Proof from Bible that Jesus never died
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Topic: Proof from Bible that Jesus never died
Posted By: Arab
Subject: Proof from Bible that Jesus never died
Date Posted: 06 January 2007 at 8:32pm
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Here are four books which you can read online, they are written in simple terms, easy to understand by everyone. They pove from the Bible that Christ never died, and that is also what the Quran says. http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/Books/books/christ.html - http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/Books/books/christ.html |
Replies:
Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 07 January 2007 at 10:15pm
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Proof from the Quran that Jesus died: Surah Al-Imran: "And Muhammad is only an apostle, all of the (other) apostles have passed away before him: if, then, he dies or is slain, will you turn about on your heels" (Q3:144 Asad's translation)? |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 07 January 2007 at 10:56pm
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lol thats a mistake in the translation. The Quran strictly says that Jesus was not Crusified. It doesnt say ALL. Neither does the Quran, the Arabic which is the original. The Quran is no shabby book that you can take verses from it to support your claim like I just did with the Bible. Jesus said LIKE JONAH WAS SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE. What was Jonah? Dead or alive? You say no he was emphasising the time factor, well, did he fullfill that? Johna peace be upon him was three days and three nights, Jesus wasnt.
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Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 07 January 2007 at 10:58pm
| I have never herd of an al sad translation in the first place. Read the good translations not the so called asad. |
Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 07 January 2007 at 11:49pm
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"it doesnt say ALL. Neither does the Quran, the Arabic which is the
original. The Quran is no shabby book that you can take verses from it
to support your claim like I just did with the Bible." I think you are confusing "shabbiness of the book" with poor understanding of the book. The title of your thread is: "Proof from Bible that Jesus never died." Then you say: Quran strictly says that Jesus was not Crusified. First, I think you are confusing death with crucifixion. Second, if Jesus never died, doesn't that make him eternal? ;) A quote from first of those links: what God Almighty had commanded them to say in the Holy Quran. As Muslims they had no choice. They had said in so many words -"WE MUSLIMS BELIEVE, THAT JESUS WAS ONE OF THE MIGHTIEST MESSENGERS OF GOD, THAT HE WAS THE CHRIST, THAT HE WAS BORN MIRACULOUSLY - WITHOUT ANY MALE INTERVENTION (which many modern-day Christians do not believe today), THAT HE GAVE LIFE TO THE DEAD BY GOD'S PERMISSION, AND THAT HE HEALED THOSE BORN BLIND AND THE LEPERS BY GOD'S PERMISSION. IN FACT NO MUSLIM IS A MUSLIM IF HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS!" From the Quran: �How can you disbelieve in Allah? Don�t you realize that you were dead and He gave you life? Then He will give you death, then again will bring you to life (on the Day of resurrection) and then unto Him you will return�. (2:27) |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 09 January 2007 at 5:37am
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Since you're a Christian, you're free to believe that Jesus is God sicne thats what you want to believe. But dont try to justify it by the Quran that Jesus was God. As for u saying "if Jesus didnt die doesnt that make him eternal"? Thats why he has to die, thats why he is coming back according to Islam, because he never died. Please dont turn this into a debate of Jesus being God. If u want to debate Jesus being God or not then start a new topic and I would be glad to debate you about that. By all means, start a thread. |
Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 09 January 2007 at 8:44am
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You accuse me of believing, trying to justify it by the Quran, and of trying to turn this into a debate of Jesus being God and then offer to debate it with me on another thread. Ironically, you are the one who gave evidence to support that he did not die, while I gave evidence to support that he did!!! If you say that he did not die, it is logical to ask you if you are saying he is eternal or immortal. If, as you contend, he didn't die but must come back to die, then where do you think he is now? Is he unique (if so, what makes him unique) or are there others who, like him, did not die but must return to die? |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 09 January 2007 at 1:36pm
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Jesus was rescued by Allah from the crusifiction because God is merciful so He didnt allow such a barbaric thing to be done to His messenger. Jesus is in heaven, yes he is unique meaning he never died and went to heaven, he will come back, and unite the world and die because we all have to die Let's look at verse 4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."
sorry if i was a bit harsh in the begening. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 09 January 2007 at 3:52pm
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Hello Arab, Muhammad Asad, an ex-Jew was formerly known as Leopold Weiss. He has done an excellent translation of Qur'aan in English with some short commentaries separately. His translation is one of the best. Hope you can get a copy in Kuwait. Salaam Alaikum BMZ
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Arab wrote:Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 09 January 2007 at 4:39pm
| Dont u see the mistake hes made in the translation? |
Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 09 January 2007 at 7:01pm
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Arab, Jesus was rescued by Allah from the crusifiction because God is merciful so He didnt allow such a barbaric thing to be done to His messenger. Jesus is in heaven, yes he is unique meaning he never died and went to heaven, he will come back, and unite the world and die because we all have to die. That sounds a whole lot like you believe he is God, whether you actually come out and say it, or not. So, of all the prophets who have been beaten, imprisoned, tortured and killed, Jesus is the only one that God had mercy on? (Personally, I think it would have been more more merciful to let him die.) Anyway, it sounds like you think even God exalts Jesus above everyone else--all the other messengers who were brutally abused and the thousands of little children, especially babies, who suffer torture and crucifixion, some for years. Surely, you are not suggesting that Jesus' uniqueness is because he is the only one not born in sin. sorry if i was a bit harsh in the begening. I found it interesting, not offensive....so no problem. You are not the first to come out fighting because of what you think I believe. But, you are the first to apologize for it. I appreciate that and respect you for it. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 09 January 2007 at 11:06pm
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Please point out the mistake/s and we can discuss. |
Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 2:42am
I know this is Christians and muslims dogma for the son of Mary living in heaven. Here is for what he said in below ayah: He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet, (19:30) The almsgiving above is Zakat, a yearly tax from one year income. What kind of work he does now while still living that generates a yearly income, in which the zakat is compulsory for him? And to whom he give that zakat - in heaven? |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 2:44am
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No, I dont believe he is God of course not that would be blasphemy. He was rescued by God, for one main reason which is to come back later on and guide the world as God's prophet. Its what God wanted to happen. In end, God has mercy on everyone, just in different ways. As for being born in Islam, maybe you havent herd this but in Islam we dont believe in the original sin.. We believe you are responsible for your own actions. The original sin simply makes no sence, if your father, God forbids, steals something, ca you be sent to jail for it? No, that isnt fair. Exactly, thats what Islam says. If you sin, you repent and Allah will forgive you, He is the most merciful. He doesnt kill his son in order to forgive you for something you never commited ! (the original sin). We believe that God forgave Adam and Eve and that they payed for what they did by being sent down here to earth and that was that. We also believe that everyone is born innocent, common sence, how can a baby not be innocent? Just look how cute they are ;p Allah tells us in the Holly Quran that they (the jews) planned, but He also planned, and He is the best of all planers. That they planned to kill Jesus Christ peace be upon him, but Allah also had a plan, and what is mans plans compared to God, nothing. Thanks.
