Bismillah,

Could we start a new group called something like Liberal Muslims discuss Modern Day Life with each other?

rami wrote: Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem You can do that in the general section. "Liberal Muslim" is a derogatory term, islam is about sunnah and quran not changing them to suit our self. the christians and jews changed there religion and this is what this term (liberal) is advocating.

 Absolutely,Islam is Islam;not an another thing...the name of islam should not be used for the desires in the hearts not including the science of Islam...belive what you want to believe;but don't abuse the name of islam,it may cause serious results...

One assumes there might be different ways of interpreting some parts of the Q'ran and maybe even the Sunnah? If one assumes this is true and putting more thought into interpretation is not haram, then what is the problem?

Less seriously:

There is a joke that talks about a Pope dying and going to heaven. He was a lover of books and reading all his life, so he was often to be found in Heaven's Library. One day, people came running (flying?) in to the library from all over the place when they heard a man shouting and crying from inside. They found the Pope with his head lying on an open book - he was crying and banging a fist on the table.

the people asked him "What's wrong?!" the Pope said "the Lord told us to celebRate! the word was celebRate!!!"  

Kim... 

Bismillah,

Bismillah,

So I understand that a new group is allowed, but that some are offended by the name.  Decisions are difficult to make in life, but they are helpful in making progress. 

Suggestions from others who might be interested in having discussions on topics like this?  The five pillars group?  The I don't beileve plucking your eyebrows sends you to hell group?

People like me, we are muslim because we follow the pillars of Islaam.  I've been locked out of the mosque at prayer time because I'm a woman.  I would really liked to have seen the speakers' faces at the prayers I did get to go to and the meetings as well.  I see no harm in them seeing my face, especially when I would run into these people at the grocery store and school and work.  I don't even know what the sisters' husbands look like! 

I believe in the Quran, but I would not be part of a group that inflicted punishments on people.  We live in America and many other places where this is unrealistic thinking.  No-one is being killed for adultery.  Indeed, I have heard of  adulterers sinning at night and giving the Friday Khutbah.

I want to discuss things based on the real world we live in.  I an not in Saudi or Darfur.  I work and have kids and I don't have a community where I live, but if I did, I wouldn't be around people who don't want to help but just throw quotations at me. 

This is the only Muslim community I have besides my small family unit.  So just like some sites are for sisters only, people who love Islaam but not severity and judgementalism need to discuss things.  Since this is a discussion forum, it would be a great place to do that.

As salaamu alaikum Herjihad,

Why don't you try starting a specific topic or two under general discussions and see where that goes?  It would be a start at least.

I do understand your frustrations as I lived all alone without any other Muslims for several years - not a great situation to be in.

Peace, ummziba.

Assalam-alaikum Herjihaad

I agree with Ummziba. Instead of giving a name such as "liberal" which has been immediately interpreted as offensive, I think you should start a topic under general discussions. Will look forward to your post but I may be slow in responding.

Good points.

Herjihaad, how about these titles at least you don't have the word liberal ;-) 

• "Modern Day living in the life of a muslim (muslims)" "
• Islam in the Modern Day"
• "Islam in the 21st Century (15th Century according to the islamic calander)"
• "Issues facing islam/muslims in the modern world/day"

I believe in the Quran, but I would not be part of a group that inflicted punishments on people.  We live in America and many other places where this is unrealistic thinking.  No-one is being killed for adultery.  Indeed, I have heard of  adulterers sinning at night and giving the Friday Khutbah.

Capital punishment does exist in America.

Deliberate torture of Muslims by the American army does take place at the Guantanamo Bay.

Liberal Americans, huh?

stick to the topic, any further comments will result in deletion of your post.rami.

salaams. i have read all these posts and im ever so confused. what exactly is this all about. this group that u r looking to form....will it be a chat group of people who have never met before, and waht is its aims and objectives.

y the need for such a group when there can be open discussions on any topic here. what am i missing here cos i cant see what the fuss ia ll about

Bismillah,

So many things to consider in the decision-making process!  Thanks for all of your input. 

Rami wrote

Interprating the Quran and sunnah is for the Mujtahids among the scholars no one else is qualified to do so. Any person is more than welcome to study and become a mujtahid but it is only after you have reached that level of knowledge and understanding  can you opinion be accepted. I am talking about matters of relegion here not trivial things in comparison.

