You do not need a degree in philosophy or a course in morality to answer my questions.  You have a brain, use it.  You brought up Sura IV-92 which mentions the use of slaves.  I know of 11 other passages in the Koran discussing the use of slaves: 4-3, 4-24, 4-25, 23-6, 24-31, 24-58, 20-28, 33-50, 33-52, 33-55, 70-30, and there may be more.  Would it not had been better to have required the abolishment of the institution of slavey rather than on how to use slaves? 1) Which has a higher moral standing - the abolishment of slavery or instructions on how to use slaves?  The only Muslim group that I known that has members that approve of the use of slavery are the Wahhabis, but I am assuming they do not represent main stream Islam.  What do you think?  And I mean - what do you think, not someone hundreds of years ago.

Sid

I think you're judging it according to the western definition of slavery, beatng them etc. By the Muslim definition and the way they are treated, if you were a slave of a king you would be living like a king! you eat what he eats you dress the way he dresses you get payed before your sweat dries up and you cant be beaten. What more do you want? Basically its what we call today a servant. I believe its good since In Islam we have to:

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari:  "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)."  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Food, Meals, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 286)"

Narrated Asma: "No doubt the Prophet ordered people to manumit slaves during the solar eclipse.   (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Eclipses, Volume 2, Book 18, Number 163)"

"'Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that 'Umar b. Khattab asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as he was at ji'rana (a town near Mecca) on his way back from Ta'if: Messenger of Allah, I had taken a vow during the days of Ignorance that I would observe I'tikaf for one day in the Sacred Mosque. So what is your opinion? He said: Go and observe I'tikaf for a day. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) gave him a slave girl out of the one-fifth (of the spoils of war meant for the Holy Prophet). And when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) set the war prisoners free. 'Umar b. Khattab heard their voice as they were saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set us free. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: What is this? They said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set free the prisoners of war (which had fallen to the lot of people). Thereupon he (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Abdullah, go to that slave-girl and set her free.  (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4074)"

So I think Islam did put an ending to slavery. And btw its forbidden to call them slaves. In Islam, we are all the slaves of Allah and only Allah. In Islam it also says that if you beat your slave you would go to hell.

Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari reported: "When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas'ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him. I turned and (found him) to be Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah's Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you.  (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4088)"

"Zadhan reported that Ibn Umar called his slave and he found the marks (of beating) upon his back. He said to him: I have caused you pain. He said: No. But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him, then expiation for it is that he should set him free.   (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4079).

The Prophet peace be upon him also said:

"Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.'  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"

OK, where are those comments.  Is the Kuwait Kid the only Muslim with a back bone to express his opinion, horrifying as it may be.  Who out there supports slavery as expressed in the Koran?  Who out there is opposed to slavery, no mater what?  Andalus, I know you have read this.  What is your opinion?

Sid

I am amazed that there has been no general condemnation of slavery.  Later I will report on my experiences with slavery in Pakistan.

Sid

Actually, that is my point.  Nowhere in the numerous times that slavery is mention is it comdemend or forbidden.  For the most part, they are verses that give instructions on how to use your slaves.  Go look the verses up.  I gave you the references.  Slavery was common 1300 years ago, but morality has changed for a lot of the world, but not for the Wahhabis and some other Muslims.  According to the independent Saudi Information Agency, Al-Fawzan said in a lecture "Slavery is a part of Islam�Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam." Al-Fawzan is a member of the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, Saudi Arabia�s highest religious body, and a professor at Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University, Saudi Arabia's main center of learning for the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam.

I do not know how strong the Wahhbis are in Islam, but their writings can be found in most Mosques in the US.  They may, even, be represented in Kuwait.  Please check on it and let me know.  Is there anyone that wishes to condemn or defend the Wahhabis?

