I. Islam and Muslims.

The name of this religion is Islam, the root of which is Silm and Salam which means peace. Salam may also mean greeting one another with peace. One of the beautiful names of God is that He is the Peace. It means more than that: submission to the One God, and to live in peace with the Creator, within one's self, with other people and with the environment. Thus, Islam is a total system of living. A Muslim is supposed to live in peace and harmony with all these segments; hence, a Muslim is any person anywhere in the world whose obedience, allegiance, and loyalty are to God, the Lord of the Universe.

II. Muslims and Arabs.

The followers of Islam are called Muslims. Muslims are not to be confused with Arabs. Muslims may be Arabs, Turks, Persians, Indians, Pakistanis, Malaysians, Indonesians, Europeans, Africans, Americans, Chinese, or other nationalities.

An Arab could be a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew or an atheist. Any person who adopts the Arabic language is called an Arab. However, the language of the Qur'an (the Holy Book of Islam) is Arabic. Muslims all over the world try to learn Arabic so that they may be able to read the Qur'an and understand its meaning. They pray in the language of the Qur'an, namely Arabic. Supplications to God could be in any language.

While there are one billions Muslims in the world there are about 200 million Arabs. Among them, approximately ten percent are not Muslims. Thus Arab Muslims constitute only about twenty percent of the Muslim population of the world.

III. Allah the One and the Only God.

Allah is the name of the One and Only God. Allah has ninety-nine beautiful names, such as:

The Gracious, The Merciful, The Beneficent,
The Creator, The All-Knowing, The All-Wise,
The Lord of the Universe, The First, The Last, and others.

He is the Creator of all human beings. He is the God for the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims, the Buddhists, the Hindus, the atheists, and others. Muslims worship God whose name is Allah. They put their trust in Him and they seek His help and His guidance.

 IV. Muhammad.

 Muhammad was chosen by God to deliver His Message of Peace, namely Islam. He was born in 570 C.E. (Common Era) in Makkah, Arabia. He was entrusted with the Message of Islam when he was at the age of forty years. The revelation that he received is called the Qur'an, while the message is called Islam.

 Muhammad is the very last Prophet of God to mankind. He is the final Messenger of God. His message was and is still to the Christians, the Jews and the rest of mankind. He was sent to those religious people to inform them about the true mission of Jesus, Moses, David, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham.

 Muhammad is considered to be the summation and the culmination of all the prophets and messengers that came before him. He purified the previous messages from adulteration and completed the Message of God for all humanity. He was entrusted with the power of explaining, interpreting and living the teachings of the Qur'an.

 V. Source of Islam.

 The legal sources of Islam are the Qur'an and the Hadith. The Qur'an is the exact words of God; its authenticity, originality and totality are intact. The Hadith is the report of the sayings, deeds and approvals of the Prophet Muhammad. The Prophet's sayings and deeds are called Sunnah. The Seerah is the writings of followers of Muhammad about the life of the Prophet. Hence, it is the life history of the Prophet Muhammad which provides examples of daily living for Muslims.

 Vl. Some Islamic Principles.

 A. Oneness of God:

 He is One and the Only One. He is not two in one or three in one. This means that Islam rejects the idea of trinity or such a unity of Cod which implies more than one God in one.

B. Oneness of mankind:

People are created equal in front of the Law of God. There is no superiority for one race over another. God made us of different colors, nationalities, languages and beliefs so as to test who is going to be better than others. No one can claim that he is better than others. It is only God Who knows who is better. It depends on piety and righteousness.

 C. Oneness of Messengers and the Message:

Muslims believe that God sent different messengers throughout the history of mankind. All came with the same message and the same teachings. It was the people who misunderstood and misinterpreted them.

 Muslims believe in Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Ismail, Jacob, Moses, David, Jesus, and Muhammad. The Prophets of Christianity and Judaism are indeed the Prophets of Islam.

 D. Angels and the Day of Judgement:

Muslims believe that there are unseen creatures such as angels created by God in the universe for special missions.

Muslims believe that there is a Day of Judgement when all people of the world throughout the history of mankind till the last day of life on earth, are to be brought for accounting, reward and punishment.

E. Innocence of Man at Birth:

Muslims believe that people are born free of. sin. It is only after they reach the age of puberty and it is only after they commit sins that are to be charged for their mistakes. No  responsible for or can take the responsibility for the sins of others. However, the do. forgiveness through true repentance is always open.

F. State and Religion:

Muslims believe that Islam is a total and a complete way of life. It encompasses all aspect of life. As such, the teachings of Islam do not separate religion from politics. As a matter of fact, state and religion are under the obedience of Allah through the teachings of Islam. Hence, economic and social transactions, as we educational and political systems are also of the teachings of Islam.

VII. Practices of Islam.

God instructed the Muslims to practice they believe in. In Islam there are five pillars, namely:

A. Creed (Shahada):

The verbal commitment and pledge that there is only One God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, is considered to be Creed of Islam.

B. Prayers (Salat):

The performance of the five daily prayers required of Muslims.

C. Fasting (Saum):

Fasting is total abstinence from food, liquids and intimate intercourse (between married couples) from dawn to sunset during the Month of Ramadan.