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Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 2:48am
| Superme the almsgiving or the zakat, is to be payed to the poor and it is obligatory. Since Jesus is in heaven, there are no poor, so he doesnt have to pay anything since he cant. And Allah knows best. Its like God telling you that as long as you're alive you have to go to church or go pray 5 times a day in the mosque etc, but common sence when you're in heaven, after you die and are ressurected, you wont have to do these things because you would be in heaven but still you would be alive, but you wont have to do these things. |
Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 10:05am
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No, I dont believe he is God of course not that would be blasphemy. Yes, I was surprised that you made him sound like God or a some half-God. He was rescued by God, for one main reason which is to come back later on and guide the world as God's prophet. So, you don't believe that Muhammed is the last prophet, but that Jesus will come after him? Just Jesus, or do you think there will be other prophets to come besides him? As for being born in Islam, maybe you havent herd this but in Islam we dont believe in the original sin.. We believe you are responsible for your own actions. The original sin simply makes no sence, if your father, God forbids, steals something, ca you be sent to jail for it? No, that isnt fair. Fair or not, many a child has paid dearly for the sins of his parents--the parents take drugs, and the child is born deformed....the parents are promiscuous, and the child is born with aids. But, no, these are not penalities imposed by man on the child, but by the course of nature. I think your topic of Jesus' dying/not dying is similar to Jesus' words: "Seeing, they see not, and hearing, they hear not". |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 10:13am
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As for the topic, i have an interesting dialogue about this, will post later.
-------------  ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 11:11am
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"So, you don't believe that Muhammed is the last prophet, but that Jesus will come after him? Just Jesus, or do you think there will be other prophets to come besides him?" Mohammed is the last prophet peace be upon him. Jesus was before Mohammed of course, so its not as if he's a new prophet peace be upon him. So Mohammed is the last prophet but Jesus is coming back. Lol I dont know if you get what Im saying? No, there is no prophet after Mohammed to be sent. Jesus was already sent before so its as if hes a new prophet, hes an old one. So Mohammed is the last prophet in the sence that he is the last one to be given a message by God to convey to the people.
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Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 11:36am
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Mohammed is the last prophet peace be upon him. Jesus was before
Mohammed of course, so its not as if he's a new prophet peace be upon
him. So Mohammed is the last prophet but Jesus is coming back. Lol I
dont know if you get what Im saying? No, there is no prophet after
Mohammed to be sent. Jesus was already sent before so its as if hes a
new prophet, hes an old one. So Mohammed is the last prophet in the
sence that he is the last one to be given a message by God to convey to
the people. That's very interesting. It agrees with what Jesus said--that he was the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end and, in another place that the first would be last. Do you think Muhammed is Jesus? --amissing part of Jesus? Or, what? How would explain how Muhammed and Jesus are both the last? |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 12:31pm
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sorry I ment to say "so its not as if hes a new prophet, hes an old one". Lol Jesus never said he was the alpha and the omega. What you are quoting is the book of rev which is nothing more then a dream John had and wrote down. In the book it speaks of creatures with eyes on the inside and eyes on the outside. Sometimes you have a little too much to eat and that happens.
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Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 1:36pm
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Lol Jesus never said he was the alpha and the omega. What you are
quoting is the book of rev which is nothing more then a dream John had
and wrote down. In the book it speaks of creatures with eyes on the
inside and eyes on the outside. Sometimes you have a little too much to
eat and that happens. Surely, you are not suggesting that Muhammed had had a little too much to eat--are you? YUSUFALI: Remember in thy dream Allah showed them to thee as few: if He had shown them to thee as many, ye would surely have been discouraged, and ye would surely have disputed in (your) decision; but Allah saved (you): for He knoweth well the (secrets) of (all) hearts. PICKTHAL: When Allah showed them unto thee (O Muhammad) in thy dream as few in number, and if He had shown them to thee as many, ye (Muslims) would have faltered and would have quarrelled over the affair. But Allah saved (you). Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men). SHAKIR: When Allah showed them to you in your dream as few; and if He had shown them to you as many you would certainly have become weak-hearted and you would have disputed about the matter, but Allah saved (you); surely He is the Knower of what is in the breasts. |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 2:46pm
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The verse you quoted says that it is a dream. The book of rev doesnt. The majority of the christians dont know this, they just follow it blindly. And whats wrong with the verse you quoted? All im saying is that look it was a dream, Mohammed never had a dream and said that it was the word of God and added it to the Quran. The Quran was a verbal revelation, thats what distincts it from other books such as the Holly Bible. The Bible was, according to your own scholars an inspirational revelation. meaning it was the word of man admitting it is his own words just claiming to be inspired by God. In the Gospel of Matthew it says that after the crusifiction, and only the gospel of Matthew mentions this, that people came out of there graves and went into the streets. Period. No more explanation. Where are they? What happened to them? Stories are half told with no explanation, both in the NT and the OT. We have tafseer, scholars who tell us what every single verse in the QUran means, why it was revealed etc. Not only that Christians dont have this, but I bet theyre ashamed to do so because of the many erotic stories, absurdities and so on in the Bible. An Example:
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Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 3:27pm
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SAY: "O PEOPLE OF THE BOOK! |
Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 3:52pm
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The verse you quoted says that it is a dream. The book of rev doesnt. http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=1&verse=10&version=kjv#10 - on
the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, That's like someone saying, "I am hungry." and another person asks you why you didn't give him food, you say you didn't know he needed any because he didn't say, "I need food". The Quran was a verbal revelation, thats what distincts it from other
books such as the Holly Bible. The Bible was, according to your own
scholars an inspirational revelation. meaning it was the word of man
admitting it is his own words just claiming to be inspired by God. I am stunned to hear that you don't think the Quran is inspired by God! We have tafseer, scholars who tell us what every single verse in the QUran means, why it was revealed etc. Well, I can certainly see, from your post, that there are those who need someone to tell them what they think things mean. Not only that Christians dont have this... You are obviously just parroting what you have heard someone say without checking the facts for yourself. Every religion has scholars who expound on the meaning of their holy books. Surely, you have heard at least heard of the Jews' Talmad. And, the reason there are so many versions of the Christian Bible is because these scholars don't all agree. Similarly, there are disagreements between the versions of the Quran--you even declared one to be of lesser quality which bmzsp says is one of the best! Muslims, to my knowledge, do not have the equivalent of a Strong's Concordance, which gives the original word which was translated into English and defines the original word for those who know that the meanings of words change over a course of time. but I bet theyre ashamed to do so because of the many erotic stories, absurdities and so on in the Bible That sounds like a kid who searches under "human reproduction" in an encyclopedia because, to him, the pictures are erotic, pornographic. They are anything but that to the serious student. An Example: Okay, I have to ask. How would you describe God? Do you really think He is human? It doesn't sound as though you have read much of either the Quran or the Bible. Imo, you sound more like a Jew....possibly a Messianic Jew than a Muslim. |
Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 10 January 2007 at 11:15pm
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Brother if you read that ayah it says: hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive, (19:31) If he does not pray and pay zakat than he is dead. If he is alive than his condition (being alive) is the same state as every other Prophets, which is Islamic creed. Are all the Prophets now in the conscious state? Rosulallah met them all in Mi'raj, did he not? |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 1:58am
I was in the spirit can have several meanings. Im sure not everyone who reads this understands he was dreaming.