Sid

They are strong in Saudia Arabia, and in Kuwait. But, as I said, whats the big deal if slavery according to Islam is not forcing him to do anything he cant, feeding him what you eat and feeding him with you on the same table you eat on, you elping him if he cant do something, you paying him before his sweat dries up, u giving him his freedom if he asks for it, u not beating him if u do u have to set him free or ull go to hell, and you not calling him bad names. This isnt slavery by todays standars of it. I dont see the big deal. Plus keep in mind this slavery isnt to enslave black or white people. Its generally speeking.

If I understand you correctly, Arab, you are saying that "slaves" don't exist in Islam, only "servants".  Therefore, the women referred to in the Koran as "what your right hand possesses" are really servants.  But the Koran clearly states that muslim males are allowed to have sex with "what your right hand possesses", even if the women are married to other men.  Therefore, you are claiming that Muslim males are allowed to have sex with other mens wives (so long as the wives are servants of the Muslim who is committing adultery).  Correct?

Gentlemen,

God made men and men made slaves. It was therefore the job of man to eradicate slavery.

We thus do not find the Lord Almighty abolishing slavery, which was right there from the beginning of the Genesis, through the times of Moses and even Jesus had no comments, while Muhammad did teach after reading Qur'aan that slaves should be treated well.

The only example when the Lord Almighty really came to rescue the slaves was when the Hebrews were rescued and led by Moses out of Egypt. The 400 years of Hebrews' slavery were the worst of it's kind in any ancient civilisations.

There are various types of slavery:

Maintaining man-servant and maid-servants who lived with the master and were fully cared for.

Slaves who were bought from other men. It was not necessary that the sold man had to be a slave.

Excellent Examples: Exodus 21 "These are the laws you are to set before them" and the Lord Almighty is ordering the following:

2"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years.....4If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free."

7"If a man sells his daughter as a servant............."

20"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, (my comment: punishment not described), 21but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

22:2"A thief must certainly make restitution, but if he has nothing, he must be sold to pay for his theft."

We do not have much from Jesus on slavery but Paul has this to say: Ephesians 5:5 titled Slaves and Masters.

5:5"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear them with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.............."and 5:9 reminds the masters to treat the slaves well.

This slavery is different from the famous Slave trade of people from Africa to other parts of the world in the modern times.

Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were slaves of God and they can also be called servants of God.

The Japanese have the best form of slavery but that is not bad at all. Every Japanese works and dies for a Toyota, Mazda or Nissan or Mitsubishi.

There seems to be a pattern that I am detecting.  When ever I confront Muslims, here and else where, about the verses in the Koran, there is, usually, a denial that such verses exist and that religious leaders all reject slavery.  But when I point out the verses in the Koran and support today by Imams for slavery, the attitude shifts to either slavery really isn�t that bad or that is not really slavery.  It should be pointed out that the word used in the Koran is SLAVERY and �those that the right hand possesses.�  When confronted with evidence, there seems to be a fear of critizing those slavery verses in the Koran or the support of slavery spoken by Imams.  I will assume that the fear is justified.

Back when Zia was the dictator of Pakistan, I made my first trip to a Muslim country, Pakistan.  The first morning there, I was having breakfast in a five star hotel in Islamabad with my Pakistani host.  After a few minutes he started to apologize for something and I did not understand what he was talking about.  He was talking about the prevalence of slavery in Pakistan and pointed to a nearby table where a well to do Muslim family was eating.  There was a father, wife, two children, a boy and girl about 6 or 7 years old, all seated and hanging on to the fathers chair was a girl, about 12 years old.  She was wearing a nice dress, but had no shoes and no place to sit.  My host explained that she was a child slave.  I was so shocked that I did nothing.  This was, only, the first time I was confronted with �in your face� slavery in a Muslim country.  Each time I did not know what to do, being in a foreign culture.  And each time I came away felling that I had done something morally bad because of my inaction.  So I ask you, what should I have done?  Reporting it to the police would have accomplished nothing.  They do not view it as a crime, similar to the free killings of homosexuals and atheists.