D. Purifying Tax (Zakat):

This is an annual payment of a certain percentage of a Muslim's property which is distributed among the poor or other rightful beneficiaries.

E. Pilgrimage (Haul):

The performance of pilgrimage to Makkah is required once in a lifetime if means are available. Hajj is in part in memory of the trials and tribulations of Prophet Abraham, his wife Hagar and his eldest son Prophet Ishmael.

VIII. Other Related Aspects.

A. Calendar:

Islamic practices are based on the lunar calendar. However, Muslims also use the Gregorian calendar in their daily religious lives. Hence, the Islamic calendar includes both the Common Era and the migration (Higra) year of the Prophet of Islam from Makkah to Madinah in the year of 623 C.E.

B. Celebrations (Eid):

Muslims have two celebrations (Eid); namely, Eid of Sacrifice and Eid of Fast-Breaking. The Eid of Sacrifice is in remembrance of the sacrifice to be by Prophet Abraham of his son. The Eid of Fast-Breaking comes at the end of the month of fasting, Ramadan.

C. Diets:

Islam allows Muslims to eat everything which is good for the health. It restricts certain items such as pork and its by-products, alcohol and any narcotic or addictive drugs.

D. Place of Worship:

The place of worship is called Mosque or Masjid. There are three holy places of worship for the Muslims in the world. These are: Mosque of Kaaba in Makkah, Mosque of the Prophet Muhammad in Madinah, and Masjid Aqsa, adjacent to Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

A Muslim may pray anywhere in the world whether in a Mosque, a house, an office, or outside. The whole world is a place of worship. It is preferable that Muslims pray in a congregation, however, he/she may pray individually anywhere.

E. Holiday:

The holy day of the Muslims is Friday. It is considered to be sacred and the Day of Judgement will take place on Friday. Muslims join together shortly after noon on Friday for the Friday congregational prayer in a Mosque. A leader (Imam) gives a sermon (Khutba) and leads the congregational prayer.

F. Distribution of Muslims in North America:

There are approximately five million Muslims in North America and are distributed in its major cities such as New York, Detroit, Boston, Toledo, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Houston, Cedar Rapids (Iowa), Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Edmonton, Vancouver, Windsor, Winnepeg, Calgary, and others.

C. Contributions in North America:

Muslims are now established in North America. Sears Tower and the John Hancock buildings in Chicago were designed by a Muslim chief architect, originally from Bangladesh. Muslims have established academic institutions, community centers and organizations, schools and places of worship. They live in peace and harmony among themselves and among other groups of people in the society. The rate of crime among Muslims is very minimal. Muslims in North America are highly educated and they have added to the success of American scientific and technological fields.

The Muslims of the early period of the Islamic era were pioneers in medicine, chemistry, physics, geography, navigation, arts, poetry, mathematics, algebra, logarithms, calculus, etc. They contributed to the Renaissance of Europe and world civilization.

IX. Non-Muslims.

Muslims are required to respect all those who are faithful and God conscious people, namely those who received messages. Christians and Jews are called People of the Book. Muslims are asked to call upon the People of the Book for common terms, namely, to worship One God, and to work together for the solutions of the many problems in the society.

Christians and Jews lived peacefully with Muslims throughout centuries in the Middle East and other Asian and African countries. The second Caliph Umar did not pray in the church in Jerusalem so as not to give the Muslims an excuse to take it over. Christians entrusted the Muslims, and as such the key of the Church in Jerusalem is still in the hands of the Muslims.

Jews fled from Spain during the Inquisition, and they were welcomed by the Muslims. They settled in the heart of the Islamic Caliphate. They enjoyed positions of power and authority.

Throughout the Muslim world, churches, synagogues and missionary schools were built within the Muslim neighborhoods. These places were protected by Muslims even during the contemporary crises in the Middle East.

Thank you for the summation of Islam.

However, I have a question (or two):

In the

"A. Creed (Shahada):

The verbal commitment and pledge that there is only One God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, is considered to be Creed of Islam."

Why is Muhammad specifically mentioned if he is one of many Prophets, especially since Muhammad claimed (don't remember where) he was no better then the other apostles?

 The legal sources of Islam are the Qur'an and the Hadith. The Qur'an is the exact words of God; its authenticity, originality and totality are intact. The Hadith is the report of the sayings, deeds and approvals of the Prophet Muhammad. The Prophet's sayings and deeds are called Sunnah. The Seerah is the writings of followers of Muhammad about the life of the Prophet. Hence, it is the life history of the Prophet Muhammad which provides examples of daily living for Muslims."

While I respect the Qur'an (and other texts such as the Bible and the Koran), I question whether the Qur'am is "the exact words of God; its authenticity, originality and totality are intact."

The history of Islam (see http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com history of Islam section) says that years after Muhammad died, his second successor formed a committee to gather notes and recollections from those who heard Muhammad's sermons (mostly slaves and the poor).  The committee decided what would go into the Qur'an and what would be discarded.

We don't have an original Qur'an.  The oldest "complete" one is approximately 200 - 300 years after Muhammad.

As for "totality" why does the Qur'an have "clarifications" to the verses?