What Im saying is that it wasnt an inspirational revelation (that God inspires people to start writing). It was a literal verbal revelation. God put his words into Mohammeds mouth through the angel Gabriel. God tells him "Say" Mohammed says "Say". "He is Allah the One and Only." Mohammed says "He is Allah the One and Only". God tells him (through the angel Gabriel) "He begetteth not nor is He begotten". Mohammed says "He begetteth not nor is He begotten". "And there is none like unto Him". And Mohammed says it. This wasnt the case with the Bible as you know. This is what I ment.
As for the translations, the translations are not infallable, the original Arabic is. And we have it, so anyone can go back and check.As for the Christian scholars, yes you have them for interpretation, but where does there interpretation come from? Who taught them? And who taugh those who taugh those who taught them? Did Jesus? He never read the NT we have today so how could he explain it? So it wasnt Jesus, who did? This is my point, they interpret it by what they think it means, Jesus never told thim that look this verse is reffering to so and so, and this means so and so. The Quran, we were told by the prophet peace be upon him and his companions may Allah be pleased with them what the verses mean etc.
There is none like unto Him. Far exhalted, and to if you want to understand more just read His 99 names/attributes.
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Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 10:16am
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I was in the spirit can have several meanings. Im sure not everyone who reads this understands he was dreaming. Everything can have several meanings. I'm quite confident that never does everyone get the same understanding from reading anything. What Im saying is that it wasnt an inspirational revelation (that God inspires people to start writing). It was a literal verbal revelation. I hope that means that you recognize that God is not limited in how He gives revelation. I take it that you do value the verbal revelation over spiritual encounters with angels, visions, etc. I wouldn't take issue with that. Personally, I prefer seeing over hearing, but I wouldn't argue with anyone who prefers hearing over seeing. A good teacher will teach to the pupil's strength--that is, use visual illustrations for the visual learner but speeches/lectures for the auditory learner. As for the translations, the translations are not infallable, the original Arabic is. The written word is a symbol, as is the spoken word. Even though someone translates it into a language with which you are familiar, when you read or hear it, you, again, translate it according to your understanding. That is how not everyone has the same understanding even though the say the same words. There is none like unto Him. Far exhalted, and to if you want to understand more just read His 99 names/attributes. I understand that. I was asking what that meant to you. It sounds (from what you said about the passage from Isaiah) like you either think He is human or that He cannot relate to humans. I didn't know which, so I asked you to clarify your understanding. |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 11:12am
| So you do believe that the Bible was inspired by God? As for the passage of Isaiah, im saying God doesnt take a razor and shave for people. If He wanted there hair to fall, he orders it and it falls. |
Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 12:30pm
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So you do believe that the Bible was inspired by God? Yes. Once you understand the Quran, you will be able to see its truths everywhere you look. That's the reason it teaches you to learn about creation. The problem is not a lack of God's hand at work, but of man not being able to see God's hand in a work--man not understanding what he is looking at or how God works. As for the passage of Isaiah, im saying God doesnt take a razor and shave for people. If He wanted there hair to fall, he orders it and it falls. And, if God wanted man to fly, He would have made man with wings, huh? Or, if God wanted you to be a man, He would have commanded it, and "pop" there you are--a man....no time in your mother's womb? And, if God wants you to be in heaven, He would have put you there to start with, huh? Sorry, I don't believe in magic. I don't think God wants us to think He is a magician. If He did, He wouldn't bother to reveal anything to us. |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 12:38pm
I get mixed messages from you  what do you mean once you understand the Quran, your not a Muslim. No God isnt a magician but there are certain things which arent befitting in His magesty that He should do. Shaving the hair of the legs is an off limit, it is disrespectful. Both the Bible we have today and the QUran cant be from God because they are different. As Muslims we have to believe in the bible, unfortanetly it has been corrupted. The Bible and the Quran are different, read my post bible or Quran facts dont lie for some of there differences.
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Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 1:43pm
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I get mixed messages from you what do you mean once you understand the Quran, your not a Muslim. What??? Is that what you "read"? Look again. I said, Once you understand the Quran, you will be able to see its truths everywhere you look." Are you correcting me--telling me that once you understand the Quran, you're not a Muslim? If so, I disagree. I think that's when you become more of a Muslim than ever! No God isnt a magician but there are certain things which arent befitting in His magesty that He should do. That reminds me of when I was young and a friend told how babies are made. I swore that was wrong because I knew without a doubt that my mother would never do anything like that. (I found out later that the friend was right.) Shaving the hair of the legs is an off limit, it is disrespectful. That is exactly the reason I swore my mother would never do what my friend said. I thought it was a heck of lot worse than just disrespectful, though. Both the Bible we have today and the QUran cant be from God because they are different. Why not? Because God only speaks Arabic? Or, because you see a contradiction between them? If it's the latter, remember, you just posted what you "saw" in my post which is different from what I said and totally opposite of what I believe. You "saw" something that was not there--a contradiction (to what I meant and my belief) and even to the words I used. That should prove to you that contradictions that don't exist can seem to be very real. If I said, "the child in me wanted to fight", you might assume I am pregnant with child....or, maybe swallowed a child whole...or any number of things. Then, if someone told you differently, you would see a contradiction--not between what I said and what the other person said, but between what you "heard" me say and what I meant. ...read my post bible or Quran facts dont lie for some of there differences. I know they seem different. I've seen contradictions within just the Bible, itself......as I have within the Quran, itself. But, the contradictions disappeared as my understanding grew. Now, I see no contradictions within either or between the two. |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 1:52pm
| by believe in the bible I mean the one given to Jesus. |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 1:55pm
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Oh, now I get your point, sorry I misunderstood the entire thing lol.
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Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 2:06pm
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by believe in the bible I mean the one given to Jesus. I don't think Jesus got a Bible. When he read scripture in the synagogue, he read from the scrolls they already had. He did elaborate on the meaning of what they already knew....and those who understand that he was not contradicting the accepted scrolls received it and became his followers. He took what they had, broke it down, blessed it (didn't criticize it, but enhanced it) and when he gave it back to them, what was once just enough for a little boy was enough to feed a multitude and have plenty left over! Oh, now I get your point, sorry I misunderstood the entire thing lol. No problem. See how easy it is to misunderstand? |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 2:08pm
lol of course it is. 
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Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 3:22pm
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lol of course it is. Unfortunately, few seem to be willing to slow down and take a second look (or listen) before drawing a line in the sand and daring someone to step over it. No matter what prophet comes or what Holy book one honors, they end up being abused by the unwise (foolish) or proud (already know all there is to know) or slothful (too lazy to seek wisdom). Here is a verse in the Quran that has been abused: "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God" (Qur'an 5:73). It certainly is blasphemy to say that God is one of three in a Trinity. But, not knowing what "blasphemy" means (only knowing that it is really, really bad and wanting to avoid being guilty of it), they end up doing the one thing that they fear most and don't even know it! If they knew what "blasphemy" meant, they would understand why God is not one in three and why it is blasphemous to say that He is. And, they would also realize that it is even more blasphemous to say that there is no trinity because, besides blaspheming the Quran, they reduce God to idol. They move from blaspheming God's Word to blaspheming God! |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 11 January 2007 at 6:59pm
I think I will create a new thread on the original topic again, since this thread has gone else where 3 pages ago.  ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: covered
Date Posted: 24 January 2007 at 9:35pm
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 25 January 2007 at 3:24am
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Simply sister because we dont believe in the original sin. We believe God judges us by what we do not wby what Adam and Eve did. We believe that God forgave Adam and Eve and that God is Mercifull and forgives our sins if we repent and mean it, so why would He have to sacrifice Jesus in order to forgive us? He wouldnt. If we believed in the original sin it would make sence that God would sacrific Jesus since God had to find a way to forgive us. Common sence, Jesus didnt do anything why shoul dhe be buchered, this isnt fair. God is fair, this isnt. This isnt even rational. If your father steals (God forbid) can we send you to jail? No. Thats what Islam says. We believe God saved Jesus from the crusifixion since God is Mercifull. Again, common sence and complete rationality.