In Pakistan, today, the going price for a child slave is $1000 US.   I have read the claim that only Christian children are stolen for the slave trade, but that is not correct.  There are not enough Christian children to supply the market.  I know numerous middle class Muslim families that hire armed guards to watch over their children.  A lot of the children end up in the carpet trade, chained or shackled to a loom.  But they can be found every where, even in a five star hotel.

Back in the early 1960�s, Algeria became independent and one of their first acts was to outlaw slavery.  It was so prevalent that a law had to be passed to ban the practice.  It seems to have worked in Algeria.  The French never were that concerned about Muslim slavery, but the British were concerned.  One of the main reasons for the British to move inland from the coast of Africa was to eliminate slavery.  Historically, the Muslims were operating out of the Sudan for Egyptian merchants.  The harvesting of slaves from the Sudan has been going on for over a thousand years and exceeds, by several orders of magnitude, the major harvesting of slaves by the Portuguese from Angola to ship to Brazil.  General Gordon; a.k.a., Chinese Gordon and Gordon of Khartoum, back in the 1800�s, was appalled by the slaving operations being conducted by the Madie (sp?), particularly the castration of all of the male captives.  Unlike me, he did something, better leadership qualities, I guess.  Out of nothing, he formed an army and fought the Madie.  The British were a little late in coming to his rescue.  The British were able to retard the slave operations, but it was never eliminated.  Today the going price of a child slave is less than $100 US.  This is due to the genocide being practiced by Sudan.

I would like to point out that no Muslim country or Muslim organization has protested this genocide, but they have protested some Danish cartoons!  Who knew so many Muslims read Danish.  Today as in the past, all of the slaves coming out of the Sudan are black and I assume that they are Christians.  Males are no longer castrated.  The only sexual mutilation being practiced is on females.

Sid

Will someone explain to me why Salvery is an inter-faith subject?

Sid

Salaam Aleikum to the friendly Muslims in this forum and thread.

Amazing how one can follow their agenda. These socalled interested people in Islam are so two-faced and with their tactics and doublestandards always wasts the time of the Muslims.

A kind brother is spending the time and going a long way to explain how the Ayaat of Allah are to be understood.

And in the end of the thread about ayah 93 in some surah the "saint" reveals his motives.

Which were to create doubt with the faith of the Muslims, to market his own disbelief in God, to test his text-book tactics on Muslims learned from his Catholic church, who are paying high price because somebody lifted the curtain from the priests' inner secrets...

Muslims wake! The socalled reformation they want is to draw you nearer doubt about your Creator and to occupy your precious time. 

USE IT INSTEAD TO READ QURAAN AND ITS SCIENCES INSTEAD OF ENGAGING IN FUTILE DISCUSSIONS AND LEARN THIS TO MUSLIMS AND MAKE ARRANGEMENTS AND OPEN-HOUSE DAYS IN YOUR CENTRES. HAVE REAL DIALOGUES WITH REAL HUMANBEINGS, WHERE THEIR FACES CAN BE SEEN AND YOU WILL SEE THEIR ENLIGHTENMENT AND HAPPINESS TO KNOW THE TRUE MESSAGE GIVEN IN THE LAST TESTAMENT -> THE QURAAN. 

The smell of a person with a bad intention can be smelled from a long distance. Muslims I urge you to purify your heart and you will be enlightened with a sharp intuition.

Peace and blessings to all muslims and guidance to the rest.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck...it IS A DUCK!  The same with slavery.  For the love of Mike, we fought a war in this country to free the slaves.....losing more men than in any other war....brother against brother.  Slavery is a grave sin.  You can call it whatever makes your conscience feel good....manservant???  Well, okay.  Are they free to leave this employment whenever they choose?  Anything less constitutes slavery.  People, ALL PEOPLE, are meant to be FREE.  It's really just as simple as that.  Slavery is degrading, dispicable, and sinful.  You cannot change that no matter how hard you may try!

God's Love to You All.

Sign*Reader,

Thanks for reading the sign correctly. That was a good response. I would be sitting at the fence.

Best Regards

BMZ

Hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided

Hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided

Hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided

"Will someone explain to me why Salvery is an inter-faith subject?"