Can you tell me how many Sahaba were qualified as Mujtahids and also were issued with so called Mujtahid certificates/degrees. For practising Islam in everyday life you don't need any Mujtahid to tell you what to do, you can read Quran and Ahadith and follow. If the issues are complex then Quran has hinted that people should ponder, think, discuss, at that point scholarly help might prove useful. Here we are trying to talk about day to day life of a Muslim under current circumstances. Those circumstances could be discussion on drugs, blood transfusion, IVF, Cloning and working for financial institutions who are not directly involved in riba but are affected by it. These circumstances are not discussed in the Quran and ahadith. From your reply it appears that you want to depend on the Mujtahids of the 19th or 20th centuries, but these are current issues. Discussion on this is not going to damage the fundamentals of Islam but would provide debate and discussions from different viewpoints which may be helpful for all Muslims.

The other issue about being a certified Mujtahid to interpret the Quran of ahadith limits those who may have gained extensive knowledge through informal study. Just because they have not received the title of a Mujtahid does not stop them for using their minds from pondering and understanding the Quran. Let people come up with topics to understand and follow Islam correctly under the changed circumstances. Here nobody is advocating the change in Islamic fundamentals such as Quran and ahadith.

Herjihaad you wrote

Believing in the Quran means believing and practising all commandments that Allah has made for the believers. When you say "but I would not be part of a group that inflicted punishments on people" Inflicting punishments on the wrong doers is the responsibility of all civilised societies which includes Muslims. According to Islamic teachings (both Quran and Hadith) if the wrong doers somehow escape punishment, on the day of judgement that person will be punished far more severely, beyond ones imagination. Of course if one sincerely repents and asks for forgiveness, who knows Allah out of His Mercy may forgive.

You say " We live in America and many other places where this is unrealistic thinking.  No-one is being killed for adultery".

The above explantaion about inflicting punishment on the sinners is not going to go away because of geographical location. We are accountable for all our deeds and Allah has promised that we are going to be rewarded/punished according to our deeds. The event of adultery at the time of RasulAllah is worth mentioning. When the ayat of adultery punishment was revealed to the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) who Allah described as "Rahmatul-Aalameen" meaning merciful to all of Allah's creation, it was not easy for him to implement during his time. Allah created two volunteers one was female and the other one was male. One woman came to RasulAllah on her own (could be to avoid the punishment of the hereafter) and said that she was involved in adultery and would like to take the prescribed Quranic punishment which was stoning to death. The Prophet (PBUH) asked her to wait for a couple of months to make sure she was not pregnant. Later she was found pregnant and gave birth to a boy. Immediately after that she again came to the Prophet and asked for the punishment. Then the prophet asked her to go back and come once the child starts eating his food himself (ie after two years). That woman came back after two years to the Prophet with her child who was holding bread in his hands and eating. Again she insisted upon the Prophet (PBUH) to inflict the punishment but this time the Prophet (PBUH) had no choice but to implement the Huduud (law of Allah), because Allah revealed in the Holy Quran that let our hearts not soften in implementing these punishments ordered in the Quran. Allah knows what is good for us, so we should not hesitate in implementing the commandments of Allah.

Now in the instance of a man who came forward and told the Prophet (PBUH)that he committed adultery, the Prophet(PBUH) turned his back as if he was not listening. The man came from the other side and repeated the same thing. Once more the Prophet (PBUH) turned his back. The third time when the man came in front of the Prophet (PBUH)and told the same thing then the Prophet ordered the Sahabah to execute the Quranic punishment ie 100 lashes. During the punishment the man's blood splashed on to one of the Sahabah who remarked that it was the blood of a sinner. When the Prophet (PBUH) heard this he said if whole of Madina city shares the repentance of this punished person, the whole of Madina could be forgiven for their past sins. Such is the power of repentance in Islam and one should including myself should prefer to take the punishment of this world than the hereafter.

When you say "Indeed, I have heard of  adulterers sinning at night and giving the Friday Khutbah" Islam doesn't permit any loose talk about anyone without concrete proof. We are required to talk only good things about others, but if required in order to save damage to anyone the truth can be spoken on need basis. Being Muslims we cannot accuse anyone as a sinner unless we have physically witnessed such acts. Because the punishment for the accuser of adultery without proof is 80 lashes ie 20 less than the criminal.