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Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 25 January 2007 at 3:34am
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The original sin is even rejected in the OT. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son (the progeny of Adam) shall not bear the iniquity of the father (Adam), neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Ezekiel 18:20-21 (emphasis is mine) This is Islam idea of salvation, you be good =) even a smile is considered charity in Islam. |
Posted By: covered
Date Posted: 25 January 2007 at 11:00am
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I can see I am gonna have to start a thread on the whole topic of why it was needed for Jesus to pay for our sins. Which could take me some time. It's whole lotta writin'. So I think right now I will get dinner goin' and when I get a minute today, I will start a thread on orignal sin. Also the mercy of God and how even in the OT how God worked things.
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Posted By: covered
Date Posted: 25 January 2007 at 8:16pm
I had hoped to get a chance to post a thread on "original sin" today. But to no avail. The scripture you quoted when taken out of context, as you have, comes of meaning what you "think" it means. But if you were to read the whole chapter, you would find that God is lecturing Israel on their rebellious ways and the fact that they like so many people today blame their upbringing and their forefathers for their own sins. God is letting them know there, that they are each responsible for their own actions and they need to own up to it, and pointing the finger at the previous generations. It's not about original sin, or the lack thereof, but about how they suffer the consequences of their own sins. They were going through a terrible time at that point and blame their forefathers for it. |
So I will simply address this at the moment.Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 6:12am
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You are right, covered. The Jews were so rebellious and sinned so much against God that in their Holy Books, God spoke to them in their own arrogant style of language, which they could comprehend. Israel was called a whore and the kingdom was compared with a whoredom. |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 7:57am
This is not quite correct. The generation asking the question, " The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: This was a question regarding their "fathers'" sins that had lead to captivity, and they wanted to know if they would continue paying for their "fathers' sins". This is the context. And Ezekiel quotes Jeremiah, 29 "In those days people will no longer say, 30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes�his own teeth will be set on edge. Jeremiah 31:29-30 The point is that if the fathers ate sour grapes, then do the children's teeth pay for it? The answer is no, and no one but the person who sins will pay for the sin. The people asking the question are not blaiming their problems on their fathers, they are asking if they will be blamed for what their fathers have done. The entire passage of Ezekiel 18 brings this point across. That is the context. Not being blamed for someones sin.
Actually, it is about original sin. Original sin, according to church doctrine, is a state that we live in such that the sin of Adam is placed on his children. So if Adam ate sour grapes, do his children's teeth pay for it? Ezekiel 18 says no.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: covered
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 6:48pm
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Your understanding is close, but not quite. Their father's sins they were praying for was to be relieved of the punishment that they were suffering from. They weren't realizing that it was their own sin's they needed to confess and repent of in order to gain that relief.
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Posted By: covered
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 6:51pm
Thank you for seeing that. God has been known to rebuke people with their own words, kind of like mocking. I hesitate to say that, but sometimes it seems to be the only way to get a point across to somebody. As we do with other's. |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 7:24pm
| Covered, u consider the original sin to be rational? How can u follow a Bible (no disrespect but I have to know) which has so many errors and contradictions and unscientific facts and most of what has been written in it isnt even known to have been written by whom? |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 26 January 2007 at 9:04pm
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Their fathers sins they were praying for? To be relieved of the punishment that they were suffering from? Cover, you just made that up. There is nothing in Ezekiel 18 that suggests what you have just tried to say. I am left to gather that as of yesterday, you had never actually read Ezekiel 18. You do understand that his audience was in exhile? You do understand "The Fathers eat sour grapes and their Children's teeth are set on edge"? This is the entire piece: 1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: 3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son�both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die. 5 "Suppose there is a righteous man 6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines 7 He does not oppress anyone, 8 He does not lend at usury 9 He follows my decrees 10 "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things [b] 11 (though the father has done none of them): 12 He oppresses the poor and needy. 13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest. 14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things: 15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines 16 He does not oppress anyone 17 He withholds his hand from sin [c] 19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. 21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? 24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. 25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=18&version=31 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter= 18&version=31
Where on earth in this piece can you find the cryptic statement you made, "Their father's sins they were praying for was to be relieved of the punishment that they were suffering from.".????? You do realize that the audience was the generation from those who had sinned and were exhiled? They were not praying for their parents, they were affraid they would have to continue paying for their parent's sin. Also, you do realize that this is a proof text used in the Jewish faith to show that original sin is not biblical? I am certinaly puzzled as to your interpretation, as I have found nothing in the text to promote it. Regards ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 27 January 2007 at 7:46am
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Errors and contradictions: And so some believe that with the quran ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: covered
Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 11:39am
Yes I do understand that his audience was in exile AND that they remained in exile because of their own sins. And honey, I have read the entire bible from front to back more than a few times. |
Posted By: covered
Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 12:08pm
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As for your accusation of the bible having all sort of errors in it, I have been well versed in what non-believers call contradictions, errors, and unscientific facts. And let me say this, what you ascertain is false. And I could just as easily say much about the Koran, but I have found these sort of debates to be nothing more that mud slinging matches that help neither party understand the other any better.
Besides, I met Jesus Himself, literally. |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 28 January 2007 at 4:07pm
| Literally :o? |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 29 January 2007 at 12:54pm
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Covered, I think I know where you're going with this. However, you said: "Besides, I met Jesus Himself, literally." May I ask where and when? The Bible states we will not see God (Jesus is God in the Christian faith, remember) until we get to Heaven. I'm anxiously awaiting your answer. And I'm praying against prayer (gulp) that you are NOT referring to the Eucharist! God's Peace.
