning me, then answer them, I am indeed near to them by my knowledge. I respoind to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on me with out any meditator so let them obey me and believe in me so that may be led aright." Surat 2:186

SupanaAllah

Muslims need to embrace the tawwasuf in this deen instead of recreating their own sick psychology that is why we are in our condition. It is our minds, our own thoughts, our own feelings, our own naffs- it isn't events or circumstances it's how we as women have chosen to respond to the men who have exceeded the limits Allah warns mankind about.

If they think they can out do Yal-Qaddus, Yal-Aziz, honey, let them be a fool and try.

Nobody owns anything in this world, we don't even own ourselves, we are the property of Allah- we don't belong to men nor do we belong to women, we belong to Allah and were not created for men- that is not our deen, we were created to worship Allah and the Qur'an has made crystal clear what worship is and it has nothing to do with men peroid.

When all Muslims change our sick psychology the status of women will be compaitable with the thealogy of this deen.

If all Muslims could just do these things:

1. Be honest at all times.

2. Honor your agreements at all times.

3. Obey the Prophet pbh when he said a black is not better than a white and a white is not better than a black.

4. Obey the Prophet bph when he said be good to your women folk.

5. Obey the Prophet pbh when he said do not be quick to anger.

6. Obey the Qur'an that advises to seek help in patience and prayer.

If you think about it sisters, allot of the fitnah of men opressing women is because they clearly have dieased heart.

If one does not lie and honors all agreements, Muslim women could seek recourse in their marital agreements but they cant because the brother lies and dishonors the contract.

If one loves the Prophet pbh, than he would love what the Prophet pbh, loved. The Prophet pbh loved women- not only in that human type of way, but he realized the beuaty of our wombs, the beauty of our hearts, and the strength of our minds.

This is what I mean, if people could resolve their character, and integrity issues, we may one day move forward.

Domestic violence

Emotional abuse

Dishonoring agreements

Lying

Slavery

Are serious character and integrity issues. Does anybody understand me here? anybody out there?

Hamza Yusuf: He is the one scholar that has strongly put forward that 3 of the 4 madhabs believe that domestic chores are not the responsibility of women. -NAJAMSAHAR

WAHLAH- She is telling the Truth. In his c.d. set " Marriage Rights and Responsibilities" also in his C.D. " Men and Women" and even his tape cassette seerah "Muhammad" he talks about this issue and more, again, again, again, and again.

I love sheik Hamza Yusuf...May Allah bless him and his family. I'm beginning to believe HE MAY BE THE ONLY SCHOLAR in North America who is attacking the problem starting the the mind and the heart hence:

"Purfication of the heart"

" The Poor Man's book of assitance."

That brother is trying to build a healthy community based of this deen not based off of personal prefferences, biases, predjuices, and ignorance. Every Muslim community has and will fail until and unless they build based off deen, ilm, and a good heart.

He is the only brother I've heard discuss how the abusive behaviour of Muslim men affects not just the mental but the physcial well being of women. In one lecture he made a comment about men stressing their wife out so much they were loosing their hair and missing menstrual peroids.

What's so very sad is many brothers who belong to ISNA and ICNA are M.D.'s some OB.GYN's? And yet they still don't get it.

Sisters that why I'm following Dr. Northrup because she respects the wisdom of our minds and our bodies, Sheik Hamza Yusuf also does to, AllahuAkbar May Allah swt really  bless that brother.

UmmAminata wrote: Whenever, any moderator makes an attempt to enforce guidelines or busy with handling those who consider themselves cyber missionaries, please stay away from those threads. - Peace Maker Peace Maker, I can only assume this comment was aimed at me since I am the one who posted the books and links that you are talking about. I feel that you are lying on me by this statement.  I have never said nor claimed to be a Cyber missionary.  Please find a post where I have stated this? Please point out to me where in any post I have claimed to be a cyber missionary? You asked for references and I found what I knew of, based off personal experiences of reading and interacting with persons from those websites. Who are you to even imply other wise? What American, Candanian, or European Islamic orgnaization is going to list Apostates and create a support group for them? Please educate me brother I'm waiting. All the years I've been on this earth, surely I can learn more? Just becuase I am talking about issues I believe to be important to Muslim women that happens to call for the personal accountability of Muslim men because Allah appointed them as the protectors and maintainers of women? And furthermore, why isn't there a matured female moderator for the women's section instead of a man? This is exactly what I'm talking about. How can a Muslim man speak for me? Until you give birth brother, I don't need you or any other man advising me on PostPartum depression which this thread was supposed to be about. It is clear that you have personal problem with me, and now I have one with you, because I feel you are lying on me, and I feel you are trying to determine my intentions which only Allah knows. Mrs. Dia

Assalamu Alaikum,

UmmAminata:

Here is the entire post by "peacemaker".

There are many cyber missionaries here at the forum. You may have a look at them, just visit interfaith forum, and look posts over the last one year period alone.

Why will I have anything against you, Sister? Please don�t misunderstand me. Also that while commenting on me, you should have looked at my other posts to get an idea what I stand for on the whole.

Bottom line is that I didn�t say that you were cyber missionary. If you falsely claim that I am lying, you should consider that you are attacking me for no reason.

You created a thread, "visually impaired" in comment section in which you falsely charged me for couple of things ( such as I was harsh whereas I was polite, that I thought you were not real Muslim, whereas I never commented on your religion, that you were visually impaired and wanted me to be sensitive whereas I had no idea that you were visually impaired in the first place and I was only enforcing rules meant for everyone at the forum ) that I didn�t respond there so that the matter cools down. And I hope that you would take it in positive way if I don�t respond.

For your kind information, I have always fought for the rights of women.

As far as my moderation in women�s section is concerned, please contact admin about that, or post in comment section, elsewhere, please don�t use terms such as "no matured female moderator" present in the women�s section. This is insulting and goes against guidelines.

Again, if you have any concern, please post respectfully in the comment section.

Any sexist posts that would create clashes between "men" and "women" such as its all men�s faults or women�s faults etc would be deleted.

Yes, the thread has lost the direction.