Sid,

It is not an inter-faith subject and should not be discussed here. Perhaps it is related to the art of discussing Salver, which means a tray of gold and silver, etc., on which drinks are offered.

Hey, let�s get one thing straight.  I do not hate Muslims.  Islam is one of the major religions of the world and has done a great deal of good.  If the world practiced their religion like my Muslim friends do, then the world would be a much better place to live in.  But I am an opponent of fundamentalism, to include Jewish fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, and Muslim fundamentalism.  Hate would be too strong of a word.  The hallmark of fundamentalist thinking is � �My mind is made up.  I know the truth.  Don�t confuse me with facts�.  If that is you, I am your opponent.  I do believe that Islam is in need of a reformation.  It is a constant theme of mine.

If so many people object to the use of slavery and even the mention of slavery, then let�s do something about it.  Let�s get those references to slavery in the Koran removed or, at least, repudiated.  Let�s write letters to Imam Al-Fawzan at the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, Saudi Arabia�s highest religious body, and a professor at Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University, Saudi Arabia, and tell him please stop indorsing slavery (see above quote).  Anyone want to join in?

Sid

Sid,

Aren't you supposed to be in bed or are you an early riser?

Child labour, slavery and trade is not really a religious issue. We don't need any Fatwahs or edicts on this issue. It is good to see that the West has eradicated it, while the East is slowly doing that.

Saudi Arabia has no child labour at all. All adults, from the world over, are obediently working for the Saudis.

Besides Pakistan, India, Afghanistan and Bangladesh, you have to visit the Far East, go deep inside and see children working for Nike and other Western giant corporations. Go to Bangladesh and see 12 year olds sewing and stitching round the clock for Lee, Levis and others.

That is extreme poverty, my friend and even a ten years old child is willing to help his starving parents and siblings. It is a different issue and you are trying to lay it on religion.

Do you know the price of very young girls in the countries of former Soviet bloc and what is their current price in Israel and other advanced European countries such as UK, France, Germany and Belgium? Has this got anything to do with religion? These are social evils which come under socio-economic and hardship problems and people, who have studied the Poverty Control, are trying to solve this.

Forced child labour is a different issue and that is being eradicated by governments of countries who had it or have it.

I have dined in 5-Star hotels in Pakistan, Iran, Bangladesh, India, Sri Lanka, China,etc., and I have never seen anything like you have described. If you go to remote areas, where carpets are made or to tanneries, you will find the entire family of the poor working and you might see contributions by the little ones too.

BMZ

I know of a very good documentary some of you may find interesting. It's called "Born into Brothels".  Here is a description of it....a very good documentary.

This Oscar-winning documentary is a portrait of several unforgettable children who live in Calcutta's red-light district, where their mothers work as prostitutes. Spurred by the kids' fascination with her camera, Zana Briski, a photographer documenting life in the brothels, decides to teach them photography. As they begin to look at and record their world through new eyes, the kids awaken to their own talents and sense of worth.

Hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided

Hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided

Hanan,

I seriously don't know what your problem is for one. Two, I'm not in the mood to play childish games on the internet with you. All this back and forth posing and you call me a kid? Lady, grow up or better yet, practice what you preach and get educated about Black History by your husband. When I said indentured servitude I'm merely making political correctness of the situation. Slavery in the Middle East to a certain extent was different than slavery in the American States. I don't need your husbands ignorant laugh to educate me. If you honestly knew anything about the world (which of course you lack such a capacity to even fathom whether the world is actually spherical) then you would understand that the concept of slavery histprically appears different from culture to culture. Not only in the cultural practice of slavery but in ethics.....

Lady I'll take your advice and put you on Troll Patrol.....

ejdavid wrote: JUST FOR THE RECORD Do any of the Muslims reading this forum believe Muslims had anything to do with 9/11? Just asking....

Why do you ask that, ejdavid? OBL and his team did it and they happened to be Muslims. Muslims of the world did not do 9/11. Just clarifying.

