I believe that sufficient time has passed for the mods to put together a statement regarding Whisper's "change of status." Please inform us of your reason/s for this action.

Peace, Hanan

I am in complete agreement with Hanan and other Forum members who have expressed their dismay at Whisper's banning.  For the first time in weeks I have been able to scan over recent developments, and frankly am glad I stayed away!  Some have been banned who certainly should have been.  But Whisper....? I have just read his last few postings and threads he has contributed to, and can see no reason why this decision has been made.  Whisper has continued  "Whispering" in his idiosyncratic way with no real changes.  He has remained as a senior member for many years,  and any points members have disagreed with, they have gone hand to hand with Whisper himself.  Usually, both walked away with smiles on their faces.

I enjoy Whisper's acerbic humour, and many of his points are right on the money.  Whether they are popular or not perhaps rests with the Moderator's own opinions, or perhaps with the hosts of Islamicity themselves?  I don't know. It should not be the point, after all, should it. But this I will warn: If we allow long-standing members to be banned in this seemingly arbitrary manner we open the door to a future Forum quite deafening in its boredom.

Moderators: Bring back Whisper, or face your interlocutors with valid reasons why not.

(Incidentally,I have been told that members at one time were "suspended" for internal "wrongdoing".  Why is this no longer the case?)

Cass

Bismillah irrahman irraheem

Assalaamualaikum Warehmatullahi Wabarakatuh

Dear forum members,

It is sad scenario indeed since we don't really like to ban anyone. Yes, Brother Whisper has been banned. Why was he banned? It has already been announced in the Announcement section. To clarify further, Brother Whisper violated many rules in the past, and continued to do so (inspite of warnings). For example, he would blame all Americans for all the problems. Singling out and targeting a group of people goes against guidelines 1,15, 16. We had sent PMs to whisper in the past and had openly warned him too.

IC rules apply to everyone alike. Each and every member has to follow the guidelines otherwise this forum will become a virtual "battlefield". The members who "attack" any person/community, etc. be warned, IC is firm about this rule. Members who ignore warnings will be banned (do read the guidelines again).

As has been repeated many times earlier, most of the decisions are made after thorough discussions by Moderators/Administrators so no single Moderator / Administrator should be singled out for such things.

While we appreciate that some members expressed here their concern for his ban, it is highly regretted that some seized this opportunity to do score setting. (Angela pointed fingers at brother Rami and we do not appreciate it, because this is backbiting. He is not here to defend himself).  Dear members, please don't speak anything negative about a person who is not present here, and can not reply you.

We wish Brother Whisper good luck, and may Allah bless him and us all and guide us all.

Peace,

Moderator Group

My pointing out Rami was an example of the fact that sometimes the threats of banning are very arbitrary and much to the interpretation of the Moderator.  Brother Rami was rather conservative comparatively.  He and I had many disagreements and I said nothing that I wouldn't have said to his face.  I am a very, open and honest person.  Even if the other person doesn't like what I said. 

Right Hanan?

Backbiting is assuming I would not say such things if Brother Rami was still here.  He knows quiet well that I was offended by his threat to ban me because I expressed belief that the soul enters the body on conception.  (My belief, not Islams.)  And that abortion is nothing short of murder.

Whisper is very anti-American government.  But as an American and non-Muslim.  I ask that you give him another chance.  The US is to blame for many things right now.  Its not singling us out if its true.  However, I had no problems pointing out to him where he crossed the lines.  Whisper was a wonderful contributer to this forum and being Pashtun, he gave us the "other" side of the story.  To be balanced we need to see all sides of an issue.  To be 'nice' about everything just isn't right.  Whisper never really got insulting personally towards any of us Americans and was always careful to express its not the American people but the Government he hated. 

This is not a popularity game.  Whisper has my deepest respect and I sincerely wish that you would let him back.  This is coming from the Kafir American Woman.  If we are not insulted, then the moderators don't really have a case.  Again, I address my issues openly and without pulling punches.  The inheritance tax thread was an example of my disagreeing with Whisper and yet I still respect the man. 

Please reconsider.

amah wrote: Bismillah irrahman irraheem Assalaamualaikum Warehmatullahi Wabarakatuh Dear forum members, It is sad scenario indeed since we don't really like to ban anyone. Yes, Brother Whisper has been banned. Why was he banned? It has already been announced in the Announcement section. To clarify further, Brother Whisper violated many rules in the past, and continued to do so (inspite of warnings). For example, he would blame all Americans for all the problems. Singling out and targeting a group of people goes against guidelines 1,15, 16. We had sent PMs to whisper in the past and had openly warned him too. IC rules apply to everyone alike. Each and every member has to follow the guidelines otherwise this forum will become a virtual "battlefield". The members who "attack" any person/community, etc. be warned, IC is firm about this rule. Members who ignore warnings will be banned (do read the guidelines again). As has been repeated many times earlier, most of the decisions are made after thorough discussions by Moderators/Administrators so no single Moderator / Administrator should be singled out for such things. While we appreciate that some members expressed here their concern for his ban, it is highly regretted that some seized this opportunity to do score setting. (Angela pointed fingers at brother Rami and we do not appreciate it, because this is backbiting. He is not here to defend himself).  Dear members, please don't speak anything negative about a person who is not present here, and can not reply you. We wish Brother Whisper good luck, and may Allah bless him and us all and guide us all. Peace, Moderator Group

Salaamu Alaykum,

Power Corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You are wrong, Sister.  Simply, I won't ask you for something that should be.  I won't politely  bow to the powers that be when I don't have to.  And I don't have to.  Not here.