"E. Pilgrimage (Haul):

The performance of pilgrimage to Makkah is required once in a lifetime if means are available. Hajj is in part in memory of the trials and tribulations of Prophet Abraham, his wife Hagar and his eldest son Prophet Ishmael."

I do not believe that a Muslim is required to go to Makkah.  However, I think everyone who believes in God should take some time out of their life for a journey for indept reflection on God.  This journey does not have to be thousands of miles and it does not have to be a specific place.

Just some place where there are no distractions where the person can concentrate on God.  Besides, the Qur'an does not really say Makkah, that is a "clarification."

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Hi StephenC,

In islam shahaadah is proclaiming the oneness of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and believing the Messenger (alaihis salaam). Each nation is suppose to believe in thier own Messenger, thier were messengers sent in the same time but to different people and areas. Muslims in one area believed in all but followed thier own Messenger. Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam was sent to the whole of mankind, after his prophethood, every child born is his ummah, whether they believe in him or not. Every body is going to get asked about The Lord and Then thier Messenger. So people born in Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam's time are going to be asked about whether they followed his ways or not. That is why we proclaim 'There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger.

Your second question, i dealt with it in detail in general discussion, its upto you to believe or not.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6997&PN=2&TPN=5 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6997& ;PN=2&TPN=5

Lastly Hajj, at the moment i am a bit short on time so as soon as i get time i will try to find Ayaat about Hajj and inshaAllah will post them. Saying that even if there is no mention of makkah specifically, it is not going to change anything. As you mentioned yourself that islamic laws are derived from Holy Quran and Sunnah. Nowhere in Quran alkarim is the mention of exact timings of prayer or the way to offer those prayer. We follow the Sunnah to offer our prayer in prescribed manner. Same way rituals of Hajj are taken from Sunnah as well, im sure it would make more sense to you as to why we proclaim  'There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger'. Another thing is that if it was not a specific journey why would there be a mention of 'if you could afford it'. I am sure every one can afford a stroll in thier park where they could sit on thier own and reflect on the beauty of nature, perfection of the sky and everything else. It is mentioned in Quran alkarim about facing Qiblah that whichever way you face, thier is Face of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala but still we are told to face toward Ka'aba. So many things in islam are symbolic, we are facing ka'aba not to worship that house but to follow command of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and to show unity among ummah.

Fatima:

"Another thing is that if it was not a specific journey why would there be a mention of 'if you could afford it'. I am sure every one can afford a stroll in thier park where they could sit on thier own and reflect on the beauty of nature, perfection of the sky and everything else."

Actually, the Qur'an does NOT specify Makkah. 
Someone has "clarified" the Qur'an by adding Makkah in brackets.

The journey is not just a stroll in the park to reflect on the beauty of nature, perfection of the sky and everything else.  Muhammad did not get his "revelations" from such a stroll, but from spending time in a cave contemplating God.

From what I can find, that is the closest he came to a religious pilgrimage.

So would it be wrong for the Jews (and the Gentiles) to pray, "There is no God but God and Moses (Jesus) is his messenger?"

I can not find where the Qur'an states that Muhammad is "The last messenger of God."  That is apparently something added later.

To me God is so unique and important that God should not have to share ANY worship/praise/sentence with ANYONE!

Without disputing whether Muhammad was or was not a true messenger from God, it is my humble opinion that any messenger is insignificant compared to God.

When a loved one sends me a letter, I do not hug the mail man.

When flowers are delivered, I do not hug the florist.

When a person delivers a message from God, I thank God.

From my humble reading of the Qur'an (I tend to discount the heresay of the other texts as I do in later books of the Bible), Muhammad would realize that it is a dangerous thing to elevate some one to Godness or near Godness.

The recent uproar about the Danish cartoons of Muhammad.  Almost every day there are cartoons, commercials, and/or other displays of God in unflattering  images.  Yet, not a word of complaint!

Why is that?

air_one wrote: StephenC wrote: I can not find where the Qur'an states that Muhammad is "The last messenger of God."  That is apparently something added later. Dont lie.

I do not knowingly lie.  However, if you think the Qur'an does state that Muhammad is "The last messenger of God" place cite it.

StephenC wrote: Fatima: "Another thing is that if it was not a specific journey why would there be a mention of 'if you could afford it'. I am sure every one can afford a stroll in thier park where they could sit on thier own and reflect on the beauty of nature, perfection of the sky and everything else." Actually, the Qur'an does NOT specify Makkah.  Someone has "clarified" the Qur'an by adding Makkah in brackets.

This exegesis of this passage rendered as Makah is the strognest one. Simply asserting that it is not specifically stated is meaningless unless you bring more to the table. As it stands, I have your baseless "doubt" based upon your conjecture, and I have an account based upon the other primary sources of Islam.

The game of doubt is meaningless.

Sister Fatima also made the point that the specific details about prayer are not in the QUran either.

The Prophet (saw) was not just a set of vocal chords to recite the Quran, he was also a teacher and explained the Quran.

StephenC wrote: "V. Source of Islam.  The history of Islam (see http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com history of Islam section) says that years after Muhammad died, his second successor formed a committee to gather notes and recollections from those who heard Muhammad's sermons (mostly slaves and the poor).  The committee decided what would go into the Qur'an and what would be discarded.