"Does any Muslim on this forum believe the Muslim taxi drivers should pick up blind persons with seeing eye dogs?"

Yes, they should pick up blind persons with seeing dogs and also should not refuse to pick if the blind person has a blind dog.

I really enjoy reading reports from the US Media Circus.

ejdavid wrote: Yada Yada Yada Islamic Dogs and 9/11 and 'holocaust' denial are Yada Yada Yada. What is not Yada Yada Yada is the upcoming tactical nuclear attack on Iran. Mr. Super Extra Heavy Duty Islamic Holy War Against The Jews flat out says he will nuke the Jews. Bad Poker Mr. Super Extra Heavy Duty Islamic Holy War Against The Jews. Specifically....POOOOOOFFFFFF.

A nuclear Iran is not only good for the region but it is also good for the US. It will save trillions of dollars from being wasted. Right now US needs to find a way out from the Iraqi quagmire. The incumbent doesn't have much time left to start another fruitless, futile and meaningless war.

A nuclear Iran will also be good for Israel. It will stop whining and ranting. Israel will show no attitude problem and start behaving well. People in that region will praise the Lord Almighty and rejoice.

Why do you want to see people of two countries annihilated for your own pleasure and wishful thinking?

ejdavid wrote: zp Why do I ask? The answer is explicit in my question. Specifically, I have yet to encounter a single Muslim who does not deny Muslims had anything to do with 9/11. If you are Muslim, then I can not longer say that. So. Are you Muslim?

Yes! I am a Muslim.

Hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided

One thing I will say out of respect for your late husband is that I did make a fallible statement and over stepped my own boundaries. In that I do apologize to you and your late husband (May Allah's peace be upon him).

But what I will not accept is some ignorant woman who, could be way across the damn country telling me how I don't know my own history simply because the semantics of slavery (or indentured servitude). I don't see why you brought up Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton two of the most dumbest leaders. One cheats on his wife the other swindles money from the Black community....Yeah great examples to shut me up LOL.......I would look forward to the day they of all people could laugh me out of the room.....

Again Hanan, yeah you could get a slight rise out of me and unfortunately due to my environment dealing with dirty inmates all day I will concede that my temperment is definitely not where it should be. It's unfortunate that you call me a fraud (which of course is placing judgement on me anyway) and call yourself a Muslim. I know one thing even if I am wrong in what I say sometimes I know I have enough brains to not copy and paste every other article I post on this site. If you are educated (like you claim you are) please don't compare Junior College to a four-year University.

I won't turn this into a back and forth issue. Hanan, drop whatever bitterness you have for me and this country (The U.S) and keep posting whatever you're posting. It's not wroth getting worked up over it. Seriously Hanan this is the internet. You wouldn't even know me if I walked up to you in real life so why presume to judge me or even be emotional?

Hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided

Child Labour in Modern America! Is this true, ejdavid?

The link:   http://www.american-pictures.com/roots/chapter-8.htm - http://www.american-pictures.com/roots/chapter-8.htm