Why the hell should he be angry? After all, his country was and is being decimated constantly by America and American allies.  Yeah, Russia did it first, and before them it was someone else.  But right now. America should make people angry.  It makes me angry.  Oops.  We didn't mean to bomb that village.  Was that a wedding? Was that a village? 

As American citizens our civil liberties are being taken away, wrested from us?  No.  Some of us are hanging on, but others say, sure, take what you need, as long as we have ipods and cable who needs habeas corpus and freedom of speech.

CHANGE THE GUIDELINES.  They wreak.

To those who have not known whisper since day one, let me say this, but first I say I have this genuine respect for him and he for me, since the beginning. But honestly whisper has always been blaming america (and west) for all problems, I have been with this every step since the start, Whisper may say he does't say that he hates "americans" but in nearly all his posts it speaks. And then there is the personal attacks on people, such as sawtul which was clearly unfair. I have seen repeatedly Whisper goes for the person not the issue that is not fair. But I do have to say he didn't do this from the start/or at the old pond.

Whisper may have a unique style of writing but is that an excuse ? I don't believe his style has compromised him. 

How many chances do you guys want, the moderators have repeatedly done so and in private.

I am not surprised he got banned.

Duende wrote: Public announcements of departure from islamicity have always seemed to me to be grossly egotistical (why do they feel an announcement is necessary, their personal sense of importance I fear is inflated by the excitement of seeing their words 'in print' albeit only electronically ...)

This has nothing to do with the moderators, the moderators are doing that for the forum members who wanted to know who was being banned and why. So you (anybody) might else stop bashing the moderators about this. They announced that whisper got banned for voliating the guidelines repeatedly, ok which ones were not mentioned, Neither are some others who have be banned. 

You all may think I don't care about whisper - I do and in a weird sense there is this strange thing between us, a liking and respect of each other, that I cannot put my finger on it. 

Hanan wrote: Bismillah Thank you, Amah. Your explanation reminded me that, at times, I was also guilty of violating the same rules as apparently Whisper had. For this, as well as for any insult or disrespect towards fellow forum members, I ask forgiveness. May Allah continue to guide all who visit and participate at IC Forum. Peace, Hanan

Assalaamualaikum

I do appreciate your honesty.

Wassalaam.

Assalaamualaikum Duende, your post just makes me sad...what else can I say?

Wassalaam.

Daniel, tell me, should we tell the mods how much we appreciate that they blocked the "Jews� attempts to kill the Prophet (saw)" thread? If only they had done it BEFORE we threatened to boycott IC.

Peace, Hanan

Please allow me to say that I have respect for Whisper and his opinions. Although I don't agree with a lot of what he says I definitely appreciate an individual who, even if they're wrong, continue to stand their ground and challenge political thought. To me that is admirable. But on the flipside as Sister Amah pointed out when you get several warnings to stop then, you simply must stop. To me, that is pure common sense. I would definitely say to the moderators to "bring whisper back!' but at first I didn't know he was even BANNED in the first place until sister amah stated the reason. Not because he constantly talked about America, but because of the fact that he constantly singled out one country and constantly (although sometimes subtle) bashed America.

Let me reaffirm publicly that I respect the brother for his views and his continuous stance but at the same time a person's constant reference to America and doing the "blame game" does get tiresome and it does in a small way, can be offensive. Of course the general reply would be to call an American, "blind to the reality." But whether citizens of the United States are blind to what America does or not is besides the point. The point is to not constantly spam discussions (with refernece to MacDonalds) about how bad the United States is.

Honestly, we wouldn;t tolerate if a Jewish individual or Christian-Or even Muslim came in here stating heretical stuff about Islam or making false claims about Islam like they have done in the past and even now. I think we should call a spade a spade! Anyway I'd love to here more of Whisper's bashing of the States! But at the same time because this is not OUR website we must abide by the rules of the lesser gods, the moderators!

But on the flipside as Sister Amah pointed out when you get several warnings to stop then, you simply must stop.

Brother Israfil, this admiration is mutual and, out of sheer respect for Sister Amah and our Board�s counting skills, I won�t go into how many of these several warnings had come my way.

but because of the fact that he constantly singled out one country and constantly (although sometimes subtle) bashed America.

Brother, I promise, I had genuinely reformed.

I had started to hold the 172,000 Tuvalu Islanders, for turning our world into a powder keg, out of their greed, their need to plunder global resources and, specially, their constant practice of igniting wars, under one pretext of the other, since as far as I remember.

But then a week ago, one of your own ex-Presidents spilt all the beans about how all of this actually happens and who relly runs the U S. Please, trust me, not my fault, he wrote book entirely on his own and out of his experiences.

. . . but at the same time a person's constant reference to America and doing the "blame game" does get tiresome and it does in a small way, can be offensive.

My friend, "blame game" is when someone points a finger at someone without any justification, but when hard factual Historical Record are placed on the table then it�s known as slightly a different thing.

Before the days of my exile, I used to ask for three things the U S had done, by design or even unwittingly, since 1953, that haven�t harmed or badly suppressed people who happen to be other than full blooded Americans. But, since my re-instatement, I have reduced it to just ONE.

(Please believe me, it�s impossible for me to make any further reduction in this offer)

I promise you, in front of all these people that if you post just ONE such incident or accident, I will go back to blaming the Tuvalu Islanders for all the wrong done to this poor little world Be honest, isn't that an absolutely fair offer?

The point is to not constantly spam discussions (with refernece to MacDonalds) about how bad the United States is.

My brother, my offer is open, please just show us one good thing the US can be accused of doing for �my part of the world�. To me, it matters not how many Wallmarts or Dunkin Donuts you have in your country, I can and I will only count how much blood the US has shed � under one pretext or the other � since 1953.