You seem to always have great difficulty with logic, and drawing conclusions.

1) It does not matter what status the person was, who had memorized the Quran. By stating that they were "mostly slaves and poor" is a non sequitur, as they do not effect the transmission and preservation.

2) hundreds of Muslims knew the entire Quran at the death of the Prophet (saw)

3) Muslims do not rely on a written Quran as a primary means of preservation. First and foremost, it is to be recited, and memorized. Writing the Quran simply works in conjunction with the primary means of preservation: memorized.

4) That a committe decided to form and compile an offical written Quran does not imply any problems with the Quran. It simply does not follow.

You have already been warned about making claims without evidence or backing them up. Please back up your remarks.

We don't have an original Qur'an.  The oldest "complete" one is approximately 200 - 300 years after Muhammad.

If you are talking about an extant book entitled Quran, then it did not actually exist until the time when the Prophet (saw) passed away. The Quran was given to us through him, and so when he died, so did the process of revelation.

That we do not have an "extant" Quran is also a non sequitur. It does not follow that we do not have an original Quran because we do not have a bound book entitled Quran until "such and such" period. The Quran is a recitation, and there were hundreds of Muslims who had memorized the "entire" Quran before the Prophet (saw) had passed away.

Your conclusion simply does not follow from your point about an extant Quran.

Andulas<

"The Prophet (saw) was not just a set of vocal chords to recite the Quran, he was also a teacher and explained the Quran. "

So is the Quran imperfect in that it needs to be explained?

"We hold these truths to be self evident..."

Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: "V. Source of Islam.  The history of Islam (see http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com history of Islam section) says that years after Muhammad died, his second successor formed a committee to gather notes and recollections from those who heard Muhammad's sermons (mostly slaves and the poor).  The committee decided what would go into the Qur'an and what would be discarded.   You seem to always have great difficulty with logic, and drawing conclusions. 1) It does not matter what status the person was, who had memorized the Quran. By stating that they were "mostly slaves and poor" is a non sequitur, as they do not effect the transmission and preservation.

Is it not true that they were "mostly slaves and poor?"

You seem to have problems with acknowledging undisputed facts that do not fit into your biases!

As for your statement that it does not matter what the status of the person is, surely you are joking!  Do you REALLY believe that an over worked under feed, uneducated person would be equal to memorization of long verses as say, a student?  Let us be realistic here.  The facts are the facts.  Even if they do not support your position!

StephenC wrote: Andulas< "The Prophet (saw) was not just a set of vocal chords to recite the Quran, he was also a teacher and explained the Quran. " So is the Quran imperfect in that it needs to be explained? "We hold these truths to be self evident..."

Your question is a fallacy. It is called a "complex question", in it you have buried an assumption that you have yet to prove.

Please take care of your errors. If you try to make 50,000 pages in this thread in another attempt to obfuscate the issue, I will cose it down. Be warned.

(do not go on about this warning either, stick to the topic)

1) Your question assumes that a required explanation of clarification implies an imperfection in the revelation.

Please back this assumption up. I will edit your replies if you attempt your usual chicanery. Do not stray from this thread and its point.

2) Islam uses two sources for its foundations. The Quran and the Sunnah. Thats what is used.

3) The role of Prophet (saw) is not bound by the recited revelation. Revelation is of two types: Recited, and unrecited. The Quran contains recited.

Andulas:

"2) hundreds of Muslims knew the entire Quran at the death of the Prophet (saw)"

What is the difference between fact and "religious myths and legends?"

Do you have a list of names and test results that would support that statement?

I have yet to encounter a person that knew had the entire Quran perfectly.   Maybe that would be a good contest to impress nonMuslims.

Do you know the English alphabet or do you have it rotely memorized like a parrot?  If so, quickly tell me what the 17 letter is without going through any of the other letters.  Can you just as quickly recite the alphabet backwards?

Do you claim to "know" the Quran? 

Andulas

"4) That a committe decided to form and compile an offical written Quran does not imply any problems with the Quran. It simply does not follow."

The committee was made up of individuals.  Individuals have their own biases and agendas.  That is human nature.  Are you claiming that this committee was made up of superhuman or supernatural men?

Andulas

"You have already been warned about making claims without evidence or backing them up. Please back up your remarks."

Where is the evidence for your LIST?

StephenC wrote: Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: "V. Source of Islam.  The history of Islam (see http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com history of Islam section) says that years after Muhammad died, his second successor formed a committee to gather notes and recollections from those who heard Muhammad's sermons (mostly slaves and the poor).  The committee decided what would go into the Qur'an and what would be discarded.   You seem to always have great difficulty with logic, and drawing conclusions. 1) It does not matter what status the person was, who had memorized the Quran. By stating that they were "mostly slaves and poor" is a non sequitur, as they do not effect the transmission and preservation. Is it not true that they were "mostly slaves and poor?"

Irrelevant. Here, let me re-paste my last point, which has nothing to do with the number of slaves or poor:

1) It does not matter what status the person was, who had memorized the Quran. By stating that they were "mostly slaves and poor" is a non sequitur, as they do not effect the transmission and preservation.