These are Quranic punishments and only Islamic governments have the capability to execute these punishments. For people who are living in other countries the first thing they can do is hide your sin by not talking to anybody around and seek sincere forgiveness from Allah so that by His Mercy Allah may forgive us in the hereafter. This does'nt give us a license to do these things and feel they are alright.

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah

Your post for herjihad is a very coincise input . Jazak allah khair.

Tasneem wrote: For practising Islam in everyday life you don't need any Mujtahid to tell you what to do, you can read Quran and Ahadith and follow. If the issues are complex then Quran has hinted that people should ponder, think, discuss, at that point scholarly help might prove useful.

The quran itself says, that there are two types of verses in it. One whose meanings are clear, and others which are not so clear in meaning.

Further, no legal ruling should be derived from the Quran without proper scholarship.

The prophet(SAW) has said, one who interprets the quran on mere conjunctre has sinned, even if his interpretation is correct.

The matters of Quran are not light matters ... since this is the very speech of Allah. If one says, the Quran says such and such with no knowledge, he is actually saying allah says such and such with no knowledge, and this is a grave sin. 

It is definetely within the scope of normal human intellect to read and deduce meanings form sunnah and Quran, however, one shld know the correct sholarly positions for each matter because of the above hadith.

Reflection on the Quran which is called tadabbur, is a different matter, and is the duty of every muslim. To reflect, to study understand and then act upon the Quran is what we are all supposed to do.

Tasneem wrote: Here we are trying to talk about day to day life of a Muslim under current circumstances. Those circumstances could be discussion on drugs, blood transfusion, IVF, Cloning and working for financial institutions who are not directly involved in riba but are affected by it. These circumstances are not discussed in the Quran and ahadith. From your reply it appears that you want to depend on the Mujtahids of the 19th or 20th centuries, but these are current issues. Discussion on this is not going to damage the fundamentals of Islam but would provide debate and discussions from different viewpoints which may be helpful for all Muslims.

Are u implying there are no scholars today, (in the 21st century) who live in present time?  Is this what ur understanding is? Are u telling us we dont have institution that teach islamic knowledge?

Tasneem wrote: The other issue about being a certified Mujtahid to interpret the Quran of ahadith limits those who may have gained extensive knowledge through informal study. Just because they have not received the title of a Mujtahid does not stop them for using their minds from pondering and understanding the Quran.

No it does not. However, those who have received even informal education in religion refer to certain recognised system, ie a madhab. If this is not the case, each such individual will be an institution of his own with little congruency with the actuall institutions.

Tasneem wrote: Let people come up with topics to understand and follow Islam correctly under the changed circumstances. Here nobody is advocating the change in Islamic fundamentals such as Quran and ahadith.

Discussions have never been discouraged. Nor are these being toned down now.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

At the outset let me say that if we patiently gave thought to other people�s expressions with a cool mind we would not waste time in arguing who is right or wrong. My quote that you have quoted I think amply explains the essence of your explanation.

I have said : For practising Islam in everyday life you don't need any Mujtahid to tell you what to do, you can read Quran and Ahadith and follow.

I have qualified my statement by the word everyday life meaning day to day living that encompasses salaat, fasting, our behaviour with each other, etc etc, majority of the information on this is available for Muslims in the Quran and Ahadith. No one is suggesting that by doing this you would derive a �legal ruling� as you have stated.

054.017, 054.022, 054.032, 054.040
YUSUFALI: And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

003.007
YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

Tasneem any further posts which are of topic will be deleted, if you wish to continue this conversation you are curently having please start a new topic.

I will properly reply to your posts when i have the time but the short answer is yes the sahaba did preform ijtihad, so did the tabiin and those after them.

Islamic defanition for Ijtihad is Independant reasoning in line with the Quran and Sunnah. It was used to deal with cases which were not specificaly spoken of by the Quran and Sunnah.

The Quran ans Sunnah set the Guidlines/parameters/framework for how a muslim should live, behave...etc it didnt deal with every single issue specificaly.

You may like to follow another rule which the scholars have laid down...Dont interprate the Quran in a way which contradicts other verses in the Quran.