Chapter 8     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-03238.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-03237.htm">     The prevalence of slave camps seems to be spreading after 2000. In North Carolina I now find bars where "slave catchers" come to kidnap drunks and winos for their camps.     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00294.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01689.htm">     These camps separate and destroy the black family just as slavery has always done. Wives and children are usually not permitted in the camps. Several men I talked to had not seen their families for up to eight months - and were nervous about what the situation would be like when they saw them again.     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-02096.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01688.htm">     In other camps families live together but are so dependent on the children's wages that they can't afford to to let the children leave the fields to go to school.     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-02162.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00533.htm">     Although it was formally abolished in 1911, it is a fact that the present affluence of America was built not only on slavery and artificially low minimum wages, but also on child labor.     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00382.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00145.htm">     Even today one fourth of America's fruit is picked by children under sixteen years of age.     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-02116.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00178.htm">     It is worth remembering as we in Europe are bombarded with cheap American fruit products, that these are not only products of minimum wages usually less than half ours, but also the "grapes of wrath" of farm workers who in the off season have no social safety net like ours.     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01711.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01838.htm">     (To give Americans an idea of what can be done to fight poverty, let me mention the case of Denmark where unemployment benefits are 90% of normal salary for 2 1/2 years, there is free health care and education, rent subsidies, family allowances, nurseries, kindergartens, etc.). The cheap American fruit we are enjoying is virtually the product of slavery.     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-02115.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01687.htm">     By accident one day I discovered the name Coca-Cola on some of the trucks that drive orange juice from the migrant camps to the North, and found out that Coca-Cola, under the name of Minute Maid, owns quite a few of these slave camps.     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00311.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00383.htm">     Coca-Cola's slave camps are probably not among the worst in Florida, although many of the children suffer from universal deficiency diseases such as anemia which makes them exhausted and emaciated.     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01895.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01916.htm">     In a letter to me after my book was published Coca Cola admitted conditions were so bad, that they would start reforms. After further protests from viewers of my show, Coca Cola invited me down to see the change. If change did take place it shows what each of us can do to affect it.     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01714.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01685.htm">     In my vagabond days in the South it was more crucial for me to communicate through friendship and not incite hostility and confrontation.     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-02114.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01837.htm">     I was not always successful. In Florida I stayed with a tomato grower who said that he made a million dollars a year on migrant labor. Later he kicked me out when he discovered my photos of what he called "niggers."     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00091.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00451.htm">     - What is your main purpose? It isn't just touring.... I wasn't born yesterday... I tell you the truth, you're from that civil rights stuff up North...     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00214.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-03092.htm">   - No, I just study agriculture for a book......I got faith in people...     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01835.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-01684.htm">   - Well, If you hang around slums, that's the kind of book you're gonna have, ain't that right?  If you stay around slummy people, that's the kind of book you'll have. It depends on what kind of people you talk to. You say you talk to both whites and colored?     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00406.htm">   - I trust everybody...     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-03640.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-03022.htm">   - Well, you'll find colored people treated better here than anywhere in the States. They are happy!     http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-00448.htm"> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/pages/usa-03633.htm">   I always tried to respect the honesty of these southern racists, so when my tape recorder later revealed that in the heat of the argument I had told him a lie I felt very defeated. I had at that time no idea that my photos would one day end up in a book.   http://www.american-pictures.com/roots/chapter-7.htm - http://www.american-pictures.com/roots/index.htm - http://www.american-pictures.com/roots/chapter-9.htm -

http://www.american-pictures.com/index.html - Home

Hi BMZ, as a amatuer photographer I was very intrigued by the photos in your post, as well as it's racial and social context.  I went to the home page of this document and found an explanation of how this information is being used.  I feel (personally) that it is to continue to try to eradicate all racist activity across the country.  Most Americans readily admit there is racism by some citizens....bigotry and racism from ALL races.  It is very sad and very sinful, imho.  Anyway, here is what the home page revealed, which I believe is very positive in teaching young people especially about the effects of bigotry.  Thank you for posting these photos.

"American Pictures"
- a tool against racism

Racism in America, in Europe or universally: American Pictures is an audio-visual anti-racism program which in an effective, entertaining and moving way shows the ultimate cost of racial discrimination, segregation and ghettoization of ethnic minorities. Jacob Holdt's pictures of poverty, oppression, slavery and injustice in the black underclass are used widely for racial prejudice reduction and multicultural diversity training in universities, colleges and high schools, but are also excellent for sociology conventions and human rights seminars.

Jacob Holdt's photography of despairing poor black ghettos and mind crippling child poverty as the end result of white supremacy and institutionalized inequality and injustice - not to speak of his shocking portrayal of extremist white hate groups, Ku Klux Klan and neo Nazis and even mass murderers - seems to belong in a distant history, but is made long after the civil rights struggle. His documentary slideshow has for 25 years been the most used Black History Month events and freshman orientation programs with the longest track record ever on the American campus lecture circuit. As a former hitchhiking vagabond turned professional speaker, Danish photographer and author Jacob Holdt has become a must in race relations wherever the emphasis is on multiculturalism, diversity training and conflict resolution. 

http://www.american-pictures.com/index.html - http://www.american-pictures.com/index.html

God Bless.

Hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided

sgeorge5,

From you: "OK, I am back.  Boy � this topic has taken some convoluted turns.  First, to BMZSP about slavery not being a religious topic.  For most religions that is true, but the Wahhabi seem to disagree with your position (see above).  Al-Fawzan said in a lecture "Slavery is a part of Islam�Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam."  The Wahhabi seem to be a very fundamentalist group, but I have always found such groups to make remarks that ARE backed up the Koran, no mater how repulsive they may be to the rest of us; such as, suras 4-3, 4-24, 4-25, 23-6, 24-31, 24-58, 20-28, 33-50, 33-52, 33-55, 70-30, and there may be more.  Besides you, are there others that disagree with Imam Al-Fawzan?"

Please post Al-Fawzan's "convoluted" transcript of his lecture or refer us to the link. Besides me, you will find most Muslims disagree with Al-Fawzan but there are a few "Muslims" and some "ex-Muslims" like Ali Sina, Ibne Warraq and David Gabriel, who will surely agree with him.

The intention of posting those pictures was to show my point that the child labour is present in every part of the world, be it a rotten country or be it an advanced country.

Before putting something in writing, get your facts right and produce evidence like I did, from which no one can run away. 

Do not drift and do not open topics within a topic.

From you: "Second, about the genocide in the Sudan, I am struggling for an explanation as to why Muslim countries would bother to protest some Danish cartons, but not this black genocide commented by a Muslim country."

Janjaweeds in Sudan are exactly like the USA in Iraq, except they are black. This is a good lead for you to work on.

From you:"The only explanation I have is that slavery has existed for such a long time from that area, including currently, that most Muslims have dehumanized the blacks to make slavery more acceptable."

The only people who have demonised the blacks, are the Whites, whether they were from the USA or the West. Asians never demonised blacks as Asians had all sorts of colours for millemiums. To the white man, the black was odd, sub-human. The civilised British, the Belgians, the Dutch, the Italians and others considered the blacks as sub-humans and traded them. Aboriginees were hunted in Australia right in the beginning by the British pioneeers.  Period.

From you: "Someone previously, made the comment that those people had to educated or civilized, so why not through slavery.  Where have I heard that before?"

You must have heard it from the mainstearm Europeans, whoelse?  That is the only place it could have come from, otherwise apartheid would not have lasted in South Africa and Rhodesia in the most modern and civilised times. 

Hanan,

From you:"This line is copied from one of the many anti-Islam/anti-Muslim sites such as Jihad Watch/Jimmy Watch, etc."

Absolutely correct. 

Patty,

You are an angel.

The post was directed to the gentle person who insinuated as if Child Labour is an integral part of Islamic culture. It was just to shake him up.

The good folks of the USA fought battles with their own bad folks. I am aware of that. Had they not done it, the US would not have been what it is today.

Thanks & Best Regards

BMZ

Hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided

Sid,

From you: "No one has commented on the Sudan genocide.  I am waiting."

I did. I append below for an easy reference. According to US, only Iraqis should be able to manage their affairs. As such, only the Sudanese should manage that affair which is deplorable. Sudan has to handle it. Another alternative is that US takes this responsibility upon it's shoulders and goes into Sudan to save the people in the same manner as it saved the Iraqis.

By the way, is the Congress fully aware of the plight of the poor Sudanese people in Darfur. I shall be grateful, if the US goes in.

From you: "Second, about the genocide in the Sudan, I am struggling for an explanation as to why Muslim countries would bother to protest some Danish cartons, but not this black genocide commented by a Muslim country."

Janjaweeds in Sudan are exactly like the USA in Iraq, except they are black. This is a good lead for you to work on.