It was a non-sequitur. Your conclusion does not follow from this point you tried to make.

That is what the truth is, and is an established fact.

Your obfuscation from my reply is a preview of your creation of 50.000 lines of tautalogical dribble that will soon follow. I believe it took 10 pages of thread for you to finally address the topic that was given to you. You will not do it here, and while I am here, you will not do it again.

You seem to have problems with acknowledging undisputed facts that do not fit into your biases!

No, I have problems with your irrational statements, and lack of critical thinking skills. It wastes my time. I also have problems with your constant deflection, and your avoidance of a direct reply to what is given to you.

The undisputed fact is that you are not honest enough to deal with what is given to you.

As for your statement that it does not matter what the status of the person is, surely you are joking!

It seems only you are astouned with yourself. What we ask fo is proof.

Do you REALLY believe that an over worked under feed, uneducated person would be equal to memorization of long verses as say, a student?  Let us be realistic here.  The facts are the facts.  Even if they do not support your position!

You have simply re-asserted what you originally claimed.

Can you provide any proof of this claim?

I have not denied the status of any of the companions. I have denied that your opinions make any real sense.

Keep track of what is really going on.

I have met many poor in third world countries who knew the entire Quran.

Having a difficult life does not mean that you cannot memorize the Quran.

non-suitur

Your sweeping generalizations are simply to juvenile to even comprehend.

Andulas

"Your question is a fallacy. It is called a "complex question", in it you have buried an assumption that you have yet to prove. "

My question was:

"So is the Quran imperfect in that it needs to be explained?"

That is a very simple question.  If the Quran was perfect, there would be no need to "explain it."

I have no assumption in it.  YOU are the one that said that Muhammad "explained" the Quran.  Is that not true?

StephenC wrote: Andulas: "2) hundreds of Muslims knew the entire Quran at the death of the Prophet (saw)" What is the difference between fact and "religious myths and legends?"

obscure. What sense are you trying to make?

Do you have a list of names and test results that would support that statement?

Complex Question. (yes, it is a fallacy)

And yes, there are names of people who had the Quran memorized at that time.

I have yet to encounter a person that knew had the entire Quran perfectly.   Maybe that would be a good contest to impress nonMuslims.

Then you should stop trolling religous forums and get out more. I have met many people who have the Quran memorized.

Do you know the English alphabet or do you have it rotely memorized like a parrot?  If so, quickly tell me what the 17 letter is without going through any of the other letters.  Can you just as quickly recite the alphabet backwards?

non sequitur. Your conlcusion does not follow.....

Do you claim to "know" the Quran?

no  

StephenC wrote: Andulas "4) That a committe decided to form and compile an offical written Quran does not imply any problems with the Quran. It simply does not follow." The committee was made up of individuals.  Individuals have their own biases and agendas.  That is human nature.  Are you claiming that this committee was made up of superhuman or supernatural men?

Another sweeping generalization. This is really poor propaganda.

1) Show which person made the error? Or group of people?

2) The group did not have to be supermen to establish a written Quran. They were supermen in "terms" of faith and in terms of knowing the revelation.

If you claim that they were dishonest or made an error, then bring your proof.

Andulas

"1) Your question assumes that a required explanation of clarification implies an imperfection in the revelation.

Please back this assumption up. I will edit your replies if you attempt your usual chicanery. Do not stray from this thread and its point."

You require more of me than you do of yourself.  But so be it.

So we are on the same page, let us establish the definition of "Perfect"

What is the purpose of the Quran?  Is it to provide a written text of the "revelations" of Muhammad?  If it is perfect, then there is no need for anything else.  No "clarifications"  No editing.  No additions.  No subtractions.  But pro-Islamic historical facts tell us that there are clarifications, editing, additions, and subtractions.

Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: Andulas: "2) hundreds of Muslims knew the entire Quran at the death of the Prophet (saw)" What is the difference between fact and "religious myths and legends?" obscure. What sense are you trying to make? Do you have a list of names and test results that would support that statement? Complex Question. (yes, it is a fallacy) And yes, there are names of people who had the Quran memorized at that time. I have yet to encounter a person that knew had the entire Quran perfectly.   Maybe that would be a good contest to impress nonMuslims. Then you should stop trolling religous forums and get out more. I have met many people who have the Quran memorized. Do you know the English alphabet or do you have it rotely memorized like a parrot?  If so, quickly tell me what the 17 letter is without going through any of the other letters.  Can you just as quickly recite the alphabet backwards? non sequitur. Your conlcusion does not follow.....   Do you claim to "know" the Quran?  no

I refer you to your demand that I provide evidence for my statements.  Where is your evidence that "hundreds of Muslims knew the entire Quran at the death of the Prophet (saw)" and that "there are names of people who had the Quran memorized at that time."

Where are these names?  Demand of yourself what you demand of others!

You are quick to give your unsubstantuated opinion of my postings, but you are extremely reluctant to substantuate your opinions.

StephenC wrote: Andulas "You have already been warned about making claims without evidence or backing them up. Please back up your remarks." Where is the evidence for your LIST?

