Assalamualikum. I've read some of the views of Mr.StephenC and it surprised me that all the muslims r trying very hard to satisfy his pointless queries. The point is any non muslim would find numerous discrepancies in islam. The religion is based on simple fundamentals -- there is no God but Allah, Muhammad is His messenger and having admitted that, u r bound to follow anything, literally anything, that Allah says through His messenger. If someone doesn't believe in these, it is absolutely pointless to discuss in depth the various laws, viewpoints,etc. of islam with him. I repeat, absolutely pointless. If someone doesn't recognize the existence of the Sun, there is no point for him to discuss what happens inside it. It's utterly ridiculous.

Now I want to tell everyone why they should believe in Islam. If we can prove:

1. that the man the muslims believe, follow and call Muhammad (Pbuh)ever existed and is not a fairytale figure;
2. that what is known about his life and teachings are true on the basis of concrete,ruthless evidence;
3. that he did not tell a single lie in his whole life

       then, we must come to the conclusion that whatever he said is true. That's the most important point.If we can prove that whatever he said is true, then any human being who is a fearless advocate and believer of whatever the truth is,however ugly it is, and willing to sacrifice his life to uphold the truth ( a la Socrates) is bound to believe in islam.Now let's prove the points one by one.

1. That he existed

 It is very easy to prove. No respected and learned historian(non muslim or atheist)has denied or even questioned the existence of Muhammad (PBUH). He is found in all the authentic encyclopaedias of the world.There is absolutely no controversy regarding this matter.

   2.  That his biography and sayings are authentic

There are two books where Muhammad's preachings have been recorded. One is the Qur'an, which according to Muhammad (PBUH), is the word of Allah, the God, and which he ordered his associates to memorise immediately as he told them. For decades since the Qur'an was revealed, thousands of his followers recited it relentlessly and no word of it were added or omitted because there was a system of check and balance. Hundreds of memorisers used to sit together and recite one by one. If anyone forgot a single word or made a mistake, others would immediately make the correction and everyone would then start reciting the correct verse. Then in the reign of Khalipha Omar, all the memorisers of the Qur'an were summoned in a mosque and in the same system of check and balance, the whole Qur'an was recorded in writing. Since then, innumerable copies have been printed and the system of check and balance still exists today, with the millions of memorisers scattered on all parts of the planet. Thus if there are printing mistakes or deliberate attempts to distort the Qur'an, it is easily identified and rectified. And it has been so for 14 centuries.

The second book, or collection of books, is called Hadith which is the sayings of Muhammad (PBUH), not the direct word of Allah. Significant parts of it has been and is still being distorted. The recording of Hadith began on the 10th century and immeasurable caution was taken at the time of recording so that any Hadith with the slightest of controversies or doubt were discarded.From then on, even till today, Hadith is constantly being reviewed by scholars and it has been classified into 2 categories--- one is the most authentic and undisputed, and the other one which have weak doubts. All major beliefs and customs of muslims such as 5 times prayer, prohibition of interest and extramarital and premarital physical relationships,,etc. are based on 100% authentic Hadiths.

The second category Hadiths constitute comparatively less important and sometimes optional customs and beliefs such as ways of praying, size of beards, ways of dressing up,etc.So even if these Hadiths are distorted, it doesn't have any major affect on the life of muslims. 

So, we can conclude that when such an extensive,comprehensive and incomprehendible measure has been taken and effort of mammoth scale has been given to preserve the authenticity of the sayings of Muhammad (PBUH), there is realistically no scope for a major blunder. Therefore, Muhammad's(PBUH) authentic biography and sayings do exist.

   3.  That he didn't tell  a single lie

    Muhammad (PBUH) was given the title " al-amin" (the trustworthy)when he was pretty young by his fellow tribesmen. This is because they were awe-struck by his honesty and truthfulness at a time when the whole Arabia was indulged in corrupt practices and it was called "the age of ignorance".Until his death, even his staunchest enemies failed to prove him a liar.That is prrecisely the reason Islam spread like bushfre across regions,from Asia to Africa and even Europe (unfortunately, north america was not yet discovered).The biggest example of Muhammad's(Pbuh) trustworthiness is the story of his uncle, Abu Taleb who declined to accept islam and died as a non-muslim because he feared he would lose his esteem among his tribe if he accepts islam but ironically said that Muhammad( Pbuh) never lies. 

Another serious point is that human beings are naturally inclined to always speak the truth.One only tells a lie to serve a purpose.Without a purpose (fun is also a purpose) no one will lie.So if Muhammad(Pbuh) lied that he was a messenger of Allah, then why?He wanted to build an empire that would ensure his immortalily?No.Because he didn't built luxurious castles, he often wore rugged clothes,he didn't drink alcohol, he often didn't have enough money to feed his family and starved, he lived a poor man's life when he had thousands of his followers at his beck and call.These things are contradictory.A person with an ambition to enjoy his life and having lust for power won't lead, in fact by human nature cannot live, a life of such hardship and obstacles.Also,lying,lust for power, money and sex etc.--- these things are woven together.If one catches one of these vices, he/she instinctively falls in the trap.So, Muhammad(Pbuh) is not a liar and there is no instance that he had lied.

Therefore, the conclusion all the truth seekers shall come to is that Muhammad(Pbuh) is not a liar, and so when he tells that he is the messenger of Allah,that Islam is compulsory for each and every human being from the time he announced his prophethood to the Day of Resuurrection,and that those who disobey Allah will be punished,we ought to believe it.

If I offend anyone's feelings by the above words, I am extremely sorry for that and I beg forgiveness. Thank you all for reading.

air_one wrote: If Muhammad (SAW) never lied shouldnt we believe in everything he said?

I am not saying that you should not believe him (or anyone for that matter) I just don't believe it is the reason to follow and be involved in a religion, any religion.

What ever Allah has said throught his favirout messenger Muhammed (saw) goes.  Dont question your religion, islam.  Aren't you question Allah then as well? 