Honestly, we wouldn;t tolerate if a Jewish individual or Christian-Or even Muslim came in here stating heretical stuff about Islam or making false claims about Islam like they have done in the past and even now.

I love you for your absolute innocence.

My friend, the day anyone (not just you) proves that anything I have ever posted is �heretical stuff� or some �false claims� I will admit my sins, apologise and cease posting.

Not just that, I will burn all my notes on Cap It All itis (collected since 1968) and not publish my thesis on Alternative Financial Therapy.

Whisper wrote: But on the flipside as Sister Amah pointed out when you get several warnings to stop then, you simply must stop. Brother Israfil, this admiration is mutual and, out of sheer respect for Sister Amah and our Board�s counting skills, I won�t go into how many of these several warnings had come my way. but because of the fact that he constantly singled out one country and constantly (although sometimes subtle) bashed America. Brother, I promise, I had genuinely reformed. I had started to hold the 172,000 Tuvalu Islanders, for turning our world into a powder keg, out of their greed, their need to plunder global resources and, specially, their constant practice of igniting wars, under one pretext of the other, since as far as I remember. But then a week ago, one of your own ex-Presidents spilt all the beans about how all of this actually happens and who relly runs the U S. Please, trust me, not my fault, he wrote book entirely on his own and out of his experiences. . . . but at the same time a person's constant reference to America and doing the "blame game" does get tiresome and it does in a small way, can be offensive. My friend, "blame game" is when someone points a finger at someone without any justification, but when hard factual Historical Record are placed on the table then it�s known as slightly a different thing. Before the days of my exile, I used to ask for three things the U S had done, by design or even unwittingly, since 1953, that haven�t harmed or badly suppressed people who happen to be other than full blooded Americans. But, since my re-instatement, I have reduced it to just ONE. (Please believe me, it�s impossible for me to make any further reduction in this offer) I promise you, in front of all these people that if you post just ONE such incident or accident, I will go back to blaming the Tuvalu Islanders for all the wrong done to this poor little world Be honest, isn't that an absolutely fair offer? The point is to not constantly spam discussions (with refernece to MacDonalds) about how bad the United States is. My brother, my offer is open, please just show us one good thing the US can be accused of doing for �my part of the world�. To me, it matters not how many Wallmarts or Dunkin Donuts you have in your country, I can and I will only count how much blood the US has shed � under one pretext or the other � since 1953. Honestly, we wouldn;t tolerate if a Jewish individual or Christian-Or even Muslim came in here stating heretical stuff about Islam or making false claims about Islam like they have done in the past and even now. I love you for your absolute innocence. My friend, the day anyone (not just you) proves that anything I have ever posted is �heretical stuff� or some �false claims� I will admit my sins, apologise and cease posting.   Not just that, I will burn all my notes on Cap It All itis (collected since 1968) and not publish my thesis on Alternative Financial Therapy. In fact, I will take ultimate step, I will go totally American and start to live as if the world ceases to exist beyond the divinity of the US.

Bismillah and Salaams,

I love your style, Sasha!

Other words come to mind when I read the silly things people believe America is or isn't, but you, in a very classy way, say, "I love your innocence."  Ma'Shah Allah!

Cassandra wrote: I do agree with Israfil.  Whisper:  just because you have been "unbanned" doesn't mean you may take up where you left off.  Those of us who supported you supported your insights and your idiosyncratic writing style. It did not mean that we agreed with them wholeheartedly. Please, lay off the Anti-American diatribes.  You know perfectly well that the majority of the country is just as incensed at its government's high handed, misguided, and blind policies as you are. We don't need any more McPhilosophy, please!

Salaams and Bismillah,

I certainly hope that he takes off where he left off.  Someone's got to do it, and he does it so well and with class.

Where are you guys in America that you think that the majority of the country is incensed at these things?  Get around people and hang out more.  I'd say the exact opposite.  The majority of the country cares about what's going on in their own lives and how the war in Iraq effects them, not the poor Iraqi people.  They also want the Jews and Palestinians to stop fighting over a piece of desert and make up.  Most people are just too busy to care about the carnage that our money and guns are causing all over the world.

But some of us care.  Some of us know the truth and some, which I can't include myself unfortunatley, work hard to bring that truth to light.  I thank Sasha endlessly for his effort to inform and educate us to our shortcomings.  There is hope for this reason only.

As I've been "preaching" from the very first day of my membership on this forum, "America doesn't care." We want this war to stop for all the reasons Herjihad has just stated. Heads out of the sand, please!

Sasha, I am on your side, as I am on the side of all those who fight the war for peace. Just because the majority says something is right does NOT make it right.

I interpret Sasha's "I love your innocence" as a gently nudge to stop pretending that some of you don't know what's going on around you.

Peace, Hanan

Thanks Whisper "The I love your innocence" is synonomous with "I'm ignorant of what America is doing overseas" which is fine everyone has their opinion.

My brother, where does "opinion" come in? It's just a simple, straight matter of historical record of the past one century - put together mostlly by American academics - not by some Mullah Omar's mother-in-law's nephew.

Shall we just forget about evrything else and examine just the simple historical facts?

You have whatever is left of this year to find out and post just ONE such incident - not just in the Middle East, but anywhere in Latin America, Africa or Asia - which didn't make matters worse for those places in the past 82 years.

That will save me from listing 223 Historically catalogued incidents (other than the 82 UN Vetos, to keep their Bulldog running without any chains in the Mid East street). This will also save me from repeating the Tonkin Bay story that almost everyone knows in the world, but thank goodness, not the specially manufactured Amercans.