This is an Islamic forum. I am not required to provide evidence for every single point about my religion that I discuss. If this forum was about your mother, or parents, I would be an idiot to expect you to provide evidence that they were really your paretns everytime you discussed them.

If you want to discuss Islam, and if you make a claim against it, or a claim that runs contrary to our beliefs, then you are required to back it up. It is that simple, and it is not beyond being reasonable.

Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: Andulas "4) That a committe decided to form and compile an offical written Quran does not imply any problems with the Quran. It simply does not follow." The committee was made up of individuals.  Individuals have their own biases and agendas.  That is human nature.  Are you claiming that this committee was made up of superhuman or supernatural men? Another sweeping generalization. This is really poor propaganda. 1) Show which person made the error? Or group of people? 2) The group did not have to be supermen to establish a written Quran. They were supermen in "terms" of faith and in terms of knowing the revelation. If you claim that they were dishonest or made an error, then bring your proof.

Do you deny that the committee was made up of individuals?  Do you deny that individuals have their own biases and agendas and that is human nature?

Did I claim that they were dishonest or made errors?  No.  I did not.  I merely stated a fact.  What is wrong with that unless it shakens your beliefs?

StephenC wrote: Andulas "1) Your question assumes that a required explanation of clarification implies an imperfection in the revelation. Please back this assumption up. I will edit your replies if you attempt your usual chicanery. Do not stray from this thread and its point." You require more of me than you do of yourself.  But so be it. So we are on the same page, let us establish the definition of "Perfect" 1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman. 2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect. 3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes. 4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime. 5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy. 6. thorough; complete; utter: perfect strangers. 7. pure or unmixed: perfect yellow. 8. unqualified; absolute: He has perfect control over his followers. 9. expert; accomplished; proficient. 10. unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree: He made a perfect fool of himself. 11. Botany. a. having all parts or members present. b. monoclinous. 12. Grammar. a. noting an action or state brought to a close prior to some temporal point of reference, in contrast to imperfect or incomplete action. b. designating a tense or other verb formation or construction with such meaning. 13. Music. a. applied to the consonances of unison, octave, and fifth, as distinguished from those of the third and sixth, which are called imperfect. b. applied to the intervals, harmonic or melodic, of an octave, fifth, and fourth in their normal form, as opposed to augmented and diminished. 14. Mathematics. (of a set) equal to its set of accumulation points. 15. Obsolete. assured or certain. �noun Grammar 16. the perfect tense. 17. a verb form or construction in the perfect tense. Compare future perfect, pluperfect, present perfect. �verb (used with object) 18. to bring to completion; finish. 19. to bring to perfection; make flawless or faultless. 20. to bring nearer to perfection; improve. 21. to make fully skilled. 22. Printing. to print the reverse of (a printed sheet).

This is great theatrics, but it is, essentially, "handwaving" your way to restate what you originally stated. This list of defintions all differ, and you have not applied your "cut and paste" list to your argument to make your conclusion work. In essence, you are simply back to your silly games.

In the end, we still do not know anything about how you come to your conclusion.

What is the purpose of the Quran?

guidance

Is it to provide a written text of the "revelations" of Muhammad?

The Quran is a revelation from Gd as given by Prophet Muhammad (saw), not a bound book. The writing of the Quran is another way to preserve and convey it, not the primary.

If it is perfect, then there is no need for anything else.

You asserted this before, and your juvenile list of definitions do not make this work.

You posited, "if it is perfect" as a condition that cannot be fulfilled if there is a need for anything else. This is logically unsound, and it is factually unsound. Care to reword or rethink this?

No "clarifications"  No editing.  No additions.  No subtractions.

yes, you have asserted this before. And it still makes little sense as it did when you first repeated this new mantra of yours.

Please provide something more than a list of definitions. Handwaving is really in poor fashion.

The Quran was not edited.

Men did not subtract from it.

Clarifiaction is from the imperfectness of man, not the imperfectness of revelation.

We are not born know Arabic, or the context of the historical setting, or the Sunnah. To say that if something is explained implies it is imperfect is simply a non sequitur.

Something is explained because as humans we must make effort to learn. The role of the Prophet went beyond being a set of vocal chords. He was given revelation not part of the Quran.

Your crude and ignorant statement would imply that Gd should just put the revelation in all of our heads, so that we are born with it, and we can skip an intermediary.

But pro-Islamic historical facts tell us that there are clarifications, editing, additions, and subtractions.

Another generalization, and unstated implication. 

Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: Andulas "You have already been warned about making claims without evidence or backing them up. Please back up your remarks." Where is the evidence for your LIST? This is an Islamic forum. I am not required to provide evidence for every single point about my religion that I discuss. If this forum was about your mother, or parents, I would be an idiot to expect you to provide evidence that they were really your paretns everytime you discussed them. If you want to discuss Islam, and if you make a claim against it, or a claim that runs contrary to our beliefs, then you are required to back it up. It is that simple, and it is not beyond being reasonable.

Is that your way of saying that there is no proof?

I have posted claims with cites from this very website ( http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com ).  Not from any anti-islamic site.

I will restate my claims.

The only publicly known oldest copy of the Quran was written 200-300 years after the death of Muhammad.  "This eighth century manuscript from Mecca or Medina is one of the two oldest known existing copies of the Quran." History of Islam http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com

Do you dispute this?