I think we need to get rid of the word favirout = favourite.

ysimjee wrote: Dont question your religion, islam.

That is not what is happening.

Personally i believe in questioning its a way of understanding

Aren't you question Allah then as well?

No. 

but then again i believe in questioning  its a way to understand ways of God, like why the sky is blue and why the stars twinkle at night, why the sunlight is vital to our health 

Re-read what is happening  The orginal poster pointed out why you should believe in islam, and I just pointed out that is not a reason to

All cool .  As it is i'm still learning about islam, try to read as much as possible n give my 2c where i think i can....

But i do believe islam is the one and true religion.  Its so amazing when you read the Quran and you find the answers to questions that some priest's cant answer...

Hi ysimjee, that's cool, no worries  

just to let you know I am non muslim.

 Assalamualikum.

To Y Simjeee, if you don't question your religion, how will you know that it is the right one? Don't consider yourself lucky just because you were born in a muslim family. What if you weren't? How would you have known then that islam is the right religion? By questioning. Don't jump to a conclusion without verifying and analyzing. You should follow islam because the truth is islam, not the other way round.

To Angel, you have not carefully read my topic. Your answer lies very well and clearly in my topic. Thank you for disagreeing. It implies you are trying to search the truth.

Assalamualikum.

I was born into a christian family, not a muslim.

After only 8 months my parents started to realise that i'm a muslim and that i'm not going to chance.  I make shukar that a least my father ask questions, but unfortunetly the only questions are compairing islam with christianity.

Its all good to ask about a religion, but do it to understand it.  Some people ask why must i do this and why must i do that. 

Whatever is done islamicly is to please Allah

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Its good to question to learn about something but i think important thing is your intention. I remember reading about the ayah of The Holy Quran which mentions that disbelievers would say to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that they did not worship anyothers beside him, that a sahabi (ra) came to ibn abbas (ra) and asked him, so what about ayah which says that no one can lie or hide infront of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and will speak of their shirk themselves. First thing Ibn abbas (ra) asked him was, are you doubting word of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Sahabi replied, NO, astaghfirullah i am just asking to have a better understanding and to get things made more clear for me. Hearing this Ibn abbas said, yes disbeliever would lie but then Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala would put a seal on his speech and then make every part of his body witness for his action and that how no one can lie on that day.

That is for muslims and even for non-muslims you have a better chance of finding truth if there is no prejudice. For anything not just religious matter, thats why i think modern times have bad intention cos you go into something with a null theory  then you prove it other way.

Hi angel, i dint really get what you mean cos if you believe that there was a man who never lied about worldly matters, why would you not incline towards believing him when he talks about divine matters?

wassalam

Assalamualikum.

I am extremely sorry for offending Ysimjee. I should not have jumped to the conclusion that he was born in a muslim family. I beg forgiveness.

Fatima is right. You can't question the laws of islam just for the sake of it. But the problem is, if Muhammad( Pbuh) would have been alive now, anyone could have gone up to him and get a clear verdict. There would not have been any doubt in anyone's mind. Since it has been 1400 years after his death and many munafiqs have tried to distort his hadith, we now need to question the source and validity of the hadiths before acccepting it blindly. Alhamdulillah, there are many scholars in the muslim world who are doing this for whole ummah. May Allah bless them.

One more thing, I am really surprised that so far no strong argument has been placed against the simplest reason to believe in islam.

May Allah show the right path to all.

fatima wrote: Hi angel, i dint really get what you mean cos if you believe that there was a man who never lied about worldly matters, why would you not incline towards believing him when he talks about divine matters? wassalam

because even occult leaders (and I am not talking about islam or muhammad here) supposed to tell the truth, never lie, and talk about divine matters to their followers [who by the way have been brainwashed]. To the followers the leaders are worldly and knowledgable to.

Without divine matters, also in general (not sure if anyone can claim this) those who do not lie, it still is no reason to follow anything  It's not about doubting, I just don't believe it is the (a) reason to follow. We all believe in our parents to tell the truth but do we all follow in what they say and do always ? Is it a reason to follow because our parents don't lie ? For many the first religious teachings which includes divine matters, comes from parents  until religious school.

But my main issue for following a religion and divine matters is what I mentioned above about occult leaders.

hope this explains  if not i'll try again

my one big question is this, k with prophet muhammed (pbuh). i do understand he has never lied and he was the last prohpet. then why in the christian faith, is jesus revield as god! he is known as the son of man, but mostly all songs and most prayers go to him 1st! so in the muslim culture, do we belive him to be the son of god and give him praise? or do we praise muhammed (pbuh)? or do we praise god/allah?

thank u

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Assalamu alaikum Its good to question to learn about something but i think important thing is your intention. I remember reading about the ayah of The Holy Quran which mentions that disbelievers would say to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that they did not worship anyothers beside him, that a sahabi (ra) came to ibn abbas (ra) and asked him, so what about ayah which says that no one can lie or hide infront of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and will speak of their shirk themselves. First thing Ibn abbas (ra) asked him was, are you doubting word of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Sahabi replied, NO, astaghfirullah i am just asking to have a better understanding and to get things made more clear for me. Hearing this Ibn abbas said, yes disbeliever would lie but then Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala would put a seal on his speech and then make every part of his body witness for his action and that how no one can lie on that day. That is for muslims and even for non-muslims you have a better chance of finding truth if there is no prejudice. For anything not just religious matter, thats why i think modern times have bad intention cos you go into something with a null theory  then you prove it other way. Hi angel, i dint really get what you mean cos if you believe that there was a man who never lied about worldly matters, why would you not incline towards believing him when he talks about divine matters? wassalam

Assalam Aleikum Sr, and to all. I have wanted to make some friendly comments about the orignial post, but have not had the time to do so. Your question will allow me, however, to make a brief point that is part of the issue I wanted to bring up originally.