Wa-alaikum-Salaam

Thankyou for your response , but I do not understand what the problem is with you people. The information I have provided is from Quran and you do not want to discuss on that, instead you give wrong interpretations of what I have stated. What do you mean that " You may like to follow another rule which the scholars have laid down..."? What rule am I following  and which scholar do you have preference for? I would like to correct myself if I am wrong and I look forward to the verses of the Quran that you say I am contradicting. I don't blindly listen to scholars without first reading up. Unfortunately, a lot of our brothers and sisters take the short cut of listening to the scholars (who sometimes create terrible controversies by making unwarranted comments, as in a recent case in the country where you live), because of this they give up learning on their own.

I think in the interest of Muslims who are interested in learning, you should leave this thread open, instead of deleting posts, so everyone can discuss and learn. Is this not Ijtihad? Alternatively, you write only your viewpoint and don't allow any discussions at all. The useless posts on Islam and Hinduism are going on endlessly, why is it you are allowing that which is of no benefit to any Muslim, and here there is learning for Muslims, and only because it goes against your views, you wish to delete it.  Let us be humble about our knowledge which is limited and let us open our hearts and minds to learning.

Once Hazrat Umar was giving a sermon and made a comment that the women were asking a lot of dowry to get married. A lady amongst the listeners spoke and said to Hazrat Umar that it is none of his business to comment on this. And Hazrat Umar said that I was wrong and the lady is right. So we would like to see this scholarly approach like Hazrat Umar from our contemporary scholars. Can you sight any examples of this kind? Everyone seems to be an authority by themselves and don't wish to give room for any discussions. Quoting Dr Mahathir Mohammed in his recent speech at Islamicity "Islam does allow for differences in the interpretations. But does it allow interpretations which are so different as to cause accusations of not being Islamic and the believers not being Muslim, so different that each is willing to fight and kill because of what each claim to be heresy on the part of the others." Seems like we are on this path.

Bismillah,

Mustafa,

I would not join a group that advocates in reality to practice death for adultery and cutting hands off for stealing.  So, I don't want to go to Saudi to live for sure. 

Tasneem,

I don't know what to comment about your comments to me.  Everyone's input is important, so keep inputing!

"the christians and jews changed there religion"

I am a Roman Catholic/Christian.  We have not changed our religion since it was first established by Christ over 2000 years ago.  I have no idea what the Jews have changed.  But I do know the Protestant Christians have changed their beliefs many times, as is evidenced in the large number of Protestant denominations.  Also, I believe that we are all, Catholic, Muslim, and Jew, brothers/sisters, as we are all sons of Abraham.  Additionally, I believe human beings have been given a "free will" to determine what they will and will not believe.  So atheists and agnostics have much good to contribute to the world too.  We cannot force them to believe in a God which they honestly feel does not exist.  If they have good morals and values, they should be welcomed to contribute their opinions to conversations as well.  No one has to agree with anyone, but EVERYONE should be given the opportunity to express their opinion. (Just my opinion).

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I fail to see how open discussion harms anyone, as long as it is done with maturity and respect for all those involved in the conversations.  We are adults, and we know we have beliefs which differ from one another, but also we share beliefs on many subjects.  There are many values upon which we all agree.  Don't you believe it is possible that if we focused more on our agreements and the beliefs we DO have in common, rather than arguing constantly about our differences, we could solve a lot of problems present in the world?  We are ALL God's children.  HE loves us ALL.  Why can't WE love and respect each other, as HE told us to do?  Or am I mistaken?

Peace to All,

Patty

Tasneem wrote: I think in the interest of Muslims who are interested in learning, you should leave this thread open, instead of deleting posts, so everyone can discuss and learn. Is this not Ijtihad? Alternatively, you write only your viewpoint and don't allow any discussions at all. The useless posts on Islam and Hinduism are going on endlessly, why is it you are allowing that which is of no benefit to any Muslim, and here there is learning for Muslims, and only because it goes against your views, you wish to delete it.  Let us be humble about our knowledge which is limited and let us open our hearts and minds to learning.

What is the topic of this thread, my dear?

are ur concerns within the topic and in an appropriate forum, or are they off? Just think about it with a cool mind before thinking there is a problem with the moderators here.

In other words, please start a NEW thread for your discussion in a forum that is meant for it .... u are writing in "comments and complaints" This pertains to coments and complaints you may have about the working of this webboard, and not about Islam as a system or muslims as a community.

Peace.