------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 29 January 2007 at 12:57pm
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Hi Arab! You stated this: "most of what has been written in it isnt even known to have been written by whom?" We know when the words were written, and we know who wrote them. Because we believe, and we have great faith! Also, it has been studied by the greatest scholars and scientists in the world. We have no doubts as to the authenticity of the Holy Bible. Blessings. ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Seeker of Truth
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 7:57am
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Greetings and Peace All! I havent read every post in this thread,but just wanted to say something..I studied the Judeo-Christian Scrpitures for years when I was a Christian and always had questions about the Bible that no one really could answer and one of them was concerning this very topic.] My question was,in Matthew 12:40 its says.."For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." So why does it say in Mark 16:1-2 "And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him." "And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun." when talking about the resurrection,that Jesus(pbuh) rose from the dead on Sunday?There's no way you can count 3 days and 3 nights from Friday evening until Sunday at sunrise? The only reply I ever got was what one here calls beating around the bush;they would say something like "Well its figurative and only implies that Jesus would be in the grave for 3 days or parts". Uh no,it says 3 days and 3 nights(which coincidentally equals 72 hrs,not 24,not 36,not 48).So Jesus was suppose to have said the only sign would be that of Jonah,but according to the same bible he was risen before that time period ended,which would have been just before sunset on Monday,if he was buried on Friday just before sunset. So we have one big contradiction right there,which concerns the very Messiahship of Jesus and the very formation of Christianity from a Biblical account,but people still believe it. How am I to believe that Jesus(pbuh) said this and then believe that he didnt fullfill that prophecy(according to the bible he was in the grave 2 nights(friday and saturday) and 1 whole day(sturday),remember its believed that he was buried just before night on friday,was in the grave all of saturday and rose just before sunrise early on sunday,so not all of friday or sunday),and still believe that he rose from the dead and that he is the son of God? I for one cannot believe this based on the contradictions.This is just one reason I have began to study Islaam.And there are many other contradictions,but most just over look them..
PEACE Jerry Also to ponder,all scriptures that say God has a son,or that God is more than one contradict these: Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:" Mrk 12:9 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:" Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
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Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 8:13am
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Hi Jerry, "So we have one big contradiction right there,which concerns the very Messiahship of Jesus and the very formation of Christianity from a Biblical account,but people still believe it." People believe it because they never read. Only those who have read and studied thoroughly would question. You did it. Not a single Christian friend has ever bothered to read the Jewish Holy Scriptures which have been there for centuries before OT was copied from them and have not compared to see the differences. The Jews could never find Messiah (Jesus) prophesised in their Holy Scriptures but the Chrsitians found Jesus in almost all chapters of the Jewish Holy Scriptures copied, edited, re-written and named as the Old Testament, the name having been coined by the people who formed the New Testament. |
Posted By: Seeker of Truth
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 8:52am
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Hello bmzsp
True.
True
TRUE
PEACE Jerry |
Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 10:42am
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Welcome to the discussions, Jerry (Seeker of Truth). Frater BMZ,
And then there are those who have read, studied thoroughly, questioned and still believe. One need only do a Google search on this particular apparent contradiction (Matt 12:40) to see that others (Christians) have noticed and at least to their minds have satisfactorily resolved the problem.
False
False. Early Christianity began as a sectarian controversy within Judaism (which, following the destruction of the Temple by Titus, itself morphed into its current Rabbinical form) and is distinguished by those who recognize Jesus as the promised Messiah and those who do not. Plenty did and do, regardless of their race or tribe.
True. He was recognized both in scripture and in the flesh by those who later, at
Copied, yes, that's what scribes do (or did). Edited, to be proved. Until I am shown otherwise, I assume that Best regards, Serv |
. Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 8:37pm
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Very good response, Servetus. I also think of Josephus, who was a Jew who lived just 30+ years following the crucifixion of Jesus. His writings are also very well studied and acknowledge who Jesus was. Has anyone ever read Josephus and the Jewish Antiquities? If you are interested in studying the ancient documents, this is an excellent place to start. And of course, the Latin Vulgate (available in English) is also a very good learning tool. I have to agree that it was the job for the scribes to translate, and their work in this area was outstanding. They were not doing this to change the meaning(s) at all, but to make the scriptures easier to understand. God's Peace. ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: saomai
Date Posted: 04 February 2007 at 6:41am
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Ok to my muslim friends out there - GET CLEAR and CLEARLY explain in detail from Quran to Hadith why Jesus did not die and the accompanying islamic thoughts and thinking. How on earth do any of you propose to help a christian understand your line of thinking when you are all over the place in total inconsistency????? What a disgrace! Here you have opportunity to teach islamic thoughts & beliefs and instead you ramble on senselessly!!! |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 04 February 2007 at 7:22am
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Brother Serv, It was an excellent response and I have a feeling that Patty read it too fast. Serv, Your comment on Matthew 12:40 was great. "Early Christianity began as a sectarian controversy within Judaism." Yes, I can agree with that. Thanks for the assignment and I have to scrutinise and dissect the Epistle to Hebrews. I notice there was no Epistle named as one to the Jews, in particular. What could have been the reason? Best Regards Bro BMZ |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 04 February 2007 at 7:34am
We teach Islam and and discuss Christianity here, saomai. Greetings & Welcome. Qur'aan does not tell us long stories but the Lord Almighty tells us that Jesus was surely not killed. People thought he was dead but he was not. To find out more, we have to refer to the New Testament and one word stands out right there in the Good Book, in this statement. "They laid him in the tomb." All of us are all discussing Jesus, who spoke Hebrew and Aramaic, in English. We are also referring to the Bible in English. Had Jesus been really dead, it would have been written, "He was laid to rest, in the tomb." and this would have signified that he was dead. Hope in this case, we will not have to rely on Greek. BMZ |
Posted By: Seeker of Truth
Date Posted: 06 February 2007 at 12:38pm
Many beleive that Josephus' account about Jesus was a forgery,mainly because Josephus was a Jew and not a Jewish Christian,so his account cannot be taken to be real.
Peace Jerry |
Posted By: saomai
Date Posted: 21 March 2007 at 9:54am
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The Quran is no shabby book that you can take verses from it to support your claim like I just did with the Bible. Jesus said LIKE JONAH WAS SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE. What was Jonah? Dead or alive? You say no he was emphasising the time factor, well, did he fullfill that? Johna peace be upon him was three days and three nights, Jesus wasnt. What exactly are you implying about the bible? I don't recall anyone on this forum saying the quran was shabby - really we must treat each other with respect. Clearly there are great misunderstandings on both sides. I asked previously for someone to quote the verses from the Quran and then quote any hadiths and then to explain clearly anything that Muhammed had taught regarding this - so far not a single person has adhered to my simple request. And yet we find someone inferring that the bible is shabby.