Although a person may never lie, this doe not mean that the non-lie was factual. In other words, the original point tries to use a concept the Christian writer CS Lewis used, who stated that Jesus was either a lunatic, a liar, or the Son of Gd (that sounds so good! See you all at church! ). This forces a "false trichotomy" where we are forced into having only three choices, two of which are absurd, and one being the belief of Christians. Indeed, there are other choices.

I do not think it is a good idea to try and reduce Islam to such semantics and word play. Thats just my opinion of course.

Look at this statement: If he (saw) did not lie, and he (saw) said he was the last messenger of Gd, then he must be the last messenger of Gd. The problem is that it is possible to not be a liar, but to be mistaken.

Of course I believe he (saw) was the last messenger, and the prophet of Gd, but I have this belief based upon confidence.

jazakallahu khair  

Assalamualikum. Finally Angel comes up with a strong argument. I believe his relentless search for truth will take him (and myself  in the process) to the right port inshallah.

[/QUOTE]

because even occult leaders (and I am not talking about islam or muhammad here) supposed to tell the truth, never lie, and talk about divine matters to their followers [who by the way have been brainwashed]. To the followers the leaders are worldly and knowledgable to.

Without divine matters, also in general (not sure if anyone can claim this) those who do not lie, it still is no reason to follow anything  It's not about doubting, I just don't believe it is the (a) reason to follow. We all believe in our parents to tell the truth but do we all follow in what they say and do always ? Is it a reason to follow because our parents don't lie ? For many the first religious teachings which includes divine matters, comes from parents  until religious school.

But my main issue for following a religion and divine matters is what I mentioned above about occult leaders.

[/QUOTE]

 Yes, it should not be the only reason to believe, but the primary reason. If Muhammad (Pbuh) would not have lived his         &nb sp;       pre-prophethood life so honestly, he might have not been able to convince a significant number of people to believe in himself.

Secondly, it's not clear which occult leaders you are talking about and why Muhammad(Pbuh) is not an occult leader. 

If Muhammad(Pbuh) was not a liar and he didn't have the lust for an empire and if he wanted to make unethical people change to ethical life for making a better society , he would not have brainwashed people with false magics just to gain their trust. No seeker and advocate of truth will adopt deceitful means to establish the truth. No man with truly noble motives will ever employ dirty tricks to preach the truth. Socrates was requested by his followers to escape the prison cell and go to another land so that he could continue his invaluable teachings. But Socrates said that he couldn't disrespect the law of the country, however unethical it might have been, because it goes against his own teachings. By drinking the hemlock poison, he established that truth seekers would rather sacifice their lives but won't resort to deceit to establish the truth.The fact that Muhammad(Pbuh) did resort to some supernatural things and at the same time he was not a liar and that he did not use it for his personal gains only proves those things were indeed what he said--the deeds of Allah to prove that he is the messenger. Those were not deceits. 

Thirdly, no concrete argument has been placed as yet against the scientific revelations of the Qur'an. How could a man know about things which scientists have discovered in the 20th century? I don't feel the need to quote the verses, because you can find them in the islam and sciences section, or indeed in many other sites. I believe you have already come across those. When so many things such as these and more come in one package, in one mould,islam, it is, for me at least, impossible to deny.

May Allah bless all.

Andalus,

for what could he be mistaken?

Ghazzali wrote: Andalus, for what could he be mistaken?

The point was not that he was mistaken on any particular thing, The point was that your original argument is a false dichotomy. In other words, he may not have been a liar, but not being a liar does not mean that the claim is factually true.

If we use logic to prove something, then the argument is also open to logical criticism. For most Muslims, your argument works, but for non-Muslims, it could present problems.

I believe he was a prophet (saw) based upon "confidence".

I have many witnesses who saw him prove his prophethood, and they have their accounts in the ahadith.

Assalam Aleikum!

Assalaamualaikum all,

Brother Andalus has a good point.

not being a liar does not mean that the claim is factually true. (with reference to nonmuslims..)

Jazakallahkhair brother Ghazzali for your original post. Many people are convinced with "logic". It all basically zereos down to "faith".  ...guidance is upto Allah alone. There are people who have read and understood the quran, believe that Muhammad (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) was a truthful man, but they still do not accept islam. why??

wassalam

Ghazzali wrote: Assalamualikum. Finally Angel comes up with a strong argument. I believe his relentless search for truth will take him (and myself  in the process) to the right port inshallah.

and, I'm a her

Yes, it should not be the only reason to believe, but the primary reason.

Andulas gave a good point in his second post.

And actually it should not be the primary reason either  

Secondly, it's not clear which occult leaders you are talking about and why Muhammad(Pbuh) is not an occult leader.

I was talking about in general so i don't have which, i don't go searching for them . But you do pose a very good point thou. The same can be said about Jesus and other Prophets. To explain myself what i see in difference would not be good as it is scratchy to explain. It's a fine line and a distinct difference for me that's all i will say.  

Let's stay on topic that you brought up ok  much easier

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Sorry was away for couple of days so late reply and jazakAllah khair to brother Ghazzali cos he has half explained my point.

Coming to brther andalus's point, we have to take things as how naturaly they come to humans. Now you made a point and jazakAllah for keeping it polite but even though if it was bit harsh, me or any1 who knows bit about you would have looked into the matter with seriousness. My experience tells me that Alhamdulillahe mashaAllah you got knowledge of deen so if our views are contradictory then why so. I would look at both yours and my views critically, then if i am a honest seeker of truth then follow whats right rather than being stubborn.

When i asked angel i tried to be careful with the word and said incline towards believing him (sallallahu alaihe wassalam). It is human tendency to listen to and pay more attention to an honest, upright man rather than a person known otherwise. If you know about a person's character after listening to him/her, then you try to find out the truth in what they said. That is why i think his character and being sadaq alamin is very important. Not the only factor but a major factor.