My shopwindow can't afford and doesn't require to be dressed in any fancy "opinion" ribbons, my friend, mine a plain simple Historical Goods Junkyard. Fancy visiting sometimes?

Look, I'm probably more of a realist then both you and Hanan together....I see murder all the time in the prisons. I see what happens when you lock a human being up for hours and days at a time and see how this type of isolation can deteriorate your "spirit." Unjustice happens all over the world. I'm no blind to say that America is perfect but I be damned if I spend hours at a time on Islamicity.com complaining about it without doing a damn thing about it.....

Here is my advice: Do what I did. I saw a passion to stop injustice at least the injustice that I can prevent or detract so I joined Law enforcement. The same goes for anti-war nut jobs. If you hate war so much write your congressman. Get out there and stop picketing and start getting into the Law. There is more power in getting into the law then there is, standing in the cold yelling at veterans who have lost brothers and lost limbs and talking about how "st**id Bush is."

I know America has a f***** up history. I'm black, so I remember what happened to my ancestors and the ancestors of the indigenous people that were here before the Anglos. I'm not blind to America's ugly history nor am I blind to the strife many people across the world endure because of America. My point here is, this is an Islamic website not a politics forum where American bashing is the hot topic to discuss.

If you are so passionate about it, write to Bush or better yet write to your local embassy. One thing I've learned while I did my share of whinning on Islamicity.com is nobody here cares about my personal problems. So, I stop whinning. The same goes for constantly posting about how bad America is. Dude, I live in America, I know how f**** up people can be, remember I'm working in the prison system.

I want those who want to take action do something instead of logging online just to vent and constantly post about things they need to do something about it. The reason I'm saying this because I CAN. It would be different if I was at home not doing a damn thing and just posting for no damn reason but I am. Everday I put my life on the line for all human beings.

I'm getting screwed myself by my own state government but you know what, I'm in my supervisors face about the injustice within th system of law enforcement so I'm very active in making changes in that area......But you know what? It doesn't matter what I say because people will do what they want to do anyway. Again whisper I have nothing against you. But frankly what I love is discussing the intellectual stuff about Islam, not politics. Politics is a fickle field because nobody cannot say "they are the victim."

Where else, except here at IC and some other places, might we (including myself) spirited, adventurous, and at times arguably politically literate Yanks go for a little counter-conditioning?  I mean, just leaving public school education out of the equation for the moment, not to mention, of course, omnipresent �corporatist� (spit, phew!) media, we�re probably even being subliminally bombarded with party-line propaganda in the Muzak at any given up-against-the-Wall-Mart (but don�t expect me to prove this latter bit)!

I, personally, and speaking now of the judicious use of agitprop and political theatre, would suggest that this ongoing (not a Miss, but) �Dis-America Pageant� would be a complete flop without Whisper here to play Master of Ceremony!

And furthermore, as I have repeatedly said, I like his serious posts as well.

Serv

_____________________________

dMccracy rides on the wings of McDonnell McDouglas warplanes

Who is picketing? Do you know that there are thousands of Vietnam- Gulf War- Iraq War- and Afghan War Veterans who are VERY active against the current US regime, not to forget all the retired military generals? What is this �getting into law� reference? Is this the only advice you have for us? I don�t see where it got YOU anywhere. I�m quoting you now: �I'm getting screwed myself by my own state government but you know what, I'm in my supervisors face about the injustice within th system of law enforcement so I'm very active in making changes in that area......But you know what? It doesn't matter what I say because people will do what they want to do anyway.�

Well, my friend, I can tell you that, when I speak, it matters to those who hear me. Perhaps you should get OUT of law enforcement and align yourself with like-minded, peace loving, non-violent people?

I know America has a (stop using foul language) history. I'm black, so I remember what happened to my ancestors and the ancestors of the indigenous people that were here before the Anglos. I'm not blind to America's ugly history nor am I blind to the strife many people across the world endure because of America.

The history of non-white Americans has nothing to do with what is going on right now. What happened to your ancestors happened to your ancestors, not to you. We are not talking about slavery, Jim Crow, the mass-murders of Native Americans etc., on this thread. And you are responsible for your actions, especially since you admit to knowing about �the strife many people across the world endure because of America.�

My point here is, this is an Islamic website not a politics forum where American bashing is the hot topic to discuss.

Here is my advice: Do what I did. I saw a passion to stop injustice at least the injustice that I can prevent or detract so I joined Law enforcement.

Brother, I tried to follow your advice.

Yesterday, they were closed, boxing day or something. And, this morning, they won�t stop laughing when I told them I would be 60 in 24 days and 17 hours.

I have no idea if they were laughing at 24 days or the 17 hours bit. I just left.

Furthermore, Servie says, largely to himself because the late-afternoon crowd here at Speaker�s Corner in Hyde Park is dwindling, the last thing that anyone should expect from Whisper is that he should play �babu� to George W. Bush�s �sahib!�  I find no fault in him for that.

Serv

______________

A colony?  What�s that?  I�m a neo-trusteeship territory!

Darling, they're still laughing at the �Shixshty.�

You mean they are age-prejudiced so n sos?

Furthermore, Servie says, largely to himself because the late-afternoon crowd here at Speaker�s Corner in Hyde Park is dwindling,

Guv, years ago, we faced the same problem one Saturday afternoon. People were yawning at our great saviours, on their soap-boxes and escaping, anywhere. (in the post our dynamic Lord Donald Soper era)

Even the speakers had tired of their own induced boredom and taken a tea break. We found an abandoned soap-box. We set up the Hyde Park Jokes Corner. You could tell just your two jokes and then hand the spot over to the next bloke.