BMZ

Hold fast to the rope of Allah, and be not divided

Here is an article on the situation in Dafur, and some of the agencies which are providing extremely urgent humanitarian aid to those who need it most.  I felt you may be interested.

sgeorge5 wrote: Hanan, your mind is made up.  You do not want to be confused with the facts.  It does not matter what I say, you are going to have to research this yourself.  The first time I ran into this attitude was when I was discussing history with a Muslim, about what caused Genghis Khan to invade the Muslim world.  It happened to be the beheading of three of the Khan�s ambassadors to Samarkand.  That caused the Khan to come out of retirement to make war on Islam.  The person I was discussing this with did not believe it, flat out, did not believe it.  I am some what of an amateur historian and know what I am talking about, but realized that this man was going to have to discover this knowledge for himself.

All I say to an amateur historian to refrain from  creating  theories based on some friends who are not knowledgeable  in the subjects.

Genghis' military campaign just not covered Khwarzam territory but also China, Russia and parts of Europe and was a short lived empire. I consider it an addition to the Muslim's gene pool check that after the Mongols defeat at battle of Ayn Jalut,  whoever survived in the area became Muslim. Then their descendants produced  great  dynasties  e.g.  the greatest military commander Tamerlane and Babur and his Mugal empire you care to remember.

sgeorge5 wrote: A good friend of mine is a Muslim, living in Hamburg, Germany.  He does not believe that man has landed on the moon.  He is going to have to discover that fact for himself.  I am told many Muslims do not believe that man has landed on the moon.  It is fact, but I do not want to waste my time with them.

I won't worry about them,  as long as they don't end up believing in Santa Clause

sgeorge5 wrote: told many Muslims that the Koran indorses slavery and have given them the same references given here.  But, will they read the Koran to check it out �NO.  Don�t believe me.  Don�t believe Al-Fawzan.  Check it out for yourself.  Make up your own mind.

You have been hung up on Al-Fawzan sitting in the US, what is the connection? Have you read the context of the revelations in Quraan?

I dare you read  LA Times  INVESTIGATION on GATES FOUNDATION and it's hypocritical philanthropic work in Africa and other parts of the world and respond.
  

sgeorge5 wrote: No one has commented on the Sudan genocide.  I am waiting.

I have posted previously on this subject a while back.  Sudan is CIA's instigated,funded , perpetuated drama. The seeds  were sowed in early 70's.  There is no fix for it as long as there is some oil under Sudan soil and there are ignorant enslaved souls are to be killed. Who cares about the black African lives as long as the or US companies get the control of the black gold.

PATTY; U 2:

DON'T FORGET TO READ THE RELATED LATIMES ARTICLES STARTED YESTERDAY, THEY MIGHT SURPRISE YOU.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gates8jan08,0,7911824.story?coll=la-home-headlines - MONEY CLASHES WITH MISSION

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,6827615.story - DARK CLOUDS

OK, I�ve got some free time.

You have been hung up on Al-Fawzan sitting in the US, what is the connection? Have you read the context of the revelations in Quraan?

You are probably right about the hang up, but see below.  Give me the Sura and I�ll read it.

I dare you read  LA Times  INVESTIGATION on GATES FOUNDATION and it's hypocritical philanthropic work in Africa and other parts of the world and respond.

Ok, I scanned them and that seems like a new topic.

You are probably correct about Al-Fawzan not being that important, but tell me, how popular are the Wahhabis?  Do they represent 10% of Islam or 50% or what?  All of my Muslim friends have nothing good to say about them.  But the mosques in Houston and DC (the only mosques I have been in, one each) seem to have a lot of their writings.  

That did not work.  I have to attach a file.  How do I do that?  Windows XL will not let me copy and paste this scanned document by Al-Fawzan .  the part that guy is looking for is in Arabic.

bmzsp wrote: The link: http://www.american-pictures.com/roots/chapter-8.htm - http://www.american-pictures.com/roots/chapter-8.htm

I look at those pictures with disbelieve. I won't be surprise if that is happening in the third world, but!