I think the next logical step would be to look into what he (sallallahu alaihe wassalam) broght and Ja'far bin abi talib (ra) summed it beautifuly in the court of abyssinian king, He said, "O king! we were plunged in the depth of ignorance and barbarism; we adored idols, we lived in unchastity, we ate the dead bodies, and we spoke abominations, we disregarded every feeling of humanity, and the duties of hospitality and neighbourhood were neglected; we knew no law but that of the strong, when All�h raised among us a man, of whose birth, truthfulness, honesty, and purity we were aware; and he called to the Oneness of All�h, and taught us not to associate anything with Him. He forbade us the worship of idols; and he enjoined us to speak the truth, to be faithful to our trusts, to be merciful and to regard the rights of the neighbours and kith and kin; he forbade us to speak evil of women, or to eat the substance of orphans; he ordered us to fly from the vices, and to abstain from evil; to offer prayers, to render alms, and to observe fast. We have believed in him, we have accepted his teachings and his injunctions to worship All�h, and not to associate anything with Him, and we have allowed what He has allowed, and prohibited what He has prohibited. For this reason, our people have risen against us, have persecuted us in order to make us forsake the worship of All�h and return to the worship of idols and other abominations. They have tortured and injured us, until finding no safety among them, we have come to your country, and hope you will protect us from oppression."

Now angel's point of being a leader, i think brother Ghazzali has explained it good. There was no attempt from Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam to become a leader. Infact he was offered to giveup his preaching in exchange for kingship and he refused. He sallallahu alaihe wassalam was persicuted for 10 years and never gaveup. Another significant thing that happened was on death of his son ibrahim (ra), sun eclipsed. There was this myth in arab world that sun eclipses on death of great men so many people embraced islam seeing that. But Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam told people that it is the wrong belief and these are just signs of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. A person wanting leadership would have relished on chances like this but not him, because he was there to enjoin the good and forbid evil.

Last and most important reason a muslim could bring up is Quran alkarim. I heard a brother once who said that before coming to islam he was handed a copy of Quran alkarim. He dint know what it was and he was on a long bus trip so during that time he got bored and opened Quran alkarim and started reading it. The first thing that took his attention was, Alif laam miim, this is a book in which there is no doubt. He said i tried to find out who wrote it by flipping front and back pages but couldn't but this lines made me read it. And then he goes i finished it and knew within myself how right this first line really is. So subhanAllah but end of the day it is faith and belief, if some1 dont want to follow it they will find hundered and millions of reasons of not to.

wassalam  

I wanted to thank you all for this post.  I found this discussion enlightening.

I'm sorry I don't have anything to contribute to the discussion other than to again thank you.

~Many blessings.

Assalamualikum and sorry for being away for sometime. It seems the discussion is taking shape.

Andalus wrote:

 I have many witnesses who saw him prove his prophethood, and they have their accounts in the ahadith.

How can you be sure they were not disillusioned? In Bangladesh, we have some fraud money-makers here who claim they have a direct relationship with Allah and perform some illusions and guess what, the illiterate people here accept them and offer them money! It's the same in India and Pakistan. You go to India and you will find literally millions of people following the words of fraud religious leaders. May be you'll find Christ reborn or some Muhammad claiming prophethood till date. So just sheer number of followers is not a reliable scale to measure the validity of Muhammad(pbuh).

Again you wrote:

 The point was that your original argument is a false dichotomy. In other words, he may not have been a liar, but not being a liar does not mean that the claim is factually true.

No, sorry, it is not a false dichotomy. Muhammad(pbuh) claimed prophethood and there can be no doubt about that. So, at least on this matter,he was right or he was wrong. It is simple as that. What CS Lewis said was a different thing. He did not mention the main possibility, that Jesus was a prophet. So that was flawed. Look, the sun is there, or not. If it is an optical illusion it is not there. It is very simple. There is no middle path here. That's how crude truth is sometimes.

Now on the second point, yes, there could be a factual error or, Muhammad(pbuh) may have been disillusioned himself. But in this case, how could you factually prove whether he had received words from Allah or not since no one else was able to. Science does not deal with this things. Science deals with matter and anti-matter, not with ethics or morality and science have been forced to stay away from these. We have to rely on the actions that Muhammad(pbuh) did to verify his claim.This is precisely what I am trying to say.Why would a man with unbelievable nobility as Muhammad(pbuh) want to make people believe on a fact he is not sure about(considering his claim of prophethood may have been a factual error)?.Didn't he know the implications? And I have proved what his intentions were. Please explain elaborately on your original point.

Now, on the possibility that he might have been disillusioned himself, I have to take some time to think on the matter before answering.

I apologize if I have failed to get your point and sound a bit nonchalant. I am trying my best to understand the arguments.

May Allah bless all. 

Ghazzali wrote: Therefore, the conclusion all the truth seekers shall come to is that Muhammad(Pbuh) is not a liar, and so when he tells that he is the messenger of Allah,that Islam is compulsory for each and every human being from the time he announced his prophethood to the Day of Resuurrection,and that those who disobey Allah will be punished,we ought to believe it.

I have bad news for you.

Please read the following words that prophet Mohammad RECITED saying that they came from his god.

1. [16.51] And Allah has said: Take not two gods, He is only one God; so of Me alone should you be afraid.

Now pl. read the following one:

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God;

==================================================

How is it possible for a truthful prophet to say two different things about one point?

Either it is two gods or three gods.  Which is the truthful one?

Like someone suggested, let us apply the criteria to prophetr Jesus Christ.

Let me show you from the Quran what Allah says about Jesus.

Here it is:

[2.253] We (Allah) have made some of these apostles to excel the others among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa son of Marium, and strengthened him with the holy spirit.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

May I humbly say that the god of Islam has HONORED prophet Jesus Christ more highly than prophet Mohammad.

Allah never EXALTED prophet Mohammad with CLEAR miracles.  Allah never strenthened prophet Mohammad with the power of the Holy Spirit.

I just can't undrstand why Muslims do not EXALT prophet Jesus Christ to a higher level than prophet Mohammad, when the Allah of prophet Mohammad very clearly says that he himself exalted prophet Jeasus Christ to a HIGHER LEVEL than that of prophet Mohammad.