You should have seen the crowd after that.

herjihad wrote: I thank Sasha endlessly for his effort to inform and educate us to our shortcomings.

What about Sasha's short comings ?

Hanan wrote: As I've been "preaching" from the very first day of my membership on this forum, "America doesn't care." We want this war to stop for all the reasons Herjihad has just stated. Heads out of the sand, please!

You know something, no one's disagreeing with Sasha about stopping the war and injustice going on, we all want that too, People really fail to see that.

Sasha, I am on your side, as I am on the side of all those who fight the war for peace. Just because the majority says something is right does NOT make it right.

You are right and its true that what the majority says is right does not make it so.

But you guys fail to see is, I am on his side to, so is Israfil and others, we like him but the continuing bashing of america since day dot is rather well, just hitting at america and blaming her all day long, it is NOT helping.

And may I remind you ALL that many Iraqis and Afghanistan people wants the help of America, and while I have heard some say that some of them have now changed their minds and want America out BUT THAT DOES NOT change the fact many want america�s help! Instead of posting negative stories and the blame it on America reports, BRING across those who actually don�t blame America and need her help! And then lets start talking what we can do to help. It is a fact that if America left and/or abruptly the insurgents will do the job of continuing the wars and killings and bombings and then will the poor innocent people be!

Let�s start talking when you start bringing stories of people wanting America�s help and want these other people want and not ALL about those who don�t want America and her help and blame everything on her!!

No one disgrees that America has her faults and is not doing good in iraq and Afghanistan anymore and that the poor people there are rather hurt and struggling more like any of us.  I am glad and happy that Whisper speaks out and gives another point of view & from someone there, have always been but this constantly bashing and blaming all day long is rather i believe is futile. And i believe you cannot say some people have their heads in the sand, some americans have spoken out, look at Israfil, which people missed the point of his post. 

No one really denies! And some amercians do not like whats happening either, and I don�t like it when my government goes and follows amercia, as if we don�t have a mind of our own. I wish my government would put a time line on when our troops get out (and my uncle will stop being there in iraq doing his job) and not be like the US saying we must�ve leave (yet).

Israfil wrote: Thanks Whisper "The I love your innocence" is synonomous with "I'm ignorant of what America is doing overseas" which is fine everyone has their opinion. Of course the innocence bit is also related to what Hana said about "head sin the sand."

I agree, this "The I love your innocence" (�I love you for your absolute innocence.�) Sasha's last post to Amah is consending and patronizing and it undermines her knowledge/intelligence/education. And this is why I don�t get into any of sasha�s posts/threads any more as much as I would like and pose my thoughts and opinions, as sad as it is because I do like Whisper and his unique style of writing. 

Angel wrote: herjihad wrote: I thank Sasha endlessly for his effort to inform and educate us to our shortcomings.  What about Sasha's short comings ? Hanan wrote: As I've been "preaching" from the very first day of my membership on this forum, "America doesn't care." We want this war to stop for all the reasons Herjihad has just stated. Heads out of the sand, please! You know something, no one's disagreeing with Sasha about stopping the war and injustice going on, we all want that too, People really fail to see that. Sasha, I am on your side, as I am on the side of all those who fight the war for peace. Just because the majority says something is right does NOT make it right. You are right and its true that what the majority says is right does not make it so. But you guys fail to see is, I am on his side to, so is Israfil and others, we like him but the continuing bashing of america since day dot is rather well, just hitting at america and blaming her all day long, it is NOT helping. And may I remind you ALL that many Iraqis and Afghanistan people wants the help of America, and while I have heard some say that some of them have now changed their minds and want America out BUT THAT DOES NOT change the fact many want america�s help! Instead of posting negative stories and the blame it on America reports, BRING across those who actually don�t blame America and need her help! And then lets start talking what we can do to help. It is a fact that if America left and/or abruptly the insurgents will do the job of continuing the wars and killings and bombings and then will the poor innocent people be! Let�s start talking when you start bringing stories of people wanting America�s help and want these other people want and not ALL about those who don�t want America and her help and blame everything on her!! No one disgrees that America has her faults and is not doing good in iraq and Afghanistan anymore and that the poor people there are rather hurt and struggling more like any of us.  I am glad and happy that Whisper speaks out and gives another point of view & from someone there, have always been but this constantly bashing and blaming all day long is rather i believe is futile. And i believe you cannot say some people have their heads in the sand, some americans have spoken out, look at Israfil, which people missed the point of his post.  No one really denies! And some amercians do not like whats happening either, and I don�t like it when my government goes and follows amercia, as if we don�t have a mind of our own. I wish my government would put a time line on when our troops get out (and my uncle will stop being there in iraq doing his job) and not be like the US saying we must�ve leave (yet). Israfil wrote: Thanks Whisper "The I love your innocence" is synonomous with "I'm ignorant of what America is doing overseas" which is fine everyone has their opinion. Of course the innocence bit is also related to what Hana said about "head sin the sand." I agree, this "The I love your innocence" (�I love you for your absolute innocence.�) Sasha's last post to Amah is consending and patronizing and it undermines her knowledge/intelligence/education. And this is why I don�t get into any of sasha�s posts/threads any more as much as I would like and pose my thoughts and opinions, as sad as it is because I do like Whisper and his unique style of writing.

Angel,

You find it insulting, whereas I find it endearing.  Just two different points of view.  You say what about his shortcomings?  When a man's country is decimated by mine and yours, I'd say he has more right to his shortcomings than you or I.