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Posted By: saomai
Date Posted: 21 March 2007 at 10:08am
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[QUOTE=TRUUTHZ]
========================================== Ok - there is a major error in your comments. First of all there no 12 tribe of jews or no lost tribes of Jews. Jews are and were a singular tribe of the tribes of ISRAEL. Jews being descended from Judah. The 10 tribes that are lost - are the 10 tribes of Israel - remaining descendants of the remaining 12 tribes of Israel. =================== ========================== I have been taught that in Islam muslims anticipate the return of Jesus and consider him alive with God. Your comments are very new to me and very confusing |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 4:18am
| u R SUGGESTED TO READ AUTHENTIC HISTORY. iT SEEMS U NEVER TOUCHED HISTORY- THANKS |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 4:20am
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Also It seems u have not read my comments. Answers of all questions are present in my past comments for a person with UNBIASED mind. |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 5:02am
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saomai I have been taught that in Islam muslims anticipate the return of Jesus and consider him alive with God. Your comments are very new to me and very confusing -----------------------------------------------In the earlier times when the Christians of different countries entered the fold of Islam, they brought with them their old tales & legends abt Jesus; i.e. his immaculate conception, his wonder-working power, his ascension to heaven in this earthly body, & his 2nd coming to this earth in the latter days. These stories spread among the Muslims, & gradually penetrated into books & commentaries; & the Muslims, unfortunately, began to interpret the verses of the Quran in the light of these stories This fiction is by origin from Christian converts who brought these tales to Islam in old days. In Quran it is clear like SUN ON SKY tht Esa is dead Even AScend/Descend fiction was not mentioned in manually written oldest available copies of 4 Gaspels. Read the comments of a TOP MOST CHRISTIAN RESEARCHER as under: ONE OF THE GREATEST SCHOLARS of Bibles Dr. Constantine von Tischendorf, who aft having personally examined the original hand written copies of the oldest available Four Gospels hv quoted: �tht the texts for the physical ascension of Jesus to heaven or Jesus being carried by the angels to heaven, are lacking in these ancient documents. The texts tht are found within the published copies of the circulating gospels on the subject of the physical ascension of Jesus hv been added centuries later |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 5:07am
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ATTENTION: saomai Shaikh Zakariya Idrees Oseni World League Journal, the monthly organ of the Rabita al-Islami, published from Makka in Saudi Arabia writes: �Whatever be the case, the Islamic belief is that Jesus died a natural death after God had saved him from crucifixion. The stories of his ascension after he had been saved from crucifixion, which we find in some Arabic books, are obviously taken from Christian sources and should not be taken very seriously by Muslims with discerning minds.� |
Posted By: saomai
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 6:42am
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Who are you? You post in extremely LOUD and LARGE FONTS which indicates that you are SCREAMING. You have no idea of what my background is. You have absolutely no clue as to whether or not I am or am not muslim and yet you throw out insults like candy. Unbiased? I accept that Muhammed was a prophet. I am here to learn and ask questions and learn more. It is people like you that post with SHOUTING that make americans & others afraid of what islam really is. CALM DOWN and write in thoughtful manner - reviewing what you write before you post. |
Posted By: saomai
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 6:44am
You did not read my post. If you had I clearly asked about the return of Christ. You are so busy shouting about other points that you failed to see an opportunity to teach on the other aspect of the question. |
Posted By: amah
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 6:47am
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Truthz There is no threat to Islam. Stop posting all this nonsense , this is an islamic site and even if you shout from rooftops, we will not believe your misinterpretations of the quran. So don't waste our time. I will not waste my time editing your posts. You are spamming. Posting in bold/large font. I will delete your posts if they go against the guidelines.
------------- Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper). (Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45) |
Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 22 March 2007 at 9:45am
bmzsp - why did people think that Jesus was dead? Did he have a heart attack or something? Did somebody shoot him? Couldn't they even tell if he was breathing or not In any event, I think they might at least have phoned for an ambulance.....oh no, no need for all that, we'll just stick him in here, and he can have a lie down in this grave to recover
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Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 5:00am
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amah There is no threat to Islam. Stop posting all this nonsense , this is an islamic site and even if you shout from rooftops, we will not believe your misinterpretations of the quran. So don't waste our time. I will not waste my time editing your posts. You are spamming. Posting in bold/large font. I will delete your posts if they go against the guidelines. ======================================== I hv not posted my own interpretation of Quran at all. I have just posted the Quran's interpretation by worlds's top most scholars like Prof Imam Shaltut Mufti Egypt/Rector Azhar university. and translation of Quran by Dr Mohammad Asad. Even first translation of Quran appears at Islamicity is of Muhammad Asad. I have not added any thing from my own. so u r setting just blame and slander against me. what is punishment of slander in Islam? U know better. I did increase the font size and color to make it more readable to other readers. Purpose was not to spam. I donot belong to any political/religious party. My purpose was just to tell the truth to wise persons - that truth which is said by top sunni scholars. I am really disappointed to note that u do not have courage to face truth. Deletion of my 100% truthful comments show, up to wat extent u hv courage to face truth. I have just QUOTED what top most sunni scholars say. Instead of giving proper logical and wise answer, u hv deleted my comments! Bravo! u r a great person with a big mind! ------------- I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 5:17am
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amah For example, following are the exact words from Azhar University. and I have not added or misinterpreted Glorious Quran from myself. So how can u lay a slander against me that I am misinterpreting Quran??? Pls reply me to the point. Professor Mahmud Shaltut, former Mufti of Egypt and ex-Rector of al-Azhar University, Cairo, writes: i. "There is no authority in the Quran or the Sunna which can satisfy the heart upon the belief that Jesus was taken up to heaven with his body and that he is still alive there and that he shall descend therefrom to earth in the last days." (Al-Fatawa, published by Al-Idara al-�Ama lil-Saqafat al-Islamiyya bil-Azhar, pp. 52-58) ii. "The Quranic verses in this connection indicate that God had promised Jesus that He would cause him to die at the appointed time, and elevate him to Himself, and protect him from the disbelievers. This promise has been fulfilled. His enemies could not kill him or crucify him; instead, God caused him to die at the end of his appointed term and elevated him to Himself." ------------- I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 5:29am
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amah For example, following are the exact words from Shaikh Zakariya Idrees Oseni World League Journal, the monthly organ of the Rabita al-Islami, published from Makka in Saudi Arabia. and I have not added or misinterpreted Glorious Quran from myself. So how can u lay a slander against me that I am misinterpreting Quran??? Pls reply me to the point. I am not speaking from rooftops as u hv said in ur slander but I am just Quoating EXACT WORDS of a SUNNI Scholars from Makka Muazzma. Why u donot like that people should know wat top class sunni scholars has said??? Shaikh Zakariya Idrees Oseni World League Journal, the monthly organ of the Rabita al-Islami, published from Makka in Saudi Arabia writes: �Whatever be the case, the Islamic belief is that Jesus died a natural death after God had saved him from crucifixion. The stories of his ascension after he had been saved from crucifixion, which we find in some Arabic books, are obviously taken from Christian sources and should not be taken very seriously by Muslims with discerning minds.� ========== ONE OF THE GREATEST SCHOLARS of Bibles Dr. Constantine von Tischendorf, who aft having personally examined the original hand written copies of the oldest available Four Gospels hv quoted: �tht the texts for the physical ascension of Jesus to heaven or Jesus being carried by the angels to heaven, are lacking in these ancient documents. The texts tht are found within the published copies of the circulating gospels on the subject of the physical ascension of Jesus hv been added centuries later ------------- I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 5:51am
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Soami Who are you? You post in extremely LOUD and LARGE FONTS which indicates that you are SCREAMING. You have no idea of what my background is. You have absolutely no clue as to whether or not I am or am not muslim and yet you throw out insults like candy. Unbiased? I accept that Muhammed was a prophet. I am here to learn and ask questions and learn more. It is people like you that post with SHOUTING that make americans & others afraid of what islam really is. CALM DOWN and write in thoughtful manner - reviewing what you write before you post.[/QUOTE] ========================== 1- To make the fonts bigger with color meant to make it more readable If u donot like that I will not do it again. Actually I myself cannot read small fonts at my PC clearly. I hv a little weak eye-sight 2-I hv posted my truthfull comments in good faith and with full sincerity, for all brothers/sisters regardless wat background they have. Truth has no boundries. 3- I am sorry if i hv hurted u. My purpose was just to explain the truth. Though u have branded my comment as SHOUTING (thanks) but If u read them as a researcher u will find in them ONLY and ONLY TRUTH 4- SOrry again for any inconvenience I hv caused u ------------- I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 5:59am