Any ideas?

harrdnut wrote: [QUOTE=Ghazzali] ... Islam is compulsory for each and every human being from the time he announced his prophethood to the Day of Resuurrection,and that those who disobey Allah will be punished,we ought to believe it.

If prophet Mohammad said that Islam is COMPULSORY, then how come he said these words below:

[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion;

harrdnut wrote: harrdnut wrote: [QUOTE=Ghazzali] ... Islam is compulsory for each and every human being from the time he announced his prophethood to the Day of Resuurrection,and that those who disobey Allah will be punished,we ought to believe it. If prophet Mohammad said that Islam is COMPULSORY, then how come he said these words below: [2.256] There is no compulsion in religion;

Be aware that this person is a possible INTERNET TROLL and do a search on his posts before replying!

Ghazzali wrote: Assalamualikum and sorry for being away for sometime. It seems the discussion is taking shape. Andalus wrote:  I have many witnesses who saw him prove his prophethood, and they have their accounts in the ahadith. How can you be sure they were not disillusioned? In Bangladesh, we have some fraud money-makers here who claim they have a direct relationship with Allah and perform some illusions and guess what, the illiterate people here accept them and offer them money! It's the same in India and Pakistan. You go to India and you will find literally millions of people following the words of fraud religious leaders. May be you'll find Christ reborn or some Muhammad claiming prophethood till date. So just sheer number of followers is not a reliable scale to measure the validity of Muhammad(pbuh).

My confidence is not in sheer numbers alone. My belief rests in confidence. which rests on witnesses who experienced the prophethood, not just heard his claim and was dazzled by parlor tricks. 

Can you tell me how you differentiate between the fakes in Bangledesh vs a true Prophet? The difference is that a prophet can perform mujizas, a fraud cannot, and there is a difference. Performing a mujizah is not the only criteria for proof of prophethood, and I have not implied this either. Being of honest character, beyond the nomral notions of honest is one more chracteristic of proof of prophethood, but not the only characteristics.

This is a brief discussion on mujiza.

  http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7680&PN=1&TPN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7680& ;PN=1&TPN=1

Again you wrote:  The point was that your original argument is a false dichotomy. In other words, he may not have been a liar, but not being a liar does not mean that the claim is factually true. No, sorry, it is not a false dichotomy. Muhammad(pbuh) claimed prophethood and there can be no doubt about that. So, at least on this matter,he was right or he was wrong. It is simple as that.

Perhaps a demonstration will suffice.

I have a firend here, his name is Moshe. I will interview him and put to him the foundation of your thesis.

Moshe: Greetings.

andalus: So Mooshe, do you accept Muhammad (saw) as a prophet?

Moshe: No

andalus: Do you think he was a liar? Afterall he claimed he was a prophet?

Moshe: No, I do not think he was lying. But I do not think he was a prophet.

andalus: He was either a prophet or lying, you said that he was not lying, then he must be a prophet? Weclome to Islam Moshe!

Moshe: Hang on Andalus, there are more than two choices. He could have claimed to be a prophet, and not be a liar, and yet still not be a prophet. Logically, there are more than two choices.

andalus: I see your point Moshe.  

What CS Lewis said was a different thing. He did not mention the main possibility, that Jesus was a prophet. So that was flawed. Look, the sun is there, or not. If it is an optical illusion it is not there. It is very simple. There is no middle path here. That's how crude truth is sometimes.

First let me bring up what the trilemma is of CS Lewis: Jesus was either the Son of Gd, a Liar, or a Lunatic.

The fact that the option of prophet is not brought up as a choice is irrelevant in this matter because we are examing the logic involved, not the nuances, or the particualr details of what is being claimed. CS leiws created a false dichotomy, or (false trichotomy) because he is forcing three choices, while there are indeed more than three.

You are offering two choice, either a man is a liar, or a prophet. If he is telling the truth, then he is a prophet. Since you are using logical deduction to try and create a statement of belief, you must understand that it is left open to logical criticism.

The fact is, a man can claim to be a prophet, be honest, and still not be a prophet.

In the case of Prophet Muhammad (saw), his having an outstanding honest character is one of the criteria fulfilled such that he his considered a prophet, but it is not the only one.

. Now on the second point, yes, there could be a factual error or, Muhammad(pbuh) may have been disillusioned himself.

There is the case that he was mistaken, a case that I did think of before I converted. One may be mistaken and still honest.

But in this case, how could you factually prove whether he had received words from Allah or not since no one else was able to.

This is not about recieving revelation. It is soley about a claim. The ability to make a mujiza contains the act of recieving revelation (if I am not mistaken), recieving a revelation is part of the criteria to be a prophet.

The act of a mujizah, and his charatcer, are part of the total critteria.

Proving anything is limited by the nature of the thing one wishes to prove. Much of history which is taught as fact cannot be proven. In Islam, our scholars will ask for proof when someone makes a claim, and for validation about an event.

I have the Quran in front of me to read and judge, and I have the testomony of witnesses who were there during the time of revelation, and the testimony of the Prophet (saw), and who witnessed and experienced his "mujizas".

I have "confidence" that these things occured.

Science does not deal with this things. Science deals with matter and anti-matter, not with ethics or morality and science have been forced to stay away from these.

Science is also limited, and provides working models to explain things, which gives us confidence. Based upon inductive reasoning, science will always be limited. The nature of science has nothing to do with morality, or ethics. It has to stay away due to its very nature.

We have to rely on the actions that Muhammad(pbuh) did to verify his claim.This is precisely what I am trying to say.Why would a man with unbelievable nobility as Muhammad(pbuh) want to make people believe on a fact he is not sure about(considering his claim of prophethood may have been a factual error)?.Didn't he know the implications? And I have proved what his intentions were. Please explain elaborately on your original point.

Actions to not prove prophethood. I am not sure how I can say in any different terms than your thesis is a false dichotomy.