And personally, I don't find it at all sad that you don't participate in his threads as much for the reason you stated.  This isn't a why you dislike Whisper thread.  It's a why we like him thread.

Hanan,

Allow me to comment on several of your posts here politely:

You said:

"What a simple solution � join law enforcement! Why didn�t I think of that? Could have saved myself a lot of verbal abuse and money."

No offense but if you didn't understand my statement (which is meant to say take action) then its obvious that the reason will never find you. Don't literally do what I'm saying but merely saying that you should take action on what you "copy-n-paste."

You said:

"Who are you calling nut-jobs? Allow me to refer you to Daniel�s post. Although we may not be as courageous as he is, or perhaps we just don�t have a chance to publicly march in protest against the US regime�s �wars against terror,� does that mean that we�re sitting �for hours� in front of our computers? What a limited understanding you have, my friend."

First off let me say there are Anti-War Nut jobs just as there are Pro-War nut jobs. The fanatics exist on both sides of the line and what I'm saying is that rather constantly talk about how bad something is, physically do something. Now you ask "how do you know we are not doing anything?" Let me see here.....Predominantly Hanan, most of your post regarding politics are copy and paste in comparison to people like Herjihad who actually had posted links which we could electronically sign in protest of an injustice. Those kinds of things is what I'm talking about. If you want to be involved in the political process and want others to join, do things like that. I find actions like Herjihads as well as Brother Daniels quite effective, more so than copy-n-paste about something we can hardly have dialogue in.

You said:

"What does opposition to unjust military invasions, to constant lies from a regime to its citizens, to killings, tortures, rapes, mistreatment of civilians and soldiers, have to do with hate? Hate is such a waste of time. Seems as if you see things as black OR white - if I don�t LOVE America then I must HATE it. How simple is your understanding of the many components of human emotions."

You're right! I do see SOME things in black and white. Any person with a rational mind would say that they LOVE peace. I mean, at least those that abhore violence so what is the opposite of that? Destruction (as an associate to violence which war is). When I mean hate, I'm not talking about the cold-hearted hatred as if the hatred of an enemy but something you truly loathe to the point where it physically effects your psyche which, causes you to act against it. Now whether you hate america or not is your own personal choice. I just don't care to dwell on the complexities of this administration and what it does out there. It does not effect me although I'm sadden at the constant struggle of Muslims across the planet, but in reality, I'm more concerned about our domestic issues here....

You said:

"Who is picketing? Do you know that there are thousands of Vietnam- Gulf War- Iraq War- and Afghan War Veterans who are VERY active against the current US regime, not to forget all the retired military generals? What is this �getting into law� reference? Is this the only advice you have for us? I don�t see where it got YOU anywhere."

This is funny. You are a true literalist! I'm not talking about the war vets I'm talking about you! the one who is passionate and so strong on her own political views. Since you don't disclose what you do outside the forum, and since most of your topics (from what I've read thus far) are about politics by quoting an article or an individual who just simply shares your views then by default I assume you do nothing but rant about how bad America is. What I'm saying is get involved in the political process not IC members I'm making the reference only to you!

You said:

Well, my friend, I can tell you that, when I speak, it matters to those who hear me. Perhaps you should get OUT of law enforcement and align yourself with like-minded, peace loving, non-violent people?

Who says that I don't align myself with peace loving individuals? Yes perhaps when you do speak it matters to people here or outside here. That is great! Frankly if you are referring to here then that is quite fine. I know where I stand here on this website, if that is what the early portion of your statement was referring.

You said:

 "The history of non-white Americans has nothing to do with what is going on right now. What happened to your ancestors happened to your ancestors, not to you. We are not talking about slavery, Jim Crow, the mass-murders of Native Americans etc., on this thread. And you are responsible for your actions, especially since you admit to knowing about �the strife many people across the world endure because of America.�

See? when people say things that are totally illogical, it is hard to be brutally honest. Well, I cannot assume what ethnic group you associate yourself with, but for those of us people that don't think like the great portion of White America this whole social system was created to favor certain classes of people and race happens to be one of those classes. So whether or not I participated in slavery doesn't mean that the effects of ethnocentrism does not effect the latter generations. A typical "White Protestant" comment would be "you are responsible for your own actions" while true in some cases, it is not true for those who were born in disadvantage positions which ALOT of MINORITIES in this country are especially women comments such as "you are responsible for your own actions" does not suffice as a solution nor a logical comment.

Hanan I've been in these positions and have been blessed by Allah Subhana Wa' Ta'alaa to have come out of that position especially in my case where I'm making $100k a year salary as a rookie (who says I hate my job?). So this is why I make the reference to race in that comment. Do you get it now? Yes injustices happen to everyone in the world. I never simply isolated my wn struggle or the struggles of my own ethnic group I was simply stating an example which you being the literalist you are did not read behind the words.

You said:

"My friend, you are as responsible for what is discussed on this forum as those who you accuse of making it a political rather than an Islamic website. If your sincere wish is to discuss matters of faith, then I want to know why you insist that we all should join law enforcement, write to our congress person, and other secular matters. I suspect that it is the - what you call - America-bashing, that gets you upset, correct? Let me tell you, Israfil, if another country had invaded America without any justification (is there ever justification to invade a sovereign nation?), I would speak out against this other country, and I am convinced that you and I would then stand in TOTAL agreement here on this Islamic website. What do you think?"