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God Almighty has said in verses 2:132 & 3:67 of Quran (ONLY AND ONLY THE PROTECTED BOOK in universe by Lord) "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam." (Quran 2:132) Abraham was neither a "Jew" nor a "Christian", but was a pious Muslim; and he was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him. (Glorious Quran 3:67) -------------------------- All Prophets of Allah Azzo Jal from ADAM to MUHAMMAD (peace be upon all of them) have taught only one religion and that is ISLAM . But they r the people who named their dogmas with different names) ------------- I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 6:28am
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Ascend/Descend of Jesus (Peace be upon him) =================================== In fact: paradise is another dimension and it is out of question that any human (made of blood/flesh/bones - mortal body) with his physical body can go there permanently. Human can visit paradise/other side (if God permits) only in 4 states: Aft death, during sleep, when near-to-death, and when a truthful believer Sufi is in ecstasy. In first case, spirit is out of body permanently, in other 3 cases spirit (real person) is out of body temporarily. So a pious person/Prophet goes to paradise (With the mercy of Allah Azzo Jal) PERMANENLY ONLY AND ONLY AFTER DEATH. Died people do not return to this world as baby never returns to the belly of her mother after birth. ======== Definition of Truthful believer Sufi: Truthful believer Sufi is who through out his life completely follow the Sharia, sunna and Quran-Ul-Hakeem and loves and remember Creator over every thing else in EVERY TIME and in EVERY STATE. The sufis who go against the teaching of Quran, Sharia, sunna r in fact neither sufis nor even Muslims according to my analysis. They r some thing else. ------------- I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 6:40am
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If Jesus (PBUH) is died on earth; It, IN NOWAY reduces or degrades his prophethood or status. Even the Last prophet / Chief of all prophets / Best of Humanity Muhammad (billions and trillions times peace be upon him) was also died on earth like all other Allah's beloved prophets. ------------- I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 7:01am
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From relevant History: Besides, Some authentic modern historians also say that in fact Majority of Jews were living in Kashmir even in the time of Prophet Moses ~ 1400 BC. As a matter of fact the tomb of Moses is in Kashmir in EXACTLY on the place which is clrealy given in book of bibles called Deutoromy. Also we know very well that when ever in human history immigrants moved to other place they have named their names of new town same as of there twons in their past country. Even in USA and Canada reader can find its proof. for example most of british immgrant has named a city in Ontario canada "LONDON, Camrige, French people in canada has named a city PARIS and there are many many examples in us and canada and through out the world: Names of the tribes and places of Kashmir which are exactly Hebrew. I have a copy of two pages of the list. For example, one of the tribes of Kashmir is called Asheriya which is Asher, the tribe of Dand is Dan, Gadha is Gad, Lavi is Levi. The Tribe of Shaul is the Hebrew name of King Saul. Musa is Moses, Suliamanish is Solomon. And you also have the tribe of Israel, the tribe of Abri which is the tribe of Hebrew, and the tribe of Kahana which is the word for Jewish priest. ------------- I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) |
Posted By: saomai
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 7:32am
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PBS gave a wonderful lecture series/video on this subject and confirmed this notion of a few of the lost tribes being in this region and then goes on to name other areas there have been evidences of the lost tribes. Now if you could provide comments & muslim thoughts & theory & beliefs regarding the return of Jesus as this is something I have been taught to understand that the muslims share a belief with christians on. |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 8:20am
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I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) ========================== If any brother/sister is interested to read free online book "best ever researched book on the life of Jesus (peace be upon him) is suggested to visit following link: http://tinyurl.com/29hyta U will get so much authentic info with 100's of authentic references that u would hv never got before! READ IT AS A RESEARCHER AND A STUDENT OF COMPARATIVE RELIGION WITH OPEN MIND. You kindly read it IN FULL and u urself decide what is fasle and what is truth. Thanks ------------- I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 8:35am
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I am not sure but I think that PBS's lecture series appeared after my long discussion with them a few months ago. Before that discussion they used to not think in that direction. Any way I am not sure abt that. PBS is working for a great cause. |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 23 March 2007 at 9:28am
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I am not misinterpreting Quran niether adding anything from me nor shouting from rooftops my beloved amah but just quoting exactly wat a WELL KNOWN suni scholar has said: ========= What a top most Egyptian sunni scholar Allama Al-Sayyid Rashid Raza said abt the ascend/Descend of Son of Mary: What this famous disciple of Imam Mufti Muhammad Abduh (Egypt) writes about JESUS after survival from death on cross (Wa Ma Salabu): �Hence Jesus� escape to India and his death in that country is not against reason and sense.� (Quranic Commentary by Al-Sayyid Rashid Raza, part vi, pp. 42, 43) ------------- I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) |
Posted By: paarsurrey
Date Posted: 28 March 2007 at 10:01pm
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Hi Kindly let me know, what this PBS stands for. Thanks I am an Ahmadi � a peaceful faith in Islam
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Posted By: paarsurrey
Date Posted: 28 March 2007 at 11:11pm
Hi So, it is not the TraditionalMuslims only who are waiting for somebody PromisedMessiahImamMahdi) who would guide them on to the true path; the TraditonalJews are also waiting rather wailing for the advent of their Moshiach, as also the Traditional Christians who are waiting for the arrival of Messiah; they all commit the same mistake. In fact most of the religions have concepts of one of their Religious ProphetMessenger coming again or its second coming. This is just an expression of sentiments and has reality in symbolic sense only; not a literal or Physical one. They want to express that according to their own concept; GodAllahYHWH should and would send the DivineGuide; while that never happens in the spiritual realm. God would do what he thinks is best for the humans beings. DivineGuide He would definitely send when the humans would deviate from the straight path to put them right path, yet there is no choice for anybody except to submit to the Will of GodAllahYHWH the way he thinks the best, never according to the wishes of the misguided. |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 3:29am
| paarsurey it is in the sahih hadith that he is coming back, also the Quran makes it very clear that God did lift Jesus pbuh into heaven. |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 3:31am
| u mean u r a Qadiani? |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 3:35am
| Ahmadis/Qadianis are not considered Muslims by the majority of all the other Muslim sects. The Quran makes it clear that prophet Mohammed is Khatam ul nabiyeen, the seal of the prophets and the last of them. Ahmadis/Qadianis follow another prophet by the name of Mirza Ahmad. |
Posted By: saomai
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 6:21am
Ohhh that's easy - PBS stand for Public Broadcasting Services - it's just public television. I'll post that link here for you. Public Broadcasting in USA does many educational programs. I hope you enjoy this article on the Lost Tribes. I found it fascinating. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/losttribes.html - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/losttribes.html
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Posted By: ChristinaCris
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 7:56am
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Arab But during my study about Islam, I do remember that even many very high learned suni scholars believe that according to Quran and authentic hadiths, Jesus Christ is died on earth after surviving death on CROSS. If you need, I can search my books again and can provide you with reference of those suni scholars about whom i have talked. Arab I am waiting for your proper and logical answer- God Bless |
Posted By: ChristinaCris
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 8:04am
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According my info, the differnce between Ahmadis and suni Moslems is the last prophethood. Suni say mohammad is last prophet and Ahamdi say they hv another prophet after mohammad. regarding Ascention of christ, as i know, there are many many suni scholars and professors who say that Quran say christ is died on earth. and was not ascend at all. I appreciate if any moslem scholar can answer me. GOD BLESS. Please only logical and wise answers that can be substantiated on solid grounds. thanks all moslems |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 9:15am
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Quran: 004.158 And the Arabic is bal rafaho Allaho ilaihi.. it is literally. Also in the hadith the prophet said: Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (may peace be upon him) will soon descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses kill swine and abolish Jizya, and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it. (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 1, p. 92). What more do you want? Also the Quran states that Mohammed is th seal of the prophets, Khatam ul nabiyeen in Arabic is also mor ethen clear that it means LAST. Nottice, youll find no Arab who follows Ahmadiya because he knows the language and that its impossible for any prophet to be after prophet Mohammed.