We know his actions through eyewitness accounts. If your confidence in his signs are lowered due to frauds in Bangledesh, and if you believe that anyone can recreate the mujizas of Prophet Muhammad (saw), then how much less would be involved to convince you of their honest, and up right character?

Keep in mind Brother, his character is only a part of the total criteria used to confirm his prophethood. The ability to know about his character is based upon the same observations given to us from the same people concerning his signs.

Now, on the possibility that he might have been disillusioned himself, I have to take some time to think on the matter before answering. I apologize if I have failed to get your point and sound a bit nonchalant. I am trying my best to understand the arguments. May Allah bless all.

Brother, it is not neccesary for you to apologize. We are all learning here. I am a convert, and asked the very questions that you brought up in your original argument. That's the only reason why I commented. That line of thinking was not enough to stir me into conversion. It is pleasing to see a well written reply, which is a sign of intellectual honesty. Disagreeing is ok, there is not sin in that!

Assalam Aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

Assalamualikum.I was away for some time so sorry for that.It's precisely the kind of response i was wanting--elaborate.Thanks brother.By the way, my beautiful country's name is BANGLADESH, not BanglEdesh.

Let me first put the point that he was not disillusioned. If he would have been, he would have done some silly deeds that would have made him a mad man infront of his followers. It is difficult to believe that a man is disillusioned or hallucinnated and starts doing good works and starts conquering a whole region!!All the while not doing any ridiculous thing that would make him appear as a mad man.People who are disillusioned or hallucinnated generally starts doing meaningless things or behave in a weird way. Muhammad(pbuh) does not fall into that category. So it is not plausible to infer that he was disillusioned.

Well, Andalus my topic was the simplest reason to believe in islam, not the only one.So i agree with u that there r other strong points in favour of Muhammad(pbuh)'s prophethood. But brother, my thirst for knowledge is pressing me continue the dialogue between moshe and andalus(the style used by beloved Plato in Republic):

Moshe: Logically, there are more than two choices.

andalus:What are those? Tell me all the possibilities.

May Allah bless all.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

From what i can get from previous posts is we all agree that Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam's noble character was one of the factors. But what i cant get and by this simply cannot understand it (pour my brains out but still cant) is this whole doctrine. Please have bit of patience with me (might have less brain capacity) and if you could explain cos i want to understand this.

Ok for me if a person is known to be truthful and trustworthy and he says something as big as being a Prophet. I can only think of three things, either he is telling the truth, or he thinks he is telling the truth or he is a liar. To investigate all of them you have to look at the evidence he brings which proves him truthful or otherwise. let me look at the negating factors first because thats how human mind is 'what if he is not'.   If a person claims to be Prophet and he is mistaken in that while Prophethood involves revelation. Then that means if he thinks he is experiencing the revelation then either he is, or he is deluded. In the case of delusion, either he is mad person who is seeing things or it could be from shaytan. In both cases what he teaches in not going to be of great benefit to the people. He would not be able to bring a sound proof of what he is saying which offcourse is mu'jizaat.

We know that quraish looked at all of these and they knew perfectly well that Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam was neither lying nor was he a mad man. And i think the conversation that abu jahal had with one of his fellow arab is a classic example.  In which abu jahal said that they competed with Prophet's family in everything, providing food and all other things for hujjaj, leadership and all the rest and now they say that they have a Messenger in our family, How can we compete with that?

But if a person satisfy all these criterions then still their be people who wont believe in the message because of thinking too high of themselves and self sufficient.

Now those are the only possibilities for me, so brother andalus where am i going wrong in the world of critical thinking? (and this is not point of arguement, i genuinely dont get it )

wassalam

Ghazzali wrote: Let me first put the point that he was not disillusioned. If he would have been, he would have done some silly deeds that would have made him a mad man infront of his followers. It is difficult to believe that a man is disillusioned or hallucinnated and starts doing good works and starts conquering a whole region!!

Assalam Alekium dear Br.

1) being mistaken does not imply being being dusillusioned. one does not necessarily mean the other

2) being mistaken does not imply having hallucinations

All the while not doing any ridiculous thing that would make him appear as a mad man.People who are disillusioned or hallucinnated generally starts doing meaningless things or behave in a weird way. Muhammad(pbuh) does not fall into that category. So it is not plausible to infer that he was disillusioned.

And a mistake does not necessarily infer such things

I have been mistaken on many different things, but I was neither crazy, psychotic, nor was I hallucinating.

Well, Andalus my topic was the simplest reason to believe in islam, not the only one.So i agree with u that there r other strong points in favour of Muhammad(pbuh)'s prophethood. But brother, my thirst for knowledge is pressing me continue the dialogue between moshe and andalus(the style used by beloved Plato in Republic): Moshe: Logically, there are more than two choices. andalus:What are those? Tell me all the possibilities. May Allah bless all.

moshe: let me explore the possibility that he was mistaken a bit more since this does not necessarily mean he was crazy or had mental problems.

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Assalamu alaikum From what i can get from previous posts is we all agree that Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam's noble character was one of the factors. But what i cant get and by this simply cannot understand it (pour my brains out but still cant) is this whole doctrine. Please have bit of patience with me (might have less brain capacity) and if you could explain cos i want to understand this. Ok for me if a person is known to be truthful and trustworthy and he says something as big as being a Prophet. I can only think of three things, either he is telling the truth, or he thinks he is telling the truth or he is a liar. To investigate all of them you have to look at the evidence he brings which proves him truthful or otherwise. let me look at the negating factors first because thats how human mind is 'what if he is not'.   If a person claims to be Prophet and he is mistaken in that while Prophethood involves revelation. Then that means if he thinks he is experiencing the revelation then either he is, or he is deluded. In the case of delusion, either he is mad person who is seeing things or it could be from shaytan. In both cases what he teaches in not going to be of great benefit to the people. He would not be able to bring a sound proof of what he is saying which offcourse is mu'jizaat.