Hanan, honestly and sincerely you are very fun to dialogue with.......You are strong and passionate about your views and I admire that. That is an attractive trait about you......But let me clarify something here, I was using Law Enforcement as a Segway for taking action. I'm not saying "Hey guys you should be a cop. You get a cool badge and a gun and you get to bust criminals!" No. I'm saying for those of us who are passionate to where it bothers us physically we should get involved. Take some kind of action. Hanan and I'll be honest, posting on IC is a good thing but it does nothing to the outside world. Perhaps it does, but the kind of action I was referring to was the personal action one takes. Whether its picketing in front of the embassy or writing letters. But if your mentality is "the enemy does not care about my letters or my picketing" then what good is there to complain? Because all you're doing is venting and sharing your political views which not all people share. Yes of course you'll have most Muslims here agree with you because the situation is effecting Muslims overseas but if the situation was a domestic issue, let's say a race riot that broke out in prisons Muslims won't care. If you ask me, since we are humans we are selfish and only care about problems that either concern us directly or our people....Me, I try to get out of that mindset and try to think globally not "what effects me"

About your comment about if there were an invading army in America ( Ah, Pearl Harbor?) would we stand in agreement? Yes definitely. I think we stand in agreement with a lot of things. I think you mistake me as some individual who supports what America does. I don't support the war or wars. I never did. I just don't care for the American bashing which is what you do (not you personally) when you constantly make posts over and over and over. If you create several political post then in my opinion you just want to post readings not discuss the issues. That is spamming not dialogue. With me personally that turns me away from discussion because all I'm doing is seeing your name over and over and over about issue after issue after issue. I want to share ideas not see spamming about how F***** up America is. Oh, I'm not cursing see the censorship?

"The only one constantly venting is YOU. I demand that you finally answer the questions I had posed to you on other threads. It won�t do anymore to post your �opinions� and when challenged you decide not to respond and move on to another thread. I call it �the coward way out.� Let�s see if you actually have something to say!"

I didn't mean to miss your questioning me on purpose I may have overlooked it maybe or if I'm away for a day or two I forget the post or read the most recent comment. I want a challenge frankly I have yet for an individual to challenge me in an intellectual discussion so if you have questions please either send them to me via PM or create a thread. It's not cowarding it's called being lazy and reading the most recent post......Yes I'm confident about my intelligence but I work hard to get to the position where I am so yes I can be a bit cocky. But the difference between me and some other Muslims is I challenge myself and my ways of thought and perhaps I do challenge myself so much then I start to question my own beliefs. But at the same time Muslims don't do that on this website nor in some sectors in the world especially overseas.

It's so easy to be around people that are like minded and that would agree with you without challenging your beliefs. Seriously, most religious "folk" don't evaluate why they believe the way they do. The average opinion is "well because I have faith" that does not suffice. People need to challenge themselves because it solidifies their religious foundation. No wonder we have religious fanatics (Or Muslim Radicals) because all they have to do is listen to their Imam and they do what they're told. To me that is ignorance not intelligence. Because and no offense to anyone here if an Imam told you to stick a piece of wood up your butt because the prophet did so people would do it! Similarly when people read the Hadith and they are told to cleanse themselves (their posterior area) with pebbles because the prophet did so especially when toilet tissue is accessible to me that is not thinking critically that is doing what you're told!

>>>>NO YOU CAN�T! You come across as a very frustrated individual who�s life isn�t working out very well, and the reason for this failure always seem lies with OTHERS.<<<<

Well, I can! LOL I'm frustrated? Me? Ahhhhh no! Maybe that day when I wrote my post I was frustrated at my superiors but in actuality I'm loving what I do. I'm making a difference inside the jails and outside. For a moment my situation was tough because I had to acclimate to the environment but that is the price you pay for duties to your country. By the way I see you downplayed my job by saying:

herjihad wrote: Angel wrote: herjihad wrote: I thank Sasha endlessly for his effort to inform and educate us to our shortcomings.  What about Sasha's short comings ? Hanan wrote: As I've been "preaching" from the very first day of my membership on this forum, "America doesn't care." We want this war to stop for all the reasons Herjihad has just stated. Heads out of the sand, please! You know something, no one's disagreeing with Sasha about stopping the war and injustice going on, we all want that too, People really fail to see that. Sasha, I am on your side, as I am on the side of all those who fight the war for peace. Just because the majority says something is right does NOT make it right. You are right and its true that what the majority says is right does not make it so. But you guys fail to see is, I am on his side to, so is Israfil and others, we like him but the continuing bashing of america since day dot is rather well, just hitting at america and blaming her all day long, it is NOT helping. And may I remind you ALL that many Iraqis and Afghanistan people wants the help of America, and while I have heard some say that some of them have now changed their minds and want America out BUT THAT DOES NOT change the fact many want america�s help! Instead of posting negative stories and the blame it on America reports, BRING across those who actually don�t blame America and need her help! And then lets start talking what we can do to help. It is a fact that if America left and/or abruptly the insurgents will do the job of continuing the wars and killings and bombings and then will the poor innocent people be! Let�s start talking when you start bringing stories of people wanting America�s help and want these other people want and not ALL about those who don�t want America and her help and blame everything on her!! No one disgrees that America has her faults and is not doing good in iraq and Afghanistan anymore and that the poor people there are rather hurt and struggling more like any of us.  I am glad and happy that Whisper speaks out and gives another point of view & from someone there, have always been but this constantly bashing and blaming all day long is rather i believe is futile. And i believe you cannot say some people have their heads in the sand, some americans have spoken out, look at Israfil, which people missed the point of his post.  No one really denies! And some amercians do not like whats happening either, and I don�t like it when my government goes and follows amercia, as if we don�t have a mind of our own. I wish my government would put a time line on when our troops get out (and my uncle will stop being there in iraq doing his job) and not be like the US saying we must�ve leave (yet). Israfil wrote: Thanks Whisper "The I love your innocence" is synonomous with "I'm ignorant of what America is doing overseas" which is fine everyone has their opinion. Of course the innocence bit is also related to what Hana said about "head sin the sand." I agree, this "The I love your innocence" (�I love you for your absolute innocence.�) Sasha's last post to Amah is consending and patronizing and it undermines her knowledge/intelligence/education. And this is why I don�t get into any of sasha�s posts/threads any more as much as I would like and pose my thoughts and opinions, as sad as it is because I do like Whisper and his unique style of writing.  Angel, You find it insulting, whereas I find it endearing.  Just two different points of view.  You say what about his shortcomings?  When a man's country is decimated by mine and yours, I'd say he has more right to his shortcomings than you or I. And personally, I don't find it at all sad that you don't participate in his threads as much for the reason you stated.  This isn't a why you dislike Whisper thread.  It's a why we like him thread.