Muhammad preached to slaves and the poor.  History of Islam http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com Do you dispute this?

The Quran was not compiled until years after the death of Muhammad.  It was commissioned by Uthman who formed a committee to sort out what would and would not be in the Quran. 

"Of much greater importance to Islam, however, was 'Uthman's compilation of the text of the Quran as revealed to the Prophet. Realizing that the original message from God might be inadvertently distorted by textual variants, he appointed a committee to collect the canonical verses and destroy the variant recensions."

"With great difficulty, the task was carried out and the first complete manuscript compiled from "bits of parchment, thin white stones - ostracae - leafless palm branches, and the memories of men."

Both from History of Islam http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com  

Now what of my claims are not true?  I am not asking what is the relevance.  Just what is not true.

*text deleted: you have been warned about making charges without evidence. In this instance, you have avoided the information that does not work for you, and you have twisted the history of the Quran with information that does work for you in order to make an inaccurate charge. 

Should not a person be fully informed of Islam so they can make educated decisions?

StephenC wrote: Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: Andulas "4) That a committe decided to form and compile an offical written Quran does not imply any problems with the Quran. It simply does not follow." The committee was made up of individuals.  Individuals have their own biases and agendas.  That is human nature.  Are you claiming that this committee was made up of superhuman or supernatural men? Another sweeping generalization. This is really poor propaganda. 1) Show which person made the error? Or group of people? 2) The group did not have to be supermen to establish a written Quran. They were supermen in "terms" of faith and in terms of knowing the revelation. If you claim that they were dishonest or made an error, then bring your proof. Do you deny that the committee was made up of individuals?  Do you deny that individuals have their own biases and agendas and that is human nature?

I stated that the followers put together an authoritative written copy.

We are not talking about individuals in general, we are talking about those who were in that group. You are trying to provide a sweeping generalization on a particular group of men. Can you provide evidence that any of the indivudals had an agenda that went beyond the scope of compiling a written authorized Quran? 

Did I claim that they were dishonest or made errors?  No.  I did not.  I merely stated a fact.  What is wrong with that unless it shakens your beliefs?

You have not stated facts. You have given a sweeping generalization.

Andulas

guidance

Then why is it not complete enough that it does not need "clarification" or explanation?

The Quran is a revelation from Gd as given by Prophet Muhammad (saw), not a bound book. The writing of the Quran is another way to preserve and convey it, not the primary."

Does the "revelations" from Muhammad order the Quran to be written?

Andulas

"The Quran was not edited."

Then why does Islamicity.com state:

"Of much greater importance to Islam, however, was 'Uthman's compilation of the text of the Quran as revealed to the Prophet. Realizing that the original message from God might be inadvertently distorted by textual variants, he appointed a committee to collect the canonical verses and destroy the variant recensions."

This sure sounds to me like the definition of "edit."  What is YOUR definition of "edit?"

StephenC wrote: Andalus wrote: StephenC wrote: Andulas "You have already been warned about making claims without evidence or backing them up. Please back up your remarks." Where is the evidence for your LIST? This is an Islamic forum. I am not required to provide evidence for every single point about my religion that I discuss. If this forum was about your mother, or parents, I would be an idiot to expect you to provide evidence that they were really your paretns everytime you discussed them. If you want to discuss Islam, and if you make a claim against it, or a claim that runs contrary to our beliefs, then you are required to back it up. It is that simple, and it is not beyond being reasonable. Is that your way of saying that there is no proof?

No, it is my way of saying that your requests are absurd and unreasonable. Pay attention.

I have posted claims with cites from this very website ( http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com ).  Not from any anti-islamic site. I will restate my claims. The only publicly known oldest copy of the Quran was written 200-300 years after the death of Muhammad.  "This eighth century manuscript from Mecca or Medina is one of the two oldest known existing copies of the Quran." History of Islam http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com Do you dispute this?

No, but you have been replied to about the conclusion you drew from it. And you have not been able to really respond to the points given to you, but only trying to nit pick about trival nuances.

I have replied to your claim, and we are back full circle. This is your usual game.

Muhammad preached to slaves and the poor.  History of Islam http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com Do you dispute this?

non sequitur.

This has already been addressed.

The Quran was not compiled until years after the death of Muhammad.  It was commissioned by Uthman who formed a committee to sort out what would and would not be in the Quran.  "Of much greater importance to Islam, however, was 'Uthman's compilation of the text of the Quran as revealed to the Prophet. Realizing that the original message from God might be inadvertently distorted by textual variants, he appointed a committee to collect the canonical verses and destroy the variant recensions." "With great difficulty, the task was carried out and the first complete manuscript compiled from "bits of parchment, thin white stones - ostracae - leafless palm branches, and the memories of men." Both from History of Islam http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com   Now what of my claims are not true?  I am not asking what is the relevance.  Just what is not true.

You are now building a strawman. I have never argued that your sources were untrue, but your logic and conclusion you drew from them, and I added in things you left out.

And nothing you quoted above is your own, I addressed YOUR CONLUSIONS.

Nice attempt at a strawman!