Assalam Aleikum Sr. Forgive me if my tired mind (finals, clinicals, projects, etce, etc) has made a mistake in understanding your contribution.

For a person to be a prophet, he should necessarily be noble in character which includes being honest. Any hint of immoral deception would cast doubt on the message brought forth, and Allah would not allow such a character to teach His message.

A revelation might be a mujiza if it did something which no other ordinary human could do at will. A mujizah is a major indicator of prophethood, but is one more indicator, or characteristic of prophethood, as is an honest character is another characteristic.

People have made claims of experiencing the divine throughout the ages. Visions, feelings, energized emotions......Someone could believe that they did have a moving, spirtual experience, and still be mistaken.

I would say that the Quran is an aspect which confirms the claim of Prophet Muhammad's (saw) prophethood. Keep in mind that we know about his honesty from first hand witnesses. If he had been a liar, his mission would have failed.

We know that quraish looked at all of these and they knew perfectly well that Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam was neither lying nor was he a mad man. And i think the conversation that abu jahal had with one of his fellow arab is a classic example.  In which abu jahal said that they competed with Prophet's family in everything, providing food and all other things for hujjaj, leadership and all the rest and now they say that they have a Messenger in our family, How can we compete with that? But if a person satisfy all these criterions then still their be people who wont believe in the message because of thinking too high of themselves and self sufficient. Now those are the only possibilities for me, so brother andalus where am i going wrong in the world of critical thinking? (and this is not point of arguement, i genuinely dont get it ) wassalam

I do not think you are wrong!

I think that the life of the prophet (saw) and all of it's claims rests with different major pieces that all come together, and put forth an entire picture that proves Islam's claims. The deeper you go into the pieces provides harder evidence. Some have to look at more pieces than others.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Wa'alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuhu

Hope brother Ghazzali don't mind me jumping in about the point he is discussing. Brother andalus said, 'I have been mistaken on many different things, but I was neither crazy, psychotic, nor was I hallucinating'. Yeah you are right but extent of common person's proclamation is not as much as a Prophet. Few hundered or even more people have said that they have seen UFOs, it could be called anything but hallucination or being crazy. Same way there are other things in life which you could get mistaken about without being crazy. But Prophethood involves revelation and contact with Angels alyhimus salaam. If a person claims to be experiencing that and you want to take out the possibility of him being true Prophet, what other option have we got than him deceiving people or hallucinating and being mad man?

wassalam

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Wa'alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuhu Hope brother Ghazzali don't mind me jumping in about the point he is discussing. Brother andalus said, 'I have been mistaken on many different things, but I was neither crazy, psychotic, nor was I hallucinating'. Yeah you are right but extent of common person's proclamation is not as much as a Prophet. Few hundered or even more people have said that they have seen UFOs, it could be called anything but hallucination or being crazy. Same way there are other things in life which you could get mistaken about without being crazy. But Prophethood involves revelation and contact with Angels alyhimus salaam. If a person claims to be experiencing that and you want to take out the possibility of him being true Prophet, what other option have we got than him deceiving people or hallucinating and being mad man? wassalam

Seeing an angel does not necessarily make you a prophet.

Receiving revelation does not necessarily make you a prophet.

Mariam saw angels and recived revelation. Mariam was not a prophet.

Assalam aleikum

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Wa'alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuhu

SubhanAllah, MashaAllah a very good point, never thought about that. Hope you can take some more time out of your busy schedule because mashaAllah this is getting very informative for me and i hope for many other people who might be looking into islam from outside.

So for a person who is looking at a claim of Prophethood, what is his next step. Teachings of the Prophet? or the actual revelation material? (in our case offcourse Holy Quran) I am asking this because there were thousands of Prophets alyhimus salaam who were never given no book.

Wassalam

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Wa'alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuhu SubhanAllah, MashaAllah a very good point, never thought about that. Hope you can take some more time out of your busy schedule because mashaAllah this is getting very informative for me and i hope for many other people who might be looking into islam from outside. So for a person who is looking at a claim of Prophethood, what is his next step. Teachings of the Prophet? or the actual revelation material? (in our case offcourse Holy Quran) I am asking this because there were thousands of Prophets alyhimus salaam who were never given no book. Wassalam

Assalam Aleikum Sr.

Indeed this is a very interesting topic, and I will, insha'Allah contribute more after finals!

Ghazzali wrote: Assalamualikum. Well I don't know when Andalus's finals will be over, so I am still waiting for his response. But isn't there anyone else who can come up with other possibilities as to what Muhammad(pbuh) could have been, apart from what has already been discussed?

Assalam Aleikum.

My finals are over, but I have had more important matters to deal with.

So what more do you want than "he was mistaken"?

I do not have to list all of the possibilties, only one other than the two you offered to make my point.

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Wa'alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahe wa barakatuhu SubhanAllah, MashaAllah a very good point, never thought about that. Hope you can take some more time out of your busy schedule because mashaAllah this is getting very informative for me and i hope for many other people who might be looking into islam from outside. So for a person who is looking at a claim of Prophethood, what is his next step. Teachings of the Prophet? or the actual revelation material? (in our case offcourse Holy Quran) I am asking this because there were thousands of Prophets alyhimus salaam who were never given no book. Wassalam

We look at the culmination of their life and their works.

1) The teaching. What mesage did they teach. Is it in line with what the other prophets said.

2) mujiza: Were they given the power to perform miracles? If so, was it a mujizah? Was the mujiza having knoweldge such that there was no earthly way they could have obtained it, with a simply plausable explanation?

3) character. Were they just good people, or was their character out of the ordinary.

4) if the person has long been dead, then do we have first hand accounts with unbreakable chains of narration that act as a witness to the person and their claim, and their message?

These are a few general guidlines that I have pulled from sources I have looked at over the years.

Assalamualikum Andalus. Sorry to disturb you. Thanks a lot for having the time to answer my queries.

Well, I have reviewed all the posts in this topic right now and there is still one thing I am confused about, that Muhammad(pbuh) was mistaken as a prophet.