I NEVER said I disliked Sasha, please re-read!!

for goodness sake!

please check the larger bold writing up above to see.

Angel wrote: [/QUO

I NEVER said I disliked Sasha, please re-read!!

for goodness sake!

please check the larger bold writing up above to see.

[/QUOTE]

Sometimes people only see what they want to in a post.

When you have a domestic situation such as being robbed or being assaulted who do you call?

Brother, by your own logic of last week, why must we call anyone "when a crime is being committed"?

Shouldn't we just write to the criminal's Congressman, go home, have a Coke and a Double Decker Burger and sleep it off?

Whisper wrote: When you have a domestic situation such as being robbed or being assaulted who do you call? Brother, by your own logic of last week, why must we call anyone "when a crime is being committed"? Shouldn't we just write to the criminal's Congressman, go home, have a Coke and a Double Decker Burger and sleep it off?

What does this comment mean and by my own logic of last week? Speaking in riddles brother?

Speaking in riddles brother?

No brother, just Whispering your advice. Last week, you advised us not to act about one of the most hideous of crimes, this Operation Iraqi Freedom, and instead write to our Congressmen. With the same logic, wouldn't you agree that we must also write to our Congressman instead of taking some action against all other crimes, as well?

Whisper there is a clear distinction here from writing to your Congressman on global issues and domestic issues. I was merely commenting on the global issues in which for the average person in the U.S at least, cannot physically go over there and take personal action. What I was referring to was that if we are so animated about helping and doing things we should take action. But, since you are a stickler for specificity, when I say write to your local Congressman I'm simply referring to stating your opinion to the policy makers. Now it is obviously common sense that you call the local authorities and since you said the above I'm thinking if you were being st**id sarcasm.

By all means if you feel that "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is unjust and you want to physically do something about it, go right ahead. Just make sure before you leavce to make funeral arrangements for yourself.

but the continuing bashing of america since day dot is rather well, just hitting at america and blaming her all day long, it is NOT helping.

Angel, a very Happy New Year to you, too.

You didn�t notice, I had reformed and had started to hold the Tuvalu Islanders for fomenting and, at times, conducting all wars and killings in our world.

Hardly a week had gone by when one of the Americans� very own ex-Presidents spilt all the beans, openly, in broad daylight. Now, I am just lost.

And may I remind you ALL that many Iraqis and Afghanistan people wants the help of America

My friend, we believe, in fact, we know that one day, when our time is up, we will all die. We don�t really want the help of America in bulk rate speed up of this process, with their super fast killing machines.

It�s fun to go one by one, in our own turn and, preferably, at home with friends, uncles, aunts, sons, daughters and a nephew or two, if not the whole range of grandchildren. It�s a bit inconvenient to be killed at some poor cousin�s wedding, in the next village.

while I have heard some say that some of them have now changed their minds and want America out BUT THAT DOES NOT change the fact many want America�s help!

I know, John �oward has been spreading such rumours.

He has also been telling people; �people would be waiting with garlands, at the end of the Cake Walk� and all such stuff.

Angel, that was just for pulling a bit of wool over the American public�s eyes � read Carters� book and you would know �by who�.

But if you just gave me some hints about this America�s help! I promise, I will at least think about it, though it would be almost impossible for any of us to swallow it, in the face of a whole century of global events at hand.

Instead of posting negative stories and the blame it on America reports, BRING across those who actually don�t blame America and need her help!

I am here before you. I want America�s help. They can help greatly by just getting out of our countries, by stopping to exterminate us and by letting us live the way we wish to live and follow whatever system we wish to follow.

What more help do we want from America? You mean, learning to roller blade or how to properly deal with a whole Cheese Burger?

And then lets start talking what we can do to help. It is a fact that if America left and / or abruptly the insurgents will do the job of continuing the wars and killings and bombings and then will the poor innocent people be!

Happy New Year, again, and I sincerely pray that this year you begin to understand THAT it would be entirely our own problem, though the U S triggered this situation and are now staying there just to foment a civil war � perhaps, for some of their Masters� agenda.

Other than that, my friend, all the people in the world were created with all that requires them to lead their lives in just and peaceful manner. This doesn't mix with our colonisers' designs and they disturb the natural balance - for their own advantages.

By all means if you feel that "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is unjust and you want to physically do something about it, go right ahead. Just make sure before you leavce to make funeral arrangements for yourself.

My friend, thank you for the advice, but as a Muslim you might possibly know that we need a funeral arrangement, at hand, even when we lift a plain simple glass of water and move it towrds our dry lips.

Do we ever know if we will sip it or just c h o k e on it?

Brother, I don't feel "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is unjust. By now, I and the whole world knows that it's a sheer fraud and a thid rate crime against humanity - perpetuated by the U S of A.