Should not a person be fully informed of Islam so they can make educated decisions?

You leave out those things that do not work for your theories, and you never directly debate the points given to you when someone calls you on your innaccuracies.

Andulas

"Men did not subtract from it."

Please see above especially "destroy the variant recensions."

Andulas

"And nothing you quoted above is your own, I addressed YOUR CONLUSIONS."

Of course the quoted above is not my own.  I am following your onesided demand that I provide proof of my positions!!!!

What exactly do you think my CONCLUSIONS are?

Andulas

"Clarifiaction is from the imperfectness of man, not the imperfectness of revelation."

I agree and if someone puts a clarification in an otherwise perfect text, then the text becomes imperfect!

Mud into water produces muddy water.

StephenC wrote: Andulas Quote: StephenC What is the purpose of the Quran? guidance Then why is it not complete enough that it does not need "clarification" or explanation?

This is a complex question, a fallacy. I have already responded to this erroneous question earlier, which you chose to ignore.

This topic is now closed. You were warned.

Andulas

"We are not born know Arabic, or the context of the historical setting, or the Sunnah. To say that if something is explained implies it is imperfect is simply a non sequitur."

If I told you to "Go over there."   Would that be a "perfect" direction?  No, because you do not know where I am and you do not know where I am indicating.

Compare my directions to the Quranic directions about pilgrimage.

StephenC wrote: Andulas "The Quran was not edited." Then why does Islamicity.com state: "Of much greater importance to Islam, however, was 'Uthman's compilation of the text of the Quran as revealed to the Prophet. Realizing that the original message from God might be inadvertently distorted by textual variants, he appointed a committee to collect the canonical verses and destroy the variant recensions." This sure sounds to me like the definition of "edit."  What is YOUR definition of "edit?"

variant means it was not the Quran. So the Quran was not edited. Instead of trying to ask st**id questions in order to try and stump Muslims why not spend the time to learn about it.

StephenC wrote: Andulas "Men did not subtract from it." Please see above especially "destroy the variant recensions."

please learn what variant is.

StephenC wrote: Andulas "And nothing you quoted above is your own, I addressed YOUR CONLUSIONS." Of course the quoted above is not my own.  I am following your onesided demand that I provide proof of my positions!!!! What exactly do you think my CONCLUSIONS are?

Again your lack of education shows.

The quotes are evidence, your proof is your argument, or rather, lack of argument.

Your arguments are problematic. You refuse to acknowledge any point given to you about your bad reasoning skills.

Andulas

"I stated that the followers put together an authoritative written copy."

How in the world is it possible for it to be an authoritative written copy if:

A.  Muhammad, the only one hearing the "voice" was dead,

B.  God or his angels did not put a "seal of approval" on it.

Or are you claiming that the entire membership of the committee attended ALL of Muhammad's sermons!  Or was it presented to those who did attend ALL of Muhammad's sermons and they "Authorized it?"

Be realistic!

StephenC wrote: Andulas "Clarifiaction is from the imperfectness of man, not the imperfectness of revelation." I agree and if someone puts a clarification in an otherwise perfect text, then the text becomes imperfect! Mud into water produces muddy water.

Another sign of your ignorance. The Quran is in Arabic only. If there is a clarificaiton in the text, then the text is not longer the Quran, but instead, it is tafisr.

It is obvious you are going to drag this out to 50,000 lines of grabage. You are going to grab onto even the smallest , trivial points and make sure that your poorly constructed conclusions remain without your admittance of error. You are wasting the forums time. You have been answered, and replied to, and no one wants to go round and around with you.

You have been answered, take it or leave it.  

Andulas

"You refuse to acknowledge any point given to you about your bad reasoning skills. "

That is because you merely state your opinion (without basis or evidence) of my postings.

I have too many times commented on your apparent desire to be a teacher who merely writes "poorly written" on student essays without a basis or explanation.

I have compiled with your (one sided) demands to provide proof or citations for my statements.  Why can't you?

The bottom line is that the oldest publicly known copy of the Quran was written by a committee who picked and chose what they wanted to put in it.  The resulting text still needed clarification.  You may not like the way I phrase it, but it is true.  That is why I believe the Quran is the product of man as is imperfect.  Show me otherwise.

Provide verifiable proof that it is not imperfect and I will denounce my views and dedicate my life to the protection of the Quran and will embrace Islam.

If you can not, will you admit that the current publicly known version of the Quran is imperfect?

StephenC wrote: Andulas "I stated that the followers put together an authoritative written copy." How in the world is it possible for it to be an authoritative written copy if: A.  Muhammad, the only one hearing the "voice" was dead, B.  God or his angels did not put a "seal of approval" on it.

Authoritative "written" copy does not mean "the first authoritative Quran", since the Quran is the revelation that had been memorized, and writings compiled, at the death of the Prophet (and approved).

You are drawing bad conclusions again.

Or are you claiming that the entire membership of the committee attended ALL of Muhammad's sermons!  Or was it presented to those who did attend ALL of Muhammad's sermons and they "Authorized it?" Be realistic!

I am saying that hundreds of Muslims, listed in hadiths and in the isnaads, knew the entire Quran.

Thats what I am saying. That is entirely realistic!