Why could he be mistaken? Are you saying that you believe something is true and yet you fear you could be mistaken? Well then you could be mistaken that you are mistaken.Look, these paradoxes lead us to nowhere. If you doubt whether you are doubting, then you are entering a different league my friend, where the existence of truth is questioned, and the human mind crosses its limits.I'm sorry, I am not in that league.

And if you aren't in that league, then please elaborate on how or why or for what he could be mistaken.Thank you.

Ghazzali wrote: Assalamualikum Andalus. Sorry to disturb you. Thanks a lot for having the time to answer my queries. Well, I have reviewed all the posts in this topic right now and there is still one thing I am confused about, that Muhammad(pbuh) was mistaken as a prophet. Why could he be mistaken? Are you saying that you believe something is true and yet you fear you could be mistaken? Well then you could be mistaken that you are mistaken.Look, these paradoxes lead us to nowhere. If you doubt whether you are doubting, then you are entering a different league my friend, where the existence of truth is questioned, and the human mind crosses its limits.I'm sorry, I am not in that league. And if you aren't in that league, then please elaborate on how or why or for what he could be mistaken.Thank you.

Assalam Aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu

I stated that your argument was not limited by only two choices, as it makes the assumption that he was not mistaken (a third choice could have been that he was mistaken).

My acceptance of his claim of prophethood is not just based solely upon his claim (a single claim), but upon the summation of his life and the results of his life and the proofs of this claim. "I am a prophet" is a claim. He may be a very truthful man, but this does not verify his claim.

Because I have first hand witnesses and their accounts I am able to investigate his claim, and the message he brought. This has never been possible with the claims of other prophets. Al hamdullilah.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Alhamdulillah we have Holy Quran which is sufficient enough for a mu'jiza and chain of narrations. The teachings of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallhu alaihe wassalam are also in line with other prophets. One point which i have seen many question raised about could be relating his character and few teachings, his marriage to Ayisha, number of his wives, his dealing with jew tribes in the area and finaly 'status of women in islam' i.e. final decision is of husbands or the man of the house or two women witness instead of one man in money matters.

We as muslims alhamdulillah believe in him being a prophet, so the explanations and the wisdom behind each of the matter is more apparent to us and we accept it readily. But what about a person who is exploring islam? Do you think these issues are big enough to hold you back from seeing the truth or the explanations do suffice? or you have to check the major issues and have faith about some of them?

wassalam

But what about a person who is exploring islam? Do you think these issues are big enough to hold you back from seeing the truth or the explanations do suffice? or you have to check the major issues and have faith about some of them?

I am exploring Isalm. It was suggested that I read Martin Lings-Muhhamad (pbuh) so I will let you know more after I finish the book. I am more inclined to agreee with Andulas 

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

senekerk wrote: But I must admitt reading the Qur'an gives me quite a different viewpoint based on how I feel when I read it.  I find peace. It speaks to my heart. So it really doesn't matter to me if he is a prophet or not, if I accept the Qur'an, at least that is how I look at it at the present time

Hi senekark, so when you have read Holy Quran and if decided that it is a divine book, is that when you believe that Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam was a Prophet because it is mentioned in Holy Quran?

P.S. I have deleted DavidC's post because dont want an intrafaith discusion starting here and also Shia's do believe in teaching of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam. I am sorry to say but its about time other religions look into differences their sects have got and stop pestering us.

wassalam 

Fatima wrote:

Hi senekark, so when you have read Holy Quran and if decided that it is a divine book, is that when you believe that Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam was a Prophet because it is mentioned in Holy Quran?

let me clarify, instead of saying Muhhamad (pbuh) is a prophet, never told a lie therefore the Qur'an is holy, the final word of Allah, therefore you should believe in Islam.

I say The Qur'an is inspired word of Allah, therefore believe in Islam, and I quess Fatima you are right if I accept Islam on the basis of the Qur'an being holy, I must accept Muhhamad as a prophet.

so the steps for me are:

1. Read Qur'an- let it speak to your heart

2. Belief the Qur'an if a holy and inspired book of Allah

3. Accept Islam

4. Belief in the prophet Mohhamad (pbuh)

Those are my simplest reason to believe in Islam

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

thank you senekerk,

and DavidC, you might have to check a shia site to find out what they believe in.

wassalam

Our prophet has continuously been  criticized for his lifestyle especially for his private life. As a believer I certainly accept that whatever Allah planned and did for the last prophet is true and correct. Belief is beyond thinking. This last statement is questionable of course but there is one limiting line -I believe-through which human mind cannot cross, and that line is cleared away only by believing by heart. The story of Jacob impresses me in that aspect. He had been waiting for his son for years, although he had his bloody shirt in hand-brought by his brothers to convince their father to the death of Yusuf- He had the logical proof against the possibility of living of his loved one but he waited for him. Look what happened then! He met Yusuf!

So whenever your mind is stuck in a positivistic and pessimistic labirynth, you should look into your heart.

Muhammad's (pbuh) lifestyle can be evaluated within the context of his own lifetime. His family life and marriages carry messages from his social perspective. But in the year 2007 we probably misunderstand these messages. At least we should accept that in that age in the arabic population where blood relations are more important than anything else, marriages of the leader brought important gain to the newly developing Islamic population. Polygami was not something specific to our prophet but was common in that time for all families.

To go back to the subject we muslims believe what is written in Kuran is accepted in all ages. And maybe rules about marriage can be interpreted as a widened circle of freedom either used or not used by human, and if we are to use this area of freedom we are invited to be very careful and even our unsuccesfulness in keeping the advice of Allah about the subject is stated in Kuran.

Allah knows the best. Selam to all.

Assalamualikum. thank you everyone who gave their piece of mind regarding this topic. I appreciate it very much. I have learnt a lot of things through this discussion. Thanks especially to Andalus, he knows a lot. I hope to continue my stint here in Islami city. I am officially closing this topic now.

May Allah bless all.