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Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 9:24am
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Also prophet Mohammed warned of imposters who would come out of him, and he gave the exact number of which I cant remember. The guy Ahmadis happens to be one of them. He even said some bad stuff about other prophets! Another tradition states that "spite, mutual hatred and jealousy against one another will certainly disappear" during his reign when he returns (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 1, p. 93) and in yet another tradition we read that Surah 4.159, which teaches that "there is none of the People of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him before his death", is also a proof that Jesus will return to earth to receive the homage of all to whom the Scriptures have been given (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 4, p. 437). Throughout the various works in the Sirat and Hadith literature we find similar traditions suppor tiny the return of Jesus, another of which reads: When Christ was raised (to the heavens), he was thirty-two years and six months old. The period of his prophethood lasted for thirty months. Allah raised him to heaven with his body; he is still alive and will return to this world and he will be a king of the whole earth and then he will die like other living beings. (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 1, p. 47).
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Posted By: saomai
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 9:56am
When Christ was raised (to the heavens), he was thirty-two years and six months old. The period of his prophethood lasted for thirty months. Allah raised him to heaven with his body; he is still alive and will return to this world and he will be a king of the whole earth and then he will die like other living beings. (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 1, p. 47). == Ok this last paragraph that taught that yes Jesus is alive and with god & will return as a king - helped me to accept islam. To hear that many muslims do not believe this is so disturbing to me. I love so much about islam - I believe too strongly in Christ's mission to return to earth again via god's command and to have that view changed would accept my ability to embrace islam further.
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Posted By: ChristinaCris
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 10:00am
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ARAB you have not answered my point. my point was that there are many suni moslem scholars who say that according to Quran christ is not ascended. (here under is copy of some comments of other members from your own forum) for example: "Professor Mahmud Shaltut, former Mufti of Egypt and ex-Rector of al-Azhar University, Cairo, writes: ============= Shaikh Zakariya Idrees Oseni World League Journal, the monthly organ of the Rabita al-Islami, published from Makka in Saudi Arabia writes: ================= Arab!!! Now my question is: 1- Do you think that you know Quran and Hadith more/better than aforementioned sunni scholars of Azhar university, who has given FATWA that christ is not ascended??? 2- Do you think that above mentioned suni scholars from Azhar university and Saudia Makka are IMPOSTERS ??? 3- If you tell aforementioned scholars liars and imposters, I am 100% sure if I asked them about you, they will tell you a liar and imposter (sorry I do not mean this but I have to expalin my point). In this way the point will remain undecided. 4-Personally I realize that If you claim that you or your teachers has higher scholarship that the scholars of Azhar Univeisty; then your claim will be totally unacceptable to many and me too. During my university studies in comparative religion, I have read a lot lot about this subject. I can provide u many many references. but for the time being I think following one link will be enough for you and for other people who are interested in this subject. Though that link has many/long pages but is worth reading. http://groups.google.com/group/PZSDFTP/web/was-jesus-son-of-mary-ascended - http://groups.google.com/group/PZSDFTP/web/was-jesus-son-of- mary-ascended Please answer me just the questions I have asked and donot walk arround here there. God Bless _________________ |
Posted By: pauline35
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 11:07am
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Arab said : Also the Quran states that Mohammed is the seal of the prophets, Khatam ul nabiyeen in Arabic is also more ethen clear that it means LAST. Notice, you'll find no Arab who follows Ahmadiya because he knows the language and that its impossible for any prophet to be after prophet Mohammed.
Agreed. My conjecture is that Ahmadiya sees Islam as corrigendum based on his lame conjectural also so-called irrefutable evidence. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 29 March 2007 at 1:13pm
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The matter under discussion here seems to be about the living Isa a.s. and about his coming back to the world a second time to correct the ills of this world. That is not possible as it seems that he has died a natural death at the age of about 120 years. That is written in a hadith (saying) of the prophet Muhammad (in peace). Now please see this hadith which was posted by a friend here (perhaps arab). this Hadith also proves that the old old Isa a.s. will not come back but some one in his power or spirit will come. the real Isa will not come. Please see and comment:
Also in the hadith the prophet said: Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (may peace be upon him) will soon descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses kill swine and abolish Jizya, and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it. (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 1, p. 92) In this Hadith, the prophet told his companions that son of Maryam will descend amongst them. But he did not do so. Note the word "Among You". So, this word "you" means something else. Then it is written that son of Maryam will judge with justice the conflicting matters of the Ummah. He will break crosses. This breaking of crosses has a special meaning and not a literal meaning. Son of Maryam will not go around to break the crosses. Then it is said that he will kill the swine. It is also not literal. It has some other meaning which every one understands and it is being explained by the scholars in their books. It is hoped that Isa son of Maryam will not really kill any swine. He may never go near a swine. So, my friends, if coming Isa will not break any crosses and he will not kill any swine and he will not descend among the Sahabah (companions) then we are free to think about him. Who will be He? It is possible that Isa will also not be the same person who was an Israeli prophet of Allah. When we have translated everything sensibly in this Hadith then only Isa son of Maryam is left in the Hadith. So, why not we should try to translate that word too? Specially when the scholars are telling us that he has not gone up to the sky and that he has died a natural death.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: pauline35
Date Posted: 30 March 2007 at 2:22am
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Dear Minuteman, noted your second paragraph above is plausible translation. According to Buddhist, the Buddha Gautama did say that there will be another Buddha born again after him. Similarly, there will be another Jesus (perhaps) born again to this world but that Jesus will not be of the same look or same person. This means the messager will re-appear again. If we translate the Jesus as Messenger, we get the answer.
The messenger did not die but will appear again if Allah's message is not followed. Islam sealed Prophet Muhammad as the last messenger to disseminate Allah's message. However, it holds no confirmation that there shall be no more messenger coming to this world. It only deems neccessary when the time has come when people deny the righteous teaching of Allah. That will be the time for another Messiah(Jesus) to appear again. This time the Messiah will perform the miracles similar to what Jesus did. |